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The strike team of the 4 Empire protagonists from Swtor show up to take Vitiate down, Malgus style. Does Vitiate fall as his 'successor' did, or does he have the balls to walk away?

All characters at the end of their storylines.

Darth Nox
Emperor's Wrath (well, I guess not in this case, heh)
Cipher 9
The Grand Champion of the Great Hunt

vs

Emperor Vitiate in all his power. Assumption that this team defeated Malgus.

Takes place on Vitiates Fortress, in his throne room.

This is just the Kreia debate over again. If they can counter the mind domination then Nox might even solo. If not they die in 1 second.

Nox isn't solo'ing.

The Wrath's counterpart beat Vitiate. This is just overkill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox isn't solo'ing against actual top tier combatants such as Sidious or Luke but will do just fine against Vitiate.

Fixed.

Originally posted by Based
Fixed.

ROFLAMO, dude everybody knows Vitiate's above weaksauce PT combatants. He even defeated a nameless sith lord when he was 12.

Hilarious, but I'm still not seeing how Nox can beat Vitiate.

He can't, naturally. Vitiate absorbed the powers of hundreds of random sith lords according to Nyriss's speculation, gathered from legends, myths and other fail-proof research avenues.

Actually it was 8000 and its confirmed in SWTORE.

Oh, right. Encyclopedias certainly are infallible sources of information. Unless if they claim Palpatine is the strongest sith.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JQKajLiHso8/UZFsJcqHXtI/AAAAAAAAAYc/5yW7q09UG58/s1600/Bitter+Pill.jpg

Two of these should clear up that butthurt over Vitiates majesty.

No need for pills, your (evil and genocidal) object of worship can easily break my mind and command me to his bidding. Hence why he does this to Satele Shan and the Supreme Chancellor. That war was over quickly.

Can we just do the thread without having a big whinging fit over Vitiate leading to another dumb argument, please?

Strike team barely.

Originally posted by Master Han
No need for pills, your (evil and genocidal) object of worship can easily break my mind and command me to his bidding. Hence why he does this to Satele Shan and the Supreme Chancellor. That war was over quickly.



I believe Neph has admitted Vitiate is an irredeemably crappy character. Why he is so drawn to him, then, I'll never know.

Though I am seeing a trend here.

Speaking of Vitiate, I wonder if later sources will say that Sidious was inspired by Vitiate and his empire and modeled it after his.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Speaking of Vitiate, I wonder if later sources will say that Sidious was inspired by Vitiate and his empire and modeled it after his.

Given that Vitiate is a carbon copy of Sidious right down to the goddamn wardrobe, I'm pretty sure that's unavoidable.

Though why Sidious would seek inspiration from a guy who is, in some respects, the greatest failure in a long line of Sith failures is... bewildering.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


I believe Neph has admitted Vitiate is an irredeemably crappy character. Why he is so drawn to him, then, I'll never know.

Though I am seeing a trend here.

Perhaps I, gasp, actually think he's powerful!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps I, gasp, actually think he's powerful!



That doesn't explain the fetishistic zeal with which you assume your task. I mean, I actually think Luke and Vader are pretty powerful... but don't prance from thread to endless thread wanking to them.

You seem to think Palpatine and Yoda are pretty powerful, but don't wank to them either.

The ones you are known to wank above all others are Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate. I conclude from this that you are entranced by one-dimensional failures.

and non Pt-era beings

Originally posted by The_Tempest

The ones you are known to wank above all others are Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate. I conclude from this that you are entranced by one-dimensional failures.

Nice one!

That, too.

It just feels good, you know? But I wouldn't call Bane a failure. If it weren't for him Sidious would not have been as powerful. Well, he still would have been just not as strong as he became without Sith teachings.

Originally posted by The Merchant
It just feels good, you know? But I wouldn't call Bane a failure. If it weren't for him Sidious would not have been as powerful. Well, he still would have been just not as strong as he became without Sith teachings.

Yes, Bane's ultimate accomplishment was being a stepping stone for an infinitely greater Sith Lord. I'd lump him alongside Vader and Dooku, if not for the fact that they directly factored in to Sidious's success whereas Bane only did so distantly.

nihilus and vitiate were complete failures tho, especially vitiate, who plots the destruction of the republic for around 1,000 years, and still fails, while palpatine, through subtle manipulations, did it in FAR less time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The ones you are known to wank above all others are Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate. I conclude from this that you are entranced by one-dimensional failures.

Hmm, let's test your theory.

Neph, do you play TOR?

Originally posted by The Merchant
It just feels good, you know? But I wouldn't call Bane a failure. If it weren't for him Sidious would not have been as powerful. Well, he still would have been just not as strong as he became without Sith teachings.

Agreed. But Nihilus was.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
nihilus and vitiate were complete failures tho, especially vitiate, who plots the destruction of the republic for around 1,000 years, and still fails, while palpatine, through subtle manipulations, did it in FAR less time.



Nihilus is a terrible character from start to finish. The whole Force wound concept is trite and the lolz force om nom is unforgivably cartoonish no matter who wields it (Palpatine included). Worse, he's only a Sith because Avellone lacked the balls or wherewithal to understand that an omnicidal eldrith creature wouldn't give a shit about Jedi or Sith and would feed indiscriminately.

Vitiate is... well... yes, a colossal failure. 1400 years to master the Force and the galaxy and fails spectacularly in both regards. And this is after devouring the essence of 8 thousand other Sith Lords.

Meanwhile Palpatine skips along and conquers the galaxy, defeats the Jedi and the Republic, and demonstrates a comparable command of the Force in... what? Decades?

Good God.

Just watch, someone will write that Sidious is the reincarnation of Vitiate. That way, everyone is happy!

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Nihilus is a terrible character from start to finish. The whole Force wound concept is trite and the lolz force om nom is unforgivably cartoonish no matter who wields it (Palpatine included). Worse, he's only a Sith because Avellone lacked the balls or wherewithal to understand that an omnicidal eldrith creature wouldn't give a shit about Jedi or Sith and would feed indiscriminately.

Vitiate is... well... yes, a colossal failure. 1400 years to master the Force and the galaxy and fails spectacularly in both regards. And this is after devouring the essence of 8 thousand other Sith Lords.

Meanwhile Palpatine skips along and conquers the galaxy, defeats the Jedi and the Republic, and demonstrates a comparable command of the Force in... what? Decades?

Good God.

That is why Palpatine is and always will be, the greatest Sithlord and my favorite character. Nihilus is just terrible and Vitiate is a Sidious rip off.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Just watch, someone will write that Sidious is the reincarnation of Vitiate. That way, everyone is happy!

Unless Sidious happened to experience a spontaneous and exponential multiplication of IQ points before his reincarnation from Vitiate, I rather doubt it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
and demonstrates a comparable command of the Force

superior, you mean

What's the obsession with the technique Drain in general? Seems like every time someone is using it it's always either them being a huge monster with it like Nihilus, or they are Gods in the Force in general.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
superior, you mean

I'm being conservative. Or generous. I am now inviting the liberal segment of KMC to sniff disdainfully at my clever appropriation of what may appear to many as antonyms as synonyms.

But yeah, I'd say superior as well.

Originally posted by The Merchant
What's the obsession with the technique Drain in general? Seems like every time someone is using it it's always either them being a huge monster with it like Nihilus, or they are Gods in the Force in general.

Worse is the fact that Avellone failed to recognize how cheap and retarded his vision of the Force drain really is... until the Exile had to square off with Nihilus, in which case Nihilus can't drain the Exile because the script says so.

Yeah, yeah, I understand the ostensible reason for its failure. "The Exile was Nihilus's polar opposite and so drains don't work lolz" but it's horribly thought out.

doesnt kreia even say, "There is no strength in the hunger he possesses." or something along those lines?

Originally posted by The_Tempest


That doesn't explain the fetishistic zeal with which you assume your task. I mean, I actually think Luke and Vader are pretty powerful... but don't prance from thread to endless thread wanking to them.

You seem to think Palpatine and Yoda are pretty powerful, but don't wank to them either.

The ones you are known to wank above all others are Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate. I conclude from this that you are entranced by one-dimensional failures.

Palpatines power is already widely accepted. The only place where my opinion differs from the majority of people is in his relation to other powerful characters, where is held above almost all of them. In that case the only thing I have to argue is in their favor against him. Same for Yoda for the most part. The only real contenting opinion is Legend and I've told him I disagree with him on those matters and theres my reluctance to get into things with him in general.

I hold them in higher regard than other do, and thus am forced to defend my position on the matter. Also after so long arguing for them I will admit to being a bit invested in the arguments and characters.

Also I actually kinda like Nihilus and Bane.

Originally posted by Master Han
Hmm, let's test your theory.

Neph, do you play TOR?

Yes. I'm playing it right now in fact.

Originally posted by The Merchant
What's the obsession with the technique Drain in general? Seems like every time someone is using it it's always either them being a huge monster with it like Nihilus, or they are Gods in the Force in general.

You mean aside from the fact that obviously absorbing the power of others increases your own leading to exponential growth?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
doesnt kreia even say, "There is no strength in the hunger he possesses." or something along those lines?

I'm so glad you brought this up.

?v=RLoWb8KXvVo

At 5:05, Kreia waxes poetic about the vast magnitude of Nihilus's power. Then, in the same conversation (the 6:20), rebukes the Exile for thinking Nihilus to be powerful.

Major contradiction in a minute's time? This is what happens when some think that purple prose and loquacious writing constitutes good writing.

