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Yoda (ROTS) runs a gauntlet! with full rests in btwn, how far does he get? Setting is on an open, flat terrain.


1. Darth Bane (DoE)
2. Darth Plagueis
3. Lord Vitiate
4. The Hero of Tython
5. (rematch): RotS Sidious
Boss: RotJ Sidious

Setting?

On "neutral" grounds, he clears, depending on RotJ Sidious's saber ability.

yeah i'd say he clears, but isnt RotJ sid > ROTS sid in terms of force ability?

The setting is likely a bit worse for him that what we've seen him fight in imo. In the hangar and Rotunda he could jump off stuff and stand on things to help negate him height disadvantage and improve his acrobatics. A flat open plain isn't as good for that imo.

how far u think he goes neph?

I think he loses to Bane. estahuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think he loses to Bane. estahuh

You think he's joking? You'd be surprised.

yeah, i probably shouldn't be

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c319/ArcTrigger/shion_laugh.gif

Breezes through 1, struggles immensely with 2, defeats 3 with moderate difficulty, 50/50 shot at 4, and probably loses at 5.

out of pure seriousness: do you think plagueis > vitiate?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
out of pure seriousness: do you think plagueis > vitiate?

As a warrior, unquestionably.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
50/50 shot at 4,

Iiiiinterestink. http://www.celticminded.com/forums/images/smilies/sherlockzk0.gif

how about in destructive force application?

What? They stalemated in ROTS.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What? They stalemated in ROTS.

4 is HoT, not Sidious.

didnt yoda have the advantage with sabers, until palps started using force abilities, in which yoda semi overpowered sidious with tutaminis, until he unluckily flew of the pod, while sidious was able to stay on?

edit: correct me if im wrong

Ah.

Then he defeats HoT with difficulty.

Srry if u didnt catch my post tempest, this is regarding vitiate vs plagueis

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
how about in destructive force application?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What? They stalemated in ROTS.

Yoda seemed to have the upper hand in the lightsaber duel. He just idiotically didn't expect Sidious to use lightning on him when he confronted him after their pod tossing; if he had held onto his lightsaber, he probably would have won.

I missed two of your replies, sorry.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
how about in destructive force application?

Barring a Force nexus and preparation, no, I don't see Vitiate eclipsing Plagueis in destructive Force application. The shit Plagueis did to his Maladian Jedi killing attackers in the book while suffering from extreme blood loss and heart failure is extraordinary.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
didnt yoda have the advantage with sabers, until palps started using force abilities, in which yoda semi overpowered sidious with tutaminis, until he unluckily flew of the pod, while sidious was able to stay on?

edit: correct me if im wrong

SIDIOUS_66 makes a convincing argument that Palpatine's disarming by Yoda was the product of the uneven terrain. Palpatine drops his lightsaber, per the script, when threatened with a fall from the Chancellor's podium. On flat terrain, that probably won't happen.

I could imagine that Yoda is a shade more skillful with his weapon, having actively used it far more than Sidious. Barring that, both are named masters of all 7 forms of combat and all the relevant sources indicate parity at best for Yoda.

No.. the script take priority over the novel. Lucas own script makes it crystal clear what happened. Yoda DISARMS Sidious. No mention of him only losing it because of some terrain issue. Besides, even if that was the case.. both are fighting under such conditions and if yoda unleashes a furious attack and palps is sent reeling and had to recover his footing by dropping his weapon.. well yoda CAUSED that to happen. He didn't just trip and fail. In either case Yoda disarms palps.. and Lucas made that crystal clear.

How does Yoda struggle with Plag? That makes no sense to me.. Yoda is his absolute boss in sabers and I don't see any feats of Plag that leads me to believe he would overwhelm Yoda with the force. Yoda wins that fight and moderate difficulty at worst.

Originally posted by The_Tempest



SIDIOUS_66 makes a convincing argument that Palpatine's disarming by Yoda was the product of the uneven terrain.

It was actually Arhael who was the first to make that argument.

Ah, well, then credit to our dearly missed Arhael.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Besides, even if that was the case.. both are fighting under such conditions and if yoda unleashes a furious attack and palps is sent reeling and had to recover his footing by dropping his weapon.. well yoda CAUSED that to happen. He didn't just trip and fail. In either case Yoda disarms palps..


