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- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-pannel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why?

I think ic rules SHOULD cover this.

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easily beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-panel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why?



How the character behaves under circumstances similar to the proposed forum match is part of logic as well, Sam.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
How the character behaves under circumstances similar to the proposed forum match is part of logic as well, Sam. I agree, but I'm not talking about CIS but characters abilities overall. Logic dictates Supes could do it but we've never actually seen it. So is that a valid argument to use in a CIS free vs fight?

Originally posted by SamZED
I agree, but I'm not talking about CIS but characters abilities overall. Logic dictates Supes could do it but we've never actually seen it. So is that a valid argument to use in a CIS free vs fight?




CIS-free? Rough translation "fight is dictated by theoretical ability and no character considerations whatsoever"?

For the most part I would agree.


The one caveat that must be included, however, is that some techniques require skills developed by training and practice. I would not expect Superman to be as effective in superspeed techniques as Flash, for instance, or even Wonder Woman.

Actually, I remember one comic, Jesse Quick + Wonder Woman, where Jesse herself made that comment about Wonder Woman.
Diana's quarry (Lady Savitar) got away precisely because Diana was not used to dealing with the strange physics the Flashes deal with everyday.
Diana was a quick study, and eventually the JQ/WW team won, or at least thwarted Lady Savitar's plan in the end, but it took some adjustment.
There's a learning curve associated with some of these proposals that most debating fans don't consider.

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-pannel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why? If that one striked out feat is causing you such problems, then you should be aware that Superman performed that feat under a blue sun that acts as a super-amp for him.

And when we actually see Superman instantly knocking out a Hulk-class foe with thousands of punches before that Hulk-class foe can even move an inch, then it's worthy of discussion. Until then, the notion is as worthless as arguing Thor/Surfer would send Mjolnir/surfboard to instantly knock out Hulk with thousands of homed-in hits before Hulk can even move an inch.

There's no reason why fights wouldn't go like that in a cis-free environment.

But that's also part of the reason why most fights are not set in a cis-free environment. It would be too much like CBR.

Originally posted by ODG
Hulk can't lose.

The door's right there.

CIS free, of course

only thing is we have seen superman plenty of times speedblitzing and using his speed in a fight.
but of course superman is not thor , therefor non of his feats counts no matter how many times he will repeat same feat over and over.
but thor 200 years ago using mjolnir to suck someones soul 1 singular time will be always part of his skill set.

Originally posted by wolverinos
only thing is we have seen superman plenty of times speedblitzing and using his speed in a fight.
but of course superman is not thor , therefor non of his feats counts no matter how many times he will repeat same feat over and over.
but thor 200 years ago using mjolnir to suck someones soul 1 singular time will be always part of his skill set.

Originally posted by curryman
There's no reason why fights wouldn't go like that in a cis-free environment.

But that's also part of the reason why most fights are not set in a cis-free environment. It would be too much like CBR.



The door's right there. You misunderstand what CIS-free means. -Pr- and Badabing have reinforced many times over the years that CIS-off isn't a made-up forum avatar who can perform feats that have never actually been performed on-panel -- simply because you theorize the character is capable.

I can only hope for your sake that this misunderstanding is responsible for your warped approach; which says nothing of your attitude here. Originally posted by wolverinos
only thing is we have seen superman plenty of times speedblitzing and using his speed in a fight.
but of course superman is not thor , therefor non of his feats counts no matter how many times he will repeat same feat over and over.
but thor 200 years ago using mjolnir to suck someones soul 1 singular time will be always part of his skill set. You might want to focus your scattered thoughts into a more coherent response. Overcoming your irrational attitude towards Thor might help in that.

Meh, clearly Hulk posesses quite dynamic speed, like Lobo got dynamic strength. He can struggle with street level scum in this department, while heralds with super-duper speed fail to gain any clear advantage the same way.

In short I don`t see supes taking down Hulkie Boy in a fraction of a second this way.

Originally posted by ODG
You misunderstand what CIS-free means. -Pr- and Badabing have reinforced many times over the years that CIS-off isn't a made-up forum avatar who can perform feats that have never actually been performed on-panel -- simply because you theorize the character is capable.
Sam's example isn't a made up feat.

Superman's not mentally retarded, and he can move girders and weld stuff at a gazillion times the speed of comics. Naturally he should be able to punch at that same speed.

That's not theorycraft with a powerset.

I see a distinction between CIS-free and whatever you want to call powerset mode.


Originally posted by ODG
I can only hope for your sake that this misunderstanding is responsible for your warped approach; which says nothing of your attitude here. You might want to focus your scattered thoughts into a more coherent response. Overcoming your irrational attitude towards Thor might help in that.
I'm glad to see your edited your post to make it a bit angrier.

Time to lay off the projection.

I don't see what Thor has to do with this, nor do I see where you get the idea that I have an irrational attitude towards Thor. Is that attitude for or against him?

Is this because I ridiculed your "Hulk can never lose" post?

Originally posted by ODG
You might want to focus your scattered thoughts into a more coherent response. Overcoming your irrational attitude towards Thor might help in that.

if something i said was wrong, please enlighten me.
if not then find better things to do with your time.

You answered your own question with your mock debate, sam.

Galactus never beat the shit out of heralds physically, i guess that means he cannot do that?
you see sometimes when we know for a fact someone is capable of doing something its just dumb to ask for scans showing him does that.
spider man never takes a dump in comics, would you ask for scans proving he can take a shit?

Would... would it be weird if provided such scans...?

That... is neither here not there wolverinos

@SamZED not in the slightest.
this is the internet

Originally posted by wolverinos
only thing is we have seen superman plenty of times speedblitzing and using his speed in a fight.
but of course superman is not thor , therefor non of his feats counts no matter how many times he will repeat same feat over and over.
but thor 200 years ago using mjolnir to suck someones soul 1 singular time will be always part of his skill set.

LOL!! You must have a secret crush on Thor.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Meh, clearly Hulk posesses quite dynamic speed, like Lobo got dynamic strength. He can struggle with street level scum in this department, while heralds with super-duper speed fail to gain any clear advantage the same way.

In short I don`t see supes taking down Hulkie Boy in a fraction of a second this way.

Neither do I, but there IS a contigent here who took often resorts to Superman "stunning" and opponent and then "speed blitzing" them, and the fight is supposedly over. We see it day in and day out.

Originally posted by ODG
You misunderstand what CIS-free means. -Pr- and Badabing have reinforced many times over the years that CIS-off isn't a made-up forum avatar who can perform feats that have never actually been performed on-panel -- simply because you theorize the character is capable.

I can only hope for your sake that this misunderstanding is responsible for your warped approach; which says nothing of your attitude here. You might want to focus your scattered thoughts into a more coherent response. Overcoming your irrational attitude towards Thor might help in that.

