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Bane by Rule of Two is typically rated among the top dogs of the mythos. But what about his incarnation in the first book of his trilogy, when he's had perhaps a year or two of formal training?

30 minutes breaks.

1. TPM Obi Wan
2. AotC Anakin
3. Agen Kolar
4. TPM Qui Gon Jinn
5. TPM Darth Maul
6. RotS Obi Wan
7. RotS Dooku
8. Yoda

7, at least.

The Phantom Menace Scrapbook says the Sith grew stronger with each generation and Maul is, per a number of sources, one of the deadliest and most highly trained Sith of all time.

Bane goes down at 5 at the very latest.

'One of.'

Yup.

Maul, weakest that might beat him is Agen Kolar.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup.

Hardly conclusive. estahuh

Not really.

Maul is canonically more powerful and he's already confirmed by a variety of sources to be among the elite with respect to training, skill, and overall lethality.

Unquestionably Bane has a shot. (Barriss Offee gave Anakin a hard time, after all.) But the sources are on the Zabrak's side.

Nah, but fo realz, the quote you're talking about says 'As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation', which indicates a viable (and in my opinion more convincing) interpretation that its referred to them gaining more force powers with each generation, not that they're getting more powerful with each generation.

So, no, Maul is not canonically more powerful unless you think he's also more powerful than Sidious as well.

I'm aware what the quote says (I provided it lol). But given that the very foundation of the Rule of Two was centered around each subsequent generation surpassing (not merely replacing) the preceding one, I believe my interpretation is correct: the Sith simply grew more powerful, be it in the number of accumulated powers or the enhancement of preexisting abilities, or a combination of both.

In either case, I would regard Maul as more powerful (or at the very least, potentially more powerful) than Sidious if we didn't already know that Maul wasn't more powerful than Sidious.

Sidious is explicitly defined as an exception, whereas Bane isn't.

I stand by my decision.

The quote specifically says that their 'powers' grow as their knowledge does. Overall Force power is unrelated to knowledge, so I don't see how you could interpret it the way you are. The correct interpretation appears to me that their knowledge of the darkside and catalogue of powers grew over generations. The Rule of Two may be centered around that concept, but it isn't like its universal law or something, wherein they always find a Force User powerful enough to surpass the preceding generation. They can surpass them in other ways. Cognus for instance isn't mentioned as being that strong, but her Force-dulling ability is potent despite that. Or as I said, force knowledge. Or just having a specific skillset thats effective against their master, like how Zannah defeated Bane despite him being her marked superior.

Also I re-posted the exact quote so that others could see the exact wording and not be taken in by your suggestion that its a flat-out statement of them growing more powerful over time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
7, at least.

PoD Bane is already above Dooku? Based on what?

His lightning was already potent enough to disintegrate, he's capable of tearing through the barriers of Sith Lords and utterly owning them, he's extremely skilled 'beyond forms', plenty fast and strong and he has the temple destruction feat.

I didn't say he was above Dooku though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The quote specifically says that their 'powers' grow as their knowledge does.

I'm aware. Remember, I've known about the quote longer than you. But the term's plurality doesn't undermine my assertion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Overall Force power is unrelated to knowledge, so I don't see how you could interpret it the way you are.

According to whom? The reborn Emperor "studied the dark side to become even more powerful" according to The Ultimate Visual Guide.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The correct interpretation appears to me that their knowledge of the darkside and catalogue of powers grew over generations.

But none of that precludes the enhancement of more universal abilities in the intervening generations.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Rule of Two may be centered around that concept, but it isn't like its universal law or something, wherein they always find a Force User powerful enough to surpass the preceding generation. They can surpass them in other ways. Cognus for instance isn't mentioned as being that strong, but her Force-dulling ability is potent despite that. Or as I said, force knowledge. Or just having a specific skillset thats effective against their master, like how Zannah defeated Bane despite him being her marked superior.

Zannah defeated Bane legitimately and even if he were "more powerful" than she at the time of his death, that doesn't preclude her from surpassing him as the years went by, just like Darths Plagueis & Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I re-posted the exact quote so that others could see the exact wording and not be taken in by your suggestion that its a flat-out statement of them growing more powerful over time.

Their powers increased, which means that they were more powerful. Commensurate with Bane's vision of the Rule of Two, this is the most reasonable interpretation.

I stand by my decision, Bane falls at Maul at the very latest. He probably makes it past TPM!Obi-Wan, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His lightning was already potent enough to disintegrate,

This doesn't really put him on Dooku's level. Plenty of sith can disintegrate with lightning.



Said Sith Lords are weaklings by Dooku's standards. Bane and Kas'im are the only sith of that era of any noteworthy power. Also remember that Dooku pulled off a similar feat against Obi Wan, and against three nightsisters while drugged.



Context: Kas'im said that while teaching the young Bane a basic tenant of Force/saber dueling that Dooku, being a legendary lightsaber fanatic, certainly would have grasped. Notice that by that point, Bane still wasn't entirely ready to defeat Sirak yet.



...this is supposed to put him on Dooku's level? Seriously?



Impressive, but I doubt Dooku would give him time to charge up a Force wave.

Dooku at this point has vastly superior feats, taking on Yoda and holding his own, and Bane doesn't do very well against unfamiliar saber forms; Tyranus rivals Kas'im in technical skill.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm aware. Remember, I've known about the quote longer than you. But the term's plurality doesn't undermine my assertion.



According to whom? The reborn Emperor "studied the dark side to become even more powerful" according to The Ultimate Visual Guide.



But none of that precludes the enhancement of more universal abilities in the intervening generations.



Zannah defeated Bane legitimately and even if he were "more powerful" than she at the time of his death, that doesn't preclude her from surpassing him as the years went by, just like Darths Plagueis & Sidious.



Their powers increased, which means that they were more powerful. Commensurate with Bane's vision of the Rule of Two, this is the most reasonable interpretation.

I stand by my decision, Bane falls at Maul at the very latest. He probably makes it past TPM!Obi-Wan, though.

Nah the other interpretation is still right and just as valid as yours.

Also, you *******, in your PM you said you only started busting my balls in reaction to my double standards but I was going through old threads and here you started acting like a stubborn jackass for no reason. You filthy liar. I'm definitely bringing that up when I can stomach your stupid mountain of words.

Peace, guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkZC7sqImaM

Now, let's get back to talking about Bane killing people, until he gets killed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah the other interpretation is still right and just as valid as yours.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, you *******, in your PM you said you only started busting my balls in reaction to my double standards but I was going through old threads and here you started acting like a stubborn jackass for no reason. You filthy liar. I'm definitely bringing that up when I can stomach your stupid mountain of words.

That was me busting your balls in reaction to your double standards. Nobody said anything about a double standard post from you had to directly precede a ball busting post from me.

Originally posted by Master Han
Peace, guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkZC7sqImaM

Now, let's get back to talking about Bane killing people, until he gets killed.

He definitely dies at 5, almost certainly makes it past 1.

I don't agree with the Tempest's claim that each successive generation of sith is absolutely more powerful than the last (this may indicate a general trend, as well as "power" in other categories), but it's actually not inconceivable that Maul could take down Bane.

Remember that all of the Sith Lords Bane pwns are weaklings in the grand scheme of things. And the narrator's description of his fight against Kas'im suggests that he only did so well initially because he intimately knew all of the blademaster's moves. Sort of like how Obi Wan did so well against Anakin.

Originally posted by The_Tempest




That was me busting your balls in reaction to your double standards. Nobody said anything about a double standard post from you had to directly precede a ball busting post from me.

I can't be asked to get into a big argument over it. Lets just agree to disagree. Theres nothing else for me to add anyway, I've made my point. Anything else would devolve into nitpicking specific lines.


I made no double standard, you just started being mean for no reason. A reaction needs something to react to. I didn't do jack. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't agree with the Tempest's claim that each successive generation of sith is absolutely more powerful than the last (this may indicate a general trend, as well as "power" in other categories),

You may or may not subscribe to my interpretation of the quote, but nonetheless, the Sith did factually improve with some respect to power (be it preexisting abilities, number of mastered techniques, or both) with each generation according to The Phantom Menace Scrapbook.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You may or may not subscribe to my interpretation of the quote, but nonetheless, the Sith did factually improve with some respect to power (be it preexisting abilities, number of mastered techniques, or both) with each generation according to The Phantom Menace Scrapbook.

Yes, but it doesn't work absolutely between every Sith; otherwise, Darth Maul would be more powerful than Palpatine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't be asked to get into a big argument over it. Lets just agree to disagree. Theres nothing else for me to add anyway, I've made my point. Anything else would devolve into nitpicking specific lines.

lol ok

Originally posted by Nephthys
I made no double standard, you just started being mean for no reason. A reaction needs something to react to. I didn't do jack. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Again, no one said that for a reaction to occur, your double standards had to directly precede my ball busting in a post in any given thread. It might have happened on another contemporary thread and I simply posted my reaction to another one just to irk you.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but it doesn't work absolutely between every Sith; otherwise, Darth Maul would be more powerful than Palpatine.