Or maybe Kreia's trying too hard to be a contrarian b1tch.

what level, and what server (i've got a badass lvl 55 guardian)

I thought the whole wounds in the Force idea was dumb in general. When it comes down to it, it's just trying to make a more evolz Dark side.

the concept isnt what bothers me, it's the force-goddery people tend to associate with it

Originally posted by The Merchant
I thought the whole wounds in the Force idea was dumb in general. When it comes down to it, it's just trying to make a more evolz Dark side.

And it is horribly explained.

I don't have the video on hand, but the confrontation with the Masters on Dantooine is a prime example.

One of the Masters says you can't feel the Force and then, in the same conversation, says you can feel the Force... but you can't feel yourself.

facepalm

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
what level, and what server (i've got a badass lvl 55 guardian)

Huge nerd time:

The Ebon Hawk-

Lv 55 Jedi Guardian
Lv 42 Jedi Shadow
Lv 40 Gunslinger
Lv 38 Vanguard

The Red Eclipse-

Lv 52 Operative
Lv 40 Sith Sorcerer
Lv 40 Mercenary
Lv 16 Sith Juggernaut

I have my Republic and Empire characters on different servers. Different continents in fact.

^all of them together would die in five seconds to Yoda, FYI.

what level gear you got with ur 55 guardian? (as in like, basic gear, elite gear, ultimate gear, etc.)

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean aside from the fact that obviously absorbing the power of others increases your own leading to exponential growth?

Drain ranges from healing your wounds to turning you into a Force spirit, which is weird in general TBH, to gaining more energy like you said, making your life span longer, and now having the potential to make you a God. Hmm, no other techniques get any other mention and to me is just a lazy way to write your villain to be more like the ultimate evil.

Originally posted by Master Han
^all of them together would die in five seconds to Yoda, FYI.

but what if the HoT has kell dragon gear?

I don't do PvP so I'm just in some nice looking oranges with blue Makeb mods.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Drain ranges from healing your wounds to turning you into a Force spirit, which is weird in general TBH, to gaining more energy like you said, making your life span longer, and now having the potential to make you a God. Hmm, no other techniques get any other mention and to me is just a lazy way to write your villain to be more like the ultimate evil.

The idea that Force drain increases your power exponentially only serves to make Vitiate even more embarrassing.

I just did a crapload of pve to get a bunch of elite gear/some ultimate gear.

Edit: If Nihilus's drain literally made him more powerful, he'd have instantaneously whooped the exile (i dont care how weakened he was) due to wielding that kind of power, you'd think he'd at least be competent with mind rape/lightning/TK

Or at the very least, "whooped" the Forceless mook Canderous. TK'ing fleets, my ass.



Why's that?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And it is horribly explained.

I don't have the video on hand, but the confrontation with the Masters on Dantooine is a prime example.

One of the Masters says you can't feel the Force and then, in the same conversation, says you can feel the Force... but you can't feel yourself.

facepalm

Which is why KOTOR 2 is pretty much ignored nowadays. Kinda hard to top beings who can kill the Force. I hope this gets retconned somehow, even if it's a crappy explanation. Like a really strong Dark Side nexus. It kinda did with the Revan novel, didn't it?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Why's that?

Er, because I layed into him extremely hard, being intentionally as shitty as I could to him, like, a day before his dad died?

Also I just don't really see much point in debating him plus we're sort-of allies on the Vitiate front, even if I shake my head at some of the stuff he says about Vitiate, Sidious and Yoda.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I just did a crapload of pve to get a bunch of elite gear/some ultimate gear.

Edit: If Nihilus's drain literally made him more powerful, he'd have instantaneously whooped the exile (i dont care how weakened he was) due to wielding that kind of power, you'd think he'd at least be competent with mind rape/lightning/TK

He did, remember? He pwns you as soon as you walk up to him.

because legend can be a biased hypocrite

Originally posted by The Merchant
Which is why KOTOR 2 is pretty much ignored nowadays. Kinda hard to top beings who can kill the Force. I hope this gets retconned somehow, even if it's a crappy explanation. Like a really strong Dark Side nexus. It kinda did with the Revan novel, didn't it?

I think KotOR 2 is ignored because it is crippled by existential issues that are not limited to merely its very, very poor interpretation of the Force.

See my Improve KotOR 2 thread in the EU section for how that shitty game could have been so much better had Avellone not been a lazy hack with a thesaurus.

Oh what, Legends' dad died?

Seems like KotOR II emulated The Matrix Revolutions: sophistic philosophy + "deep" plot holes mysteries = profit!

Of course, I haven't actually played the game, so screw the bandwagon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Avellone.... a lazy hack

You have no idea how hard my eye is twitching right now.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Oh what, Legends' dad died?

Yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, because I layed into him extremely hard, being intentionally as shitty as I could to him, like, a day before his dad died?

And you are responsible for that tragedy?

Do you believe that your rebukes will begin purging his kin?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I just don't really see much point in debating him plus we're sort-of allies on the Vitiate front, even if I shake my head at some of the stuff he says about Vitiate, Sidious and Yoda.

'Some of the stuff'? lol

Originally posted by Master Han
Seems like KotOR II emulated The Matrix Revolutions: sophistic philosophy + "deep" plot holes mysteries = profit!

Of course, I haven't actually played the game, so screw the bandwagon.

Since that would be the Hipster Bandwagon, yes, screw it. KotOR 2 is massively overrated, adored only by skinny-jean & thick black rimmed glasses wearing, Starbucks drinking, cigarette-smoking, effeminate losers.

vitiate being superior to Luke due to being an "immortal" is heavily bias tbh, despite his claims of just "giving credit where it's due." and due to the fact that many of the people whom side with palps > vit are considered "PT fanboys"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you are responsible for that tragedy?

Do you believe that your rebukes will begin purging his kin?

Don't care, I still feel like a shitty tool and won't debate him like that again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't care, I still feel like a shitty tool and won't debate him like that again.

It actually speaks very poorly of you if the only way you will voluntarily restrain yourself is upon the death of a close relative.

You're kinda a butthole, bro. 131

Ok, since I feel like this might be the time to ask. I've heard claims after Vitiate did his ritual on Nathema he no longer needed to do rituals to replicate that feat and could do it to any planets, but decided to do a ritual that was Galaxy wide.

There's absolutely no tension or drama either way, since we all know he'll fail.

hasn't been proven, has never performed such a feat

Originally posted by The Merchant
Ok, since I feel like this might be the time to ask. I've heard claims after Vitiate did his ritual on Nathema he no longer needed to do rituals to replicate that feat and could do it to any planets, but decided to do a ritual that was Galaxy wide.

Never been confirmed to my knowledge.

The only thing that remotely implies it is Revan's remark that Vitiate is stronger now than he was at Nathema, suggesting he may not be bound to the same limitations (time and other Sith Lords).

If he can't then there goes my biggest reason of why he's numero 2 on my list.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It actually speaks very poorly of you if the only way you will voluntarily restrain yourself is upon the death of a close relative.

You're kinda a butthole, bro. 131

You're right, I'm nothing but worthless garbage. http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/negativeman-55f.png

Originally posted by The Merchant
Ok, since I feel like this might be the time to ask. I've heard claims after Vitiate did his ritual on Nathema he no longer needed to do rituals to replicate that feat and could do it to any planets, but decided to do a ritual that was Galaxy wide.

Theres no indication he could do it without a ritual. But yes, he was planning to consume the entire galaxy.

If he had that kind of power, he could just destroy one extra planet, just to make sure no one would challenge his supremacy, further noting his imcompetence

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
vitiate being superior to Luke due to being an "immortal" is heavily bias tbh, despite his claims of just "giving credit where it's due." and due to the fact that many of the people whom side with palps > vit are considered "PT fanboys"

Mhhmmm. I maintain that Luke > Palpatine > (past RotS) Yoda > Vitiate. And I'm right, obviously.

EDIT: I might start feeling sorry for Neph, and SWL. Please don't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're right, I'm nothing but worthless garbage. http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/negativeman-55f.png

Yes you are, you dirty ****.

Now take off your pants.

Careful, Tempest. I should warn you about blood borne pathogens.

Also, would Nathema just be left alone? It's basically a huge wound in the Force worse than Malachor V, you'd think a huge hole in the Force wouldn't be noticed and be destroyed for safety.

Originally posted by Master Han
Careful, Tempest. I should warn you about blood borne pathogens.

I'll use the pull-out method. Works every time. biscuits

So is anyone going to actually respond to the thread?

strike team wins

I say the team wins but barely.

You have 4 pages worth of responses, moron.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You have 4 pages worth of responses, moron.

Your not responding to the thread, you're just shitting on Vitiate. >:[


Also, I think Vitiate should still be able to taken them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So is anyone going to actually respond to the thread?

Context is needed. What resources do they have available to them? Under what circumstances do they encounter him? Does Vitiate have prep time? etc.

We don't really know how powerful the Emperor's Wrath is at his peak. For all we know, he may be equal to the Hero.

of course you do

Edit: even based off of what YOU said neph, wrath is around 80% of RotJ sidious, whom vitiate is at MOST equal to, if not inferior. if nox is close to or equal to the wrath, then logically, they win

Originally posted by Master Han
Context is needed. What resources do they have available to them? Under what circumstances do they encounter him? Does Vitiate have prep time? etc.

We don't really know how powerful the Emperor's Wrath is at his peak. For all we know, he may be equal to the Hero.

No prep for Vitiate since it would be a massacre otherwise. The team is at full health and fully stocked on supplies (maximum rockets and shit for the Champ). Same as the Malgus fight, they walk in and start fighting.

Good question. Some people have argued that the Wrath is indeed the Heroes equal. Its a thing I don't know much about tbh, but I highly doubt the Wrath is that close to Vitiate himself considering he serves the guy.

