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Caedus hate aside, who'd win?

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All out

Vitiate.

Other than in sabers.

Caedus is more or less Revan-level for me, so I could see Vitiate winning after a difficult fight.

Caedus

not so sure about the all-out round. force-wise vitiate's better, but saber-wise caedus is far better. meaning that if vitiate lets caedus gets close...

and caedus is more powerful than revan btw.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Caedus is more or less Revan-level for me, so I could see Vitiate winning after a difficult fight.

Same, though I do think Revan did well against Vitiate for his excellent defensive abilities, which I'm not sure Caedus possesses. He does have his own abilities though and can be a challenge to fight for Vitiate.

Also I think Vitiate as of TOR is more powerful than the one who fought Revan, given that he's snacking on Revan now and has the amp from Sel-Makor.

Vitiate. Not by a lot, though.

I still don't see how revan is equal to caedus

Sith Emperor.

okay, any...reasoning?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I still don't see how revan is equal to caedus

He isn't.

exactly

Agreed.


Revan would kick his pasty nerd butt.

imo caedus is the 2nd most powerful sith, with palpatine being first

haermm

Okay bro, you win. I'm no match for your level of snark!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Agreed.


Revan would kick his pasty nerd butt.

Agreed. I hate Cedus.

in all honesty, what puts vitiate ahead of caedus? caedus has FAR superior lightsaber skills. with the force, he can create near perfect illusions, use shatterpoint, lightning, and choke instinctively, memory rub technique, etc. in no way am i stating he has SUPERIOR force ability to vitiate, but they are very comparable.

He was even able to keep up with luke in a saber duel (although was overpowered by luke's command of the force)

Well Vitiate isn't a pussy for one thing.

And he owned 5 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time. And destroyed a temple, is capable of disintegration, can dominate minds, defeated a Sith Lord when he was 10, drained the power of hundreds of Sith Lords, drained power from Revan, received an amp from Sel-Makor.

Ruled an empire for 1300 years, defeated multiple Dark Councils, is probably the most knowledgeable Force user in the mythos, spread his power and consciousness over hundreds of followers and is still capable of soling entire teams with 2 attacks, is just better than Caedus in general.....

You know, stuff.

VVV

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
okay, any...reasoning?

Both prodigious and highly educated Force users who haven't demonstrated truly extraordinary abilities a la Luke, Palpatine, Vitiate, etc.

Just a rough approximation based on their many similarities, not a placement made with any exactitude. I put Caedus, Revan, and Dooku on more or less even footing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Agreed.


Revan would kick his pasty nerd butt.

I know, eh? Caedus may have monstrous feats and accolades, whereas Revan's reputation exists mostly on legacy and almost dying to six mandalorians in a shitty novel (note: Caedus toys with an equivalent number of mandos in beskar armor while also evading sniper shots from Jaina Solo and selectively saving and killing moffs), and, most importantly, he's an ancient Jedi, and appears in a popular video game.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Vitiate isn't a pussy for one thing.


Caedus, a pussy? He continues to fight with a ****ing limp arm without being fazed at all, and is willing to take on any swordsman in the galaxy except for Luke one handed.

Barring Sion and Maul, he has the greatest pain tolerance in the mythos.

where does it state he defeated multiple dark councils? i remember only one

definitely not most knowledgeable force user

mind domination most likely probably won't work against a being as strong as caedus

having revan give vitiate a tough time does not signal to me that caedus can't beat him.

he also isn't a very good fighter in terms of tactical thinking (meetra could have killed him with her saber throw.) there's a reason he's described as more of a scholar than a warrior.

Caedus also loses to, I believe it was three, Mandalorians and they only let him go because he isn't theirs to kill....


Anyway, Revan has plenty of accolades, many of which are superior to Jacen's, and he has his own share of monstrous feats.

I can't think of any monstrous feats from Jacen.

Some good ones, but only good.

had the most powerful state of oneness on record

took on GRAND MASTER luke and injured him (although caedus still lost the fight)

had a more potent version of precog, being able to probe the future

beat Jaina, the "sword of the jedi" in their first duel, even with luke lending her strength and even after caedus lost his arm during the fight

Bro, edit button. Its under the big red X.

oh and also he beat kyle katarn, along with 3 other jedi, in what, 20 seconds?

1 Jedi Master and 3 random Jedi. Vitiate would stomp them with one hand in 10 seconds.

i would say kyle katarn is quite a bit above your average jedi master, most likely being more powerful than any of the jedi in the strike team sent after vitiate. while i do agree that vitiate would defeat this team, i would hardly say he would destroy them in ten seconds, like the members of the featless strike team (other than the hero of tython.) maybe the 3 other jedi (forgot their names) but definitely not kyle katarn.

As ares834 once suggested, Vitiate would probably just impale himself on the rigid length of Katarn's weapon.

And then Kyle would stab him with his lightsaber too.

