Thor and the Destroyer vs Ghost Rider and Spawn

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Lestov16
Bloodlusted deathmatch in Times Square
No PIS/CIS
Who takes it?

Supra
Destroyer Solo's while Thor drinks some fine mead.

COG Veteran
Either Thor or Destroyer can solo team 2.

BruceSkywalker
Thor sits back, gets drunk, beds Sif, then beds Jane, plays tidly winks with Loki, shines Mjolnir for the upcoming battle with Malekith and Kurse while the Destroyer solos...

jinXed by JaNx
I have a hard problem with debating how the movie version of Spawn would do in these hypothetical death matches. I always end up referring to the comic version and the comic version like many instances has the advantage here. However, the movie version, I think would end up depleting his energy toppling the destroyer. Ghost rider doesn't have any kind of chance against, Thor here.

the ninjak
I believe the question is how innocent is Thor?

In both films his nobility was in question. No doubt Thor is a mass murderer....after all he has battled many people's armies on multiple planes.

He always seems to be on the path of redemption. I hope the new film covers this.

Silent Master
Who did Thor murder?

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Who did Thor murder?

Ice Giants

the ninjak
Originally posted by juggerman
Ice Giants

And lots of em. Not all of them guilty of (possibly) shedding innocent blood.
But instead defending their primal land.

juggerman
Originally posted by the ninjak
And lots of em. Not all of them guilty of (possibly) shedding innocent blood.
But instead defending their primal land.

Did he kill that one that called him a name? I remember Thor turned to leave and the Giant made a slick comment(called him a princess i think) and Thor smiled and then hit him. Not sure if he killed him tho but if so i'd say he's a murderer

the ninjak
Look my point is.......


The Destroyer Armor and Thor are no doubt mass murderers.
The Thor history is proof of that unless other forums perceive Thor's actions as being void of any consequence.
He is devoid of any consequences.

Ghost Rider still "absolutely" destroys any being who killed innocent blood.

And the Destroyer Armor is in those levels. Along with possibly Thor.

juggerman
Originally posted by the ninjak
Look my point is.......


The Destroyer Armor and Thor are no doubt mass murderers.
The Thor history is proof of that unless other forums perceive Thor's actions as being void of any consequence.
He is devoid of any consequences.

Ghost Rider still "absolutely" destroys any being who killed innocent blood.

And the Destroyer Armor is in those levels. Along with possibly Thor.

The Destroyer isn't technically alive, nor does it have a soul which is required for the Stare to work. GR's Stare didn't work on Blackheart when he was souless

the ninjak
Originally posted by juggerman
The Destroyer isn't technically alive, nor does it have a soul which is required for the Stare to work. GR's Stare didn't work on Blackheart when he was souless

Not being alive is a huge forward in the Destroyer Armor's advancement in this battle.

Then again, it's all about Thor.

Then again. What does a spirit of vengeance do against a machine of destruction?

Ghost Rider absolutely took control of a huge machine. Why not a Destroyer Armor?

Lestov16
Can the Destroyer take out Ghost Rider or Spawn?

the ninjak
Originally posted by Lestov16
Can the Destroyer take out Ghost Rider or Spawn?

With Ghost Rider in control of the Destroyer the question is whether he can take out Thor.

FrothByte
Originally posted by the ninjak
Look my point is.......


The Destroyer Armor and Thor are no doubt mass murderers.
The Thor history is proof of that unless other forums perceive Thor's actions as being void of any consequence.
He is devoid of any consequences.

Ghost Rider still "absolutely" destroys any being who killed innocent blood.

And the Destroyer Armor is in those levels. Along with possibly Thor.

Problem with the penance stare is, well, GR needs time to stare you down. From what we have seen in the movies, GR holds the guy in place and it takes more than a couple of seconds to get his penance stare to work. I just don't think he'll have the luxury of doing this against Thor.

Another thing is, Thor isn't technically a murderer. He's fought in wars and may have killed enemies then, but killing in war is not technically the same as killing in cold blood. He's still worthy enough to carry his hammer after all.

Destroyer doesn't have a soul so penance stare wno't work on it at all.

juggerman
Originally posted by the ninjak
Not being alive is a huge forward in the Destroyer Armor's advancement in this battle.

Then again, it's all about Thor.

Then again. What does a spirit of vengeance do against a machine of destruction?

Ghost Rider absolutely took control of a huge machine. Why not a Destroyer Armor?

What machine?


Originally posted by FrothByte
Problem with the penance stare is, well, GR needs time to stare you down. From what we have seen in the movies, GR holds the guy in place and it takes more than a couple of seconds to get his penance stare to work. I just don't think he'll have the luxury of doing this against Thor.

Another thing is, Thor isn't technically a murderer. He's fought in wars and may have killed enemies then, but killing in war is not technically the same as killing in cold blood. He's still worthy enough to carry his hammer after all.

Destroyer doesn't have a soul so penance stare wno't work on it at all.

Thor going to the Ice Giant's home world for the sole purpose of picking a fight so he could kill them is still murder. They were defending themselves iirc

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
Ice Giants

You mean the guys that invaded Thor's homeland(didn't they kill a couple of guards?) and were working with Loki to kill them? You seem to be confusing killing with murder.... and that's assuming Thor even killed any of the Ice Giants during that fight.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
You mean the guys that invaded Thor's homeland and were working with Loki to kill them? You seem to be confusing killing with murder.... and that's assuming Thor even killed any of the Ice Giants during that fight.

Yeah those guys. You seem to be confusing two or three working with Loki with the entire race. Thor went looking to kill and kill he did. Premeditated

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
Yeah those guys. You seem to be confusing two or three working with Loki with the entire race. Thor went looking to kill and kill he did. Premeditated

Loki made a deal with their king, do you have any proof that 1) Thor actually killed any of them and 2) The ones he killed were innocent?

