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Both in their prime, who'd win?

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All out

Dooku, but not easily.

Yeah it's a tough one to decide, although I think Meetra probably has superior feats

Meetra does have some great feats (outside of Revan), but Dooku is still an amazing fighter and more of a known quantity. I couldn't really say she could challenge him in a strict saber or force fight because of that, but her feats on Malachor certainly suggest shes not far from his level.

The only thing i never understood was: If Meetra gains more power every single time she kills some1, shouldn't she be, at the very least, on revan's level?

Yes. She really should.

Yet she's beaten by Nyriss, who gets beaten by Revan in a most-likely drugged state. character ****ery at its best

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The only thing i never understood was: If Meetra gains more power every single time she kills some1, shouldn't she be, at the very least, on revan's level?

Not necessarily.

Originally posted by ares834
Not necessarily.
How so?

Back on topic, i think dooku wins, but only because his feats are more well known.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
How so?

Well we're assuming the no limits fallacy does not take place. Or at least some form of diminishing gains.

It was a way to explain how leveling up works in universe and in video games there's a level cap. It's entirely possible there's a cap in universe as well.

There is that and also the possibility that she didn't kill enough people to attain such a rank.

Dooku, rather easily. Considering that Darth Nyriss--An entity that is weaker than Dooku--was able to hand Meetra her ass with the aid of Scourge.

Yeah i'd say this is a bit lopsided, might make another thread worthy of dooku's attention

Actually, Kreia did say in KOTOR II that Meetra had been the greatest student she's ever had. Can't remember if she used those words exactly, but that line would include Revan, as he was his student. Yet, on the Revan novel Karpy ****s her character up like KOTOR II didn't even exist.

Greatest=/=most powerful

Especially when you consider Kreia's teachings.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Actually, Kreia did say in KOTOR II that Meetra had been the greatest student she's ever had.

"Greatest" doesn't neccessarily mean most powerful. Kreia loved the exile because she was the death of the force, possibly being why she uses the term "greatest." Although i agree that they made meetra seem like crap in the novel.

kinda thinking about doing a malgus vs. revan thread.

That would be a good thread. Make it.

Also--Yeah. I think it's just best to ignore KOTOR II completely. The Revan novel completely changes the Exile, and not to offend anyone--but that was probably a good idea on Drew's part. KOTOR II was just insane. 3 Sith Lords, one that can't be defeated unless he wants to be, one that can kill all life on a planet by speaking, and another that can strip multiple Jedi Council members from the Force with a gesture, and they were all defeated by this Jedi that can apparently kill the Force itself. It's ridiculous, and stupid.

Ignoring KOTOR II is my boat now, if anyone wants to hop on...

i won't, considering meetra had every convenience possible against them. examples:

1. nihilus was weakened greatly when he tried to drain telos/exile due to exile being jhole in the force

2. exile only beat sion due to dun moch

3. Traya's drain wouldn't work, same as nihilus's, and she loved the exile, possibly making her not feel as determined to kill her, like luke vs vader

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
i1. nihilus was weakened greatly when he tried to drain telos/exile due to exile being jhole in the force
hole*

But yeah gonna make a revan vs malgus thread

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That would be a good thread. Make it.

Also--Yeah. I think it's just best to ignore KOTOR II completely. The Revan novel completely changes the Exile, and not to offend anyone--but that was probably a good idea on Drew's part. KOTOR II was just insane. 3 Sith Lords, one that can't be defeated unless he wants to be, one that can kill all life on a planet by speaking, and another that can strip multiple Jedi Council members from the Force with a gesture, and they were all defeated by this Jedi that can apparently kill the Force itself. It's ridiculous, and stupid.

Ignoring KOTOR II is my boat now, if anyone wants to hop on...

I disagree completely. KOTOR II had great potential. Obsidian just made it not-as-good-as-it-could-be by rushing it and not dealing with plot-holes and such. The restoration mod was created because of this, and it does help unsatisfied people appreciate the game better.

Besides, it is canon. So ignoring KOTOR II events would be kinda stupid.

Dooku SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That would be a good thread. Make it.

Also--Yeah. I think it's just best to ignore KOTOR II completely. The Revan novel completely changes the Exile, and not to offend anyone--but that was probably a good idea on Drew's part. KOTOR II was just insane. 3 Sith Lords, one that can't be defeated unless he wants to be, one that can kill all life on a planet by speaking, and another that can strip multiple Jedi Council members from the Force with a gesture, and they were all defeated by this Jedi that can apparently kill the Force itself. It's ridiculous, and stupid.

Ignoring KOTOR II is my boat now, if anyone wants to hop on...

Hell no.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Dooku SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

Yah, how about handless Dooku against Meetra...? Just kidding.

