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Scenario 1: Force Only
Scenario 2: Sabers Only
Scenario 3: All Out Deathmatch

Battle takes place in an open arena with no prep time. Which duo comes out on top.

2

Team 1 except in sabers.

Maul > Kota (right?)
Dooku crushes Marek in sabers and takes a majority in all out.

Unless if Marek can tactically deal with the two with his Force abilities instead of the fight diverging into 1 vs. 1's, team 2 wins.

Team 2 in all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Team 1 except in sabers.

Originally posted by Master Han
Maul > Kota (right?)
Dooku crushes Marek in sabers and takes a majority in all out.

Unless if Marek can tactically deal with the two with his Force abilities instead of the fight diverging into 1 vs. 1's, team 2 wins.

Dooku no way crushes Marek. Mareks lightsaber prowess is 'near perfect' and he's more powerful than Dooku is in the Force.

Maul can't defeat Kota that easily. Kota is a badass and will last longer than Dooku would against Marek. He's comparable in terms of TK:

-FuLUwPkyQs

and can block lightning with his bare hands. Maul isn't pwning him with the Force.

Team 1 wins because of Galen Motherf*cking Marek.

Which Maul is this??!.

If its TPM Maul then Galen/Kota forsure.

That his skills are ''near perfect'' is irrelevant when we see him struggle with Ti, Kota, Brood and pre-prime Vader.

That just makes those guys good.

Which is meaningless as Maul has beaten Vader, and Dooku has beaten Grievous whom destroyed Shaak Ti.

Resurrected Maul =/= Real Maul.*

TFU Shaak Ti =/= CW Shaak Ti.

Besides, Marek won those fights.

* he has real legs for one thing, lol.

lol. Just changes the way he fights, not his skills.

I meant more literally, we don't know if they are actually the same person. It is unknown whether that Maul was created through cloning techniques, or through other means. The Prophets themselves stated that "there are techniques to mold a being in every way." So who knows, but that Maul can't be said to be equivalent to the real one with certainty.

Uh, unless you've proof that there's a difference...

Let's do it another way: ANH Vader and ANH Kenobi were complete equals. Maul is better than ANH Kenobi.

You're the one claiming it shows that Mareks below Maul, its your job to prove that claim.

Vader diminished from TFU to that point. Also lolwut?

Team 2, Kota is the weakest link.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're the one claiming it shows that Mareks below Maul, its your job to prove that claim.

Vader diminished from TFU to that point. Also lolwut?
Maul beat up Vader pretty bad, whom Marek only roughly stalemated.

No he didn't?

Yeah why would Vader's power diminsh in a couple of years from TFU to ANH?

Also clones can be different, but there's no reason to believe Maul's clone was actually more powerful than TCW Maul. It actually seemed the writer's intention was for the clone to be a carbon copy of TPM Maul.

Yeah. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Vader say that Marek's clone shared the same strengths and weaknesses of the original Marek?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which is meaningless as Maul has beaten Vader, and Dooku has beaten Grievous whom destroyed Shaak Ti.

1. Leland Chee has suggested that the Maul clone fiasco may have been a Force vision or something esoteric.

2. RotJ Vader is more powerful than he'd ever been.

3. Has Grievous fought Shaak Ti beyond the retconned 2003 series?

1. What?

2. I'm well aware.

3. No.

Galen Marek is a beast. He could take on either of team 2's combatants individually all-out. I'm not entirely familiar with his skill with a lightsaber other than it being described as "near perfect", though.

All-out, this goes to team 1. Sabers, not sure.

Galen also beat Vader in lightsabers.

When did this happen?

I thought he beat him all-out. At least that's what I remember about the game.

In the 1st novel.

'"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.'

After that he pwns him with the Force, but its apparent from the above that he's better than Vader in lightsabers too. Theres also a bit in the game where he owns him in lightsabers.

Marek mused they fought as equals IIRC.

Hitting your opponent 4 times in rapid succession does not demonstrate parity in my book.

That doesn't by any means demonstrate equality. Galen was clearly beating Vader. So, he's at least Vader-level saberwise.

But then the clone in TFU II could not get the edge over Vader at all in Sabers.

So either clones suck in comparison to Originals, or Vader was better prepared for Galan in TFU II.

Vader held back massively in TFU 2.

Did he?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Vader held back massively in TFU 2.

Evidence?

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested.

-The Force Unleashed II

Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest.

-The Force Unleashed II

Nonetheless, he's certainly trying to kill him by the end, when hes throwing his lightsaber at a dangling Starkiller.

As I said, he's at least Vader level saberwise. Which is considerable, and when you add his ridiculous Force abilites to the mix, Marek's very impressive and certainly capable of defeating Dooku and Maul.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Marek's very impressive and certainly capable of defeating Dooku and Maul.

Dooku and Maul Together?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku and Maul Together?

If you go by feats alone. But if you power scale (and you really should), then hell no.

Marek can't defeat them by feats alone either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku and Maul Together?

Separately.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Marek can't defeat them by feats alone either.

Yes he can.

In TFU2 novel, he withstands atmospheric reentry on Kamino, roots himself to and guides a mortally injured Nebulon-B frigate, and then disintegrates it on the fly when Vader uses Juno as a shield.

That's so far above Dooku and Maul's feats it's not even funny.

Which is irrelevant when we see him struggling massively with Vader.

Based on feats alone, he can defeat either of them separately.

He struggled in TFU2. The other time they fought he beat the living shit out of him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which is irrelevant when we see him struggling massively with Vader.

Which is irrelevant because I said feats, of which the one I just cited is one, and may only prove that Vader is of comparable strength.

Until Dooku and Maul slug it out on fairly even terms with a guy who generates power of that magnitude, Marek has the feats squarely on his side.

And his fight against Vader is a ''feat'' as well.

Who beat who in TFU2?

Marek beat him. Again.

Exactly my point.

I think Kota could hold his own against Maul long enough for Marek to defeat Dooku.

no

Originally posted by bayhunter12
I think Kota could hold his own against Maul long enough for Marek to defeat Dooku.

