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Setting: Garden of Mortis

Force levels:

Anakin Skywalker - Clone Wars/The Clone Wars (all seasons)/RotS
Savage Opress - Clone Wars Season 3 & 5
Obi-Wan Kenobi - Clone Wars/RotS
Darth Maul - Clone Wars Season 5

Saber levels:

Anakin Skywalker - Clone Wars/RotS
Savage Opress - TCW Season 4 & 5
Obi-Wan Kenobi - TCW Season 4 & 5/RotS
Darth Maul - TPM/TCW Season 4 & 5

Boosts:

Anakin Skywalker - Temporary Zone-mode
Savage Opress - Dathomirian Rage Mode
Obi-Wan Kenobi - Extra peak focus (displayed in season 5)
Darth Maul - Dathomirian Rage mode & Darksaber

Zonakin is one of the best duelists in the mythos, period. He may solo, although I admit I don't know how haxxed the other "in teh zones" are.

I give this to team 2, barely.

Zonakin. I think Opress in rage-mode might be able to beat Maul, but at the least he holds out long enough for Anakin to stomp Kenobi.

So everyone's basically in the zone? Interesting. But I think team 1 stomps. Skywalker in the zone is considerably more powerful than Count Dooku so he might solo.

Whilst Opress in his rage enhanced state was sending Skywalker and Kenobi both flying with Force Tk, so he will probably have the power to send Maul and Kenobi flying, seen as neither Maul or Kenobi have displayed Uber Force Tk defenses while in their peak states.

Well Maul has shown the ability to casually dismiss Savage, but at the same time Zoneakin can likely stomp anyone on team B in seconds. In fact Kenobi and Maul together can likely not defeat Zoneakin.

Maul can't "dismiss" or stomp Savage anymore because his legs and height aren't the same

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Maul can't "dismiss" or stomp Savage anymore because his legs and height aren't the same

He floored him in 10 seconds before. Perhaps now Savage can last 20.

^ This is Savage in his rage boost when he kept flooring Kenobi and Skywalker.

But then this is also Maul in his rage boost when he temporarily challenged Sidious by himself.

Lol.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lol.

If your referring to this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
this is also Maul in his rage boost when he temporarily challenged Sidious by himself.

I was just pointing out which state Maul is in.

No worries. Anakin solos by himself though.

Zone anakin is one of the most overhyped characters on this board. It was FLAT OUT STATED.. that Anakin became a BETTER duelist AFTER he turned to the Darkside. This means that the anakin beaten by kenobi was better than the one that beat dooku. Further, all these pepole saying how zone anakin was well above Dooku... agian this is a myth... Dooku used up VITAL ENERGIES just fighting off the two. He had exhausted some of his force reserves... Was over confident as stated by the main fight consultant/fight director. He wasn't well above dooku at all.

Yes he was...

Not according to somebody who directed the fight scenes and was specifically in charge of them and who was at what levels. that carries exponentionaly more weight than what you believe. Somebody in charge of all that and working closely with Lucas said Anakin became better when he turned to the sith. Case closed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not according to somebody who directed the fight scenes and was specifically in charge of them and who was at what levels. that carries exponentionaly more weight than what you believe. Somebody in charge of all that and working closely with Lucas said Anakin became better when he turned to the sith. Case closed.

Case not closed because Anakin was likely at the peak of his power in the Jedi Temple. Once the fear of losing Padme and the regret for his actions kicked in, he was certainly not on his A game.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Zone anakin is one of the most overhyped characters on this board. It was FLAT OUT STATED.. that Anakin became a BETTER duelist AFTER he turned to the Darkside. This means that the anakin beaten by kenobi was better than the one that beat dooku. Further, all these pepole saying how zone anakin was well above Dooku... agian this is a myth... Dooku used up VITAL ENERGIES just fighting off the two. He had exhausted some of his force reserves... Was over confident as stated by the main fight consultant/fight director. He wasn't well above dooku at all.

The RotS novelization puts Zonakin far, far beyond Tyrannus; Dooku's mastery of the Force was turned into a "joke". The Anakin we see fighting Dooku is one of the superior duelists in the entire mythos.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not according to somebody who directed the fight scenes and was specifically in charge of them and who was at what levels. that carries exponentionaly more weight than what you believe. Somebody in charge of all that and working closely with Lucas said Anakin became better when he turned to the sith. Case closed.


You mean the same Choreographer who places Anakin as a level 9 duelist up there with Mace, Yoda and Sidious whilst Kenobi is a whole level below at an 8?

And the same director who states the only reason Kenobi and Skywalker fought like equals was because they knew each others moves inside out?

Is that the Director/Choreographer your talking about?

Originally posted by Master Han
The RotS novelization puts Zonakin far, far beyond Tyrannus; Dooku's mastery of the Force was turned into a "joke". The Anakin we see fighting Dooku is one of the superior duelists in the entire mythos.

The same novel muses that Dooku may be getting too old... The same novel mentoins tooku being tired and expending vital energy and force reserves just fighting off the duo. Again, Filoni said dooku was over confident and underestimated Anakin. All those things point to something other than Anakin being way more powerful than dooku as well

Savage only lasted 6 seconds shorter against Sidious than Maul did--yes, I counted. And his superiority, like Kenobi's, is denied.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The same novel muses that Dooku may be getting too old... The same novel mentoins tooku being tired and expending vital energy and force reserves just fighting off the duo. Again, Filoni said dooku was over confident and underestimated Anakin. All those things point to something other than Anakin being way more powerful than dooku as well

Whilst your contentions are true, the same passage also makes it clear that Anakin was far superior; with the sith lord's mastery of the Force being a "joke" and his legendary sword play being irrelevant. It wasn't just "the superior Dooku was nonetheless too old and tired to defeat Anakin".

That's the thing though... It was basically saying Dooku was more powerful but Anakin the better duelist if anything. It says Anakin made Dooku's mastery of the force i.e. better in the force a joke with his better swordplay. That passage doesn't mean Anakin is more powerful. Then when you add in the quotes I reference.. it becomes clear Anakin wasn't leagues beyond Dooku in power or the force.. just better in swordplay if anything. You can't just reference one quote as proof but then turn your head to other quotes pointing to something different.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Savage only lasted 6 seconds shorter against Sidious than Maul did--yes, I counted.

But Maul clearly fought better the whole fight. Not to mention he stomped Opress when they fought for Mastership.


Originally posted by Taay'hai
And his superiority, like Kenobi's, is denied.


???

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's the thing though... It was basically saying Dooku was more powerful but Anakin the better duelist if anything. It says Anakin made Dooku's mastery of the force i.e. better in the force a joke with his better swordplay.

That...doesn't seem to fit with Stover's description of the battle. It certainly makes more sense to conclude that Anakin's zone-rage made him stronger in the Force and more concentrated than to argue that his technical bladework somehow surpassed Dooku's. Remember that the passage describe's Dooku's mastery of the lightsaber as useless, not inferior. In contrast, his mastery of the Force is a "joke", which does suggest inferiority.

God bless Stover, but the Zonakin concept was so horrendously realized.

