RotS Anakin vs Satele Shan (Hope trailer)

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
By ROTS Anakin is trouncing foes like Dooku.
It is apparent from canonical revelations that this particular encounter have circumstances attached to it. And Anakin didn't actually WTFpwn Dooku with his Force abilities; never managed to.

Based on the showing you cited here, Anakin should utterly demolish Dooku even with his sheer Force abilities.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace Windu himself states that Anakin is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive. So if he can be argued to be the most powerful Jedi in its golden age, the idea that Satele Shan in her knighthood could defeat him is downright laughable.
Windu may have been referring to Anakin's potential but he apparently worded his perception in a more vague sense. Characters in Star Wars are just as much prone to inaccuracy as people are in real life about stuff.

Satele have much more impressive showings then Anakin in (type of) mediums in which both characters are directly comparable. In this context, Satele is supposed to be superior to Anakin in general.

Also, Satele (Jedi Knight) utterly humiliated Malgus with her Force abilities, who in turn, survived collapse of two buildings around his landing position with his Force abilities and proceeded to defeat another immensely formidable opposition even in a state of being heavily injured. This event indicates that even examples of incredible display of raw power are not helping your case in this debate. Anakin may not stand a chance against Malgus, let alone Satele.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Make this Grand Master Satele Shan and she goes down with a much harder fight.
See above!

Satele & Malgus > Anakin

Deal with it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
@Legend

You don't get to decide what is and is not canon. And considering the entirety of the SWTOR universe is C-canon (in other words on par with the comic link I just posted) that feat of Anakin's is just as canon as your precious Satele's very existence.
The argument here is not about nature of canon but nature of the mediums. It is not possible to compare Satele with Anakin in all kinds of mediums. Anakin benefits from being overhyped in highly unrealistic mediums while Satele have never been featured in mediums of such nature so we do not have an idea of how far authors can go at depicting the might of Satele in the context of creative liberties in low budget mediums.

However, Malgus's performance against immensely formidable opposition not long after the events depicted in Hope trailer is actually favoring my position in this debate.

As per your reasoning, Galen should have utterly dominated Vader in single combat but the latter didn't turn out to be walk in the park for the former. Galen did defeat Vader but after decent effort.

However, Anakin, doesn't have luxury of being Galen in this particular hypothetical duel.

ares834

Originally posted by Master Han

My personal opinion would be:

1. Anakin
2. Shan
3. Anakin

thumb up

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
My personal opinion would be:

1. Anakin
2. Shan
3. Anakin
You should realize that:

1. Satele is also extraordinarily skilled in martial aspects of combat; apparently considerably superior than several individuals identified in literature as among finest swordsmen in history but comparatively fall short in visual depictions in high budget mediums, thus making a direct comparison possible in visual context.

2. Can block lightsaber strike with bare hands (Revealing that Satele is not helpless even in most dire situations of combat).

Their is no guarantee that Anakin can win in any aspect of this encounter.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Excuse me?

Dooku got stomped by Zoneakin.

Character assessments>Your assessments unless otherwise stated in canon. And a crying mentally confused Anakin trying to kill his father figure does not compare to in the zone Anakin.

CGI is not a comparable medium to film.

Dooku wasn't disadvantaged due to his age. Throughout the Clone Wars he showed the ability to repeatedly humiliate and crush those younger than him.

Considering earlier in the aforementioned duel the Count engaged in a saber lock with Skywalker and Kenobi single handed, I highly doubt Satele or Malgus have a considerable if any edge on Dooku. And they certainly don't have one on Skywalker.

Prove Malgus or Satele have more raw power than Skywalker or even Dooku.

A SWTOR high tier is going to defeat a PT top tier when the PT is confirmed to be above SWTOR eral. Lol.

Also I don't even consider knight Satele to be a SWTOR high tier, more like mid-tier.

Even in non-exaggerated sources Skywalker is superior. He rips down the statue near the temple entrance and uses it to break down the main door. That is>anything Satele has ever done.

It's canon. It happened. Your vaunted attempts at devaluing source materials to advance characters you have a preference for (SWTOR characters) has been noted throughout your history of posting here. At this point it's just gotten ridiculous.

Again that does not Galen is weaker because he didn't walk all over these combatants, it just means the combatants are stronger.

Kao Cen Darach is stated to be "unmatched by his contemporaries." Which means absolutely nothing in the

Do tell me how an obscure source depicts Malgus as superior to the Chosen One in his prime.

I highly doubt that.

What's your point? Fancy retelling of events I am already familiar with do not help your case.

It isn't. Not with Starkiller using TK to fire a cannon, Yoda smashing two C-9979 transports together with a gesture, Darth Nihilus ripping his fleet from orbit, and Tulak Hord ripping a battlecruiser from orbit. Also that hardly was a cliff. More like a rock formation.

Ahh such an impressive feat with half the Jedi Council dead. The fact that Orgus Din, a man who got his ass handed to him by a Darth who wasn't even on the council was considered one of their greatest swordsmen speaks wonders to the condition of the Jedi Order as of the start of SWTOR.

The Jedi Orders powerhouses were Satele, Tol Braga, and Jaric Kaedan. The rest of the Council were pretty pathetic in terms of martial prowess.

Clearly you don't understand how canon works. You don't have the authority to ignore canon feats and statements and dismiss them as non-canon. These comics are C-Canon and until Lucasarts, Disney, or Leeland Chee says that they aren't canon, they are canon as are the events and feats in them. Deal with it.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
By ROTS Anakin is trouncing foes like Dooku. Mace Windu himself states that Anakin is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive. So if he can be argued to be the most powerful Jedi in its golden age, the idea that Satele Shan in her knighthood could defeat him is downright laughable.

Make this Grand Master Satele Shan and she goes down with a much harder fight.

Zonakin is pretty great, yes.

Satale Shan is at her peak during her knighthood. In Swtor she says she isn't as good anymore as she was in her youth.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku got stomped by Zoneakin.
It wasn't stomp or pwnage. Also, this doesn't proves that Zonakin can achieve similar result against all other powerful adversaries.

CIP: Anakin failed to overwhelm Obi-Wan (And no! Anakin wasn't confused during this duel). This example proves that effectiveness of characters may vary in different situations.

Duel on Mustafar

Vader releases Padme from his telekinetic deathgrip to engage Obi-Wan in a fierce duel. The combatants are so focused on each other's movements that neither notices the intrepid R2-D2 hauling Padme's unconscious form back to her starship.

The battle takes Vader and Obi-Wan through the main collection plant of the old lava mine, across platforms that stretch over riverbeds of molten lava. As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way to defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases the emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.

Source: Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Pwned much? I guess so...

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Character assessments>Your assessments unless otherwise stated in canon.
This is absurd reasoning: I am a 3rd party observer and I have my observations to stick by. By default, I take the opinion of a character seriously until or unless their is a reason to doubt such an opinion. In this case, their is.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And a crying mentally confused Anakin trying to kill his father figure does not compare to in the zone Anakin.
You are utterly wrong about this! See the evidence provided above.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
CGI is not a comparable medium to film.
The cinematic trailers of SWTOR are film grade CGI products. In comparison, Star Wars films involve CGI as well (The only difference is that cinematic trailers are entirely CGI based while the films have real actors involved whose actions are CGI augmented). Direct comparison is possible between these two particular high-budget mediums.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku wasn't disadvantaged due to his age. Throughout the Clone Wars he showed the ability to repeatedly humiliate and crush those younger than him.
I never stated that Dooku couldn't defeat opponents younger then him but he is not without limitations. Aging factor can be a drawback in tedious situations and dark side practices are known to take toll on biological bodies canonically. The lore reveals that Anakin was growing more powerful with passage of time. By the time Anakin met Dooku aboard Invisible Hand, he personally boasted that his powers had doubled since the last time they met. At this point, Dooku could not afford to hang with Anakin in a prolonged lightsaber duel because this is (canonically) a very tedious aspect of combat (Dooku was eventually showing signs of aging). The best course of action for Dooku was to attempt to overwhelm Anakin early on with his Force powers in the same fashion as he did to Obi-Wan. However, he made a tactical error in his judgment under (false) assurance from Sidious. In the nutshell, Dooku's fall have circumstances attached to it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Considering earlier in the aforementioned duel the Count engaged in a saber lock with Skywalker and Kenobi single handed, I highly doubt Satele or Malgus have a considerable if any edge on Dooku. And they certainly don't have one on Skywalker.
And what Dooku did with another hand?

Satele's feat is relatively noticeably more tedious then that of Dooku's. Satele was involved in two tedious tasks; (a) holding one of the greatest (Force augmented) physical brutes at bay with one hand; and (b) simultaneously involved in ripping apart a gigantic tree from its foundation (a major action in itself).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Malgus or Satele have more raw power than Skywalker or even Dooku.
Malgus overwhelmed a Dooku level opponent much earlier (Event depicted in Return Cinematic Trailer), and he was stronger then ever before when he met Satele for the second time on Aldeeran (Event depicted in Hope Cinematic Trailer). This time, Satele literally humiliated Malgus with her Force abilities (Even though it is implied in a source that Maglus was more then a match for Satele even during this encounter and that interference of Malcom changed the situation in favor of Satele). Malgus and Satele are evidently above Dooku and Anakin hadn't reached their level of understanding of the Force yet even as of RoTS (Anakin had evidently learned to harness his immense raw power more effectively then ever before as of RoTS, but he still had much to learn).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A SWTOR high tier is going to defeat a PT top tier when the PT is confirmed to be above SWTOR eral. Lol.
The Jedi Order have NOT been canonically confirmed to be at its peak preparedness level during PT era. The affiliated Mr. Lucas's statement is in regard to progress made in development of martial aspects of combat with passage of time within the Jedi Order (If I recall correctly). This revelation still doesn't overrules the "out of touch" element of PT era Jedi Order as per existing canon revelation and neither it suggests that an SWTOR era high tier is necessarily inferior duelist then a PT era high tier.

In fact, it can be argued that the Jedi Order was at is peak effectiveness during the time of Satele in entire history (I have provided some information below in this regard).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also I don't even consider knight Satele to be a SWTOR high tier, more like mid-tier.
I cannot comment here due to lack of information.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Even in non-exaggerated sources Skywalker is superior. He rips down the statue near the temple entrance and uses it to break down the main door. That is>anything Satele has ever done.
1. Jedi Temple is a kind of nexus which is known to energies Force-users within its vicinity. Anakin may have benefitted from this setting since he knew how to use the light side to empower him.

2. You think that Satele would find such a task difficult? She ripped apart a gigantic tree with a single hand while holding off Malgus at bay with another. Gigantic trees are extremely durable and heavy natural phenomenon as well (Weighing hundreds of tons; the largest ones are known to weigh thousands of tons). This feat alone proves that she can duplicate Anakin's feat (inside the Jedi Temple) effortlessly. Therefore, your reasoning is BS.

Nephthys

You can't dismiss Orgus Din losing to Darth Angral on the grounds that Angral wasn't a Dark Council member. Angral was offered a position on the Dark Council but turned it down in disgust over the Treaty of Coruscant, so he is on that level.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zonakin is pretty great, yes.

Satale Shan is at her peak during her knighthood. In Swtor she says she isn't as good anymore as she was in her youth.

Would you like to prove that she was talking about her knighthood? When does she state this?

Because Satele is nearly 60 by the time the Cold War ends. She was only 48 when she became Grand Master.

Hang on this seems to be a gigantic plot hole based on her birthdate of 3699 BBY. Satele is supposed to be 46 at the time of the Sacking of Coruscant... confused

Anyway there's no evidence stating she was in her prime during the Battle of Alderaan. I would think she'd be in her prime around the time she became Grand Master.

Intrepid37

Kao is a better duelist than Dooku?

Lol.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Would you like to prove that she was talking about her knighthood? When does she state this?

Because Satele is nearly 60 by the time the Cold War ends. She was only 48 when she became Grand Master.

Hang on this seems to be a gigantic plot hole based on her birthdate of 3699 BBY. Satele is supposed to be 46 at the time of the Sacking of Coruscant... confused

Anyway there's no evidence stating she was in her prime during the Battle of Alderaan. I would think she'd be in her prime around the time she became Grand Master.

Its in one of the frankly dozens of times you ask her to come help you out on a mission and she says "I'm no longer the warrior I used to be in my youth" or something similar.

Satale went on a pilgrimage after the Sacking of Coruscant and the war and rediscovered Tython, which was what got her promoted to Master. Later she was again promoted to Grand Master, but I'm not sure about a timeline. The point is, she's still a Knight all the way through the war.