So I guess you agree then that Skywalker continuously driving back Kenobi meant he was winning the whole time right?


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and Lucas made that crystal clear.



Lucas also made the whole on screen fight a stalemate.

A stalemate in which it's actually Yoda who runs in the end.

Why are you constantly wrong on things DP and yet try and argue them is beyond me. I like you buddy, but sometimes it gets tiring correcting you all the time.

1. The key difference being that it's kenobi STYLE to fight on the defensive.. which somtimes means giving ground wnen needed. This is in stark contrast to how Palps fights. Thus, Kenobi giving ground isn't the same as Palps or Yoda giving ground.

2. If Anakin had disarmed Kenobi from his aggressive attacks.. I wouldn't say Kenobi just dropped his saber because of uneven ground. I would say the EXACT same thing I'm saying here... Anakin FORCED kenobi to drop his saber from his attack. JUST LIKE Yoda FORCED Palps to drop his weapon from his attack.

3. To say nothing of the fact that Lucas says explicitly that yoda DISARMS Palps... anything in the novel sayign otherwise is non canon.

Next correction...

1. He didn't make the whole fight a stalemate actually.. He actually notes in his script that Yoda was gaining the upper hand and the emperor seems doomed. He even shows Yoda buckling down and getting serious and overpowering the emperor's lighting. Lucas also notes that Yoda disarms Sids in saber combat. So yes, while in the end it was a stalemate and I'm okay with calling it that... if anybody had the advantage and won it was Yoda not Sids

2. Did you forget that when both FRESH and ready to go Sids tried to run from Yoda FIRST... "if so powerful you are.. why run" Yoda only left after AFTER what... a 5 story drop after a long fight? Huge difference. To say nothing of the fact that Sids wanted Yoda dead... he tried to kill Yoda first in fact with his executive order to kill the Jedi... So Sids didn't jump down there to get the job done either.. He left himself and called for help... So let's act like yoda leaving means the lost... Sids tried to leave first when both were fresh and also didn't try and pursue yoda and kill him like he wanted and intented.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ah, well, then credit to our dearly missed Arhael.

U want to credit somebody for making a useless point? Guess that's okay.

Speaking of credit, some of it goes to me for finding yet another source that says Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever.

You sure you didn't get it from Silvers exhaustive list of them?

Nope. Silver borrowed plenty from myGideon's exhaustive search, added a few others that IGideon didn't know about.

But I found another one.

Okay.

In all seriousness I think all of these guys are at Yoda's level and can stalemate him more or less.

pretty sure they're all < than yoda except RotS sidious and RotJ, the former most likely being equal.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yoda (ROTS) runs a gauntlet! with full rests in btwn, how far does he get? Setting is on an open, flat terrain.


1. Darth Bane (DoE)
2. Darth Plagueis
3. Lord Vitiate
4. The Hero of Tython
5. (rematch): RotS Sidious
Boss: RotJ Sidious

1.Slaughters.
2.Barley takes a majority
3/4.Wins with some trouble
5.Loses barley or 5/5 split.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ah, well, then credit to our dearly missed Arhael.


I argued that in a debate with DP I believe before Arhael was even a member here. A debate in which DP argued that Yoda actually had a better advantage during his duel with Dooku on Geonosis because Yoda had a wall to leap on or something retarded like that. lol. Now, it might be possible that DP may have been convinced after Arhael argued the same thing, seeing how he was the ONLY one convinced by Arhael's argument that one doesn't limit himself when trying not to kill.

And I don't miss Arhael. He was like another Nai; they both never admitted when they were wrong. I mean, they both made good points sometimes and are far better debaters than the likes of LeGenD, DP, KT and your idiotic "lawyer" friend, I'll admit that, but not people I miss.

1. Takes it with mid-difficulty
2. Takes it with high difficulty
3. Takes it with mid-high difficulty
4. Takes it with mid-difficulty
5. Takes it with extreme difficulty

Boss: Toss up.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

5. Takes it with extreme difficulty


What makes you think Yoda>Sidious?.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
What makes you think Yoda>Sidious?.