Maul can't warp his new humanoid cyber-legs into new claws that give him 2.16 height anymore, they aren't magically going to wrap Savage's face up and slam him down

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Maul can't warp his new humanoid cyber-legs into new claws that give him 2.16 height anymore, they aren't magically going to wrap Savage's face up and slam him down

Ok, that's possible. But I would still argue Maul's superiority (in Sabers at least) based on him fighting better against Kenobi and Sidious, both times both Brothers were fighting together so it's easy to compare.

And what did you mean about Kenobi's superiority?

I'd say Maul is superior to both Kenobi and Oppress, but Kenobi is superior to Oppress.

maul is not superior to Kenobi.. that is a total and complete joke... Kenobi wasn't turned into a midget like Maul was by kenobi...

Master Han... that doesn't make sense though.. We know Aankin's force powers were not on the same level as Dooku's. So that stance doesn't jive either. It makes much more sense that the passage in question means... Anakin's zone mode and saber skills made Dooku's mastery of the force irrelevant.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'd say Maul is superior to both Kenobi and Oppress, but Kenobi is superior to Oppress.


I'd say Maul's probably the overall most powerful of the 3 of them.

But it's really not that simple with this trio. Tbh I actually think Opress might have the greater Raw TK Power between him and Maul.

Sabers I'd say Kenobi >/= Maul > Opress.

Force Powers I'd give it Opress > Maul > Kenobi.

Strength: Opress > Maul > Kenobi.

So I honestly think Opress could still be a serious threat to Maul or Kenobi if he uses a combination of his Beastly Force waves and follows it up by pounding on his opponent with his tremendous strength. Let's not forget this is the guy whose sent both Kenobi and Skywalker flying all over the place with a Force Wave. And the same guy whose floored Count frigging Dooku with his tremendous strength. Kenobi has never even come close to flooring Count Dooku.

You can believe Maul is the most powerful all you want... but that doesn't change the fact that Kenobi has outclassed Maul and Opress together.. and holds the most decisive victory over maul as a Padawan. Nothing you believe can distort this clear facts that make Kenobi > than either.

Lets not be hasty there. Maul holds the obvious advantage in terms of the Force, chucking him around in Revival and choking him in that dumb comic, and theres not really a decisive advantage in lightsaber combat. Personally I see them as equals, though I think its likely that Kenobi will be the one to kill Maul in the end.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can believe Maul is the most powerful all you want... but that doesn't change the fact that Kenobi has outclassed Maul and Opress together..

Since you seem to ignore time frames I'll have to remind you that Maul has matched Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together. Heck even in TCW Opress has sent both Skywalker and Kenobi together flying all over the place.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and holds the most decisive victory over maul as a Padawan.

About as decisive as Vader's victory over the Emperor.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nothing you believe can distort this clear facts that make Kenobi > than either.

And nothing you say will change the fact that Kenobi has been battered by Maul, Opress and Ventress individually all on different occasions.

But carry on talking about how Kenobi outclassed Maul and Opress once in TCW, yet ignore the fact that Maul was just fine at the end of that fight whilst Kenobi was disarmed and knocked senseless.
Or how Padawan Kenobi killed Maul with a weapon Maul didn't even realize he had, yet was floored and disarmed himself TWICE in fair combat by MAUL and would have surely been killed BOTH TIMES if not for Qui-Gon being there (Kenobi's canonically superior at the time who himself was clearly inferior to Maul).





Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I see them as equals, though I think its likely that Kenobi will be the one to kill Maul in the end.


That will almost definitely be the case given the events of Season 5. Of course killing in itself isn't the all and end all. I mean Vader did kill Sidious.

But yes they are peers, with Maul having the power advantage whilst Kenobi seems to be the slightly superior- swordsman, edit- and perhaps tactician.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since you seem to ignore time frames I'll have to remind you that Maul has matched Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together. Heck even in TCW Opress has sent both Skywalker and Kenobi together flying all over the place.




About as decisive as Vader's victory over the Emperor.



And nothing you say will change the fact that Kenobi has been battered by Maul, Opress and Ventress individually all on different occasions.

But carry on talking about how Kenobi outclassed Maul and Opress once in TCW, yet ignore the fact that Maul was just fine at the end of that fight whilst Kenobi was disarmed and knocked senseless.
Or how Padawan Kenobi killed Maul with a weapon Maul didn't even realize he had, yet was floored and disarmed himself TWICE in fair combat by MAUL and would have surely been killed BOTH TIMES if not for Qui-Gon being there (Kenobi's canonically superior at the time who himself was clearly inferior to Maul).








That will almost definitely be the case given the events of Season 5. Of course killing in itself isn't the all and end all. I mean Vader did kill Sidious.

But yes they are peers, with Maul having the power advantage whilst Kenobi seems to be the slightly superior- swordsman, edit- and perhaps tactician.

A Terrible analogy as I've shown.... Sidious wasn't even paying attention to Vader.. he was "fighting" Luke and the time and Vader grabbed him from behind... and still got killed in the process. Horrible example compared to Maul ONLY fighting Kenobi... looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi... having the highter ground over Kenobi.. and still getting cut in half like the midget he still is. Not even close to the same comparison.

The whole thing about not knowing Qui-gon weapon wasn't there is total hogwash... Are you now claiming maul is a totally and complete idiot who has the memory capacity of an ant? He had killed Qui-Gon minutes early yet didn't realize his weapon was there. So not only are you claiming maul is an idiot.. he's an idiot who has no prrecog or shitty reflexes... which i'm still waiting for you to decide which one?

You also forget that NEVER as even a padawan did Maul disarm Kenobi in saber combat.. He disarmed him both times with the force and a kick. Kenobi disarmed him WITH HIS SABER in saber combat as a PADAWAN. Ohhh and NO maul couldn't have killed Kenobi twice... the first time he was sent flying off the ledge... Maul would've had to jump down there first at which point Kenobi would've been recovered and ready as the wasn't the least bit stunned.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A Terrible analogy as I've shown.... Sidious wasn't even paying attention to Vader.. he was "fighting" Luke and the time and Vader grabbed him from behind... and still got killed in the process. Horrible example compared to Maul ONLY fighting Kenobi... looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi... having the highter ground over Kenobi.. and still getting cut in half like the midget he still is. Not even close to the same comparison.

Not really. Maul had no idea Kenobi had a weapon. So he really wouldn't give a crap if Kenobi wanted to jump up to him. They were both(Maul and Sidious) taken completely by surprise, not knowing all the facts. Simple as that. Not a bad analogy at all. Not perfect, but not bad either.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The whole thing about not knowing Qui-gon weapon wasn't there is total hogwash... Are you now claiming maul is a totally and complete idiot who has the memory capacity of an ant? He had killed Qui-Gon minutes early yet didn't realize his weapon was there. So not only are you claiming maul is an idiot.. he's an idiot who has no prrecog or shitty reflexes... which i'm still waiting for you to decide which one?

His pre-cog is as shitty as Sidious's, as neither of them saw what was coming.

As for forgetting about Qui-Gon's weapon, he was being idiotic, yes, due to his cockiness. As far as he was concerned the fight was over. Much like Sidious who thought he was safe before he died.

And are you actually claiming Maul didn't forget about Qui-Gon's weapon? Because I don't know if you noticed, but he specifically disposed of Kenobi's weapon but not Qui-Gon's.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You also forget that NEVER as even a padawan did Maul disarm Kenobi in saber combat.. He disarmed him both times with the force and a kick.

