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Which is more, uh, whats that word......effective? No, um, yes, effective?
In terms of prep? Like john constantine is magics prep god, reed and doom are sciences prep gods?
In terms of a straight up fight like battle suits armor etc or black adam or shazam in which they become very powerful by saying a word.
Which is more effective and uhh powerful?

Magic is the most versatile i believe

Both killed a Celestial...

I always thought magic was more powerful than science, due to it not being limited by the laws of physics etc where as science is, not sure though.

Magic has a lot more on the spot potential but Science typically wins the day with extended prep on the average.

A great example of this is Dr. Doom as a person who uses both Science and Magic.

His Science feats generally far outshine his magic feats and his magic is definitely no joke considering he was a contender for sorcerer supreme.

Furthermore the super high end cosmic threats generally tend to be resolved via tech i.e. Galactus, Celestials, Abstract entites (Pre-Ret Beyonder), Marquis of Death, MJJ(Via Fury who was tech based)

Of course once you get to a certain level things tend to blend i.e. any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So Magic users who are essentially manipulating reality with a high degree of control is technically using a system of science beyond what most can comprehend imo.

Isn't that Mxy?

It really depends on whether you mean soft- or hard science. Hard science is generally less versatile than magic, while soft science may well be on par with magic.

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Isn't that Mxy? pretty much. For all intents and purposes its magic even though he says its science.

Mxy's power got retconned to 4D imp tech for the reasons he was able to warp reality on the level he could, it used to be magic though.

Originally posted by LeonBuco666
Mxy's power got retconned to 4D imp tech for the reasons he was able to warp reality on the level he could, it used to be magic though. earth 2 Mxy was magic all others was always just science of another dimension iirc.

When mxy attacked SBP it didnt affect him because of SPB's nigh immunity to magic(emphasised) it got retconned a while after it was at one point magic, now very very very very advanced 4D imp tech

Depends where you draw the line,

Trans and Below: science

Above that though science starts losing points.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Depends where you draw the line,

Trans and Below: science

Above that though science starts losing points. Science has wiped out the universe... or multiverse depending where you look.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Depends where you draw the line,

Trans and Below: science

Above that though science starts losing points. Then it becomes cosmics which are indistinguishable between science and magic. Not that it really matters at that point.

Also technically mutants are science based.... they can be cloned and those clones will have their powers... No magic involved sans magical mutants.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Science has wiped out the universe... or multiverse depending where you look.

Sise Neg wiped out and remade the universe with magic though.

I was talking more Skyfathers and Elder Gods.

Heart of the Universe pretty much destroyed a Universe

HOTU- Heart of the Universe

Originally posted by Sundipped
Sise Neg wiped out and remade the universe with magic though. He's like the only adequate magic user though, besides Zom

There's also Alto Reed beating LT

Magic is pretty much better, or more handy at lower levels while Science can apparently do anything

^
Suffice to say Reed's scientific prowess is hard to beat but it's hard for me to see someone like Mxy not being able to warp any device Reed brings to the table.

I know I went cross company but I'm really just generally speaking in terms of magic and science going toe to toe against each other.

Science and magic are both pretty much plot devices. It really depends on what the writer prefers to use as his excuse for crazy bullshit. For a long time magic was the go to for this, but in modern continuity, science is utilized more often. Especially with beings like Reed Richards.

Originally posted by Sundipped
^
Suffice to say Reed's scientific prowess is hard to beat but it's hard for me to see someone like Mxy not being able to warp any device Reed brings to the table.

I know I went cross company but I'm really just generally speaking in terms of magic and science going toe to toe against each other. Mxy is pretty much based on whatever on any given day though. One day he's science, one day he's magic. Maybe he's just a mix of both; like a weaker version of Dr Doom

I remember all the butthurt from Spectre cutting him off, because his powers were "science".

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Mxy is pretty much based on whatever on any given day though. One day he's science, one day he's magic. Maybe he's just a mix of both; like a weaker version of Dr Doom

I remember all the butthurt from Spectre cutting him off, because his powers were "science".

IIRC it was that it's actually perceived as magic in the prime DC universe but a form of science in the 5th dimension.

Yeah and that same "science" was able to imprison Spectre when Joker had the imps power. I don't quite know what to make of it myself.

Originally posted by Sundipped
IIRC it was that it's actually perceived as magic in the prime DC universe but a form of science in the 5th dimension.

Yeah and that same "science" was able to imprison Spectre when Joker had the imps power. I don't quite know what to make of it myself. Yeah, he's something all right.

Honestly, I wouldn't put him in either category just to be safe.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Maybe he's just a mix of both; like a weaker version of Dr Doom

Mxy himself said that he uses 5D science-- it's just so advanced that sub-5D beings perceive it as magic.

I think Lord Chaos and Master Order are the highest magicals, although I do agree, the line blurs with cosmics as far as magic and science.

Magic

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I was talking more Skyfathers and Elder Gods.