Edit: 20% is a big deal bro. estahuh

The five Jedi strike team lost to Vitiate, with their silly "stand there and try to get him to surrender" tactic hardly helping turn the tide in their favor. If they bullrush Vitiate with guns blazing, flank him, and force him on the defensive with a combination of ranged firepower and saber rattling...they could win.

DE Sidious is a better matchup than vitiate, although Sid would prolly just force storm them

I specifically wanted to see if Vitiate could have fared better than Malgus did.

Originally posted by Master Han
The five Jedi strike team lost to Vitiate, with their silly "stand there and try to get him to surrender" tactic hardly helping turn the tide in their favor. If they bullrush Vitiate with guns blazing, flank him, and force him on the defensive with a combination of ranged firepower and saber rattling...they could win.

Hmm interesting.

Although, that Malgus is able to Force lightning them to the ground (1.05) and throw them around at the start of his battle (2.17).....

4j02LqLq2gw

^against DE Sidious, everyone excluding the Wrath dies within five seconds of engagement. Then the player slams his keyboards in mad frustration.

Personally I think Vitiate can win after a tough fight. He's definitely much stronger than any of them and he does have that feat of whooping Tol Braga's strike team. Obviously Nox and the Wrath are both extremely powerful badasses, but Cipher 9 doesn't really have much in the way of combat feats and while the Grand Champ is one of the best Non-Force users in the mythos, he's out of his league.

Malgus was tossing this team around, even if he lost in the end. And Vitiate is a step above Malgus.

Malgus was also able to toss around the Republic strike team and one of those combatants was able to take on Vitate with an astromech droid.

Team takes it. Anyone of these fighters have a chance of soloing, together there WAY to much.

ugh3 Dude, really?

Also, reading up on Sel-Makor and the incident where the Wrath has to free him, I highly doubt the Voice would be near his peak, since Vitiate was actively resisting Sel-Makor and trying to let the Wrath kill him, and they had been locked in a battle of wills and power for some time.

Also I was wrong about Vitiate receiving power from Sel-Makor. It was actually Darth Baras who Sel-Makor amped. My bad. Looks good for Baras though. I guess theres a reason they keep going on about him being invincible in the Warrior campaign.

I'm actually going to agree with Nephthys here. While the team can pull off a victory with the proper tactics and under the right circumstances, in a "fair" confrontation, only the Wrath and Nox are relevant here, and if Vitiate can take out the five "most powerful" Jedi barring Shan and the HoT with casual ease...he's not falling to two of the not-necessarily most powerful sith.

First link just leads to this page.

Dammit. Thanks for the quick heads up. Fixed.

Ah cool thanks. The only problem I have with this theory is that Vitiate is supposed to be a Red Sith. Not some wrinkled old man...

Edit: Ah, they say he may have been killed before.

Yeah, thats the only real wrinkle. Though as they discuss in the thread it is said that Vitiate had become a completely different creature than what he was born as "His power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy." and in the podcast the guy talks about how it may not be the first time Vitiate has died when the Knight kills him.

Sith failed to defeat/capture the Republic in history prior to Sidious due to infighting/betrayals. Jedi and Republic forces simply took advantage of these occurrences.

By nature, Sith philosophy promotes competition and quest for supreme power.

Sith still came close to wiping out the Jedi Order and conquering the Republic several times in history.

1. Great Sith War*
2. Jedi Civil War**
3. Sith Triumvirate***
4. Great galactic war****

*Sith failed due because Ludo Kressh turned on Naga Sadow.

**Sith failed because Malak turned on Revan.

***Sith failed due to infighting between the Triumvirate; Traya prepared Meetra to end the Triumvirate.

****Sith failed because Vitiate was betrayed. The seeds of this betrayal were sowed by Nyriss actually which led to Scourge plotting against Vitiate. Scourge's defection to Republic proved to be valuable for Jedi and Republic; he is the worst thing ever happen to the reconstituted Sith Empire.

---

Sith then had to change tactics. They had to stop raising armies and attempt to conquer the galaxy and purge the Jedi in this fashion. They had to infiltrate the Republic from within and plant the seeds of its transformation. They had to wait for the Jedi Order to grow out of touch and loose their edge over ways of the Force. They had to fuel the corruption within the Republic and use this development to its advantage. Eventually a time came when Sith were in the position to put their grand plans in motion and Sidious fit the bill, thanks to preparation and guidance of Plagueis.

Its not like as if Sidious magically became the most successful Sith Lord in history. Lot of developments led to his rise and paved way for his success; the Sith that preceded him deserve credit as well.

People can learn a lot about these matters from following sources:-

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
- Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
- Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
- Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two
- Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

It is vital to consult these sources to learn about failures and successes of Sith and associated reasons.

To be honest, Vitiate's influence over galactic events and accomplishments are massively underestimated.

Vitiate;

1. Saved Sith from extinction in the aftermath of Great Sith War.
2. Reconstituted the ancient Sith Empire in regions unknown to enemies of Sith and shaped in to a highly disciplined civilization.
3. Granted ample time to the reconstituted Sith Empire to grow and become powerful enough to challenge and defeat any kind of superpower in the galaxy.
4. Worked on a secondary plan to eliminate all kinds of galactic threats with the power of the dark side, should his Empire fail.
5. Infiltrated the Jedi Order and Republic with his puppets to learn about their form and function prior to ordering the invasion.

But Vitiate's plans flopped due to same reasons; infighting/betrayals. It shall be noted that Vitiate went to extreme lengths to succeed in his plans (SWTORE offers excellent explanation of tactical brilliance and power of Vitiate) but The Force have its own will and their is no permanent for infighting/betrayals.

In-fact, Palpatine also fell due to betrayals; first from Vader and second from Luke.

So I don't see the reason to declare Sith preceding Sidious as failures just because they grew up in different circumstances then Sidious and made decisions accordingly. In-fact, it can be argued that Sidious is the luckiest Sith Lord in galactic history.

Nah.

although vitiate was said to be weakened, bolstering vitiate's standing while decreasing the hero's

Vitiate was on a dark side nexus and HOT's powers are weakened if he elects to save Kira.

Vitiate even calls him out on it.

Dude is a total failure and I'll never forget Janus's indignation when he saw the cutscene.

would you say HoT > yoda?

No.

Would you say HoT > ROTS Skywalker?

Also it looks like the Hero of Tython is likely to be canonically darkside, through a combination of 3 factors:

1. Scourges Vision: "Jedi, shining with the Force, lined up to destroy him. All were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet. Then out of the shadows, one Jedi emerged to cut the Emperor down. That Jedi wore your face.

In my vision I took a crown from the Emperors head. It ended when you held his power in your hands."

This vision implies that the Hero of Tython will take Vitiates power and Empire for her own.

2. Scourge's comment: "Many know your name. Some whisper it, others shout it. I alone recognise what it means. You're strong and touched by darkness. This is unexpected. An advantage? Possibly." When he first sees you Scourge comments that you posses darkness inside you, regardless of your actual alignment.

3. The Star Cabal: Most damning in terms of actual canon, at the end of the Imperial Agent story, in their meeting the Star Cabal say that 'Tol Braga is dead'. Since they're the most knowledgeable beings in the GALAXY at that point in terms of events its safe to trust their word. This heavily implies a darkside Knight, since the lightside version sends him back to Tython, whereas the darkside versions are to either kill him or mindfvck him and tell him to go kill as many Sith as he can before being killed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also it looks like the Hero of Tython is likely to be canonically darkside, through a combination of 3 factors:

1. Scourges Vision: "Jedi, shining with the Force, lined up to destroy him. All were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet. Then out of the shadows, one Jedi emerged to cut the Emperor down. That Jedi wore your face.

In my vision I took a crown from the Emperors head. It ended when you held his power in your hands."

This vision implies that the Hero of Tython will take Vitiates power and Empire for her own.

2. Scourge's comment: "Many know your name. Some whisper it, others shout it. I alone recognise what it means. You're strong and touched by darkness. This is unexpected. An advantage? Possibly." When he first sees you Scourge comments that you posses darkness inside you, regardless of your actual alignment.

3. The Star Cabal: Most damning in terms of actual canon, at the end of the Imperial Agent story, in their meeting the Star Cabal say that 'Tol Braga is dead'. Since they're the most knowledgeable beings in the GALAXY at that point in terms of events its safe to trust their word. This heavily implies a darkside Knight, since the lightside version sends him back to Tython, whereas the darkside versions are to either kill him or mindfvck him and tell him to go kill as many Sith as he can before being killed.

I doubt the Jedi Knight is dark side, mate. Scourge clearly has his own agenda when dealing with HoT and is likely trying to put dreams of grandeur into his head. The Star Cabal thing can be easily addressed by the timing of the Agent Storyline.

The Agent storyline takes place before the Sith Warrior story ends because the power plays of Baras, Vowrawn and Thanaton are mentioned as if they are still in motion during their Corellia arc. The JK story ends after the SW's defeat of Baras because you get he communique on the attack of Dromond Kaas and the death of the Emperor after you strike him down. So during this time, Tol Braga would have likely vanished for months aboard the Emperor's station. The Order itself believed the JK and that strike team to be dead until the Knight broke free of the Emperor's control.

More about Vitiate; he is also responsible for starting wars that led to collapse of the Jedi Order and a crippled Republic:

Mandalorian Wars*
Jedi Civil War**
Sith Triumvirate***

*Vitiate influenced Mandalore (The Ultimate) to attack the Republic.

**Vitiate influenced Revan and Malak to attack the Republic.

***This is the product of Jedi Civil War.

Then Revan made his move and delayed the invasion of the Republic by the reconstituted Sith Empire; this development paved way for the Republic to regain its strength and reform its defensive and offensive structures.

All of this information is in SWTORE. People should buy this book and also consult the sources which I have listed in my previous response.