I disagree on one thing- The idea of Superman punching in such a fashion is no more theoretical than me saying if I push you off a bridge, you will fall in the water. He can do it whether it has actually been shown on panel or not.

Originally posted by curryman
Sam's example isn't a made up feat.

Superman's not mentally retarded, and he can move girders and weld stuff at a gazillion times the speed of comics. Naturally he should be able to punch at that same speed.

That's not theorycraft with a powerset.

I see a distinction between CIS-free and whatever you want to call powerset mode.



I'm glad to see your edited your post to make it a bit angrier.

Time to lay off the projection.

I don't see what Thor has to do with this, nor do I see where you get the idea that I have an irrational attitude towards Thor. Is that attitude for or against him?

Is this because I ridiculed your "Hulk can never lose" post?

Dude, his that last statement was in response to wolverinos' nonsense!

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
LOL!! You must have a secret crush on Thor.

reported for harassment

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I disagree on one thing- The idea of Superman punching in such a fashion is no more theoretical than me saying if I push you off a bridge, you will fall in the water. He can do it whether it has actually been shown on panel or not.

only thing is, superman did it more than once, if you would actually read DC comics and not repeat after everybody like a parrot, you would see superman used combat speed blitzing several good times.

Originally posted by wolverinos
reported for harassment

You should have reported yourself for trying to turn this post into a Thor bash fest. How about you respond to the topic so you can stop getting laughed at?

Originally posted by wolverinos
only thing is, superman did it more than once, if you would actually read DC comics and not repeat after everybody like a parrot, you would see superman used combat speed blitzing several good times.

Shut up. No one was talking to you and don't tell me I need to read D.C. comics. To be more clear, f*#k D.C. Comics. Now go report youself for troll walking.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
You should have reported yourself for trying to turn this post into a Thor bash fest. How about you respond to the topic so you can stop getting laughed at?

how about you put on your glasses and see my respond to the topic.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Shut up. No one was talking to you and don't tell me I need to read D.C. comics. To be more clear, f*#k D.C. Comics. Now go report youself for troll walking.

no one was talking to you either, however it did not stop you from talking to me, if you are stating dumb thigs without any knowledge of what the hell you are talking about, i am going to slap you for that and show you the stupidity in your ways.

you should go to a shrink to look up closer on your mental disorders, i seriously believe a superman drawing stole your sister or something (because a girlfriend you clearly would never have).

Originally posted by wolverinos
no one was talking to you either, however it did not stop you from talking to me, if you are stating dumb thigs without any knowledge of what the hell you are talking about, i am going to slap you for that and show you the stupidity in your ways.

you should go to a shrink to look up closer on your mental disorders, i seriously believe a superman drawing stole your sister or something (because a girlfriend you clearly would never have).

"A girlfriend?" How old are you, 14 at the most? I'm a grown man, kind of like the one that abandon you at an early age and f*&ked you head up for life. You won't be slapping anything except your own baby monkey. I spoke to the topic, you are the one that tried to get in a few licks on Thor like the scandalous brawd you are. When you do weak stuff like that, you are going to get called on it. Don't go crying to the mods, just tighten you game up a bit and speak to the topic, which you have yet to do.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
"A girlfriend?" How old are you, 14 at the most? I'm a grown man, kind of like the one that abandon you at an early age and f*&ked you head up for life. You won't be slapping anything except your own baby monkey. I spoke to the topic, you are the one that tried to get in a few licks on Thor like the scandalous brawd you are. When you do weak stuff like that, you are going to get called on it. Don't go crying to the mods, just tighten you game up a bit and speak to the topic, which you have yet to do.

a grown man that sits here and trading trash talk with teenagers on comic book forums?
you are seriously f**ked in the head.
thats funny because i am actually slapping you around and shoving your nose into the facts, revealing your ignorance about comics and about life.

dude... i repeat... you have mental issues go sort your problems and fast, if as a grown up thats what you do..... get a f**kin job loser.

anyway as a Hulk defender i always receive illogical issues from Superman Offenders who force my hand into the same boat...i tried my darndest but my logic means nothing to guys who literally connect Comics with Science...we know it can never be 100% Consistant all the time because Writers&Artists constantly change...DC vs Marvel? who is more Consistant?

Welp. This thread is going exactly as expected.

Sam, I expect your flaw was to create an example involving Kal and Hulk. Kept in the abstract, there might have actually been decent discussion.

Originally posted by curryman
Sam's example isn't a made up feat.

Superman's not mentally retarded, and he can move girders and weld stuff at a gazillion times the speed of comics. Naturally he should be able to punch at that same speed.

That's not theorycraft with a powerset.

I see a distinction between CIS-free and whatever you want to call powerset mode. If that scene causes you so much trouble, then you shoud note that he accomplished that while being amped under a blue sun. Originally posted by curryman
I'm glad to see your edited your post to make it a bit angrier.

Time to lay off the projection.

I don't see what Thor has to do with this, nor do I see where you get the idea that I have an irrational attitude towards Thor. Is that attitude for or against him?

Is this because I ridiculed your "Hulk can never lose" post? My dismissive thoughts towards your pointless "quote" of me isn't anger or projection. Next time someone throws your own comment back in your face, don't blame him.

And the mention of Thor has little to do with you, as I was responding to wolverinos, not you. Reread it.

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-pannel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why? Only reason he doesn't do it is plot.

Originally posted by wolverinos
if something i said was wrong, please enlighten me. I already did. Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I disagree on one thing- The idea of Superman punching in such a fashion is no more theoretical than me saying if I push you off a bridge, you will fall in the water. He can do it whether it has actually been shown on panel or not. The idea that Superman can instantly defeat a Hulk-level foe with thousands of punches within a second is theoretical. Because it's never happened before. I can assume Thor can also command Mjolnir to blitz Hulk thousands of times at ftl speeds also to instantly defeat him. But he's never actually done it, so who cares? Hell, why can't Thor quickly summon galaxy-rending mystic whirlwinds too based on him once containing a 1/5th universe destroying blast once with those whirlwinds? Because he's never actually done that, so who cares?

Why should I care about what Superman has never done before on-panel? When there is a wealth of feats he's actually performed and a wealth of fights that he's fought? We are talking about thousands of issues of published fiction to draw from and there seems to be this attitude that this somehow isn't enough.

What I have seen is dozens of instances where Superman rushes an opponent with a flurry of punches. And rarely, if ever, do I see it result in more than a staggering of the Hulk-class foe. And there have been times where it kinda gets no-sold. That suggests something. And while that "something" may not align with preconceived notions, it's not like it's based on nothing.

It's based on comics.