Agreed.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
I think Kota could hold his own against Maul long enough for Marek to defeat Dooku.

I think Kota mightbeable to beat TPM Maul and give CW Maul a nice fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which is irrelevant when we see him struggling massively with Vader.

Which is why Tempest was talking about power scaling instead of just going by feats I believe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Marek beat him. Again.

Well he suckered him with a FL shot through a wound which Juno made.

But in terms of one on one fair Lightsaber and force combat they fought as equals in TFUII.

I disagree with that notion. Feats>anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which is why Tempest was talking about power scaling instead of just going by feats I believe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the 1st novel.

'"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.'

After that he pwns him with the Force, but its apparent from the above that he's better than Vader in lightsabers too. Theres also a bit in the game where he owns him in lightsabers. Impressive.

Kota's still a weak link.

Kota's a weak link, but should hold his own for longer then 20 seconds against either of these guys. Galen should take either of them in force.

Galen outclasses anybody on team 2 by a wide margin in the Force and both as overall combatants. Rahm can tango with Maul or Dooku long enough for Galen to end Dooku.

Dooku solos.

In no possible universe.

Dooku doesn't solo. And even if he could, the Stormtrooper-tier combatant that is Darth Maul ends up accidentally getting in the way.

Against guys who struggle with Shadow Guards, I think he will.

Team 2, Rahm is a weak link.

I don't recall a struggle... Although Galen had trouble beating a simulation Jedi Padawans beat. mmm

Dear God, TFU is so inconsistent with how they portray their characters.

The fact that you buy into Ziggy's ( a known troll ) spiel and that you rate a character's combative capabilities off their rank rather then demonstrated feats tells everybody all they need to know about you and your opinions.

U btr be talkin' to Az, u lil' cretin.

Originally posted by MythLord
I don't recall a struggle... Although Galen had trouble beating a simulation Jedi Padawans beat. mmm

Dear God, TFU is so inconsistent with how they portray their characters.

Galen only ever faced the simulations in the game and the difficult he had defeating these simulations is unknown as the actual fight is gameplay only.

Originally posted by MythLord
U btr be talkin' to Az, u lil' cretin.

Wat if i ain't bb?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Galen only ever faced the simulations in the game and the difficult he had defeating these simulations is unknown as the actual fight is gameplay only.

It's apparently scripted that the dude knocks him on his arse, so... Nah, I'm kidding, but TFU can be inconsistent at times.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Wat if i ain't bb?

An slaughter timing.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Galen only ever faced the simulations in the game and the difficult he had defeating these simulations is unknown as the actual fight is gameplay only. Also unconfirmed, but I think the simulations are scaled down for each Padawan.

Desolous himself seems like a guy that wouldn't be defeated by any Padawan, even the best ones.

So I think Vader scaled it himself or had someone scale it to Galen's skill level.

Again, unconfirmed, but I doubt a random Jedi Padawan is > Rahm Kota.

Originally posted by MythLord
It's apparently scripted that the dude knocks him on his arse, so... Nah, I'm kidding, but TFU can be inconsistent at times.



An slaughter timing.

Yep.

To move on from this earthly plane would be a pleasure.

Kota got one-shotted by Boba Fett.

Granted, this scales down Ti, but we can work around that by saying it wasn't actually Ti, it was her twin sister Shank who gets shanked.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
To move on from this earthly plane would be a pleasure.

With KMC being a thing, I completely understand.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Also unconfirmed, but I think the simulations are scaled down for each Padawan.

Desolous himself seems like a guy that wouldn't be defeated by any Padawan, even the best ones.

So I think Vader scaled it himself or had someone scale it to Galen's skill level.

Unconfirmed, but I doubt a random Jedi Padawan is > Rahm Kota.

What is unconfirmed?

Of course. Somebody who slaughters over a thousand Jedi would not fall to random joe shmoe padawans.

Unlikely given the Jedi Temple was being guarded by Imperial security and it would've been a stupid risk to take if Sidious found out Vader was tampering with the Temple's simulations for some reason and had gotten curious.

*Rolls eyes* No need to state the obvious Jman.

Originally posted by MythLord
Kota got one-shotted by Boba Fett.

Granted, this scales down Ti, but we can work around that by saying it wasn't actually Ti, it was her twin sister Shank who gets shanked.

Shank is such skank. Letting any random dudes stick their lightsabers in her.

Wait, what if, the thousand Jedi he slaughtered were unimpressive padawans or fodder and maybe, just maybe(now hear me out on this) he did it with his amazing Sith army, or a couple after a couple ala Meetra Surik or Tulak Hord?

In which case, if he can only slaughter the really unimpressive padawans, a top tier padawan can beat him.

Tru.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The fact that you buy into Ziggy's ( a known troll ) spiel and that you rate a character's combative capabilities off their rank rather then demonstrated feats tells everybody all they need to know about you and your opinions.

It's true though, and I noticed you have not yet responded to the lubing on our Ti vs Ventress palaver. Anyway, I ultimately agree with Az, Dooku solos this. Rham is nothing to him, so a quick Force incapacitation while he staves off Galen is totally possible - just look at the fight aboard the invisible hand where he does this to a vastly superior duo. After that, he can just dismantle Whailen with swordmaster fninese that exceeds a Shadowgaurd.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
palaver

I'd ask that you not tarnish this sacred word with your foul breath.

Originally posted by MythLord
Wait, what if, the thousand Jedi he slaughtered were unimpressive padawans or fodder and maybe, just maybe(now hear me out on this) he did it with his amazing Sith army, or a couple after a couple ala Meetra Surik or Tulak Hord?

In which case, if he can only slaughter the really unimpressive padawans, a top tier padawan can beat him. I dont believe AOTC Anakin is > 1000 Fodder Padawans.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'd ask that you not tarnish this sacred word with your foul breath.