As I've already explained, we know from a number of sources ranging from George Lucas to Dave Filoni to The Dark Side Sourcebook that Palpatine is more powerful than Maul.

He is identified as an exception to this otherwise absolute trend. The fact that one exception is explicitly and consistently identified does not prove the existence of other exceptions.

Meaning until otherwise noted, it stands.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As I've already explained, we know from a number of sources ranging from George Lucas to Dave Filoni to The Dark Side Sourcebook that Palpatine is more powerful than Maul.

He is identified as an exception to this otherwise absolute trend. The fact that one exception is explicitly and consistently identified does not prove the existence of other exceptions.

Meaning until otherwise noted, it stands.

This interpretation doesn't really make any sense. How, exactly, could you guarantee that your apprentice has greater Force potential than yourself? What are the chances of this even being true? You can gradually increase in knowledge, connections and skill, which ultimately will result in a greater average level of power in the long run, but Bane couldn't possibly expect that every generation of Sith would find someone more powerful to train.

Therefore, we can expect a steady, but very gradual and certainly not absolute, increase in power.

----

Also, you're sort of contradicting yourself here; if Palpatine and Maul's relationship goes against the norm, isn't it possible that this is because Maul simply wasn't intended to be a true successor (note that Plagueis was still alive while Maul was supposedly the other half of the RoT), and therefore you cannot conclude that he is above Bane?

Originally posted by Master Han
This interpretation doesn't really make any sense. How, exactly, could you guarantee that your apprentice has greater Force potential than yourself? What are the chances of this even being true? You can gradually increase in knowledge, connections and skill, which ultimately will result in a greater average level of power in the long run, but Bane couldn't possibly expect that every generation of Sith would find someone more powerful to train.

Therefore, we can expect a steady, but very gradual and certainly not absolute, increase in power.

If you're referring to power here as "midi-chlorian count," then I'd agree that there can be no reasonable guarantee.

But my conceptualization of power and one, I believe, is reflected in the quote instead refers to knowledge, understanding, technique, skill.

In the former context, TPM!Anakin was "more powerful" than Sidious and Yoda even at the tender and untested age of 9. But he couldn't hope to beat them in a fight because he doesn't have direct access to that latent power.

----

Originally posted by Master Han
Also, you're sort of contradicting yourself here; if Palpatine and Maul's relationship goes against the norm, isn't it possible that this is because Maul simply wasn't intended to be a true successor (note that Plagueis was still alive while Maul was supposedly the other half of the RoT), and therefore you cannot conclude that he is above Bane?

Palpatine's bullshit to Plagueis notwithstanding, a number of sources indicate Maul was trained legitimately in the Sith arts. Given that George and extant canon apparently recognizes Maul as such, we can conclude that Sidious fed Plagueis a bowl of lies and Plagueis eagerly lapped it up.

That said, there is no contradiction. At the time of Maul's first and second defeat, he hadn't grown more powerful than Sidious.

Nowhere do I write off the possibility that he could have become more powerful at the end of his training.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If you're referring to power here as "midi-chlorian count," then I'd agree that there can be no reasonable guarantee.

But my conceptualization of power and one, I believe, is reflected in the quote instead refers to knowledge, understanding, technique, skill.

In the former context, TPM!Anakin was "more powerful" than Sidious and Yoda even at the tender and untested age of 9. But he couldn't hope to beat them in a fight because he doesn't have direct access to that latent power.


Darth Maul certainly has greater lightsaber technical knowledge and various combative skills than Bane, although it's questionable whether he exceeds Bane's knowledge in the Force, given his finding of the Revan holocran. But this doesn't lead us to the conclusion that he could defeat Bane in combat.



But again, this doesn't put Maul on Bane's level unto itself.



If Sidious had sensed such potential in Maul, he certainly would not have been so nonchalant about his death. As powerful as Maul was, he wasn't good enough for Sidious to consider him as a potential successor. Not even Dooku was much more than a placeholder.

Han has a point, If Sidious and Maul are exceptions to your quote, then Maul needn't be more powerful than Bane.

Originally posted by Master Han
This doesn't really put him on Dooku's level. Plenty of sith can disintegrate with lightning.

Correct, it puts him above Dooku in that particular aspect. Just like the other Sith who replicate the feat.

Originally posted by Master Han
Said Sith Lords are weaklings by Dooku's standards. Bane and Kas'im are the only sith of that era of any noteworthy power. Also remember that Dooku pulled off a similar feat against Obi Wan, and against three nightsisters while drugged.

I wouldn't call Qordis a weakling. Certainly he is no Dooku, but the man was the headmaster of the academy the most powerful Sith were trained in.

Originally posted by Master Han
Context: Kas'im said that while teaching the young Bane a basic tenant of Force/saber dueling that Dooku, being a legendary lightsaber fanatic, certainly would have grasped. Notice that by that point, Bane still wasn't entirely ready to defeat Sirak yet.

Again, I didn't say he was above Dooku. Regardless, Bane progressed to the point where Kas'im had nothing more to teach him.

Originally posted by Master Han
...this is supposed to put him on Dooku's level? Seriously?

No, it was a vague allusion to attributes I couldn't be bothered to quantify. Suffice to say I don't think Bane is outclassed in those regards.

Originally posted by Master Han
Impressive, but I doubt Dooku would give him time to charge up a Force wave.

Dooku at this point has vastly superior feats, taking on Yoda and holding his own, and Bane doesn't do very well against unfamiliar saber forms; Tyranus rivals Kas'im in technical skill.

:shrug: It speaks of Banes telekinetic ability, and if he is able to buy himself space enough to do it I think it would rock Dooku hard or beat him outright. Maybe he could charge it during that 30 minutes of rest.

Dookus feats aren't vastly superior and I don't see why Bane would be unfamiliar with Makashi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Darth Maul certainly has greater lightsaber technical knowledge and various combative skills than Bane, although it's questionable whether he exceeds Bane's knowledge in the Force, given his finding of the Revan holocran. But this doesn't lead us to the conclusion that he could defeat Bane in combat.

Bane very well may surpass Maul with respect to random dark side trivia and might potentially beat him at a game of Sith Jeopardy with Darth Trebek, but I have no reason to believe such things would necessarily aid him in a martial contest.

That possibility conceded, I must again defer you to the quote, which says that Sith knowledge deepens over time, reducing the likelihood of Bane's dark side knowledge eclipsing Maul's as unlikely.

Originally posted by Master Han
But again, this doesn't put Maul on Bane's level unto itself.

Of course not. But that Maul was part of a generation whose knowledge and powers are explicitly noted to have grown with respect to Bane's, I regard him as the superior Sith.

Not to mention that Maul, unlike Bane, is explicitly referred to as one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith Lords of all time.

This is virtually no different than our disagreement with Neph about Scourge vis a vis Maul. One is noted to be among the very best whereas the other is not, impressive feats notwithstanding.

Maul simply has better standing canonically.

Originally posted by Master Han
If Sidious had sensed such potential in Maul, he certainly would not have been so nonchalant about his death. As powerful as Maul was, he wasn't good enough for Sidious to consider him as a potential successor. Not even Dooku was much more than a placeholder.

Perhaps a placeholder compared for an even more potentially powerful candidate, a la Anakin Skywalker. But nowhere is Maul's potential definitively declared to be beneath his Master's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Correct, it puts him above Dooku in that particular aspect. Just like the other Sith who replicate the feat.


Is disintegration (can he even do that by PoD?) above disarming three nightsisters while drugged?



A position more of authority than power; Kas'im was subordinate to Qordis, yet their relative performances against Bane make it clear that the latter would lolroflstomp the latter.

It's likely that AotC Obi Wan > Qordis (by a lot), and Dooku toys with him.



I didn't say you said that, and so had Obi Wan to Qui Gon Jinn. This doesn't put Obi Wan on his master's level by TPM.



In physical strength? He's above Dooku, not that it's terribly important. In speed? I dunno, Dooku can keep up with Yoda and speed-blitz Obi Wan.



Yeah, I wasn't exactly thinking about such a loophole. Resting is just for resting. A no-holds-barred Dooku, IMO is dropping Bane in a matter of seconds.



Dooku's feats are vastly superior; he's given Yoda a good fight, and defeated even Anakin and Obi Wan together before the former went in teh zone.

Meanwhile, Dooku knows not only Makashi (which Bane couldn't have really known to any degree beyond mild proficiency, given his limited training), but pretty much every lightsaber form. He, again, rivals Kas'im, while being far more powerful in the Force.

could stop as low as 5 for me, with a bit more rest time he may make 7-8. might get lucky at 7 but don't see him even touching Yoda with full rest.

Loses at 5.

Dies at Kolar.

Originally posted by Nephthys
7, at least.

