Top 10 Jedi

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

does kyle ever get passed by Jaden?

caedus is extremely powerful

don't know about mara thing

all i know is that katarn was an absolute master of the saber, second only to luke during his time. he defeated 7 dark jedi masters with little training in the force, was the foremost battlemaster of the NJO, etc.

Edit: some krap about kyle

During the events of the Disciples of Ragnos Crisis, Katarn had already become one of the strongest swordsmen in the New Jedi Order and successfully trained Jaden Korr, arguably the most famous hero during those events. An extraordinary swordsman, Katarn became the New Jedi Order's foremost Battlemaster. His general mastery of the Force was incredible and surpassed all but the strongest Jedi Masters. Even Darth Caedus acknowledged Katarn's abilities, something he rarely did

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hero of Tython should be top or 2nd for accomplishments. Personally saved Tython, Tatooine, Voss and Belsavis from planetary destruction (and Coruscant iirc) and saved all life in the galaxy at the end of Act III.

Fair enough. He's not topping Luke though.

He calls himself one in TFUII. I mean, he has more training in the Jedi arts than Luke.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Han

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Mace Windu
4. Hero of Tython
5. Revan
6. Nomi Sunrider
7. Satele Shan
8. Kyp Durron
9. Anakin Skywalker (**** the rules)
10. Thon

If your going to screw the rules then you should definitely find room for Count Dooku too.

Nephthys

No-one screws the rules in my thread. >:Originally posted by Master Han
He calls himself one in TFUII. I mean, he has more training in the Jedi arts than Luke.

Yeah, and Caedus calls himself the Dark Lord of the Sith, but he's still just some berk fallen Jedi. Meanwhile the real Sith were still out there, laughing at the crazy man.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

although caedus was probably more powerful than those sith...

Nephthys

Krayt's >> him imo.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

your judgement is being extremely clouded right now then. i don't see why you'd hate him. and you can't really say "he's a whiny beeotch" because he fought against jaina with one arm

edit: and he coulda beaten her as well, but chose not to kill her

ROTJ Vader

1.Luke
2.Yoda
3.Satele Shan
4.Hero Of Tython
5.Bar'sen Thor
6.Mace Windu
7.Revan
8.Tol Bragga
9.Lord Hoth
10.Obi Wan Kenobi

not sure for REVAN(!).

DARTH POWER

Don't see how Obi-Wan can be in the Top 10 personally. He's good but gets stomped by the top Jedi powerhouses.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
1.Luke
2.Yoda
3.Satele Shan
4.Hero Of Tython
5.Bar'sen Thor
6.Mace Windu
7.Revan
8.Tol Bragga
9.Lord Hoth
10.Obi Wan Kenobi

not sure for REVAN(!).

forgot quite a few people, like kyle katarn, kyp durron, hero and barsen'thor should be ahead of satele, windu should also be ahead of satele, lord hoth doesnt have many feats (i dont think) ultimately, i think the most sound list would be....

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Hero of Tython
4. barsen'thor
5. Mace Windu
6. Kyp Durron
7. Kyle Katarn
8. Revan
9. Obi Wan Kenobi
10. Nomi Sunrider

Nephthys

Yeah, that seems like a good list, except get rid of Kenobi. DP's right there. Satele at least should be above him imo and I've heard some really good things about Cade Skywalker, which is why I put him on my list.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Cade is a scrub (as far as skywalkers go), but he MIGHT be above kenobi

Satele has done what to put herself above kenobi?

Q99

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Cade is a scrub (as far as skywalkers go), but he MIGHT be above kenobi

I'd say combat/saber wise he's below Luke/Yoda (maybe a bit above Kenobi as you say), but he does have the best healing feats of any Jedi bar none (he was 'pull back people from death,' with the Dark Side, and his healing got stronger when he learned to do it with light!), and some other major force feats besides, like force shields to casually let him walk out of a giant explosion.

So he's worth mentioning.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

ok, so maybe cade knocks off nomi

Nephthys

Lol, Nomi's above Kenobi dude.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

feats please (other than "lol she was a prodigy!!!" potential doesnt mean krap if it isnt realized)

Nephthys

Nomi has perhaps the fastest learning rate of pretty much everyone. The second time she uses a lightsaber she is apparently using it like a master.

She also has by far the most advanced form of Battle Meditation, to the point where it resembles mind control more than mere influence. At one point she gestures at some soldiers and they start fighting each other immediately. At another she forces two Hssiss to fight. Both times the enemies were going after her before she dominated their minds.

She was able to invade the mind of Aleema Keto while she was conjuring an illusionary army, illusionary fleets and illusionary space grazers and force her to stop despite Keto being amped and, well, the scale of that feat speaks for itself. I'm pretty sure Aleema's illusions were powerful enough to actually affect and kill enemies, so the whole feat is pretty bonkers imo.

Lastly Nomi can block blaster bolts with her hand, possesses the Sever Force technique and the Wall of Light technique and was proficient enough with the latter to lead the attack on Exar Kun, out of thousands of Jedi including her own Master, Thon.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and Caedus calls himself the Dark Lord of the Sith, but he's still just some berk fallen Jedi. Meanwhile the real Sith were still out there, laughing at the crazy man.

There's a reason why they just hid and laughed; he's more powerful than Vader and gave Luke serious injuries. He'd be the one laughing if he ever faced off against "Darth Krayt".

And do you really think Krayt would have gotten anywhere had Luke still been alive? Didn't think so.

Nephthys

I don't buy him being more powerful than Vader and Luke demonstrated that he's far above Caedus on multiple occasions. He only injured Luke because they were both fighting so recklessly.