LOL What the heck's that's supposed to mean? Are kicks and Force Push's not part of combat now?

I guess Mace's win over Sidious doesn't count then, or Kenobi's win over Opress.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi disarmed him WITH HIS SABER in saber combat as a PADAWAN.

You mean partially disarmed him, not fully. Whilst Maul fully disarmed Kenobi TWICE.
So What? How did that help him? The only things that helped him survive the day were Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon's weapon and the element of surprise.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ohhh and NO maul couldn't have killed Kenobi twice...


LOL Keep denying it pal.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
the first time he was sent flying off the ledge... Maul would've had to jump down there first at which point Kenobi would've been recovered and ready as the wasn't the least bit stunned.


LOL Talk about Total Denial? It would have taken Maul 2 seconds to jump down. It took Kenobi like a good 10 seconds to get back up and pick up his weapon again. And he was completely stunned! Knocked senseless, left hanging and disarmed of his damn weapon!

Maul clearly outclassed him. Again the only things that helped Kenobi survive the day were Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon's weapon and the element of surprise.

Stop being obtuse on purpose... There are KEY differences in both situations...

1. Sidous was fighting luke not vader
2. Sidious wasn't even looking at Vadar
3. Sidious didn't think Vader would betray him
4. Vadar wasn't on lower ground nor was he without a weapon
5. Sidious didn't watch vader fly up... call for his sword.. ignite his sword and not be able to react.

now compare in stark contrast to

1. Maul only fighting Kenobi
2. Maul looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi
3. Maul knowing full well Kenobi wanted to kill him
4. Maul was on higher ground vs. an unarmed foe he was looking at
5. Maul watched kenobi fly up... call for his weapon.. ignite his weapon and still couldn't react.

HUGE HUGE differences between the two.. it's a TERRIBLE analogy . The fact is, Maul got tooled by a padawan kenobi and turned into a midget.

Still, Maul could've impaled Obi-Wan in Season 5 when he caught the rabid fool in a Telekinetic grip, but he didn't want him dead, and Opress knew the consequences of killing Obi-Wan in front of his brother. If they wanted to kill him on Florrum, they would have.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Stop being obtuse on purpose...


It's not my fault you've failed so hard to prove Kenobi's "clear" superiority over Maul.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There are KEY differences in both situations...

1. Sidous was fighting luke not vader
2. Sidious wasn't even looking at Vadar
3. Sidious didn't think Vader would betray him
4. Vadar wasn't on lower ground nor was he without a weapon
5. Sidious didn't watch vader fly up... call for his sword.. ignite his sword and not be able to react.



1. Sidious was taken by surprise, as was Maul.
2. Maul didn't even realize Kenobi had a weapon.
3. Maul didn't even realize Kenobi had a wepaon.
4. Kenobi hadn't just lost an arm and still had a Lightsaber available. Vader was armless and weaponless.
5. Maul never saw Kenobi grab hold of and ignite Qui-Gon's sword. Kenobi does that when he's just above Maul.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
now compare in stark contrast to

1. Maul only fighting Kenobi
2. Maul looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi
3. Maul knowing full well Kenobi wanted to kill him
4. Maul was on higher ground vs. an unarmed foe he was looking at
5. Maul watched kenobi fly up... call for his weapon.. ignite his weapon and still couldn't react.

1. They were not fighting anymore. The fight was over in Maul's mind. That's why he didn't just Force push him to hi death.
2. Yeah and? He had no weapon as far as Maul knew.
3. Maul having no idea Kenobi had the MEANS to kill him.
4. Clear PROOF that Maul MUST HAVE been taken by surprise, since we know from ROTS that's an impossible move to make under normal circumstances.
5. Nope, he didn't watch him ignite him weapon. Watch the scene again.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
HUGE HUGE differences between the two.. it's a TERRIBLE analogy . The fact is, Maul got tooled by a padawan kenobi and turned into a midget.

Oh yeah, tooled so bad that Kenobi couldn't even keep up with the fight Lol. That the best Kenobi with the aid of his Master could do was Match Maul. LOL LOL

Now you can answer a question you've consistently avoided in this Ultra Daft debate: If Kenobi is LOL so Superior to Maul that Maul can not even React to him coming from LOWER Ground, then how exactly is Maul EVER able to even fight Kenobi?

And how exactly did Qui-Gon get left to fight on his own.


Fact is the only decisive victories in that fight were all from Maul. Maul stomping of Kenobi smacking him all over the place and disarming him of his wepaon TWICE. And Maul defeating Qui-Gon (Kenobi's canonically proven Superior).

Fact is Kenobi would have been KILLED Both times if Qui-Gon was not there.

Oh and why the heck is Kenobi even getting Kicked and Disarmed while fighting alongside A JEDI MASTER, if he's LOL so much Faster than Maul and Capable of STOMPING him from Lower Ground??!

Just face it KT you've lost this one. Move on now, your only embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Still, Maul could've impaled Obi-Wan in Season 5 when he caught the rabid fool in a Telekinetic grip, but he didn't want him dead, and Opress knew the consequences of killing Obi-Wan in front of his brother. If they wanted to kill him on Florrum, they would have.

Opress isn't beating Kenobi without using his Beastly Force TK Waves, which was probably difficult for him to utilize in that environment, without hitting Maul too.

Maul completely controlled Kenobi with that TK grip and should have finsihed the fight then, but I guess he consistently underestimated Kenobi's determination (as well as his skills) in that fight.

I have to agree with KT on this one. Kenobi's fight against Maul and Opress was a win for Kenobi. That being said, Kenobi certainly isn't far above Maul. But he is above him if we go by showings especially considering Maul's only win against Kenobi was when the latter was tired and exhausted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
But he is above him if we go by showings

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Not by a considerable margin. Like 55/45. I'm sorry, but Filoni saying that focused Kenobi bests Maul and Opress because he's prepared emotionally this time is pretty damning to the argument that Maul is better than Kenobi.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not by a considerable margin. Like 55/45. I'm sorry, but Filoni saying that focused Kenobi bests Maul and Opress because he's prepared emotionally this time is pretty damning to the argument that Maul is better than Kenobi.

DP used to vehemently repeat the same thing but finally conceded the logic of my argument. All Filoni says is that Obi-Wan wasn't going to lose that duel in that situation.

Not to mention that "that duel" ended with Maul KO'ing Obi-Wan with a Force b1tchslap when sufficiently motivated.

Then Shadow Conspiracy outright states the crowded environment hindered the brothers. Then you have the fact that Maul sought Kenobi's surrender, not to mention his confession in "The Lawless" that he never planned on killing Obi-Wan.

I don't know why we should take an outlier feat for Obi-Wan as the norm when the Obi-Wan camp outright refuses to give the same consideration to the outlier feat in season 3 when Savage embarrassed Obi-Wan and Anakin together.

The same Savage who has "only grown more powerful" since leaving Dooku's service per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Camp Kenobi's argument hinges on lies and double standards. I can accept Obi-Wan being better than Savage and equal to Maul as a duelist, but Maul is unquestionably the more powerful and skilled Force user.

Because Savage didn't beat Anakin or Kenobi....

Originally posted by ares834
Because Savage didn't beat Anakin or Kenobi....