Originally posted by Master Han


Also, you're sort of contradicting yourself here; if Palpatine and Maul's relationship goes against the norm, isn't it possible that this is because Maul simply wasn't intended to be a true successor (note that Plagueis was still alive while Maul was supposedly the other half of the RoT), and therefore you cannot conclude that he is above Bane?

It doesn't really go against the norm because Maul never overthrew Palpatine to become Master. Maul was still very young at the time of TPM (younger than Padawan Obi-Wan I believe).

If Maul became the Master, killed Sidious by some fluke, but was still never as powerful as Sidious was, then you could argue the Rule of Two has not worked properly there.

Originally posted by Master Han



If Sidious had sensed such potential in Maul, he certainly would not have been so nonchalant about his death.


According to TPM Novel and Darth Maul's Journal(last entry by Sidious), Sidious was not happy about Maul's death.

However becoming Supreme Chancellor and discovering Skywalker probably put him in a much better mood about the whole Maul dying thing.

But fact is Sidious DID put a lot of time and effort into training Maul. He didn't do that just to pass time.

I also think he dies at 5, but barely. After all, this is PoD Bane, not RoT or DoE. If he managed to survive 5, he dies at 6.

I could be annoying and point out that if we're going by G-Canon considerations, Bane clears this with ease, goes find Sidious and makes him his lady, takes him dancing and on a few moonlit strolls while he explains the rule of two to him, introduces him to Dxun and his other former bitches, but I wouldn't do that.

If we're going by C-Canon showings (and ignoring G-Canon limitations) what are Yoda's better feats? He still gets past Dooku easily either way but I'd be interested to hear what Yoda's feats are.

PoD Bane gets past Dooku easily?

You must be smoking something hard.

Yeah, this is PoD Bane... No level of canon ever puts him on Dooku's level.

What exactly has Dooku demonstrated that makes them even slightly comparable? Dooku's showings by comparison are mild and pedestrian, Bane literally demonstrates unprecedented abilities throughout the novel. Naturally G-Canon Dooku and his superiors struggle with low level telekinesis, it's not even up for debate how they would do, but I am allowing you to ignore his G-Canon limitations and just go wild with whatever you can find in the EU.

In PoD...?

What has Dooku demonstrated...? You serious?

Bane has nearly no feats worth mentioning in PoD.

You guys crazy.

You do realize PoD means Path of Destruction? Bane's first book?

Mention a PoD Bane feat that puts him on the level of the guy who tooled AOTC Anakin and Kenobi, is superior to most Council members in the PT and is stated as "one of the greatest Jedi in the 25,000 year Order" and "an even greater Sith".

Originally posted by noitseuq
I could be annoying and point out that if we're going by G-Canon considerations, Bane clears this with ease, goes find Sidious and makes him his lady, takes him dancing and on a few moonlit strolls while he explains the rule of two to him, introduces him to Dxun and his other former bitches, but I wouldn't do that.

If we're going by C-Canon showings (and ignoring G-Canon limitations) what are Yoda's better feats? He still gets past Dooku easily either way but I'd be interested to hear what Yoda's feats are.

I know what you're trying to say. But you're wrong.

Anakin's falling from hundreds of meters and hitting a moving airspeeder with perfect timing and no injury whatsoever is more impressive than anything Bane does in Path of Destruction.

Yes. Bane in PoD isn't that impressive. He's good, just not very good. His only good feat is defeating Kas'im, who actually was handing him his ass in the sabers department.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
In PoD...?

What has Dooku demonstrated...? You serious?

Yes. He's literally one of the few guys that has never impressed me in any of the sources he's appeared in. Even in the original CW cartoon he literally did nothing. His skills as far as I know basically begin and end at performing low scale Force Powers, being a master of Makashi, occasionally owning lesser Jedi with force powers or in a lightsaber duel, and not being as good as Yoda or Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Han
I know what you're trying to say. But you're wrong.

Anakin's falling from hundreds of meters and hitting a moving airspeeder with perfect timing and no injury whatsoever is more impressive than anything Bane does in Path of Destruction.

Quantify and substantiate this please.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dies at Kolar.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this is the case, barring of course that Agen only achieved elite status among the order's swordsmen post-AOTC. Assuming he's roughly the same skill level, Bane probably drops here.

Still thinking he makes it past TPM!Obi-Wan after a tough fight.

Oh you!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bane has nearly no feats worth mentioning in PoD.

BTW I totally have stuff ready, I'm just waiting for someone to make a convincing argument for Dooku.

Originally posted by noitseuq
His skills as far as I know basically begin and end at performing low scale Force Powers,

He was a telekenisis instructor and was considered to be immensely powerful in the Force, as per various accolades, including Stover's description of him in the RotS novelization.



Not just a master - the master. His technical skills rival Kas'im's; they're up there among the greatest in the mythos.



You think RotS Obi Wan is a "lesser" Jedi? Kenobi has been routinely described as one of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order has ever produced, and possibly the premier soresu master in history.



He gives Yoda a good fight...that's far more than PoD Bane's ever done.

Furthermore, Dooku has an infinitely larger array of technical expertise than the inexperienced Bane, who was put on his ass in seconds by jar'kai...Dooku knows jar'kai (although realistically doesn't have two sabers here) and plenty of other lightsaber forms and combinations Bane would be unfamiliar with.

-------------

As for quantifying Anakin's feat in AotC...well, I'm too lazy to do the maths now, but we know that he hits an airspeeder at terminal velocity and deccelerates to zero vertically, while accelerating to however fast the airspeeder was moving horizontally, in a fraction of a second.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this is the case, barring of course that Agen only achieved elite status among the order's swordsmen post-AOTC. Assuming he's roughly the same skill level, Bane probably drops here.

Still thinking he makes it past TPM!Obi-Wan after a tough fight.
Yep. Bane lacks good feats. His lightning is powerful, but Kolar should be able to block it with his lightsaber. Bane is a more powerful telekinetic, but Vos has levitated a huge boulder, and he never used telekinesis on Kolar. Kolar, on the other hand, has been recognized as one of the best swordsmen in the order more than three times, one of the best ever produced one time, and is held in high regard by respectable Jedi such as Mace, Shaak Ti and Kenobi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
barring of course that Agen only achieved elite status among the order's swordsmen post-AOTC
Not because I don't agree with your intended point, and this might be true, but Kolar's skills were ''renowned'' as of AotC (it doesn't mean much, but personally, I think it's safe to say he's enormously skilled pre-RotS).

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/Kolarhasrenownedskills_zps05fc90c8.png

In other words, vague outlandish hyperbole and wild speculation.

Bro.

Please.



That's what I thought bro.

People seem to give Dooku a free pass for basically doing nothing of note beyond being the firm no 4 guy of his era.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yep. Bane lacks good feats. His lightning is powerful, but Kolar should be able to block it with his lightsaber. Bane is a more powerful telekinetic, but Vos has levitated a huge boulder, and he never used telekinesis on Kolar. Kolar, on the other hand, has been recognized as one of the best swordsmen in the order more than three times, one of the best ever produced one time, and is held in high regard by respectable Jedi such as Mace, Shaak Ti and Kenobi.


Not because I don't agree with your intended point, and this might be true, but Kolar's skills were ''renowned'' as of AotC (it doesn't mean much, but personally, I think it's safe to say he's enormously skilled pre-RotS).

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/Kolarhasrenownedskills_zps05fc90c8.png

Seems reasonable. Though I do question POD!Bane's telekinetic prowess; the only noteworthy feat I recall is Bane's demolition of the temple on Lehon, which is an extraordinarily powerful nexus of Force energy. I see no reason to conclude that he'd be able to duplicate the feat on neutral ground.

To say nothing of the fact that the wave was resisted by Kas'im, whose Force strength and mastery are unattested among the Brotherhood noted to be collectively weak.

Agen Kolar, one of the best in the golden age of the Jedi arts, would very likely be able to resist such telekinesis, though that is more inference than conclusive fact.

It seems every feat in the mythos has been performed on a nexus of some kind so it all balances out in the end. Last time Dooku was on a darkside nexus I believe he got rather humiliated by a jedi who himself can hardly lift a senate pod while on the most powerful lightside nexus in the galaxy! Clearly nexus or no nexus, Dooku isn't ever destroying a temple.

True. I'm thinking more of crushing Qordis' telekinetically, but then we could point out that Qordis is utterly featless.

Whoops, double post.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Seems reasonable. Though I do question POD!Bane's telekinetic prowess; the only noteworthy feat I recall is Bane's demolition of the temple on Lehon, which is an extraordinarily powerful nexus of Force energy. I see no reason to conclude that he'd be able to duplicate the feat on neutral ground.

To say nothing of the fact that the wave was resisted by Kas'im, whose Force strength and mastery are unattested among the Brotherhood noted to be collectively weak.

Agen Kolar, one of the best in the golden age of the Jedi arts, would very likely be able to resist such telekinesis, though that is more inference than conclusive fact.
True. I'm thinking more of crushing Qordis' telekinetically, but then we could point out that Qordis is utterly featless.