Also I basically can't really give anyone credit for doing well against Luke. He's too inconsistent. Lumiya's done well against Luke. The same Lumiya who was overpowered by a random Jedi Knight in Betrayal and was losing against Master Tresina Lobi.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't buy him being more powerful than Vader

We already went over this. RotJ Luke = RotJ Vader in sabers. Caedus gave LotF Luke hell in this category, and defeated Katarn and his trio of knights.

Furthermore, Caedus is explicitly more powerful than Vader in the Force...and while I hate using authorial fiats, there has to be some basis to dismiss them beyond your not liking the character.

The point being that the fight wasn't really one sided, while a fight between Luke and Vader would be horribly one sided, and short.

Luke killed her quite efficiently, if not in a curbstomp, in the end. And it's clear from Lumiya's final conservation with Caedus that nobody seriously considered her to be capable of facing a murderous Skywalker on fair grounds.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Master Han
We already went over this. RotJ Luke = RotJ Vader in sabers. Caedus gave LotF Luke hell in this category, and defeated Katarn and his trio of knights.

Furthermore, Caedus is explicitly more powerful than Vader in the Force...and while I hate using authorial fiats, there has to be some basis to dismiss them beyond your not liking the character.

The point being that the fight wasn't really one sided, while a fight between Luke and Vader would be horribly one sided, and short.

Nah.

That was merely the blub of one of the books. Its dubious at best.

Nah.

Master Han

Well, I can't really argue with your first and third points. I gracefully concede to your superior intellect.

Nephthys

As I said I don't give anyone credit for doing well against Luke anymore. That stupid PIS-ridden fight is always the ONLY thing people bring up in regards to Caedus. And he didn't beat Katarn in a swordfight, he directed a speeder at him then got him while he was open.

Based

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Hero of Tython
4. Mace Windu
5. Satele Shan
6. Revan
7. Barsen'thor
8. Nomi Sunrider
9. Obi-Wan Kenobi
10. Kyp Durron

Q99

Originally posted by Master Han
He'd be the one laughing if he ever faced off against "Darth Krayt".

And do you really think Krayt would have gotten anywhere had Luke still been alive? Didn't think so.

Yes? I mean, he was building his order while Luke was still around.

And Luke was the one who talked about him and Krayt serving as the new 'Ones' to maintain the balance. Luke seemed to think he was rather powerful.

While he'd certainly beat Krayt, Krayt would certainly be a very formidable foe.

Don't forget why Caedus became Caedus- because if he didn't, he foresaw Krayt taking over the galaxy in just a few decades, installing Jacen's daughter as a Sith Queen!

Caedus's fall revolved around him feeling he wasn't powerful enough to stop Krayt, in short.

Yea, blurbs are crazy-unreliable. Plageius's book blurb says he never died.

He died in the book where it said this.

Nephthys

Also thats some crazy props given to Krayt by Luke. I think Krayt is severely underestimated. By all accounts the guy should be in those top 10 lists.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

i wanted to see what the internet world thinks of krayt, and most say he would be stomped by the likes of dooku.

ROTJ Vader

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
i wanted to see what the internet world thinks of krayt, and most say he would be stomped by the likes of dooku.

Nah, Krayt is amongest the most powerful. I can give you a list of some of his beast feats.

S_W_LeGenD

IMO, HoT should be above Yoda.

I know that Yoda have some old canonical sources vouching for his strength but even Luke doesn't have that level of hype going for him and still people like to rank him above Yoda.

Yoda, for all his strength, is not an exceptional fighter. And it isn't necessary that he is better then every Jedi prior to him. I recall Master fae as being more then a match for Yoda in strength factor.

It shall be noted that when Yoda ventured in to Dromund Kaas, his ability to use the Force in that world greatly diminished. In contrast, HoT have unparalleled performance in the same world, hinting on his possible superiority in ways of the Force.

Q99

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
i wanted to see what the internet world thinks of krayt, and most say he would be stomped by the likes of dooku.

What do you mean 'the internet'? Different boards have different opinions.

I've been on some where Krayt's quite highly respected. Some places tend to focus on the novels and the flowery quotes and put Bane way up there, others on the video games and their flash and Galen's a king.

This board for awhile didn't give Legacy much stock (not always thinking it weak, but often forgetting about it), but opinions have shifted more recently as knowledge of it grew.

A lot of people maybe knew some of the first issues. Start out, you've got him sick from the armor and some Holocrons talking smack... before we saw him and his do crazy stuff like rise from the dead, make himself felt across the galaxy, his minion curbstomp one of the ancient Sith, or One Sith out to be a key player in the Fate of the Jedi books, fighting Abeloth alongside Luke and appearing in Jacen's visions. Nor would many people be familiar with the large amount of lightsaber duels everyone in the legacy comics engaged in or Cade's force feats.

Nephthys

Legend.......

Just no. erm

Stigma

^ Exactly.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
IMO, HoT should be above Yoda.
rolling on floor laughing

Luke has more potential than Palpatine. He has plenty of accolades, from both in-universe and OOU perspectives, vouching for him. Much like Yoda, who has canon on his side; more accurately, data from the movie novelizations. So the burden of proof is on you to disprove it, and you've failed tremendously.

Wait, what? I seem to recall Yoda's being the greatest lightsaber duelist of his era. I seem to recall Sidious trying to run from the grandmaster, after taking out three of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced in a matter of seconds. I seem to recall Yoda disarming Ventress with little more than a gesture. In what universe is Yoda "not an exceptional fighter"? Perhaps it's his 8 centuries of combat experience? Perhaps it's Dooku's terrifying consideration of a dark side Yoda that would "annihilate" even Palpatine? Perhaps it's that said Dooku, one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year long history, "and an even greater sith lord", ran from Yoda, despite being on a dark side nexus and having a multitude of advantages over his old master?