BruceSkywalker
lol and double triple lol, @thor being a murderer.. if he were than he would have gotten back his power when Odin taught him humility

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman

Thor going to the Ice Giant's home world for the sole purpose of picking a fight so he could kill them is still murder. They were defending themselves iirc

We don't exactly see Thor "kill" anyone of them. Thor picked a fight with them because he believed they were instigating a war when a few of them tried to steel the cask. Doesn't matter what the ice giant's motives were, point is Thor believed it to be an act of war and believed his actions just. That's not murder.

Silent Master
I like how the Ice Giants are being portrayed as innocent victims, when the movie started with them invading Earth and murdering multiple people with a WMD(Casket) and then later invading Asgard in order to steal sed WMD back and the movie ended with them again invading Asgard and attempting to murder Odin in his sleep.

It's like some people don't realize that invading a country and attempting to steal a WMD would be considered an act of war.

jinXed by JaNx
Originally posted by the ninjak
Look my point is.......


The Destroyer Armor and Thor are no doubt mass murderers.
The Thor history is proof of that unless other forums perceive Thor's actions as being void of any consequence.
He is devoid of any consequences.

Ghost Rider still "absolutely" destroys any being who killed innocent blood.

And the Destroyer Armor is in those levels. Along with possibly Thor.


I don't see the Penance star having any affect on, Thor. It's generally used on those who are cold blooded or have no remorse. Thor has had justifications in all the beings he has killed.

the ninjak
Originally posted by juggerman
What machine?

The huge construction machine in the recent film.
He jumped on it and took complete control of it.
It is apparently one of movie Ghost Rider's powers.
You argued the Destroyer has no soul and is an automaton.
Ghost Rider should take control of it upon touch.

Now it's 3 against 1.

Silent Master
I'm not sure that taking over a piece of construction equpiment is proof that he can hijack the Destroyer arnor.

the ninjak
Why not? It's a soulless automaton, and no one is controlling it in this fight.
And Ghost Rider is a freaking insane archangel sent to protect the Earth.
Angels > Asgardians.

Silent Master
Because movie Ghost Rider has zero feats of taking over something like the Destroyer armor.

the ninjak
Abilities are abilities.
The Rider has not only shown the ability to control any mechanical object but animals as well.
Don't put the Destroyer on a pedestal.
It is a tool of war. And it currently has no pilot.
And Ghost Rider has the credentials to ride the machine.
GR has shown higher supernatural ability than Loki has.

Silent Master
As I said, GR has zero feats of controlling something like the Destroyer, IE a magically animated suit of armor.

the ninjak
And as I said GR is a higher level of being than Loki.

Loki controlled the armor. You think GR is not a "magical" being? He's an Archangel!

Can you imagine the carnage GR would have wrought if he was on the Helicarrier?

Silent Master
Loki was able to travel between dimensions and control the armor from that distance, that is above movie GR's level.

He was also able to hide himself and others from Heimdall's senses, which again could detect things from other dimensions.

the ninjak
And lucky for GR the Destroyer is right in front of him so it doesn't have to worry about such long distance control.
Spawn can even envelope him and with cloaking appear right next to it!

The Destroyer becomes GR's ride.

Silent Master
Again, GR has no feats of controlling something like the Destroyer armor.

the ninjak
Riders touch any machine or animal and make them their rides.

Deal with it. It's a superpower.

It has no pilot in this fight. It's running on AI.

Silent Master
Again, GR has zero feats of taking over a magically animated suit of armor.

the ninjak
Lets play this game.

GR is a freakin Archangel of Justice! Sent by God to defend the denizens of Earth.

If that isn't "magical" enough for you then I don't know what is!

Silent Master
Good for him, he still doesn't have any feats of taking over magical animated objects.

the ninjak
GR threw a being into the air then threw him deep into the earth and pushed him into Hell.

Arguing base feats. That should BFR the Destroyer right. smile

Silent Master
Because the Destroyer is just going to stand there and let him, right? I mean it's not like the Destroyer has a ranged attack or superstrength.

FrothByte
Originally posted by the ninjak
And as I said GR is a higher level of being than Loki.

Loki controlled the armor. You think GR is not a "magical" being? He's an Archangel!

Can you imagine the carnage GR would have wrought if he was on the Helicarrier?

Loki only controlled the armor because he was recognized as king of Asgard while Odin slept. The Destroyer armor (as far as movie version go) only responds to the ruler of Asgard.

GR controlling an inanimate machine is very different from him trying to wrestle control over a machine that's already being controlled (magically) by another mind.

Supra
Originally posted by the ninjak
With Ghost Rider in control of the Destroyer the question is whether he can take out Thor.

However GR is not in control of the Destroyer and thats not what this thread about. Lets keep it on point. No chance in hell GR ever is able to control the destroyer.

Thor wins

the ninjak
Fair enough.

Can't blame a guy for trying. Ghost Rider meets his match here.

Robtard
Ghost Rider > Thor, you bunch of fanboys.

The Destroyer is the unknown here if GR would be able to destroy it with his hell-spawned powers or not. GR is able to control inanimate objects, so there's an argument to be made if GR would be able to possess the Destroyer and control it, as he does other machinery, but that's a big if.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Loki made a deal with their king, do you have any proof that 1) Thor actually killed any of them and 2) The ones he killed were innocent?

1) Didn't Thor throw his hammer thru one of them. That would probably be a kill right there. His allies were killing as well iirc but honestly it's been a while since i've seen it
2)Their King and Loki had a secret pact. No reason to believe all his followers knew about it. Most likely a select few, like the ones that invaded Asgard

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
lol and double triple lol, @thor being a murderer.. if he were than he would have gotten back his power when Odin taught him humility

lol and double triple lol @ YOU! Can you even tell me what makes one "Worthy" in Odin's eyes? How can you then assert that murder might be a disqualifying factor? stick out tongue

Originally posted by FrothByte
We don't exactly see Thor "kill" anyone of them. Thor picked a fight with them because he believed they were instigating a war when a few of them tried to steel the cask. Doesn't matter what the ice giant's motives were, point is Thor believed it to be an act of war and believed his actions just. That's not murder.