Savage scored the only visible blows, including the final one, throwing both Kenobi and Skywalker to the floor and laying waste to Dooku's droids. Let's not pretend it was a stalemate or an impressive showing for either Jedi.

Where am I pretending it's an impressive showing by the Jedi?

That said, it wasn't nearly as dominant as you make it out to be. Heck, in their first duel Anakin tackles Savage rather than strike him down.

Originally posted by ares834
Where am I pretending it's an impressive showing by the Jedi?

That said, it wasn't nearly as dominant as you make it out to be. Heck, in their first duel Anakin tackles Savage rather than strike him down.

It's at least as dominant as Kenobi's performance against the brothers in "Revival." At least Maul Force-smacked Obi-Wan twice then. Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't get one hit in on Savage.

I'm perplexed that your view of this is so distorted.

No, it's not. Kenobi's duel has Savage getting his leg cut off, the Sith retreating, and confirmation that Kenobi won. It's not really comparable.

Originally posted by ares834
No, it's not.



Originally posted by ares834
Kenobi's duel has Savage getting his leg cut off,

Kenobi's duel with Anakin ended with the amputation of three limbs. Is he more powerful than Anakin?

Originally posted by ares834
the Sith retreating,

Because one was wounded and Maul's plans were collapsing around his ears. Obi-Wan fled from Grievous during the season 5 Youngling arc. Is Grievous a better duelist?

Originally posted by ares834
and confirmation that Kenobi won. It's not really comparable.

We have visual confirmation of Obi-Wan being b1tchslapped with impunity and buried under rubble. Does that not register at all with you? You're responding with a politician's deflection and, as the polisci geek, I'm offended. uhuh

I'm not arguing that Kenobi is superior to the brothers or anything like that. Merely that his performance against the brothers was better than Savage's against the Jedi. So your Anakin point it moot.

As for you Grievous point, once again I'm not saying Kenobi is superior. However, retreating typically signifies defeat. And yes, I would say Kenobi was bested by Grievous in that encounter.

He was hit badly, not saying otherwise. What I am saying is that he won unlike Savage did against the two Jedi.

But Kenobi has never defeated Maul though.

I'd recommend watching TPM. Some pretty cool Palpatine scenes in there.

Originally posted by ares834
Some pretty cool Palpatine scenes in there.

As if there's any other kind.

lol

What about those boring as watching shit dry Senate scenes?

Did you Opress haters remember my comment that Savage would be punished severely had he really given in and killed Kenobi on Florrum against his wishes? He could've impaled him against the wall but they just wanted to pressure him until he lost the will to fight and dropped his sabers, most likely

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP used to vehemently repeat the same thing but finally conceded the logic of my argument. All Filoni says is that Obi-Wan wasn't going to lose that duel in that situation.

Not to mention that "that duel" ended with Maul KO'ing Obi-Wan with a Force b1tchslap when sufficiently motivated.

Then Shadow Conspiracy outright states the crowded environment hindered the brothers. Then you have the fact that Maul sought Kenobi's surrender, not to mention his confession in "The Lawless" that he never planned on killing Obi-Wan.

I don't know why we should take an outlier feat for Obi-Wan as the norm when the Obi-Wan camp outright refuses to give the same consideration to the outlier feat in season 3 when Savage embarrassed Obi-Wan and Anakin together.

The same Savage who has "only grown more powerful" since leaving Dooku's service per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Camp Kenobi's argument hinges on lies and double standards. I can accept Obi-Wan being better than Savage and equal to Maul as a duelist, but Maul is unquestionably the more powerful and skilled Force user.

Honestly we've been over this several times. I will concede that Maul is a superior force user, but I do believe Obi-Wan is a better duelist than Maul. And with Obi-Wan and Anakin, its different, Kenobi and Skywalker walked away with all their limbs intact and no permanent injuries. Savage walked away without an arm and a leg broken.

To me, trying to argue that Maul's saber is better than Kenobi is almost as bad as those trying to state that TPM Kenobi is >Maul.

It's like in fencing. Obi-Wan and Maul and Savage were in a fencing match and in round 1 Kenobi got forced back that doesn't mean that he loses points. In round 2 Kenobi lands blows on his opposition which is what he did against Savage, when it comes to all out (or the way how it'd be judged) Kenobi would score a technical win.

Yes Savage and Maul were at a disadvantage in an enclosed space. But Kenobi was already at an even greater disadvantage because it was 2v1. This to me just proves that Kenobi is a faster, more intelligent, and more adaptable and to an extent superior swordsman to Maul.

Force Mastery it goes the other way though. In all out Kenobi barely edges out Maul.

Originally posted by ares834
I'd recommend watching TPM. Some pretty cool Palpatine scenes in there.

When I was younger the Prequels were great. But now that I am older I can't bare the acting and bad writing. Palpatine is very obviously making powerplays and the Jedi and everyone else who's wise do shit all to stop it.

AOTCs is the worst offender.
"The Senate must grant the chancellor emergency powers"
"If only Senator Amidala were here."
"Meesa can do that."
Jedi Masters: Seems legit.

Yeah, AotC is bad. It's the only Star Wars film I actually dislike.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I have to agree with KT on this one. Kenobi's fight against Maul and Opress was a win for Kenobi. That being said, Kenobi certainly isn't far above Maul. But he is above him if we go by showings especially considering Maul's only win against Kenobi was when the latter was tired and exhausted.


Yeah but we shouldn't just go by Maul vs Kenobi fights. We should go by all the fights involving Maul, Opress, Kenobi, Skywalker and Ventress.

If we do that then it seems to me that overall in terms of power: Skywalker > Maul > Kenobi/Opress >/= Ventress.

And yes I'm putting Kenobi and Opress approx on par. Kenobi is obviously the superior duelist(at least on par with Maul), but Opress is undoubtedly much more powerful in the Force and physically much much stronger.

Whilst I can't give either of Kenobi or Opress more than an edge over Ventress given the past duels of Kenobi vs Ventress.

Originally posted by ares834


I'm not arguing that Kenobi is superior to the brothers or anything like that. Merely that his performance against the brothers was better than Savage's against the Jedi.


That's not the point. The point is why are we continually taking Kenobi's performance agianst the Brothers as the norm, but claiming Opress' performance against Skywalker and Kenobi was a one-off?

As for a comparison between the 2 performances, Kenobi's Saber performance was obviously better, whilst Opress's Force TK showings were far superior. Whilst Opress had other distractions too - the droid army out to kill him.

As for Opress not actually defeating them both- Aside from the Droid distractions, if Opress did manage to defeat them both, it would have been a feat well above what Kenobi managed, seen as even Count Dooku seems unable to defeat Skywalker.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP used to vehemently repeat the same thing but finally conceded the logic of my argument. All Filoni says is that Obi-Wan wasn't going to lose that duel in that situation.

Not to mention that "that duel" ended with Maul KO'ing Obi-Wan with a Force b1tchslap when sufficiently motivated.

Then Shadow Conspiracy outright states the crowded environment hindered the brothers. Then you have the fact that Maul sought Kenobi's surrender, not to mention his confession in "The Lawless" that he never planned on killing Obi-Wan.

