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Hey guys I just don't understand here about Luicfer MorningStar. Did he create_Multiverse or_Universe???? I seen People on one side says Luicfer create_Multiverse. Then I seen people in other side says lucifer create_Universe...


So what it is????


It all started when I was reading__Michael Demiurgos respect thread made by Air legend. He clam that Lucifer only create _Universe. And I think someone show him of a scan of lucifer talking to_Nirvana and clam he did not create one_universe. But a _Multiverse. But Air Legend said__ That's just one example. And ask Do you even know what the word abundant means??? CAnt remember what he says after that.. But it clear that he did not Believe that Luicfer did not create_Multiverse..


So what going here? Did Luicfer create_Multiverse? Or he create?_Universe???


Witch one is right answer????

Forgive me if this thread is wrong place. I don't where to put it.. I just want the answer I am looking for..

It been bothering me in weeks

I think to find the answer you have to look inside yourself

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I think to find the answer you have to look inside yourself


Lol what???

@TheDarkestKing1:

it really depends on what you choose to go with.

initially it was stated that he created a universe (which happened in issue 13). However, Lucifer: Nirvana says that what he created is a multiverse. While several other issues which, chronologically take place after lucifer nirvana say that it was only a universe, along with a 2008 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/IVi9jvn.jpg?1

in short, everything apart from lucifer nirvana says that what he created is a universe, so you can either go with what was stated in lucifer nirvana (that it was a multiverse) or with the other issues and bios which state it was a universe.

one thing's for sure though, lucifer's creation is completely separated from yahweh's multiverse, since it can only be accessed through the letter of passage (which creates a gateway leading outside of yahweh's creation).

also, Lucifer along with michael were the ones who created yahweh's creation, which is confirmed to be a multiverse (though this is contradicted in the issues toward the end of swamp thing volume 2 which says that the presence/voice is what brought creation into existence (and several other issues state the same thing) so again, take your pick).

When in doubt, go with the character's account. Lucifer said himself he created a multiverse.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/36657/1174994-lucifermultiverse.jpg
"and what I've created is not a realm, it is a totality, a multiverse."

yeah, the idea was a new 'creation', emulating but differing from our own. lucifer's as well as the intent behind, well, the whole fricking series, clearly point to the idea that he created a multiverse. ignore bios though. they are very rarely ever a good idea.

Lucifer in and of himself created nothing. With his brother Micheal, he created a multiverse. It required both of them.

Originally posted by Cogito
When in doubt, go with the character's account. Lucifer said himself he created a multiverse.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/36657/1174994-lucifermultiverse.jpg
"and what I've created is not a realm, it is a totality, a multiverse."

Lucifer also mentioned that what he created was a universe (lucifer #20)

http://i.imgur.com/rfc8GOA.jpg?1

im pretty sure if i continue to look through the pages of the series, ill find at least half a dozen more coming from lucifer's own mouth.

so as i said before, it's up to you to go with what you want.

It was referred to as a multiverse in Nirvana. Universe in the main series. Both were written by Mike Carey, so it's best you clarify it with him.

Originally posted by operator616
Lucifer also mentioned that what he created was a universe (lucifer #20)

http://i.imgur.com/rfc8GOA.jpg?1

im pretty sure if i continue to look through the pages of the series, ill find at least half a dozen more coming from lucifer's own mouth.

so as i said before, it's up to you to go with what you want.

I'd say most if not all of the times Lucifer referred to a universe he could have been merely referring to the universe he was presently in, rather than the totality of his creation.

Originally posted by operator616
@TheDarkestKing1:

it really depends on what you choose to go with.

initially it was stated that he created a universe (which happened in issue 13). However, Lucifer: Nirvana says that what he created is a multiverse. While several other issues which, chronologically take place after lucifer nirvana say that it was only a universe, along with a 2008 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/IVi9jvn.jpg?1

in short, everything apart from lucifer nirvana says that what he created is a universe, so you can either go with what was stated in lucifer nirvana (that it was a multiverse) or with the other issues and bios which state it was a universe.

one thing's for sure though, lucifer's creation is completely separated from yahweh's multiverse, since it can only be accessed through the letter of passage (which creates a gateway leading outside of yahweh's creation).

also, Lucifer along with michael were the ones who created yahweh's creation, which is confirmed to be a multiverse (though this is contradicted in the issues toward the end of swamp thing volume 2 which says that the presence/voice is what brought creation into existence (and several other issues state the same thing) so again, take your pick).