I would also assume she'd be at her peak as the Grand Master, but we have no knowledge of her abilities at that time, so we really only have what she demonstrated up to, say, the Hope trailer.

The_Tempest

It's an enduring double standard. We should either count them all or dismiss them all. No cherrypicking.

Nephthys

Yeah, and its not like anyone ever downplays feats from the Old Republic era. :I

We all hype the feats of the person we're trumping while downplaying those of the opposition. Its a bias we all share.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and its not like anyone ever downplays feats from the Old Republic era. :I

We all hype the feats of the person we're trumping while downplaying those of the opposition. Its a bias we all share.

Actually, that's complete and total bullshit.

If I'm understanding MK's beef with SWL correctly, MK is calling SWL on dismissing Anakin's microseries feats wholesale.

The whole "lol no those never happened they dont count!" arguments rest solely at the feet of the SWTOR camp and the SWTOR camp alone.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It contradicts with G-canon ground realities. However, you have not acknowledged this contradiction thus far. You cannot expect to settle this debate without acknowledging all kinds of ground realities attached with it.

No it doesn't settle G-canon ground realities if G-canon sources acknowledge it as the official pre-cursor to Episode III.

Nope found it in another thread. It's a part of the CWs cartoons that went along with the TV show.

You're wrong. Anakin is at the height of his power in ROTS as per George Lucas.

Also your double standard here is hilarious. By your own bullshit about ground realities (something that you made up) Vader doesn't have superior TK to Anakin because in the movies he's never shown to move anything larger than a large pot.

Wrong again. Plot Induced Stupidity as well as Character Induced Stupidity is the source of pretty much all of this. It's a writing trope where characters do not use their full power all the time. For example, in AOTCs Yoda should have been able to pull Dooku's shuttle back and save Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. But he didn't.

No I really don't. I hate ROTS Anakin and pretty much any incarnation of Skywalker played by Hayden Christensen. As a character Satele on the other hand is one of my favorites. Also you just just admitted to going out of your way to argue in favor of characters you like more. This completely devalues your argument to a simple.
"nuh-uh I like Satele more so she wins.

No feats wise Galen doesn't waste Vader because Vader has the feat of being able to keep up with him at least somewhat. It's called powerscaling sweetheart. Try and use it more often.

You think Galen is a superior swordsman to Dooku?

He has

Uhhh no its a hell of a lot more than "several tons". More like several dozen tons.

Why? He's faster and stronger than Malgus.

It's TK. Not apples and oranges. If Skywaker can move an object weighing in at several hundred tons, he can apply that power to a force push.

Yes a mountain of rubble is a commonly used hyperbole. No it isn't.

So?

He got curbstomped by Angral, lost to that dude on Tython who the HoT after quickly defeated.

I was talking about during the Cold War. Revan, HoT, and the Barsen'thor don't become powerhouses until after that.

Yes. I get it. I'm telling you its bullshit. Characters feats do not directly conflict with the movies, and so they are still canon. The next time you argue a point by dismissing a canon source I'll consider it a concession by you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can't dismiss Orgus Din losing to Darth Angral on the grounds that Angral wasn't a Dark Council member. Angral was offered a position on the Dark Council but turned it down in disgust over the Treaty of Coruscant, so he is on that level.

Angral was made Darth Baras' ***** during Threat of Peace: Act I. Where is it stated Angral turned down the position?

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, that's complete and total bullshit.

If I'm understanding MK's beef with SWL correctly, MK is calling SWL on dismissing Anakin's microseries feats wholesale.

The whole "lol no those never happened they dont count!" arguments rest solely at the feet of the SWTOR camp and the SWTOR camp alone.

You argued the same thing in regards to Nihilus and Swtor-era depictions being exaggerated to, bro.

Nephthys

Whoops, I didn't mean to post this. Double Post by accident. >_<

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Angral was made Darth Baras' ***** during Threat of Peace: Act I. Where is it stated Angral turned down the position?

In the codex.

Darth Angral was furious to see his victory dissolve into a protracted and unresolved cold war. Although his success on Coruscant opened a path to the Empire's fabled Dark Council, Angral abandoned Sith politics to pursue a private agenda. He spent years after the war consolidating a significant power base.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
You argued the same thing in regards to Nihilus and Swtor-era depictions being exaggerated to, bro.

Only when my opponent was wanting to write non-SWTOR-era stuff off wholesale. Like I said, we accept it all or write it all off, no cherrypicking simply because the SWTOR camp can't win an argument otherwise.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only when my opponent was wanting to write non-SWTOR-era stuff off wholesale. Like I said, we accept it all or write it all off, no cherrypicking simply because the SWTOR camp can't win an argument otherwise.

Pretty much my opinion as well. If you want to debate EU things then you have to debate the entire EU. If you want to debate just the movies then its just the movies. Why? Because actors have physical limitations that digital Satele and Malgus do not have.

As for the downplaying of Nihilus. Well the great Drew has already done that for us once he decided the Exile was Revan's lackey and that the Sith Triumvirate were decidedly below even a Dark Council Member. Meanwhile Vitiate who is essentially a downgraded Nihilus who can talk is considered>>>the Exile.

I personally believe Nihilus would take anyone to the curb until a defense is shown for his ability.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only when my opponent was wanting to write non-SWTOR-era stuff off wholesale. Like I said, we accept it all or write it all off, no cherrypicking simply because the SWTOR camp can't win an argument otherwise.

My recollection is of you opining that artistic differences should be examined and exaggerations in regards to the CWC, TFU and Swtor abilities should be downplayed in consideration compared to more standard depictions.

This isn't what I meant though, which is that swtor-era feats get downplayed just as much as movie-era feats. And everyone brings up the clone wars media as being exaggerated from time to time. It isn't just the swtor supporters doing it, Master Han mentioned it just a week ago.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whoops, I didn't mean to post this. Double Post by accident. >_<

In the codex.

Darth Angral was furious to see his victory dissolve into a protracted and unresolved cold war. Although his success on Coruscant opened a path to the Empire's fabled Dark Council, Angral abandoned Sith politics to pursue a private agenda. He spent years after the war consolidating a significant power base.

Cool. However power wise Darth Baras handled him with low difficulty. Now you could make the argument that Baras was on the high end of the Council spectrum, but this was also probably a decade from when we'd next see Baras in action. And we know Baras accumulated mucho power in between.

Also if the SWTOR camp wants victories perhaps they should stop pitting them against individuals who are at the top of chain in the Order's 50,000 year history.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Cool. However power wise Darth Baras handled him with low difficulty. Now you could make the argument that Baras was on the high end of the Council spectrum, but this was also probably a decade from when we'd next see Baras in action. And we know Baras accumulated mucho power in between.

Also if the SWTOR camp wants victories perhaps they should stop pitting them against individuals who are at the top of chain in the Order's 50,000 year history.

And so did Angral. The man who beat Din wasn't the same one who lost to Baras. Angral is still one of the most powerful Sith in the Order to be offered a place on the Council.

So we should only pit them against..... Darth Bane and Lukes-era? The Clone Wars era is the biggest and most explored. Naturally they're in a lot of threads.

ares834

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kao is a better duelist than Dooku?

Lol.

laughing out loud

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
And so did Angral. The man who beat Din wasn't the same one who lost to Baras. Angral is still one of the most powerful Sith in the Order to be offered a place on the Council.

So we should only pit them against..... Darth Bane and Lukes-era? The Clone Wars era is the biggest and most explored. Naturally they're in a lot of threads.

Except according to my recollection Angral beat Din during the Sacking of Coruscant. And honestly Orgus Din has shown me nothing to suggest he can hold a candle to the top tiers of the mythos.

No. You should pit them against people in their tier. Malgus wasn't even in his prime when he fought Satele. So if that's her at peak power that's pretty pathetic for the Grand Master to have grown to be vastly inferior to her greatest rival.

PT top tiers have been stated to be in the golden age of the Jedi. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Palpatine, and yes, Skywalker are the most powerful combatants to live up until that point.

Now you could make the argument that Malgus at the time of his death could defeat Skywalker, I'd disagree, but you could make the argument. Not prime Malgus isn't beating Anakin though. So pitting Satele against essentially a stronger faster Malgus, won't end well for Satele.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It wasn't stomp or pwnage. Also, this doesn't proves that Zonakin can achieve similar result against all other powerful adversaries.

He's consistently stalemated Dooku in TCW. Dooku is one of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in History. Much more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
CIP: Anakin failed to overwhelm Obi-Wan (And no! Anakin wasn't confused during this duel). This example proves that effectiveness of characters may vary in different situations.

Your right about characters performing at different levels in different situations. But like I pointed out Skywalker has performed consistently well against Dooku.

Whilst Kenobi has always been useless against the Count. Skywalker has also consistently performed better than Kenobi against other opponents like Ventress and Durge.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Duel on Mustafar

Vader releases Padme from his telekinetic deathgrip to engage Obi-Wan in a fierce duel. The combatants are so focused on each other's movements that neither notices the intrepid R2-D2 hauling Padme's unconscious form back to her starship.

The battle takes Vader and Obi-Wan through the main collection plant of the old lava mine, across platforms that stretch over riverbeds of molten lava. As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way to defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases the emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.

Source: Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

I fail to see how any of this proves Skywalker was in peak condition when Kenobi defeated him.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except according to my recollection Angral beat Din during the Sacking of Coruscant. And honestly Orgus Din has shown me nothing to suggest he can hold a candle to the top tiers of the mythos.

No. You should pit them against people in their tier. Malgus wasn't even in his prime when he fought Satele. So if that's her at peak power that's pretty pathetic for the Grand Master to have grown to be vastly inferior to her greatest rival.

PT top tiers have been stated to be in the golden age of the Jedi. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Palpatine, and yes, Skywalker are the most powerful combatants to live up until that point.

Now you could make the argument that Malgus at the time of his death could defeat Skywalker, I'd disagree, but you could make the argument. Not prime Malgus isn't beating Anakin though. So pitting Satele against essentially a stronger faster Malgus, won't end well for Satele.

At which point he was still one of the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Your whole point is that Din is one of their best Jedi and sucks so the rest of them must suck. To support this you brought up that despite being one of the Jedi's best, he still lost to Angral who isn't even a Dark Council member. To which I corrected to that he's only not a Council member because of choice, not weakness. So your point is wrong and built off of a falsehood.

Malgus at the time was still capable of overwhelming Jedi able to collapse two buildings made of transparisteel and duracrete. That Satale overwhelmed him doesn't make her look pathetic, nor does the fact that Malgus outstripped her. It only makes Malgus look like the beast that he is.

That's a rather... ambitious view of things. Yes, tell me how the PT Jedi beat everyone ever, regardless of ability because of a blanket statement of Lucas' that has no regards for individual skills. Thats totally a valid argument that will convince me. Skywalker truly is above every combatant not in the PT-era because of it. That is true.

Sidious certainly had a high opinion of Malgus. According to him Malgus' 'battlefield feats have never been equaled.' I think you're wrong. I think Malgus would beat the shit out of Skywalker.

Intrepid37

Anakin would crush Malgus.

Nephthys

No he wouldn't. Did you forget that you yourself called him an equal to Dooku?

Intrepid37

In power I did. Not as a combatant in general.

Nephthys

Malgus would beat Anakins face in with his Force powers.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
At which point he was still one of the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Your whole point is that Din is one of their best Jedi and sucks so the rest of them must suck. To support this you brought up that despite being one of the Jedi's best, he still lost to Angral who isn't even a Dark Council member. To which I corrected to that he's only not a Council member because of choice, not weakness. So your point is wrong and built off of a falsehood.

One of the most powerful Sith? He was only a Lord and got pwned by Baras. If he was one of the most powerful Sith in the Empire he wouldn't have been so easily dismissed by Darth Baras.

What Jedi was that?

No they don't beat everyone ever. But they do beat the plebes who came before them when it comes to lightsaber combat and in Yoda's case, the force.

Also Satele, to my knowledge has never received the most powerful Jedi of her era accolade as Revan did. Which to me at least solidifies that she wasn't really a top tier warrior. High tier? Certainly, but top tier. Doubtful.

Do you have an exact quote? Because his battlefield feats could easily mean his accomplishments on the battlefield, which considering his tactical prowess could be true. Not to mention that that is a hyperbolic statement.