There is a difference between can a character do something vs. will they do it if they can.

We all know Superman can throw thousands of punches in a second at the very least.

Originally posted by ODG
I already did. The idea that Superman can instantly defeat a Hulk-level foe with thousands of punches within a second is theoretical. Because it's never happened before. I can assume Thor can also command Mjolnir to blitz Hulk thousands of times at ftl speeds also to instantly defeat him. But he's never actually done it, so who cares? Hell, why can't Thor quickly summon galaxy-rending mystic whirlwinds too based on him once containing a 1/5th universe destroying blast once with those whirlwinds? Because he's never actually done that, so who cares?

Why should I care about what Superman has never done before on-panel? When there is a wealth of feats he's actually performed and a wealth of fights that he's fought? We are talking about thousands of issues of published fiction to draw from and there seems to be this attitude that this somehow isn't enough.

What I have seen is dozens of instances where Superman rushes an opponent with a flurry of punches. And rarely, if ever, do I see it result in more than a staggering of the Hulk-class foe. And there have been times where it kinda gets no-sold. That suggests something. And while that "something" may not align with preconceived notions, it's not like it's based on nothing.

It's based on comics.

In reality Superman can't hit Hulk with thousands of punches in one second to ko him. This is because Hulk will most likely get sent flying from a punch hard enough to rock him. But if Hulk was glued to an adamantium wall then Superman could do it. Superman has the speed and the power to do such things.
But can Thor do something vs. will he do it is two different things.
It takes logic and common sense to know whether someone can do something based off their power set and what they have done in comics. It takes reading comics and learning the character to know would they choose or be able to think of such things to do.

The question should be "in a forum fight should there be an argument on Superman blitzing Hulk a thousand times before he can react, or Surfer opening a Black Hole in Superman head or turning his costume to kryptonite or trapping him inside his board...or should we debate on Thor creating a million tornados with the power of a thousand winds against Superman while raining down magical lightning while at the same time having Mjlonir speed blitzing him left and right.

None of these showings have been displayed in a comics but both Thor and Surfer are capable of this.

Originally posted by ODG
You misunderstand what CIS-free means. -Pr- and Badabing have reinforced many times over the years that CIS-off isn't a made-up forum avatar who can perform feats that have never actually been performed on-panel -- simply because you theorize the character is capable.

I can only hope for your sake that this misunderstanding is responsible for your warped approach; which says nothing of your attitude here. You might want to focus your scattered thoughts into a more coherent response. Overcoming your irrational attitude towards Thor might help in that. At the same time it doesn't mean that like an idiot characters with speed are going to stand and take hits from people who are clearly infinitely slower than them either which is what a lot of debaters seem to think speedsters would do. Regardless eventually they will start to utilize more and more force as they feel out how their opponents will handle it. In the case of Superman vs. Hulk CIS off Hulk should never hit a light speed character with the reactions to match... He's really great in a stand up fight but asking him to hit someone who can keep up with the Flash's attosecond perceptions and speed is just something that should be off the table just as 99% of all comic book fights where any common mook lands a shot that effects a nigh invulnerable character or a character they just outright shouldn't land a shot on happens.

Who kept up with Flash Attosecond? Scans?

Originally posted by ODG
If that scene causes you so much trouble, then you shoud note that he accomplished that while being amped under a blue sun. My dismissive thoughts towards your pointless "quote" of me isn't anger or projection. Next time someone throws your own comment back in your face, don't blame him.

And the mention of Thor has little to do with you, as I was responding to wolverinos, not you. Reread it.

Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not.

Originally posted by ODG
If that scene causes you so much trouble, then you shoud note that he accomplished that while being amped under a blue sun. My dismissive thoughts towards your pointless "quote" of me isn't anger or projection. Next time someone throws your own comment back in your face, don't blame him.

And the mention of Thor has little to do with you, as I was responding to wolverinos, not you. Reread it.

Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not. Originally posted by carver9
The question should be "in a forum fight should there be an argument on Superman blitzing Hulk a thousand times before he can react, or Surfer opening a Black Hole in Superman head or turning his costume to kryptonite or trapping him inside his board...or should we debate on Thor creating a million tornados with the power of a thousand winds against Superman while raining down magical lightning while at the same time having Mjlonir speed blitzing him left and right.

None of these showings have been displayed in a comics but both Thor and Surfer are capable of this.

Correct

Originally posted by carver9
Who kept up with Flash Attosecond? Scans? http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Superspeed1.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Superspeed2.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Superspeed3.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006

Originally posted by SamZED
Where do you stand on the subject and why? If a theoretical feat is consistent with the character's powerset and personality, then I find nothing wrong with inferring it.

Originally posted by Uriel005
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Superspeed1.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Superspeed2.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Superspeed3.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006

Where was it stated they were moving at attoseconds?

Originally posted by Uriel005
At the same time it doesn't mean that like an idiot characters with speed are going to stand and take hits from people who are clearly infinitely slower than them either which is what a lot of debaters seem to think speedsters would do. Regardless eventually they will start to utilize more and more force as they feel out how their opponents will handle it. In the case of Superman vs. Hulk CIS off Hulk should never hit a light speed character with the reactions to match... He's really great in a stand up fight but asking him to hit someone who can keep up with the Flash's attosecond perceptions and speed is just something that should be off the table just as 99% of all comic book fights where any common mook lands a shot that effects a nigh invulnerable character or a character they just outright shouldn't land a shot on happens. If it makes you feel better to call someone like Superman an idiot in comics because he does get hit all the time by slower opponents, then fine. I don't believe Superman is an idiot because he gets hit by slower opponents. There are reasons Superman gets hit by slower opponents. There are also reasons he doesn't instantly FTL speedblitz a Hulk-class foe to death. You don't care to reflect on why that's the case, but your willful ignorance doesn't change the 1,000s of issues of published fiction we draw from. Work with what you have. Not with what you don't.

And Superman did not keep up with attosecond timing. That is a plain false statement. And easily recognized by simply reading the comic in question. Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not. Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here.

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-pannel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why? It's simple. Superman could, but wouldn't punch Hulk that many times, because he'd risk killing him. Superman would, however, use his speed and Hulk would never touch him. Clark would punch him however many times it takes before Hulk is able to move another synapse to knock him out.

Anybody saying that Superman doing something at superspeed that doesn't involve fighting, but for some reason that doesn't apply to his superspeed in a fight is, simply put, retarded.

That's like saying that just because Jim hasn't been in a fight in his whole life but has obviously been doing things that involve human speed, and a snail has been seen fighting other snails and doing well, it means that the guy couldn't blitz smash the snail. Or that he's not smart enough to do so.

pfft, tell that to turbo. sneer

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.

Once is enough.