If you wish to respond to our plalaver, perhaps you can tell me why Flailen wins here, or at least why he shouldn't be scaled off nameless opponents when the best achievements of his adversaries are as follows :

Rham Kota - Getting beaten by Boba Fett
Kazdan Paratus - nothing
Shaak Ti - Getting stomped and hospitalised by Grievous
Darth Desolus Simulation - Getting beaten by Padawans
Maris Brood - Nothing
Vader - Stalemating Old Ben Kenobi

Originally posted by MythLord
Wait, what if, the thousand Jedi he slaughtered were unimpressive padawans or fodder and maybe, just maybe(now hear me out on this) he did it with his amazing Sith army, or a couple after a couple ala Meetra Surik or Tulak Hord?

In which case, if he can only slaughter the really unimpressive padawans, a top tier padawan can beat him. But it also included the Jedi Council, so yeh.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
If you wish to respond to our plalaver, perhaps you can tell me why Flailen wins here, or at least why he shouldn't be scaled off nameless opponents when the best achievements of his adversaries are as follows :

Rham Kota - Getting beaten by Boba Fett
Kazdan Paratus - nothing
Shaak Ti - Getting stomped and hospitalised by Grievous
Darth Desolus Simulation - Getting beaten by Padawans
Maris Brood - Nothing
Vader - Stalemating Old Ben Kenobi Why is stalemating Ben Kenobi unimpressive?

Syndi, how old are you?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
If you wish to respond to our plalaver, perhaps you can tell me why Flailen wins here, or at least why he shouldn't be scaled off nameless opponents when the best achievements of his adversaries are as follows :

Rham Kota - Getting beaten by Boba Fett
Kazdan Paratus - nothing
Shaak Ti - Getting stomped and hospitalised by Grievous
Darth Desolus Simulation - Getting beaten by Padawans
Maris Brood - Nothing
Vader - Stalemating Old Ben Kenobi

Galen wins here because his Force feats and scaling place him far above Maul and Dooku as a force user and he's already shown he's capable of matching or exceeding someone on Dooku's level as a lightsaber combatant.

He can be scaled off those opponents but those opponents positions are solely dictated on their performance again Galen since that performance is their only showing.

You have to understand that listing a character's worst showing or trying to paint them out to be bad can be done to literally any character.

Vader? He slipped on his severed arm.

Sidious? He got thrown down a shaft by a one armed dying man.

Maul? He couldn't hit a man lying on the floor in front of him.

Dooku? He was captured by pirates.

And does that mean all of the characters I mentioned above are terrible combatants?

I was going to answer this rhetorically but I want to hear your response just to get a good chuckle.

Originally posted by Azronger
Syndi, how old are you?

Turned 20 about 2 weeks ago.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Turned 20 about 2 weeks ago. You're the same age as me now

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I dont believe AOTC Anakin is > 1000 Fodder Padawans.

At the same time, no. But he can take on group after group of them, with the aid of an army.

Originally posted by MythLord
At the same time, no. But he can take on group after group of them, with the aid of an army. I don't think he took his army everywhere he went.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Turned 20 about 2 weeks ago.

That's kinda hard to believe, given the way you start crying over fictional characters.

Originally posted by Azronger
That's kinda hard to believe, given the way you start crying over fictional characters. ...You're hypocritical asf.

Link me to a thread where I have started randomly insulting someone for their opinions.

Originally posted by Azronger
That's kinda hard to believe, given the way you start crying over fictional characters.

Given how defensive you get over anybody expressing disbelief at your stances I can understand your constant need to project.

Originally posted by Azronger
Link me to a thread where I have started randomly insulting someone for their opinions.

Learn to take a like you take a dick or get off KMC. Nobody's going to hold back to spare your wittle feewings.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I don't think he took his army everywhere he went.

So if you have an army, and you're about to fight a massive horde of lightsaber wielding beings... you wouldn't take that army with you?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Galen wins here because his Force feats and scaling place him far above Maul and Dooku

The scaling stratum of Force feats based around telekinesis on inanimate objects or displays of the Force outside of combat, are rarely good indications of well someone will perform during combat, against another Force wielder. In the case of Dooku, we don't really have a defined limit to how much he can "bench press" with the Force. Yet his capabilities might well exceed Galen if the Korriban-Cruiser feat can be clarified. On top of that point, Galen has demonstrated far less precision than Dooku on any given day when it comes to direct telekinesis on other Force users. The Count's ability to sweep aside powerful foes while engaging even more powerful individuals is leaps ahead of Whailen's, someone who can't even penetrate the Force shields of am Imperial Shadow Guard. Heh. But more to the point, Dooku's foes simply have more going for them via both feat and accolade, and they exist in an arena where powerful Force users are in somewhat abundance, and not simply scraps escaping a grand purge.



Lightsaber combat is tricky to define across era's, usually some arbitrary ruling can be salvaged from detailed accolades, but in the case of Dooku and Vader, there's a very direct comparison to be made, and perhaps more than just one. It's simple, Vader could not breach the guard of an old and decrepit Ben Kenobi, while Dooku was doing fine contending with / beating Obi Wan in his prime, and with Anakin breathing down his neck too. The other case is this, Dooku handily beat Anakin in Attack of the Clones, someone who exceeds ROTJ Luke in both potential and training, while Vader in his prime, was matched by the latter an unable to pierce his Force guard in ESB.



You need to look up the definition of circular logic, and try and find out why it applies here.



Well I don't have to answer for Vader, if you want to shoot yourself in the foot by talking down Galen's only worthy trophy, than it serves me all the better. Otherwise, my response to you is this : what does it tell you when the only lowball-esq feats of the three characters mentioned, are taken from mediums where Force itself is depicted to be more subtle, where the writers have illicitly stated their desire to scale things back? An then you have the Force Unleashed, where the polar opposite is the case, and yet, Galen still gets slapped by randomers, for a reason maybe?

Originally posted by MythLord
So if you have an army, and you're about to fight a massive horde of lightsaber wielding beings... you wouldn't take that army with you? He didn't know he was about to be ambushed tho. Of course I would, but Desolous has personally killed at least a thousand Jedi of his own hand.