Despite knowing the dangers of the dark side, Katarn utilized the dark powers of Force grip and Force lightning even as a Jedi Master. In spite of this, he was equally strong in light-side Force powers, such as Force absorb and Force protection, which he demonstrated during his mission with Jaden. This, combined with a number of Katarn's statements, indicates that he could have believed in the Potentium theory of the Force.

During the events led by Desann, Katarn showed a great mastery of the Force by relearning powers of both the light and dark side of the Force in a relatively short amount of time. However, it should be noted that Katarn revisited the Valley of the Jedi to quickly restore his connection to the Force, which increased his raw Force potential as a side-effect. It is, however, far more likely that because he had used them before, they naturally came back, as in the case of Darth Revan, an ancient Dark Lord of the Sith turned Jedi Knight. Katarn showed a strong will, resisting the many taunts and mind tricks Desann used on him in the Yavin temple.

During the events of the Disciples of Ragnos Crisis, Katarn had already become one of the strongest swordsmen in the New Jedi Order and successfully trained Jaden Korr, arguably the most famous hero during those events. An extraordinary swordsman, Katarn became the New Jedi Order's foremost Battlemaster. His general mastery of the Force was incredible and surpassed all but the strongest Jedi Masters. Even Darth Caedus acknowledged Katarn's abilities, something he rarely did.

-wookieepedia

just a few of kyle's abilities and what not

Also Caedus is said to be far stronger than darth vader, who is stronger than revan, meaning that if revan gave vitiate a tough time...

Edit: forgot if it was just stronger, or far stronger, but they do reference it somewhere that he was stronger than vader

No, Vitiate would still own Katarn and the nobodies he brought with him.

Yes, as I said, he would most likely defeat them, but i highly doubt he would end up wtfpwning kyle katarn in 10 seconds, who is the foremost battlemaster of the new jedi order. If it is true that his mastery of the force surpassed all but the strongest masters (of his time, or all time? idk) regardless, the NJO was the 1st/2nd strongest order there ever was.

Katarn might be powerful, but Vitiate defeated 5 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy easily. I'm just not convinced that Katarn wouldn't get pwned.


Well Vitiate almost certainly has the most Force knowledge in the mythos. He's extremely studious and has had 1400 years worth of time to study the Force. Not only that, but one of the reasons why he created the Dark Temple was to siphon the knowledge out of all who are buried there. If you take that as indicating Force Mastery too, then he undoubtedly surpassed nearly everyone in that regard, if not actually everyone.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Well Vitiate almost certainly has the most Force knowledge in the mythos. He's extremely studious and has had 1400 years worth of time to study the Force. Not only that, but one of the reasons why he created the Dark Temple was to siphon the knowledge out of all who are buried there. If you take that as indicating Force Mastery too, then he undoubtedly surpassed nearly everyone in that regard, if not actually everyone.

He probably has the most knowledge of the dark side in the mythos. But of the Force itself? That's still Palpatine.

Nah, I still doubt that. 1400 years is a hell of a long time.

about the force knowledge, sidious is said to have mastered EVERY dark side technique, and create new ones as he pleases. while there may be some hyperbole, that doesnt take away the fact that sidious very well may have known almost every dark side power, plus he studied the lightside, something i don't think vitiate has.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, I still doubt that. 1400 years is a hell of a long time.

It is.

And were Vitiate's powers proportionate to that level of time and effort, I'd see your point.

But as you conceded recently, Vitiate (w/ 1400 years under his belt) is ultimately less impressive than a guy with about 80.

Palpatine made an exhaustive, concerted effort to study the Force in all its guises across the galaxy per The Dark Empire Sourcebook. Until Vitiate is confirmed explicitly to have done the same, Palpatine's still the top dog.

The ridiculousness of the statement makes it hyperbole.

please dont tell me ur one of those peeps who thinks palps is a weakling

Originally posted by Thor Is Girly
The ridiculousness of the statement makes it hyperbole.

I'll remember that with all things Vitiate.

The quote is ultimately worthless because it's merely a reflection of what "is believed" about Palpatine's knowledge.

Is that what you got from my post? lol

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But as you conceded recently, Vitiate (w/ 1400 years under his belt) is ultimately less impressive than a guy with about 80.

So far, maybe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So far, maybe.

You're so cute when you try to backpedal. Don't worry, I can quote you your recent post if you like!

Accept it. The character is inherently shitty from top to bottom and in spite of guzzling down the spiritual semen of 8 thousand Sith Lords and studying the dark side for 14 centuries... he's still second best.

Originally posted by Thor Is Girly

It's completely possible that he mastered ALMOST every darkside technique

Is that what you got from my post? lol

ok good, thank god lol

I still just cant accept that he's 2nd best

Edit: Caedus was considered far stronger than darth vader, who was 80% of palpatine, so it's very possible that he's equal to or greater than vitiate

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I still just cant accept that he's 2nd best

He probably is.

If only for the fact that he's so hilariously modeled after Numero Uno. Even Palpatine-lite is still Palpatine.

But his showings are fairly embarrassing for a guy with that much clout. And I'd forgive that if he were, like Palpatine, an iconic villain featured in a vast array of sources wherein the probability of low showings were high.