Originally posted by ODG
If it makes you feel better to call someone like Superman an idiot in comics because he does get hit all the time by slower opponents, then fine. I don't believe Superman is an idiot because he gets hit by slower opponents. There are reasons Superman gets hit by slower opponents. There are also reasons he doesn't instantly FTL speedblitz a Hulk-class foe to death. You don't care to reflect on why that's the case, but your willful ignorance doesn't change the 1,000s of issues of published fiction we draw from. Work with what you have. Not with what you don't.

And Superman did not keep up with attosecond timing. That is a plain false statement. And easily recognized by simply reading the comic in question. Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here. So assuming you were superman you'd stand and let class 100+ who are laughably slower than you, who you know could hurt you, punch you in the face.... This has been done w/ 0 collateral damage potential in comics and you don't think its... oh I don't know a little stupid. Maybe the character inspired type.

Edit: just because I have a feeling your going to ask for an example

How about any villain superman has fought in the dead of space who didn't have superspeed.

Lol. Im quite sure if a character can do something, then the writers would have shown them doing it. Especially if they have been around for so long. Superman has never thrown 1000 punches a second and to assume he can when its not portrayed even by his writers is wishful thinking. It will hold no water in a debate if it has never happened on-panel. I think feats that has happened on-panel works best in a debate. People tend to give characters fan boosted abilities in order to say that their character will win. You know this when they claim 1000 punches per second and neglect to even think about saying at least 20 punches per second, They always use feats that has never happened in the comics. Im sure they could sell the 20 or show scans to support the 20 per second. But as always, they tend to go way overboard FTW. With no proof whatsoever.

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-pannel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why?


Most speedsters would make for dull stories.

The constant argument that speed doesn't win especially when matched with strength is tedious and why most comic debates are about writers intent rather then what the actual characters are capable of.

I thought my first post, the first post other than the Op would have ended this.

Cis, like prep should only be used on characters that have a level of stupidity that directly effects them in combat. (Ie. Creel, Rhino, Grundy)

Most people tend to use Cis to mean Forum mode though...

Originally posted by JBL
Lol. Im quite sure if a character can do something, then the writers would have shown them doing it. Especially if they have been around for so long. Superman has never thrown 1000 punches a second and to assume he can when its not portrayed even by his writers is wishful thinking. It will hold no water in a debate if it has never happened on-panel. I think feats that has happened on-panel works best in a debate. People tend to give characters fan boosted abilities in order to say that their character will win. You know this when they claim 1000 punches per second and neglect to even think about saying at least 20 punches per second, They always use feats that has never happened in the comics. Im sure they could sell the 20 or show scans to support the 20 per second. But as always, they tend to go way overboard FTW. With no proof whatsoever.

what a dumb post.
superman done things greater than punching 1000 punches a second.
your logic is just ignorant, basically you are saying if a man can stomp an ant, it does not mean he can stomp a different type of bug because you never saw him smash something aside of ant.
superman rebuild a city within a moment, thats speed of movement and throwing punches is much easier to accomplish.
superman speed blitzed his opponents and threw dozens of punches before they could even react in several situations already.
but people like you cant do 1+1, oh no... you need the writers to write everything down for you.
you need the writer to hold your hand and tell you directly, SUPERMAN CAN PUNCH 1000 PUNCHES IN A SECOND.
yeah right... then you say hyperbole or in case it will be a feat you will call it PIS or what ever people are using to dismiss anything they dont like.

I would argue that anyone capable of FTL travel would also have FTL reflexes. In the comic universes space isn't nearly as empty as it is in the real world. With thousands of space faring civilizations and entire planetary systems surrounding almost every star in the Marvel/DC universes anyone traveling at faster than light speed would have to react with ftl reflexes to anything that is coming at them. If I am traveling at 60mph and the car coming at me is traveling at the same speed, then reflex speed would have to be at least 120mph to avoid a collision.

Originally posted by wolverinos
what a dumb post.
superman done things greater than punching 1000 punches a second.
your logic is just ignorant, basically you are saying if a man can stomp an ant, it does not mean he can stomp a different type of bug because you never saw him smash something aside of ant.
superman rebuild a city within a moment, thats speed of movement and throwing punches is much easier to accomplish.
superman speed blitzed his opponents and threw dozens of punches before they could even react in several situations already.
but people like you cant do 1+1, oh no... you need the writers to write everything down for you.
you need the writer to hold your hand and tell you directly, SUPERMAN CAN PUNCH 1000 PUNCHES IN A SECOND.
yeah right... then you say hyperbole or in case it will be a feat you will call it PIS or what ever people are using to dismiss anything they dont like. The best argument is "Superman is the good guy so of course he wins"

crylaugh

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not.
Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Ah, I see. Apparently you don't understand the scope of the argument to begin with. And let me say for the record, I am the opposite of a Superman fan to begin with and this has NOTHING whatsoever with me attempting to defend this lame character. The argument is a intellectual one, that being whether or not someone CAN do something they have not been shown to do in the past. The question as it pertains to comics is a) whether or not and act is within their capabilities, b) whether or not it's likely to happen based on the set of circumstances including the character's known tendencies/beliefs and c) whether or not it would be successful. The only question I addressed is a: Superman IS capable of doing such based on his known power set. That piece is totally inarguable. And that's where I left things. I didn't argue b or c at all.

Originally posted by Uriel005
So assuming you were superman you'd stand and let class 100+ who are laughably slower than you, who you know could hurt you, punch you in the face.... This has been done w/ 0 collateral damage potential in comics and you don't think its... oh I don't know a little stupid. Maybe the character inspired type.

Edit: just because I have a feeling your going to ask for an example

How about any villain superman has fought in the dead of space who didn't have superspeed. There are plenty of times Superman has led with his face, because he has said so on-panel. There are innumerable times where he isn't letting them hit him just because. How you decide to manufacture excuses is your own cup of tea. My suggestion is that you stop reading comics because they make Superman stupid in every issue for *gasp* getting punched. You must be infuriated every single time it happens. Or you're not. In which case, think about it. Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Ah, I see. Apparently you don't understand the scope of the argument to begin with. And let me say for the record, I am the opposite of a Superman fan to begin with and this has NOTHING whatsoever with me attempting to defend this lame character. The argument is a intellectual one, that being whether or not someone CAN do something they have not been shown to do in the past. The question as it pertains to comics is a) whether or not and act is within their capabilities, b) whether or not it's likely to happen based on the set of circumstances including the character's known tendencies/beliefs and c) whether or not it would be successful. The only question I addressed is a: Superman IS capable of doing such based on his known power set. That piece is totally inarguable. And that's where I left things. I didn't argue b or c at all. Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here.