Originally posted by Azronger
Link me to a thread where I have started randomly insulting someone for their opinions. Link me to a thread where Syn has done that?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The scaling stratum of Force feats based around telekinesis on inanimate objects or displays of the Force outside of combat, are rarely good indications of well someone will perform during combat, against another Force wielder. In the case of Dooku, we don't really have a defined limit to how much he can "bench press" with the Force. Yet his capabilities might well exceed Galen if the Korriban-Cruiser feat can be clarified. On top of that point, Galen has demonstrated far less precision than Dooku on any given day when it comes to direct telekinesis on other Force users. The Count's ability to sweep aside powerful foes while engaging even more powerful individuals is leaps ahead of Whailen's, someone who can't even penetrate the Force shields of am Imperial Shadow Guard. Heh. But more to the point, Dooku's foes simply have more going for them via both feat and accolade, and they exist in an arena where powerful Force users are in somewhat abundance, and not simply scraps escaping a grand purge.



Lightsaber combat is tricky to define across era's, usually some arbitrary ruling can be salvaged from detailed accolades, but in the case of Dooku and Vader, there's a very direct comparison to be made, and perhaps more than just one. It's simple, Vader could not breach the guard of an old and decrepit Ben Kenobi, while Dooku was doing fine contending with / beating Obi Wan in his prime, and with Anakin breathing down his neck too. The other case is this, Dooku handily beat Anakin in Attack of the Clones, someone who exceeds ROTJ Luke in both potential and training, while Vader in his prime, was matched by the latter an unable to pierce his Force guard in ESB.



You need to look up the definition of circular logic, and try and find out why it applies here.



Well I don't have to answer for Vader, if you want to shoot yourself in the foot by talking down Galen's only worthy trophy, than it serves me all the better. Otherwise, my response to you is this : what does it tell you when the only lowball-esq feats of the three characters mentioned, are taken from mediums where Force itself is depicted to be more subtle, where the writers have illicitly stated their desire to scale things back? An then you have the Force Unleashed, where the polar opposite is the case, and yet, Galen still gets slapped by randomers, for a reason maybe?

1. I'm referring to his scaling off of his domination of opponents like Vader and ability to match opponents like Sidious.

Dooku's feat would still not compare to matching Sidious as we've been actively shown Sidious is capable of choking him from across the Galaxy.

I'd ask what you're referring to in regards to Dooku that puts him above Galen in control given it's been shown that Galen has telekinetically triggered explosives and force pushed sub lightspeed fighters midflight ( TIE's ).

Can you please elaborate here? As far as I'm aware Galen has never attempted to penetrate the Force defenses of a shadow guard and failed. Unless you're just assuming he can't because he didn't.

Given Galen beat an opponents confirmed to be superior to the one that beat Dooku you'd be mistaken in such an assumption.

2. Vader has been confirmed to be more powerful then Anakin and is more experienced and skill. It is true Vader didn't defeat Ben during the time that they had fought but that does not mean he was incapable of doing so had the fight gone on for a longer period. This doesn't have any bearing on RotS Obi Wan's capabilities however as Ben is confirmed to be more powerful then his RotS self though like you said he's logically atrophied in skill and physical ability. As for your Luke/Anakin comparison we know that Force potential does not always scale to greater growth as is clear if we compare someone like Galen and Anakin where Galen grows from stalemating Rahm to contending with Sidious and Anakin grows from losing to Dooku to contending with Dooku throughout the Clone Wars.

3. Circular reasoning: (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

Seems as if it's the latter case here given an opponent cannot be scaled as a combatant except off their accolades and showings and given they have none except for their performance against Galen that's the only thing they can be judged off of.

4. Who said that was those characters only low showings in the mythos? I'm saying that using low showings for any character to invalidate them is not an unbiased or logical way to assess said characters.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He didn't know he was about to be ambushed tho. Of course I would, but Desolous has personally killed at least a thousand Jedi of his own hand.

Did a thousand Jedi just suddenly ambush him? And they can ambush him if he had an army near him.

Originally posted by MythLord
Did a thousand Jedi just suddenly ambush him? And they can ambush him if he had an army near him. Basically what they said, yeah.

They said a Huge Jedi Fleet set a trap for him in a disadvantageous position.

And even if there are doubts, you gotta scale him off his simulation, which, no doubt, should be far weaker then he himself is.

Please allow me to take lead on the numbering of points, it will make for much easier reading, as I can actually format this palaver with a semblance of aesthetes.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. I'm referring to his scaling off of his domination of opponents like Vader and ability to match opponents like Sidious.

1) What feats are we speaking of here? What domination? What matching? What distorted lens is the source material being viewed in where the occurring events don't materialise in anything other than nocturnal emissions? The last I heard from Syndicate, as some call him, the unbearable, was an indirect concession regarding the use of Dun Moch and a lack of confidence in his opponent that won Galen, in it's most literal sense, a short-lived victory over his former master. A premise that is described by the text itself. Other than that, he managed to resist a Force choke, which is nice, but so did Luke in ESB. As for matching Sidious, I think the word is being a little bit stretched, especially when it's being used to describe an incident involving a Force explosion where an unscathed Sidious lived and Galen died.



2) Ellimist raised a very good point today regarding this leetle scenario, and it's something I have brought up before when encountered with a sophistical case of prostrated comparisons. It happens far to often that one conflates an example of telekinesis in combat with something that happens very far away from a battle. There's a difference. There's no reason to think that Dooku would be actively producing a Force shield to prevent himself getting choked out. In this instance, he's as venerable to telekinetic strangulation as Admiral Ozzell was in the Empire Strikes Back. There's little reason to assume he would defend against the attack either, and in any case, rebutting a Force choke from the Emperor might need a longer window than just a couple of seconds, where the emperor drops him. Really, if Dooku was so easily overpowered by top drawer necromancers, than why didn't Yoda simply carry him away in a Force stretcher or pin him against a wall in await for backup. As we've seen before, It really isn't outside his character morals to dominate people with the Force- https://youtu.be/QnZaNNY_arU



3) Please clarify, because I don't trust any of your interpretations. For Dooku, we have various instances where a wavered concentration would be met with imminent defeat, yet he's able to pick apart one opponent with the Force while holding off the other with his lightsaber. Take Sora Bulq and Tholme for example, either of which could be considered a boss fight on their own for Galen - given the level of people that fight him - while Dooku simply makes a mockery of them.