As it stands, Vitiate has been featured in 2-3 and is cringeworthy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're so cute when you try to backpedal. Don't worry, I can quote you your recent post if you like!

Accept it. The character is inherently shitty from top to bottom and in spite of guzzling down the spiritual semen of 8 thousand Sith Lords and studying the dark side for 14 centuries... he's still second best.

If it wasn't for the lack of lightsaber feats I'd trump him as being above Sidious.

i put him at 3rd, because, for all of his feats (which imo jacen has almost equaled) he struggled with revan, who is definitely not as strong as vader, who caedus is said to be far stronger than.

Revan was specifically prepared for him tho. Plus he wasn't at his peak.

Why wouldnt revan be at his peak, when he's knowingly entering the toughest fight of his life? it's like a boxer entering a ring with a million $ on the line, not being at his best

No, Vitiate isn't at peak.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If it wasn't for the lack of lightsaber feats I'd trump him as being above Sidious.

lol

true, vit wasnt at his peak, but he still lost to the Mary Sue of Tython, who doesnt have nearly enough feats to compete with caedus

I'm talking in all force powers.

exactly, and if u factor in force storms/hyperspace wormholes, DE sid does edge it out

Edit: also, about mind domination krap, Palpatine was able to block the minds of over ten thousand Jedi of his dark nature. This inlcuded the acute perception of Master Yoda, and the shatterpoint seeing Mace Windu. He was also mind-wiped the entire population of Coruscant.

Also he mentally dominated Luke Skywalker.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm talking in all force powers.

I know. To recap, you said Vitiate's powers were stronger than Sidious's and I asked you ROTS or in general and you clarified ROTS and that DE Sidious edges it out.

Now you're backpedaling as you're wont to do when pushed, Captain Contrarian. But your recent admission is here for all to see.

Your thoughts have been made clear already: you find Vitiate to be a downright terrible character and ultimately inferior to Palpatine even in the Force.

Anything to the contrary will be written off as hollow argumentation from the king of Broke Back Mountain.




lol get it? Cuz your back is hurt, foo' uhuh

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Edit: also, about mind domination krap, Palpatine was able to block the minds of over ten thousand Jedi of his dark nature. This inlcuded the acute perception of Master Yoda, and the shatterpoint seeing Mace Windu.

The First Son did this with but a portion of Vitiates power.

BTW, you never responded to my PM. You have 5 minutes to do so or there will be consequences of a sexually ruthless kind.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The First Son did this with but a portion of Vitiates power.

Proof?

http://www.torhead.com/codex/gCcMoCx/the-first-son-consular

So even better considering he's concealling hundreds of the Emprors Children too. In the Consular campaign the Barsen'thor can't sense a Child of the Emperor when he's standing right next to her and she's trying to sense him. He doesn't even have to be conscious or even in control of his body to do this, mostly he's sleeping behind the personality of Master Bakarn.

Who's to say it's Vitiate cloaking them and them not cloaking themselves?

It isn't Vitiate, its the First Son. And:

'Cloaked in the identity of Master Syo Bakarn, the First Son has been hiding the Children from the Jedi for decades, playing a long game with the Republic. '

2_VDKdLOtcI

The Child in the video talks about the Son at 5.00

I'll watch later. Teen Wolf is on. Here's to hoping it improves!

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This inlcuded the acute perception of Master Yoda, and the shatterpoint seeing Mace Windu. He was also mind-wiped the entire population of Coruscant.

Also he mentally dominated Luke Skywalker.

Plus i don't really think there were over ten thousand jedi in the TOR era anyway

Originally posted by Nephthys
If it wasn't for the lack of lightsaber feats I'd trump him as being above Sidious.


Why? Because of his telepathy?

Vitiate is more prone to attacking his opponents with telepathy, but that doesn't put him ahead of Sidious in that category. Sidious put Vader on his knees via telepathic attack, which is far more impressive than Vitiate's attack on Scourge, considering that Sidious and Vader were separated by a distance of lightyears and Vader being one of the most powerful sith lords in history.

Yes, SIDIOUS, defend your namesake's honor. You're young and are still full of righteous hatred.

You are appointed my successor.

yeah vitiate isnt anywhere near number 1 yet, until canonically shown otherwise

Back on topic tho, i still think caedus would beat vitiate in the saber/all out battle

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, SIDIOUS, defend your namesake's honor. You're young and are still full of righteous hatred.

You are appointed my successor.

You watched the 10 seconds of video and willing to concede the point yet?

When it came to Vitiate, you sure did forget about your back problems.

There's no point to concede and I started to watch it but surrendered when the advertisement kicked in.

again:
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This inlcuded the acute perception of Master Yoda, and the shatterpoint seeing Mace Windu. He was also mind-wiped the entire population of Coruscant.

Also he mentally dominated Luke Skywalker.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When it came to Vitiate, you sure did forget about your back problems.

I lol'd.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When it came to Vitiate, you sure did forget about your back problems.