Originally posted by ODG
There are plenty of times Superman has led with his face, because he has said so on-panel. There are innumerable times where he isn't letting them hit him just because. How you decide to manufacture excuses is your own cup of tea. My suggestion is that you stop reading comics because they make Superman stupid in every issue for *gasp* getting punched. You must be infuriated every single time it happens. Or you're not. In which case, think about it. Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here. I didn't say I hated it I just said it was a bit stupid. I've said the same thing about flash as well. There would be no story if they lived up to their potential in a lot of cases.

As for your second part... stop debating period. If you want to argue that then you may as well argue that all fights being debated on herald+ class shouldn't happen if they haven't had in comic fights. No one knows exactly how any character would respond to a character they haven't encountered. Supposing you have Sentry and Supes going at it, what are they going to do love tap eachother for fear of permanently crippling the other. People are giving you the proof that a character could do something and you acknowledge that but turn around and say that they won't. Great now prove that they wouldn't eventually resort to more drastic measures as a fight goes on. Or in your opinion do they carry on like a moron and continue to try the same thing over and over again knowing it won't work.

Originally posted by carver9
The question should be "in a forum fight should there be an argument on Superman blitzing Hulk a thousand times before he can react, or Surfer opening a Black Hole in Superman head or turning his costume to kryptonite or trapping him inside his board...or should we debate on Thor creating a million tornados with the power of a thousand winds against Superman while raining down magical lightning while at the same time having Mjlonir speed blitzing him left and right.

None of these showings have been displayed in a comics but both Thor and Surfer are capable of this. Superman doesn't have to blitz at all. He can hit Hulk one time every 10 seconds. But he uses speed and power to do so and speed to avoid Hulk's attacks.

Surfer opening a black hole in someone's head would kill them. Surfer doesn't kill unnecessarily. I'm not sure if Surfer has the capability to put a black hole inside someone. I know he can create one next to them though. Also you have the problem of creativity. Does Surfer even have the creativity to even think of that in a battle. I know I didn't before it was mentioned by a poster a long time ago.

Originally posted by carver9
The question should be "in a forum fight should there be an argument on Superman blitzing Hulk a thousand times before he can react, or Surfer opening a Black Hole in Superman head or turning his costume to kryptonite or trapping him inside his board...or should we debate on Thor creating a million tornados with the power of a thousand winds against Superman while raining down magical lightning while at the same time having Mjlonir speed blitzing him left and right.

None of these showings have been displayed in a comics but both Thor and Surfer are capable of this.

This.

This isn't a one way street, if these rules apply for speed then we need to add them for versatility as well which means that someone like Surfer who has both speed and versatility should mud stomp someone with any type of weaknesses. This is simple.

You quote yourself, and in the quotest post you show laughable bias.

You'd be an excellent Sith.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
I would argue that anyone capable of FTL travel would also have FTL reflexes. In the comic universes space isn't nearly as empty as it is in the real world. With thousands of space faring civilizations and entire planetary systems surrounding almost every star in the Marvel/DC universes anyone traveling at faster than light speed would have to react with ftl reflexes to anything that is coming at them. If I am traveling at 60mph and the car coming at me is traveling at the same speed, then reflex speed would have to be at least 120mph to avoid a collision.

FTL reflexes involve reaction to things moving at light speed within battle distance. reacting to something further away than battle distance doesn't require FTL reflexes. For example, if you are flying toward the sun at light speed (which is the same as the sun heading towards you at light speed) then you have a total of 8 minutes to react.

In a nutshell, if you can react in less than a 6 nanoseconds to an attack launched 2 meters away from you then you have FTL reflexes.

Originally posted by carver9
This.

This isn't a one way street, if these rules apply for speed then we need to add them for versatility as well which means that someone like Surfer who has both speed and versatility should mud stomp someone with any type of weaknesses. This is simple.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman doesn't have to blitz at all. He can hit Hulk one time every 10 seconds. But he uses speed and power to do so and speed to avoid Hulk's attacks.

Surfer opening a black hole in someone's head would kill them. Surfer doesn't kill unnecessarily. I'm not sure if Surfer has the capability to put a black hole inside someone. I know he can create one next to them though. Also you have the problem of creativity. Does Surfer even have the creativity to even think of that in a battle. I know I didn't before it was mentioned by a poster a long time ago.

Originally posted by ODG
There are plenty of times Superman has led with his face, because he has said so on-panel. There are innumerable times where he isn't letting them hit him just because. How you decide to manufacture excuses is your own cup of tea. My suggestion is that you stop reading comics because they make Superman stupid in every issue for *gasp* getting punched. You must be infuriated every single time it happens. Or you're not. In which case, think about it. Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here.

If you were going to concede the debate, all you had to do was say so. Are you obsessed with your own text or something? You've posted the same thing three times and I understood it the first time. Respond to my points or continue on having a conversation with yourself.

Originally posted by h1a8
FTL reflexes involve reaction to things moving at light speed within battle distance. reacting to something further away than battle distance doesn't require FTL reflexes. For example, if you are flying toward the sun at light speed (which is the same as the sun heading towards you at light speed) then you have a total of 8 minutes to react.

In a nutshell, if you can react in less than a 6 nanoseconds to an attack launched 2 meters away from you then you have FTL reflexes.

That's utter nonsense. If that was the case, then little things like asteroids might just get in the way. You one would have to have the ability to perceive and react at that speed.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I didn't say I hated it I just said it was a bit stupid. I've said the same thing about flash as well. There would be no story if they lived up to their potential in a lot of cases.

As for your second part... stop debating period. If you want to argue that then you may as well argue that all fights being debated on herald+ class shouldn't happen if they haven't had in comic fights. No one knows exactly how any character would respond to a character they haven't encountered. Supposing you have Sentry and Supes going at it, what are they going to do love tap eachother for fear of permanently crippling the other. People are giving you the proof that a character could do something and you acknowledge that but turn around and say that they won't. Great now prove that they wouldn't eventually resort to more drastic measures as a fight goes on. Or in your opinion do they carry on like a moron and continue to try the same thing over and over again knowing it won't work.

thumbsup

This guy is like arguing with your dad when you were 6 years old. "Because I said" so doesn't cut it here.

Originally posted by wolverinos
what a dumb post.
superman done things greater than punching 1000 punches a second.
your logic is just ignorant, basically you are saying if a man can stomp an ant, it does not mean he can stomp a different type of bug because you never saw him smash something aside of ant.
superman rebuild a city within a moment, thats speed of movement and throwing punches is much easier to accomplish.
superman speed blitzed his opponents and threw dozens of punches before they could even react in several situations already.
but people like you cant do 1+1, oh no... you need the writers to write everything down for you.
you need the writer to hold your hand and tell you directly, SUPERMAN CAN PUNCH 1000 PUNCHES IN A SECOND.
yeah right... then you say hyperbole or in case it will be a feat you will call it PIS or what ever people are using to dismiss anything they dont like. Here we go again... Show superman punching ANYTHING 1000 times a second. You have one year to show a scan of him doing it. your time starts now. When you FAIL, go cry to the writers and ask them why he has never done it. And my post was dumb?? LMAO!