She could lift six stones with intense meditation. Yoda could lift five normally after 700 years (and presumably six without meditation beforehand). This doesn't really establish her superiority, since she needed to meditate to pull of her feat. Perhaps Yoda simply never tried prepping for it.

Mind you, the whole muntuur stones is highly inconsistent with demonstrated canon evidence of Yoda lifting the equivalent of far more than five stones. wink

You aren't properly considering your word choice. "greatly diminished" denotes a change in performance that is hardly exclusive from "unparalleled".

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is your responsibility to offer a rebuttal at least. Lame laughs are not going to help your position.

Not only does he offer a rebuttal in the very same post, but it's difficult to make such a request, with your habit of dismissing all contrary evidence as "outdated" or, worse yet, "plot device".

Canon statements aren't sufficient reason for you?

Yoda makes it clear that he's conflicted over his former padawan and doesn't fully want to kill him. This has nothing to do with his combative ability. He's a Jedi, not a Sith, lol.

This has nothing to do with his power/combative ability...

And we all know that Vitiate's combat performances reflect brilliant tactical intelligence, right? Would you hold that mark against him in "top sith"?

LOL...no? Yoda is the most powerful light sider up until his time. He's more powerful than the Hero. He's more powerful than Revan. He's more powerful than Nomi Sunrider. He's more powerful than Satele Shan. Why is this so difficult for you to accept?

Yes. Ergo, he is the strongest.

1. Luke lives after Yoda's time.
2. Luke has been confirmed to have greater potential than Palpatine.

Speculation, speculation, speculation. How does any of this establish that the Hero is more powerful than Yoda? You're facing an uphill battle in which you must produce a sufficient quantity of evidence to override authorial fiat.

Yoda did not have many years left in him by ESB.

ROFLAMO - your utter inability to understand basic diction is comedic gold. Read this sentence again:

Your reply has no relevance to it whatsoever. You simply restate the very point I had already addressed and demonstrated to be invalid.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

and Legend claims he's not biased to the tor era roll eyes (sarcastic)

Allankles

Hard to make a top ten Jedi list but here I go.

1. Yoda
2. Anakin Skywalker
3. Luke
4. Hero of Tython
5. Obi Wan
6. Qui Gon Jinn
7. Mace Windu
8. Vodo Siosk Baas
9. Exile
10. Revan

EDIT: Notables: Satele Shan, Guy who trained yoda, Nomi Sunrider, Dooku, Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr

Based

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I know that Yoda have some old canonical sources vouching for his strength but even Luke doesn't have that level of hype going for him and still people like to rank him above Yoda.

Translation: If a source is hyping a character not from the TOR era it's not acceptable.

Allankles

Originally posted by Based
Translation: If a source is hyping a character not from the TOR era it's not acceptable.

stick out tongue

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by Allankles
Hard to make a top ten Jedi list but here I go.

1. Yoda
2. Anakin Skywalker
3. Luke
4. Hero of Tython
5. Obi Wan
6. Qui Gon Jinn
7. Mace Windu
8. Vodo Siosk Baas
9. Exile
10. Revan

EDIT: Notables: Satele Shan, Guy who trained yoda, Nomi Sunrider, Dooku, Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr
Luke should be first, and yoda second. i guess you could put the hero at third (though he barely edges mace windu) windu 4th, probably barsen'thor 5th, possibly nomi sunrider, then it might be interchangeable with katarn and revan, 9 might be kyp durron, and ten could be cade skywalker

Master Han

Is Cade particularly powerful?

Or are you referring to accomplishments?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

accomplishments, but do you think kenobi is above him in terms of combat power?

pencilcrayon

Effortlessly lifts the X-Wing

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
Not only does he offer a rebuttal in the very same post, but it's difficult to make such a request, with your habit of dismissing all contrary evidence as "outdated" or, worse yet, "plot device".

Canon statements aren't sufficient reason for you?
Actually the situation is more complicated then it seems:-

1. People have different perceptions about the same thing.
2. Their is no official consensus on these matters.
3. Fans are left to their own judgment.
4. If their was an official list, we wouldn't be having these discussions.
5. Star Wars is a continuously expanding lore and new information can retcon or put some parts of old information in question.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yoda makes it clear that he's conflicted over his former padawan and doesn't fully want to kill him. This has nothing to do with his combative ability. He's a Jedi, not a Sith, lol.
HINT: Passivity = reduced effectiveness

Originally posted by Master Han
This has nothing to do with his power/combative ability...
Power is not an issue; decision-making and resultant course of action is.

Analogy: If Yoda had gone all-out over Dooku with his Force abilities on Geonosis, their was a good chance for him to overcome the Sith Lord. Point is about maintaining the pressure.

Originally posted by Master Han
And we all know that Vitiate's combat performances reflect brilliant tactical intelligence, right? Would you hold that mark against him in "top sith"?
Vitiate is not passive and tactically inept.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL...no? Yoda is the most powerful light sider up until his time. He's more powerful than the Hero. He's more powerful than Revan. He's more powerful than Nomi Sunrider. He's more powerful than Satele Shan. Why is this so difficult for you to accept?
Your assumption is not correct;

SWTCE promotes Yoda as the "most powerful practitioner of the light." It doesn't confirms Luke to be stronger then Yoda so timeline based argument is moot. In addition, accolades earned by characters in SWTCE are valid for the information contained in it. Star Wars lore have significantly expanded since and this requires Yoda's relative position to be re-evaluated.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes. Ergo, he is the strongest.

1. Luke lives after Yoda's time.
2. Luke has been confirmed to have greater potential than Palpatine.
See above! Its not as if authors are unaware of these things.