I don't. Yoda is the superior swordsman, and Palpatine edges Yoda out in the force. If I had to give them stats it'd be.

Yoda:
Lightsaber: 100
Force: 98

Sidious:
Lightsaber: 95
Force: 100

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I argued that in a debate with DP I believe before Arhael was even a member here. A debate in which DP argued that Yoda actually had a better advantage during his duel with Dooku on Geonosis because Yoda had a wall to leap on or something retarded like that. lol. Now, it might be possible that DP may have been convinced after Arhael argued the same thing, seeing how he was the ONLY one convinced by Arhael's argument that one doesn't limit himself when trying not to kill.

And I don't miss Arhael. He was like another Nai; they both never admitted when they were wrong. I mean, they both made good points sometimes and are far better debaters than the likes of LeGenD, DP, KT and your idiotic "lawyer" friend, I'll admit that, but not people I miss.




Show me that thread.

Arhael came up with that argument when I showed him what it said in the ROTS script. And I never once saw you use that argument until he kept posting it.

But to be fair, yes your right, if that argument was just coming from you I probably would have ignored it.

And yes Yoda will be able to fight at his best when he can bounce around due to his style. Not that Dooku wasn't fighting at his best.

And stop bitching about people who were clearly better debators than you. I don't exactly remember the last time you admitted you were wrong either, even when the evidence is clearly piling up against you.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No.. the script take priority over the novel. Lucas own script makes it crystal clear what happened. Yoda DISARMS Sidious.(...) well yoda CAUSED that to happen. He didn't just trip and fail. In either case Yoda disarms palps.. and Lucas made that crystal clear.

(...)Yoda is his absolute boss in sabers

Agree here.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Takes it with mid-difficulty
2. Takes it with high difficulty
3. Takes it with mid-high difficulty
4. Takes it with mid-difficulty
5. Takes it with extreme difficulty

Also agree.

But i don't think, that Sidious has any advantage over Yoda in the force. They are perfectly equal imo.

And my question: is ROTJ Sidious stronger then ROTS Sidious?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why are you constantly wrong on things DP and yet try and argue them is beyond me. I like you buddy, but sometimes it gets tiring correcting you all the time.

I'm feeling the same way about you.

Did you notice that not one person here agreed with your assessment that TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul? Or that Kenobi cutting him was the most decisive victory between the 2?

Not one person here that I'm aware of agreed with you on that. Heck I doubt you'll even find anyone who puts TPM Kenobi above TPM Qui-Gon. So when your the only one arguing something you really should take time out to think about the argument your making, and at least consider the possibility that YOU'RE WRONG.

Over here I've not even said Yoda's Saber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate. I'm just pointing out here that I really wish you would stop using double standards. It's Ok for Kenobi to give ground, but if Sidious does it he's losing.

Or if Skywalker started out with help against Dooku, then his win over Dooku isn't entirely legitimate. Whilst when Kenobi gets aid from Qui-Gon for the majority of his fight against Maul(even requires his Saber for the finishing blow), then that's a completely legitimate one on one defeat.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. The key difference being that it's kenobi STYLE to fight on the defensive.. which somtimes means giving ground wnen needed. This is in stark contrast to how Palps fights. Thus, Kenobi giving ground isn't the same as Palps or Yoda giving ground.

Your making it sound as though no other Jedi/Saber Form is capable of going on the defense, only Kenobi.

I don't know if you noticed, but Mace Windu was on the defensive for the first 30 seconds of his fight against Sidious, and was also being driven back the entire time.

To even imply that Yoda and Sidious(who have both mastered every form), can not go on the defensive at times is beyond ridiculous.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. If Anakin had disarmed Kenobi from his aggressive attacks.. I wouldn't say Kenobi just dropped his saber because of uneven ground. I would say the EXACT same thing I'm saying here... Anakin FORCED kenobi to drop his saber from his attack. JUST LIKE Yoda FORCED Palps to drop his weapon from his attack.


Difference being Kenobi had plenty of room to give ground. Sidious did not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. To say nothing of the fact that Lucas says explicitly that yoda DISARMS Palps... anything in the novel sayign otherwise is non canon.

Yes in that context on the Senate Pod.