Originally posted by h1a8


Why wouldn't Surfer create a Black Hole in someones head or turn their uniform to adamantium or phase his hands through their chest snatching out their heart or phase his board through them or absorb their energy or suck out their soul or turn small and fight them from the inside out. Surfer options are unlimited and if we are granting this done outside of what is shown in a comic to one character then we need to benefit all.

Like I've stated before, people like Surfer, Thor, Sentry, and even Nova Prime would be unbeatable. Their versatility is insane and they have the speed to do this before getting blitzed.

Originally posted by JBL
When you FAIL, go cry to the writers and ask them why he has never done it.

Exactly and thats the point of the thread.

Debating the powers based on writers and your interpretation..........if writers wrote his speed in conjunction with his strength he would be even more boring.

Originally posted by JBL
Here we go again... Show superman punching ANYTHING 1000 times a second. You have one year to show a scan of him doing it. your time starts now. When you FAIL, go cry to the writers and ask them why he has never done it. And my post was dumb?? LMAO!

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6668/doomsdayrex118xm.jpg

http://dreager1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/week01-2000-superman_v2-152-04.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/f/fa/Imperiex_Probes_001.jpg


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/2959691-6399402149-26293.jpg

because these guys are definitely slow-pokes with no reaction feats...

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
That's utter nonsense. If that was the case, then little things like asteroids might just get in the way. You one would have to have the ability to perceive and react at that speed.
Space is huge. Asteroids are minutes away (not seconds or less) traveling at light speed. Plus the density of asteroids is so small that you have less than .00000001 chance of hitting one traveling blind. You are thinking of speeds of millions of times that of light, where asteroid blink past you in microseconds or less.

Speed is meaningless without concerning time or distance.
If it takes you 2 seconds to react to something then how fast you or the object is moving is irrelevant as you have 2 second reaction time.

Originally posted by h1a8
Space is huge. Asteroids are minutes away (not seconds or less) traveling at light speed. Plus the density of asteroids is so small that you have less than .00000001 chance of hitting one traveling blind. You are thinking of speeds of millions of times that of light, where asteroid blink past you in microseconds or less.

Speed is meaningless without concerning time or distance.
If it takes you 2 seconds to react to something then how fast you or the object is moving is irrelevant as you have 2 second reaction time.

Dude, charcters flying at light speed or more are not blind missiles launching themselves in a straight line, they are flying, perceiving and thinking. They aren't depicted like Tiger Beetles who are so fast, they run into things because their ability to perceived their environment can't keep up with their speed.

Originally posted by Uriel005
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6668/doomsdayrex118xm.jpg

http://dreager1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/week01-2000-superman_v2-152-04.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/f/fa/Imperiex_Probes_001.jpg


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/2959691-6399402149-26293.jpg

because these guys are definitely slow-pokes with no reaction feats... So which scan is 1000 punches a second? No one is saying superman is slow.

Originally posted by Uriel005
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6668/doomsdayrex118xm.jpg

http://dreager1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/week01-2000-superman_v2-152-04.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/f/fa/Imperiex_Probes_001.jpg


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/2959691-6399402149-26293.jpg

because these guys are definitely slow-pokes with no reaction feats... FAIL. That is hardly 1000 hits per second. Neither the dialogue, narration, or artwork indicated that that was anywhere near the 1000 hps speed blitz thatSuperman fan boys treat as common practice.

Who said punching someone 1000 times a second is the only way to blitz? With superman's strength, such a blitz would kill damn near anybody and that's why writers tend to avoid showing such blitzes. This is better anyway.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567720_Superman_Batman_09-19.JPG

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said punching someone 1000 times a second is the only way to blitz? With superman's strength, such a blitz would kill damn near anybody and that's why writers tend to avoid showing such blitzes. This is better anyway.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567720_Superman_Batman_09-19.JPG Yet another FAIL.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said punching someone 1000 times a second is the only way to blitz? With superman's strength, such a blitz would kill damn near anybody and that's why writers tend to avoid showing such blitzes. This is better anyway.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567720_Superman_Batman_09-19.JPG

I pray for most top tiers who get punched once. 100? That's instant death!

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said punching someone 1000 times a second is the only way to blitz? With superman's strength, such a blitz would kill damn near anybody and that's why writers tend to avoid showing such blitzes. This is better anyway.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567720_Superman_Batman_09-19.JPG

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said punching someone 1000 times a second is the only way to blitz? With superman's strength, such a blitz would kill damn near anybody and that's why writers tend to avoid showing such blitzes. This is better anyway.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567720_Superman_Batman_09-19.JPG Your point? Unless there is some indication of how much time is taking place between panels then that's no more impressive than a Spiderman or Quicksilver blitz.

Originally posted by JBL
Yet another FAIL.
I could show you anything superman related and you would say it FAILS. Its alright, superman wouldn't hurt you.
Originally posted by carver9



Originally posted by Brockalizer
Your point? Unless there is some indication of how much time is taking place between panels then that's no more impressive than a Spiderman or Quicksilver blitz.
orly

Harbinger is one of the most powerful beings in DCU. She killed Monitor in the COIE. Beating 7 of her bodies in a single blitz is damn impressive. Punching someone 1000 times only for them to shrug it off isn't impressive. Speed Demon punched Spock thousands of times and he wasn't even KOED. I don't want superman to have such a feat where his punching power is sold short for his speed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Harbinger is one of the most powerful beings in DCU. She killed Monitor in the COIE. Beating 7 of her bodies in a single blitz is damn impressive.

Harbringer, the one who was killed by four of those Doomsday clones off panel and sparred with Supergirl IIRC?

Don't you think the power level she displayed in the Superman/Batman arc is far more relevant then her Pre-Crisis history?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Harbringer, the one who was killed by four of those Doomsday clones off panel and sparred with Supergirl IIRC?

Don't you think the power level she displayed in the Superman/Batman arc is far more relevant then her Pre-Crisis history?
She wasn't killed by doomsday clones. She already saw her death by the female furies and didn't struggle with it. Superman even said that if Harbinger has gone bad, they were all in real trouble.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567976_Superman_Batman_09-17.JPG

Artemis sparred with supergirl.

What pre-crisis history? COIE is firmly in post-crisis history and her killing Monitor is referenced multiple times.