He likely could. As I said, Vos' feat makes him at least Bane's equal in terms of power, and Vos never did anything to Kolar telekinetically.

That said, I don't think Force powers will come in play.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
True. I'm thinking more of crushing Qordis' telekinetically, but then we could point out that Qordis is utterly featless.

That's true. And while Qordis enjoys high standing among the Brotherhood, Bane muses more than once that the Brotherhood is simply fodder in the grand scheme of things.

So I might be willing to award Bane superior telekinetic powers (just as I would award him superiority over Kas'im), but not to the extent that it would prove a decisive advantage.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's true. And while Qordis enjoys high standing among the Brotherhood, Bane muses more than once that the Brotherhood is simply fodder in the grand scheme of things.

So I might be willing to award Bane superior telekinetic powers (just as I would award him superiority over Kas'im), but not to the extent that it would prove a decisive advantage.
Agreed.

Having questioned his chances of victory over Kolar, I find myself questioning whether he can triumph over Obi-Wan.

Kenobi did give Maul, Bane's superior by a multitude of generations, hell after Qui-Gon's defeat.

Questionable interpretations aside we have every reason to believe that the Brotherhood was among the finer Sith orders from a combat standpoint in the organization's history.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Having questioned his chances of victory over Kolar, I find myself questioning whether he can triumph over Obi-Wan.

Kenobi did give Maul, Bane's superior by a multitude of generations, hell after Qui-Gon's defeat.
He did draw on the dark side though.

But I question his victory over Obi-Wan as well. Jinn is Bane's better as well, and I find it hard to believe that, given their comparable performance against Maul in TPM, that Jinn is Kenobi's superior by a big nod.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He did draw on the dark side though.

But I question his victory over Obi-Wan as well. Jinn is Bane's better as well, and I find it hard to believe that, given their comparable performance against Maul in TPM, that Jinn is Kenobi's superior by a big nod.

That's true. But while rageless!Obi-Wan was not Maul's equal in combat, he wasn't exactly a non-factor even when confined to his natural aptitude.

I suppose, just on the safe side, I'll maintain my stance that Bane defeats Obi-Wan after a grueling battle.

You agree Bane loses at Jinn though?

Well we know Jinn was among the best; The Jedi Academy Training Manual states that Jinn is a superior duelist to Anoon Bondara, himself considered one of the best.

That Jinn was elite in the golden age of Jedi combat suggests superiority over Bane as a duelist, yes.

Interesting about the Jinn>Anoon fact.

I've gotten more respect for Jinn the last week. I found a passage in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia which confirms him as one of the most skilled Jedi ever produced. He's certainly not the fodder that some think he is.

I have reported you Intrepid for blatant trolling.

damn

Jesus Neph call yourself my padawan! I can see that you're online and you haven't backed me up once.

Neb, you troller!

LMAO

Originally posted by noitseuq
Jesus Neph call yourself my padawan! I can see that you're online and you haven't backed me up once.

Theres so many thing I want to respond to in this thread its a little overwhelming. Typing up a reply to Han atm.

Originally posted by Master Han
Is disintegration (can he even do that by PoD?) above disarming three nightsisters while drugged?

Uh, yes. By quite a freaking lot? Its a good show of skill perhaps, but in terms of actual power and destructive ability not very impressive to my mind at all. The fact is that if Dooku was really that proficient in Force Lightning he wouldn't have required multiple blasts to keep Savage away from him. Put Bane against Savage in that fight and he'd be dead after a single blast.

Originally posted by Master Han
A position more of authority than power; Kas'im was subordinate to Qordis, yet their relative performances against Bane make it clear that the latter would lolroflstomp the latter.

It's likely that AotC Obi Wan > Qordis (by a lot), and Dooku toys with him.

That is true, though remember that Qordis is the headmaster of a Sith academy. Authority is power in that case. If Qordis was a weakling his students would obviously challenge him. And these are the most powerful Sith in the galaxy he's training.

I don't really see much from AotC Obi-Wan to make me rate him that highly. Qordis' position gives me enough reason to think of him as at least being a decently powerful Sith Lord. Mediocre. AotC Obi-Wan is above that, but hardly by a lot.

Originally posted by Master Han
I didn't say you said that, and so had Obi Wan to Qui Gon Jinn. This doesn't put Obi Wan on his master's level by TPM.

True, but Kas'im possesses a lot more lightsaber knowledge than Qui-Gon does. And Bane did surpass Kas'im. Perhaps not in overall skill, but in lightsaber ability he did.

Originally posted by Master Han
In physical strength? He's above Dooku, not that it's terribly important. In speed? I dunno, Dooku can keep up with Yoda and speed-blitz Obi Wan.

I don't think he can speed-blitz Obi-Wan personally. He wasn't able to speed-blitz AotC Anakin (else he wouldn't duel him until he's tired), so I see no reason he could speedblitz RotS Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, I wasn't exactly thinking about such a loophole. Resting is just for resting. A no-holds-barred Dooku, IMO is dropping Bane in a matter of seconds.

Lawl, no way is Bane getting dropped in seconds bro.

Originally posted by Master Han
Dooku's feats are vastly superior; he's given Yoda a good fight, and defeated even Anakin and Obi Wan together before the former went in teh zone.

Meanwhile, Dooku knows not only Makashi (which Bane couldn't have really known to any degree beyond mild proficiency, given his limited training), but pretty much every lightsaber form. He, again, rivals Kas'im, while being far more powerful in the Force.

They're not vastly superior. Bane is his marked superior in terms of Lightning and is high-class with his lightsaber ability and telekinesis.

That isn't the same thing. Bane couldn't deal with Dual Lightsabers because he's never faced it before and had no idea what to expect or what it could do. Dooku still only uses a single lightsaber, so even if he's somewhat unfamiliar with Makashi (which is unlikely, I'm sure Kas'im would have used it against him enough for him to be familiar with fighting it. In fact, I seem to recall that Farfalla used Makashi in his fight with Bane) he's not going to be overwhelmed with possibilities.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Yes. Bane in PoD isn't that impressive. He's good, just not very good. His only good feat is defeating Kas'im, who actually was handing him his ass in the sabers department.

Kas'im only gained the upperhand through a gap in Bane's ability that he'd created. In a straight lightsaber duel Bane was beating him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this is the case, barring of course that Agen only achieved elite status among the order's swordsmen post-AOTC. Assuming he's roughly the same skill level, Bane probably drops here.

Still thinking he makes it past TPM!Obi-Wan after a tough fight.

Nah man, Bane is more powerful than Agen. I don't see how Agen would be able to block his lightning, which is more powerful than anything Agen has come up against.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
To say nothing of the fact that the wave was resisted by Kas'im, whose Force strength and mastery are unattested among the Brotherhood noted to be collectively weak.

Agen Kolar, one of the best in the golden age of the Jedi arts, would very likely be able to resist such telekinesis, though that is more inference than conclusive fact.

The wave was resisted by Kas'im.... because its a wave. By its very nature, only a small part of the attack actually struck Kas'im. If Bane chose to focus that amount of power into a more direct, focused attack I'm not seeing Kolar blocking it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's true. And while Qordis enjoys high standing among the Brotherhood, Bane muses more than once that the Brotherhood is simply fodder in the grand scheme of things.

So I might be willing to award Bane superior telekinetic powers (just as I would award him superiority over Kas'im), but not to the extent that it would prove a decisive advantage.

Theres nothing suggesting the Brotherhood was especially shitty in terms of actual combat. Bane thinks that they'd lost their way, not that they flat-out suck. One only has to look at Kaox Krul to see that the Brotherhood has some premier combatants, not to mention Kopecz who killed an entire squad of the Republic finest before they could fire more than once.

On top of Bane lightning and with as you say roughly the same skill level theres no advantage Agen has over Bane that enables him to win.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well we know Jinn was among the best; The Jedi Academy Training Manual states that Jinn is a superior duelist to Anoon Bondara, himself considered one of the best.

That Jinn was elite in the golden age of Jedi combat suggests superiority over Bane as a duelist, yes.

Jinn may be technically skilled, in Ataru I believe, but by his own admission he was old and outside his prime. Besides which is that he has no force feats that stand out as anything special. Or even mediocre if I think about it.

Did he even do anything with the Force in that movie? mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah man, Bane is more powerful than Agen. I don't see how Agen would be able to block his lightning, which is more powerful than anything Agen has come up against.

Bane may very well be more powerful, but as you yourself often proclaim, power is not an inherently decisive advantage in the context of a duel.

Agen is armed with his lightsaber, which should be adequate to contain and deflect Bane's energies unless otherwise noted.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The wave was resisted by Kas'im.... because its a wave. By its very nature, only a small part of the attack actually struck Kas'im. If Bane chose to focus that amount of power into a more direct, focused attack I'm not seeing Kolar blocking it.