Yet beings above them such as Galactus and Celestials seem to use "science" rather than "magic".

Anyway, I think "science" tends to be more powerful in Marvel while DC seems to have magic be more powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007


Mxy himself said that he uses 5D science-- it's just so advanced that sub-5D beings perceive it as magic.

I've just assumed 5D science was magic. Makes sense especially when one considers the fifth dimension is supposed to be imagination.

Originally posted by ares834
I've just assumed 5D science was magic. Makes sense especially when one considers the fifth dimension is supposed to be imagination. Like I said any sufficiently high level of technology can be considered magic for the intents and purposes of beings of lesser understanding. For instance if I went back in time to ancient Hellenic Greece and started handing out flashlights people might start calling me Apollo/some other form of demigod. I'd say Mxy's abilities fall safely into science, though again the point is moot.

They're the same.

Magic is the ultimate plot device. I hate it.

Science is only limited by the users intelligence and can be equally plot device. Mr Terrific, Reed, Doom, Banner, Thanos etc have some retarded feats in this field and have all defeted magic users at some point or another. These days Marvel seems to hint that magic is just unexplained science.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Science is only limited by the users intelligence and can be equally plot device. Mr Terrific, Reed, Doom, Banner, Thanos etc have some retarded feats in this field and have all defeted magic users at some point or another. These days Marvel seems to hint that magic is just unexplained science. technically by modern definition comic magic for the most part is science. The effects are calculable and consistent. "Magical" beings have a general system of measurement, power requirements and methodology for performing magic.

Originally posted by ares834
I've just assumed 5D science was magic. Makes sense especially when one considers the fifth dimension is supposed to be imagination. It's 5D science, but 3D magic if that makes sense.

Basically too 5D imps its just science, but to 3D beings its percieved as magic....

In the 3rd dimension, 5D science actually falls under the blanket of magical/mystical-- which is how Mxy's abilities are almost always referenced/classified. It is only defined as 'science' in the 5th dimension itself.

Originally posted by Uriel005
technically by modern definition comic magic for the most part is science. The effects are calculable and consistent. "Magical" beings have a general system of measurement, power requirements and methodology for performing magic.
MODERN definition I agree for the most part, but not all magic follows this law which is likely the point of the thread. Also it depends on who's standpoint we are looking at the op from.

Okay....
So mxy's powers are actually science in the 5th dimension, but are categorised as magic in the 3rd dimension....even though, technically, its extremely advanced 5D imp tech. Hm, confusing no?

Originally posted by LeonBuco666
Okay....
So mxy's powers are actually science in the 5th dimension, but are categorised as magic in the 3rd dimension....even though, technically, its extremely advanced 5D imp tech. Precisely.

As far back as Dr Fates Origin in the Golden Age Nabu told Kent he was teaching him secrets long forgotten. things like molecular control. He told Kent in his orogin that men would call it magic, but clearly that wasn't what it was meant to be.

Ult Reed knows and jnderstands magic. pre 52 Mr Terrific also was able to quantify much of it. Magic is and always has been a science we haven't grasped yet. they are the same thing

I wouldnt say they are the same thing boks

Originally posted by The Sorrow
MODERN definition I agree for the most part, but not all magic follows this law which is likely the point of the thread. Also it depends on who's standpoint we are looking at the op from. i thought the issue was which was better the further up you go. The higher magicals in comic universes tend to have their magics pretty consistent otherwise a skyfather magically scrying some far off event might accidentally "rocks fall everybody dies" the whole thing if their magic decided to turn the viewpoint into a blackhole

It was more "on a whole" as in from street levelers magic to abstract magic and the same with science.

Do what happens to 3D magic in a 5th dimensional world then

Originally posted by LeonBuco666
It was more "on a whole" as in from street levelers magic to abstract magic and the same with science. lower levels I'd say magic simply because with proper ritual and assuming cooperation I can get a deity to help in my endeavor and for a hell deity the cost is just my soul for a ridiculous amount of immediate gain 90% of the time. So low level comparable tech vs comparable mage, the mage has a pretty big ace if it really comes down to it where the tech hero is limited by resources and intelligence.

At higher levels they become more and more interchangeable but at the same time I don't see Odin and his ilk interacting with abstracts on the level of Reed or Pym as regularly as they seem to.... i.e. Galactus/LT/greater cosmic entities.

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Do what happens to 3D magic in a 5th dimensional world then

the same chance a single plankton has of doing anything to us.

So not do

It was stated by mxy iirc, that the 3rd dimension, due to him being from the 5th dimension.....he describes it as a piece of paper, he can write, draw erase and do anything to the paper or on it

Originally posted by LeonBuco666
I wouldnt say they are the same thing boks
over simplified on my part. What i mean is in most fiction magic is a science. it's been pointed that way several times through the history of both DC and Marvel.

Originally posted by beatboks
over simplified on my part. What i mean is in most fiction magic is a science. it's been pointed that way several times through the history of both DC and Marvel. oh I see.