Also Sidious was undoubtedly referring to Malgus end game. The Malgus Satele lost to wasn't even at peak power. I was always under the impression that they grew in power along side each other throughout the war. But if Satele grew weaker and Malgus grew stronger since their encounter on Corellia that's pretty damning evidence that Malgus is not only stronger than Satele, but is stronger by a large margin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus would beat Anakins face in with his Force powers.

laughing

The same Anakin who tanked Dooku's lighting and force push. The same Anakin who got Dooku on his back and started choking him out. Yeah I doubt that.

It took Dooku force choking him and electrocuting him to take him down.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus would beat Anakins face in with his Force powers.
Anakin has better Force feats though.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin has better Force feats though.

Lol.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
One of the most powerful Sith? He was only a Lord and got pwned by Baras. If he was one of the most powerful Sith in the Empire he wouldn't have been so easily dismissed by Darth Baras.

He was in charge of the most important military action in Imperial History, what you don't think he was powerful? To be given a position on the Dark Council makes him one of the most powerful Sith, as per canon.

How easily dismissed are we talking about? What happened?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What Jedi was that?

Its in The Old Republic: The Third Lesson.

Just some random Jedi Knight he encounters after Satale kicks his ass in the Hope trailer. So he was heavily wounded at the time too. The Jedi collapses two buildings on top on him, the rubble of which he holds up before blasting away with enough force for it to hit adjacent buildings. He senses another Jedi in ambush and snaps his neck with the Force before engaging the first guy in lightsaber combat. Eventually he just overwhelms him with his lightning, blasting right through the guys chest.

This bit in question is:

"Malgus fell into the Force, roared, and hounded down the street, his anger lending his speed.

The Jedi held his ground. At twenty meters, the Jedi raised his lightsabers aloft to either side and drew them both down with a flourish.

Too late the rumble of the falling buildings penetrated the haze of Malgus's anger. An avalanche of duracrete and transparisteel crached down on him from either side of the street.

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breath more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He's surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash on the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No they don't beat everyone ever. But they do beat the plebes who came before them when it comes to lightsaber combat and in Yoda's case, the force.

Also Satele, to my knowledge has never received the most powerful Jedi of her era accolade as Revan did. Which to me at least solidifies that she wasn't really a top tier warrior. High tier? Certainly, but top tier. Doubtful.

"Plebes?" Pfft, yeah right.

Well she was powerful enough to be "a cornerstone of the war effort." Its really silly to say she isn't a top tier warrior imo, provided top tier means at least Anakin level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Do you have an exact quote? Because his battlefield feats could easily mean his accomplishments on the battlefield, which considering his tactical prowess could be true. Not to mention that that is a hyperbolic statement.

Also Sidious was undoubtedly referring to Malgus end game. The Malgus Satele lost to wasn't even at peak power. I was always under the impression that they grew in power along side each other throughout the war. But if Satele grew weaker and Malgus grew stronger since their encounter on Corellia that's pretty damning evidence that Malgus is not only stronger than Satele, but is stronger by a large margin.

That is the exact quote. "Malgus submitted utterly to the darkside, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated." Yes its hyperbole, but surely Palpatine at least has Anakins battlefield feats to compare. wink

I'm not so sure, since Malgus isn't known to have actually been on a battlefield after the war. During the Cold War he expands the Empire into the Unknown regions and theres no mention of him doing any actual fighting until the Strike Team comes for him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
laughing

Based

Anakin 6/10. Satele as a grandmaster beats him though.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
My recollection is of you opining that artistic differences should be examined and exaggerations in regards to the CWC, TFU and Swtor abilities should be downplayed in consideration compared to more standard depictions.

And there again, we're back to the difference being that when I call for the consideration of artistic liberty and creative variation, I do so for the entirety of the EU, not just for a specific era.

It's a talent that separates me from the SWTOR camp, who can't win a debate without spamming the discussion with a hailstorm of double standards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This isn't what I meant though, which is that swtor-era feats get downplayed just as much as movie-era feats. And everyone brings up the clone wars media as being exaggerated from time to time. It isn't just the swtor supporters doing it, Master Han mentioned it just a week ago.

SWTOR-era feats aren't downplayed as much as movie-era feats. And when they are "downplayed," it's in response to a SWTOR fanboy taking the first shot.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was in charge of the most important military action in Imperial History, what you don't think he was powerful? To be given a position on the Dark Council makes him one of the most powerful Sith, as per canon.

Having high political power does not= having raw power. Vowrawn was one of the most influential members of the Dark Council but isn't that great in a fight.

Angral attacked Baras, Baras floors him with Force Lightning. Angral stands the **** down like the ***** he is.
"Angral later attacked Darth Baras, after the latter had consulted the Dark Council, only to be quickly overpowered."

Pretty impressive stuff there. Although the size and structural stability of these buildings are in question.

Considering she was likely capable of battle meditation that can mean more than one thing.

Well they've never been duplicated doesn't mean that there is nothing comparable. Hell even in his era Darth Marr was known for routing entire armies.

Did he not lead the assault on the foundry?

So's Dooku. That didn't help him once Anakin was in the zone.

SIDIOUS 66

IIRC, Anakin brought down a building in an underwater city on Mon calamari during TCW.

It's been so long since I seen the episode, but I do believe it took some concentration on Anakin's part. But considering that the building was underwater, wouldn't that be more impressive than toppling a building on land?

Intrepid37

The scans Mizukage_Yoda posted on the first page is a better feat than collapsing two buildings.

Master Han

Let me be a dick here, for a moment.

In the Hope trailer, it takes Satele Shan quite a while to snap a tree trunk. Meanwhile, Obi Wan snaps durasteel support structures against Grievous with even more casual ease, and Anakin = Obi Wan in telekinesis. wink

But, rather bizarre claims that Satele Shan has already peaked by Hope aside (which would cast doubts on her overall Force potential), I would give Anakin a massive advantage in the lightsaber duel simply because this Shan hasn't demonstrated combat prowess on his level; the same Malgus that almost kills her in Hope is later overwhelmed by a pissed off Jedi empath of no particularly noted exceptional power in the Deceived novel.

Basically, Satele Shan and Malgus are respectively powerful combatants by this time, but neither are yet occupying the "top dogs" spots that Anakin has by RotS, being third most powerful Jedi in the Order. Indeed, there's not much to suggest that Satele Shan is above even AotC Anakin by this point.

And Satele Shan's energy blasts may look stylish, but she doesn't bother using them against Malgus until she's had an obvious amount of prep time; clearly, they aren't as effective as you'd hope against a trained and powerful enemy, hence why I think Anakin could close the distance and take a victory in the all-out.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Han
and Anakin = Obi Wan in telekinesis. wink

Nah Anakin's TK is considerably more powerful than Kenobi's.

If nothing else he's proven in TCW that he can at the very least tank Force Attacks much better than Kenobi can. But he also happens to have far superior Tk lifting and other offensive feats.

Master Han

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah Anakin's TK is considerably more powerful than Kenobi's.

If nothing else he's proven in TCW that he can at the very least tank Force Attacks much better than Kenobi can. But he also happens to have far superior Tk lifting and other offensive feats.

How about their push-o-war in RotS?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it doesn't settle G-canon ground realities if G-canon sources acknowledge it as the official pre-cursor to Episode III.
Following are the contradictions:-

1. As per the feat you cited, Anakin is stronger then Yoda
2. As per the feat you cited, Anakin should have humiliated Obi-Wan with his Force abilities but this didn't happen.

Therefore, I feel inclined to regard this feat as an example of WIS or AIS because it is not coherent with the holistic picture of Anakin's abilities in the mythos.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Nope found it in another thread. It's a part of the CWs cartoons that went along with the TV show.
I would appreciate a link.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You're wrong. Anakin is at the height of his power in ROTS as per George Lucas.
As per G-canon ground realities, this is true. Mr. Lucas have explicitly stated that he doesn't represents EU; he represents his works/vision, and as per his vision, Anakin is certainly at the height of his power as of RoTS.

Situation is much more complicated for us fans unfortunately because we are expected to respect canon in its entirety and Star Wars related works are filled with inconsistencies and stylistic differences.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also your double standard here is hilarious. By your own bullshit about ground realities (something that you made up) Vader doesn't have superior TK to Anakin because in the movies he's never shown to move anything larger than a large pot.
This is G-canon based ranking of characters:-

TOP TIER: Sidious; Yoda; Mace

Hint 1: "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor"

Hint 2: Yoda made it clear that Obi-Wan was no match for Sidious but he stood a chance against Anakin in Episode III.

Hint 3: Episode II and III established that Yoda and Mace outclassed Dooku.

Therefore, we are left with this:-

HIGH TIER: Dooku; Anakin; Obi-Wan; Maul

In G-canon; cybernetic Vader IS actually inferior incarnation of Anakin, and this is true to vision of Mr. Lucas.

EU drifts apart from vision of Mr. Lucas however; in EU, cybernetic Vader is hyped to extreme levels in the context of his Force abilities. Mr. Lucas regard Sidious as the BIG THING among his creations but EU attempts to give Vader comparable treatment which conflicts with the vision of Mr. Lucas (Mr. Lucas did reveal that Anakin possessed the potential to surpass all mortal Force-users but he never implied or claimed that Anakin actually surpassed or rivaled Yoda, Mace and Sidious, as of RoTS).

End result of these inconsistent depictions is poor and confusing character development of Vader with respect to his power progression arc. In some aspects, Anakin seems to be unstoppable juggernaut; and then in some aspects, Anakin seems to have realistic limitations.

So how should we use Anakin in debates? Consider his best depictions only and ignore all other stuff?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wrong again. Plot Induced Stupidity as well as Character Induced Stupidity is the source of pretty much all of this. It's a writing trope where characters do not use their full power all the time. For example, in AOTCs Yoda should have been able to pull Dooku's shuttle back and save Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. But he didn't.
If we start thinking on the lines of PIS and CIS then lot of stuff in Star Wars can be effortlessly scrutinized.

Analogy: When Anakin fought Obi-Wan, the former was damn serious about killing the latter. In this scenario;

Q1. Anakin wouldn't do his best to overcome his opponent?
Q2. Why would Anakin deliberately prolong the duel?

---

As per your logic, which source should we accuse of PIS? G-canon Episode II or C-canon CW Cartoons?

Due to these issues, I originally stressed in this debate that a fair comparison between Satele and Anakin is not possible since Anakin benefits from WIS or AIS in low budget mediums but Satele haven't been explored in such mediums. However, a comparison is possible between these two characters in some mediums, and as per revelations in these mediums, Satele is superior to Anakin.

Still, here is an attempt from me to reach middle-ground in this debate:

It can be argued that Satele have relatively superior understanding of the ways of the Force then Anakin and this is why she can use her Force abilities more effectively then Anakin and therefore have advantage over him. Anakin is also capable of performing impressive actions with his Force abilities but he is not able to channel his Force abilities as effortlessly on average as Satele can (a shortcoming in his understanding of the ways of the Force) and is therefore disadvantaged.

Fair enough?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No I really don't. I hate ROTS Anakin and pretty much any incarnation of Skywalker played by Hayden Christensen. As a character Satele on the other hand is one of my favorites. Also you just just admitted to going out of your way to argue in favor of characters you like more. This completely devalues your argument to a simple.
"nuh-uh I like Satele more so she wins.
Actually Satele isn't among my favorite characters in the mythos. I just pointed out the fact that we all are biased to certain level. Therefore, it is wrong for you to single me out in this aspect. I did not accuse you of being biased in this debate but you unfortunately resorted to this tactic to attack my choice to debate in favor of Satele in this hypothetical duel. Just focus on reaching a middle ground instead of attacking my choices.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No feats wise Galen doesn't waste Vader because Vader has the feat of being able to keep up with him at least somewhat. It's called powerscaling sweetheart. Try and use it more often.
Since when did I qualify for "sweetheart" category? confused

Thanks for using humor by the way! You lighten up the mood. smile

Vader certainly have his share of impressive feats but Galen set the bar very high by influencing the movement of an Imperial Destroyer.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You think Galen is a superior swordsman to Dooku?
I am not sure about this but he is a match for cybernetic Vader at least.

You think that cybernetic Vader is superior duelist then Dooku?

In natural form, Anakin became superior duelist then Dooku; but in cybernetic form, I am not sure.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He has
confused

Wut?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhhh no its a hell of a lot more than "several tons". More like several dozen tons.
Do you have actual information about this?