Dooku fought well against Yoda (who was clearly above Revan's league). Meetra, along with Scorgue wasn't even a threat to Nyriss (and Nyriss is clearly weaker then Revan). Meetra is nothing for people on Dooku's or Revan's level.
She may be "wound of the force", but then Dooku is a "centrum of the universe".

Lawl, Meetra is not 'nothing' to Dooku.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
"Greatest" doesn't neccessarily mean most powerful. Kreia loved the exile because she was the death of the force, possibly being why she uses the term "greatest." Although i agree that they made meetra seem like crap in the novel.

I agree that 'greatest' does not necessarily mean most powerful. I said I'm not sure that's the exact quote, though. And there's no indication that Kreia only said that because she loved the Exile for being her ultimate tool. That's only your theory.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2059/img-45.JPG

Note that this comes in response to you beating her for the second time. Personally I think its obvious that shes referring to combat ability.

Yeah... The fact that she was able to defeat "lulz3sabersTK" Kreia, who annihilated three KOTOR Council Members with extreme ease, just after beating the living hell out of Sion for consecutive times until he lost his will to fight/live and cruising through a temple full of Sith Assassins and apprentices demonstrates she was in no way average, but highly skilled and powerful.

I suppose that's true neph, but u gotta take into account that kreia never really saw revan after the mando wars, meaning she wouldn't know how much more powerful revan really became.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. nihilus was weakened greatly when he tried to drain telos/exile due to exile being jhole in the force

2. exile only beat sion due to dun moch

3. Traya's drain wouldn't work, same as nihilus's, and she loved the exile, possibly making her not feel as determined to kill her, like luke vs vader

meaning that the kreia instapwning 3 council members feat is meaningless to meetra, since she used a drain on them.

It's not meaningless. Draining three Council Members simultaneously demonstrates a considerable command of the Force.

Wielding three lightsabers with TK is also quite the feat.

1. Yes.

2. No, she only beat him by actually beating him multiple times in a row.

3. Traya specifically says she won't hold back against the Exile. Plus more powerful than Meetra and on a potent darkside nexus. Even without her drain she was able to effortlessly kill 10 sith assassins at once.

4. Theres an edit button.

Originally posted by Nephthys
2. No, she only beat him by actually beating him multiple times in a row.

Yes, but as Sion stated, he literally cannot be killed in a physical battle, so the striking him down part is not as important as her use of dun moch, which "eroded" sion's will, and weakened his resolve, making him willingly let go of the force, which was the only thing holding his body together.

I suppose striking down sion is impressive, although sion is virtually featless in saber combat and application of the force, other than being invincible.

It might not be as important, but that doesn't change the fact that she actually whooped his ass multiple times in a row. Don't act as if her victory was only because of Dun Moch, it was just as much about her simply being far superior to him.

already addressed that it was an impressive feat.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I disagree completely. KOTOR II had great potential. Obsidian just made it not-as-good-as-it-could-be by rushing it and not dealing with plot-holes and such. The restoration mod was created because of this, and it does help unsatisfied people appreciate the game better.

Besides, it is canon. So ignoring KOTOR II events would be kinda stupid.

1. Well, it's characters and their abilities really make no sense at all within the Star Wars Universe, and have showings that are too ridiculous to take seriously. And then the game's protagonist, who can apparently kill the Force, is completely retcon'd in Revan as the likes that can have their asses handed to them by Nyriss.

2. True, however it's characters and their abilities hardly fit into the rest of the SW universe so it's just a headache all-in-all. Perhaps I was being over dramatic, but KOTOR II simply doesn't fit.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And then the game's protagonist, who can apparently kill the Force, is completely retcon'd in Revan as the likes that can have their asses handed to them by Nyriss.


That's Drew's fault, not Obsidian's.

I'd prefer to forget about Revan way more than I'd like to forget about Kotor II. That game made me seriously excited about the character of Revan and how things would play out for him and the Exile. The book just made me want to forget it was ever written. Destroyed the character of both of them and turned the really mysterious, intriguing True Sith into just a stupid generic Empire-ripoff.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd prefer to forget about Revan way more than I'd like to forget about Kotor II. That game made me seriously excited about the character of Revan and how things would play out for him and the Exile. The book just made me want to forget it was ever written. Destroyed the character of both of them and turned the really mysterious, intriguing True Sith into just a stupid generic Empire-ripoff.

Still, the novel was much more within the bounds of the set universe than KOTOR II.

I mean, we have Nihilus who can walk up to a planet, say "Hi", and have every living inhabitant on said planet die despite their level of power unless they happen to be a wound in the Force? And then we have Meetra who can kill the Force itself? (AKA: All life in the galaxy???) Traya and Sion are the same way. It's just so... DBZ.