So if 3 or 4 people from you country attack another country that now means that its fair for the opposing country to come attack/kill you specifically since you are a part of the enemy? I disagree. We have no idea if these guys even knew why they were being invaded and were likely just trying to stay alive

Originally posted by Silent Master
I like how the Ice Giants are being portrayed as innocent victims, when the movie started with them invading Earth and murdering multiple people with a WMD(Casket) and then later invading Asgard in order to steal sed WMD back and the movie ended with them again invading Asgard and attempting to murder Odin in his sleep.

It's like some people don't realize that invading a country and attempting to steal a WMD would be considered an act of war.

I like it too. You are using "they' and "them" like it encompasses the entire race. It doesn't. As i said earlier if a few members of your gov did something against another it seems like you are just considered to be an active part of the hostilities even if you're just a bystander. Thor didn't go straight after the party responsible or even try to figure out who exactly was behind the invasion. He lumped them all together(like a true racist stick out tongue ) and decided they all needed to die.

Sure they were dicks in the past but that was millenia ago. They could have changed while a radical few tried to cause issues. Are all citizens of the opposing country active combatants now? And i believe Thor wanted to wipe them all out. That includes innocent children too.

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman

So if 3 or 4 people from you country attack another country that now means that its fair for the opposing country to come attack/kill you specifically since you are a part of the enemy? I disagree. We have no idea if these guys even knew why they were being invaded and were likely just trying to stay alive


Trying to stay alive? By trying to steal the cask of winters? Odin should have at least contacted Laufey to answer for his men's crimes and give explanation.

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
Trying to stay alive? By trying to steal the cask of winters? Odin should have at least contacted Laufey to answer for his men's crimes and give explanation.

By "trying to stay alive" i was referring to the ones Thor attacked. They could have had no clue as to why they were being invaded and attacked by Thor. He had no reason to actually believe those guys weren't simply working on their own and the threat had been erased. I agree with Odin contacting them

Supra
Originally posted by Robtard
Ghost Rider > Thor, you bunch of fanboys.

The Destroyer is the unknown here if GR would be able to destroy it with his hell-spawned powers or not. GR is able to control inanimate objects, so there's an argument to be made if GR would be able to possess the Destroyer and control it, as he does other machinery, but that's a big if.

Thor > Ghost Rider

Silent Master
Originally posted by FrothByte
Trying to stay alive? By trying to steal the cask of winters? Odin should have at least contacted Laufey to answer for his men's crimes and give explanation.

He's just trolling, hell the movie clearly shows that the Frost Giants are the real mass murders as they invaded Earth and killed an entire village(IE men, women and children), later on orders from their King they invaded Asgard and killed Asgardians in an attempt to steal a WMD.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
He's just trolling, hell the movie clearly shows that the Frost Giants are the real mass murders as they invaded Earth and killed an entire village(IE men, women and children), later on orders from their King they invaded Asgard and killed Asgardians in an attempt to steal a WMD.

Oh my, i don't agree with you therefore i must be trolling? Yet you've countered not one point. Good job just b*tching and not adding anything to this.

Oh and last time i checked, killing a mass murderer just because you don't like them is still murder bucko thumb up

Silent Master
Thor wasn't shown to kill any innocent people, therefore he isn't a mass murderer...so you have no point.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Thor wasn't shown to kill any innocent people, therefore he isn't a mass murderer...so you have no point.

I never said he was a "mass murderer" so drop the man-o-straw please.

Let's put it this way: I your brother/sister did something bad to me/my family and then i went to your house and picked a fight with you over it and then killed you that would be murder yes? Thor does exactly that yet why isn't it considered murder in your eyes?

EDIT: And you are way too caught up on "innocent" here. If you walked up to a known murderer on the street and shot him in the face while he was just reading a paper you would have committed murder. He didn't need to be innocent for it to count

Silent Master
You're right, ninjak said mass murderer...you're just arguing that Thor murdered the Frost Giants...so please post clips of Thor murdering them.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
You're right, ninjak said mass murderer...you're just arguing that Thor murdered the Frost Giants...so please post clips of Thor murdering them.

At work so i can't post the clip atm but when him Loki and the Warriors Three went in against Odin's wishes did he kill Frost Giants? I'm pretty sure they all did. If so we just need to establish if it can be considered murder or not

Silent Master
Ok, I'll be waiting on poof that Thor murdered them...which by the way you wont be able to provide...because after Thor hit the first Giant, the rest attacked Thor's group.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Ok, I'll be waiting on poof that Thor murdered them...which by the way you wont be able to provide...because after Thor hit the first Giant, the rest attacked Thor's group.

So if i walk into your house, pick a fight with you, and then strike one of your family members and then someone attacks me i can kill them and it wouldn't be murder?

Silent Master
I'm still waiting for proof that Thor murdered the Frost Giants.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm still waiting for proof that Thor murdered the Frost Giants.

So trespassing, provoking, attacking and killing isn't murder now? Looks like you're just going to close your eyes, cover your ears and pretend it never happened

Silent Master
Thor wasn't trespassing as he had every right to be there and it was actually the Frost Giant who provoked the fight as Thor had agreed to leave by that point.

So again, I'll be waiting for the proof that Thor murdered the Frost Giants.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Thor wasn't trespassing as he had every right to be there and it was actually the Frost Giant who provoked the fight as Thor had agreed to leave by that point.

So again, I'll be waiting for the proof that Thor murdered the Frost Giants.

He was. He was told not to go there and it was their land/world. Trepassing. He went there to kill them as he stated earlier and only agreed to leave because of Loki.

So trepassing? Check. Provoking? Check. Attacking? Check. Killing? Check. And mate

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
He was. He was told not to go there and it was their land/world. Trepassing. He went there to kill them as he stated earlier and only agreed to leave because of Loki.