This Jet rivals is comparable in size:-

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3090/3123730517_4edc92b205_z.jpg?zz=1

Its weight is 5,293 kg (when empty).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Why? He's faster and stronger than Malgus.
I disagree! Malgus is not just a relatively more overwhelming brute but Sidious personally acknowledged him as one of his strongest predecessors. Anakin may have some great feats but he seemingly lacks in channeling his Force abilities as effectively as these individuals can.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's TK. Not apples and oranges. If Skywaker can move an object weighing in at several hundred tons, he can apply that power to a force push.
Issue is that we do not have evidence of Anakin being able to channel such level of power in the form of a Force push. In contrast, we have evidence of Satele being able to channel great power in to her Force push.

With close inspection, it seems that the feat which you cited indicates that Anakin influenced the movement of a large flying object with his Force abilities in the same fashion as Galen did with an Imperial Destroyer which is considerably bigger then this large flying object. Comparatively, Galen's feat is vastly superior. Still, we haven't seen both Anakin and Galen being able to channel such level of power in their Force push during combat situations.

So are you willing to accept that Galen shits on Anakin (RoTS)?

I am no expert on the mysteries of the Force but I advice caution in regard to this subject.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes a mountain of rubble is a commonly used hyperbole. No it isn't.
I posted what I could find from existing sources.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So?
Her talents are remarkable by Star Wars standards.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He got curbstomped by Angral, lost to that dude on Tython who the HoT after quickly defeated.
He must have won some fights too since he was the most experienced Jedi of the Order in his time and possibly in history. If Din lost to some then this indicates how good these individuals are and not that he sucks. He tutored HoT which should mean something.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I was talking about during the Cold War. Revan, HoT, and the Barsen'thor don't become powerhouses until after that.
But the ERA is the same.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes. I get it. I'm telling you its bullshit. Characters feats do not directly conflict with the movies, and so they are still canon. The next time you argue a point by dismissing a canon source I'll consider it a concession by you.
LOL

You didn't get it unfortunately. The feats do not contradict until they exceed established norms or rules.

As per ground realities of G-canon, Anakin is not in the league of Yoda, Mace and Sidious and yet he have relatively more impressive showing under his belt. This is the end result of disrespecting continuity; this results in misrepresentation and confusion.

Master Han

SW legend, this fight involves Satele Shan as a Jedi knight, who was an intervention away from getting killed by a significantly weaker Malgus than the one that would eventually be praised by Sidious.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kao is a better duelist than Dooku?

Lol.
Kao's blade-work is superior.

Originally posted by ares834
laughing out loud

See above

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin would crush Malgus.
Like he crushed Obi-Wan?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In power I did. Not as a combatant in general.
Malgus is relatively more overwhelming and effective combatant. Your assertion is baseless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin has better Force feats though.
What is the benefit of such feats if Anakin haven't managed to channel such level of power during combat situations?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The scans Mizukage_Yoda posted on the first page is a better feat than collapsing two buildings.
And you know this how exactly?

We do not have visual depictions of the two buildings in question. But if those structures were BIG, than...

Originally posted by Master Han
SW legend, this fight involves Satele Shan as a Jedi knight, who was an intervention away from getting killed by a significantly weaker Malgus than the one that would eventually be praised by Sidious.
Their is nothing in this statement: "Malgus submitted utterly to the darkside, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated."

- which indicates that a particular incarnation of Maglus is under consideration.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
IIRC, Anakin brought down a building in an underwater city on Mon calamari during TCW.

It's been so long since I seen the episode, but I do believe it took some concentration on Anakin's part. But considering that the building was underwater, wouldn't that be more impressive than toppling a building on land?

He does it by taking out a single support structure and yeah it took a lot of concentration on his part. I wouldn't say its more impressive than taking one down on land considering all he does is break some metal rods.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Having high political power does not= having raw power. Vowrawn was one of the most influential members of the Dark Council but isn't that great in a fight.

"Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy." Numerous times are the Dark Council referred to as the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Vowrawn has been a Dark Council member for decades, when even being a Darth is described as requiring 'considerable power' and is known for his 'passionate, almost hedonistic pursuit of challenge' and revels in 'the game of conquest and Sith power plays, driven to euphoria by all the rich details of his favorite sport.'

The man can't be a weakling.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Angral attacked Baras, Baras floors him with Force Lightning. Angral stands the **** down like the ***** he is.
"Angral later attacked Darth Baras, after the latter had consulted the Dark Council, only to be quickly overpowered."

That seems pretty impressive for Baras. Regardless I still think Angral is not the punk you are making him out to be. Throughout Deception he constantly shits on Malgus to his face, insults Malgus' lover right to his face and threatens him with Malgus backing down. I'm just saying, he's one of the most celebrated warlords in Imperial history for a reason. Vitiate also calls him useful.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Pretty impressive stuff there. Although the size and structural stability of these buildings are in question.

The buildings would have to be large in order to collapse on top of Malgus when he's in the middle of the street. Gotta be at least 3 stories judging by the buildings and street outside my window. Also it was described as a mountain of rubble, and even after Malgus blasted the rubble on top of him away he needed to Force jump out of the wreckage.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Considering she was likely capable of battle meditation that can mean more than one thing.

I'm almost certain that Satale never realised Battle Meditation. At least, thats what Wookieepedia says. Apparantly her master suspected she had it, but that was never confirmed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Well they've never been duplicated doesn't mean that there is nothing comparable. Hell even in his era Darth Marr was known for routing entire armies.

None the less it is heavy praise. It suggests that the things Malgus was capable of doing in battle haven't been equaled.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Did he not lead the assault on the foundry?

I don't know. I haven't done Flashpoints. :I

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So's Dooku. That didn't help him once Anakin was in the zone.

This isn't Anakin in teh zone though. Plus as I showed in other threads, Malgus' Force powers are shown to be more powerful in regards to combat destruction than Dooku's have. His lightning can burn through Jedi's chests and killed 3 Jedi with a single lightning blast, his force pushes can kill and shatter bones, he's shattered huge pillars with his force screams and he's has his mighty Force Maelstrom.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Han
How about their push-o-war in RotS?

Now that's the real mystery. Could be Skywalker being mentally unstable and not able to focus properly. But I don't know that for sure.

All I do know is that Kenobi gets completely force stomped by Dooku in ROTS, whilst Skywalker has consistently tanked all Dooku's force attacks in TCW (by tanked I don't mean he just stands there and doesn't notice it. I mean he gets pushed back and hit a lot, but seems to be able to take it and carry on fighting).

I also know Skywalker has much more impressive Tk feats.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Like he crushed Obi-Wan?

More like the way he crushed Count Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is the benefit of such feats if Anakin haven't managed to channel such level of power during combat situations?

He has:

He killed Durge when he started controlling him with TK- Obsession.

He's battered Ventress by telekinetically squashing her in cables which she was helpless to release herself from- Dreadnaughts of Rendilli.

He force choked Ventress and she again seemed defenseless to free herself from his hold.- Last episdoe of TCW.

He even once temporarily staggered Dooku with Tk as early in the clone wars as TCW movie.
Not to mention his continuous tanking of all Dooku's force attacks, and Dooku himself admitting in their final fight that his Knowledge of the Force was a Joke next to Skywalker. This is the same Dooku whom Yoda calls the Temple's "Most Learned in the Ways of the Force."

Edit- Oh and the biggest one: He overpowered the Son and Daughter together. Of course that's a clear one-off Uber-Zone feat.

Nephthys

Oh, and btw, anyone pointing out that Malgus failed to kill Malcom with his lightning in the 'Hope' trailer: Havoc Squads armor is insulated and has cortosis plating. I guess Malgus should have aimed for the face. no expression

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kao's blade-work is superior.

No it isn't. erm

Originally posted by Master Han
Let me be a dick here, for a moment.

In the Hope trailer, it takes Satele Shan quite a while to snap a tree trunk. Meanwhile, Obi Wan snaps durasteel support structures against Grievous with even more casual ease, and Anakin = Obi Wan in telekinesis. wink

When was this?

Plus Satele has shattered a blast door with a seemingly casual one-handed force push:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/6f/Shannerpoint.jpg

Blast door >>> support structures.

Originally posted by Master Han
But, rather bizarre claims that Satele Shan has already peaked by Hope aside (which would cast doubts on her overall Force potential), I would give Anakin a massive advantage in the lightsaber duel simply because this Shan hasn't demonstrated combat prowess on his level; the same Malgus that almost kills her in Hope is later overwhelmed by a pissed off Jedi empath of no particularly noted exceptional power in the Deceived novel.

You mean Aryn? She's shown to be pretty damn powerful bro, putting up more of a fight then her master did.

As for Satele, well her first master was the Orders battlemaster and in the Hope trailer she was shown to be able to literally run through Sith Warriors. In a rather impressive bit of speed and skill when she first shows up, she blasts 3 Sith into the air and manages to jump and kill them all in about a second.

Originally posted by Master Han
Basically, Satele Shan and Malgus are respectively powerful combatants by this time, but neither are yet occupying the "top dogs" spots that Anakin has by RotS, being third most powerful Jedi in the Order. Indeed, there's not much to suggest that Satele Shan is above even AotC Anakin by this point.

And Satele Shan's energy blasts may look stylish, but she doesn't bother using them against Malgus until she's had an obvious amount of prep time; clearly, they aren't as effective as you'd hope against a trained and powerful enemy, hence why I think Anakin could close the distance and take a victory in the all-out.

Lol, not even above AotC Anakin at this point. She blocked a lightsaber with her bare hands!

You seem to forget that the only reason she had sufficient prep time was because she blew him away and kept up the force while she charged up the blast, showing remarkable skill and power. Personally I don't see Anakin closing the distance when Malgus couldn't in the face of her TK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He has:

He killed Durge when he started controlling him with TK- Obsession.

He's battered Ventress by telekinetically squashing her in cables which she was helpless to release herself from- Dreadnaughts of Rendilli.

He force choked Ventress and she again seemed defenseless to free herself from his hold.- Last episdoe of TCW.

Not sure about the first one, but with the last two he was extremely pissed off.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Nephthys

Not sure about the first one, but with the last two he was extremely pissed off.

He usually is when he's pushed hard in a fight. He's pissed everytime he fights Count Dooku for instance.

Nephthys

But he's usually restraining his anger. Against Ventress those two times iirc he was clearly cutting loose.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
When was this?

When Greivous sends his magnaguards to kill Kenobi after the Jedi confronts him.

Naturally, I'd ask when this happens.

Sorry, I should have defined "exceptional"; I mean relative to people like Anakin. Aryn is obviously very talented, but nobody treats her as if she were one of the top dogs in the entire Order. Anakin by RotS has legendary skills and is the third most powerful Jedi in the Order. We're talking about the top 0.03%.

Impressive, but we have no idea how formidable those sith are...the videos make it quite clear that they're fodder; Malcom literally runs through them as well in the Hope trailer.

A testament to her mastery of the Force, or perhaps even just her mastery of a specific Force technique. Her lightsaber skills aren't necessarily above Anakin's.

Um, if she could do this at will, she would have done so against Malgus right off the bat. She only manages to do so after Malcom distracts Malgus for several seconds, and Shan possibly had absorbed energy from the lightsaber.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
SWTOR-era feats aren't downplayed as much as movie-era feats. And when they are "downplayed," it's in response to a SWTOR fanboy taking the first shot.

http://replygif.net/i/981.gif

ares834

While Satele's force hadouken was crazy impressive. It should be pointed out that she has only performed that feat after absorbing a shit ton of energy.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Master Han
When Greivous sends his magnaguards to kill Kenobi after the Jedi confronts him.

Lol. Those were tiny.

Originally posted by Master Han
Naturally, I'd ask when this happens.

Star Wars: The Old Republic 7: The Lost Suns, Part 1. Not sure when that is.

Originally posted by Master Han
Sorry, I should have defined "exceptional"; I mean relative to people like Anakin. Aryn is obviously very talented, but nobody treats her as if she were one of the top dogs in the entire Order. Anakin by RotS has legendary skills and is the third most powerful Jedi in the Order. We're talking about the top 0.03%.

If she isn't one of the top dogs, then that just speaks of the skills of the Jedi Order at the time. I don't really care if she's particularly note worthy, just what she's demonstrated. I mean, some random padawan once held up a Star Destroyer and she's not mentioned outside of the one appearance.

Originally posted by Master Han
Impressive, but we have no idea how formidable those sith are...the videos make it quite clear that they're fodder; Malcom literally runs through them as well in the Hope trailer.

They're fodder to Satele and Malcom perhaps, that doesn't make them weak. Malcom is the finest soldier in the entire Republic after all.