I can sit up for a bit, but I'm not risking it on big posts. Last time my back spasmed.

Also, how bout you back off mkay?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can sit up for a bit, but I'm not risking it on big posts. Last time my back spasmed.

Also, how bout you back off mkay?

Back off? I lol'd at unintentional pun.

So what was the source of your back spasm?

lol

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Back off? I lol'd at unintentional pun.

So what was the source of your back spasm?

Dunno

Too much anal sex with drugged women?

Yeah.

Aw yeah!

You told me dogg! You TOLD me about anal!

Originally posted by Nephthys
I highly doubt I conceded that

Uh, yeah, you sort of have...

Originally posted by Nephthys
The assertion has been made that no single Jedi can stand against the Sith Emperor. How many agree I wonder.

And your later claim that the Sith Emperor can mind-rape anyone, including Luke.

Basically, I don't understand exactly where you put Vitiate on the power-scale; your opinion ranks from below RotS Sidious to beyond Skywalker.



It isn't more destructive than a Force storm that can destroy entire fleets, no.

Nah.

I wasn't serious when I said that. Although I do think Luke almost succumbing to UnuThul's domination indicates that he's not unbeatable in mental resistance.

Being able to mind-rape Luke doesn't make him more powerful than Luke anymore than Kreia being able to Giga-Drain him does.

And Nihilus' Giga Drain can wreck the surfaces of entire planets and kill every single thing on their surfaces, including almost a hundred Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah.

I wasn't serious when I said that. Although I do think Luke almost succumbing to UnuThul's domination indicates that he's not unbeatable in mental resistance.


OK, so maybe you should clarify where, at the moment, you would put Vitiate on the power scale in terms of raw Force projection ability.



You're insinuating that Vitiate's giga-mind-control and Kreia's giga-drain are one-time haxxed Force techniques that they uniquely learned, from which we cannot extrapolate overall Force ability. Of course, this would lead to the obvious question of why Kreia's secret technique has never been uncovered or obsessively researched by...well, every sith lord to ever succeed her. Because Force drain is hardly a technique only seen in KOTOR 2.



This doesn't really compare to a Force storm's ability to ravage entire fleets, also destroy a planet's surface, and teleport objects lightyears through space-time.

In the Jedi Path, it says it can " kill worlds " pg 133

He can summon multiple hyperspace wormholes in simultaneity

"Mon Mothma: The energy storm that took Commander Skywalker, this is not an isolated event. Similar Storms have been detected in several systems."
-Dark Empire audio drama

Originally posted by Master Han
There are quotations suggesting that Palpatine exhaustively searched the entire galaxy for all hints of dark side teachings in the Dark Times, presumably including any surviving work from the ancient Sith Emperor.

Actually, the quotations claim that Palpatine exhaustively searched the galaxy for all hints of all Force knowledge "in all its guises," not being confined to Jedi or Sith traditions.

Originally posted by Master Han
That being said, realistically speaking it isn't very likely that he could have accumulated as much knowledge in 60 as Vitiate could have in over 1000.

Realistically? No, he shouldn't even be close. Nor should he be close to a 900-year-old Yoda. Nor should 20ish/30ish-year-old Revan and Bane, in turn, be close to Sidious.

But this universe very rarely obeys the laws of reality.

At least with Yoda, Sidious has a higher learning-rate and Yoda isn't known to have actively searched out and consumed force knowledge like he has.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, so maybe you should clarify where, at the moment, you would put Vitiate on the power scale in terms of raw Force projection ability.

Maybe I should.

Originally posted by Master Han
You're insinuating that Vitiate's giga-mind-control and Kreia's giga-drain are one-time haxxed Force techniques that they uniquely learned, from which we cannot extrapolate overall Force ability. Of course, this would lead to the obvious question of why Kreia's secret technique has never been uncovered or obsessively researched by...well, every sith lord to ever succeed her. Because Force drain is hardly a technique only seen in KOTOR 2.

Kreia made efforts to eliminate knowledge of the technique. As she explains to the Exile, Nihilus is a threat to all life as is his teachings, which is why she manipulates the Exile into killing him and the Trayas Academy:

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did. As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.

Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended. It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time. He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew. It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it. And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."

Originally posted by Master Han
This doesn't really compare to a Force storm's ability to ravage entire fleets, also destroy a planet's surface, and teleport objects lightyears through space-time.

Yes it can 'strip the surface from worlds', but it isn't shown to be big enough to do so with a single attack. It can do it with prolonged use, like I can shave my legs with a razor, but that doesn't make it an actual planetary-wide attack like Nihilus' is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia made efforts to eliminate knowledge of the technique. As she explains to the Exile, Nihilus is a threat to all life as is his teachings, which is why she manipulates the Exile into killing him and the Trayas Academy:

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did. As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.

Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended. It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time. He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew. It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it. And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."