So trepassing? Check. Provoking? Check. Attacking? Check. Killing? Check. And mate

Post the clip where Frost Giants told Thor that going to their world would be trespassing...because as it stands Thor was within his rights to go there and demand an explanation for why they broke the treaty.

Thanks for admitting that Thor had agreed to leave and that the fight only started because the Frost Giant insulted him.

I'm still waiting for proof that Thor murdered the Frost Giants.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Post the clip where Frost Giants told Thor that going to their world would be trespassing...because as it stands Thor was within his rights to go there and demand an explanation for why they broke the treaty.

Thanks for admitting that Thor had agreed to leave and that the fight only started because the Frost Giant insulted him.

I'm still waiting for proof that Thor murdered the Frost Giants.

I'm sorry but going into another world that you are not welcome is trepassing. He was even told not to go by his own king. And i like how you glossed over the fact that Thor himself stated he wanted to kill all the Frost Giants.

So name calling is now enough reason to kill? Gotcha. Thor being there looking for trouble provoked everything including that mean old name calling.

So trepassing? Check. Provoking? Check. Attacking? Check. Killing? Check. And mate

Silent Master
Again, Post the clip where Frost Giants told Thor that going to their world would be trespassing...because as it stands Thor was within his rights to go there and demand an explanation for why they broke the treaty.

Post the proof that one hit killed the Frost Giant.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Again, Post the clip where Frost Giants told Thor that going to their world would be trespassing...because as it stands Thor was within his rights to go there and demand an explanation for why they broke the treaty.

Post the proof that one hit killed the Frost Giant.

Again Thor proclaimed they should kill all the Frost Giants and they went there to do just that.

Is it you're claim that he didn't kill a Frost Giant?

Silent Master
That's nice, however I'm still waiting on the proof that Thor murdered them.

juggerman
Avoiding again?

Silent Master
Not avoiding anything, I've addressed your points; there is nothing left to say until you can post the clips.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Not avoiding anything, I've addressed your points; there is nothing left to say until you can post the clips.

So you plan on denying the facts? Good to know

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman
I'm sorry but going into another world that you are not welcome is trepassing. He was even told not to go by his own king. And i like how you glossed over the fact that Thor himself stated he wanted to kill all the Frost Giants.

So name calling is now enough reason to kill? Gotcha. Thor being there looking for trouble provoked everything including that mean old name calling.

So trepassing? Check. Provoking? Check. Attacking? Check. Killing? Check. And mate

Name calling is not reason enough to kill. But Thor didn't kill that Frost giant who insulted him. He just hit it. However when you're outnumbered and you start fighting for your life (even if you did start that fight) against a whole world you've been at war with for centuries... and you ended up killing someone trying to defend yourself and your friends... is that murder then?

Anyway, it really doesn't matter how we think of it and how it matches our laws. The point of this was whether Thor would be guilty over it. If he's not guilty over it and if he feels it was justified then the penance stare may probably not work on him (regardless of how our human laws apply to him).

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
So you plan on denying the facts? Good to know

I've explained why he wasn't trespassing, I never denied that Thor hit one of the Frost Giants, however their is no proof that it killed the FG nor does that one hit mean he can't defend himself and his friends when a few dozen other Giants attack them.

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
Name calling is not reason enough to kill. But Thor didn't kill that Frost giant who insulted him. He just hit it. However when you're outnumbered and you start fighting for your life (even if you did start that fight) against a whole world you've been at war with for centuries... and you ended up killing someone trying to defend yourself and your friends... is that murder then?

Anyway, it really doesn't matter how we think of it and how it matches our laws. The point of this was whether Thor would be guilty over it. If he's not guilty over it and if he feels it was justified then the penance stare may probably not work on him (regardless of how our human laws apply to him).

I agree but as stated earlier Thor went there with full intentions of killing FGs. He stated he wanted them all dead and went there to do so himself. Just look at his reaction to the name calling. He smiled. He wanted any reason at all to attack them. That's intent imo

If he started the fight on purpose(he did) then he is at fault. He attacked them so of course they would fight back. Thor was cold blooded

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
I've explained why he wasn't trespassing, I never denied that Thor hit one of the Frost Giants, however their is no proof that it killed the FG nor does that one hit mean he can't defend himself and his friends when a few dozen other Giants attack them.

You did not explain that. You seem to think that since he wasn't given a formal warning then it's ok. He wasn't there to inquire no matter how much you'd like to spin that. He was there to kill by his own admission. He picked a fight knowing they would attack him. Still murder.

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
You did not explain that. You seem to think that since he wasn't given a formal warning then it's ok. He wasn't there to inquire no matter how much you'd like to spin that. He was there to kill by his own admission. He picked a fight knowing they would attack him. Still murder.

He's the prince of the nation that was attacked, he had every right to go there and demand to know why they broke the treaty.

Still waiting on proof that he murdered the Frost Giants.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
He's the prince of the nation that was attacked, he had every right to go there and demand to know why they broke the treaty.

Still waiting on proof that he murdered the Frost Giants.

Yet that's not the reason he went. The spinning continues

EDIT: Oh and here's your proof:

Originally posted by juggerman
So trespassing? Check. Provoking? Check. Attacking? Check. Killing? Check. And mate

Silent Master
The most you have proven it that he attacked one Frost Giant after the Giants broke the peace treaty...that doesn't come close to proving he's guilty of murder.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
The most you have proven it that he attacked one Frost Giant after the Giants broke the peace treaty...that doesn't come close to proving he's guilty of murder.

All you have done is deny the obvious

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
All you have done is deny the obvious

If it's so obvious, post the clips of him murdering the Frost Giants.

Actually, I just rewatched the scene...Thor hits two before they all attack him and his friends. however there is zero proof that either Giant was killed.

juggerman
p-BNpS63KI4

Here's the video you were too lazy to post yourself. Notice at 1:06 Thor attacks and likely kills a Frost Giant for calling him a mean name. The FG in question does fly away and appears to break apart upon impact with the mountain. That's one

Then at 1:08 he says "Next?" implying that he's not done with his assault and wants to inflict more damage. This is cemented by the fact he needlessly attacks and likely kills another FG who's only crime was standing too close to Thor during his tantrum. That's two.