Originally posted by abhilegend
She wasn't killed by doomsday clones. She already saw her death by the female furies and didn't struggle with it. Superman even said that if Harbinger has gone bad, they were all in real trouble.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567976_Superman_Batman_09-17.JPG

Artemis sparred with supergirl.

What pre-crisis history? COIE is firmly in post-crisis history and her killing Monitor is referenced multiple times.

The female furies? That's a far cry from trying to portray her as one of the most powerful beings in DC. That's a lie. Batman specifically said she put up a struggle and went down fighting:
http://wtfdccomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/superman-batman-10-21.jpg

And then he knocked her away without much fuss.

There's probably context to her killing the Anti-Monitor but that's besides the point. The way you phrased your statement, was a bit contradictory to the way she was portrayed to the story you posted. I just find that somewhat....deceptive.

Anyways, I just thought I should make a note of it to people reading this thread but everyone should know better by now so carry on.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I didn't say I hated it I just said it was a bit stupid. I've said the same thing about flash as well. There would be no story if they lived up to their potential in a lot of cases.

As for your second part... stop debating period. If you want to argue that then you may as well argue that all fights being debated on herald+ class shouldn't happen if they haven't had in comic fights. No one knows exactly how any character would respond to a character they haven't encountered. Supposing you have Sentry and Supes going at it, what are they going to do love tap eachother for fear of permanently crippling the other. People are giving you the proof that a character could do something and you acknowledge that but turn around and say that they won't. Great now prove that they wouldn't eventually resort to more drastic measures as a fight goes on. Or in your opinion do they carry on like a moron and continue to try the same thing over and over again knowing it won't work. Except there are numerous fights where Flash instantly defeats a foe with thousands of hits before they can react. And fights with other superspeedsters where thousands of hits are thrown that leave characters like Superman and Wonder Woman in the dust. There's a difference between Flash and Superman.

Your hypothetical is nonsensical. Superman has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Sentry. Sentry has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Superman. Is this supposed to be some groundbreaking news? If I want to think about how a fight would go between Superman and Sentry, I'd look at what they've done against similarly powered foes. And it tells a lot.

More to the point, what Superman's history doesn't show, is Superman instantly defeating Grundy with thousands of punches at the start of a fight. And that undeniable fact should inform you that maybe there's a reason for it. If you ever decided to get out of your delusional mindset and act like every time Superman gets hit, he's being stupid within the four corners of the book. That is no way to read comics, much less discuss them. Originally posted by Uriel005
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6668/doomsdayrex118xm.jpg

http://dreager1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/week01-2000-superman_v2-152-04.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/f/fa/Imperiex_Probes_001.jpg


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/2959691-6399402149-26293.jpg

because these guys are definitely slow-pokes with no reaction feats... And not in one of these instances is Superman instantly defeating his foe with thousands of punches before they could even react. And none of them have even proven themselves to be faster than Hulk. At all. Moreover, two of those opponents pretty much no-sold the blitzes (including the weakest Doomsday ever). It's like you went out of your way to prove exactly what I said pages ago: Originally posted by ODG
What I have seen is dozens of instances where Superman rushes an opponent with a flurry of punches. And rarely, if ever, do I see it result in more than a staggering of the Hulk-class foe. And there have been times where it kinda gets no-sold. That suggests something. And while that "something" may not align with preconceived notions, it's not like it's based on nothing.

It's based on comics.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
If you were going to concede the debate, all you had to do was say so. Are you obsessed with your own text or something? You've posted the same thing three times and I understood it the first time. Respond to my points or continue on having a conversation with yourself. Maybe it's just you, but you were the one responding to my initial post and taking issue with it. You thought I was saying one thing and approached it with a completely pointless post. Which is why I keep repeating that you need to read what I wrote.

I am not telling you to reread what I wrote because I am enamored of the post. You're just acting like I'm the one who misinterpreted your post... except that post of your's was misinterpreting mine. I'm not the one who stumbled into this thread taking issue with you and massacring simple English to manufacture an argument with nobody. The opposite. So you who misread my first post and started talking past me like a moron, need to stop trying to rewrite history and act like the shoe's on the other foot. The conversation is plain to see if you can manage clicking back 2-3 pages.

So do yourself a favor and retrace the conversation and address me when you can understand simple English.

Originally posted by ODG
Except there are numerous fights where Flash instantly defeats a foe with thousands of hits before they can react. And fights with other superspeedsters where thousands of hits are thrown that leave characters like Superman and Wonder Woman in the dust. There's a difference between Flash and Superman.

Your hypothetical is nonsensical. Superman has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Sentry. Sentry has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Superman. Is this supposed to be some groundbreaking news? If I want to think about how a fight would go between Superman and Sentry, I'd look at what they've done against similarly powered foes. And it tells a lot.

More to the point, what Superman's history doesn't show, is Superman instantly defeating Grundy with thousands of punches at the start of a fight. And that undeniable fact should inform you that maybe there's a reason for it. If you ever decided to get out of your delusional mindset and act like every time Superman gets hit, he's being stupid within the four corners of the book. That is no way to read comics, much less discuss them. And not in one of these instances is Superman instantly defeating his foe with thousands of punches before they could even react. And none of them have even proven themselves to be faster than Hulk. At all. Moreover, two of those opponents pretty much no-sold the blitzes (including the weakest Doomsday ever). It's like you went out of your way to prove exactly what I said pages ago: And captain boomerang/most of flash's rogue gallery sans the zooms should ever hit him....

^ You can make the argument that Flash can instantly defeat the Rogues without ever getting touched because he has... in fact, done so. So you can argue that. As that would be based on comics. Heck, he came close to instantly defeating Wonder Woman before she could even react. So, there you go. But we're talking Superman here, not Flash.

What Superman hasn't done, is defeat a Hulk-class foe instantly with thousands of punches before he could react. There is no trick I am pulling here. This is comics. So you can ignore the complete absence of precedential proof all you want.

But that you would turn around and so brazenly post scans of Superman using his combat superspeed blitzes that get no-sold, aren't defeating his foe instantly, are merely staggering these Hulk-class foes... and act like you're not eroding your very own argument is baffling.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The female furies? That's a far cry from trying to portray her as one of the most powerful beings in DC. That's a lie. Batman specifically said she put up a struggle and went down fighting:
http://wtfdccomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/superman-batman-10-21.jpg

And then he knocked her away without much fuss.

There's probably context to her killing the Anti-Monitor but that's besides the point. The way you phrased your statement, was a bit contradictory to the way she was portrayed to the story you posted. I just find that somewhat....deceptive.

Anyways, I just thought I should make a note of it to people reading this thread but everyone should know better by now so carry on.
Yes, the Female Furies who were giving a hard time to Wonder Woman and Barda in the same arc too.