Originally posted by Master Han
A testament to her mastery of the Force, or perhaps even just her mastery of a specific Force technique. Her lightsaber skills aren't necessarily above Anakin's.

I didn't say they were, but I do think she's good enough to hold him off for her potent Force mastery to take him out.

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, if she could do this at will, she would have done so against Malgus right off the bat. She only manages to do so after Malcom distracts Malgus for several seconds, and Shan possibly had absorbed energy from the lightsaber.

And if Dooku was capable of overwhelming Obi-Wan with TK, he would have done it right off the bat too! Regardless of her tactical oversight, she showed that she was able to do it, and I've never seen anything indicating that she did absorb energy from his lightsaber.

ares834

Huh? That's exactly what the ability she used does.

Nephthys

Not all the time iirc.

ares834

True, it can be used to deflect energy but we don't see that happening in that scene. We see her absorbing it.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol. Those were tiny.

Still more impressive than snapping a tree trunk (as powerful as that may be).

Do you know if Satele Shan is grandmaster by then?

Aryn is able to fall from terminal velocity, but must slow her descent and (IIRC) suffers minor injuries in the process.

AotC Anakin can do this casually, almost as if it were a game, onto a rapidly moving airspeeder, with perfect timing and no injury whatsoever.

Let's be fair here; if they're fodder to Malcom, they're fodder to Anakin.

This may happen, but Anakin is still pulling off the majority of wins here; notice how quickly Anakin attacks Obi Wan in RotS? Could Satele have any hope of surviving long enough to create distance?

1. Dooku was initially going easy on them.
2. Who says he can overwhelm Obi Wan off the bat? RoDV insinuates that he caught Kenobi off guard/out-speeded him.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Nephthys
But he's usually restraining his anger. Against Ventress those two times iirc he was clearly cutting loose.

Well it depends what your arguing here, an Anakin whose restraining himself for the whole fight, or an Anakin letting lose.

Based

Originally posted by Master Han

Do you know if Satele Shan is grandmaster by then?

Not even close, really. If she's fighting that would mean it's during the war which is ~8 years prior to TOR. And since she was still called a padawan during the Sacking of Coruscant which ended the war Satele is a long way off.

ares834

Threat of Peace was, more or less, overwritten. I'm not positive but I'm fairly sure Satele was a Jedi Knight by then.

Nephthys

Actually its The Lost Suns we're talking about. Wookieepedia is confusing on when the feat takes place, but I finally figured it out. The comic itself takes place in the same year as SWTOR starts, which is well into Shans Grand Mastership, but the actual feat in question takes place in the Battle of Rhem Var, which takes place at least before the Treaty of Coruscant.

ares834

Nah, I was replying to Based where he mentioned that Shan was called a Padawan during the Sacking of Courscant which was likely from ToP.

Nephthys

Oh. Yeah, she was a Knight, even as of the very start of the war.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, and btw, anyone pointing out that Malgus failed to kill Malcom with his lightning in the 'Hope' trailer: Havoc Squads armor is insulated and has cortosis plating. I guess Malgus should have aimed for the face. no expression

Very interesting! Thanks for pointing out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't. erm

Their is ample proof in the footage; Kao simultaneously wielded a double-bladed lightsaber along with a normal one with amazing elegance and skill during the duel at one point. During this scenario, he not just managed to effectively duel both prominent Sith Lords but impaled one in the process. SWTOR(E) notes that it is difficult to gain expertise in dueling aspects of a double-bladed lightsaber, but Kao set the bar too high. I have yet to this level of skill being duplicated or exceeded in a lightsaber based clash thus far.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
More like the way he crushed Count Dooku.
But Satele is evidently tougher opponent then Count. Let me clarify an element which people often miss while wanking about Anakin's victory over Dooku and using it as the basis to claim that he is going to dominate anybody barring select few in PT era.

Anakin's victory over Dooku wasn't an easy development in the making; Anakin had ample time to familiarize himself with talents of Dooku and hone his capabilities accordingly. The possibility of specialization is strong in this case, but limitations of this specialization became apparent when Anakin attempted to outduel Obi-Wan and failed. Anakin's shortcoming is in "command of the Force" factor; it seems like as if his Jedi mentor(s) failed to make the best out of him. And not to forget that Dooku was in decline while Anakin was at the height of his strength as of RoTS.

Satele brings a lot on the table; in many ways, she seems to give Yoda'esque vibe with her actions (in-fact her lightsaber blocking feat is unparalleled). If Anakin somehow matches her in martial aspects, he falls short in other areas.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He has:

He killed Durge when he started controlling him with TK- Obsession.

He's battered Ventress by telekinetically squashing her in cables which she was helpless to release herself from- Dreadnaughts of Rendilli.

He force choked Ventress and she again seemed defenseless to free herself from his hold.- Last episdoe of TCW.

He even once temporarily staggered Dooku with Tk as early in the clone wars as TCW movie.
Not to mention his continuous tanking of all Dooku's force attacks, and Dooku himself admitting in their final fight that his Knowledge of the Force was a Joke next to Skywalker. This is the same Dooku whom Yoda calls the Temple's "Most Learned in the Ways of the Force."

Edit- Oh and the biggest one: He overpowered the Son and Daughter together. Of course that's a clear one-off Uber-Zone feat.
Anakin have his moments but he is not able to harness his Force abilities to his peak efficiency levels.

- Durge shouldn't be a problem for a powerful Force-user.

- Ventress was utterly humiliated by Yoda. This event reveals how much she is lacking along with likes of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

- Dooku utterly outclassed him in response. Of-course, sand was not going to hurt Anakin.

- I don't regard Mortis based events as true representative of Anakin's capabilities. That part of lore was filled with depiction of mental games and supernatural stuff. It is possible that The Father helped Anakin for disciplining his siblings.

---

Anakin wasn't lacking in potential; he was lacking in his understanding of the ways of the Force. With lot of training and exposure, he may have eventually unlocked his true abilities but he ran out of luck.

Originally posted by Master Han
Still more impressive than snapping a tree trunk (as powerful as that may be).
Excuse me? Do you even realize what kind of action of Obi-Wan you are trying to compare with this type of action and passing the former off as more impressive?

Finest example of Apples and Oranges comparison till date.

Originally posted by Master Han
This may happen, but Anakin is still pulling off the majority of wins here; notice how quickly Anakin attacks Obi Wan in RotS? Could Satele have any hope of surviving long enough to create distance?
You are underestimating Satele's speed. She have Yoda'esque moves. Watch her actions carefully in Hope Cinematic Trailer.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

But Satele is evidently tougher opponent then Count. Let me clarify an element which people often miss while wanking about Anakin's victory over Dooku and using it as the basis to claim that he is going to dominate anybody barring select few in PT era.

Yeah except it's not just about his ROTS Victory over the Count anymore. It's his consistent stalemating against the Count during TCW.

So it is only the PT Elite (Yoda, Sidious and possibly Mace) who are more powerful than Skywalker.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Anakin's victory over Dooku wasn't an easy development in the making; Anakin had ample time to familiarize himself with talents of Dooku and hone his capabilities accordingly.

See above. Also Skywalker was no more familiar with Dooku than Dooku was with Skywalker.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The possibility of specialization is strong in this case, but limitations of this specialization became apparent when Anakin attempted to outduel Obi-Wan and failed.

You go on about people wanking over Anakin's defeat over Dooku, yet never fail to rub in Kenobi's defeat over Anakin. But the fact is consistent showings make it absolutely clear Skywalker = Count Dooku > Kenobi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin's shortcoming is in "command of the Force" factor; it seems like as if his Jedi mentor(s) failed to make the best out of him. And not to forget that Dooku was in decline while Anakin was at the height of his strength as of RoTS.

This I will agree with, that Skywalker's general Command of the Force should have been a lot better than it was.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Satele brings a lot on the table; in many ways, she seems to give Yoda'esque vibe with her actions (in-fact her lightsaber blocking feat is unparalleled). If Anakin somehow matches her in martial aspects, he falls short in other areas.

I don't know. Dooku's incredible command of the force never seemed to work.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin have his moments but he is not able to harness his Force abilities to his peak efficiency levels.

- Durge shouldn't be a problem for a powerful Force-user.

- Ventress was utterly humiliated by Yoda. This event reveals how much she is lacking along with likes of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

- Dooku utterly outclassed him in response. Of-course, sand was not going to hurt Anakin.

- I don't regard Mortis based events as true representative of Anakin's capabilities. That part of lore was filled with depiction of mental games and supernatural stuff. It is possible that The Father helped Anakin for disciplining his siblings.

---

- Durge- So you agree that feat does put Anakin in the "powerful force user" category.

- Skywalker is no Yoda. But dominating Ventress like that is only something the elite PT Power houses can do.

- Dooku- If your referring to the Tatooine fight, Dooku floored Skywaler a couple of times, but even then was really struggling to outright defeat him. And that was pretty early in the Clone Wars.

-Mortis- What happened is confirmed canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin wasn't lacking in potential; he was lacking in his understanding of the ways of the Force. With lot of training and exposure, he may have eventually unlocked his true abilities but he ran out of luck.

And yet for all the potential he didn't tap he was still easily the 3rd most Powerful Jedi in the Order, and a peer to One of the Most Powerful Jedi in the Order's history, and now an even More Powerful Sith Lord.

pencilcrayon

The Father effortlessly collapses the blade back into the lightsaber hilt.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Following are the contradictions:-

1. As per the feat you cited, Anakin is stronger then Yoda
2. As per the feat you cited, Anakin should have humiliated Obi-Wan with his Force abilities but this didn't happen.

No he isn't because Yoda casually smashed two three hundred meter wide transports together in TCWs cartoon. And because Yoda matched the most powerful Dark Lord in history blow for blow in ROTS.

Anakin is confirmed to be above Kenobi in sabers and the force, and yet he lost. Why? Because of his mental state. This has already been addressed to death.

Wut?

You can google the url. I'm far too lazy to go find it.

Will you stop spewing the forums with this ground reality crap that you just pulled out of your dark gaping oraphis of an anus.

You made that up. Anakin is ranked to be a tier 9 duelist when he is DS. He's top tier. So is Dooku considering he is stated multiple times to be on par with Mace.

No EU doesn't drift from the movies in that regard, because they can't. Lucas' word is law as far as canon goes. Anakin never surpassed Yoda or Sidious, but he was getting mighty close.

Yes. It's called a low end showing. Anakin's high end showings outweigh his shit ones. For example Anakin defeated Dooku but had a hard time with Barriss. That doesn't suggest that Barriss can even hold a candle to Dooku.

No.
And he didn't he was struggling emotionally with the prospect of murdering his father figure after just choking his pregnant wife. Oh right and his wife just called him out on murdering children.

It's not PIS if there are technological limitations involved.

Except if tomorrow Lucasarts released a codex entry that said Satele Shan ripped down an Imperial dreadnaught you wouldn't be like. 'Oh well that isn't in line with her showings in the game.' You'd be making Satele Shan vs. Yoda threads this very moment. Don't piss on my head and tell me its raining.

You aren't even trying to give ground.

Yes she is. She's in the SWTOR era, which is enough for you to wank her from here to kingdom come. The fact that you would sit here and debate that Satele Shan has better TK feats and saber off of the Hope video is ludicrous.

It's the way you fight me when you so clearly want to consen...I mean concede.

I create the mood for us to consummate our debate with furious sodomy.

Which is impressive. And something that has been hinted at since Yoda first said 'size matters not'.

Yes he is.

No, Dooku would, in raw sabers at least ravage Vader with his superior speed.

A 747-400 has a 124 ton capacity compared to a weight of 487 tons.

A Lambda-class shuttle which is of comparable size has a cargo capacity of 80 tons. Using the same proportion of weight-cargo capacity a lambda class shuttle would weigh approximately 314 tons. But hey, let's say advanced tech makes a vessel half the size be able to carry that weight. That's still ~150 tons.

Underestimation of Skywalker at its finest.

No it isn't. Because the Star Destroyer was already falling, Galen merely redirected it. Skywalker moved a stable platform over in the course of a few seconds. Galen took minutes to redirect the destroyer.

No. Galen will lose to Anakin.

Not really remarkable, they are good but remarkable is a broad term.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He must have won some fights too since he was the most experienced Jedi of the Order in his time and possibly in history. If Din lost to some then this indicates how good these individuals are and not that he sucks. He tutored HoT which should mean something.

Lol one of the options for the HoT when you get Orgus Din as a master is basically 'Uhh can I get Satele instead'

I suppose. I consider the Cold War era different than the Second Great War era because there are years and years in between.