Seeing Thor's rampage, and having every reason to believe he would not stop until they all were dead, the others attack to try to stay alive. Spin away

Silent Master
Now you're just lying, the Frost Giant wasn't shown breaking apart, he was shown crashing into an ice wall that broke under his impact.

Nice try, now please post clips of him actually murdering Frost Giants.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Now you're just lying, the Frost Giant wasn't shown breaking apart, he was shown crashing into an ice wall that broke under his impact.

Nice try, now please post clips of him actually murdering Frost Giants.

Aw you've graduated to ignoring actual scenes now congratulations! He broke apart but even if he didn't(he did) any and all deaths after that point is cause the FGs are fighting for their lives against Thor's blind fury. If I walked into your house, attacked your family and showed no signs of stopping you'd attack me to defend yourself and your kin right? Then if I killed you it would suddenly become self defense? laughing out loud It's still murder

Just did guy. You're in denial

Silent Master
He crashed into ice, you'd have a hard time proving that any pieces are him breaking apart and not the ice he hit. and no...even if I hit the two people standing next to you; that doesn't give you and all your friends the legal right to try and kill me and my friends.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
He crashed into ice, you'd have a hard time proving that any pieces are him breaking apart and not the ice he hit. and no...even if I hit the two people standing next to you; that doesn't give you and all your friends the legal right to try and kill me and my friends.

He crashed into ice and broke apart. His whole body didn't have to break as we see other FGs being decapitated and having hole broken thru them and they don't completely break either

Prove they are trying to kill him at first and not just trying to stop his blood thirsty rampage. It was only after several of them went down do we see the FG actually going for the kill

Silent Master
He crashed into the ice and the ice broke apart, now please post actual examples of Thor murdering Frost Giants.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
He crashed into the ice and the ice broke apart, now please post actual examples of Thor murdering Frost Giants.

The ice of his body broke apart. Already did

Silent Master
No, the ice he crashed into broke apart and you haven't posted any proof that he murdered the Frost Giants.

Lestov16
p-BNpS63KI4

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
No, the ice he crashed into broke apart and you haven't posted any proof that he murdered the Frost Giants.

Posted and ignored

Silent Master
First, your clip didn't work, it just should a white screen with a "!", second; the fight just shows Thor hitting two of the Giants before all the others start attacking him and his friends...there is no proof that the two he hit died.

Lestov16
There's a problem with your computer then. It worked just fine when I tested it about a millisecond before typing this.

Silent Master
It's still not showing on mine and neither is yours.

juggerman
Originally posted by Lestov16
There's a problem with your computer then. It worked just fine when I tested it about a millisecond before typing this.

thumb up

Les also posted it. Try his

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
First, your clip didn't work, it just should a white screen with a "!", second; the fight just shows Thor hitting two of the Giants before all the others start attacking him and his friends...there is no proof that the two he hit died.

The others were defending themselves against his assault. Him killing any after provoking them and attacking them is him wrongfully killing them with intent to do so. I wonder if there is a word for that...

Silent Master
Them attacking Thor and his allies because he hit two of their friends doesn't mean the Asgardians aren't allowed to defend themselves.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Them attacking Thor and his allies because he hit two of their friends doesn't mean the Asgardians aren't allowed to defend themselves.

"They" as in Loki and the warriors were just defending themselves. Thor is the only murderer here. Until Loki becomes one later of course

Silent Master
Incorrect, as there is no proof that the two Frost Giants he hit died.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Incorrect, as there is no proof that the two Frost Giants he hit died.

There's proof when you actually stop denying it. Plus the others he killed would still be murdered given the circumstances

Lestov16
How many died in the Jotunhiem blast?

Silent Master
Seeing ice shatter when someone crashes into an ice wall isn't proof.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Seeing ice shatter when someone crashes into an ice wall isn't proof.

I see you're ignoring the others he murdered. As expected

Silent Master
The ones that attacked him?

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
The ones that attacked him?

In defense

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
In defense

Yes, Thor was acting in defense because they attacked him.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Yes, Thor was acting in defense because they attacked him.

Thor was the aggressor

Silent Master
When he hit the first two, yes(but there is no proof that those two died)....but after that the other Frost Giants attacked Thor and his friends.

Lestov16
Thor could have walked away but attacked out of hubris. Sure Laufey insulted him, but he was not trying to harm Thor, and Thor could have been the better man and walked away, but instead acted out of impulse and attacked everybody because his feelings were hurt. I think that makes him the aggressor.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Lestov16
Thor could have walked away but attacked out of hubris. Sure Laufey insulted him but Thor could have been the better man and walked away, but instead acted out of impulse and attacked everybody because his feelings were hurt. I think that makes him the aggressor.

He hit two Frost Giants, after that the FG's attacked both Thor and his friends. Hitting someone doesn't mean you lose your right to defend yourself if all his friends decide to jump you.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
When he hit the first two, yes(but there is no proof that those two died)....but after that the other Frost Giants attacked Thor and his friends.

Keep living in dreamland

juggerman
Originally posted by Lestov16
Thor could have walked away but attacked out of hubris. Sure Laufey insulted him, but he was not trying to harm Thor, and Thor could have been the better man and walked away, but instead acted out of impulse and attacked everybody because his feelings were hurt. I think that makes him the aggressor.

To all but SM

Lestov16
Originally posted by Silent Master
He hit two Frost Giants, after that the FG's attacked both Thor and his friends. Hitting someone doesn't mean you lose your right to defend yourself if all his friends decide to jump you.

He hit the first one into a wall head-first. The second one he upper-cutted, sending him flying. I'm pretty sure the massive head trauma they both suffered killed them.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Lestov16
He hit the first one into a wall head-first. The second one he upper-cutted, sending him flying. I'm pretty sure the massive head trauma they both suffered killed them.