I don't know why we should take an outlier feat for Obi-Wan as the norm when the Obi-Wan camp outright refuses to give the same consideration to the outlier feat in season 3 when Savage embarrassed Obi-Wan and Anakin together.

The same Savage who has "only grown more powerful" since leaving Dooku's service per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Camp Kenobi's argument hinges on lies and double standards. I can accept Obi-Wan being better than Savage and equal to Maul as a duelist, but Maul is unquestionably the more powerful and skilled Force user.

You tried this same argument before and I promptly put it to rest. You tried to argue that it was a circumstancial win for Kenobi which is totally false. You tried to cite Kenobi being focused as a reason... to which I say... It's much easier for a jedi.. a high end jedi to get focus. Regular humas can do it very easily and thsu a jedi can do it even easier. Thus, that isn't as circumstancial as you make it out to be. Kenobi can very easily get focused and repeat the same performance.

Then you tried to claim the surroundings aided kenobi and thsu that was another cicumstance that allowed him to win. Not only is that missing the point but it's being obtuse for no other reason than being obtuse. Kenobi was at a BIGGER disandvantage and thus whatever disadvantage you're tryign to claim becomes moot. Further, as I've shown in real life situations.... fighting in an enclosed area is never good for somebody fighting two people or more. The brothers had the numbers advantage and a tactical advantage and still got tooled.

The realiity is.. Kenobi holds the most decisive victory over maul than vice versa and there is no getting around this point. As a Padawan.... he turned maul into a midget. As he get better he beat him and his brother together. That is a outier at all as he has more impressive perfomances than Maul or Savage. Beating SIth Anakin for one is more impressive than beating the brothers. Kenobi is just that good that with proper focus these are the kinda things he can do.

lmao

Not going to rehash it out with you KT... DP has recanted and ares admits Obi-Wan isn't likely to do it again... that's enough for me.

The only thing that needs to be put to rest is your hard-on for Obi-Wan lmao...

lmao...

I do have a hard on for kenobi.. but luckily enough, logic and his feats are on my side. Kenobi is superior to maul and has demonstrated as much on numerous occasions.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I do have a hard on for kenobi..

Alec or Ewan?

lmao

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP used to vehemently repeat the same thing but finally conceded the logic of my argument. All Filoni says is that Obi-Wan wasn't going to lose that duel in that situation.

Not to mention that "that duel" ended with Maul KO'ing Obi-Wan with a Force b1tchslap when sufficiently motivated.

Then Shadow Conspiracy outright states the crowded environment hindered the brothers. Then you have the fact that Maul sought Kenobi's surrender, not to mention his confession in "The Lawless" that he never planned on killing Obi-Wan.

I don't know why we should take an outlier feat for Obi-Wan as the norm when the Obi-Wan camp outright refuses to give the same consideration to the outlier feat in season 3 when Savage embarrassed Obi-Wan and Anakin together.

The same Savage who has "only grown more powerful" since leaving Dooku's service per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Camp Kenobi's argument hinges on lies and double standards. I can accept Obi-Wan being better than Savage and equal to Maul as a duelist, but Maul is unquestionably the more powerful and skilled Force user.

You are taking his words out of context. Filoni explicitly states that Kenobi wasn't going to lose that duel because he was really focused and becomes even more focused when Adi Gallia dies. Filoni also makes a point of noting that Kenobi is an exceptionally skilled swordsman during this same commentary. So stop dismissing the feat as pure luck. The Savage situation doesn't have commentary from the director stating that Kenobi was essentially in the zone and not influenced by PIS, CIS, or being exhausted.

The only other duel we have with Kenobi and Maul, Maul cannot defeat him after an extended duel even after taking advantage of Obi-Wan's fragile mental state.

The fact that Maul, who is generally a silent combatant, resorted to Dun Moch on an already emotionally tattered and physically weak Kenobi to gain an edge, damns the concept that Maul is a superior duelist to him. Why would Maul deviate from his normal repertoire of techniques aside from the fact that he was facing a superior opponent.

As for why Savage's feats are different. They are, Savage was at an impasse with Kenobi and Skywalker. Not once were their lives in danger, neither party had any lasting injuries. Also throughout the Clone Wars series we have scenarios where Kenobi and Skywalker don't go all out against their opponents. Like Barriss and Skywalker for example.

This is different because the team who made it specifically made it a point to note that Kenobi's performance is what Kenobi can do when he is focused.

Doesn't mean he could replicate it all the time in any arena. But it does in my opinion put Kenobi above Maul in sabers. Not to mention that in the duel outside the cave earlier Kenobi landed a kick on Maul that disabled him long enough for him to go and nearly KO Savage.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are taking his words out of context. Filoni explicitly states that Kenobi wasn't going to lose that duel because he was really focused and becomes even more focused when Adi Gallia dies.

So he was exceptionally focused in that duel. I.e. It was a peak performance for him.

He also notes Kenobi won't lose "In That Fight, In That Situation," which also suggests it's context specific. The proof is he says the exact same thing about Kenobi and Ventress losing to the Brothers in the prior episode saying They were going to lose "In That Fight In That Situation."


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Filoni also makes a point of noting that Kenobi is an exceptionally skilled swordsman during this same commentary.

True but according to all sources, so is Maul.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So stop dismissing the feat as pure luck.


I don't think he's calling it "luck." He's just saying Kenobi is not the only one to have outfought multiple opponents, each one in his own league, before. In fact Opress has overpowered Kenobi and Skywalker together.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Savage situation doesn't have commentary from the director stating that Kenobi was essentially in the zone and not influenced by PIS, CIS, or being exhausted.


So the commentary makes Kenobi's the superior feat?

But the episode commentary on the official site states:

Savage finally finds his strength and attacks both Asajj and Dooku with a Force choke, hurling them against a wall.

Savage is engaged in a heated lightsaber battle with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the frigate hangar.

So seems like Savage was also "in the zone" and legitimately fighting them both off.

The fact that he floored them twice with Force Pulses suggests he was overpowering them both as well. In fact in the last scene they are both completely flattened to the floor with weapons deignited. If not for the droids he may have been able to take advantage and kill one of them.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only other duel we have with Kenobi and Maul, Maul cannot defeat him after an extended duel even after taking advantage of Obi-Wan's fragile mental state.

The fact that Maul, who is generally a silent combatant, resorted to Dun Moch on an already emotionally tattered and physically weak Kenobi to gain an edge, damns the concept that Maul is a superior duelist to him. Why would Maul deviate from his normal repertoire of techniques aside from the fact that he was facing a superior opponent.

It was Maul's first fight in over 10 years. Plus his first fight in those new legs. Earlier that episode Maul was having trouble picking up his own Lightsaber.

Besides in the next fight Kenobi mocks Maul for stooping from Sith Lord to Pirate. Does that mean Kenobi knows he can't best Maul without over frustrating him first?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As for why Savage's feats are different. They are, Savage was at an impasse with Kenobi and Skywalker. Not once were their lives in danger, neither party had any lasting injuries. Also throughout the Clone Wars series we have scenarios where Kenobi and Skywalker don't go all out against their opponents. Like Barriss and Skywalker for example.

See above.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is different because the team who made it specifically made it a point to note that Kenobi's performance is what Kenobi can do when he is focused.