4) I know for a fact, that the tie fighters Galen has pushed, aren't travelling anywhere close to lightspeed, they are in fact, traveling no faster than 1200 Kilometres Per Hour, may I enlighten you to why that is:

By now the Imperials on the ground were calling for reinforcements from above. A trio of TIE-Fighters shrieked down through Kashyyk's atmosphere, stiching the blackened permacrete with needles of fire. He laughed mirthlessly. They considered that a solution? With a well-timed nudge on the lead TIE-Fighter's port solar gather panel, he sent it tumbling into the permacrete, where it exploded instantly. The impack shook the ground beneath his feet and sent cracks spreading across its face.

That gave him an idea. When the two remaining TIE-Fighters came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings. The fourth took so much collateral damage that it fared almost as badly as its siblings. Only one mooring remained.

-- The Force Unleashed

As we can see above, the feat in question happens on the surface of Kashyyk, and I even took the methodological time to underline the word of importance. The tie fighter's have entered the atmosphere of the planet, which means the ships are enveloped in surrounding gasses that will cause the them to set ablaze when traveling past 30,000 KPH. As stated in the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, sublight drives are only engaged upon leaving a planet's atmosphere and in space combat. Well anyway, now that I've demonstrated why the Tie fighters in question can't simply Barry Allen zip around in places that aren't a vacuums, here's the less complex explanation. It is confirmed in both Canon and Legends sources, that Tie Fighters can travel no faster than 1200 kph in atmosphere, look it up or ask Zenwolf for more details.

4b) Why would you assume that space ships are traveling around at relativistic speeds when their sole purpose in this excerpt is to provide backup to a singly located Space station? You realise the impracticality, nay, the impossibility of the scenario here? The answer to me is obvious. Clearly thinking logically doesn't always take precedent when wanking our favourite character.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/ea81db3e3551bb6e11cf89edcf7607bb/tumblr_mirb91ijMd1rmqgq0o1_500.gif



5) It is only implied by the comic, but if you're to fire up the Nintendo Wii, and I've mentioned this to you in arguments you haven't been bothered to read, Galen is unable to penetrate the Force shields of these masked stooges in both versions of the game. The Wii version states that their shields can't be penetrated with direct telekinesis - ergo - he has to use the environment to aid his cause, as the invisible shields only protect against other Force intrusions, not momentum. Which lines perfectly well with everything else depicting this little skirmish. Bottom line - fodder can challenge Galen.



6) Wrong again. Vader never reaches the types of accolade lavished upon Anakin Skywalker, as praised in various sources. These are both 3rd person and omniscient statements, while the only objections to this are Vader's own cognitive dissonance. A very weak basis for confirmation, as you so ineloquently state. He is a shadow of his former self; and no, that does not refer to potential, simple English is enough to invalidate that. It simply means he weaker than he was in the past. It means that the loss of living tissue and metal appendages make it harder for the Force to flow throughout his body, stifling his command of it.

7) And the time they did fight, neither really had the decisive edge over the other. One might be able to say that Vader was edging the tide slightly, but not in any significant manner in a way that Dooku would've retaliated to a stronger, and more skilled Kenobi. It's even mentioned that Kenobi's aged assault could have killed Vader. Not to mention the advantages Vader was opting in the stylistic department. He had knowledge of Kenobi's Soresu even before it's demotion, and he himself has fashioned a unique hybrid form that Kenobi has never encountered.



9) No he isn't, I thoroughly debunked your reasoning for this little idea. Like a rabbit caught in the headlights, you've yet to show any means to rebut it. He is again, a shadow of his former self in Force Power, skill and physicality. All factors included making him a worse combatant than AOTC Kenobi.



Concession accepted.



10a) And just to clarify on the Anakin part, he was certainly contending better with Dooku in AOTC than Galen ever was with Sidious, lol. What happens in between those years of the Clone Wars is a pretty drastic change in development, in the TCW movie, only a couple of months after Attack of the Clones, he was already stalemating Dooku in the Saber department and he becomes decisively better than him by the time of Revenge of the Sith. Luke is pretty synonymous with Anakin in this respect, as he goes from loosing to Vader with merely the basic level of training to matching him in a calm state within two years. Which is more of a reflection of Vader's skills, as a shadow of his former self. Really, ROTJ Luke should't be much better than AOTC Anakin, if at all.



Disgusting. The only article depicting a fight where Palpatine is genuinely serious, happens in the alternate ending of the game, a what if scenario, if you suppose. May I remind you what happened there:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/4567781-8487425888-M7isp.gif

Then this happens

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/4567782-4166537822-Q5vYV.gif



And when Galen is shit himself, that makes the few non showings his opponents have even shittier by contending with him, get my jist? What I'm trying to say, is that you don't like an analysis of Galen's preliminary boss fights, because it's a comparison that doesn't favour him. A quick glance at any of the characters he faces is a line of argument that end's in your defeat. Simple as that. And because of this trump card, it's a comparison you must not allow me to carry it to its conclusion, which is why you are trying to lead the conversation in a different direction. His ability to grab not-so-sub-light tie fighters doesn't make up for Ti's horrendous defeats at the hands of Grievous, and subsequence slapping of Galen. It doesn't make up for the fact that Random acolytes try him to unconventional methods when victory isn't imminent. It doesn't make up for the fact that Vader is a shadow of his former self, and the only reliable comparison we can make against the PT era, is one featuring Old Ben Kenobi.



The problem here is that you've chosen faulty proofs, what's worse is that the cherry picking is even less favourable considering the tree's they're picked from. I'm not the one making the argument for you, so until you can clarify with better examples, then there's no reason why I should agree with you.

Team two, Kota gets shat on by either of them.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
7) And the time they did fight, neither really had the decisive edge over the other. One might be able to say that Vader was edging the tide slightly, but not in any significant manner in a way that Dooku would've retaliated to a stronger, and more skilled Kenobi. It's even mentioned that Kenobi's aged assault could have killed Vader. Not to mention the advantages Vader was opting in the stylistic department. He had knowledge of Kenobi's Soresu even before it's demotion, and he himself has fashioned a unique hybrid form that Kenobi has never encountered.