Originally posted by Master Han
Speculation, speculation, speculation. How does any of this establish that the Hero is more powerful than Yoda? You're facing an uphill battle in which you must produce a sufficient quantity of evidence to override authorial fiat.
HoT had (powerful) Jedi Master level abilities during his tenure as Padawan; imagine his power progression since then. I think I may need to develop a diagram of his power progression.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yoda did not have many years left in him by ESB.
I understand.

Originally posted by Master Han
ROFLAMO - your utter inability to understand basic diction is comedic gold. Read this sentence again:

Your reply has no relevance to it whatsoever. You simply restate the very point I had already addressed and demonstrated to be invalid.
You are not getting the point; the point is about understanding the ways of the Force.

HoT, Revan and Meetra managed to overcome the influence of environment of Dromund Kaas with their Force Mastery aspects. Yoda, Luke, Katarn, Ben and several more did not demonstrate this ability. This reveals that the latter Jedi may have failed in the paths that HoT, Revan and Meetra and they don't deserve as much hype as they have received.

Originally posted by Based
Translation: If a source is hyping a character not from the TOR era it's not acceptable.
BS! Give me valid justification of ranking Luke over Yoda. Accolades wise, Luke doesn't gets this position.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

In contrast, look at Mace! Now this is a Jedi who knows how to make the best of his abilities and is very effective in combat situations accordingly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

HINT: Passivity = reduced effectiveness

Power is not an issue; decision-making and resultant course of action is.

Analogy: If Yoda had gone all-out over Dooku with his Force abilities on Geonosis, their was a good chance for him to overcome the Sith Lord. Point is about maintaining the pressure.

Vitiate is not passive and tactically inept.

You do realize that Sidious probably could have overpowered Mace in the same way if not for his back up right?

Yoda with those 3 Council Members would have destroyed Sidious.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realize that Sidious probably could have overpowered Mace in the same way if not for his back up right?

Yoda with those 3 Council Members would have destroyed Sidious.
Keeping in mind the passivity or tactical ineptness of Yoda, I doubt that he could make difference in the setting involving Mace. Do you recall how easily Sidious overpowered Yoda in the opening phase of their encounter?

In-fact, Mace attempted to save Fisto but the latter still fell like fodder. Those 3 Jedi Masters would be non-factor to Sidious in any setting.

Also, some sources imply that Mace legitimately overcame Sidious. Yoda also had his chance and lost.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Mace had a vaapad super-amp, which probably put him at equal with sidious and yoda, and plus yoda didnt really lose to sidious until he started using his force abilities, in which yoda displayed a very impressive aptitude with tutaminis (srry if i misspelled that)

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Keeping in mind the passivity or tactical ineptness of Yoda, I doubt that he could make difference in the setting involving Mace. Do you recall how easily Sidious overpowered Yoda in the opening phase of their encounter?

In-fact, Mace attempted to save Fisto but the latter still fell like fodder. Those 3 Jedi Masters would be non-factor to Sidious in any setting.

Also, some sources imply that Mace legitimately overcame Sidious. Yoda also had his chance and lost.

Mace did legitimately overcome Sidious, but in a context specific scenario.

That scenario being Sidious had to waste the first crucial seconds of the fight killing the the Council Memebers. He went on to drive Mace back for another 20 seconds after this occurred.

Had those Masters not been there, then not only would that have rapidly increased Sidious's chances of winning the Saber fight in the first 30 seconds, but if you add in a good Force attack at the beginning then I would say Sidious would have taken a large majority against Mace in a one on one all out.

Now with Yoda there instead of Mace, those first crucial seconds of blitzing those Masters would have surely cost Sidious the fight.

We can't just ignore circumstances of the fights in question.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
BS! Give me valid justification of ranking Luke over Yoda.

laughing

Do you have short term memory loss? I just gave you a plethora of justifications on the very subject.

Q99

Originally posted by Master Han

Mind you, the whole muntuur stones is highly inconsistent with demonstrated canon evidence of Yoda lifting the equivalent of far more than five stones. wink

I think it's a combination of weight *and* multi-tasking.

Lifting two stones is much harder than lifting one twice-as-big stone. Yoda's predecessor could handle more than oldYoda, telling she's incredibly good at TK at least, though he's likely more well-rounded.

ares834

Originally posted by Based
Translation: If a source is hyping a character not from the TOR era it's not acceptable.

laughing out loud

Q99

Originally posted by Master Han
Is Cade particularly powerful?

Or are you referring to accomplishments?

Cade's very powerful. Early in the comic when he hadn't really used the force for 7 years and was rusty, he pulled an old starship out of a swamp and tossed it far as a projectile.

He's also the first person who managed to use the force to draw people back from death (and the second learned it from him).

And here's more of his TK- he's at the center of a giant explosion that destroyed the base he was in and force-barriers it, walking out unharmed while carrying someone.

Allankles

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Luke should be first, and yoda second. i guess you could put the hero at third (though he barely edges mace windu) windu 4th, probably barsen'thor 5th, possibly nomi sunrider, then it might be interchangeable with katarn and revan, 9 might be kyp durron, and ten could be cade skywalker

I don't consider Cade a great Jedi. Great force user but he was as far from the Jedi ideal as it gets without going full on darkside. Can't believe I forgot Durron, would add him to my list of notables.

ares834

To be fair, Cade is a better Jedi than Revan who fell to the dark side twice.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

btw, who is stronger, kyle katarn or prime revan? (sabers, force, etc.)