Perhaps, but there again, it was a power displayed on a potent Force nexus. I see no reason to believe Bane could harness such energy on neutral terrain.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing suggesting the Brotherhood was especially shitty in terms of actual combat. Bane thinks that they'd lost their way, not that they flat-out suck. One only has to look at Kaox Krul to see that the Brotherhood has some premier combatants, not to mention Kopecz who killed an entire squad of the Republic finest before they could fire more than once.

Bane's musings would appear more persuasive than baseless appeals to the reverse. That Kaox Krul managed to kill an entire squad of what appear to be Forceless mooks is not inherently impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
On top of Bane lightning and with as you say roughly the same skill level theres no advantage Agen has over Bane that enables him to win.

I meant if we assume AOTC Agen's skill level is "roughly the same" to his ROTS incarnation. I don't believe POD!Bane is as skilled as Agen Kolar.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jinn may be technically skilled, in Ataru I believe, but by his own admission he was old and outside his prime. Besides which is that he has no force feats that stand out as anything special. Or even mediocre if I think about it.

Did he even do anything with the Force in that movie? mmm

Very few Force feats indeed.

@Master Han:

To be exact it wasn't simply "Jar'Kai" that Bane was so helpless against, it was Kas'im's specific command of Jar'Kai, with which he had mastered all seven forms to what is described as an extraordinarily high level, that he had such difficulty with.

I don't believe there's anybody else in canon, let alone this thread, let alone Dooku that can be said to possess that same advantage over him; I don't believe Dooku can even be said to be particularly proficient with the style.

I'd also be interested to hear why you think that Dooku is comparably skilled to someone who literally mastered every form and style of lightsaber combat in a matter of years and then spent decades perfecting them to an extremely high level.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane may very well be more powerful, but as you yourself often proclaim, power is not an inherently decisive advantage in the context of a duel.

Agen is armed with his lightsaber, which should be adequate to contain and deflect Bane's energies unless otherwise noted.

Bane was defeating Kas'im through simply being more powerful. The same applies to Agen, who I don't see as being Kas'im's superior in skill or power.

Lightsabers can be overwhelmed by Force Lightning, as well you know. Agen isn't powerful enough to block Bane's lightning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps, but there again, it was a power displayed on a potent Force nexus. I see no reason to believe Bane could harness such energy on neutral terrain.

True, although theres no actual mention of him being boosted by Lehon's power to my knowledge. Besides which is that Kas'im would have been boosted by the same power if Bane was.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane's musings would appear more persuasive than baseless appeals to the reverse. That Kaox Krul managed to kill an entire squad of what appear to be Forceless mooks is not inherently impressive.

Bane doesn't muse that Kaan's order is crap, just that the whole idea isn't true to the dark side. And no, Kaox Krul levitated over a lake while duelling for an hour and his fight burned up a forest. Kopecz killed "forceless mooks" which is laughable considering the level of the Republic's elite we see in Swtor, capable of treating Sith warriors like the mooks. Whats impressive tho is how fast he slaughters them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I meant if we assume AOTC Agen's skill level is "roughly the same" to his ROTS incarnation. I don't believe POD!Bane is as skilled as Agen Kolar.

Ah.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Very few Force feats indeed.

*aggressive suggestion that Bane could own him with Force powers*

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
@Master Han:

To be exact it wasn't simply "Jar'Kai" that Bane was so helpless against, it was Kas'im's specific command of Jar'Kai, with which he had mastered all seven forms to what is described as an extraordinarily high level, that he had such difficulty with.

I don't believe there's anybody else in canon, let alone this thread, let alone Dooku that can be said to possess that same advantage over him; I don't believe Dooku can even be said to be particularly proficient with the style.


I don't understand the black and white fallacy here: Bane had absolutely no experience of jar'kai, and so logically, anyone of even moderate proficiency in the form would have an advantage over Bane, even if it's not to the same degree (read: utter pwnage) that Kas'im wielded.



Dooku is the master of makashi, and clearly has a high-level knowledge of practically every other form. Whilst there's not evidence to suggest that he is Kas'im peer in terms of breadth of knowledge, his makashi mastery has allowed him to fight Yoda for almost a minute and take on Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously, each individually considered to be among the greatest duelists in the order's history.

Furthemore, Dooku's strength in the Force is far greater than what Kas'im has demonstrated. Pure technical work isn't always enough (Anakin's easily defeating Cin Dralig), especially when your opponent is already a legend in that regard.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes. By quite a freaking lot? Its a good show of skill perhaps, but in terms of actual power and destructive ability not very impressive to my mind at all. The fact is that if Dooku was really that proficient in Force Lightning he wouldn't have required multiple blasts to keep Savage away from him. Put Bane against Savage in that fight and he'd be dead after a single blast.


Rampant speculation aside, being able to disarm three trained Force users has a helluva lot more combative applications than being able to turn people into ash. Given that even mook sith can deflect blaster bolts with their palms, blaster bolts that can vaporize large chunks of durasteel...can you really argue that penetrating three Force defenses < disintegration?



He's probably above average in ability (in a rather weak era, TBH). Obi Wan, however, is already held in high esteem by Yoda and is regarded as one of the greatest duelists in the order by AotC.

It is, again, a matter of pitting the upper 0.1% percentile against the upper 5%.




Anakin, Mace Windu, Yoda and even Dooku seem to consider him to be far more than a mook Jedi.



My point is that "I have no more left to train you" doesn't imply what you had insinuated. And Bane never surpassed Kas'im in raw technical mastery; he was only winning against the blademaster because he was intimately familiar with all of his techniques, therefore directing the fight to his superior command of the dark side.



RoDV suggests that this is how he offed Obi Wan. Which doesn't suggest that he could pull it off under any timeframe.



Most lightsaber duels only last for "seconds".



He's not his superior in terms of lightning, and "high-class" doesn't put him above a legendary combatant that can give Yoda a sort-of hard time. Remember that Dooku is Mace Windu's peer as late as Dark Rendezvous.



He's still going to be vastly outclassed in terms of technical bladework.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't understand the black and white fallacy here: Bane had absolutely no experience of jar'kai, and so logically, anyone of even moderate proficiency in the form would have an advantage over Bane, even if it's not to the same degree (read: utter pwnage) that Kas'im wielded.

It's the degree of advantage that I was addressing. Your words implied that Dooku would have the same advantage by whatever his passing knowledge of Jar'Kai is as well as other stuff that you claimed Bane would be inexperienced with, when Kas'im's advantage was so great primarily because he had such a range of high level techniques to use against Bane.



Really? I don't believe his technical expertise with Makashi has been documented to the point that you could make that claim. Certainly he was a notable individual in his era, one of the better lightsaber users and he was a master of Makashi but I don't believe the source material ever makes it clear that his technical expertise quite matches what you're describing here, whether it's best Makashi technician of his era, or the best ever, or whatever. People, and I'm not pointing fingers, seem to have a habit of identifiying PT Jedi that were good at a particular form and then labelling them the best ever or "The" master of it, they do the same thing with Obi-Wan and Soresu, but I believe it's almost entirely wishful thinking, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where you're getting a lot fo your information from.



How so?



It's his full range of abilities relevant to lightsaber combat that allowed him to do those things, and I'm not sure surviving against Yoda for a mere minute is anything to jump up and down about. It's just a minute, and I believe even with the advantage of being on a world steeped in the darkside Yoda was his clear superior so the evidence seems to point to Yoda being significantly superior.



I think that's questionable.



I disagree, Dooku is shown to use the Force offensively to greater effect but he isn't someone who's ever truly stood out in the grand scheme of things for his powers in scale, knowledge or control. At best he uses his powers effectively while lightsaber duelling and he has used it to dominate other Force Users several times, establishing that he was firmly more powerful, but he isn't among those characters we've seen that had demonstrated anything remotely remarkable, such as the Banes, the Exar Kuns, the Trayas etc.

Kas'im's ability to shield himself against an attack that would have literally liquified him otherwise is imo more impressive than anything we've ever seen from Dooku, and it's likely that he would have focused his efforts more on the kinds of abilities that would support him in saber combat as well as defending against Force powers, whereas Dooku clearly favoured using the Force offensiveyy at times, so I would have even more reaosn to believe that Kas'im's force abilities were superior as far as how they relate to lightsaber combat (he would also clearly have the natural physical advantage).



Whether you wish to call Dooku a legend or not, the evidence would suggest that Kas'im would have a massive technical advantage over Dooku and I believe the other abilities are also in his favour.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kas'im's mastery of Makashi specifically was comparable to Dooku's, it was certainly to an extremely high level at which point you would start getting diminishing returns anyway. Dooku may have a small advantage with one particular form but Kas'im will have a gigantic advantage in having mastered everything. He has a unique advantage in being able to tailor his approach to his enemy's weaknesses, whether it exploits weaknesses in his opponent's style or is something completely unfamiliar to him, his vast range of techniques would keep his opponent guessing and according to PoD stifles the effectiveness of battle precognition, and he would be able to match the best elements of each style to the specific function they work best in. Where Dooku is again perhaps slightly better with one particular style, Kas'im is the vastly more dynamic, flexible and unorthodox swordsman of the two (and it was due to these characteristics that he was able to overcome Bane anyway).