@Neph

That is very interesting revelation. HoT might turn out to be like Revan perhaps.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Ok, since I feel like this might be the time to ask. I've heard claims after Vitiate did his ritual on Nathema he no longer needed to do rituals to replicate that feat and could do it to any planets, but decided to do a ritual that was Galaxy wide.
Yes, this is implied in the Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan. Scourge, Revan and Meetra reached a consensus on this assumption but Revan cautioned that Vitiate will not attempt this kind of action on Dromund Kaas after learning about the betrayal of the Dark Council because this would be a major blow to his hardwork concerning his Empire.

The aforementioned characters hinted that he may destroy planet after planet with his mastery of the dark side, should he desire. However, this was strategy was not feasible because of following reasons:

1. Risk factor (adversaries would multiply; Republic would notice)
2. Vitiate's nihilist nature would not be well-received even by his own followers (Vitiate attempted to conceal his Medriaas based history for a reason)
3. Destroying planet after planet would be a long and tedious process.

Therefore, Vitiate forged a master plan; to unleash dark side power on galactic scale to accomplish his ultimate objectives.

Keep in mind that SWTORE notes that Vitiate's capacity as a Force-user vastly increased after his first transformation. Keep in mind that Vitiate was already supremely strong in the dark side prior to his transformation.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
hasn't been proven, has never performed such a feat
Plot device.

Though I have come to know that he planned to destroy Voss due to Sel-Makor.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I doubt the Jedi Knight is dark side, mate. Scourge clearly has his own agenda when dealing with HoT and is likely trying to put dreams of grandeur into his head. The Star Cabal thing can be easily addressed by the timing of the Agent Storyline.

The Agent storyline takes place before the Sith Warrior story ends because the power plays of Baras, Vowrawn and Thanaton are mentioned as if they are still in motion during their Corellia arc. The JK story ends after the SW's defeat of Baras because you get he communique on the attack of Dromond Kaas and the death of the Emperor after you strike him down. So during this time, Tol Braga would have likely vanished for months aboard the Emperor's station. The Order itself believed the JK and that strike team to be dead until the Knight broke free of the Emperor's control.

Don't ruin my fanon for me! :<

Scourge may be lying, but it still seems unlikely that he'd start talking about your inner darkness as soon as he meets you if he is. I just don't see it.

Theres no way the Star Cabal would be deluded into thinking Braga was dead considering he and the rest of the Strike Team have been running around throughout Act III, especially Tol Braga on Corellia which is the center of their plan. Besides, they're talking about it like its a recent development. The timeline stuff is always screwy. Even if the finale of the Knight is after the Agent, that doesn't mean her beating Tol Braga is.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
vitiate being superior to Luke due to being an "immortal" is heavily bias tbh, despite his claims of just "giving credit where it's due." and due to the fact that many of the people whom side with palps > vit are considered "PT fanboys"
This is not the case. The cause of contention is that Vitiate is not an underling in comparison to these individuals.

Vitiate have;

1. Immortal condition (can switch from body to body)
2. Galactic reach with his Force abilities
3. Planet-busting capabilities
4. Most impressive combat record
5. Extraordinarily lethal offensive powers in his arsenal of talents

Point is that Vitiate does have sufficient credentials to hold his own against Luke and Sidious (DE). To be more precise, defeat Luke and stalemate Sidious (DE).

---

As far as this contest is concerned, Vitiate is on a whole new level in comparison to Malgus. Keep in mind that the former managed to rule supreme over a Sith Empire for over a millennium for some solid reasons. Vitiate may just mind-hax the Imperial Strike Team into submission.

"Most impressive combat record"

Hmmm, what do you mean by that?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
More about Vitiate; he is also responsible for starting wars that led to collapse of the Jedi Order and a crippled Republic:


He still failed in the end. He could not defeat the Republic after 1300 years of scheming. Sidious toppled it in...what, 40?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Its not like as if Sidious magically became the most successful Sith Lord in history. Lot of developments led to his rise and paved way for his success; the Sith that preceded him deserve credit as well.


He nonetheless succeeded with fewer resources, against greater odds, in lesser time. Vitiate also had the element of surprise, millenia of planning, and his various "children" or whatever. And he failed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Immortal condition (can switch from body to body)


Irrelevant in vs. debate.



Luke and Palpatine are among the numerous Jedi with "galactic reach" Force abilities. One could argue that Palpatine and Plagueis's unbalancing of the Force was universal. Again, you continue to parrot irrelevant filler.



With rituals. Sidious can do it just by channeling his hate.



LOL, no? He almost dies on three occasions in his fight against Revan's posse. His tactics were abysmal.



Like Force storms?



No, we've been through this before. Firstly, Luke > Sidious. Secondly, Vitiate has done NOTHING to match Palpatine's Force storms. He doesn't compare tp TPM Sidious, let alone the one that can ravage planets and rip apart entire starfleets.



More red herrings from you; how long Vitiate ruled his empire isn't remotely relevant to the point. By that logic, the Old Republic would defeat the Galactic Empire in a war, because it's been around longer...

Originally posted by Master Han
He still failed in the end. He could not defeat the Republic after 1300 years of scheming. Sidious toppled it in...what, 40?
Infighting/betrayals have led to downfall of even greatest Sith Lords in galactic history (Sidious included).

Vitiate didn't schemed to take over Republic for over 1300 years; do not make absurd claims. He had plans to attack the Republic but he waited for lot of reasons.

Also, you cannot understand the difference between the circumstances surrounding Sidious and Vitiate?

About Sidious:-

1. Sidious grew up in the Republic; Plagueis deserves credit for recognizing Sidious's potential in the dark side and making him his apprentice.
2. Republic had disbanded its military forces after the (presumed) elimination of Sith.
3. Republic became corrupted during a span of thousand years of peace as corporations grew powerful and organized crimes spread; Sidious took advantage of this corruption by participating in politics under guidance of Plagueis.
4. Jedi Order grew out of touch of its natural ways during a span of thousands of years of peace. On top of this, the unbalancing of The Force by joint actions/rituals of Plagueis and Sidious further clouded the judgment of the Jedi. These developments led to disillusionment of Dooku and his eventual fall to the dark side.
5. Some systems of the Republic began to revolt due to wide-spread corruption and neglect and this made it possible for Sidious to support the separatists movement and sow seeds of civil war within the Republic. However, Republic needed its own army as well, so Sidious ordered the creation of a Republic military made of clones (real humans wouldn't need to die) to counter the threat of separatists.

---

Sidious was an EVIL GENIUS for sure but he had proper guidance, luck and fortune on his side as well. Due to combination of various factors, Sidious managed to transform the Republic in to a galactic Sith Empire. However, he also fell in a span of few decades afterwards.

In comparison to Sidious, Vitiate was entirely self-made; he didn't needed politics and tutorship of another Sith Lord to plan his rise to great power. In-fact, Vitiate was also a natural leader; established a highly advanced civilization of his own, managed it well, kept it safe and shaped it in to a superpower.

Vitiate challenged a well-prepared Republic actually and could still won, if some of his own followers had not betrayed him. Jadus, Sajar and Baras rebelled unfortunately. However, Vitiate had a back-up plan as well, should his Empire fail to destroy the Republic. But thanks to Scourge, this plan also failed. Nonetheless, the Empire of Vitiate was disciplined enough to prevent its breakup in his absence and continue its war effort against the Republic to destroy it. History tells us that the Republic actually won but this was not due to incompetence of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
He nonetheless succeeded with fewer resources, against greater odds, in lesser time. Vitiate also had the element of surprise, millenia of planning, and his various "children" or whatever. And he failed.
Thanks to disastrous consequences of infighting/betrayals. Try to look at the whole picture instead of finding excuses to belittle Vitiate's accomplishments.

Keep in mind that Sidious also failed against what he described as "insignificant rebellion."

Originally posted by Master Han
Irrelevant in vs. debate.
For you

Originally posted by Master Han
Luke and Palpatine are among the numerous Jedi with "galactic reach" Force abilities. One could argue that Palpatine and Plagueis's unbalancing of the Force was universal. Again, you continue to parrot irrelevant filler.
Sidious and Vitiate are in the higher echelons of individuals with galactic reach with their Force abilities.

Also, can you list some feats of Luke of galactic scale?

Originally posted by Master Han
With rituals. Sidious can do it just by channeling his hate.
It is hinted in canon sources that Vitiate could pull off Nathema like feat with his own power. Wake-up and read all of my responses in this thread. I don't like to repeat same thing again and again.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, no? He almost dies on three occasions in his fight against Revan's posse. His tactics were abysmal.
Correction: only 1 time but he would have taken Revan with him as well. Also, Vitiate cannot really die until his essence is contained.

Originally posted by Master Han
Like Force storms?
Sith Sorcery based talents/powers.

In-fact, Vitiate possessed all of the prerequisites to summon a Force Storm as well. Should he have learned about this technique, he would have wielded it like a PRO as well.

Also, you better worry about potential retcon of DE lore by upcoming movies. If this happens, I will have the last laugh.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, we've been through this before. Firstly, Luke > Sidious. Secondly, Vitiate has done NOTHING to match Palpatine's Force storms. He doesn't compare tp TPM Sidious, let alone the one that can ravage planets and rip apart entire starfleets.
Luke > Sidious according to fanon? I am not convinced.

I pointed out to you that even The Father and Abeloth have done nothing to match Palpatine's Force Storms. So I am not sure why you feel the need to highlight this ability of Sidious in discussions involving Vitiate. If Force Storm talent is the only criteria to determine power of an individual, then Sidious have no competition in the mythos.

Also, if you think of Vitiate to be beneath even TPM Sidious, you are deluding yourself. Do not expect me to accept your subjective assessments such as these without valid reasons.