Also She wasn't interested in fighting them because she knew her end was coming and it was necessary or some BS. Batman didn't come untill she was dead and Supergirl already gone.

He blitzed her seven bodies at once and knocked her out.

There isn't much context to it. Anti-monitor took control of her and then she killed Monitor. Despite what you think its actually a feat for her and superman actually realized just how powerful she was.

As usual you try to demean any feat which you don't like. I get it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
She wasn't killed by doomsday clones. She already saw her death by the female furies and didn't struggle with it. Superman even said that if Harbinger has gone bad, they were all in real trouble. Hyperbole doesn't replace reality. Statements similar to that are common even, when characters go off the reservation i.e Thor. There isn't a doubt in my mind that Superman would say something similar if Batman or Green Lantern turned on the League. Doesn't mean Batman>>>Superman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said punching someone 1000 times a second is the only way to blitz? With superman's strength, such a blitz would kill damn near anybody and that's why writers tend to avoid showing such blitzes. This is better anyway.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16567720_Superman_Batman_09-19.JPG

Good point, except for the fact that they never do.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Hyperbole doesn't replace reality. Statements similar to that are common even, when characters go off the reservation i.e Thor. There isn't a doubt in my mind that Superman would say something similar if Batman or Green Lantern turned on the League. Doesn't mean Batman>>>Superman.
Batman and Green Lantern don't go on killing one of the most powerful beings ever seen in DCU like Monitor on regular basis.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Batman and Green Lantern don't go on killing one of the most powerful beings ever seen in DCU like Monitor on regular basis. But they could, that is my point. Harbinger beating AM isn't anymore impressive than Iceman beating Oblivion IMO.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
But they could, that is my point. Harbinger beating AM isn't anymore impressive than Iceman beating Oblivion IMO.
She also pulled three universes in a single pocket universe forcibly.

How many characters can do a feat like moving three universes at once?

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16571492_1178443-scan0039.jpg

Not many I guess.

Comic Writers should probably read the comments in this thread.And I see Superman is brought up again in this matter.And its true that statements like "Superman will throw a 1000 punches to defeat (Insert Character name here) in a sec!" statement in a CISless environment.And of course Superman has speed feats.But the problem is still providing scans to show that he can.I guess this is the time I would probably ask, "Where do we draw the line between feats and logic?" when it comes to certain characters.Its easier to say "Thor will BFR (Insert Character name here) to Ginnungagap(Asgardian Void) for the win!" statement than it is for "Superman will throw a 1000 punches to defeat (Insert Character name here)!" statement in a CISless scenario.Of course BFR is on that scenario.Why is it easier to say Thor will BFR his opponent as oppose to Superman throwing 1000 punches against his opponent?

Here are the reasons.

1.Thor has BFRed Opponents before like the Destroyer.,Juggernaut and etc.
2.You can easily insert the name of the place where Thor will send them.Ginnungagap is the Asgardian Void.Its just 1 of many places where he can send his opponent.It was featured in Thor Annual Vol 1 #5.Its viable in a CISless BFR on scenario.
3.Thor is a magical character.A God who possess Mjolnir that is capable of opening portals or simply zapping his opponent to some place or in some instances, teleport his opponents(forgot what issue it was in New Avengers) instantly.

The mentioned above is both a feat with logic inserted to it that is viable on a CISless BFR on environment Comic Character Vs scenario for Thor.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, the Female Furies who were giving a hard time to Wonder Woman and Barda in the same arc too.

Also She wasn't interested in fighting them because she knew her end was coming and it was necessary or some BS. Batman didn't come untill she was dead and Supergirl already gone.

He blitzed her seven bodies at once and knocked her out.

There isn't much context to it. Anti-monitor took control of her and then she killed Monitor. Despite what you think its actually a feat for her and superman actually realized just how powerful she was.

As usual you try to demean any feat which you don't like. I get it.

And I'm pretty sure they lost, no? Either way, my point is that Harbringer's power levels in the story relevant to Superman knocking away, were nowhere near her destroying the Monitor. Or moving three goddamn Universes when she was killed by some Furies off panel.

Not what Batman said.

Let me it this way: You're saying Superman took on Bad Guy No. 1 and in a previous story (That took place during a major company overhaul, especially the power levels) lifted a Universe when in the story with Superman, he'd be lucky to lift a bridge.

It just comes off as f*cking shady is all. Anyways, agree to disagree and all that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And I'm pretty sure they lost, no? Either way, my point is that Harbringer's power levels in the story relevant to Superman knocking away, were nowhere near her destroying the Monitor. Or moving three goddamn Universes when she was killed by some Furies off panel.

Not what Batman said.

Let me it this way: You're saying Superman took on Bad Guy No. 1 and in a previous story (That took place during a major company overhaul, especially the power levels) lifted a Universe when in the story with Superman, he'd be lucky to lift a bridge.

It just comes off as f*cking shady is all. Anyways, agree to disagree and all that.
Does it matter? She has those feats and it defines her power level since its the only story where she previously appeared majorly before. Anybody writing here would take COIE in consideration regarding her power levels.

Batman wasn't there when she was killed. He also said there were six furies when there are only four.


You have a proof that Harbinger wasn't that powerful, bring a proof. Or shut up. I don't care what you do.

It isn't shady at all. If it was Thor, you would post it whenever you could.

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't Surfer create a Black Hole in someones head or turn their uniform to adamantium or phase his hands through their chest snatching out their heart or phase his board through them or absorb their energy or suck out their soul or turn small and fight them from the inside out. Surfer options are unlimited and if we are granting this done outside of what is shown in a comic to one character then we need to benefit all.

Like I've stated before, people like Surfer, Thor, Sentry, and even Nova Prime would be unbeatable. Their versatility is insane and they have the speed to do this before getting blitzed. because he might not be capable of it.
How do you know surfer can create black holes inside someone very durable and not on the outside? How do you know he can make adamantium from clothes? No limit fallacy is bad.

Last, it isn't common sense for Surfer to think of these things. Those things are very creative. Superman using speed naturally is common sense. No crazy ass creativity needed.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Dude, charcters flying at light speed or more are not blind missiles launching themselves in a straight line, they are flying, perceiving and thinking. They aren't depicted like Tiger Beetles who are so fast, they run into things because their ability to perceived their environment can't keep up with their speed. you still fail to understand. Space is huge. Nothing is less than a second away traveling at light speed..

Basically, All material in space is more than a light second apart. That means anyone with 1 second reflexes can navigate at light speed without hitting anything. Talking about speed alone is meaningless. You have to add either time or distance.

ftl reflexes is being able to react to light speed attacks within a battle distance of 2 meters. Reacting to shit in space traveling at light speed isnt much if the shit is hundreds if thousands of miles away.

bump