Master Han

^Katarn has better lightsaber feats/accolades, ditto to Revan with the Force. I'd give the "prodigal knight" the edge overall, since he's apparently more powerful than Nihilus, and put Vitiate on his ass while on a dark side nexus. I mean, as vague as some accolades may appear, that Revan is widely revered and even worshiped thousands of years after his death has to mean something.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

true, but when vitiate was 100% serious, revan got wrecked

The_Tempest

He got wrecked only because he stupidly opted to try to arm wrestle Vitiate's volts barehanded.

The_Tempest

Advent raised this point some years ago.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

mhm

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

anyway, how powerful does that make kyle, exactly?

The_Tempest

Very.

But like another prodigy (Bane), his apparently unnatural learning rate doesn't preclude the fact that he was surpassed by others.

There's a wonderful lesson to be learned from this. Kyle went on to be surpassed definitely by Luke and Caedus and almost certainly Kyp.

We shouldn't assume that these allegedly unnatural prodigies (Bane, Vitiate, etc.) go on to surpass people with less impressive resumes (Caedus, Kyp).

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

but those 3 all had mege-force potential, i believe kyp's was stated to be = to luke's

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

my editted version of top 10 jedi is:

Luke
Yoda
Hero
Mace
Kyle/barsen'thor
kyle/barsen'thor
prime revan
kyp durron
nomi sunrider
cade skywalker

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

oh no, of course not. factor in that kyle did this with little training, and that jerec was drawing power from the VotJ...

Master Han

True...so where does that put him?

Intuitively, I'd cite Dooku as the upper limit.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

now blatant assumptions aren't usually my thing, but kyle in his PRIME may be a bit above dooku, idk tho, this is speculation. he's definitely not far behind, if at all behind, prime revan

Q99

Originally posted by Master Han
...as impressive as this may be, it's difficult to place him amongst the upper tiers because we really have no idea how powerful Jerec and the other dark jedi are. That they can use unorthodox styles and were trained by Sidious doesn't necessarily make them The Big Shit.

Yes, it should be noted that Sidious was holding out on him, withholding the best Sith training.

Jerec *wanted* to be Sidious's Sith Apprentice, but wasn't given the sith secrets reserved for them yet.

That said, he was very strong for a dark Jedi.

NewGuy01

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Revan
4. Nomi (Perhaps she should be lower?)
5. Satele
6. Hero
7. Barsen'thor
8. Mace (Perhaps he should be above 6?)
9. Starkiller
10. Cade or Kyle

Didn't include Kyp 'cause I don't know enough about him.

Nephthys

Considering Satele herself calls the Hero of Tython the orders greatest champion, I disagree with her being above him/her.

Agreed on Kyp.

V Oh yeah. The Hero beat Vitiate while Revan got owned by him, so I'd switch those two also.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

simply put: revan DEFINITELY isnt number 3. barsen and hero are ahead, and windu is ahead. kyp is arguably ahead of him as well, gonna look at some feats tho.

here's some kyp feats, as mentioned earlier by master han

1. He manipulates dorvin basals with greater ease than Luke did (at least on Skywalker's first try)
2. He uses a destroyed freighter as a telekinetic weapon in Dark Journey (props to anyone who could find this...)
3. He develops the method of hurling shadow bombs via telekinesis.
4. IIRC, Luke himself suggested that Kyp Durron could become more powerful than "all of us".

also he was the only person outside of the skywalker/solo families to be the next dark lord

NewGuy01

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering Satele herself calls the Hero of Tython the orders greatest champion, I disagree with her being above him/her.

Agreed on Kyp.

V Oh yeah. The Hero beat Vitiate while Revan got owned by him, so I'd switch those two also.

1. Satele is more well rounded, and she may have said that because she was no longer in her prime. She at one point stalemated Baras in a duel, who matched the Hero's counterpart in saber combat. She's not outmatched by the Hero in a contest of sabers--But she does outmatch him with both TK, and light saber-catchery. She just seems better based on her abilities. Also--Wasn't there a statement saying Satele was the Emperor's greatest foe?

2. I'm glad.

3. Revan didn't exactly get owned, I mean, he needs some props for putting Vitiate on his ass twice, then telepathically battling Vitiate, which caused the delay of Sith/Jedi war for 3 centuries. The Hero, on the other hand, had won--But remember that he fought the voice--Who I would bet has lesser Force Potential than Vitiate's true body, and thus less to work with. He was also somewhat weakened, even if he had recovery time when the Hero saved Kira Carsen. Just as Satele does, Revan just seems to be more well rounded and more versatile in his abilities. My mind could be changed, though.

Any comment on my placing of Nomi?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

where is it ever stated that baras was a master of saber combat?

edit: yeah, nomi shouldn't be that high either

NewGuy01

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
simply put: revan DEFINITELY isnt number 3. barsen and hero are ahead, and windu is ahead. kyp is arguably ahead of him as well, gonna look at some feats tho.

here's some kyp feats, as mentioned earlier by master han

1. He manipulates dorvin basals with greater ease than Luke did (at least on Skywalker's first try)
2. He uses a destroyed freighter as a telekinetic weapon in Dark Journey (props to anyone who could find this...)
3. He develops the method of hurling shadow bombs via telekinesis.
4. IIRC, Luke himself suggested that Kyp Durron could become more powerful than "all of us".

also he was the only person outside of the skywalker/solo families to be the next dark lord

How large is said freighter, what is a shadow bomb, and how is this applicable in combat? Also, does he have saberfeats?