Yeah and they had him ready and focused in his first one on one with Maul. And that was a pretty intense and evenly fought fight which went on for a while.

He was then "even more focused" after Adi's death suggests some kind of Peak Performance.

Now the question is were Maul and Opress also giving their Peak Performance in the cave? Sure didn't seem like it. Not one of those deadly Force Repulse's from Opress, and none of the acrobatics that are Maul's signature.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not to mention that in the duel outside the cave earlier Kenobi landed a kick on Maul that disabled him long enough for him to go and nearly KO Savage.

It didn't disable him. It separated him so he could go help Adi. That was a long fought and pretty even Saber Fight between Maul and Kenobi before Adi died.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I do have a hard on for kenobi.. but luckily enough, logic and his feats are on my side. Kenobi is superior to maul and has demonstrated as much on numerous occasions.

When? And how does that have anything to do with Maul being on his team?

^ LOL I completely forgot they're on the same team here!

Back on topic Skywalker and Opress are more powerful than Maul and Kenobi.

Being more focused ISN'T a peak performance for a Jedi of the calibur of Kenobi.. that is almost an everyday thing. Nobody has pointed out anything cirucmstancial about Kenobi winning.

In all honesty, I think they are all equal in their skill divisions--Anakin's expert edge-cutting swordsmanship and zone-phasing, Savage Opress's unmatchable (in this situation, anyway) command of the Force and complete physical strength, Kenobi's defense mastery, resourcefulness and experience, and Maul's focus on about everything a Sith uses

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Being more focused ISN'T a peak performance for a Jedi of the calibur of Kenobi.. that is almost an everyday thing. Nobody has pointed out anything cirucmstancial about Kenobi winning.

Forget that Maul and Savage didn't want Obi-Wan dead, even though they had several openings on him?

They may not have wanted to kill him, but they sure as hell didn't seem to be pulling their punches.

I am entrusting DP with the right to speak on my behalf as it pertains to this discussion.

DP, do not fail me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So he was exceptionally focused in that duel. I.e. It was a peak performance for him.

Exactly. In the battledome we assume people are in peak condition for battles.



I am not denying it isn't contextual. Nor am I suggesting Kenobi could replicate that feat in a non enclosed environment. But what I am saying is that you can't





Yeah which is why I say Kenobi is a slightly superior combatant.





Except Savage didn't outfight them, and didn't leave them with any permanent wounds, nor did he force them into retreat.







Where does it say that he was winning that battle though? If anything that commentary suggest that they were at an impasse at best rather than Savage was winning.



No it doesn't. And it certainly doesn't lean to Savage being a superior swordsman. A rage empowered desperate Savage using powerful force waves to floor an unsuspecting Kenobi and Skywalker is hardly surprising. Sith also are more powerful when they are desperate, which given Savage being punctured by multiple blaster shots, I'd say he was.





Fair, but the time gap between that and his duel is questionable.



Except that throughout the Clone Wars Kenobi always engages in what is essentially Jedi Dun Moch.




Which culminated in Kenobi landing a drop kick on Maul. If we're going to give a win to Savage for a force push that knocked back Kenobi and Skywalker, then you have to also give Kenobi a win for that kick.



Which is what we typically use in a versus forum.


Please Maul didn't use acrobatics once since his revival. His entire fighting style changed. They couldn't use their force powers in that environment.

Again I don't think you are getting my point. In raw swordsmanship Kenobi is superior to the Maul brothers. If you throw in their respective force mastery they would dominate him



Arguing that Savage was beating Kenobi and Skywalker because he got in a Force Repulse, is just as ludicrous as me arguing Kenobi won because he got in a kick in that duel.

Imagine what would happen to Obi-Wan and Anakin if the droids didn't show up, gg

What would have happened?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmuuuurder?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Exactly. In the battledome we assume people are in peak condition for battles.


Do we? So do we use the Ventress who Force Choked Kenobi and Skywalker together?

Not being funny, I'm generally curious.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not denying it isn't contextual. Nor am I suggesting Kenobi could replicate that feat in a non enclosed environment. But what I am saying is that you can't

I think you need to finish this sentence.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yeah which is why I say Kenobi is a slightly superior combatant.

I actually don't have an issue with calling Kenobi a slightly superior swordsman to Maul. As long as we agree they are relatively on par in that respect.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except Savage didn't outfight them, and didn't leave them with any permanent wounds, nor did he force them into retreat.


1. I would call flooring them twice outfighting them personally.
2. Is a combatants prowess decided by how many wounds he leaves?
3. Well it would be pretty amazing if he did considering he had a small droid army out to kill him on top of the Jedi fighting him.






Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Where does it say that he was winning that battle though? If anything that commentary suggest that they were at an impasse at best rather than Savage was winning.

So isn't reaching an impasse against both Skywalker and Kenobi impressive?




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it doesn't. And it certainly doesn't lean to Savage being a superior swordsman. A rage empowered desperate Savage using powerful force waves to floor an unsuspecting Kenobi and Skywalker is hardly surprising. Sith also are more powerful when they are desperate, which given Savage being punctured by multiple blaster shots, I'd say he was.

1. I never claimed Opress was a superior swordsman. It's his Force TK, backed by his physical strength that makes him dangerous.
2. A bit silly if Kenobi and Skywalker were caught off guard considering they are the ones who kept hunting him, and Opress force waves them about 3 times in that episode. He even force pushed their ship off a cliff, so they were well aware of his TK power.
3. Fair. So that was his peak performance right?





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair, but the time gap between that and his duel is questionable.

It was his first Saber fight in over 10 years and in his new legs. He was obviously not going to be on form. In fact Maul clearly had to fight for a while before he got back into it. Kenobi was even winning at first.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except that throughout the Clone Wars Kenobi always engages in what is essentially Jedi Dun Moch.

So they've used Dun Moch on each other. What's the big deal?

Anyway I'll show you the scene in a second when the tide of that fight began to turn, and it was before the Dun Moch. But I agree Kenobi was winning it at first, and would have won if not distracted by Ventress losing her fight.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Which culminated in Kenobi landing a drop kick on Maul. If we're going to give a win to Savage for a force push that knocked back Kenobi and Skywalker, then you have to also give Kenobi a win for that kick.


Big difference. Opress completely floored the Jedi and left them with their weapons deignited. So it was a good opportunity to wound/kill at least one of them.

Maul was just pushed back (still holding his weapon fully ignited) so Kenobi could get away from that intensely fought battle to go help Adi. That didn't really look like an opportunity for Kenobi to do much to Maul.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Please Maul didn't use acrobatics once since his revival. His entire fighting style changed. They couldn't use their force powers in that environment.

Agree about the environment. As for Maul's fighting style this is on his bio from the official site:

A relentless and acrobatic warrior with an extremely dangerous double-ended lightsaber

And he uses acrobatics here when the fight begins to turn between him and Kenobi:
Check 1:16-1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJiphrbLyg

Btw rewatching that fight at Kenobi could have won at 1:01 and 1:08 (he's shown at 1:13 to still be floored). Like I said it took time for Maul to start fighting in form again after 10+years. But that's exactly the kind of thing that counts as a win to me. It would be a win if not for distractions.

And again Acrobatics and Really good Maneuvarability when he puts up his best perfromance against Sidious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxe0tmOmXi0

At 3:19 and 3:23.