Luke claims that it can "kill worlds" in The Jedi Path. If we're going to take a consummate liar's word on Nihilus as the gospel, we'll be taking Luke's word on Palpatine's Force storm just as literally.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes it can 'strip the surface from worlds', but it isn't shown to be big enough to do so with a single attack. It can do it with prolonged use, like I can shave my legs with a razor, but that doesn't make it an actual planetary-wide attack like Nihilus' is.

Do you have any proof to support that? Who's to say Palpatine can't enlarge the maw to encompass a planet?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Luke claims that it can "kill worlds" in The Jedi Path. If we're going to take a consummate liar's word on Nihilus as the gospel, we'll be taking Luke's word on Palpatine's Force storm just as literally.



Do you have any proof to support that? Who's to say Palpatine can't enlarge the maw to encompass a planet?

I think you quoted the wrong part? Anyway, I already explained my reasoning here.

I don't need proof. Its shown as not being that size, so it isn't that size. You think he can do this, you prove it.

A learning rate high enough to surpass nine centuries worth of accumulated knowledge and experience? Seems very unlikely. You can justify it a number of ways, but it's still ridiculous.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you quoted the wrong part? Anyway, I already explained my reasoning here.

The wrong part wasn't quoted. Luke claims that Force storms have the power to kill worlds.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't need proof. Its shown as not being that size, so it isn't that size. You think he can do this, you prove it.

lol

It hasn't displayed the power to kill worlds, either, but we know it can due to a number of sources. All Master Han has said is (correctly) that Force storms can kill worlds. You're the one attempting to interpret it with your razor analogy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A learning rate high enough to surpass nine centuries worth of accumulated knowledge and experience? Seems very unlikely. You can justify it a number of ways, but it's still ridiculous.

Why not? Bane surpassed the rest of the Sith Order inside of a few years. And as I said, Yoda was also a teacher and numerous other things. Sidious had access to a lot more material than him sought out other aspects of and ways to use the force while Yoda seems to have stuck with Jedi knowledge only and actively expanded upon his knowledge with study which I don't recall anything suggesting Yoda did as extensively.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The wrong part wasn't quoted. Luke claims that Force storms have the power to kill worlds.



lol

It hasn't displayed the power to kill worlds, either, but we know it can due to a number of sources. All Master Han has said is (correctly) that Force storms can kill worlds. You're the one attempting to interpret it with your razor analogy.


And they do. Just like I have the power to shave my legs if given enough time.


And I'm using what the technique has actually demonstrated itself as capable of doing, while your speculating that it might be a lot more powerful than its been shown to be. Its like me claiming that Bane can topple a skyscraper. Which he can.... if given enough time and repeated attacks. But I doubt you'd let me just claim that without pointing out the time needed and circumstance.

Edit: BTW I don't... I don't shave my legs. Just so you know.

You never should.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not? Bane surpassed the rest of the Sith Order inside of a few years.

Which is ridiculous. But that's my point. Logically, it makes zero sense. But certain prodigies can master knowledge at frankly outlandish rates.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And as I said, Yoda was also a teacher and numerous other things.

And Sidious wasn't a galactic senator and then Supreme Chancellor who, in addition to administrating the Republic, also directed the Confederacy of Independent Systems? When it comes to workloads, I'm pretty sure Palpatine had the biggest plate and the biggest plateful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious had access to a lot more material than him sought out other aspects of and ways to use the force while Yoda seems to have stuck with Jedi knowledge only and actively expanded upon his knowledge with study which I don't recall anything suggesting Yoda did as extensively.

Palpatine only conclusively "had a lot more material" than Yoda after the birth of the Empire, wherein he studied the Force in "all its guises" and gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from "over a million worlds." And he ruled the Empire for 20 years.

So we have Yoda, who was presumably a prodigy himself, given the implication from TPM that his midi-chlorian count was second only to Anakin's ("not even Master Yoda has a count that high!), placing him at least on par with known prodigies like Mace and Dooku, studying the Force for nine centuries. And Sidious comes along and rivals him by age 65 despite his own insane workload and then surpasses him with an additional 20 years.

Realistically speaking, the likes of Yoda and Vitiate should have vastly more knowledge than the likes of Sidious, Bane, Revan, et al. But they clearly don't. The latter group demonstrate mastery/knowledge in far excess of the time and/or resources at their disposal, whereas the the former group demonstrates a frankly vastly underwhelming mastery/knowledge when one considers the time and/or resources at theirs.

Which is why "realism" is not an appropriate gauge for measuring an adept's knowledge.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Realistically speaking, the likes of Yoda and Vitiate should have vastly more knowledge than the likes of Sidious, Bane, Revan, et al. But they clearly don't.

What makes you think they do not? Has Yoda not been described as having a defense against every dark side technique? Has Vitiate not mastered the practice of a wide variety of sith alchemy and sorcery?

Originally posted by Master Han
What makes you think they do not?

The fact that, to my knowledge, neither character has either been said to possess or demonstrates such mastery.

Originally posted by Master Han
Has Yoda not been described as having a defense against every dark side technique?

Not to my knowledge?

Originally posted by Master Han
Has Vitiate not mastered the practice of a wide variety of sith alchemy and sorcery?