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Really? I don't believe his technical expertise with Makashi has been documented to the point that you could make that claim. Certainly he was a notable individual in his era, one of the better lightsaber users and he was a master of Makashi but I don't believe the source material ever makes it clear that his technical expertise quite matches what you're describing here, whether it's best Makashi technician of his era, or the best ever, or whatever. People, and I'm not pointing fingers, seem to have a habit of identifiying PT Jedi that were good at a particular form and then labelling them the best ever or "The" master of it, they do the same thing with Obi-Wan and Soresu, but I believe it's almost entirely wishful thinking, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where you're getting a lot fo your information from.


Er, actually I too can't quite recall where I got this idea from. All I can remember is him being described at great length as a born duelist, wherein swordsmanship, foortwork etc came to him as easy as breathing, but can't recall where thats said. RotS?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well we know Jinn was among the best; The Jedi Academy Training Manual states that Jinn is a superior duelist to Anoon Bondara, himself considered one of the best.


When was this stated?. Can you post a link or screenshot of it. Not disagreeing just want to see.

Originally posted by Master Han
He's still going to be vastly outclassed in terms of technical bladework.

I disagree, Bane's learning ability with a lightsaber is arguably the greatest we've ever seen by a long shot; he effectively mastered the defencive measures against Kas'im's entire arsenal of techniques (numbering in the millions) in a matter of months and was just as diligent and demonstratably talented in his every other study, so we have every reason to believe that he would have made similar progress in his own chosen lightsaber form. In which case I feel their technique may be on a similar level, where Bane's gargantuan advantage in Force ability would be the real deciding factor in a duel between them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was defeating Kas'im through simply being more powerful. The same applies to Agen, who I don't see as being Kas'im's superior in skill or power.

Lightsabers can be overwhelmed by Force Lightning, as well you know. Agen isn't powerful enough to block Bane's lightning.

I see no reason to believe Agen can't deflect Bane's lightning with his lightsaber when Obi-Wan successfully repulsed Dooku's attack despite being considerably weaker with respect to skill and the Force than the good Count.

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, although theres no actual mention of him being boosted by Lehon's power to my knowledge. Besides which is that Kas'im would have been boosted by the same power if Bane was.

That the feat was performed on a nexus at all is reason enough to question it as there is no indication that exploiting nexuses requires specific effort.

That Kas'im was bolstered by the nexus is uncontested, but unless they he was bolstered to a greater extent than was Bane, then he can be said to be capable of blunting Bane's TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane doesn't muse that Kaan's order is crap, just that the whole idea isn't true to the dark side. And no, Kaox Krul levitated over a lake while duelling for an hour and his fight burned up a forest. Kopecz killed "forceless mooks" which is laughable considering the level of the Republic's elite we see in Swtor, capable of treating Sith warriors like the mooks. Whats impressive tho is how fast he slaughters them.

I would need to see details of Kaox Krul's accomplishments from a canonical source.

Not to mention that it's only laughable if the Sith warriors the Republic's elite takes down are of respectable caliber. To say nothing of the 2,000 years that separates SWTOR from the Brotherhood.

Originally posted by Nephthys
*aggressive suggestion that Bane could own him with Force powers*

Perhaps, but currently baseless.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
When was this stated?. Can you post a link or screenshot of it. Not disagreeing just want to see.

Sure.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/AnoonBondara_zps51c0cd76.png

Originally posted by Master Han
Rampant speculation aside, being able to disarm three trained Force users has a helluva lot more combative applications than being able to turn people into ash. Given that even mook sith can deflect blaster bolts with their palms, blaster bolts that can vaporize large chunks of durasteel...can you really argue that penetrating three Force defenses < disintegration?

It isn't speculation. Savage has shown no ability to defend against Force Lightning and isn't durable enough to tank the power needed to turn a human to ash. He'd die.

What force defenses? They're nightsisters, how do you know they have any defense against force lightning? Or can use force shields. Neither technique is mentioned in Mother Talzin's writings in the Book of Sith. And still, yes it is above that. Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to charr the flesh or disintegrate a body to ash. Thats a level of focused destructive power that is beyond him.

Also blast bolts can't vaporize durasteel, get outta here!

Originally posted by Master Han
He's probably above average in ability (in a rather weak era, TBH). Obi Wan, however, is already held in high esteem by Yoda and is regarded as one of the greatest duelists in the order by AotC.

It is, again, a matter of pitting the upper 0.1% percentile against the upper 5%.

Proof that Obi-Wan is one of the orders best duelists in AotC? He's an above average/high-level Jedi Master at best. He hasn't shown any particular strength with the Force at all at that point, nor done anything impressive in terms of dueling.

AotC Obi-Wan is not in the upper 0.1%.

As you say, Qordis is an average to above average Sith Lord, while AotC Obi-Wan is an above average to high Jedi Master. He isn't "far" above him.


Originally posted by Master Han
Anakin, Mace Windu, Yoda and even Dooku seem to consider him to be far more than a mook Jedi.

Don't care. Give me feats that show he is anything more than a talented Jedi Master.

Plus those guys only like him because of Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Master Han
My point is that "I have no more left to train you" doesn't imply what you had insinuated. And Bane never surpassed Kas'im in raw technical mastery; he was only winning against the blademaster because he was intimately familiar with all of his techniques, therefore directing the fight to his superior command of the dark side.

Isn't being intimately familiar with his techniques a form of technical mastery? Technically? Besides, at the start Bane notes that Kas'im had held back his true ability:

'Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions.

Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.'

The thing you're thinking of is:

'The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.'

Which again, only demonstrates a huge grasp of technical mastery on Bane's part.

Originally posted by Master Han
RoDV suggests that this is how he offed Obi Wan. Which doesn't suggest that he could pull it off under any timeframe.

And RotS suggests that Obi-Wan is too fast for Dooku to blitz. Obi-Wan had no problems with Greivous' speed, which he seems to regard as faster than Dooku's.

Originally posted by Master Han
Most lightsaber duels only last for "seconds".

So you don't think Dooku would stomp Bane? Thats what I thought you were implying after all.

Originally posted by Master Han
He's not his superior in terms of lightning, and "high-class" doesn't put him above a legendary combatant that can give Yoda a sort-of hard time. Remember that Dooku is Mace Windu's peer as late as Dark Rendezvous.

He is way the **** superior in lightning. Dooku's lightning is pussy-level bro.

Originally posted by Master Han
He's still going to be vastly outclassed in terms of technical bladework.

I doubt it. Neb's posts may seem to be ridiculous, but he is right about Bane's lightsaber mastery and learning rate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Regardless, the evidence suggests that Dooku already has a massive edge over the Bane from Path of Destruction in technical skill,

See last post.



Bane is certainly familiar with Makashi, and this unknown and likely imaginary skill in Jar'Kai (that you agree Dooku would not realistically be using in this engagement) certainly on paper will not have the same debilitating effect that Kas'im's comprehensive mastery did.



???



Which is extremely vague and ambiguous and it's a bit of a stretch for you to try and quantify his technical precision in Makashi directly from those quotes. His ability as a duelist is not based solely on his technique, and being one of "the greatest" could mean anything from one of the greatest 100 Jedi in its history to one the greatest thousand Jedi in its history, as it's an entirely relative term. I'ts completely unquantifiable.



It isn't a requirement at all that the master train their padawan in their chosen form directly, that's what the lightsaber instructors are for and we see numerous cases where this doesn't happen.



Well maybe your view of "high-level knowledge" differs from mine but I personally wouldn't use such strong wording.



Not necessarily as there are multiple instructors and he could have simply been of the more specialized variety. In the RotS novelisation when talking about Grievous, Mace Windu casually remarks that he had been trained by Dooku and that Obi-Wan should expect him to be trained in Makashi (leaving it at that), for what it's worth.



Well you're again just stating things that this forum likes to consider as facts. Nobody has ever adequately sourced the statement that it was the golden age of lightsaber dueling (which I believe originated as "the golden age of the Jedi" which GL states in the commentary for TPM), and Yoda and Sidious have not been proven to be the best; in Sidious's case there are certainly numerous Sith Lords who are more powerful on paper.



Which gives you the justification to just refer to him as "The master of Soresu" with whatever implication you wish? Just say that Mace Windu considered him the finest Soresu practitioner (not necessarily technician) at the time.



lol. No.



The darkside nexus would arguably be of greater benefit to offensive use of the Force, it's Asaaj Ventress, and if you look at the passage he clearly catches her off guard and she shows no active attempt at resisting.



