Doctor Doom vs. Michael Demiurgos

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Rules:

- Is used the version of Doctor Doom when gets the power of Beyonder Pre-Retcon

- Both characters are at a full power


Who win this battle for everything?

Miraijin
Depends on how will Doom use his power.

He doesn't have much control over Beyonder power so he can't play with it. He must go for a insta-win.

operator616
Yeah, doom didn't have full control over the power because of self doubt. At one point, he even subconsciously aided his enemies.

another important note is - while beyonder's power is millions of times greater than the multiverse combined (a claim which is most likely true considering that even a small fraction of his power was still greater than all of the abstracts including the weaker (back then) Living tribunal) he isn't indestructible. When Puma was empowered by the power of the multiverse, he was stated to be able to outright kill the beyonder (a statement coming from beyonder's own mouth), this is further supported when the beyonder has doubts regarding whether he can actually survive the destruction of time.

so despite the fact that beyonder's power dwarfs that of michael's, a multiversal power (like michael) is potentially capable of killing the beyonder (or any wielder of his power)

in this case, michael definitely has a chance. though ill still go with doom due to the fact that he has much greater power in his possession.

Mr Master
^^ Hey there friend.

Beyonder Puma's destiny, because Beyonder wanted to die.
Beyonder wanted to return to completeness during that time,
and in order to achieve that, he needed to have his form destroyed/killed.
Something he couldn't do himself for whatever reason,
so he needed an outside source. (like Puma)

This is no surprise,
he used Rachel and gave her the full power of the PF and more,
for the same purpose. (because he wanted his form destroyed/killed)
But he would never die, just return to his state of un-being. (Beyond Realm)

Let's not forget friends, nothing could happen to the Beyonder, unless he willed it:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16479065_Beyonder_so_Infinite.jpg

(a statement coming from Beyonder's own mouth)

quanchi112
Doom wins.

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Hey there friend.

Beyonder Puma's destiny, because Beyonder wanted to die.
Beyonder wanted to return to completeness during that time,
and in order to achieve that, he needed to have his form destroyed/killed.
Something he couldn't do himself for whatever reason,
so he needed an outside source. (like Puma)

This is no surprise,
he used Rachel and gave her the full power of the PF and more,
for the same purpose. (because he wanted his form destroyed/killed)
But he would never die, just return to his state of un-being. (Beyond Realm)

Let's not forget friends, nothing could happen to the Beyonder, unless he willed it:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16479065_Beyonder_so_Infinite.jpg

(a statement coming from Beyonder's own mouth)

hey,

Beyonder didn't want his form destroyed so that he could go back to the beyond-realm and be complete again. He wanted puma to kill him so that he could fulfill his role as a teacher (and thus achieve contentment even if it means death), here's a retelling of this event from secret wars II #8:

http://i.imgur.com/tQxndv8.jpg?1

"to fulfill my role as a teacher"

remember, at this point his role on earth was showing the other people their purpose in the scheme of things,
and puma's role turned out to be killing the beyonder, that's the reason he let (let in the sense that he wouldn't defend himself) puma kill him, not because he needed an outside source to kill him.

and yes, he would have died, he even consulted Death herself regarding this matter, spectacular spiderman #111

http://i.imgur.com/UVMD2LB.jpg

"i will be brought into your embrace"

i think it's safe to say that he'd die.

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

Beyonder didn't want his form destroyed so that he could go back
to the beyond- realm and be complete again. He wanted puma to
kill him so that he could fulfill his role as a teacher (and thus
achieve contentment even if it means death), here's a retelling of
this event from secret wars II #8: "to fulfill my role as a teacher"
remember, at this point his role on earth was showing the other
people their purpose in the scheme of things, and puma's role
turned out to be killing the beyonder, that's the reason he let (let in
the sense that he wouldn't defend himself) puma kill him, not
because he needed an outside source to kill him. and yes, he would
have died, he even consulted Death herself regarding this matter,
spectacular spiderman #111 "i will be brought into your embrace"
Yea, I remember we discussed this in my old Cosmic thread many years ago,
we were confused as well cause it made no sense.
Then we investigated thoroughly and found the logic.