Master Han

Imma copy Neph:

NewGuy01

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
where is it ever stated that baras was a master of saber combat?

edit: yeah, nomi shouldn't be that high either

1. So now matching the Sith Warrior class in saber combat doesn't make him a lightsaber master relevant to the likes of the Jedi Knight class? embarrasment

2. But she's so beastly! Hard to properly rank, as I don't own TOTJ.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How large is said freighter, what is a shadow bomb, and how is this applicable in combat? Also, does he have saberfeats?

he has hurled these shadow bombs, which were quite like proton torpedoes, at yuuzhan vong starships. the freighter was said to be large i believe. about saber feats, idk, but after one week, he surpassed all of the students at the praxeum, and luke considered him frighteningly powerful.

edit: does baras have any saber feats? and im prty sure the wrath beats baras in both of the saber duels, despite that baras was being amped by sel makor, and that this wasnt the case when he fought satele, and that when satele fought baras, it may not have been prime baras.

ares834

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. So now matching the Sith Warrior class in saber combat doesn't make him a lightsaber master relevant to the likes of the Jedi Knight class? embarrasment

Or he focuses on force powers rather than saber combat.

Anyway, no reason to believe the Sith Warrior=Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
She at one point stalemated Baras in a duel, who matched the Hero's counterpart in saber combat.

Nah. I'm assuming you are talking about their "duel" in ToP. Yes?

All they really did was clash sabers once. It wasn't much of a duel.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

hmm, ok. so if kyp durron's saber skills rivaled katarn's, the list goes something like:

Luke
Yoda/Kyp durron (although yoda most likely takes it)
yoda/kyp durron
hero of tython
windu
barsen'thor
prime revan/kyle
prime revan/kyle
nomi sunrider
cade skywalker

Master Han

^it's suggested, not confirmed

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

well, the fact that luke considers kyp an expert duelist, and is even compared with the likes of katarn, it suggests some form of saber mastery.

ares834

When Revan fought him he was also on a dark side nexus as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Secondly, a darkside choice has the Hero overpowering Vitiate in TK and killing him.

And at that point in time, Vitiate was already defeated and cut down having just received a fatal blow.

Nephthys

Maybe.

Dude was still powerful enough to collapse the temple. Or at least the room.

Based

Nephthys

Because Satele is the Grandmaster. That doesn't make her the better warrior.

ares834

Yep.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe.

Dude was still powerful enough to collapse the temple. Or at least the room.

True. Although, he seems to be a spirit when he does that. Certainly in the dark side version he is.

NewGuy01

Sorry for double-post, but where does Celeste Mourne fit into all of this? Does her connection to Karness Muur make her not count, or something?

Nephthys

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Matching Baras is impressive, and her losing to Malgus was before her prime. And what evidence doesn't suggest Wrath=Hero? At the very least, all 4 SWTOR orbitals are on the same level. Didn't the Warrior class also beat Vitiate's voice?

Also, Ares, Baras was a lightsaber specialist. Not a force beast.

Well Ares claims that they only really crossed blades like once, so maybe she doesn't really match Baras.

The Hero beat Vitiate. no expression

And the Voice the Wrath beat was possessed and had Vitiate fighting for control of it and trying to let the Wrath kill him. Plus he'd been fighting Sel-Makor for ages.

Erm, no not really. Baras is listed in the Notable Sith Inquisitor section. Als note that Baras doesn't even have his lightsaber out in the first part of the duel and likewise has it clipped at the end.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
2. Didnt Plagues state Vitiate's spirit survived, and returned to its original body, and Vitiate only had only truly died a few centuries before the events of "Plagues"? I'm pretty sure it was a voice, dude. Also--Revan fought a non-weakened Vitiate on the same Nexus. :/

Revan>Hero is still quite arguable.

Da fuq? Did he? Someone get me a quote here if so, because wat?

It wasn't the same nexus. The Dark Temple is a much more potent nexus than Dromund Kaas, if Kaas even really is one. No-one is ever mentioned as being amped on Kaas or the darkside affecting anything.

Not really. The Heroes above Revan quite solidly.

ares834

Here is the full "duel":

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16613501_Old_republic_1_0013.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16613502_Old_republic_1_0014.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. The Heroes above Revan quite solidly.

sneer

Nephthys

Good God that art is painful.

She is. She beat the opponent Revan lost to. Its a pretty clear comparison between the two.

Master Han

But...Vitiate was weakened. And did HoT not have a team?

Nephthys

As I said even if he was weakened, he was on an extremely potent darkside nexus which would boost him and weaken the Hero and the Hero has to fight through Kaas City and the Imperial Guard at the Dark Temple to get to him, so its not as if HoT was walking into that fight whistling either. Besides which before the fight he can replenish his energy if you go to save one of your allies.

Just T7, your astromech.

Master Han

Yet the same issues apply to Revan.

Q99

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sorry for double-post, but where does Celeste Mourne fit into all of this? Does her connection to Karness Muur make her not count, or something?

Well, on her own she's very skilled, possibly in the top 10 of her era, but not top-10 of all time material. Once she's got a century under her belt and can draw upon the talisman, she's even stronger, but still, probably *near* the all-time chart rather than in it.

It's only when she gives Muur free reign that we're really talking top-list levels, and of course that's not very Jedi at that point.

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said even if he was weakened, he was on an extremely potent darkside nexus which would boost him and weaken the Hero and the Hero has to fight through Kaas City and the Imperial Guard at the Dark Temple to get to him, so its not as if HoT was walking into that fight whistling either. Besides which before the fight he can replenish his energy if you go to save one of your allies.

Just T7, your astromech.

When Vitate beats Revan, Vitate is not only at full power but has access to a dark side nexus as well. And it's not like Revan was operating at peak performance either. He had just woken up from a drug induced stupor that he had been in for over a year a mere day before his battle with Vitiate.

Nephthys

Not the same nexus.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yet the same issues apply to Revan.