So yeah in the Revival 2 on 1 when we have Kenobi being the one doing all the amazing maneuvering and acrobatics, with Maul just being a big brute, then I do tend to think it was a peak performance for Kenobi, but not for Maul. His last fight with Sidious was probably Maul's best performance, so Maul fighting like that vs Kenobi fighting the way he was in Revival would likely be a damn good Saber fight.

Originally posted by ares834


They may not have wanted to kill him, but they sure as hell didn't seem to be pulling their punches.

It's not really about that (although Maul did ask Kenobi to surrender, something Anakin and Obi-Wan never asked Opress to do), but I'd say it's more to do with Kenobi fighting at his best while the Brothers clearly were not, partly due to the environment and partly due to the circumstances.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
I am entrusting DP with the right to speak on my behalf as it pertains to this discussion.

DP, do not fail me.


ahah
Can't take you seriously with that sig.

Kenobi is maul superior and there is no getting around this fact. he has beaten him in the most decisive of any of their fights... he has beaten better people than Maul has.. as well as having the better feats in general. There is liteally no way to say Maul is his superior based on canon material. They are close sure, but Kenobi has the edge and there can be no denying this fact.

Yes there is...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ahah
Can't take you seriously with that sig.


Tempest has a sig???

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do we? So do we use the Ventress who Force Choked Kenobi and Skywalker together?

Not being funny, I'm generally curious.

We should, considering state of mind shouldn't really influence a character in the scenarios we put them in. But her choking Kenobi and Skywalker, I think largely plays into their belief that she was defeated.



You can't throw out or dismiss the feat entirely...is where I think I was going with that.





Eh. He's a superior swordsman to Maul, but Maul is the superior force user, making them even.









1. I do not. He caught them off guard with a force wave. Big deal.

2. Yeah. That's the way how it works in fencing.

3. It would be pretty amazing. But it ultimately wasn't.




No because the impasse wasn't very long. Nor were Kenobi and Skywalker particularly intent on killing him.






He is dangerous. On that we can agree.



So? They got up shortly after.



I'd say so. It's still impressive regarding the circumstances.







That's true. But I'd imagine Jedi and Sith's muscle memory is even better than normal people. In otherwords you get into the swing of things really fast. Also at the start of the duel Kenobi was using an unfamiliar saber.






Maul was deviating from his standard repertoire.



Right, in spite of using an unfamiliar saber Kenobi was winning.








Prove they could not have reacted to an attack at that point. It takes a fraction of a second to reignite a lightsaber.



It was still a blow landed. Which is more than I can say for Maul at that point.







That clearly is in reference to before he died because it says with an extremely dangerous double ended lightsaber.


I am not denying he uses acrobatics but its not like a central part of his fighting style in TCWs. He's no Yoda.


There are some acrobatics. But again it doesn't seem like its an integral part of his form anymore. Maul to my knowledge isn't even an Ataru user.



It would be a good saber fight, but I think Kenobi would win. Throw in the force and its even closer with Kenobi edging out the win.

Tell me... who is the best person Maul has DECISIVELY bested in combat?

Qui Gon Jinn -trollface-

Darth Vader. -trollface-

A clone of maul beating somebody isn't interchangeable with the real thing.. sorry not a good example... to say nothing of the fact that Kenobi beat a better version of Vader

Jinn - Meh... after his master was killed Padawan Kenobi turned maul into a midget minutes later... Hardly a great example to use.

Anything else?

Vader, Jinn, Bondara... Maul beat them all. Obi-Wan has beaten Ventress and Grievous.

So he hasn't beaten anybody of the calibur Kenobi has then? Why not just say that?

The vader win was a CLONE... regular maul doesn't get full credit for such a victory.. shit he'd be lucky to get half credit for it. Jinn.. as stated... after Jinn did.. padawan kenobi wtf pwned Maul into a pint sized red devil. The fact remains and there is no getting aroudn this fact... that Kenobi has beaten the better people including Maul himself. Feats say Kenobi is greater and he is.

Jinn is better than Grievous and at least very close to being Ventress' equal. Bondara is very good. Vader is good.

Not to mention, they stalemated in ''Revival'', and Maul was unquestionable holding back; ''I never planned on killing you''.

That aside, Maul is more trained, knows various martial techniques, has mastered more forms, has greater pain endurance, is at least as fast, stronger, more powerful, more aggressive...

Maul never actually defeated Bondara, although he pressed him as hard as he could he couldn't actually penetrate his guard. Bondara sacrificed himself to stop him, but because of that and the vagueness of the duel its impossible to judge if Maul truly was superior in terms of bladework or simply more powerful.

Pretty sure Bondara knew he was outmatched and hoped that the explosion could take Maul with him.

Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Jinn is better than Grievous and at least very close to being Ventress' equal. Bondara is very good. Vader is good.

Not to mention, they stalemated in ''Revival'', and Maul was unquestionable holding back; ''I never planned on killing you''.

That aside, Maul is more trained, knows various martial techniques, has mastered more forms, has greater pain endurance, is at least as fast, stronger, more powerful, more aggressive...

So nothing still?

Maul isn't faster because he ws unable to react to Kenobi on lower ground flying in the air.. calling his saber over.. igniting it and cutting him in half. This was Padawan kenobi mind you. I would say Kenobi is faster. Kenobi is also the better tactician.. smarter... better with a saber.. mentally superior... What are you basing the Stronger on? Who gives two shits what his pain tolerance is anyways.. that has next to no bearing on a vs fight.

Kenobi beating Anakin is greater than anything Maul has done. There is no disputing and I'm awaiting your concession on this point... That kenobi has beaten the better people including maul himself.. correct?

Also Grievous himself is very close to being Ventress' equal, so Jinn being better than him would put him on her level. I doubt he actually is better than Grievous though.

Now remember KT: gentle strokes. Otherwise Old Ben might inspire some friction burns on your junk.

No... pointing out how Maul failed to react to Kenobi's attack in TPM is as poor an argument as you can make.

Kenobi's not a better tactican and not smarter. Not better with a saber, not mentally superior...

Maul has destroyed droids and bodyguards with his bare hands as an example of strength.

Pain tolerance is just another point where Maul edges it out...

No it isn't.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
-snip-


Being floored and facing the floor with weapons deignited is hardly an advantageous position in a fight. In fact even having your back facing your opponent is a very dangerous position to be in a fight.

So from what we saw Opress was winning getting in those Powerful TK blows. Whilst Skywalker and Kenobi were not getting any blows on Opress whatsoever.

Of course Maul's no Yoda or Sidious in his acrobatics, but when I see him fight more like an Opress type brute, then it's natural to think either the Environment was limiting him due to his size, or he wasn't in peak form yet.

I don't see how Kenobi having an unfamiliar Saber is supposed to put him at more of a disadvantage than Maul who had unfamiliar legs, and was 10+ years out of practice. Also Maul was also using his half Saber, not the weapon he was accustomed to 10+years ago.

I strongly disagree that Kenobi would edge out Maul in an all out. I see him possibly edging out Maul in Sabers, but honestly that's it. Maul seems to be more powerful in the Force and I'd give him the majority in an all out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest has a sig???