Not really. Nihilus is the only out of place thing, but even he makes sense as an extension of the concept of force drain (particularly Exar Kun and his ritual). Meetra can kill the Force only because of shatterpoint and force wounds, which again is something that makes sense as a logical extension of the Living Force principle. And Sion is basically Anakin and that guy who lived as a head in a jar.

All of them are just things based off of already existing concepts in the EU.

It's sad how you try desperately to justify outlandish elements of an otherwise decent story. Let it go, my son.

'Outlandish elements?' This is the EU buddy, where sentient trees survive supernova's and Anakin Skywalker is actually cool. Sometimes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
t's just so... DBZ.

More like Broly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and that guy who lived as a head in a jar.


Simus.

When Traya said, "Killing the Force" I interpreted it as killing all Force Sensitives, and then the Jedi/Sith teachings will be destroyed, and no one will longer use the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. Nihilus is the only out of place thing, but even he makes sense as an extension of the concept of force drain (particularly Exar Kun and his ritual). Meetra can kill the Force only because of shatterpoint and force wounds, which again is something that makes sense as a logical extension of the Living Force principle. And Sion is basically Anakin and that guy who lived as a head in a jar.

All of them are just things based off of already existing concepts in the EU.

Nihilus and Traya are far too overpowered, nonetheless. So was Meetra, in her own right.

So's the entire EU. I don't blame Obsidian for going 'You know what, f*ck power creep. Lets just make the most monstrous dude we can think of. He should last a few years before getting out-wanked.'

The whole KOTOR II - Revan continuation was dealt with terribly. It's mainly the reason why Revan continues to be a character who we know is considerably powerful but cannot be accurately analyzed in terms of where he stands against the PT Jedi.

Yeah Drew really needs to make a book to show an accurate display of his power (not just throwing a lightsaber at some mandos and killing a random imperial guard)

Personally I put it down to stylistic differences? Meetra was portrayed in Revan as being a decided cut below what her feats in Kotor II indicate her at. But this is commonplace in the EU. Many characters underperform all the time. I'm not going to hold that against her or allow it to diminish the other feats she's done.

i'd say it's more than a cut below. Meetra has defeated foes that are arguably FAR more powerful than scourge (at that time) , yet in the book it says if scourge and meetra fought, the victor would be uncertain, signaling that they are about equal in power

uhuh

I'd say that just indicates Scourge is better than people are giving him credit for.

It does, but it also indicates Scourge as of Revan was more powerful than Darth Sion and Darth Traya... Which doesn't make sense because by that time (although already a promising and powerful Sith) he wasn't in his prime, was easily defeated by Nyriss and believed he wasn't a match for most Dark Council members...

WTF Drew.

Bluh. >_<

...So if Scourge and Meetra are equal in power as of Revan, that means the powerful Dark Council members (like Nyriss) are way above Darth Traya, and the Emperor is eons above any of them...

Scourge became more skilled and powerful over those 300 years as the Emperor's Wrath, so he came to be more powerful than the Exile.

It's a little bit confusing.

I mean at his first inception Nihlus' mask was meant to be made from the bones of Revan. So...yes she was supposed to be stronger than your KOTOR 2 character. But I guess because Revan's fanbase was a bit larger he got the highest powerup. (Which, being a Revan fan I always debated in his favor because of Kreia's statement that Revan was like the heart of the force).

As for this Dooku slaughters because of Meetra being retconned into sidekick-level powers.

But you can see it either way.

Meetra being pwned by Drew, or the Dark Council members, etc. being just that powerful... I'd lean over to that conclusion rather than Meetra being retconned. She still has impressive feats.

Exactly. No mere sidekick can solo a Sith temple.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Exactly. No mere sidekick can solo a Sith temple.


I dunno about that. I mean Garrus did become Archangel. (Someone please get this reference).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Exactly. No mere sidekick can solo a Sith temple.

Indeed.

Plus, Kreia did say Jedi and Sith of the KOTOR era were like "children playing with toys" compared to the ancient Sith... Ancient Sith = Vitiate's Empire.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I dunno about that. I mean Garrus did become Archangel. (Someone please get this reference).

I wouldn't consider Garrus a mere side-kick, either.

Yeah...... except that the Kotor era Jedi later stalemated Vitiates Empire.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I dunno about that. I mean Garrus did become Archangel. (Someone please get this reference).

GARrus is no sidekick. estahuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah...... except that the Kotor era Jedi later stalemated Vitiates Empire.




It was 300 years later, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah...... except that the Kotor era Jedi later stalemated Vitiates Empire.

The Exile likely said 'prepare for war' before she left. And Admiral Onasi and the Lost Jedi who would undoubtedly be a part of the new Jedi Council (Visas Marr, Mical, Bastilla, Atton, ect.) The martial nature of the order likely increased.