9) No he isn't, I thoroughly debunked your reasoning for this little idea. Like a rabbit caught in the headlights, you've yet to show any means to rebut it. He is again, a shadow of his former self in Force Power, skill and physicality. All factors included making him a worse combatant than AOTC Kenobi.



Concession accepted.



10a) And just to clarify on the Anakin part, he was certainly contending better with Dooku in AOTC than Galen ever was with Sidious, lol. What happens in between those years of the Clone Wars is a pretty drastic change in development, in the TCW movie, only a couple of months after Attack of the Clones, he was already stalemating Dooku in the Saber department and he becomes decisively better than him by the time of Revenge of the Sith. Luke is pretty synonymous with Anakin in this respect, as he goes from loosing to Vader with merely the basic level of training to matching him in a calm state within two years. Which is more of a reflection of Vader's skills, as a shadow of his former self. Really, ROTJ Luke should't be much better than AOTC Anakin, if at all.



Disgusting. The only article depicting a fight where Palpatine is genuinely serious, happens in the alternate ending of the game, a what if scenario, if you suppose. May I remind you what happened there:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/4567781-8487425888-M7isp.gif

Then this happens

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127594/4567782-4166537822-Q5vYV.gif



And when Galen is shit himself, that makes the few non showings his opponents have even shittier by contending with him, get my jist? What I'm trying to say, is that you don't like an analysis of Galen's preliminary boss fights, because it's a comparison that doesn't favour him. A quick glance at any of the characters he faces is a line of argument that end's in your defeat. Simple as that. And because of this trump card, it's a comparison you must not allow me to carry it to its conclusion, which is why you are trying to lead the conversation in a different direction. His ability to grab not-so-sub-light tie fighters doesn't make up for Ti's horrendous defeats at the hands of Grievous, and subsequence slapping of Galen. It doesn't make up for the fact that Random acolytes try him to unconventional methods when victory isn't imminent. It doesn't make up for the fact that Vader is a shadow of his former self, and the only reliable comparison we can make against the PT era, is one featuring Old Ben Kenobi.



The problem here is that you've chosen faulty proofs, what's worse is that the cherry picking is even less favourable considering the tree's they're picked from. I'm not the one making the argument for you, so until you can clarify with better examples, then there's no reason why I should agree with you.

7. "Vader stroke toward the old man. As he drew nearer, Obi-Wan ignited his own lightsaber. The blue gleam of the blade flashed brightly.

Vader raised his weapon to attack, and Obi-Wan matched his pose.

"When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the Master."

"Only a master of evil, Darth." With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut.

Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike.

If the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking instead of defending, he was mistaken. Vader riposted, sped up his timing, and took the initiative, forcing the erstwhile Jedi to defend.

He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.

Obi-Wan twirled and blocked a slash, then wove a defensive pattern with his blade. The Force was still with the old Jedi; he was able to anticipate Vader's strikes and block or parry them. But after a quick exchange, Vader felt the energy shift in his favor. "Your powers are weak, old man."

Vader knew that Obi-Wan was taunting him by using the Sith honorific, but he would not allow himself to be baited. Obi-Wan lunged again, attacking, but Vader was ready. Their sabers clashed, sparks spewed, the stink of ozone wafted over them, but Vader stood his ground. The blades slid along each other's length, then stopped, bound together in the magnetic handle guards, the men face-to-face.

Vader shoved, hard, and they broke the clash. Obi-Wan retreated a step.

Another exchange - four, five, six attacks and blocks - and Vader knew the old man was weakening. The Force might be strong in Obi-Wan, but the dark side was stronger in Vader. It let him anticipate his adversary's strikes and counter them almost before they began.

Obi-Wan knew it, too. He began a retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved.

Vader backed Obi-Wan past an open blast door leading to the forward dock where the Rebel freighter was being held under guard. The old man was obviously tiring." - Death Star.

The passage you're referring to with Ben being a threat is this one I'm assuming?

But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.

Of course that's pretty par for the course in most lightsaber duels. Do something stupid and your superhuman precognitive opponent is going to capitalize on it and end you.

Vader heard someone call from the dock: "Ben?" It was a young man's voice. Still he could not risk a look in that direction. But Obi-Wan glanced away, quickly, then looked back at Vader. Then he did the last thing Vader could have possibly imagined -

He smiled.

It was an expression not the least worried; almost beatific, in fact. Then, still smiling, Obi-Wan lifted his lightsaber so that the tip pointed straight up at the ceiling.

And as the above indicates Ben chose to sacrifice his own life so that Luke wouldn't feel the need to come and aid him and escape instead. It doesn't mean he wasn't being beaten as the above clearly indicates, Vader acknowledging that a foolish move could be fatal on his part notwithstanding.

9. I'm sorry but I either did not see your response or do not remember it. If you could link me to the thread where you "disproved" this notion I'd much appreciate it.

10a) How is it a concession when I never asserted that Ben was as skilled or physically powerful in the first place? :/

The difference being Anakin had over a decade of training before his fight with Dooku. And you can't assert that Vader is less then Anakin when there are quotes that actively confirm his growth in power and the fact that he's grown in skill. Canon actively contradicts your claims meaning your wrong. And my comparison was Galen and Anakin who we can clearly see sports a superior growth in power.

Non canon endings have no bearing on continuity and are thus pointless to bring up in a debate especially when their validity is outright contradicted in regards to the canon events that occurred. At least from the perspective of a Marek who chose the Lightside over the Dark.

Except what you fail to understand is that it does exactly that. An character's ability is not based off some random on the internet saying "Lmao. They must be fodder and because a character performed a certain way against them they must be fodder too." A character's ability is based off their showings and other characters with established showings. It just so happens that every single character outside of a select few Galen faces in the game isn't an established character and can thus only be measured off their performance against Marek at certain points in the game and the feats they demonstrated in this fights. In Shaak's case decades have passed where her abilities have logically shifted. We don't know what form that shift would take and so we can only measure her capabilities as of TFU based off her performance which as most of us are aware was riddled with circumstances.