Not sig, I meant his Sidious pic.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being floored and facing the floor with weapons deignited is hardly an advantageous position in a fight. In fact even having your back facing your opponent is a very dangerous position to be in a fight.

I strongly disagree that Kenobi would edge out Maul in an all out. I see him possibly edging out Maul in Sabers, but honestly that's it. Maul seems to be more powerful in the Force and I'd give him the majority in an all out.



Not sig, I meant his Sidious pic.


But didn't you actually point out a bit where Obi-Wan had Maul in the same position and likely could have killed him? Is that different from the Savage example?



Ah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But didn't you actually point out a bit where Obi-Wan had Maul in the same position and likely could have killed him? Is that different from the Savage example?


.

Yeah I've admitted in Revenge where Kenobi had Maul in the same position he probably would have won if not for having to look out for Ventress.

If not he was at least outfighting him and in the winning position.

Where I disagree is him kicking Maul in Revival being the same thing. Just kicking someone back is not necessarily winning at all. In fact it was just a move used to separate Maul from him, and it served it's purpose in that scenario.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being floored and facing the floor with weapons deignited is hardly an advantageous position in a fight. In fact even having your back facing your opponent is a very dangerous position to be in a fight.

So from what we saw Opress was winning getting in those Powerful TK blows. Whilst Skywalker and Kenobi were not getting any blows on Opress whatsoever.

Of course Maul's no Yoda or Sidious in his acrobatics, but when I see him fight more like an Opress type brute, then it's natural to think either the Environment was limiting him due to his size, or he wasn't in peak form yet.

I don't see how Kenobi having an unfamiliar Saber is supposed to put him at more of a disadvantage than Maul who had unfamiliar legs, and was 10+ years out of practice. Also Maul was also using his half Saber, not the weapon he was accustomed to 10+years ago.

I strongly disagree that Kenobi would edge out Maul in an all out. I see him possibly edging out Maul in Sabers, but honestly that's it. Maul seems to be more powerful in the Force and I'd give him the majority in an all out.



Not sig, I meant his Sidious pic.
"This weapon is your life."
A lightsaber is often compared to a limb of a Jedi. They spend a great amount of time crafting it to be an extension of themselves. So when you just give them some rando lightsaber it is not nearly the same for dueling.

Jedi have FTL reaction speeds and can move at a speed that makes them untraceable to the untrained eye, and you expect me to believe that they couldn't turn around and block a lightsaber strike? I highly doubt that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I've admitted in Revenge where Kenobi had Maul in the same position he probably would have won if not for having to look out for Ventress.

If not he was at least outfighting him and in the winning position.

Where I disagree is him kicking Maul in Revival being the same thing. Just kicking someone back is not necessarily winning at all. In fact it was just a move used to separate Maul from him, and it served it's purpose in that scenario.
I am not arguing that. I am trying to point out the ridiculousness of comparing Savage's feat to Kenobi's.

That this is still being discussed is slowly draining what little faith in humanity I have left.

Karpyshyn's confirmation to Intrepid37 of my 2 year interpretation of Vitiate is proof enough that when it comes to discerning facts from this bullshit, I am the Master.

Those who oppose me are wise to lay down their arms and accept my infallibility.

Nah.

Dat infallibility biscuits

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dat infallibility biscuits

Being right all the time can be burdensome.

You have no idea how amusing I found it that the object of worship for the SWTOR cult ended up confirming my interpretation.

It'd be like conservative Christians finding out Jesus was pro-choice.

I've always said that Karpyshan is a sub-par writer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've always said that Karpyshan is a sub-par writer.

That's putting it delicately.

BTW, you actually agreed with me on Vitiate and the ritual stuff a long while back; do you remember?

Shame you jumped ship from my luxury cruise liner to the sinking SWTOR galleon. That's not quite what I meant when I told you to go down. uhuh

And yet you gave Revan a 7/10 when you first read it. he

Yeah. I debated with you against Legend as I recall. I changed my mind.

Hey, gotta give Karpyshyn points for singlehandedly driving the Revan bandwagon off a cliff.

Yeah. And went from right to wrong just like that. Maybe you shouldn't have gotten so enamored with the character and the game.

While still claiming he's more powerful than Nihilus.

The games great. I don't see why you hate it when its literally Kotor except bigger.

From a certain point of view.

Because rather than do something truly original and interesting with the unexplored timeframe and extraordinary budget, it desperately clutches to the vastly more important story of the films in a gratuitous and offensive way.

Don't insult KotOR by comparing it to TOR.

Karpyshan wrote KotOR and the Jedi Knight campaign in TOR. awepeach

They're pretty comparable. Both Bioware games, nearly the same setting, numerous call-backs to Kotor, companions and lots of other things you liked in Kotor!

Karpyshyn nailed KotOR. Everything else he's touched absolutely sucks, though.

I'm sure TOR isn't completely irredeemable. But the central storyline blows. A complete waste of time, money, and "talent."

There are 8 central storylines. If you don't like Vitiate, play as a Consular or an Agent. :P

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Being right all the time can be burdensome.

You have no idea how amusing I found it that the object of worship for the SWTOR cult ended up confirming my interpretation.

It'd be like conservative Christians finding out Jesus was pro-choice.

Jesus was pro-choice http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/kruemelmonster.gif

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"This weapon is your life."
A lightsaber is often compared to a limb of a Jedi. They spend a great amount of time crafting it to be an extension of themselves. So when you just give them some rando lightsaber it is not nearly the same for dueling.

So Kenobi and Skywalker were at a huge disadvantage when facing Dooku in AOTC?

It's not ideal but I don't think it's the huge disadvantage your making it out to be. Kenobi was actually fighting better when he had Ventress's Saber. Kenobi probably gave the best performance of his career with his and Adi Gallia's Saber. Not to mention Barriss Offee gave Skywalker hell with Ventress's Lightsabers.

And like I've already brought up, Maul wasn't accustomed to his cut up weapon. So by that argument both Maul and Kenobi were facing that same disadvantage. In fact Maul never made his own Lightsaber again for the rest of TCW. So was he at a huge disadvanatge the whole time?



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jedi have FTL reaction speeds and can move at a speed that makes them untraceable to the untrained eye, and you expect me to believe that they couldn't turn around and block a lightsaber strike? I highly doubt that.


I am not arguing that. I am trying to point out the ridiculousness of comparing Savage's feat to Kenobi's.


Not saying they don't have the speed feats to do it. Not even saying it was a guaranteed win. But being knocked around tends to make one react slightly slower. Besides Opress can also move/react that fast, but he wasn't facing the disadvantage of having his Saber off, being floored and having his back towards his opponents.
Besides if your not buying this theory, then why are you claiming Kenobi was winning the fight in Revenge before he helped Ventress?



It's really not that ridiculous. Considering Opress was actually facing more powerful opponents (since Skywalker is clearly the most powerful of these guys), and Kenobi didn't have anyone else trying to kill him. So the chances of a result (disabling one of them) was obviously higher in Kenobi's situation.

And whilst Kenobi showed clear superiority in Saber Prowess over his opponents, Opress showed clear superiority in Force Power over his opponents. And whilst the Brothers put Kenobi on his ass twice in the Revival fight(including the end of the fight) Skyaalker/Kenobi didn't manage to lay any hit on Opress at all, let alone leaving him on his ass.