Yeah... but so has Palpatine?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is ridiculous. But that's my point. Logically, it makes zero sense. But certain prodigies can master knowledge at frankly outlandish rates.

Right.

Except Vitiate is also a prodigy. :I

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Sidious wasn't a galactic senator and then Supreme Chancellor who, in addition to administrating the Republic, also directed the Confederacy of Independent Systems? When it comes to workloads, I'm pretty sure Palpatine had the biggest plate and the biggest plateful.

Fair enough, but he still does actively study, which I've no indication Yoda does.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Palpatine only conclusively "had a lot more material" than Yoda after the birth of the Empire, wherein he studied the Force in "all its guises" and gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from "over a million worlds." And he ruled the Empire for 20 years.

And is there a reason to think Sidious surpasses Yoda in knowledge and mastery before he gained all those things? I rather thought he was considered to great in those aspects because of those things.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So we have Yoda, who was presumably a prodigy himself, given the implication from TPM that his midi-chlorian count was second only to Anakin's ("not even Master Yoda has a count that high!), placing him at least on par with known prodigies like Mace and Dooku, studying the Force for nine centuries. And Sidious comes along and rivals him by age 65 despite his own insane workload and then surpasses him with an additional 20 years.

Realistically speaking, the likes of Yoda and Vitiate should have vastly more knowledge than the likes of Sidious, Bane, Revan, et al. But they clearly don't. The latter group demonstrate mastery/knowledge in far excess of the time and/or resources at their disposal, whereas the the former group demonstrates a frankly vastly underwhelming mastery/knowledge when one considers the time and/or resources at theirs.

Which is why "realism" is not an appropriate gauge for measuring an adept's knowledge.

He rivals him in terms of combat ability (which Yoda had diminished in). I'm not sure where your getting that he does so in knowledge of the Force.

Why do they 'clearly don't?' Personally I think Yoda not exceeding Sidious is understandable given what I've already explained. But Vitiate is also a prodigiously powerful darksider with a hunger for knowledge, huge resources and 1400 years of seclusive study. And I don't think he has demonstrated an underwhelming amount of mastery/knowledge.

I prefer "logic" myself.

The point is soaring over your precious English head, but it wouldn't if you could be bothered to release Vitiate's withered dick from betwixt your lips and rise to your feet. Feel free to do so at any moment.

Vitiate was a noted scholar who slurped up the energy of eight thousand Sith Lords and "millions" of inhabitants of Nathema according to legend. He then proceeded to study the dark side for fourteen centuries.

Meanwhile, he fails to demonstrate conclusive mastery over Sidious, who spent a mere twenty years studying not just the dark side, but the Force itself, "in all its guises" from "the greatest works of knowledge" collected from "over a million worlds."

In other words, Palpatine was attempting to study a hell of a lot more than Vitiate is known to have studied in a sliver of the time. Vitiate should conclusively demonstrate far greater knowledge and mastery than Sidious but doesn't.

You've yet to explain how Sidious, in just 20 years, would surpass Yoda who trained and studied the Force for 800+ years.

You naturally want me to accept that premise in order to leverage acceptance of the unsupported notion that Vitiate's knowledge and mastery outstrips Sidious's.

But I'm disinclined to do so.

"The Tempest", you're beginning to confuse Force ability with Force knowledge, the latter of which Palpatine has never conclusively surpassed the likes of Yoda and Odan Urr. It appears that your only argument in support of your notion (which you admit makes no sense) is that we never demonstrate Yoda performing the same rituals and whatever, not exactly a fair contention given Yoda's moral inhibitions.

And Power of the Jedi claims Yoda has a defense for every dark side technique, and he also studied sith holocrons in the Jedi Archives.

Originally posted by Master Han
"The Tempest", you're beginning to confuse Force ability with Force knowledge, the latter of which Palpatine has never conclusively surpassed the likes of Yoda and Odan Urr. It appears that your only argument in support of your notion (which you admit makes no sense) is that we never demonstrate Yoda performing the same rituals and whatever, not exactly a fair contention given Yoda's moral inhibitions.





Not to mention that, per The Dark Empire Sourcebook, many of Palpatine's dark side adepts were masters of their own native magicks and sorceries and Palpatine studied those even as he instructed them in the ways of the dark side.

I tout Palpatine as the pinnacle of Sith knowledge because no one is known to have made quite that exhaustive search for Force knowledge.

Originally posted by Master Han
And Power of the Jedi claims Yoda has a defense for every dark side technique, and he also studied sith holocrons in the Jedi Archives.

That's actually great, more ammo for future Yoda arguments. Could you give me the full quote and page number?

Sith Emperor takes it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not to mention that, per The Dark Empire Sourcebook, many of Palpatine's dark side adepts were masters of their own native magicks and sorceries and Palpatine studied those even as he instructed them in the ways of the dark side.

I tout Palpatine as the pinnacle of Sith knowledge because no one is known to have made quite that exhaustive search for Force knowledge.