Why are my proofs any more faulty then yours? Yours were all either twisted with bias, without context, wrong or blatantly false. The ones I brought up were purposefully faulty to show you why assessing a character based off low showings is utterly stupid.

Rham Kota - Getting beaten by Boba Fett.

A feat for Boba and not something that is negative for Rahm.

Kazdan Paratus - nothing

Wrong.

Shaak Ti - Getting stomped and hospitalised by Grievous.

Without taking into account she'd been exhausted in battle beforehand.

Darth Desolus Simulation - Getting beaten by Padawans.

And Galen beat him as well. If I step on an ant and you do the same does that make us equally powerful combatants?

Maris Brood - Nothing.

Wrong.

Vader - Stalemating Old Ben Kenobi.

Blatantly false.

I wrote the response to the second part as I didn't see the first. Have to get to class but I'll finish the response to the first part when I get back. Posting what I have now.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Please allow me to take lead on the numbering of points, it will make for much easier reading, as I can actually format this palaver with a semblance of aesthetes.



1) What feats are we speaking of here? What domination? What matching? What distorted lens is the source material being viewed in where the occurring events don't materialise in anything other than nocturnal emissions? The last I heard from Syndicate, as some call him, the unbearable, was an indirect concession regarding the use of Dun Moch and a lack of confidence in his opponent that won Galen, in it's most literal sense, a short-lived victory over his former master. A premise that is described by the text itself. Other than that, he managed to resist a Force choke, which is nice, but so did Luke in ESB. As for matching Sidious, I think the word is being a little bit stretched, especially when it's being used to describe an incident involving a Force explosion where an unscathed Sidious lived and Galen died.



2) Ellimist raised a very good point today regarding this leetle scenario, and it's something I have brought up before when encountered with a sophistical case of prostrated comparisons. It happens far to often that one conflates an example of telekinesis in combat with something that happens very far away from a battle. There's a difference. There's no reason to think that Dooku would be actively producing a Force shield to prevent himself getting choked out. In this instance, he's as venerable to telekinetic strangulation as Admiral Ozzell was in the Empire Strikes Back. There's little reason to assume he would defend against the attack either, and in any case, rebutting a Force choke from the Emperor might need a longer window than just a couple of seconds, where the emperor drops him. Really, if Dooku was so easily overpowered by top drawer necromancers, than why didn't Yoda simply carry him away in a Force stretcher or pin him against a wall in await for backup. As we've seen before, It really isn't outside his character morals to dominate people with the Force- https://youtu.be/QnZaNNY_arU



3) Please clarify, because I don't trust any of your interpretations. For Dooku, we have various instances where a wavered concentration would be met with imminent defeat, yet he's able to pick apart one opponent with the Force while holding off the other with his lightsaber. Take Sora Bulq and Tholme for example, either of which could be considered a boss fight on their own for Galen - given the level of people that fight him - while Dooku simply makes a mockery of them.



4) I know for a fact, that the tie fighters Galen has pushed, aren't travelling anywhere close to lightspeed, they are in fact, traveling no faster than 1200 Kilometres Per Hour, may I enlighten you to why that is:

By now the Imperials on the ground were calling for reinforcements from above. A trio of TIE-Fighters shrieked down through Kashyyk's atmosphere, stiching the blackened permacrete with needles of fire. He laughed mirthlessly. They considered that a solution? With a well-timed nudge on the lead TIE-Fighter's port solar gather panel, he sent it tumbling into the permacrete, where it exploded instantly. The impack shook the ground beneath his feet and sent cracks spreading across its face.

That gave him an idea. When the two remaining TIE-Fighters came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings. The fourth took so much collateral damage that it fared almost as badly as its siblings. Only one mooring remained.

-- The Force Unleashed

As we can see above, the feat in question happens on the surface of Kashyyk, and I even took the methodological time to underline the word of importance. The tie fighter's have entered the atmosphere of the planet, which means the ships are enveloped in surrounding gasses that will cause the them to set ablaze when traveling past 30,000 KPH. As stated in the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, sublight drives are only engaged upon leaving a planet's atmosphere and in space combat. Well anyway, now that I've demonstrated why the Tie fighters in question can't simply Barry Allen zip around in places that aren't a vacuums, here's the less complex explanation. It is confirmed in both Canon and Legends sources, that Tie Fighters can travel no faster than 1200 kph in atmosphere, look it up or ask Zenwolf for more details.

4b) Why would you assume that space ships are traveling around at relativistic speeds when their sole purpose in this excerpt is to provide backup to a singly located Space station? You realise the impracticality, nay, the impossibility of the scenario here? The answer to me is obvious. Clearly thinking logically doesn't always take precedent when wanking our favourite character.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/ea81db3e3551bb6e11cf89edcf7607bb/tumblr_mirb91ijMd1rmqgq0o1_500.gif



5) It is only implied by the comic, but if you're to fire up the Nintendo Wii, and I've mentioned this to you in arguments you haven't been bothered to read, Galen is unable to penetrate the Force shields of these masked stooges in both versions of the game. The Wii version states that their shields can't be penetrated with direct telekinesis - ergo - he has to use the environment to aid his cause, as the invisible shields only protect against other Force intrusions, not momentum. Which lines perfectly well with everything else depicting this little skirmish. Bottom line - fodder can challenge Galen.



6) Wrong again. Vader never reaches the types of accolade lavished upon Anakin Skywalker, as praised in various sources. These are both 3rd person and omniscient statements, while the only objections to this are Vader's own cognitive dissonance. A very weak basis for confirmation, as you so ineloquently state. He is a shadow of his former self; and no, that does not refer to potential, simple English is enough to invalidate that. It simply means he weaker than he was in the past. It means that the loss of living tissue and metal appendages make it harder for the Force to flow throughout his body, stifling his command of it.

1. The only attempted Dun Moch on Galen's part ended up backfiring. He dominated Vader after releasing his hatred as is stated in the novel.