Obi-Wan is not really ever demonstrated to be anything beyond average as far as Force power is concerned for somebody in his position, and if you're referring to the RotS duel you could argue that he simply outmanoeuvred him rather than directly breaking through his Force defences given they were engaged in a lightsaber duel.

I'm not sure being drugged would have reduced his powers and I don't believe there was anything even slighty noteworth about those nightsisters.



Bane's best feat arguably comes from PoD bro. His role in directing the Brotherhood's storm ritual involved him absorbing, containing and redirecting a level of electricity that literally spread across the entire planet and was consuming everything in its path, which is among the finer displays of power and mastery we've come across.



As I said, questionable interpretations aside, we have every reason to believe that the BoD, from a combat standpoint, were probably the finest organisation of Sith to have ever gathered.



Vague, vague and no.



From an earlier debate:





The text indicates that he's an extremely high level master of every form, so it's very much suggested that they are comparable, especially when you take diminishing returns into account. Out of the two of them, Kas'im is the only one who is explicitly described as making a dedicated attempt to perfect his skills to the highest level even after mastering the styles in the first place, and in fact went one step further and spent more time perfecting the styles than it took him to master them. Dooku cannot be said to have been quite as dedicated, and while it is true that Kas'im would have had to divide his time between all of his forms, if you look at the time it took him to master all 7 forms for all three primary styles of lightsaber (under ten years, less time than Cin Drallig claims it takes for the average Jedi to master a single form (10 years)) it isn't at all a stretch of the imagination to say that his vastly superior natural talent made up the difference.



The forms have never been documented to have changed over that time period and had already existed for thousands of years. Even if you think they had room for improvement, it would likely have been minimal.

?v=b8-EeOnoD3Y

~7 minute mark.

Is that for the Golden Age of Duelling quote?

?v=5m2yIAxeBHA

Per Lucas, around the 5 minute mark, no Jedi fights the same and "each Jedi has a particular style."

It's likely, then, that Bane will indeed be unfamiliar with many of the prequel Jedi's combat techniques.

With this in mind, I am now convinced Agen will in all probability beat him. Congratulations, Intrepid, you've won me over.

Wait, really? All he says is its the 'heyday', without applying it to duelling or anything.

Those will just be indvidual quirks and tendencies or even little things like differences in body type and lightsaber hilt, they will still ultimately be using the core techniques of their chosen style, and it certainly wouldn't be quite the same level of unfamiliarity that Kas'im pulling out an unfamiliar form would bring.

Exactly. Extrapolating from that that Bane will face the same amount of unfamiliarity from that as an entire second lightsaber is absurd, bordering on stupid.

Lucas specifically uses the word "style" and claims that no Jedi fights the same. This is clearly a disadvantage for the limited Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wait, really? All he says is its the 'heyday', without applying it to duelling or anything.

You are, of course, at liberty to disregard the fact that the heyday, the golden age of the Jedi remark is cushioned by other remarks about "intense action scenes" and battles.

You may also disregard the fact that Qui-Gon described Maul as "well-trained in the Jedi arts" after their skirmish on Tatooine.

As for me, I'm sticking with the most reasonable interpretation: That the golden age of the Jedi would naturally reflect the height of the Jedi arts... which are apparently combat ones.

And in addition to the contextual clues, what else could Lucas have possibly been referring to with the term "golden age"? Competency? Look at the PT Jedi - don't make me laugh. Moral integrity? Again, don't make me ****ing laugh. Political power? Hardly, in comparison to the Jedi Supreme Chancellors. Being assholes? Well, you might have a point there.

You guys are reaching for the stars.

Your reply is pure brilliance.

Originally posted by Master Han
And in addition to the contextual clues, what else could Lucas have possibly been referring to with the term "golden age"? Competency? Look at the PT Jedi - don't make me laugh. Moral integrity? Again, don't make me ****ing laugh. Political power? Hardly, in comparison to the Jedi Supreme Chancellors. Being assholes? Well, you might have a point there.

It's an old tactic liberally utilized by a losing side around and it's only effective so long as you allow them to use it unanswered.

My recommendation, if you have the energy? Begin tearing apart all the accolades and feats surrounding Bane and Kas'im. Conveyed via text, they are at an inherent disadvantage compared to the likes of Maul, Agen Kolar, Obi-Wan, etc. I would recommend labeling them as "ambiguous," "vague," "unsubstantiated," and "hyperbolic."

Either way, they lose.

Originally posted by Master Han
And in addition to the contextual clues, what else could Lucas have possibly been referring to with the term "golden age"? Competency? Look at the PT Jedi - don't make me laugh. Moral integrity? Again, don't make me ****ing laugh. Political power? Hardly, in comparison to the Jedi Supreme Chancellors. Being assholes? Well, you might have a point there.

He's talking about it in comparison to what we see before in the OT, when the Order is extinguished, as in now the Jedi are at the height of their success and there a bunch of them fighting at once. When he elaborates all he talks about is them fighting in large groups.

He makes no mention to skill or combat ability. And he doesn't say golden age as far as I heard.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's talking about it in comparison to what we see before in the OT

"golden age" and "prime" do not merely extend to "not as crappy as when there were two known, aging Jedi left".



LOL, wut? He's clearly referencing fight choreography and action sequences, not how many Jedi there were, a definition of "prime" that has no relevance to the subject matter, ie., their demonstrated skill in 1 vs. 1, or 2 vs. 1 lightsaber duels.

I'd recommend turning up your speakers, Neph. He says, "the heyday, the golden age of the Jedi."

Per the relevant definition of such terms and idioms, it is logical to conclude that this would be the time in which the "Jedi arts" are at their peak.

My mistake. The musics too loud and I thought he said it was the 'heyday of the old age of the republic'.

Originally posted by Master Han
"golden age" and "prime" do not merely extend to "not as crappy as when there were two known, aging Jedi left".



LOL, wut? He's clearly referencing fight choreography and action sequences, not how many Jedi there were, a definition of "prime" that has no relevance to the subject matter, ie., their demonstrated skill in 1 vs. 1, or 2 vs. 1 lightsaber duels.

Regardless, thats whats he's actually talking about. He mentions lots of jedi fighting in a group which is something we've never seen before since usually its just a few fighting at any time.

Thats because there is no relevance to the subject matter you dork! He's not referring to 1 on 1 fights, he's talking about multiple jedi fighting together in large-scale combat. He specifically contrasts what hes talking about to one on one fights!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats because there is no relevance to the subject matter you dork! He's not referring to 1 on 1 fights, he's talking about multiple jedi fighting together in large-scale combat.

Wha-what the f*ck are you talking about?

Why don't you turn your speakers up some more, and re-watch the video?

*cough*

JediartsJediartsJediartsJediartsJediartsJediarts

Temp, on a feat-by-feat basis, no power scaling (but you can ignore the G-Canon limitations and just take whatever from the EU), who do you think wins between PoD Bane and Dooku?

Jokes?

Originally posted by Master Han
Wha-what the f*ck are you talking about?

Why don't you turn your speakers up some more, and re-watch the video?

What the f*ck are you talking about?

I'm watching the 7 minute mark when he says the quote and all he's mentioning is large battles. If you're referring to another part of the video, y'all need to point it out to me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Jokes?

WHAT????

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Temp, on a feat-by-feat basis, no power scaling (but you can ignore the G-Canon limitations and just take whatever from the EU), who do you think wins between PoD Bane and Dooku?

Dooku.

Originally posted by ares834


You really think Dooku has the better feats?

As of PoD, yeah.

Yup.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
With this in mind, I am now convinced Agen will in all probability beat him. Congratulations, Intrepid, you've won me over.
I must have missed Anakin. He should beat Bane as well.

Originally posted by ares834
As of PoD, yeah.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup.

Like? I acknowledge that he does well in combat against other Force users in his era and is firmly in the big 4 but that's literally all he's ever done; his physical, TK and lightning feats are all thoroughly outclassed and all attempts at establishing the PT Jedi as better than orders from other eras have failed spectacularly.

Claiming that Dooku has better feats than PoD Bane is a completely unjustifiable position.

Not really. What about:

mfIEdlba5ZQ

or:

_1ieRQ-4BB4

(right at the start)

lol

Dooku's faster (he has generated eight afterimages, drawn his blade too fast to be seen, fought faster than Kenobi who can run in blurs). I don't even remember any speed feats by Bane at this point.

Dooku's vastly more skilled. He's beaten Grievous, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ventress. Bane only beat Sirak.

Dooku's far more powerful. He's collapsed small bridges the size of starfighters, levitated multiple obelisk stones and casually choked/disarmed accomplished Force users such as Ventress/Obi-Wan. Bane crushed a featless Qordis telekinetically.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
he has generated eight afterimages, drawn his blade too fast to be seen,


Where's that from Intrepid?

Drawing his blade too fast to be seen:

A twitch of the Force brought his lightsaber to his hand with invisible speed, its brilliant scarlet blade angled downward at his side.