You're forgetting that they have superhuman durability.

Lestov16
Thor killed others with his hammer, so it's not like it's some impossible feat to kill a Frost Giant, especially with the force Thor used in those initial blows. And if they withstood the blows, why didn't they rejoin the battle?

Silent Master
Originally posted by Lestov16
Thor killed others with his hammer, so it's not like it's some impossible feat to kill a Frost Giant, especially with the force Thor used in those initial blows. And if they withstood the blows, why didn't they rejoin the battle?

With the amount of Giants in the battle are you sure those two never showed up again, even at the bridge? however even if they didn't, they could have merely been ko'd.

juggerman
And they could have been killed. You seem so sure they survived so i assume you have proof and not just baseless speculation right?

FrothByte
Originally posted by Lestov16
Thor could have walked away but attacked out of hubris. Sure Laufey insulted him, but he was not trying to harm Thor, and Thor could have been the better man and walked away, but instead acted out of impulse and attacked everybody because his feelings were hurt. I think that makes him the aggressor.

It doesn't matter if he's the aggressor. Point is there's still no proof he murdered anyone.

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
It doesn't matter if he's the aggressor. Point is there's still no proof he murdered anyone.

Well we see FGs being killed by far less than what Thor did to those 1st two he hit. There is absolutely no reason to believe they survived

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman
Well we see FGs being killed by far less than what Thor did to those 1st two he hit. There is absolutely no reason to believe they survived

That's just it. You're assuming they were killed. But as far as we can see, all that happened was that they got knocked down. They didn't bleed, they didn't disintegrate, they didn't crack, they showed no signs that they were dead. There is NO proof that they died.

COuld you give me examples of FG's getting killed by far less of what Thor did?

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
That's just it. You're assuming they were killed. But as far as we can see, all that happened was that they got knocked down. They didn't bleed, they didn't disintegrate, they didn't crack, they showed no signs that they were dead. There is NO proof that they died.

COuld you give me examples of FG's getting killed by far less of what Thor did?

And you're assuming they were just fine and dandy. Thor's hammer toss broke heads off and ripped holes in FGs yet none of them completely broke apart so for you're stance to be "Well they didn't break apart so not dead" is severely faulty.

Hammer toss killed several, The Warriors Three killed several with strength and weapons far inferior to Thor and Mjolnir, Loki killed some ect. Their durability is not all that great, better than human, but still not great. So Thor hitting two, that were completely off guard, so hard that they were sent flying and crashing into mountains so hard that the mountain breaks pretty much cements that they were killed. Well at least one since we don't see the second one hit anything.

Lestov16
Originally posted by FrothByte
That's just it. You're assuming they were killed. But as far as we can see, all that happened was that they got knocked down. They didn't bleed, they didn't disintegrate, they didn't crack, they showed no signs that they were dead. There is NO proof that they died.


Can you show me this obviously deleted scene that shows the non-bleeding, non-injured state of the Frost Giant Thor smacked into a wall? Can you post a scene of a Frost Giant withstanding an impact equal to the hit Thor gave those first 2 FGs? Otherwise, your claim that they survived is pretty baseless.

FrothByte
Originally posted by Lestov16
Can you show me this obviously deleted scene that shows the non-bleeding, non-injured state of the Frost Giant Thor smacked into a wall? Can you post a scene of a Frost Giant withstanding an impact equal to the hit Thor gave those first 2 FGs? Otherwise, your claim that they survived is pretty baseless.

No, my claim is just 1 bit better than yours. You also can't show me any clip that the Frost Giants were bleeding, cracked, or dead. So we're both in the same boat when it comes to that.

But 1 proof I do have that you don't, is that the FG's do get knocked down, and that's clearly shown. So it's like this:

Me: FG's get knocked down. Proof - shown on screen

You. FG's get killed. Proof - ...............

A person is not dead until proven otherwise. You see a sleeping person on the street, he won't be declared dead until proven dead. You see a comatose patient in the hospital, he won't be declared dead until proven dead. You can't simply go to an unconscious person and claim that he's "dead" simply because he looks like it. If someone got hit by a basketball in the head and got knocked out, can you claim with any authority that that person is dead without actual proof??

Your reasoning is backward. Being alive doesn't need proof. It's being dead that needs to be proven. If Loki can survive getting hit by Mjolnir, what makes you think the FG's will automatically get killed with a single hit from it?

Lestov16
Originally posted by FrothByte
No, my claim is just 1 bit better than yours. You also can't show me any clip that the Frost Giants were bleeding, cracked, or dead. So we're both in the same boat when it comes to that.

Actually you can't show them withstanding the hit. It's more believable that they died than survived.

Originally posted by FrothByte
But 1 proof I do have that you don't, is that the FG's do get knocked down, and that's clearly shown. So it's like this:

Me: FG's get knocked down. Proof - shown on screen

Were they smacked into a wall with excessive force?

Originally posted by FrothByte
You. FG's get killed. Proof - ...............

The proof that they didn't get up afterwards

Originally posted by FrothByte
A person is not dead until proven otherwise. You see a sleeping person on the street, he won't be declared dead until proven dead. You see a comatose patient in the hospital, he won't be declared dead until proven dead. You can't simply go to an unconscious person and claim that he's "dead" simply because he looks like it. If someone got hit by a basketball in the head and got knocked out, can you claim with any authority that that person is dead without actual proof??

Getting smacked head first into a wall by a godly hammer isn't the same as getting hit in the head by a basketball. You have it backwards. You can't prove the Frost Giant lived, and judging by the force Thor used, plus the fact he was killing others with his hammer, it's more plausible they died.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Your reasoning is backward. Being alive doesn't need proof. It's being dead that needs to be proven.

Negative.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If Loki can survive getting hit by Mjolnir, what makes you think the FG's will automatically get killed with a single hit from it?

Thor didn't hit Loki with the same force, and Loki was defending himself with his spear.