Beyonder can't die. Only his physical form can be destroyed, if he allows it.

That said ...

The Beyonder definitely wanted to be Complete again, via dying,
or rather destroying his physical form!

He acted upon this three times in the arc, twice he failed, finally at the end he got his wish.

Puma = fail ... Rachel/Mkraan = fail ... Owen Reece = success

-------------------------------------------------------------------


So again,
Beyonder was basically tired of the Multiverse and wanted to be Complete again,
(Return to what he once was) but the plot was he couldn't do this himself,
so Beyonder schemed different avenues to achieve this goal. I mentioned all three.

Here,
Muramoto confirms this truth, after Beyonder explained to him his scheme:





"In order for Beyonder to fulfill his desire and End his incompleteness,
Puma must fulfill his destiny, kill Beyonder."

----------------------------------------------------------------


Here,
Beyonder himself tells us the same thing concerning why he set up Puma to kill his body:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16483594_Puma5.jpg

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16483596_Puma6.jpg

"I am the most powerful being, with a thought I could rend this Universe from end to end,
with a gesture I could lay All Eternity at your feet. Yet, something has changed within me."

"I must be Whole again. I must regain what I once was."
"yet, in order to do that, I must have Puma fulfill his destiny."

----------------------------------------------------------------

Mr Master
----------------------------------------------------------------


That should be sufficient evidence, but I like to leave no stone unturned.

So, In fact, this entire show was all about Beyonder returning to his Completeness.
Because Beyonder felt, that Was his role, to be Complete again,
to return to the Beyond Realm. ("be whole again ... what I once was"wink
It really was Beyonder's show tbh. He set it up, he was allowing it to happen.



Peter: "Muramoto clued me into this suicide pact you've got going with Puma"

Beyonder: "I'm tired Peter, I really wish I could get out of this, but I can't.
Incompleteness eats at me like a cancer ..."

--------------------------------


Beyonder believes if he fulfills his role, (which is to be Complete again
via his body being destroyed) others will learn from his example.




Here, again Beyonder clarifying that it is This life, This body he will lose:




Also,
evidently his entire body must be destroyed cause getting shot in the brain won't cut it:




Furthermore, this comedy is only possible if Beyonder allows it, heck, welcomes it!
(Beyonder is allowing this so much so he even stops Spidey from helping him)





Beyonder was literally disappointed when his body wasn't destroyed:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16484410_Puma13.jpg

"Looks like it's back to square one"

----------------------------------------------------------------


Yea, later on in another Tie-in Beyonder attempts the same thing with Rachel & Mkraan.

In fact, Beyonder gave Rachel the full power of the Phoenix Force,
in order for her to crack the Mkraan Crystal, thereby destroying all existence,
including Beyonder's body/shell.
And the reason was,
for him to return to his natural state, back into the Beyond Realm.
But again, it would not kill his infinite omnipotent essence/power. (what he is)



Beyonder: "You are what you are solely because I will it"

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16484515_Beyo_cant_die2.jpg

Rachel: "I was your catspaw, break the crystal, destroy the Universe,
it wouldn't kill you,
merely re-create your state of primal unbeing" ... (Beyond Realm)

Originally posted by operator616

i think it's safe to say that he'd die.
His life and body he created to enjoy the Multiverse would've died.

IF ... he wanted it that way:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16479065_Beyonder_so_Infinite.jpg


Beyonder's essence though, which = his sentience/energy/power would've been completely fine.

Like I said/proved, he would return to his natural state of being, and that is, the Beyond Realm.

In fact,
that's exactly what happened when Beyonder's body was destroyed by Owen at the end,
his essence/energy/power was shunted outside the Multiverse where it filled all of the Beyond into a new living universe.

Beyonder was finally satisfied:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16484601_Beyonder_happy.jpg

Galan007
Doom wins.