"The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued." - The Force Unleashed.

Both the novel and comic make it clear. Sidious and Galen are matching each other for a time. The novel by outright stating Sidious is desperate and the comic by showing that Sidious is incapable of fully blocking the lightning as it illuminates his bones.

"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations." - The Force Unleashed.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rl7UAeE41qA/VIxBBZocAjI/AAAAAAAGcJ8/VDWdcCfncCA/s1600/p1_118%2Bcopy.jpg

As for the explosion Galen's intent is to cause a distraction to allow Juno and the Rebels to escape and in doing so he actively lowers his defenses and releases a burst of energy scaled back so that it will not overpower the Rogue Shadow's shields.

This can be seen as the explosion is about to wash over the Rogue Shadow and its passengers in the comic and Juno and Rahm proceed to have a brief conversation before even taking off meaning the explosion would have had to hit them unless it was moving at the speed of a turtle.

Here's the text stating Galen lowered his defenses.

"
"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses." - The Force Unleashed

Here's the scan showing the Rogue Shadow about to be overtaken by the explosion.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WqBUJtt49TY/VIxBEBa1v9I/AAAAAAAGcKc/GTUmetRnlQg/s1600/p1_120%2Bcopy.jpg

2. Because Yoda is not as powerful as Sidious and would not to risk fatally injuring the Count if he thought he could capture him alive. Aside from that you have a fair point about Dooku choosing to actively NOT resist Sidious and I will mention that this little theory was first postulated by me a few months ago. As I said though his cruiser showing is not verifiable and thus his physical force feats can't be scaled up to Galen's level. Even if they were though that would have no bearing on Dooku's ability to compare to Galen in his prime ( when he faced Vader and Sidious on the Death Star ) only Galen as of Raxus Prime when he was still a Darksider and thus markedly weaker as we can see in his performance against Vader and even as you mentioned the non canon ending if we're describing any accuracy to it.

3. Bulq maybe but definitely not Tholme. And even Bulq pre Darkside conversion is iffy.

Galen is able to utilize force attacks midcombat as well and recover nearly immediately from deadly situations.

Here's the quote for Galen telekinetically triggering explosives.

"ehind him, triggered telekinetically, the downed AT-AT exploded, expending all its stored munitions in one blistering blast."

4. I never claimed the TIE's were moving as fast as say I did. I simply noted that the TIE's are sublight speed fighters.

4b) Maybe because I didn't? You tend to have this strange tendency to assume another's intent and then blow said assumption up to monumental proportions.

5. Quote? And even if that were the case it would only serve to make the defensive force applications of these Shadow Guards impressive.

6. Wrong again Ziggy.

Mark my words, I will re-oreder this cluster-**** you've presented. Also I'm disappointed with the answers for points 3,4,5 and 6. Did you simply run out of energy?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Mark my words, I will re-oreder this cluster-**** you've presented. Also I'm disappointed with the answers for points 3,4,5 and 6. Did you simply run out of energy?

3 was you asking for a quote which I provided. 4 was me responding to your accusations with "You're assuming my intent and you were wrong." 5 is me asking you to confirm your claim and then explaining to you that even if it were true it would have no bearing on what a prime Galen is capable of or be a diminishment of his own abilities. 6 was me about to post the quotes I did below but I had to get to class so I responded about an 1-2 hours later with said quotes.

What it means, Syndicate, is that a the rusty old Ataru offence of Ben Kenobi, is Vader's utmost limits in terms of what he can handle, and anything in addition to that would have seen him dead and buried. And no, this isn't par for the course lightsaber fights, that would be to deny a numerous list of stomps that happen frequently within the mythos. That passage is enough to mark Ben as a near equal to Vader in the lightsaber department, giving him some parity to Galen, and then there's the quote explaining why Vader only became truly formidable after finding out about his son's existence.



It is all in a post you have yet to address



Because when you concede to this point you concede to many others as well. It has a ripple effect. In this case, the proficiency of Ben Kenobi is the only accurate measuring stick to gauge how well ANH Vader competes with people from the Halcyon days of the republic, by your admission here, the answer is not very well. Unless, I don't know, you want to scale off people like Sha Koon?



It has plenty of baring to how the fight would unfold. Just because it didn't exist in the universal events as they happened, doesn't mean it's not solid evidence. Currently there's a gap in the data, and there exists no real competition between the characters of Sidious and Galen, the alternate ending of The Force Unleashed fills that gap nicely.



Umm, what? First of all, an character. Second of all, what?



Correction, t's established that they're not particularly special.



No, that's not things should be measured from a scientific perspective. Circular logic is always considered fallic. The principles behind statistical uncertainty, in this case, when assessing Shaak Ti's skills and performances, state that we have to take into regard all her showings prior to TFU. From there we have as four things that stand out. She got stomped by Grievous, unlike Kiadi Mundi who outperformed her in every manner of the word. She had difficulty against a single magnaguard, until exploiting a flaw in their programming flaws. She became exhausted after a bout with several magnaguards, and got godstomped by Grievous, who was using one-lightsaber and carrying Palpatine in the other arm at the same time. Then in Revenge of the Sith, Mace Windu passes her up for better combatants in the Pulp Fiction renegade to stop the chancellor. Her only renown within the context of TFU, is that she was a Council Master, compared to Galen's previous opponents, who as Vader so eloquently put it, were an old man and an outcast. Fitting.



My proofs are centred around an objective look at the everything the characters in question have accomplished. Yours were outliers. Let's take Dooku for example, he's rather well known for being the second best swordsman in the order, his hit list can be commended for it's credibility. He lives in an age where being the best is measured among thousands of individuals who could knock down his pedestal. For Galen, that number is in the double digits. He's left to fend off people who weren't particularly famous in the late days of the republic, if at all, and to top that of, demonstrate their combative impotency on various occasions- Rham Kota getting slapped by Boba Fett etc.



And mine weren't, so concession accepted. And now to address your whining with the manner it begs. Roll call.



Lol



Right



Lol



Lol



Right



Blatantly true.

Hope you had fun writing that.