Wrong. Anakin is approaching that level by ROTS. Mace Windu hates Anakin and yet admits that one could make the argument that Anakin is stronger than not only himself, but Yoda.

ares834

Starkiller would wreck Anakin dude. And no, that feat is not nearly as impressive as Starkiller's SD feat. Not to mention, Starkiller has other feats that are as impressive as the SD feat.

The_Tempest

Mizukage, like me, prefers to power scale instead of reading feats as absolutely literal.

Starkiller would effortlessly stomp Vitiate or Mace Windu or Dooku feat-wise, but I don't actually think he would.

ares834

Then we have Starkiller giving Sidious a good fight and manage to contain Sidious's lightning for longer than Yoda did.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by ares834
Then we have Starkiller giving Sidious a good fight

que?

If you take that fight literally, Starkiller didn't just give a good one, he flat-out beat the Emperor.

But we both know Sidious was pulling his punches in a major way.

Originally posted by ares834
and manage to contain Sidious's lightning for longer than Yoda did.

I would submit to you that, given the Emperor's dissatisfaction with Marek's death, he might not have been trying to kill Starkiller with the lightning, merely keeping him at bay.

After all, his initial target was Kota, not Starkiller.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it isn't. Because the Star Destroyer was already falling, Galen merely redirected it. Skywalker moved a stable platform over in the course of a few seconds. Galen took minutes to redirect the destroyer.

Lolwut?

BTW, I can also point out that the platform was being held up by repulserlift, meaning all Skywalker had to do is tip it a bit.

ares834

Originally posted by The_Tempest
que?

If you take that fight literally, Starkiller didn't just give a good one, he flat-out beat the Emperor.

But we both know Sidious was pulling his punches in a major way.

I'm talking about after that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I would submit to you that, given the Emperor's dissatisfaction with Marek's death, he might not have been trying to kill Starkiller with the lightning, merely keeping him at bay.

After all, his initial target was Kota, not Starkiller.

So why would he pull his punches if he was trying to kill Kota?

Anyway, here is an excerpt from the novel.

"Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain."

Certainly does not seem like he is holding back here.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lolwut?

BTW, I can also point out that the platform was being held up by repulserlift, meaning all Skywalker had to do is tip it a bit.

Uh, no? Gravity or no, it still has inertia.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by ares834
So why would he pull his punches if he was trying to kill Kota?

No, I'm sure he tried to kill Kota. But then Starkiller literally got in the way.

Originally posted by ares834
"Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to."

Certainly does not seem like he is holding back here.

To be fair, that passage is from Galen's perspective.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, no? Gravity or no, it still has inertia.

Why go out of his way to tip it if it played no part? Thats added effort if all he's doing is moving it to the side. Clearly imo he's tipping it and using the repulsers to move it. You can even see some energy coming out of the bottom.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by ares834
erm

Starkiller would wreck Anakin dude. And no, that feat is not nearly as impressive as Starkiller's SD feat. Not to mention, Starkiller has other feats that are as impressive as the SD feat.

You misinterpret. I am saying that the feats are different. Not that Skywalkers is more impressive (it isn't but this is also Anakin far from his peak).

As for Sidious vs. Starkiller, the official stance is that Starkiller was no match for Sidious. Sidious is also known for trolling people into thinking he's defenses so they 'give into the dark side.' And the most damning evidence of all in my opinion even though it is a what if scenario. In the Dark Side ending of the Force Unleashed (which is what I view to be the developers view of what would have happened if Starkiller killed Vader) Palpatine completely stomps Starkiller within moments when he gets serious.

ares834

Yet, in the canon ending we have him desperately attacking Marek and howling in pain.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by ares834
Yet, in the canon ending we have him desperately attacking Marek and howling in pain.

Desperately? That is a gross exaggeration. Also Sidious didn't even use his saber.

ares834

I posted a quote which states as such in this very thread.

Nephthys

Its on the same page, lol.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its on the same page, lol.

That passage contradicts the video games depiction which don't show him howling at all as well as the official sites stance. Two canon sources outweigh the voice of another one, especially when one is debatably from a character's perspective.

ares834

How does it contradict the Official site? Link please.

Anyway, it does contradict the game. Just like the initial Palaptine/Starkiller confrontation which has Starkiller trashing Palpatine in a duel. With that said the game does not contradict the notion that Sidious was desperate.

pencilcrayon

He let him win the first one.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by ares834
How does it contradict the Official site? Link please.

Databank. Which now doesn't exist. Although considering the official site now links you to the starwars wiki...I don't know. All that information is lost now.

Yes it does. Palpatine was holding back. If you really think Sidious wasn't toying with Starkiller you are kidding yourself.

ares834

I think that because the novel tells me so. Of course, the novel contradicts the game concerning their duel. And if we treat the game as canon rather than the novel...

ROTJ Vader

Originally posted by ares834
erm

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by ares834
erm

Starkiller would wreck Anakin dude. And no, that feat is not nearly as impressive as Starkiller's SD feat. Not to mention, Starkiller has other feats that are as impressive as the SD feat.

In a pure Force Contest, yes Starkiller would wreck him.

But of course Skywalker would take him in Sabers.

Not sure about an all out though. Probably Starkiller- depending how long he could hold off Skywalker in Sabers.

Intrepid37

Anakin would beat the shit out of Starkiller.

Nephthys

Trololololol!

Intrepid37

Starkiller is only ANH Vader tier. Anakin is at least RotJ Vader tier, and RotJ Vader>>>Starkiller.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Starkiller is only ANH Vader tier. Anakin is at least RotJ Vader tier, and RotJ Vader>>>Starkiller.

I doubt Vader improved that much from ANH to ROTJ. Besides Starkiller overpowered ANH(or close to it) Vader.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of ROTS Skywalker defeating Starkiller, but he certainly won't be tooling him.

Intrepid37

We have sources confirming the following:

1) ANH Vader was ''but a shadow of his former self''.
2) ESB Vader is massively more skilled than ANH Vader.
3) RotJ Vader is more powerful and skilled than ESB Vader.

Following to take into consideration:

1) Maul convincingly beat ANH Vader.
2) Starkiller was losing to Shaak Ti in a duel. Anakin forced her to flee on a nexus which would've empowered Ti's powers.

DARTH POWER

Where's it stated that:

ESB Vader was "massively" more skilled than ANH Vader? and

Shaak Ti retreated from Skywalker on a Nexus that only amplifies Shaak Ti?

Intrepid37

Skywalker was using the dark side, so he would not be boosted by the nexus?

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Darth%20Vader/VaderismorepowerfulinESBthaninANH_zps8bfb3954.png

Nephthys

Those quotes are massively outdated imo.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
We have sources confirming the following:

1) ANH Vader was ''but a shadow of his former self''.

Referring to which former self? That quote can apply to him as of TFU as well.

Intrepid37

Given that he progressively became more powerful between ANH-ESB and ESB-RotJ, it's very illogical to think he lessened between TFU-ANH.

Another thing: ANH Vader reached an impasse with ANH Kenobi. ANH Kenobi was also ''but a shadow of his former self''.

Nephthys

Its less illogical than to think that the Vader in TFU is less powerful than RotS Anakin when the former displays massively better feats and fights evenly someone hugely superior to Anakin.

Theres nothing indicating that he did not diminish between TFU and ANH.

The concept that Vader was weaker than he used to be is ancient history. Multiple sources depict him as being one of the most powerful Sith Lords even as of ANH.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Skywalker was using the dark side, so he would not be boosted by the nexus?

The Jedi Temple's on a Light Side Nexus?

Originally posted by Intrepid37

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Darth%20Vader/VaderismorepowerfulinESBthaninANH_zps8bfb3954.png

Thanks. What's the source?

DARTH POWER

Nephthys

You know what I mean.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its less illogical than to think that the Vader in TFU is less powerful than RotS Anakin when the former displays massively better feats and fights someone hugely superior to Anakin.
But he doesn't display massively better feats... he can't even beat Maul or a massively lessened Obi-Wan, not to mention sources outright confirming that he was weaker than once.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The concept that Vader was weaker than he used to be is ancient history. Multiple sources depict him as being one of the most powerful Sith Lords even as of ANH.
What sources?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Jedi Temple's on a Light Side Nexus?
According to Revenge of the Sith, yes, and a powerful one as well:

The Jedi Temple was the greatest nexus of Force energy in the Republic; its ziggurat design focused the Force the way a lightsaber's gemstone focused its energy stream. With the thousands of Jedi and Padawans within it every day contemplating peace, seeking knowledge, and meditating on justice and surrender to the will of the Force, the Temple was a fountain of the light.

Just being on its rooftop landing deck sent a surge of power through Anakin's whole body; if the Force was ever to show him a way to change the dark future of his nightmares, it would do so here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thanks. What's the source?
Insider #62: Fightsaber

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Another thing: ANH Vader reached an impasse with ANH Kenobi. ANH Kenobi was also ''but a shadow of his former self''.

Where are the "Shadow of Former self" quotes from for ANH Vader/Kenobi?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You know what I mean.

Not entirely sure on your logic that puts ANH Vader above ROTS Skywalker. Because that would naturally put OT Vader above Dooku before he's even reached his prime.

Nephthys

Anakin isn't as powerful as Dooku. Hes a comparable duelist, but the Count is clearly superior in the ways of the Force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But he doesn't display massively better feats... he can't even beat Maul or a massively lessened Obi-Wan, not to mention sources outright confirming that he was weaker than once.

What sources?

Yes he does. Those are ANH Vader, not TFU Vader. Besides, that was just a clone and he DID beat him.

The one that show him tearing apart cathedrals, throwing around giant platforms and fighting Galen mother****ing Marek.

Intrepid37

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Darth%20Vader/BenKenobiwasashadowofhisformerself_zps1a48ae92.png

Nephthys

That source is over 10 years old and was made before TFU retconned Vader into being a hugely powerful badass.

DARTH POWER

^ Yeah that's quite clearly a comparison to their ROTS selves. Plus Lucas says something similar about their fight in the ANH Dvd audio commentary.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin isn't as powerful as Dooku. Hes a comparable duelist, but the Count is clearly superior in the ways of the Force.
Anakin is more powerful than Dooku... not telekinetically, but in general, he is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes he does. Those are ANH Vader, not TFU Vader.
Prove there's a difference.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, that was just a clone and he DID beat him.
...

Obi-Wan beat Maul in TPM as well. You're not gonna argue that Obi-Wan was Maul's better, are you?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The one that show him tearing apart cathedrals, throwing around giant platforms and fighting Galen mother****ing Marek.
Moving that battlestation at least matches collapsing a cathedral.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Obi-Wan beat Maul in TPM as well. You're not gonna argue that Obi-Wan was Maul's better, are you?

Believe it or not, some people actually believe this.. COUGH- Kurupt Thanosi -COUGH

Intrepid37

I tend to ignore Korupt Thanosi when he's debating Obi-Wan/Mace, lol.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except it's not just about his ROTS Victory over the Count anymore. It's his consistent stalemating against the Count during TCW.
Look! We need to realize that Dooku is no longer a BIG THING in the mythos. Overcoming Dooku is decent accomplishment on part of Anakin but this doesn't proves that he is above all in history barring 3 names.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So it is only the PT Elite (Yoda, Sidious and possibly Mace) who are more powerful than Skywalker.
I strongly disagree.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
See above. Also Skywalker was no more familiar with Dooku than Dooku was with Skywalker.
But they have shared history and Anakin benefited from it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You go on about people wanking over Anakin's defeat over Dooku, yet never fail to rub in Kenobi's defeat over Anakin. But the fact is consistent showings make it absolutely clear Skywalker = Count Dooku > Kenobi.
I attempt to control "unreasonable Anakin wanking" by using the Obi-Wan card. Just because Anakin overcame Dooku, doesn't means he can defeat any other powerful individual barring the 3 names you mentioned.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This I will agree with, that Skywalker's general Command of the Force should have been a lot better than it was.
Yes! Now that you have noticed this shortcoming in Anakin, maybe you can now realize the possibility of him loosing to other powerful individuals.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't know. Dooku's incredible command of the force never seemed to work.
Dooku's abilities are formidable but he is not exceptional in the grand picture. Dooku did benefit from his abilities against Anakin in several encounters; Dooku was eventually tasked to lure Anakin to the dark side by his Sith Master and he fell due to this plan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
- Durge- So you agree that feat does put Anakin in the "powerful force user" category.
Anakin is a powerful individual on the basis of his holistic picture; certainly "above average" at minimum.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
- Skywalker is no Yoda. But dominating Ventress like that is only something the elite PT Power houses can do.
I disagree!