FrothByte
Originally posted by Lestov16

Getting smacked head first into a wall by a godly hammer isn't the same as getting hit in the head by a basketball. You have it backwards. You can't prove the Frost Giant lived, and judging by the force Thor used, plus the fact he was killing others with his hammer, it's more plausible they died.




Of course a human getting hit by mjolnir is not the same as getting hit by a basketball. But then again, it's not a human that was hit by mjolnir but a frost giant. A 10 ft tall giant who's strong enough to go toe to toe with asgardians. You keep saying the Thor was killing others with his hammer, which others? Where are those that he killed? You say the proof is that they didn't get back up, well when a someone is knocked out guess what, they don't get up.

Maybe if you showed me a pic or something of the FG's face getting caved in or exploding in blood or something, then you might have proof. Because all you're really saying is that "Thor hit the frost giant, frost giant fell and didn't get up, therefore he must be dead."

the ninjak
Are we really arguing whether Thor has killed on the battlefield?
His friends were all killing like crazy in the Frost Giant scene.
Whether Frost Giants survived the beating Thor gave them during that scene is irrelevant.
He fought to put them all down. His intent was to end them.
In the new trailer he shatters an opponent. He shatters him!

Silent Master
We aren't arguing if Thor has killed before, we're arguing if he's ever murdered someone.

the ninjak
Those Frost Giants weren't there for a fight.
They were protecting their home capital from invaders.
It was the Asgardians who picked the fight. Turned up on their turf and threatened retribution for what less than a handful of Frost Giants attempted.

Odin was right. The Destroyer dealt with all attempts at the theft.
Thor acted irrationally, Loki's manipulations don't count.

Thor and friends killed a crap load of Frost Giants that day who's intent was to simply protect their lord.

Thor smashed the entire landmass apart. Your opinion of whether Thor is guilty of murder is not in question. He went out there to punish.
And Odin wisely punished him for it. If Thor committed such acts at this stage in his life surely during his many campaigns he has killed many others.

Silent Master
Actaully whether or not Thor commited murder has been the question for several pages.

juggerman
And he has

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman
And he has

And there's no proof

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
And there's no proof

There is proof

Robtard
Originally posted by the ninjak
Those Frost Giants weren't there for a fight.
They were protecting their home capital from invaders.
It was the Asgardians who picked the fight. Turned up on their turf and threatened retribution for what less than a handful of Frost Giants attempted.

Odin was right. The Destroyer dealt with all attempts at the theft.
Thor acted irrationally, Loki's manipulations don't count.

Thor and friends killed a crap load of Frost Giants that day who's intent was to simply protect their lord.

Thor smashed the entire landmass apart. Your opinion of whether Thor is guilty of murder is not in question. He went out there to punish.
And Odin wisely punished him for it. If Thor committed such acts at this stage in his life surely during his many campaigns he has killed many others.

Disagreed. Attacking someone that attacked your home first is retaliation, regardless of Odin's "meh, no harm done" speech, the Frost Giants did attack first and Thor had no knowledge that they were sent in by Loki.

So as far as he knew, he was retaliating; not initiating an attack, even then he didn't and was about to leave peacefully until he was purposely pushed into doing so. He's just a big dumb blonde who can't see the bigger picture and why he didn't listen to daddy's words of wisdom in the first place. But a murderer that day on Jotunheim? No.

juggerman
Originally posted by Robtard
Disagreed. Attacking someone that attacked your home first is retaliation, regardless of Odin's "meh, no harm done" speech, the Frost Giants did attack first and Thor had no knowledge that they were sent in by Loki.

So as far as he knew, he was retaliating; not initiating an attack, even though he didn't and was about to leave peacefully until he was purposely pushed into doing so. He's just a big dumb blonde who can't see the bigger picture and why he didn't listen to daddy's words of wisdom in the first place.

He also had no knowledge that the plot went beyond the 3 or so already dead. And the Giants didn't attack as much as they were just trying to regain what was, in their opinion, rightfully theirs.

Silent Master
The Giants did attack, or did you miss the fact that they broke the peace treaty by invading a sovereign nation and then murdered multiple Asgardians in an attempt to steal a WMD.

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
The Giants did attack, or did you miss the fact that they broke the peace treaty by invading a sovereign nation and then murdered multiple Asgardians in an attempt to steal a WMD.

Odin didn't see it that way so no treaty was broken

Robtard
Originally posted by juggerman
He also had no knowledge that the plot went beyond the 3 or so already dead. And the Giants didn't attack as much as they were just trying to regain what was, in their opinion, rightfully theirs.

Did he take the time to investigate it fully, no. Considering the previous history that Asgard and Jotunheim had, he had no reason to believe it was just a few rogue Asgardians. Odin seemingly didn't believe this either, he just didn't care in the bigger scheme of things, ie not starting a full out war again which would cost more than just a few Asgardian lives.

As noted by SilentMaster, the Giants broke a treaty, invaded and murdered citizens of Asgard. As far as Thor knew, they provoked first.

The question of "the casket belonged to them", it didn't anymore. They lost it in a war and a treaty was had with Asgard safeguarding it.

juggerman
Originally posted by Robtard
Did he take the time to investigate it fully, no. Considering the previous history that Asgard and Jotunheim had, he had no reason to believe it was just a few rogue Asgardians. Odin seemingly didn't believe this either, he just didn't care in the bigger scheme of things, ie not starting a full out war again which would cost more than just a few Asgardian lives.

As noted by SilentMaster, the Giants broke a treaty, invaded and murdered citizens of Asgard. As far as Thor knew, they provoked first.

The question of "the casket belonged to them", it didn't anymore. They lost it in a war and a treaty was had with Asgard safeguarding it.

Odin seemed to believe it as he never even tried to see if was something else. I guess he may have just wanted to overlook it tho

This isn't about who provoked first tho. Thor went to their home and started wrecking shit cuz he was called a name.

Again i said "in their opinion" meaning to whom it literally belonged to didn't really matter to them

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
Odin didn't see it that way so no treaty was broken

Did Frost Giants invade Asgard and murder multiple Asgardians(vault guards) in an attempt to steal a WMD(casket)?