Lawl, Dromund Kaas isn't as strong a nexus as the Dark Temple and Revan only had to fight through one Imperial Guard while the HoT has to fight through an entire temple of them. Plus Vitiate has 300 years on the version Revan fought.

And the HoT doesn't let her trusty astromech get disintegrated. estahuh

Master Han

So, Revan has to face:

Full power Vitiate
Drug induced stupor
Years of captivity
Scourge's betrayal

While HoT has to face:

More powerful at baseline Vitiate (but a weakened one)
Less companions
Stronger DS nexus
More security

So, as NewGuy01 said, it's certainly arguable.

Nephthys

Theres no indication Revan was hindered by the drugs, especially since Bane learned the ability to purge his system of toxins from Revan. Nor is it said he was diminished by his years of captivity.

It isn't comparable because the HoT won. She wasn't even out of breath.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no indication Revan was hindered by the drugs, especially since Bane learned the ability to purge his system of toxins from Revan.

Obviously these drugs surpassed his anti-toxin abilities, or else he would have escaped long ago.

Yeah, but it's a reasonable and logical inference.

Since it's safe to conclude that Revan fought a stronger Vitiate, all things considered, in a lesser state, it certainly is very comparable.

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nor is it said he was diminished by his years of captivity.

erm

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't comparable because the HoT won. She wasn't even out of breath.

Except we can't state that the version of Vitate she faced was as powerful as the one Revan faced.

Admittedly, I haven't played through the full JK storyline, but wasn't that the whole reason he attacked at that time was due to the fact that Vitiate was weakened?

Nephthys

If he was weakened you'd think the text would note that at some point. Revan was in captivity for 300 years til TOR yet when released is none the worse for wear.

Originally posted by Master Han
Obviously these drugs surpassed his anti-toxin abilities, or else he would have escaped long ago.

Not after he'd escaped and regained his Force powers. If he can catch Nyriss' lightning, I don't see why he couldn't purge his system of the drugs.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, but it's a reasonable and logical inference.

Perhaps.

Originally posted by Master Han
Since it's safe to conclude that Revan fought a stronger Vitiate, all things considered, in a lesser state, it certainly is very comparable.

It isn't safe to conclude that. Vitiate recovers if you go lightside and save your friends, had 300 years extra growth and he was on a much stronger nexus and the HoT went into the fight weaker than Revan did (Vitiate specifically says you've depleted your energy).

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he was weakened you'd think the text would note that at some point. Revan was in captivity for 300 years til TOR yet when released is none the worse for wear.

Why?

A novel doesn't have to point every single intricacy concerning power levels. He hasn't had any practice for well over a year. Logically he is going to be out of shape and practice.

The same holds true for his reemergence in TOR.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate recovers if you go lightside and save your friends, had 300 years extra growth and he was on a much stronger nexus and the HoT went into the fight weaker than Revan did (Vitiate specifically says you've depleted your energy).

Have a quote where it says Vitiate recovered?

Anyway here is the codex entry which confirms Vitiate is weakened for those interested: "You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all."

Nephthys

ELOMNBoqBGo

At 7.54 Scourge says Vitiate will recover quickly and the Hero can't afford to go save anyone. At 27.45 the confrontation with Vitiate occurs and he says the Hero dissipated his energy saving Kira earlier in the video. Note the lightning and clones at the start of the fight. If you didn't go to save Kira he doesn't use them:

ynDPjD-5pxg

4.40

Edit: Whoops! Top video fixed.

ares834

First, Scourge merely points out he will quickly regain back his power not that he will regain all of it back.

Furthermore, in the DS vid we see Vitiate say that the JK has gained little in sacrificing his/her friends.

And finally, according to this, Vitiate is still weakened when confronted in the LS ending.

Nephthys

I didn't say he did, but he did regain at least some of it, so he was not as weakened as you're making out. Plus Scourge says that he'll gather his power with time.

Yet we see it affected him, as he isn't able to attack the Hero with lightning nor conjure his clones at the start.

That doesn't indicate he was still weakened. Thats just the text you get at the start of the mission. It doesn't need to apply throughout. Plus its only detailing that you've learned he's weakened. And it also notes it temporary. I'm not saying he was fully recovered, but theres nothing indicating he wasn't.

ares834

Sure there is. Check that link I posted.

Click choice 2 (which is the light side option where he saves Kira) and choose 4, it says:

"You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all. While your other companions risk their lives to draw off the Imperial forces, you and T7 need to confront the Emperor himself."

So, yeah, Vitiate is still weakened after saving Kira.

Nephthys

Nah. Its just detailing what you've learned in that first line. The second line is the only one that actually changes.

Nephthys

Interesting things said in these Quest descriptions:

'The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you. Now you must decide his ultimate fate.'

The text seems to imply that it was the HoT's power that was the deciding fctor and that he was 'no match' for her.

ares834

Well, yeah. The HoT beat Vitiate. So ultimately he wasn't a match for her.

NewGuy01

Alright, I've revised a bit.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Kyp Durron
4. Revan/Hero of Tython
5. Revan/Hero of Tython
6. Nomi Sunrider
7. Mace Windu/Satele Shan
8. Mace Windu/Satele Shan
9. The Barsen'thor
10. Kyle Katarn(Should Jaina/Ben.S/Mara be above him?)

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

i wouldn't put nomi at 6, as most (if not all) the people below her would defeat her in combat.

NewGuy01

Okay, I am seriously doubting that Katarn is going to beat Nomi in combat, but whatever.

Anyways, perhaps she's slightly lacking in run-of-the-mill one on one combat powers, but she makes up for it in out-of-the-box powers like Battle Meditation and Mind Tricks which were exceedingly powerful, and she became the strongest Jedi in the Order in a very, very short time, having wielded her saber like a master upon the second time using it. She's just beastly through-and-through. Perhaps she should be ranked lower, but I have a hard time putting her under Satele.