Even Dark Council members can be this damn powerful. I recall Nox doing this to Thanaton. I guess that Nox will eat Ventress for breakfast because Thanaton himself is much stronger then Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
- Dooku- If your referring to the Tatooine fight, Dooku floored Skywaler a couple of times, but even then was really struggling to outright defeat him. And that was pretty early in the Clone Wars.
Weren't you referring to this encounter? This encounter is decent indication of limitations of Dooku. I understand that sand wasn't going to hurt Anakin but Dooku didn't seem to possess much options to use against Anakin which validates the opinion of Yoda about him that "much to learn you still have."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
-Mortis- What happened is confirmed canon.
The "how" factor is important. The events of this episode are not documented so we are left with questions and self-interpretations.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet for all the potential he didn't tap he was still easily the 3rd most Powerful Jedi in the Order, and a peer to One of the Most Powerful Jedi in the Order's history, and now an even More Powerful Sith Lord.
PT era Jedi Order is lacking in power factor; select few names do not reflect upon the competency of the Order on the whole. Therefore, Skywalker ranking no. 3 in this setting doesn't surprises me and is not a big deal.

As far as that remark about Dooku is concerned, I tend to take it less seriously now in the light of latest updates.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I tend to ignore Korupt Thanosi when he's debating Obi-Wan/Mace, lol.

LOL That's like all he debates on when it comes to Star Wars forums. I should probably follow your queue.

Intrepid37

hahaha

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! We need to realize that Dooku is no longer a BIG THING in the mythos.

When did this happen?

It seems whilst I see Anakin stalemating/defeating Dooku as a hugely impressive feat for Anakin, you seem to see it as proof that Dooku is no longer a big thing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I strongly disagree.

I meant in the movie era.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But they have shared history and Anakin benefited from it.

I don't see how Anakin benefited from that anymore than Dooku did. Besides Anakin was doing well against Dooku in only their encounter (TCW movie). Then he only grew more powerful during TCW. So their later fights reflect this without any hinting towards the "I can beat you because I know you so well" reasoning.

That would apply better to Anakin vs Kenobi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I attempt to control "unreasonable Anakin wanking" by using the Obi-Wan card. Just because Anakin overcame Dooku, doesn't means he can defeat any other powerful individual barring the 3 names you mentioned.

Again I meant the movie era. In any era there's obviously Luke, Caedus, Abeloth, Starkiller(possibly), Vitiatie. There might be a few more elites, but there will still only be an elite few Imho.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes! Now that you have noticed this shortcoming in Anakin, maybe you can now realize the possibility of him loosing to other powerful individuals.

Yes there are an Elite few Powerful beings that can take him. But make no mistake, he is Extremely Powerful, even when looking throughout the ages.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku's abilities are formidable but he is not exceptional in the grand picture. Dooku did benefit from his abilities against Anakin in several encounters; Dooku was eventually tasked to lure Anakin to the dark side by his Sith Master and he fell due to this plan.

Even if we accept Anakin's victory over Dooku was circumstantial, it's still clear Anakin is a peer to Dooku. And I don't think it's unreasonable at all to see Anakin as being More Powerful than Dooku by ROTS.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin is a powerful individual on the basis of his holistic picture; certainly "above average" at minimum.

Lol He's way above average by any standards or in any generation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree!

Even Dark Council members can be this damn powerful. I recall Nox doing this to Thanaton. I guess that Nox will eat Ventress for breakfast because Thanaton himself is much stronger then Ventress.

You may be underestimating Ventress. She's tooled Council Level members like Fisto (amongst the most celebrated swordsman in history), can easily challenge and defeat multiple Jedi simultaneously and has impresisve TK feats too.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Weren't you referring to this encounter? This encounter is decent indication of limitations of Dooku. I understand that sand wasn't going to hurt Anakin but Dooku didn't seem to possess much options to use against Anakin which validates the opinion of Yoda about him that "much to learn you still have."

That's what Yoda states to him in Battle. But when Dooku's not there he admits to his fellow Jedi that Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student" and "Most Learned in the Ways of the Force."

Yoda has a very high opinion of Dooku's abilites.

If you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with The Emperor, then I'd say you have to be Mace, Yoda or Anakin to compete with Count Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The "how" factor is important. The events of this episode are not documented so we are left with questions and self-interpretations.

It's on the official website.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
PT era Jedi Order is lacking in power factor; select few names do not reflect upon the competency of the Order on the whole. Therefore, Skywalker ranking no. 3 in this setting doesn't surprises me and is not a big deal.

You honestly believe PT era was one of the weaker era of Jedi? When Lucas himself states that was the Jedi in their Prime?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As far as that remark about Dooku is concerned, I tend to take it less seriously now in the light of latest updates.

I don't see why. Dooku is one of the elite few who can even fight Yoda. And he's more powerful than Maul. And even Maul has been named on numerous occasions as one of the most well trained and powerful Sith Lords ever.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin is more powerful than Dooku... not telekinetically, but in general, he is.

His Force Mastery sucks. He has enormous power, but he can't use it like Dooku can. Dooku is his superior in Force powers, he's consistently gotten the better of Skywalker through the Force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove there's a difference.

I don't need to. That quote can apply to TFU Vader just as much as it can RotS Vader.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
...

Obi-Wan beat Maul in TPM as well. You're not gonna argue that Obi-Wan was Maul's better, are you?

I didn't say that. I said he beat him. Which he did.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Moving that battlestation at least matches collapsing a cathedral.

No it doesn't.

Seriously though, in what way is Vader a 'shadow' of Anakin? Vader has a superior grasp of telekinesis and Force powers and he's no less skilled as a duelist.

And how do you think Anakin will beat Marek? What possible way could he beat him?

Intrepid37

1. I think ''sucks'' is taking it too far, but I agree that Dooku is Anakin's better in terms of Force usage.

2. no expression

The_Tempest

DP, the fact that you've resolved to ignore KT and yet continue to entertain posts from SWL is... perplexing.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP, the fact that you've resolved to ignore KT and yet continue to entertain posts from SWL is... perplexing.

Not talked much to SWL tbh. Whilst I've spent hours and hours trying to talk sense to KT.

Atm just attempting to get SWL to admit that his line of logic about Skywalker and Dooku not being all that powerful is clearly faulty.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. I think ''sucks'' is taking it too far, but I agree that Dooku is Anakin's better in terms of Force usage.

2. no expression

By that logic, the Vader that Maul fought in battle, which took place a little before TFU, would've been more powerful than the one in TFU, and Anakin is Maul's better in every way.

You're grasping at straws.

3. That's completely irrelevant to point out.

4. It clearly does. The station can fit at least ten starfighters not to mention how thick it is.

5. Eh. As of ANH, Vader isn't as powerful telekinetically, not as fast and far, far off as a duelist.

I like Vader a lot though, and I rank him on Dooku's level as of RotJ.

6. Just overpower him through a duel.

1. Well just look at how much better Luke is than him in every way. Luke grasps techniques with amazing swiftness and pulls abilities right out his ass constantly and he has basically no training at all, picking everything he's learned up on the fly. Meanwhile Anakin was trained by actual Jedi and is nowhere near his level. With the amount of power Anakin wields, he comes off as one of the most incompetent Jedi in history.

2. I don't understand the point you're making. Did you write these out of order?

3. Hence why I said 'besides.'

4. Nope. All Anakin did was tip it and even then he has the repulserlifts to help him AND he showed immense strain.

5. Vader is more powerful telekinetically, is a superior duelist and while he might not be as fast is immensely strong, has better actualised power and has his armor to protect him.

6. Bullshit. Marek would rip his head off.

Intrepid37

1. Fair.

2. The simple way is. You say that TFU Vader is better than ANH Vader since ANH Vader was a shadow of his former self (ie his TFU self). But then I can say that the Vader whom Maul fought would've been more powerful than TFU Vader since they fought before TFU occured.

3. So we agree that Maul is above Vader of that point?

4. So? Look at how big it is for christs sake.

5. Superior duelist? Seriously? Not even as of RotJ is he as good a duelist as Anakin, let alone as of ANH.

6. Like he did Shaak Ti and the other random Jedi?

The_Tempest

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not talked much to SWL tbh. Whilst I've spent hours and hours trying to talk sense to KT.

Atm just attempting to get SWL to admit that his line of logic about Skywalker and Dooku not being all that powerful is clearly faulty.

Your masochism is noted. May God have mercy on your soul.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Well just look at how much better Luke is than him in every way. Luke grasps techniques with amazing swiftness and pulls abilities right out his ass constantly and he has basically no training at all, picking everything he's learned up on the fly. Meanwhile Anakin was trained by actual Jedi and is nowhere near his level. With the amount of power Anakin wields, he comes off as one of the most incompetent Jedi in history.

It seems the Jedi actually held him back. Always teaching him to restrain his power. No one held Luke back, and Marek was obviously taught to go all out from day 1.

Still, Skywalker reached Saber Mastery pretty quickly.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its less illogical than to think that the Vader in TFU is less powerful than RotS Anakin when the former displays massively better feats and fights evenly someone hugely superior to Anakin.

Theres nothing indicating that he did not diminish between TFU and ANH.

The concept that Vader was weaker than he used to be is ancient history. Multiple sources depict him as being one of the most powerful Sith Lords even as of ANH.

Starkiller is not hugely superior to Anakin. No one is hugely superior to Anakin if we consider his top showings in ROTS. Not even Yoda could pwn Dooku in 30 seconds. Furthermore throughout the Clone Wars he consistently puts Tyranus on the ropes.

Even if you think Vader would defeat Dooku, you have to realize it would be a hell of a battle for both of them. And yet according to the novelization Anakin trivializes Dooku's power.

At this point I doubt even Sidious and Yoda could be considered 'hugely' superior to Anakin. This is further backed up by Mace stating that Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive. Meaning that he has the chops to compare to the top tier of the era i.e. Mace and Yoda.

Stating that Starkiller is 'hugely' more powerful than Anakin is insinuating that he's more powerful than Mace, Yoda, and even Sidious as of ROTS. I personally find this absurd.

You have to powerscale. I personally put Dooku at around Vader's level, perhaps a bit higher. And considering when Starkiller fought Vader it wasn't a stomp, he's around Vader's level as well. In fact when Anakin got in the zone he demolished Dooku with seemingly more ease than Starkiller defeating Dooku.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You aren't even trying to give ground.
Seriously?

I have offered best possible explanation about Anakin's strengths and weaknesses thus far. Anakin's issue is not with his potential but his shortcoming in understanding the ways of the Force and this is why he is typically not as effective as he can be.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes she is. She's in the SWTOR era, which is enough for you to wank her from here to kingdom come. The fact that you would sit here and debate that Satele Shan has better TK feats and saber off of the Hope video is ludicrous.
Seriously? If Satele existed in any other era and was as impressive as her existing canonical representation suggests her to be, I would be equally impressed by her. I am not ERA focused in my appreciation of things in Star Wars.

You are disturbed by the fact that Satele's actions in Hope Cinematic Trailer are superior to anything Anakin have shown in his duels thus far. Learn to accept that their are Force-users in the mythos (in addition to Mace, Sidious and Yoda) who are Anakin's superior. This should not be a BIG DEAL and neither this diminishes Anakin's relative standing in the mythos. Try to roll with latest updates.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's the way you fight me when you so clearly want to consen...I mean concede.
No...

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I create the mood for us to consummate our debate with furious sodomy.
sick

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Which is impressive. And something that has been hinted at since Yoda first said 'size matters not'.
If I use this feat as a criteria to decide Galen's chances against other powerful Force-users, I would be fooling myself.

When well-trained Force-users concentrate on an objective with extreme clarity and without external disturbance, they are capable of performing amazing actions in this kind of scenario. However, this level of concentration is not possible to accomplish in dueling scenarios.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes he is.

No, Dooku would, in raw sabers at least ravage Vader with his superior speed.
But Vader have strength on his side and can land more effective blows. He isn't slow either though not as fast as he used to be in natural form but he improved a lot with passage of time as he became accustomed to his cybernetic condition and modified his combat style accordingly. Still Galen outdueled him. So possibility exists that Galen is a match for Dooku in martial aspects as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A 747-400 has a 124 ton capacity compared to a weight of 487 tons.