I would think Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel were there near the beginning but it seems they just played a small part in the process. The Presence/The Voice was the one who created the DCU. All they did was just watch it happen.

Originally posted by kevdude
I would think Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel were there near the beginning but it seems they just played a small part in the process. The Presence/The Voice was the one who created the DCU. All they did was just watch it happen.


no, it's stated that lucifer and michael are the ones who created it, but the presence could have done it without them, he had them do it to teach them their skills (lucifer #39):

http://i.imgur.com/NOyEdDY.jpg

bio says that michael brought creation into being while lucifer's will was used to form creation:

http://i.imgur.com/lfrDAlz.jpg?1

though i do understand what you're referring to, which is lucifer #75, when the presence says that he created everything, or something like that.

no one in comics has ever created anything.

btw, just to point something out:

as i posted above, the lucifer series says that lucifer and michael created the universe.

--

while swamp thing #166 tells us that the voice was the one who brought it into existence:

http://i.imgur.com/rb8BTqZ.jpg

swamp thing, sandman,lucifer and the like should be closely associated with each other, and shouldn't contradict each other. Other series (see ahead) is understandable.

--

Preacher #66 (random example) has their own God who created the universe:

http://i.imgur.com/6FCACOf.jpg?1

bio confirms:

http://i.imgur.com/u9OALvR.jpg?1

--

the invisible series have a completely different cosmology altogether in which - reality is a hologram, which was created as a result of overlaping of 2 meta universes (2008 encyclopedia)

http://i.imgur.com/i1YqB2j.jpg?1

the invisibles v3 #12: it's all a hologram:

http://i.imgur.com/GqrzwFr.jpg?1

4 different vertigo series, with 4 different creation stories, no? do note that this is just a few, i could cite more.


same thing with dc, synnar was shown creating it in rann/thangar #6, another one shown to be creating the universe in warlord #132, yet the presence is established as being its creator.

so, nobody knows what creation story we should go with

Originally posted by Cogito
I'd say most if not all of the times Lucifer referred to a universe he could have been merely referring to the universe he was presently in, rather than the totality of his creation.

Originally posted by operator616
no, it's stated that lucifer and michael are the ones who created it, but the presence could have done it without them, he had them do it to teach them their skills (lucifer #39):

http://i.imgur.com/NOyEdDY.jpg

bio says that michael brought creation into being while lucifer's will was used to form creation:

http://i.imgur.com/lfrDAlz.jpg?1

though i do understand what you're referring to, which is lucifer #75, when the presence says that he created everything, or something like that.

They merely took a small part in the process, it makes no sense for them to actually have been the ones that created it when YHWH/The Presence/The Voice is the Creator and taught them (Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer) their power's.

"He (Lucifer) has never made a universe before"

http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/24/6ihf.jpg

"He gave us power as great as his own--and then when he was done with world-making, he forbade us to use it".

http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/594/9uw7.jpg

All credit is given to The Presence/The Voice, even Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel know He is the Creator and admit it several times.

Originally posted by Cogito
I'd say most if not all of the times Lucifer referred to a universe he could have been merely referring to the universe he was presently in, rather than the totality of his creation.
He must have been a fan of favoritism then, considering the manner in which one particular universe was given such specific attention by everyone from the Lilim to Amenadiel to the Basanos to freaking Yahweh himself.

Originally posted by kevdude
They merely took a small part in the process, it makes no sense for them to actually have been the ones that created it when YHWH/The Presence/The Voice is the Creator and taught them (Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer) their power's.

"He (Lucifer) has never made a universe before"


"He gave us power as great as his own--and then when he was done with world-making, he forbade us to use it".

All credit is given to The Presence/The Voice, even Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel know He is the Creator and admit it several times.

your scans don't contradict anything. In fact, it speaks the truth, Yahweh was the one who created the world (earth), and the host, but the rest of the universe was created by lucifer and michael (lucifer #26):

http://i.imgur.com/Sv0IZh9.jpg?1


Although the fact that Yahweh's (brief) bio doesn't mention anything about him creating the universe........

http://i.imgur.com/xAP3988.jpg?1

......while lucifer's bio does (which i already posted) does tell us something, no? which is - lucifer and michael were the ones who created the universe (or most of it)


on a side note, Mike Carey does say that there was a creation before yahweh's, which wasn't created by him ( from Lucifer #29 letter's page)

http://i.imgur.com/QxS09l6.jpg?1 (continued in the following scan)
http://i.imgur.com/KG4RAWd.jpg?1

i have no idea what he's referring to, because im pretty sure nowhere in the series was it mentioned that there was an earlier creation.