I think your argument here is quite circular: you admit that Yoda should have superior knowledge in the Force to Palpatine even when considering the latter's 25 years of galaxy-spanning resources, yet you conclude that Sidious must have greater knowledge...from that very same quotation. The fact is that Yoda himself studied the Jedi Archives, the largest gathering of Force lore ever known to exist, for 8 centuries, and we can therefore reasonably conclude that he knows more than Palpatine from a holistic perspective.



Sadly...I haven't been able to find it. I've heard it touted on KMC forums (do a google search) and, IIRC, mentioned on wookieepedia. I suppose it's possible that those who claim it are mistaken, but...nah.

Originally posted by Master Han
I think your argument here is quite circular: you admit that Yoda should have superior knowledge in the Force to Palpatine even when considering the latter's 25 years of galaxy-spanning resources, yet you conclude that Sidious must have greater knowledge...from that very same quotation.

I believe that, in a realistic context, a guy who studies X for 10 years is unlikely to understand the same subject as much or more than a guy who studies X for 50. I believe that Revan, Bane, and Palpatine all demonstrate an inordinate and unrealistically high mastery of the Force for their respective ages and duration of study when compared to extraordinarily long-lived scholars such as Vitiate and Yoda. Or perhaps Vitiate and Yoda demonstrate an appalling lack of mastery in spite of those long years of study.

Consider that, as Nephthys pointed out, Bane surpassed in alarmingly short time the entirety of Korriban's masters. And, in his estimation, Revan's singular Holocron transcended the teachings of Korriban's entire academy. Revan who was only a Sith Lord for, what? A year? Two? Three? And yet he demonstrates greater knowledge and understanding of the dark arts than lifelong Sith?

But it's merely written off as the product of extraordinarily prodigious minds and diligent studies.

In other words, none of it is portrayed realistically from the get-go. So why should I assume Vitiate and Yoda eclipse the Emperor in Force knowledge when the paradigm of realism clearly doesn't apply to this shit?

Originally posted by Master Han
The fact is that Yoda himself studied the Jedi Archives, the largest gathering of Force lore ever known to exist, for 8 centuries, and we can therefore reasonably conclude that he knows more than Palpatine from a holistic perspective.

And if time were given as the ultimate factor in conferring knowledge or mastery, I'd agree.

Though remember that Palpatine himself secured the Jedi archives in addition to what his agents scoured from the rest of the galaxy. Palpatine's knowledge base was, in all probability, in vast excess of what was available to Yoda and Vitiate.

(Which is another reason why, "realistically," Sidious shouldn't measure up. He had far more to peruse and only a fraction of the time. But I digress.)

Originally posted by Master Han
Sadly...I haven't been able to find it. I've heard it touted on KMC forums (do a google search) and, IIRC, mentioned on wookieepedia. I suppose it's possible that those who claim it are mistaken, but...nah.

Well, keep digging, please. I haven't found it yet.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
In other words, none of it is portrayed realistically from the get-go. So why should I assume Vitiate and Yoda eclipse the Emperor in Force knowledge when the paradigm of realism clearly doesn't apply to this shit?

But Vitiate is also possessing of extraordinarily prodigious minds and diligent studies?

Originally posted by Nephthys
But Vitiate is also possessing of extraordinarily prodigious minds and diligent studies?

No one said he isn't. But the bottom line is that the fvcker is completely limpwristed despite all those years of study. I see no reason to put him on Palpatine's level.

Not in regard to knowledge.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not in regard to knowledge.

Excellent, we agree that Vitiate is not on Palpatine's level in knowledge.

You ****er, you editted that.

I meant hes not limpwristed in terms of knowledge.

You're limpwristed in terms of knowledge.

So lemme get this straight (haven't been on in a little while): ya'll are still arguing about who's STRONGER in the force, or more knowledgeable?

Exactly.

yeah i'd say palpatine for both.

common sense actually, as palpatine learns at an insanely fast rate, plus considering palps had more knowledge to draw from than vitiate (being around 4k years after, prolly longer)

also, about caedus vs vit, we don't know when he plateaus, so....

No, Vitiate still whoops Jacen.

But he learned the Aing Tii abilities during his journey?

I don't like using Caedus anymore than I like using Luke in fights because HIS power discrepancies are insane. The dude has to fulfill some dumbass prophecy to gain magical powers. What the shit is that?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I believe that Revan, Bane, and Palpatine all demonstrate an inordinate and unrealistically high mastery of the Force for their respective ages and duration of study when compared to extraordinarily long-lived scholars such as Vitiate and Yoda. Or perhaps Vitiate and Yoda demonstrate an appalling lack of mastery in spite of those long years of study.


Do they really? Vitiate has demonstrated his own share of ability in the sith arts, creating perpetual lightning storms around his fortress, and absorbing every being on a planet, purging it of the Force and color, and making himself immortal. Yoda hasn't really had much opportunity to demonstrate his Force knowledge.




The Brotherhood of Sith was full of weaklings. Yoda and Vitiate are neither weaklings, nor stupid.