Originally posted by Master Han
More red herrings from you; how long Vitiate ruled his empire isn't remotely relevant to the point. By that logic, the Old Republic would defeat the Galactic Empire in a war, because it's been around longer...
A Sith cannot rule over a Sith Empire without being the STRONGEST individual in it. Ruling over a Sith Empire for over a millennium is indication of unparalleled power of Vitiate in comparison to others who existed during his time. Malgus attempted to replace Vitiate but failed because he was not comparable to Vitiate in his understanding of the dark side. This doesn't means that Malgus was not very powerful but that Vitiate was his superior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious was an EVIL GENIUS

Pfft. haermm

You can be so cheesy sometimes. Actually, I have a game called that. Is good.

^^^

I like that game too. It is from ex-developers of the excellent game franchise Dungeon Keeper.

Does everyone else get timed out of KMC now? Thanks to that worthless feature, I caught some of SWL's wretched opinion.

It's like exposure to radiation or something. I fear for my life.

No. I just get the computer to remember my password so I never have to sign in at all.

I've been timed out on my PC for months and my iPhone since I've had it.

Lol. Sucks to be you!

Yes, it is terribly inconvenient to be so extraordinarily intelligent, prodigiously endowed, and imbued with flawless lovemaking skill.

I am truly alone in this world.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Infighting/betrayals have led to downfall of even greatest Sith Lords in galactic history (Sidious included).

Vitiate didn't schemed to take over Republic for over 1300 years; do not make absurd claims. He had plans to attack the Republic but he waited for lot of reasons.


Yes, he waited, and plotted for the opportune moment to strike. And he failed.



Good for him.



No. It had disbanded its army, but it still possessed a navy powerful enough to make Nute Gunray shit his pants, whereas Palpatine started with no military whatsoever.



If you were a betting man, you'd bet on the thousand-year-old dictator with his own sizable empire and military, not on the guy trying to take advantage of a corrupt government.



Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced the Force through their own actions; it hardly counts as a circumstance in their favor.



Yes, he took advantage of opportune circumstances. Vitiate had plenty more. The Jedi Order was arguably closer to extinction than it had ever been in KOTOR II, for example, yet Vitiate had not developed an intelligence network of any repute, and so failed to capitalize on it.



At least he created one at all; Vitiate failed.



Help from Ragnos aside, Vitiate had significantly more time and resources at his disposal than Palpatine did in the Prequel trilogy, and he still failed..



That he could not detect Scourge's treachery after 3 centuries speaks for itself.



LOL, the fact that he failed is proof enough; the fault is on only him if he failed to adequately anticipate betrayals in an empire full of sith.



Yes, but he still succeeded in conquering the galaxy. Vitiate failed. What part of this is so difficult for you to understand?



No, for anyone who realizes that vs. debates compare combat ability, not how many factoids SWL can parrot.



Vader can choke people from light years away. Yoda, Obi Wan, ESB Luke, and practically every Jedi can sense events and even reach out to one another across the galaxy, even while in hyperspace.



He calls all Jedi across the galaxy to convene in a meeting.



"hinted" is why I don't bother to "wake-up", buddy. If Vitiate could do that, the war would already be over.



He barely detected the droid's flamethrower, and had Revan moved swiftly could have died when he was knocked on his ass. Never mind the fact that Scourge's visions told him they stood a good chance of defeating him. Compare this to Sidious, against whom three of the greatest Jedi in history died in seconds.

And Sidious also knows essence transfer.



"should he have"? Too bad for you that "sith sorcery based talents/powers" doesn't compare to "ripping starfleets out of the sky, ravaging planets and teleporting beings light years".

Force storms >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate. Deal with it.



Getting desperate here, are we?



According to fanon? Why the f*ck do you keep parroting this laughably retarded excuse of an argument? Luke > Sidious according to canon, just like how Sidious > Vitiate according to canon. The ironic part of your reply is that you are the one inventing a fanon where such canon sources don't exist. You are trying to argue against the evidence, not me.



False dilemmas are wonderful, aren't they? Abeloth has done plenty to rival Palpatine's Force storms. Vitiate has not. But I'm curious as to this line of reasoning; are you suggesting that my comparing actual feats and capabilities is not the optimal method of evaluating characters? Would you rather I use your method of making shit up and vaguely extrapolating from myths and legends?



Subjective assessments? It's canon, buddy. The ironic part is that your dismissal of these canons sources is where the subjectivity comes into play. So I suggest you stop arguing against yourself, as you do not only here, but every time you whine about my using "hyperbole", while you obsessively cling to Vitiate's "unleashing the full power of the dark side" in "its purest forms", while feigning indignation when someone calls you out on your quotes' utter irrelevance.




More red herrings from you; nobody denies that Vitiate is the most powerful individual in his empire. How does this put him above Palpatine's level? Oh...no, it doesn't.

"Oooh I can't wait til de is retconned then victory shall be miiiiine!"

Lmao.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, it is terribly inconvenient to be so extraordinarily intelligent, prodigiously endowed, and imbued with flawless lovemaking skill.

I am truly alone in this world.

"No-one can understand the torment I feel. The torment of being an extremely-attractive Star Wars nerd lusted after by pretty much every neck-beard I meet. Mine is indeed a tormented existence. Filled with torment. Torment and geeks. Geeks and their man-boobs. They torment me so."

I don't get it, Neph. I just don't get it.

He's initiating a mating ritual. Remember, it goes in the vagina, not the butt. Sodomy is a big no-no. rotjvader will have blasphemers' heads.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also, you better worry about potential retcon of DE lore by upcoming movies. If this happens, I will have the last laugh.





If there's absolutely irreconcilable differences between the planned Sequels and the Post ROTJ EU, then the Post-ROTJ world will likely diverge into 2 different timelines, the movie-verse and the comic/novel-verse. Because I doubt all those novels and comics will just be completely written out of canon and stop being published.

But my guess is the films will steel the odd bit here and there from the EU, and the EU will try very hard after the release of the films to make it all fit together. - That's what's always happened with all the contradictions that have come about from the PT and TCW Animation.

But either way of all the Post-ROTJ work, DE actually has a very low chance of being retconned, simply because the Sequels will take place like 30 years later anyway.


But it's pretty funny you plan to come back in the next 3-9 years to have the last laugh.

Btw- If Luke is shown and stated to be the most powerful Jedi ever, and by a significant margin, in the sequels then I will come back and have the last laugh

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, he waited, and plotted for the opportune moment to strike. And he failed.
Sidious failed as well.

Originally posted by Master Han
Good for him.
And what did you learn?

Originally posted by Master Han
No. It had disbanded its army, but it still possessed a navy powerful enough to make Nute Gunray shit his pants, whereas Palpatine started with no military whatsoever.
Show me proof of this navy.

Originally posted by Master Han
If you were a betting man, you'd bet on the thousand-year-old dictator with his own sizable empire and military, not on the guy trying to take advantage of a corrupt government.
Your point is?

Originally posted by Master Han
Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced the Force through their own actions; it hardly counts as a circumstance in their favor.
Do you have an IQ of a 2 year old?

I stated that this event clouded the judgment of the Jedi Order; prior to this, the Order was already in the process of loosing its touch with its natural ways. Try to understand a point instead of picking and choosing between the lines for argument sake.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, he took advantage of opportune circumstances. Vitiate had plenty more. The Jedi Order was arguably closer to extinction than it had ever been in KOTOR II, for example, yet Vitiate had not developed an intelligence network of any repute, and so failed to capitalize on it.
Revan prevented Vitiate from capitalizing on this opportunity.

Originally posted by Master Han
At least he created one at all; Vitiate failed.
And Vitiate did not create a Sith Empire, correct?

Originally posted by Master Han
Help from Ragnos aside, Vitiate had significantly more time and resources at his disposal than Palpatine did in the Prequel trilogy, and he still failed..
Ragnos is a non-factor in Vitiate's story.

Also, Sidious was a honorable member of the Republic itself and took advantage of its weaknesses under guidance-ship of his mentor and circumstances around him. Vitiate was outside the Republic and challenged a well-prepared one in a war. No external power have managed to conquer the Republic in a war in galactic history; Sidious would not have succeeded in this manner as well.

Try to understand the differences in stories of Sidious and Vitiate before you pout about failures or the latter.

Originally posted by Master Han
That he could not detect Scourge's treachery after 3 centuries speaks for itself.
And what about Sidious's failure to determine Vader's treachery?

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, the fact that he failed is proof enough; the fault is on only him if he failed to adequately anticipate betrayals in an empire full of sith.
Vitiate have effectively dealt with lot of betrayals during his time. However, wars can create situations in which things can go out of hand. No individual is infallible.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but he still succeeded in conquering the galaxy. Vitiate failed. What part of this is so difficult for you to understand?
I am not disputing Sidious's success but it is important to understand the differences between stories of Sidious and Vitiate. You cannot use Vitiate's failure to conquer the Republic as an excuse to boast about supposed superiority of Sidious since Sidious haven't been tested in ways like Vitiate have been. Understand, you BLIND Sidious wanker?

Originally posted by Master Han
No, for anyone who realizes that vs. debates compare combat ability, not how many factoids SWL can parrot.
Discussions can go in any direction, depending upon the comments made in the threads. This thread have nothing to do with Sidious but it turned in to a Vitiate bashing and failure fest. Is this my fault too?

Originally posted by Master Han
Vader can choke people from light years away. Yoda, Obi Wan, ESB Luke, and practically every Jedi can sense events and even reach out to one another across the galaxy, even while in hyperspace.