In any case, this creation story isn't more true than any other in the other vertigo titles, i already posted 3 other apart from lucifer, and i assure you there are more, and shouldn't be disregarded.

Originally posted by operator616
your scans don't contradict anything. In fact, it speaks the truth, Yahweh was the one who created the world (earth), and the host, but the rest of the universe was created by lucifer and michael (lucifer #26):

http://i.imgur.com/Sv0IZh9.jpg?1


Although the fact that Yahweh's (brief) bio doesn't mention anything about him creating the universe........

http://i.imgur.com/xAP3988.jpg?1

......while lucifer's bio does (which i already posted) does tell us something, no? which is - lucifer and michael were the ones who created the universe (or most of it)


on a side note, Mike Carey does say that there was a creation before yahweh's, which wasn't created by him ( from Lucifer #29 letter's page)

http://i.imgur.com/QxS09l6.jpg?1 (continued in the following scan)
http://i.imgur.com/KG4RAWd.jpg?1

i have no idea what he's referring to, because im pretty sure nowhere in the series was it mentioned that there was an earlier creation.

In any case, this creation story isn't more true than any other in the other vertigo titles, i already posted 3 other apart from lucifer, and i assure you there are more, and shouldn't be disregarded.

He gave them roles to fulfill but he is the maker of everything, they are not, they do not worship themselves but The Voice. Preacher is not in DC continuity so I know that doesn't count and don't know anything about the invisibles so idk. Synnar tells the story so its hard to believe him from what we already know.

http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/826/5ap4.jpg http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/42/fvi4.jpg http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/716/dnvy.jpg

Mike Carey showed it a few times in the Lucifer comic where another creation before Gods creation, but those failed creations do not matter any longer since YHWH/The Presence is eternal and creates perfect one's. Just 2 instances of the other creations.

http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/690/xbm1.jpg http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/546/7qa5.jpg

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I think to find the answer you have to look inside yourself

QFT.

ntuqTuc6HxM

Originally posted by kevdude
He gave them roles to fulfill but he is the maker of everything, they are not, they do not worship themselves but The Voice. Preacher is not in DC continuity so I know that doesn't count and don't know anything about the invisibles so idk. Synnar tells the story so its hard to believe him from what we already know.



Mike Carey showed it a few times in the Lucifer comic where another creation before Gods creation, but those failed creations do not matter any longer since YHWH/The Presence is eternal and creates perfect one's. Just 2 instances of the other creations.




--

hmm.... it's funny you should say that about preacher, considering it was referenced in the 2010 DC handbook (a random example):

http://i.imgur.com/avis8gm.jpg?1

it does however show crossovers but i can assure you those have references as well, i can prove it.

and the saint was even seen in DC's hitman #42:

http://i.imgur.com/cqtGqaE.jpg

i can show you multiple references from several other issues of the series.


--

your 1st scan doesn't contradict anything. It tells us without yahweh there wouldn't be anything which is true because yawheh was the one who created lucifer and michael, who in turn, created the cosmos.

your 2nd scan is refutable, i can say that i created a world of misery and pain, does that mean we have to take it literally? nope. Though even IF we take that literally you do realize that i already provided on panel evidence that says lucifer and michael were the ones who created it, right? in which case we resort to bios, which clearly says that lucifer and michael were the ones who created it and not yahweh.

your 3rd scan doesn't contradict anything either, since it tells us that lucifer is an aspect of God, which is true he does embody God's will.

Good to know that i remembered lucifer #75 incorrectly, in which Yahweh merely says that he is lucifer's (and the host's) maker, while in the very same page he mentions that Michael will release the energy and Lucifer weave's it into suns:

http://i.imgur.com/ecgcBa5.jpg

And this is what was confirmed by the bio!

--

i know that there are other creations (universes), in fact there are millions of them (which are represented by the mirrors), which are inside Yahweh's totality of creation. Lucifer #37:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg

what i was saying is that if there was a creation before the totality of Yahweh's creation.

Though your second scan is probably true seeing how it was actually the silk man who emerged from that particular creation.

btw, the reason it is referred to as being Yahweh's creation and not Lucifer's and Michael's is because it was created under Yahweh's orders unlike the one in Lucifer #13.

--

Do you honestly believe that, aside from the ones i already posted, Synnar is the only other creation story??

there's a reason i only posted creation stories from vertigo titles (and i have more), i didn't even go into DC.