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Did Frost Giants invade Asgard and murder multiple Asgardians(vault guards) in an attempt to steal a WMD(casket)?

Did Odin see this a breach of the Treaty? Have we been shown this Treaty? Do we know what is considered an actual breach of it?

Silent Master
Originally posted by juggerman
Did Odin see this a breach of the Treaty? Have we been shown this Treaty? Do we know what is considered an actual breach of it?

Again, Did Frost Giants invade Asgard and murder multiple Asgardians(vault guards) in an attempt to steal a WMD(casket)?

juggerman
Again, did Odin see this as a breach of the Treaty? Have we been shown this Treaty? Do we know what is considered an actual breach of it?

Silent Master
Odin never said one way or the other if it was a breach of the treaty.

Now, Did Frost Giants invade Asgard and murder multiple Asgardians(vault guards) in an attempt to steal a WMD(casket)?

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
Odin never said one way or the other if it was a breach of the treaty.

Now, Did Frost Giants invade Asgard and murder multiple Asgardians(vault guards) in an attempt to steal a WMD(casket)?

So then how can you say it was breached? Without viewing it yourself(you didn't), having it explained to you(it wasn't), or having someone who was present when it was agreed upon saying it was breached(he never did) you can't know. You can assume, which you're doing, but you don't know.

Yes a few did. Yet you've failed to prove it was a breach of said treaty

Silent Master
So, your stance is that invading a sovereign nation, murdering multiple people and attempting to steal a WMD is ok and doesn't justify any reaction?

juggerman
Originally posted by Silent Master
So, your stance is that invading a sovereign nation, murdering multiple people and attempting to steal a WMD is ok and doesn't justify any reaction?

No.

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman
Again, did Odin see this as a breach of the Treaty? Have we been shown this Treaty? Do we know what is considered an actual breach of it?

Doesn't matter if Odin saw this as a breach of treaty or not. We're not talking about Odin. Thor saw it as a breach of treaty and went to dealt with it as he saw fit. He may or may have been wrong, or Odin may or may have been wrong (in this case Odin was actually wrong).

Still that doesn't matter. Thor believed it was an act of war (which it actually was) and he went to deal with it.

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
Doesn't matter if Odin saw this as a breach of treaty or not. We're not talking about Odin. Thor saw it as a breach of treaty and went to dealt with it as he saw fit. He may or may have been wrong, or Odin may or may have been wrong (in this case Odin was actually wrong).

Still that doesn't matter. Thor believed it was an act of war (which it actually was) and he went to deal with it.

Technically we don't know that it was. We have no clue as to what this "Treaty" described as an act of war. Can three Giants acting on their own accord independent of the rest of their race be considered an "Act of War"?(Yes i know it turns out differently but he had no way of knowing this) Odin did not seem to think so. What he believed is much more important than what Thor believed seeing as he was the one that helped create it, not his son Thor.

Still doesn't change what happened. He killed Frost Giants, for name calling no less, in cold blood. You can say the rest were "attacking him", tho you have no proof that they were as they could have just been trying to stop his rampage, but not the first two. Hell the second one he hit did nothing at all.

Now this is the part where you go "But they COULD have survived..." with no actual evidence to support it. Fact is they(Frost Giants) were killed by a lot less than what Thor did to those two and while they were actually on guard. Unless you have some actual reason as to why you believed they lived besides "could have" then we can conclude they died

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman
Technically we don't know that it was. We have no clue as to what this "Treaty" described as an act of war. Can three Giants acting on their own accord independent of the rest of their race be considered an "Act of War"?(Yes i know it turns out differently but he had no way of knowing this) Odin did not seem to think so. What he believed is much more important than what Thor believed seeing as he was the one that helped create it, not his son Thor.

Still doesn't change what happened. He killed Frost Giants, for name calling no less, in cold blood. You can say the rest were "attacking him", tho you have no proof that they were as they could have just been trying to stop his rampage, but not the first two. Hell the second one he hit did nothing at all.

Now this is the part where you go "But they COULD have survived..." with no actual evidence to support it. Fact is they(Frost Giants) were killed by a lot less than what Thor did to those two and while they were actually on guard. Unless you have some actual reason as to why you believed they lived besides "could have" then we can conclude they died

Actually if you're the one accusing someone of murder, burden of proof is on you. You can't just accuse someone of murder because you saw him hit the guy. So, you're accusing Thor of murder, where's your proof?

juggerman
Originally posted by FrothByte
Actually if you're the one accusing someone of murder, burden of proof is on you. You can't just accuse someone of murder because you saw him hit the guy. So, you're accusing Thor of murder, where's your proof?

The Frost Giants died. Now if it was "murder" or not can be debated imo

Silent Master
Thor and the Destroyer win.

FrothByte
Originally posted by juggerman
The Frost Giants died. Now if it was "murder" or not can be debated imo

And of course this brings us back to the whole "you have no proof they died" argument. All you have is that you saw them get knocked down. Not exactly a convincing argument. You claim that the frost giants were killed by far less, please cite me these examples where they were killed by "far less".

Robtard
I'd say "far less" or at least 'less' would be the giants killed by Thor's teammates who as we know, are less powerful than Thor and especially a Thor wielding Mjolnir.

-Sif killed one via spear to chest

-Loki killed two with daggers, one stab and one thrown

-Fandral killed one via sword

There were others that appeared to have died at the companions' hands, but I guess one could argue "they were just knocked down".

It should also be noted that several of the ones Thor knocked down, he hit them so hard they flew back/upwards several yards. The very first one he hit, that fool flew up and out a good 100 feet and crashed into the mountain, it would be silly to think he survived, considering some of his kin died from far less.

Silent Master
To be fair, the three people you mentioned used blades, compared to Mjolnir which is a blunt object. I've actually walked away from getting hit in the head by a brick..but I'm fairly sure that a sword to the chest would kill me.

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