Ill probably lower her at some point, I'm just minorly obsessed with the character at the moment.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Okay, I am seriously doubting that Katarn is going to beat Nomi in combat, but whatever.

Anyways, perhaps she's slightly lacking in run-of-the-mill one on one combat powers, but she makes up for it in out-of-the-box powers like Battle Meditation and Mind Tricks which were exceedingly powerful, and she became the strongest Jedi in the Order in a very, very short time, having wielded her saber like a master upon the second time using it. She's just beastly through-and-through. Perhaps she should be ranked lower, but I have a hard time putting her under Satele.

Ill probably lower her at some point, I'm just minorly obsessed with the character at the moment.

hence why i said most

windu/barsen/ maybe satele are probably above nomi

no worries, there's was a point where i was minorly obsessed with durron/plagueis smile

NewGuy01

I'm also minorly obsessed with Caedus. Must know more about him.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm also minorly obsessed with Caedus. Must know more about him.

i still maintain that caedus was one of the top 5 most powerful sith in existence

NewGuy01

I agree with that sentiment.

Nephthys

Caedus isn't even in my Top 10. estahuh

NewGuy01

so you think 10+ Sith are beating the crap out of Luke?

Nephthys

Yes, if Luke fights as recklessly and as badly as he did in that fight. I've said before that I don't count giving Luke hell as impressive given how inconsistent he is. One moment he's pwning Jacen with the Force, the next they're fighting somewhat equally.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
Caedus isn't even in my Top 10. estahuh

I've beaten your ass down every time you've tried making this point. Caedus has been confirmed to be above Vader in power - that you don't take well to his character shouldn't affect your evaluation of his abilities.

Nephthys

Confirmed by a blurb. BFD. Frankly Vader has far superior showings than Caedus, and I rate him above his grandson.

Master Han

Vader got his ass whipped by RotJ Luke. Caedus gave an infinitely more powerful one hell. Your dismissing this feat does not render it invalid. Caedus also knows shatterpoint, has Force lightning, and a random list of esoteric Force abilities. He's been placed above Kyle Katarn as a lightsaber duelist. Oh, and he's canonically more powerful than Vader...again. laughing

Nephthys

Vader wasn't using his extremely powerful Force attacks against Luke so suck it. Plus Luke beat him only when he went berserk.

So did Lumiya.

All Jedi know Shatterpoint, Caedus' Lightning is featless as I recall and his esoteric abilities won't help him when Vaders Force shitting on his face. What good are they in combat. Hint: Not a ****ing lot princess!

Vader is also above Katarn in lightsabers so who caaaaaaares?

No he isn't you repulsive fishstick. Seriously, has any woman ever looked at you without immediately turning skyward and erupting like a vomit volcano, answer me that? Yeah, I ****ing thought not.

Darth Nox twerks him to death, thats how easy the fight would be.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

youe ignorance and hate for caedus is misplaced and stupid.

you are forever lost.

Nephthys

Apart from his fight with Luke and Katarn and his oneness with the Force, name one good feat he's done.

(no-one else answer)

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader wasn't using his extremely powerful Force attacks against Luke so suck it.

So you admit Caedus >>>>>>>> Vader with a blade?

Lumiya had the advantage of an unorthodox weapon. And the one time Luke fought her on anything remotely resembling even ground, she ended up without her head.

Not to the extent of shattering beskar armor with a tap.

Force shitting on the face of someone explicitly more powerful than he? With massively superior bladework to boot?

LOL, no. Katarn is a saber prodigy who would certainly trash RotJ Luke.

laughing

Sure.

I love how all your downplayings of Caedus require you to put the "aside from" disclaimer on his most notable feats.

ares834

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, no. Katarn is a saber prodigy who would certainly trash RotJ Luke.

Based on what?

I keep seeing people claiming Katarn is this super amazing bad ass saber fighter and I have yet to see it.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

could have killed jaina, despite having ONE ARM, and Jaina also being amped by Luke.

Nephthys

Jaina sucks and got her ass kicked by Mandalorians.

Originally posted by Master Han
So you admit Caedus >>>>>>>> Vader with a blade?

No. Caedus would get reamed by pissed off RotJ Luke too.

Originally posted by Master Han
Lumiya had the advantage of an unorthodox weapon. And the one time Luke fought her on anything remotely resembling even ground, she ended up without her head.

I love how all your wankings of Luke require you to put the "aside from" disclaimer on his most notable ****ups.

Originally posted by Master Han
Not to the extent of shattering beskar armor with a tap.

Why not? Shatterpoint says they can all do it, why have you arbitrarily decided they cannot do that with enough time and concentration?

Also, Caedus has never used it in combat or mentioned seeing Shatterpoints to help him in a duel or ****all that puts him close to Windu's level with it.

Originally posted by Master Han
Force shitting on the face of someone explicitly more powerful than he? With massively superior bladework to boot?

Yeah right. It is the opposite of those things which is the thing that is true.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, no. Katarn is a saber prodigy who would certainly trash RotJ Luke.

Oh really? Name one thing that Katarns done to warrant that. What impressive feats with a lightsaber does he possess?

Originally posted by Master Han
laughing

To be honest though, I am somewhat impressed that you've managed to drag your hands away from numerous sets of mutated genitals that pepper the ghastly husk you dare call a body in order to type a response. You have a sliver of my respect, arse-nibbler.

Originally posted by Master Han
Sure.

I love how all your downplayings of Caedus require you to put the "aside from" disclaimer on his most notable feats.

Seriously though, Nox could probably beat Caedus imo.