He calls all Jedi across the galaxy to convene in a meeting.
Therefore my statement:

Sidious and Vitiate are in the higher echelons of individuals with galactic reach with their Force abilities.

Originally posted by Master Han
"hinted" is why I don't bother to "wake-up", buddy. If Vitiate could do that, the war would already be over.
War would be over by destroying a planet? How exactly?

Originally posted by Master Han
He barely detected the droid's flamethrower, and had Revan moved swiftly could have died when he was knocked on his ass. Never mind the fact that Scourge's visions told him they stood a good chance of defeating him. Compare this to Sidious, against whom three of the greatest Jedi in history died in seconds.
1. Barely or not, Vitiate still blunted its firepower; indicating that he is good enough to handle some surprises as well.
2. Revan was moving swiftly but Vitiate was not slow either.
3. Scourge's visions included possibilities of defeat of Vitiate but the over-all picture was grim. Therefore, Scourge decided to not take the risk.
4. By his blade; yeah great. And what about Vitiate utterly dominating 4 of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order?

Originally posted by Master Han
And Sidious also knows essence transfer.
I know

Originally posted by Master Han
"should he have"? Too bad for you that "sith sorcery based talents/powers" doesn't compare to "ripping starfleets out of the sky, ravaging planets and teleporting beings light years".

Force storms >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate. Deal with it.
Vitiate could inflict planetary-scale devastation with his Sith Sorcery based talents and this pales in comparison to destructive capabilities of Force Storm?

Originally posted by Master Han
Getting desperate here, are we?
That time is coming for you.

Originally posted by Master Han
According to fanon? Why the f*ck do you keep parroting this laughably retarded excuse of an argument? Luke > Sidious according to canon, just like how Sidious > Vitiate according to canon. The ironic part of your reply is that you are the one inventing a fanon where such canon sources don't exist. You are trying to argue against the evidence, not me.
Proof of Luke > Sidious?

Originally posted by Master Han
False dilemmas are wonderful, aren't they? Abeloth has done plenty to rival Palpatine's Force storms. Vitiate has not. But I'm curious as to this line of reasoning; are you suggesting that my comparing actual feats and capabilities is not the optimal method of evaluating characters? Would you rather I use your method of making shit up and vaguely extrapolating from myths and legends?
Can you list these accomplishments of Abeloth?

And no, it is you who is using Force Storm based argument to boast about Palpatine's supposed superiority over Vitiate. I reminded you that if this is the ONLY method to determine Palpatine's superiority then he is superior to all others.

Originally posted by Master Han
Subjective assessments? It's canon, buddy. The ironic part is that your dismissal of these canons sources is where the subjectivity comes into play. So I suggest you stop arguing against yourself, as you do not only here, but every time you whine about my using "hyperbole", while you obsessively cling to Vitiate's "unleashing the full power of the dark side" in "its purest forms", while feigning indignation when someone calls you out on your quotes' utter irrelevance.
Luceno is not in the position to determine relative position of Vitiate in the grand scheme of things in the mythos. He can wank about Plagueis as much as he likes at personal capacity but he was reluctant to declare Plagueis as most powerful within the story component of the book itself (Which is the most important component of canon writing in a book). Also, if we are to accept his decision then Plagueis > Sidious as well because he included the word "ever" in the affiliated statement he forgot to get published in the backcovers of lot of prints of book of Plagueis.

"Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived."

In-fact, this is a vague statement. What does "who ever lived" is supposed to mean? The correct term is "in history."

Get the memo, you deluded Sidious wanker?

Originally posted by Master Han
More red herrings from you; nobody denies that Vitiate is the most powerful individual in his empire. How does this put him above Palpatine's level? Oh...no, it doesn't.
That statement is relevant for the topic; not Sidious.

Red herring, your @ss.

To be honest, Vitiate was dumb to not attack the Republic after Kotor II even with a suspect Dark Council. The Jedi Order was basically extinct and the Republic was recovering from near-collapse. Furthermore, SWTORE makes it clear that the Kotor-era Republic military was utter dogs bollocks owing to an over-reliance on the Jedi Order. Vitiate would have steamrolled the galaxy in under a year.

However, his plan up to that point was great. Using the Mando's to weaken the Republic and splinter the Jedi was genius and his whole plan was the most successful attack on the Jedi Order in history.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious failed as well.


He succeeded in his goal of conquering the galaxy. He failed in his goal to achieve immortality. Vitiate failed at both.



That you love to parrot irrelevant factoids?



Why do you suppose Gunray was so terrified of the Republic's intervention? Why do you suppose the senate meetings in AotC mention the creation of an army, but never a navy? They already had one. Various EU sources confirm that the Ruusaan Reformation, while disbanding the army, merely scaled down the navy and put it in the hands of the Judicial Department. As of TPM, it was still the most powerful military force in the galaxy by several orders of magnitude.




I thought it would be obvious enough. My point is that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate, yet accomplished more.



How does this nullify the duo's unprecedented feat of unbalancing the Force itself? How does your constant insistence in repeating Sidious's taking advantage of opportune circumstances change the fact that Vitiate had far more?



Because Vitiate had only two people to report on the Republic at that point. He had a vital opportunity to wipe out the Republic and the Jedi, and failed.



Creating an isolated sith empire by hiding from the Jedi and the Republic doesn't compare to actually taking over the galaxy and forming the most powerful and dominant empire that ever existed.



He dubbed him Lord Vitiate.



"and your point is?" nonetheless suggests that you were either too stupid to understand a laughably simpleton analogy, or that you conceded that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate.



He didn't suppose Vader could possibly be moved by compassion. But he was well aware of Vader's dark side intentions, and can even read his thoughts on multiple occasions.



Parroting age old tautologies doesn't change the fact that Palpatine faced longer odds and accomplished more.



Really? Please, feel free to express the times that Vitiate has been "tested" to a greater degree than Sidious, that he overcame primarily through his own skill.



Me, a Sidious wanker? Gideon, Intrepid and plenty of others would disagree with you. I hold that Windu legitimately defeated him, that Yoda was superior to him, and that Luke is above even his DE incarnation. You are the one who insists on blindly standing by your favorite TOR videogame against logic, reason, sanity, canon, and all your other long hated enemies.



No, it's your fault that you try to show off your obsessive database of Vitiate quotes to prove a point that has no connection to said quotes whatosever.

Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate. Sidious is a far superior duelist. Sidious has greater combat feats. Sidious would win in a confrontation.



So you made the argument that Vitiate's Force ability had galactic reach...to prove that he was among the more powerful of those (read: almost everyone) with galactic reach?



Coruscant ring a bell?



Good for him. He still struggled immensely when faced against a dynamic strike team that didn't stand in one place.



LOL, so what? He got knocked on his ass. He was clearly vulnerable.



Don't pull shit out of your ass; it's never stated that the overall situation was "grim", just that the HoT's defeating Vitiate was the most likely possibility.



Mace Windu wasn't on that strike team.



So more of your useless parroting?



Yes, it does. He needs sith sorcery to do that. Sidious can do it by getting angry.



ROFLAMO - so your trump card is to tell us to wait until 2015. so that you'll win the argument?



He defeated him in a duel by having some of his potential unlocked. He certainly would have unlocked said potential by LotF.



Force psychosis, appearing in multiple places at the same time, fooling Luke Skywalker with illusions, shrugging off a Force push powerful enough to "knock a frigate out of orbit", continuing to battle despite having had huge blaster bolts and lightsaber bolts seared into her, melting a city just by getting angry (Palpatine still had to develop a new technique) and, allegedly, having the power to cause galaxy scale destruction, etc.

Nothing Vitiate has ever done compares to Force storms. Deal with it.




Can you not read? I already called you out on your false dilemma. The only characters more powerful than Palpatine have feats to match his, Vitiate does not.



Actually, Sidious seriously ponders in the prologue the possibility that Plagueis was more powerful in the dark side than anyone that had lived before him.



No, he's the most powerful until Sidious himself surpassed him. Just like how Yoda is the most powerful until Luke comes along.



You know, with your constant pandering of irrelevant factoids and continued persistence of absurd double standards, from accusing some statements of "hyperbole" while parroting "full power of the dark side" to complaining about "fanon" with regards to mentions of canonical statements you deny as a result of your own subjective fetishes, I'm this close to putting you on ignore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be honest, Vitiate was dumb to not attack the Republic after Kotor II even with a suspect Dark Council. The Jedi Order was basically extinct and the Republic was recovering from near-collapse. Furthermore, SWTORE makes it clear that the Kotor-era Republic military was utter dogs bollocks owing to an over-reliance on the Jedi Order. Vitiate would have steamrolled the galaxy in under a year.

However, his plan up to that point was great. Using the Mando's to weaken the Republic and splinter the Jedi was genius and his whole plan was the most successful attack on the Jedi Order in history.

Didn't Revan's mental influence stop him from attacking?

Yes. I'd forgotten he was influencing him that early.

Order 66 was the most successful attack against the Jedi, fatass.

Originally posted by Master Han
He succeeded in his goal of conquering the galaxy. He failed in his goal to achieve immortality. Vitiate failed at both.
Sidious didn't need to conquer the galaxy actually. The Republic during his time was the only known galactic power in existence but was fragmented from within. The Republic actually underwent transition from a democratic civilization to dictatorship under leadership of Sidious with overwhelming support from majority of the senators. No amount of fanciful interpretations can mask this fact.

"So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause." (Padme)

In addition, both Sidious and Vitiate had achieved immortality; they could live forever. However, Vitiate was extremely close to achieving invincibility as well but was stopped during the war.

Originally posted by Master Han
That you love to parrot irrelevant factoids?
If you find some of my posts irrelevant then their is no need for you to respond them.