Originally posted by Master Han
Do they really? Vitiate has demonstrated his own share of ability in the sith arts, creating perpetual lightning storms around his fortress, and absorbing every being on a planet, purging it of the Force and color, and making himself immortal. Yoda hasn't really had much opportunity to demonstrate his Force knowledge.

In other words, Vitiate has only demonstrated knowledge on par with Palpatine, despite having more than 14x the amount of time Sidious had to study and much less the amount of material to cover.

All that is to say that yes, Vitiate's level of knowledge is impressive... unless you factor in the time he had to obtain it, in which case it's considerably underwhelming next to Sidious, who rivals him in terms of knowledge in a fraction of the time.

Or for an admittedly clumsy but hopefully simple analogy off the cuff, who is more impressive? A married workoholic with kids who obtains his black belt in 5 years or a single, jobless guy who gets his in 15?

In this case, both Vitiate and Palpatine are black belts. Both are said to possess immense knowledge of the Force. But Vitiate should have far greater knowledge than Sidious, who had a fraction of the time to study it, an incomparable workload due to political and covert operations, and considerably more to study.

And yet Vitiate only demonstrates comparable mastery instead of vastly superior.

Originally posted by Master Han
The Brotherhood of Sith was full of weaklings. Yoda and Vitiate are neither weaklings, nor stupid.

That still doesn't explain how Revan and Bane came to eclipse many of their rivals and predecessors in terms of knowledge despite a fairly insignificant amount of time to obtain it. Clearly "time studied" in Star Wars doesn't weigh in with real world implications.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
In other words, Vitiate has only demonstrated knowledge on par with Palpatine, despite having more than 14x the amount of time Sidious had to study and much less the amount of material to cover.

I dunno man, the weird shit he does with spreading his consciousness over hundreds of beings, while housing his power and consciousness in his Voice is pretty legit, all while boosting his Imperial Guards with his power. Not to mention his big Doomsday ritual that could absorb the galaxy. And all this is just things he made up, while Palpatine seems to just horde old knowledge.

A ritual that was never actually successfully enacted and might have failed entirely. Not to mention that he does draw on the power of at least some of his minions during the process.

He is indeed "legit," but I'm not seeing evidence of excess compared to Palpatine.

SWTORE says that if the ritual had gone off, it would have worked and 'the Emperor will conquer death itself and become the most powerful being in all of galactic history.'

His network of Children and his Voice suggest it too me.

I'd like the full passage of the first quote.

Nah, Palpatine's Force storms are still way more impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
SWTORE says that if the ritual had gone off, it would have worked and 'the Emperor will conquer death itself and become the most powerful being in all of galactic history.'


Doesn't this imply that he isn't the most powerful being in galactic history, and that he isn't truly immortal?

Nothing's more impressive than immortality, which Vitiate was able to do for 1400 years.

Urgh:

"Aided by his powerful, secretive, and far-reaching power base, the Emperor pulls strings across the galaxy to carry out his master stroke - the details of which only he knows. Should he suceed in his plans, the Emperor will conquer death itself and become the most powerful being in all of galactic history."

Another one says:

"Lord Scourge reveals the Emperor's true goal for the war: to complete a Sith ritual that will grant him unlimited power and immortality by eradicating all life in the galaxy."

And **** you for making me type that up.

The Book of Sith reveals he plagiarized his Force Storms from Malgus' teachings. hmph

Hmm, he also claims Malgus' battlefield feats have never been duplicated. Does that suggest they surpass his own? Doubtful. mmm

Originally posted by Master Han
Doesn't this imply that he isn't the most powerful being in galactic history, and that he isn't truly immortal?

He isn't. The World Razor and Lo'tekk are much more powerful than him. He is immortal though, just not unkillable.

Originally posted by Thor Is Girly
Nothing's more impressive than immortality, which Vitiate was able to do for 1400 years.

Pfft. Obi-Wan Kenobi is immortal. Your argument is invalid, son.

Remind me how?

He's one with the Force, bro. He's living forever.

Originally posted by Thor Is Girly
Nothing's more impressive than immortality, which Vitiate was able to do for 1400 years.

Given proper maintenance, R2D2 could easily beat that record.

HK-47 beats that number.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He's one with the Force, bro. He's living forever.

But hes ****ing dead.

Remind me why Lotek'k is more powerful? That flashpoint or Operation was after I quit playing that shitty game.

The website says it can destroy the galaxy.

That doesn't say much. According to SWTOR, we've seen about 10 things that can destroy a galaxy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, its legit.

I...really don't think that's to be taken literally.

Nah, it is.

Caedus SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

Emperor humiliates.

Sabers goes to Caedus without question.

This seems like novel Vitiate, and off-nexus, I'm not too sure if he's more powerful than Caedus, to be honest. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though and say he wins the Force round.

All-out goes to Caedus as well.

Didn't you say on CV that Revan and Solo are rough equals with the Force?

Do you think Revan as well is that close to Vitiate then?

Without a nexus, probably.

Lmfao.