Shepard and Vakarian are the dynamic duo of the Mass Effect universe.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Exile likely said 'prepare for war' before she left. And Admiral Onasi and the Lost Jedi who would undoubtedly be a part of the new Jedi Council (Visas Marr, Mical, Bastilla, Atton, ect.) The martial nature of the order likely increased.




Shepard and Vakarian are the dynamic duo of the Mass Effect universe.

They're not. They only work together and they're also friends, but they're definitely not Batman and Robin style.

I hate that in TOR you never see absolutely anything regarding the Lost Jedi and how they reconstructed the entire Jedi Order. That's one of the things that really pisses me off about that game.

They should be considered mother****ing heroes by the TOR Jedi, there should be a ****ing statue of each Lost Jedi and the Exile, they should mention them often throughout the game and tell the tale of how they, alongside the Jedi Exile, rebuilt the Order from scratch. Instead, we get nothing. Nothing.

Just to rub it in, the cast of Kotor do get statues. awermm

Good. Glad to see the real heroes get statues.

The real heroes?? Mate, the characters from KOTOR II made the events of TOR possible. And they don't even mention them. That is just bullshit.

Yep. The real heroes.

Revan > Exile

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
They're not. They only work together and they're also friends, but they're definitely not Batman and Robin style.


In ME 1 they are more like Batman and Robin, then in ME2 he becomes more of a Nightwing esq character/ more of a friend.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The real heroes?? Mate, the characters from KOTOR II made the events of TOR possible. And they don't even mention them. That is just bullshit.

BioWare just didn't want to give them more credit then they had to.

Like seriously back when TOR was in development the BioWare mods were in heavy defending of ignoring KOTOR 2. They said since KOTOR 2 was a proxy war no one heard about it's not important.

Never mind the fact that the Exile started the new order...

Exactly. It was a proxy war no-one heard of, but obviously the ones restarting the order fought in it so you can't just ignore it, it wouldn't be unknown about afterwards.

Yes, the war is unimportant, but the fact that the Lost Jedi and the Exile where the ones that made everything in TOR possible simply shouldn't be ignored. It's stupid that they did, and it angers me.

As much as BioWare didn't like KOTOR II, they should've acted like mature men and deal with the fact that it's canon instead of just ignoring it and leave plot-holes that will never be explained.

They didn't ignore it. They made the Exile a ***** and made Kreia's spirit a slave.

The reason why the Exile was so poorly represented was that Karpyshan hardly knew a thing about her or Kotor II, as he's admitted.

Kreia's spirit isn't a slave though. Yay! It was likely intended to be her, but its never been confirmed and fuuuuuck that.

Originally posted by ares834
They didn't ignore it. They made the Exile a ***** and made Kreia's spirit a slave.

They ignored the whole "the Lost Jedi built the Jedi Order from scratch" thing, which made possible the existence of Jedi in TOR...

The whole plot of TOR is based on KotOR 2's "True Sith" though. Yes, they may not have referenced it as much as you would have liked but to say they ignored it is blatantly untrue.

Yeah kind of, but the True Sith were in Kotor 1 as well. They started the Mandalorian Wars, as is revealed by Canderous.

I always figured that was just a mistake on Bioware's part. I mean this is a huge thing. Yet, it's mentioned once and then completely forgotten about.

Yeah maybe.

Anyway, since I've chosen to ignore her downgrade in Revan after learning the reason for it on the swtor forums, I'm sticking with my opinion that she can at least give Dooku a damn good fight. She stomped the Triumvirate and the Trayas Academy while on the most potent nexus outside of Nathema and she whooped Atris' ass. She's got crazy skills, learning forms in minutes, becoming more proficient with telepathy than Kreia after a single short training session and learning various other abilities insanely fast, shes a master of at least 3 forms and 1 Force Form as well as another 3 of either and she has Battle Precognition and Force Enlightenment. Plus she has that swanky lightsaber crystal boosting her abilities.




Edit: "One of the single largest is the fact that before the novel it was stated very clearly that the Jedi she trained would become the main foundations for a rebuilt Jedi Order, yet in the novel, when she goes to Coruscant and sees Bastila it is made very clear that the Jedi already at the Jedi Temple look on her with disdain, a complete contradiction of numerous sources including the statement from Kreia that the Jedi Temple was empty and statements from all the Jedi Masters that none others survived the conclave on Katarr.

According to the Revan novel she was not the harbinger of a new Jedi Order rebuilt through her own devices, it was apparently just waiting for the Triumvirate to go away to stick it's head out again."


Wtf? Is this true?

Originally posted by ares834
The whole plot of TOR is based on KotOR 2's "True Sith" though. Yes, they may not have referenced it as much as you would have liked but to say they ignored it is blatantly untrue.

I wasn't referring to the True Sith, I was only referring to the Lost Jedi. They did completely ignore them.