As Spider-Man and the Secret Wars confirmed, Doom was actually much more in control of Beyonder's powers than we ever realized. Ironically enough, it was Beyonder's power which gave Doom the clarity to realize that he could not retain/control Beyonder's power. In fact, Doom knew exactly how he would be defeated from the moment he first usurped said power-- and he'd come to terms with this defeat long before it ever happened.

Anyway, Doom still had access to power several orders of magnitude beyond Michael's. He should logically be able to defeat Mike rather easily.

Mindset
Originally posted by Galan007
Doom wins.

As Spider-Man and the Secret Wars confirmed, Doom was actually much more in control of Beyonder's powers than we ever realized. Ironically enough, it was Beyonder's power which gave Doom the clarity to realize that he could not retain/control Beyonder's power. In fact, Doom knew exactly how he would be defeated from the moment he first usurped said power-- and he'd come to terms with this defeat long before it ever happened.

Anyway, Doom still had access to power several orders of magnitude beyond Michael's. He should logically be able to defeat Mike rather easily. Fanboy.

Galan007
Phag.

Mindset
Stop hitting on me.

Galan007
Kay.

Mindset
Now suck my dong, queer.

Galan007
Ew, disgusting.

Reported. thumb down

operator616
@Mr Master:

no, those are completely different cases, let me explain this in detail:

in spectacular spiderman #111 puma failed to kill the beyonder, only then did the beyonder realize that he has no role in the universe and so he wanted to erase it.

beyonder's 1987 bio confirms this:

http://i.imgur.com/KMPfyZ2.jpg?1

like the bio says: after puma's failed assassination attempt, beyonder became furious and decided to destroy the universe.

that's true because that's exactly how secret wars II #8 (which chronologically takes place directly after spectacular spiderman #111) starts:

http://i.imgur.com/nty7JYA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u3ppgoV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TTRiTrM.jpg


now beyonder manipulated Rachel in uncanny x men #203, which takes place AFTER secret wars II #8, so it takes place after the beyonder decided to erase the multiverse, which is why he manipulated Rachel into destroying it.

while the puma affair takes place BEFORE secret wars II #8, the beyonder didn't want to destroy the universe/return to his primal state, at that point. All he wanted to do was fulfill his role as a teacher allowing himself to be killed in the process.

see the difference?

and even if we assume that if puma killed him the beyonder would return to his beyond-realm-self, this wouldn't work, why?

because beyonder could have merged with the beyond realm way back in secret wars II #5, but he didn't because he could not forget the other universe:

http://i.imgur.com/v5dOKXw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6kiWkxt.jpg

this is why toward the end, he sought to erase the multiverse so that it would fade from his own memory, secret wars II #9:

http://i.imgur.com/8Qj6k4N.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AoMWkSc.jpg

"he intends to destroy it, no ERASE it.......it would fade from his memory"

so only after forgetting/erasing the other universe, can the beyonder merge with his beyond realm.

tell me, how would puma killing him solve this problem (of him forgetting the universe)? ........it doesn't.

conclusion:

completeness has 2 meanings in this case:

1. completeness by fulfilling his final role in the universe/fulfilling his final desire.

this was stated in your own scan form spectacular spiderman #111, notice what it says:

"in order for the beyonder to FULFILL HIS DESIRE AND END HIS INCOMPLETENESS........puma must kill the beyonder

by fulfilling his desire (his role as a teacher) he would end his incompleteness

2. completeness by merging with the beyond realm/returning to his primal state after erasing the universe from existence

puma's was #1 (at the cost of dying)

rachel's was #2

so none of your scans regarding beyonder being incomplete or seeking completeness actually contradict what im saying.

and i already showed you evidence that beyonder wanted to die to fulfill his role as a teacher, not because of any other reason.


my point still stands, beyonder claimed that he could be destroyed.

http://i.imgur.com/qfBfFuh.jpg?1


and Puma's bio refers to it as an actual fact as opposed to it being a mere claim:

http://i.imgur.com/l9rQ0Xc.jpg?1

"enough to kill his intended victim"

after which he will embrace death.

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