But you can go ahead and give me the go, and you'll have at least half a dozen creation stories on your hands to debunk, not that you can, because not only are they shown on panel but - at least some of them - are also confirmed by the bios/handbooks/encyclopedias/secret origins files.

All you have to do is give me the go.

Multiverse

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I think to find the answer you have to look inside yourself

Originally posted by operator616
--

hmm.... it's funny you should say that about preacher, considering it was referenced in the 2010 DC handbook (a random example):

http://i.imgur.com/avis8gm.jpg?1

it does however show crossovers but i can assure you those have references as well, i can prove it.

and the saint was even seen in DC's hitman #42:

http://i.imgur.com/cqtGqaE.jpg

i can show you multiple references from several other issues of the series.


--

your 1st scan doesn't contradict anything. It tells us without yahweh there wouldn't be anything which is true because yawheh was the one who created lucifer and michael, who in turn, created the cosmos.

your 2nd scan is refutable, i can say that i created a world of misery and pain, does that mean we have to take it literally? nope. Though even IF we take that literally you do realize that i already provided on panel evidence that says lucifer and michael were the ones who created it, right? in which case we resort to bios, which clearly says that lucifer and michael were the ones who created it and not yahweh.

your 3rd scan doesn't contradict anything either, since it tells us that lucifer is an aspect of God, which is true he does embody God's will.

Good to know that i remembered lucifer #75 incorrectly, in which Yahweh merely says that he is lucifer's (and the host's) maker, while in the very same page he mentions that Michael will release the energy and Lucifer weave's it into suns:

http://i.imgur.com/ecgcBa5.jpg

And this is what was confirmed by the bio!

--

i know that there are other creations (universes), in fact there are millions of them (which are represented by the mirrors), which are inside Yahweh's totality of creation. Lucifer #37:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg

what i was saying is that if there was a creation before the totality of Yahweh's creation.

Though your second scan is probably true seeing how it was actually the silk man who emerged from that particular creation.

btw, the reason it is referred to as being Yahweh's creation and not Lucifer's and Michael's is because it was created under Yahweh's orders unlike the one in Lucifer #13.

--

Do you honestly believe that, aside from the ones i already posted, Synnar is the only other creation story??

there's a reason i only posted creation stories from vertigo titles (and i have more), i didn't even go into DC.

But you can go ahead and give me the go, and you'll have at least half a dozen creation stories on your hands to debunk, not that you can, because not only are they shown on panel but - at least some of them - are also confirmed by the bios/handbooks/encyclopedias/secret origins files.

All you have to do is give me the go.

I think you are getting events mixed up, it was the physical universe that Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel made under their Father's supervision, not the spiritual/metaphysical plane's that The Source/The Presence/YHWH created. I know there is other creation story's, but just take them as not true because DC itself has said the Judeo-Christian mythology sits on top. It was fun to discuss this with you.


btw Lucifer created a multiverse imo

Originally posted by kevdude
The Source/The Presence/YHWH created. I know there is other creation story's, but just take them as not true because DC itself has said the Judeo-Christian mythology sits on top.
btw Lucifer created a multiverse imo


It was fun to discuss this with you.



The source is not the same as the presence, unless we're talking about Kirby's/Byrne's Source (which could be or could be not the same as God, though there were heavy implications that it does). the one that appeared in Lucifer #19 (or something close to that issue) for instance, is certainly not the presence. But it's generally portrayed as being something close to God.
Judeo-Christian cosmology is the one used by most of the writers, that's true, however many writers choose to ignore it and create a cosmology of their own. Examples (only DC, im setting aside vertigo, and wildstorm since they're separate multiverses)
-
Morrison has his own cosmology which he showed in superman beyond, this was even acknowledged by the handbooks (secret origins files). Earlier in his JLA, he had referenced Allah as being the creator (this event was even referenced in the 2008 encyclopedia), while at the same time having referenced the presence.
-
Kirby also has his own cosmology with his 4th world, which goes back to the early 70's and emphasized heavily in the 1997 genesis arc. Which was acknowledged by the handbooks as well.
-
Freisher also has a personal Dc cosmology which he introduced in the late 80's (warlord series).
-
the Synnar cosmology which was created by starlin in 2008 this one was a multiversal creation story, which contradicts........everything in dc.
The starlin and Freisher cosmologies weren't confirmed by any secondary evidence, the rest, were.
I also remember that in the owaw story there was a reference to multiple creators/makers at once.
And this list goes on....
feel free to ask for scans, i have them all.
im cool with people believing that lucifer created a multiverse.


Likewise.