-Revenge of the Sith

Generating afterimages:

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Count%20Dooku/dookugeneratingafterimages_zps99a01645.png

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. What about:

mfIEdlba5ZQ

or:

_1ieRQ-4BB4

(right at the start)

Probably his more impressive TK showings but it still doesn't remotely compare to Bane's force wave and it's still fundamentally street level in scale.

For the record a good padawan would warn me beforehand via PM that they were going to post that. Not cool man.

Bane's feat occured on a very powerful nexus.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Drawing his blade too fast to be seen:

A twitch of the Force brought his lightsaber to his hand with invisible speed, its brilliant scarlet blade angled downward at his side.

-Revenge of the Sith

Quite obvious hyperbole aside, it sounds like he just telekinetically drew it.



What is clearly visual hyperbole and not an actual accurate image?

Even if you assumed it was, it still wouldn't compare to Bane's entire body being practically invisible to the eyes of trained Force Users.

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Probably his more impressive TK showings but it still doesn't remotely compare to Bane's force wave and it's still fundamentally street level in scale.

For the record a good padawan would warn me beforehand via PM that they were going to post that. Not cool man.

Bane's Force Wave was charged though. He can't throw that out whenever.

I'm not your padawan. When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the Master.

lol @ lowballing Dooku's feats as ''obvious hyperbole''.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bane's feat occured on a very powerful nexus.

Makes no difference. We compare characters largely by what they have demonstrated, and it doesn't mean that a character that has demonstrated greater feats is definitely the greater of the two, but it does make him more proven and likely superior. Given that Force Nexus are hardly a rare commodity and that these characters operate on them frequently, they have every opportunity to do the same and their lack of such showings makes them comparatively unproven.

Not really. You can't say that Bane can unleash a wave powerful enough to collapse a temple when he's never done it without amplifications.

On neutral ground, Dooku edges it in telekinetic display.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane's Force Wave was charged though. He can't throw that out whenever.

I'm not your padawan. When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the Master.

See my response to Intrepid. These characters have ample opportunity to charge their attacks in the majority of the scenarios they find themselves in (how often do we see a large monologue or conversation preceed a combat engagement?) and we can only assume they do if it's such an advantage. The fact remains that in all of the material Dooku's been featured in, whether he's on a nexus or whether he has the opportunity to prepare his attacks, he never demonstrates anything remotely comparable.

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Like? I acknowledge that he does well in combat against other Force users in his era and is firmly in the big 4 but that's literally all he's ever done;

Even ignoring your incorrect downplaying of Dooku's non-scaled feats, this alone puts him far higher than you could possibly imagine.



Other than three explicit authorial fiats?

lol

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. You can't say that Bane can unleash a wave powerful enough to collapse a temple when he's never done it without amplifications.

On neutral ground, Dooku edges it in telekinetic display.

Not at the time perhaps (we can't say for certain that destroying the temple was the absolutely limits of the power he generated, it simply happened) and he continues improving throughout the book.

And it's more a case of Dooku not being able to do the same thing under similar conditions. Seeing as virtually every location is a nexus these days (we have seen Dooku at such locations numerous times) it remains a simple matter of what you might call feat wars in which case Bane edges it out easily.

But he doesn't edge it out easily. Dooku's got an array of vastly superior feats on neutral ground. Bane has no feats on neutral ground even close.

Originally posted by Master Han
Even ignoring your incorrect downplaying of Dooku's non-scaled feats, this alone puts him far higher than you could possibly imagine.

In comparison to the likes of Bane who has far progressed beyond the upper echelons of his era, hardly. It's an entirely ordinary hierarchical status. Bane would more appropriately be a contender for the big 4 of all time.



Please. This thead alone is a great example of just how unjustifiable a position it is. You are treating a very loose interpretation as a fact. I would submit that the BoD is likely far superior to the PT Jedi Order from a combat standpoint.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But he doesn't edge it out easily. Dooku's got an array of vastly superior feats on neutral ground. Bane has no feats on neutral ground even close.

His best feat in PoD was performed at Ruusan which if anything would have had a stronger lightside presence, and it's in an entirely different universe to anything we've seen from Dooku.

What feat on Ruusan?

Han:

Originally posted by Nephthys
What the f*ck are you talking about?

I'm watching the 7 minute mark when he says the quote and all he's mentioning is large battles. If you're referring to another part of the video, y'all need to point it out to me.

I still have no idea what you and Tempest are talking about here.

Per TPM, "Jedi arts" is another term for lightsaber combat. Per Lucas, the PT is the "heyday" and "golden age of Jedi."

Naturally, it would follow that the Jedi arts must therefore be at their peak.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I must have missed Anakin. He should beat Bane as well.

mmm

Indeed?

The storm ritual that the BoD used on Ruusan. The other Sith Lords provided the power to Bane but it came in the form of Force lightning so he had to absorb the energy, contain it for a large duration of time, and then redirected it across the planet and it was such a magnitude that it was consuming everything in its path and would have destroyed the planet if they didn't abandon it halfway through.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Per TPM, "Jedi arts" is another term for lightsaber combat. Per Lucas, the PT is the "heyday" and "golden age of Jedi."

Naturally, it would follow that the Jedi arts must therefore be at their peak.


Where does he say 'jedi arts'?


For the record, I find it hard to believe the PT Jedi are the best of the best. They'd just gotten out of a thousand years of peace and stagnation, their primary opponents are (literally) retarded battledroids and the Force is slanted out of their favor. The reason Dooku is such a dominant combatant is because so few Jedi use Makashi, since Jedi so rarely have to actually fight lightsaber-wielding opponents anymore.

The idea that the PT-era is the best at dueling is simply a confusing concept to grasp and is poorly supported. Especially when other era's have the Jedi fighting millions of saber-wielding Sith.

Anakin was, as per various sources and Dooku's own musings, able to challenge Dooku to an extent, and he's powerful enough to move huge boulders and swing his lightsaber fast enough to almost encase himself in its blurring light. He should beat Bane.

When Qui-Gon reports to the Jedi Council in TPM, he claims Maul is "well trained in the Jedi arts."

And I know you don't like it, but that's straight from Lucas. And you can justify it that they honed their skills over a thousand uninterrupted years. But even if you can't justify it, it's still there.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
When Qui-Gon reports to the Jedi Council in TPM, he claims Maul is "well trained in the Jedi arts."

And I know you don't like it, but that's straight from Lucas. And you can justify it that they honed their skills over a thousand uninterrupted years. But even if you can't justify it, it's still there.

Whats the relevance of that?

No it isn't. You're poorly-thought out interpretation of his words is there, but its no more damning my MY poorly-thought out interpretation.

The fact that the golden age of the Jedi would naturally reflect the height of their techniques and disciplines.

It's not a poorly thought-out interpretation at all. It's an edict straight from Lucas.

You can piss and moan all you like, but there it is. We can just agree to disagree, I'm not interested in you bemoaning the fact no one in heights of LucasArts power gives a shit about Bane and SWTOR.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact that the golden age of the Jedi would naturally reflect the height of their techniques and disciplines.

It's not a poorly thought-out interpretation at all. It's an edict straight from Lucas.

You can piss and moan all you like, but there it is. We can just agree to disagree, I'm not interested in you bemoaning the fact no one in heights of LucasArts power gives a shit about Bane and SWTOR.

No, whats its relevance to Lucas' quote? You keep pointing out something to do with Jedi arts when Lucas never says that as far as I can tell. What he says is:

'This is the heyday, the golden age, of Jedi. You see Jedi in large battlescenes, you know, battling as a large group and before- we've never seen that before, its always just been a couple of Jedi fighting each other.'

That's his entire speech, copied by myself after re-watching it twice and then copied as he's saying it. Nowhere does he say anything about dueling, or about individual combat. He's just talking about how this is the Jedi Order back when there were loads of them fighting together.


I'm not pissing and moaning, I'm bringing up reasons why its illogical for the PT Jedi to be stellar duelists above every other era. In particular I think the fact that Makashi is so underused because of the absence of lightsaber warfare is damning. It makes no sense for the era to be so highly-advanced in lightsaber combat when the Form specilised for lightsaber combat is neglected..... because theres no lightsaber combat anymore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and the Force is slanted out of their favor.

This. I find it interesting that the few mentions in PoD of the darkside being weaker because of it being spread too thin among large numbers lead people to refer to the BoD as weaklings and pussies and that they suck etc.. yet those arguments seem to conveniently disappear when it's a matter of the PT Jedi's ability to use the Force being diminished.

I'm perfectly happy submitting that we don't really understand exactly how the larger, cosmic battle between the dark and the light impacts the power individual Jedi and Sith can directly access in combat, that there's no indication given that it does, and leaving it at that. Or, we all agree that they both suck.



Nicely put.

Furthermore, theres some evidence that Kaan's Sith Order possessed the power of Force Storm, Palpatines variant. Again indicating that they're no weaklings.