This thread involves discussion about how much of a failure Vitiate is. My contention is that this is a shortsighted assessment. Like every notable character, Vitiate have history of failures and successes.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you suppose Gunray was so terrified of the Republic's intervention? Why do you suppose the senate meetings in AotC mention the creation of an army, but never a navy? They already had one. Various EU sources confirm that the Ruusaan Reformation, while disbanding the army, merely scaled down the navy and put it in the hands of the Judicial Department. As of TPM, it was still the most powerful military force in the galaxy by several orders of magnitude.
Gunray was a coward.

Also, the Republic had very limited offensive firepower of its own during his time:

The defeat of the Sith and the Ruusan Reformations brought centuries of peace and economic prosperity to the Republic, and the wise leadership of several extraordinary Chancellors rebuilt galactic society and fueled renewed exploration and colonization of the galaxy's northern and southern reaches.

But while the Republic withstood challenges such as the brief resurgence of the Mandalorians, its prosperity masked flaws and fault lines, particularly between the worlds of the Core, Colonies, and Inner Rim, and the planets farther out. The abolition of a central military may have curbed abuses of power, but it left outlying systems and sectors struggling to defend themselves against pirates, slavers, and the ambitions of small-time despots. Many worlds turned to megacorps and petty tyrants for protection, trading freedom and prosperity for security.

The rule of law was often taken for granted in the Core but theoretical on the Rim. Wealthy worlds colonized new planets in the Rim with scant regard for the rights of indigenous species, and the megacorps treated unexplored space as a private preserve for commercial exploitation. Sometimes such exploitation was so blatant that the Senate stirred itself to action: In 704 BBY it ended the disastrous experiment in corporate administration known as the Outer Expansion Zone after civil unrest gripped the Expansion Region north of Coruscant. But particularly in the Outer Rim, central authority was often weak to the point of being nonexistent, and abuses went unchecked.

In the centuries before the civil war that would spell the end of the Republic, swaths of the galaxy fell into economic stagnation and decay. The Senate made two significant moves in 124 BBY. First, it declared the entire Outer Rim and parts of the Mid Rim a free-trade zone in a bid to jump-start economic development and rebuild ties between the Rim and the Core. Second, it granted a number of megacorps the status of functional constituencies, granting them Senate representation. These efforts did spur economic development, but the cost was a further diminution of central power, and even fewer protections for poor, remote worlds. The chief beneficiaries, meanwhile, were the Trade Federation and the other megacorps. Rimmers saw raw material taken away from their worlds and returned as goods they couldn't afford, while the Trade Federation cannily turned its economic might into political power, buying up blocs of votes in the Senate.

By the final decades of the Republic, it was clear that some kind of reckoning was at hand. Large portions of the Rim were abandoned to the growing might of the Hutts or exploited by wealthy, corrupt Senators, while in the Core the deal-making was more mannered but equally crooked. In many systems megacorps were the only law, and they were concerned with profits, not the rights of citizens, environmental protections, or economic development. As chaos spread, powerful sectors and megacorps first chafed at the limits placed on their military capabilities, then began to ignore these ancient laws the Republic could no longer enforce.

A movement of determined Senators, who took the name Reformists, sought to rekindle the spirit of Ruusan and check the megacorps' power. But many of their fellow Senators were either in the pocket of the megacorps, or too frightened to stand up to the commercial giants. The Senatorial faction known as the Militarists, meanwhile, sought to restore order by reviving a centralized military. But many Reformists were suspicious of their motives, and refused common cause with them.

The Republic began to fragment. A terrorist group known as the Nebula Front began attacking Trade Federation shipping, intensifying the cartel's calls that it be allowed greater freedom to defend itself. A manufactured bacta shortage led to a struggle among pirates, smugglers, and Republic paramilitaries known as the Stark Hyperspace War, with the Jedi and the Trade Federation caught in the middle. Uprisings blazed up on the edges of the galaxy, and elsewhere long-buried animosities began to smolder.

In the 30s BBY the Reformists sought to tax many Rim trade routes, undoing the tax advantages granted a century before to the likes of the Trade Federation, Corporate Alliance, and the InterGalactic Banking Clan. In return for accepting renewed taxation, the Reformists proposed allowing the Trade Federation to expand its defensive forces.

What the Reformists couldn't know was that when its profits were threatened, the Trade Federation would use its new military capabilities to blockade a Republic world. And no one knew that the galaxy's tensions were being stoked by a shadowy mastermind whose goal was to destroy the Republic itself.

Source: Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare

As apparent from this informative revelation, Trade Federation arguably became the most powerful military faction within the Republic. Episode I depicts a military contingent of Trade Federation in action on Naboo. Therefore, your assessment is incorrect but mine is correct.

Originally posted by Master Han
I thought it would be obvious enough. My point is that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate, yet accomplished more.
And how exactly he faced longer odds then Vitiate?

Sidious: 82 BBY - 11 ABY
Vitiate: 5113 BBY - Unknown (Over 1300 years of history)

Also, Sidious didn't exactly accomplish more then Vitiate;

1. Sidious didn't create a civilization of his own; he transformed an existing one. Vitiate created a new civilization which is an equally impressive accomplishment, if not more.
2. Sidious virtually exterminated the Jedi Order once; Vitiate also accomplished the same once (KoTOR era wars are the products of his influence).

Anything else?

Originally posted by Master Han
How does this nullify the duo's unprecedented feat of unbalancing the Force itself? How does your constant insistence in repeating Sidious's taking advantage of opportune circumstances change the fact that Vitiate had far more?
You are STILL not getting the point?

I pointed out that this feat clouded the judgment/actions of the Jedi Order even further during the era of peace. Did I said anything about the nature of the feat? Try to focus on the context and whole point instead of nitpicking statements from within.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because Vitiate had only two people to report on the Republic at that point. He had a vital opportunity to wipe out the Republic and the Jedi, and failed.
The Great Hyperspace War proved to be disastrous experience for the Sith and brought them to the brink of extinction. In addition, failure of Exar Kun didn't help the situation. Due to these events, Vitiate remained cautious about taking steps against the Republic. He wanted to test the strength of the Republic first before he would take chances against it himself. Therefore, Vitiate first encouraged the Mandalorians to attack the Republic. Things were going well until Revan got involved. In response, Vitiate involved him in his schemes as well which led to destruction of the Jedi Order and an extremely vulnerable and weakened Republic. Now was the perfect time for Vitiate to act but Revan returned and delayed his plans for 300 years. Unfortunately for Vitiate, the Republic and Jedi Order emerged stronger then ever before during this pan of 300 years.

Revan's intervention angered Vitiate to such a degree that not just he developed Abeloth like capabilities to improve his safeguard but planned to destroy the whole galaxy with the power of the dark side to complete his ultimate transformation in to an omnipotent entity. In addition, Vitiate awarded Revan with a punishment worse then death by keeping the powerful Jedi Master imprisoned in a horrific captive device for 300 years and siphoned energies from him during this whole time.

Originally posted by Master Han
Creating an isolated sith empire by hiding from the Jedi and the Republic doesn't compare to actually taking over the galaxy and forming the most powerful and dominant empire that ever existed.
This is a matter of personal perspective.

The Great Hyperspace War left the Sith in a dire situation; they had lost their power due to infighting and they were on the run due to being hunted by the Jedi and Republic forces. Vitiate was the only dark side practitioner in the galaxy who managed to save the Sith from extinction and organized them in to a major power with passage of time. By all accounts, this was an extremely difficult and challenging task. To give you an idea, the Sith spent decades on the space alone during their attempts to flee detection of their enemies.

Originally posted by Master Han
He dubed him Lord Vitiate.
Big deal?

Originally posted by Master Han
"and your point is?" nonetheless suggests that you were either too stupid to understand a laughably simpleton analogy, or that you conceded that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate.
You are wrong! You are the one who is ignorant of lot of things in the lore.

Originally posted by Master Han
He didn't suppose Vader could possibly be moved by compassion. But he was well aware of Vader's dark side intentions, and can even read his thoughts on multiple occasions.
And he didn't act even though Vader left ample clues about his motives? Such a genius.

Originally posted by Master Han
Parroting age old tautologies doesn't change the fact that Palpatine faced longer odds and accomplished more.
You are wrong.

Originally posted by Master Han
Really? Please, feel free to express the times that Vitiate has been "tested" to a greater degree than Sidious, that he overcame primarily through his own skill.
Indeed;

1. Rebellious Dark Councils (2 in total)
2. Thousands of traitors within the Sith Empire
3. Several wars
4. Assassination attempts from many Jedi

Originally posted by Master Han
Me, a Sidious wanker? Gideon, Intrepid and plenty of others would disagree with you. I hold that Windu legitimately defeated him, that Yoda was superior to him, and that Luke is above even his DE incarnation. You are the one who insists on blindly standing by your favorite TOR videogame against logic, reason, sanity, canon, and all your other long hated enemies.
Oh wonderful! This doesn't changes the fact of how much you wank Sidious and Plagueis and ignore lot of important information about other Sith. Vitiate and Nihilus are not even Sith by the way, they are Sith only in name but dark side practitioners in reality.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, it's your fault that you try to show off your obsessive database of Vitiate quotes to prove a point that has no connection to said quotes whatosever.
I try to bring facts about Vitiate on the table in any discussion involving him.

Originally posted by Master Han
Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate. Sidious is a far superior duelist. Sidious has greater combat feats. Sidious would win in a confrontation.
Wanking continues...

Originally posted by Master Han
So you made the argument that Vitiate's Force ability had galactic reach...to prove that he was among the more powerful of those (read: almost everyone) with galactic reach?
No, this was one of the points.