A Lambda-class shuttle which is of comparable size has a cargo capacity of 80 tons. Using the same proportion of weight-cargo capacity a lambda class shuttle would weigh approximately 314 tons. But hey, let's say advanced tech makes a vessel half the size be able to carry that weight. That's still ~150 tons.
I don't understand how Lambda-class shuttle can carry 80 metric ton weight. It might be able to lift such level of weight externally like an helicopter does but not carry it within itself. Therefore, the craft itself is no where near as big and heavy as you are predicting it to be but technology is so advanced in Star Wars that logic isn't strong forte of it (or I am underestimating its size).

By the way, Maul moved an Eta-class shuttle which is lot smaller then Lambda class shuttle:-

Eta-class shuttle:-

2 crew
2 passengers

Lambda-class shuttle:-

8 crew
20 passengers

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Underestimation of Skywalker at its finest.
Nope.

Pit Satele or Malgus against Dooku and watch the latter getting overwhelmed even in exchange of Force powers. In contrast, Anakin have never been able to dominate Dooku with his Force abilities but have relatively superior feats. My explanation makes sense that Anakin lacks in his understanding of the ways of the Force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it isn't. Because the Star Destroyer was already falling, Galen merely redirected it. Skywalker moved a stable platform over in the course of a few seconds. Galen took minutes to redirect the destroyer.
You realize how big an Imperial Star Destroyer is? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Also, TFU works are more realistic in depicting actions then those low-budget CW cartoons are.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No. Galen will lose to Anakin.
thumb down

I guess that I am trying to reason about limitations of Anakin with a wrong person.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not really remarkable, they are good but remarkable is a broad term.
Priceless

Never in life, Malgus had been manhandled in such a humiliating manner as depicted in the Hope Cinematic Trailer and you think that Satele's actions are not remarkable. Fantastic.

If it was Anakin in Satele's place, you would be boasting about his incredible display of power at every given opportunity. Your double-standard is appalling.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol one of the options for the HoT when you get Orgus Din as a master is basically 'Uhh can I get Satele instead'
That is a dark side option, if I am not mistaken.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I suppose. I consider the Cold War era different than the Second Great War era because there are years and years in between.
The Jedi Order was impressive in both (sub) eras as far as I am aware.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wrong. Anakin is approaching that level by ROTS. Mace Windu hates Anakin and yet admits that one could make the argument that Anakin is stronger than not only himself, but Yoda.
Windu's assessment turned out to be wrong but Yoda's turned out to be correct. Do the math.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
-snip-

You just said that movies made in '03-'05 didn't have technical limitations...you do realize they killed off members of the Jedi Council because it'd be too expensive to animate them right? The prequels have plenty of limitations. Compare Episode 3's CGI to Avatar for example.

Anyway this argument has grown stale. And rather than addressing my points, you elect to cherrypick canon for the sake of your argument. So concession accepted. Good day Legend.

S_W_LeGenD

^^^

X-Men movies had comparable budget levels and they still contain superior action sequences of characters depicted in them. Direction is not a forte of Lucas.

---

So your reaction is to bail out when you loose footing in a debate? I have addressed all of your points with sound evidence on my part. If my latest responses are not refuted properly then I will assume that some people have pre-determined mindset about certain things in Star Wars and they do not want to change their mindset even if evidence exists to the contrary.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said, its from back when Satele was a Knight in the war. She blasts through the blast door (heh) and then whoops a Dark Council members ass. Good for her.

Yes, good for her. This doesn't suggest that she could overpower Anakin's Force defenses.

Yet it happens to be one of the rare instances in the mythos where we can actually compare like, analogous showings. And unless if you can establish that Anakin possesses some sort of disproportionate ability to fall great heights, he is >> Aryn.

Circular logic about her vs. Malgus aside...nothing here puts her above Anakin.

Yeah, but if he can bull through two armed sith with nonchalance...yeah, I don't see how Shan's taking them out should be seen as very impressive.

Anakin himself is no joke when it comes to the Force, though. You have to be quite significantly more powerful than your opponent to outright penetrate a Force shield.

Then she may try the same tactic here, and therefore die.

OK, but unless if you can establish Maul's power next to Satele's...

pencilcrayon

How fast are those rockets? The rate of fire from the rocket launcher wasn't very fast, yet Malgus was hit by the third rocket. The rockets themselves are somewhat quick.

Master Han

Oh, also, apparently in the RotS novelization, Anakin/Vader crushes a blast door before the arrival of Obi Wan.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When did this happen?

It seems whilst I see Anakin stalemating/defeating Dooku as a hugely impressive feat for Anakin, you seem to see it as proof that Dooku is no longer a big thing.
I suppose that you are not in touch with latest developments in the mythos?

Dooku still seems to be among the HIGH TIER characters but latest updates suggest that he possibly have many rivals and superiors in history. When Episode II came out, Dooku's appearance and performance left a big impression on audience. I was hooked as well.

Then BIOWARE and OBSIDIAN got involved in the business and began introducing some more impressive characters to the mythos.

KoTOR 1 came; big deal if Revan and Malak are possibly better then Dooku! They are still only 2.

KoTOR 2 came; big deal if Traya, Sion and Nihilus are possibly better then Dooku! They are still only 3.

SWTOR came; OMG; the hidden Sith Empire is not just led by a supremely powerful leader but it has a Dark Council whose members pack extraordinary capabilities of their own and then their are some outside the Dark Council who also hold their own. The Empire itself have very long history which translates to it producing a long list of dark side prodigies.

As lore continued to expand, it was then revealed that the Dark Council was actually subjected to extraordinary scale of competition within the Empire (Millions of Sith continuously competed with each other for its seats) and only the toughest made it to the Council but even then their was no guarantee of survival; you may find this hard to digest but even some extraordinarily powerful members of the Dark Council have not lasted a month in it in its history.

But the story doesn't ends here; SWTOR is also expanding on the story of even more ancient Sith and some of them are turning out to be monsters as well. And the process continues...

Now it seems like as if Dooku is possibly outgunned by hundreds of Sith in history. This still doesn't takes away from him being counted among the best in history (he is still superior to like MILLIONS) but he is no longer the BIG THING in grand picture.

Anakin's victory over Dooku is still impressive but the "elite-ness" of this accomplishment is now gone.

So when I come across remarks in favor of Dooku in debates which are based on outdated sources, I am forced to give people some reality check about latest updates. Some pay attention but some maintain their delusion because they cannot fathom their favorite characters to be overtaken or overshadowed by so many others. My beef with people is that they should roll with latest updates regardless of what they used to think. This is how the world works.

I mean, I am willing to accept that Revan have been possibly outgunned by more individuals then I originally thought but what can I do about this? I am willing to roll with latest updates.

This is how things are going to be in the future in Sci-Fi works. We personally expect newer works to be more impressive then older works. Our expectations drive innovation. But for some, old habits die hard as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I meant in the movie era.
My bad.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't see how Anakin benefited from that anymore than Dooku did. Besides Anakin was doing well against Dooku in only their encounter (TCW movie). Then he only grew more powerful during TCW. So their later fights reflect this without any hinting towards the "I can beat you because I know you so well" reasoning.

That would apply better to Anakin vs Kenobi.
Anakin benefited from being young while Dooku had reached his limits. Anakin had ample time to grow while Dooku would try to find ways to undermine him but would not succeed for long since Anakin had lot of room to improve and grow, thanks to his amazing potential.

Unfortunately for Dooku, dark side practices are known to take toll on bodies of living beings. Dooku still managed well for his age but their is an eventual breaking point and Dooku was on his way to it. I believe that Dooku did not receive massive training from Sidious because the latter had set his eyes on Anakin and wanted to use Dooku as a stop-gap. Dooku also did not find ways to address his shortcomings even though ancient records of Sith had answers for all of his shortcomings but scarcity and difficulty in obtaining such records possibly became a hurdle or that Dooku did not take much interest himself in these matters.

Yoda was correct about shortcomings in Dooku's understanding of the ways of the Force, even though the former admitted that Dooku was his most promising student and now he was learning a thing or two about Sith teachings as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again I meant the movie era. In any era there's obviously Luke, Caedus, Abeloth, Starkiller(possibly), Vitiatie. There might be a few more elites, but there will still only be an elite few Imho.
See above! I admit that Dooku might be above lot of Sith in history but the list of his superiors is possibly a lot bigger as well then is normally realized.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes there are an Elite few Powerful beings that can take him. But make no mistake, he is Extremely Powerful, even when looking throughout the ages.
Agreed

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even if we accept Anakin's victory over Dooku was circumstantial, it's still clear Anakin is a peer to Dooku. And I don't think it's unreasonable at all to see Anakin as being More Powerful than Dooku by ROTS.
Nicely put but I believe that Dooku's Force abilities were more refined and well developed then that of Anakin's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol He's way above average by any standards or in any generation.
Not an ELITE but HIGH TIER for sure. Anakin's psychological and Force knowledge based shortcomings reduce his effectiveness unfortunately. It seems like as if the Jedi Masters of his era were unable to make the best out of him. Such a waste.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You may be underestimating Ventress. She's tooled Council Level members like Fisto (amongst the most celebrated swordsman in history), can easily challenge and defeat multiple Jedi simultaneously and has impresisve TK feats too.
No! Trust me when I say this: ground realities of Dark Council are vastly different from that of Jedi High Council. Jedi do not have to compete with each other to acquire seats in the Council; they can become members through voting process. Due to this factor, Council members are not necessarily the strongest but more importantly role model followers of Jedi philosophy within the Order.

Fisto was good with a lightsaber but his Force abilities were below average. As an example: he couldn't even Force push Grievous properly (downed him for like 1 second). In contrast, Obi-Wan send Grievous packing in admirable fashion with his Force push and he doesn't have prodigious Force abilities.

Of-course, Ventress was competent in her own way but she falls short in comparison to really impressive individuals.

Dark Council members have demolished buildings; routed armies; disintegrated objects made of metal; dominated gigantic beasts; cut-down multiple competent foes like fodder; humiliated even (truly) powerful opponents with their powers; and possibly more....

The bar have been set too high.

Thanaton was a "supremely powerful" Sith with history of holding his own against overwhelming odds (He even assassinated the only known apprentice of Sith Emperor who rebelled; can you imagine?). Nox had to put him down with combined might of supernatural monstrosities, otherwise he was not succeeding. What surprises me most is that for all his power, Thanaton didn't even a last a day in the Dark Council with Nox on his trail. Scary stuff...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's what Yoda states to him in Battle. But when Dooku's not there he admits to his fellow Jedi that Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student" and "Most Learned in the Ways of the Force."

Yoda has a very high opinion of Dooku's abilites.
I am not doubting this...But sometimes truth slips out as well.

Yoda was actually right; Dooku didn't expand on his understanding of the ways of the Force much to acquire new talents to stop Anakin. It was always the same: lightsaber dueling or TK or lightning or combination of these. Nothing more.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with The Emperor, then I'd say you have to be Mace, Yoda or Anakin to compete with Count Dooku.
Yoda, Mace and Anakin have lot of potential peers then.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's on the official website.
It doesn't reveals much! We need detailed information. I hope it comes in future.

My beef with Mortis related lore is that Anakin in it is incredibly impressive but outside he is an individual with realistic limitations. So it is possible that the The Ones played some games with the Jedi visitors.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

X-Men movies had comparable budget levels and they still contain superior action sequences of characters depicted in them. Direction is not a forte of Lucas.

---

So your reaction is to bail out when you loose footing in a debate? I have addressed all of your points with sound evidence on my part. If my latest responses are not refuted properly then I will assume that some people have pre-determined mindset about certain things in Star Wars and they do not want to change their mindset even if evidence exists to the contrary.

I am not going to sit here and go back and forth with you on what is and isn't canon. When you do stupid stuff like limit PT characters to their movie showings, it really detracts from your argument and is why most people on this board generally don't respect your opinion. I am not "losing ground" in this debate. Your walls of text posts just exemplify how all over the place your arguments are. Throughout this debate I've tried to be concise in my arguments, you have in kind responded with chunks of text with varying levels of relevance to the matter at hand, which is Anakin vs. Satele Shan.

If you want to debate movie only characters then you can limit their battles to movie only characters. If you want to limit characters to their movie feats you can make a thread about that and write that in your OP. But in this thread you cannot arbitrarily dismiss canon feats that are just as canon as Satele's existence just because they don't match your opinion of a character's power.

And also, in your post you just asked me to prove Anakin was emotionally unstable, when if you just watch the film or read the novel its ****ing self evident. Minutes before the duel he was crying and after that more traumatizing events happened to him, also he's fighting the man who raised him since he was 10. Shit like that is exactly why I and going to stop responding to your posts now.