Originally posted by Master Han
Coruscant ring a bell?
Republic is far bigger then Coruscant. Also, Vitiate didn't want to reveal his Nihilistic side to even his followers. Haven't you read Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan?

Originally posted by Master Han
Good for him. He still struggled immensely when faced against a dynamic strike team that didn't stand in one place.
He eliminated T3-M4 and was ready to take on Revan, Meetra and Scourge simultaneously once they assembled in front of him.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, so what? He got knocked on his ass. He was clearly vulnerable.
And this is supposed to mean that he is weak and stands no chance against other big players? How deluded can you be.

Originally posted by Master Han
Don't pull shit out of your ass; it's never stated that the overall situation was "grim", just that the HoT's defeating Vitiate was the most likely possibility.
My point is in relation to Vitiate's confrontation with Revan and his allies.

Originally posted by Master Han
Mace Windu wasn't on that strike team.
So? HoT was in it and he is a DAMN superb combatant.

Originally posted by Master Han
So more of your useless parroting?
No! Yours.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, it does. He needs sith sorcery to do that. Sidious can do it by getting angry.
And Sith Sorcery doesn't involves emotions? Seriously, you need to stop debating Star Wars.

Originally posted by Master Han
ROFLAMO - so your trump card is to tell us to wait until 2015. so that you'll win the argument?
Every thing is proceeding as I have foreseen.

Originally posted by Master Han
He defeated him in a duel by having some of his potential unlocked. He certainly would have unlocked said potential by LotF.
Regardless of that unlocked potential, Luke managed to cut off a hand of Sidious at maximum (Sidious tolerated this level of injury just fine). More importantly, Luke had nothing on Sidious when it came to Force abilities. Luke made it out alive from this encounter because of aid of Leia, otherwise, he would have been dead.

Sidious (DE) > peak Luke

Originally posted by Master Han
Force psychosis, appearing in multiple places at the same time, fooling Luke Skywalker with illusions, shrugging off a Force push powerful enough to "knock a frigate out of orbit", continuing to battle despite having had huge blaster bolts and lightsaber bolts seared into her, melting a city just by getting angry (Palpatine still had to develop a new technique) and, allegedly, having the power to cause galaxy scale destruction, etc.

Nothing Vitiate has ever done compares to Force storms. Deal with it.
Force psychosis is somehow comparable to Force Storm? An ancient Sith Lord Terrak Morrhage had comparable capability in this aspect.

The rest of the feats indicate that Abeloth had considerable galactic level Force abilities; however, on individual basis, none of these are as impressive as Force Storm.

Now learn a thing or two about galactic level Force abilities of Vitiate:-

He siphoned energies of countless souls/beings from multiple planets (Medriaas; Dromund Kaas; and Maelstrom region); he prevented aging and decay of his original body/avatars with this feat; this kind of power also made it possible for him to inflict planetary-scale destruction single-handedly, if he wanted to.

In addition, he controlled all of his puppets on galactic scale which numbered in thousands with his telepathic abilities, granting him additional galactic level reach with combative actions. He also masked the presence of all of his puppets embedded within the Jedi Order and Republic by empowering the leader of his puppets (First Son). Simultaneously, he engaged in combative actions as well and also continuously manipulated the environment of Dromund Kaas.

So the summary is like this:-

Siphoning energies from countless beings on multiple planets + continuous prevention of decay and aging of original body/avatars + galactic level telepathic powers in action (additional firepower) + influencing the environment of Dromund Kaas + combative or mass-scale destructive actions

---

You think that Abeloth animating many Avatars simultaneously is impressive?

Well, Vitiate not just could perform lot of actions simultaneously by himself but he had additional firepower under his disposal with his Children (or puppets) whom he also controlled.

Did I ever mention before that Vitiate possessed Abeloth like capabilities? I guess so.

"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

Makes sense.

Originally posted by Master Han
Can you not read? I already called you out on your false dilemma. The only characters more powerful than Palpatine have feats to match his, Vitiate does not.
What about The Father? And your assessment is not very convincing.

Originally posted by Master Han
Actually, Sidious seriously ponders in the prologue the possibility that Plagueis was more powerful in the dark side than anyone that had lived before him.
Sidious doesn't knows much about Vitiate and neither he is in the position to evaluate his power properly.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, he's the most powerful until Sidious himself surpassed him. Just like how Yoda is the most powerful until Luke comes along.
1. Canon sources do not CONFIRM Luke to be stronger then Yoda. This is fanon assumption.
2. Plagueis isn't the strongest Sith prior to Sidious; even the accolade he earned is vague.

So either open your mind for all of the lore or drop your assumption regarding relative positions of Plagueis and Luke in the context of power within the mythos.

Originally posted by Master Han
You know, with your constant pandering of irrelevant factoids and continued persistence of absurd double standards, from accusing some statements of "hyperbole" while parroting "full power of the dark side" to complaining about "fanon" with regards to mentions of canonical statements you deny as a result of your own subjective fetishes, I'm this close to putting you on ignore.
You are confused, deluded, lack knowledge and more. Only cowards and stubborn individuals ignore and shy away from debates when they realize that their propaganda is not working.

How does pakistan food taste?

^^^

Excellent. Many foreigners like it.

I heard it's all spicy and stuff.

^^^

You heard correct! People here cook lot of tasty stuff. Though cooking quality varies from individual to individual.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He siphoned energies of countless souls/beings from multiple planets (Medriaas; Dromund Kaas; and Maelstrom region);

Really? Never heard of him draining Kaas and the Maelstrom region.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are wrong! You are the one who is ignorant of lot of things in the lore.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

You conceded the debate when you asked what my point was. There are three possibilities here:

1. English is not your first language
2. You were too stupid to understand my very obvious contention
3. You were too stupid to understand my very obvious contention, and therefore agreed with my analogy

Only one of the above would elicit sympathy from me, or anyone else for that matter.

This is almost as embarrassing as your laughable context-blooper in the Luke vs. Vitiate thread, which you refused to concede or even with my blessings ignore, or at the very least go back to check the source of my amusement. Like, you could at least try harder than this, SWL.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force psychosis is somehow comparable to Force Storm? An ancient Sith Lord Terrak Morrhage had comparable capability in this aspect.


Not just Force psychosis...Force psychosis with galactic reach! Which, in your deluded fanon, belongs only to those of an exclusive club.



Yes, they are. Read again; when Abeloth recovered her full power, the High Council's intelligence suggested she had the power not only to destroy Coruscant, but to wreak massive, galaxy wide destruction. This doesn't even factor in her making Luke Skywalker piss his pants.



Ritual. I don't care. Sidious is superior. Force storms don't need rituals.



Ritual. I don't care. Sidious is superior. Force storms don't need rituals.



Holy shit, what part of "ritual" don't you understand? Sidious could destroy star fleets just by getting angry.



Abeloth did not animate avatars. She was literally in multiple places at the same time.



No, he does not, and your pathetic, deluded opinion aside, he would get his shit stomped in by Abeloth at her weakest point.



Your lack of understanding of the English language leads me to believe that it isn't your native tongue, or that you never grew to understand the perfect tense. Darth Sidious is explicitly described by multiple sources to be the most powerful sith lord who ever lived. When he returned in Empire's End, the ancient sith ghosts in Korriban bowed before him in acknowledgment of his power. A dark lord of the sith, voluntarily bowing before another?



The Father has powerscaling and Leland Chee on his side.



There's still the publisher's summary. Plagueis has accolades to suggest that he's above Vitiate, and he has superior feats; you masturbate to Vitiate's "GALACTIC" force powers, while ignoring that you could achieve far more satisfying orgasms from Plagueis and Sidious's pulling off a universal undermining of the balance of the Force itself.



Love the irony here.



How is it vague? Sidious and the publisher believe that he's more powerful than any sith that had come before him, and his feats speak for themselves.



Assumptions? My assumptions are backed by canon fact. You are the only parroting your own fanon fantasies of Vitiate's power, in the face of authorial fiat.



Shy away from debates? You have a habit of conveniently dropping arguments and moving on to another thread, while pretending that nothing you had just been tooled with had ever been provided; where are you on the Luke vs Vitiate thread? The most powerful Force user? Please, don't conjure such laughably self-defeating points.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? Never heard of him draining Kaas and the Maelstrom region.
Yes.

Wheres that stated?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wheres that stated?
SWTORE reveals that he siphoned energies of many individuals on Dromund Kaas.

In addition, he siphoned energy of Revan on Maelstrom. This was 12 parsecs away from Dromund Kaas.

Revan survived by siphoning energy of Meetra's ghost form.

Oh yeah.

I sense Legend just helped you reach orgasm.

Real sex is better, BTW. Shall I ask for his number?

Hmmm? No, its not that big of a deal. I already knew he was draining Revan and that he siphoned power from some other guys isn't that special.

Sorry you were disappointed in the release.

Let's talk some more about how much Vitiate sucks. Han, feel free to describe just how and to what extent Vitiate sucks.

Despite being empowered by a dark side nexus, Vitiate was knocked on his ass by Revan, almost killed by a smaller-than-R2D2 droid's flamethrower, almost killed by Meetra's lightsaber throw, and then shocked to see that Scourge had joined with the heroes. In comparison, Palpatine has, on multiple occasions, read the far more powerful Vader's thoughts, such as one event displayed in the Thrawn trilogy sourcebook:



He further fails to detect Scourge's treachery over three centuries, not even at his most vulnerable, such as when he was undergoing the intense immortality ritual and probably couldn't shield his mind.

Over said three centuries, Vitiate pulled off a quite spectacular set of failures feats, such as continuing to fail to detect Scourge's treachery and getting manipulated by an immobilized-in-stasis Revan, before finally dying to the "Hero of Tython", who canonically, is less powerful than Yoda.