Not to mention Lucas left the scene out entirely for the movie. Clearly he only wanted to show the Viewers a stalemate in the end.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next correction...

1. He didn't make the whole fight a stalemate actually.. He actually notes in his script that Yoda was gaining the upper hand and the emperor seems doomed. He even shows Yoda buckling down and getting serious and overpowering the emperor's lighting. Lucas also notes that Yoda disarms Sids in saber combat. So yes, while in the end it was a stalemate and I'm okay with calling it that... if anybody had the advantage and won it was Yoda not Sids

And Sidious even the playing field by disarming Yoda too. So there was no advantage to Yoda in the end.

Hard to give Yoda the advantage when he ran away. On top of the fact that Tempest will give you plenty of sources which state Yoda simply could not overpower Sidious.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Did you forget that when both FRESH and ready to go Sids tried to run from Yoda FIRST... "if so powerful you are.. why run" Yoda only left after AFTER what... a 5 story drop after a long fight? Huge difference. To say nothing of the fact that Sids wanted Yoda dead... he tried to kill Yoda first in fact with his executive order to kill the Jedi... So Sids didn't jump down there to get the job done either.. He left himself and called for help... So let's act like yoda leaving means the lost... Sids tried to leave first when both were fresh and also didn't try and pursue yoda and kill him like he wanted and intented.

No I haven't forgotten that. Which is why I don't go around preaching that whenever someone runs, it means they lost or were losing in combat.

Although the difference here is that Sith Ultimately would rather not risk their lives. Whilst Jedi are willing to give their lives for the greater good.

Like I said, I've not even once said Yoda's Lightsaber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate, I'm just pointing out your double standards.

Originally posted by Zett
Agree here.



Also agree.

But i don't think, that Sidious has any advantage over Yoda in the force. They are perfectly equal imo.

And my question: is ROTJ Sidious stronger then ROTS Sidious?


ROTJ Sidious should be stronger than his ROTS incarnation. His force powers are likely more potent. That being said his lightsaber skills have likely declined

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I argued that in a debate with DP I believe before Arhael was even a member here. A debate in which DP argued that Yoda actually had a better advantage during his duel with Dooku on Geonosis because Yoda had a wall to leap on or something retarded like that. lol. Now, it might be possible that DP may have been convinced after Arhael argued the same thing, seeing how he was the ONLY one convinced by Arhael's argument that one doesn't limit himself when trying not to kill.

And I don't miss Arhael. He was like another Nai; they both never admitted when they were wrong. I mean, they both made good points sometimes and are far better debaters than the likes of LeGenD, DP, KT and your idiotic "lawyer" friend, I'll admit that, but not people I miss.

I literally havent' seen you make a good point the whole time I've been here. Before you would ride on the coattails of others i.e. Gideon... Lightsnake .. Zam.. Temp etc etc... Now you just don't bring anything to the table in the form of relevant points or good debating.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm feeling the same way about you.

Did you notice that not one person here agreed with your assessment that TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul? Or that Kenobi cutting him was the most decisive victory between the 2?

Not one person here that I'm aware of agreed with you on that. Heck I doubt you'll even find anyone who puts TPM Kenobi above TPM Qui-Gon. So when your the only one arguing something you really should take time out to think about the argument your making, and at least consider the possibility that YOU'RE WRONG.

Over here I've not even said Yoda's Saber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate. I'm just pointing out here that I really wish you would stop using double standards. It's Ok for Kenobi to give ground, but if Sidious does it he's losing.

Or if Skywalker started out with help against Dooku, then his win over Dooku isn't entirely legitimate. Whilst when Kenobi gets aid from Qui-Gon for the majority of his fight against Maul(even requires his Saber for the finishing blow), then that's a completely legitimate one on one defeat.



Your making it sound as though no other Jedi/Saber Form is capable of going on the defense, only Kenobi.

I don't know if you noticed, but Mace Windu was on the defensive for the first 30 seconds of his fight against Sidious, and was also being driven back the entire time.

To even imply that Yoda and Sidious(who have both mastered every form), can not go on the defensive at times is beyond ridiculous.





Difference being Kenobi had plenty of room to give ground. Sidious did not.



Yes in that context on the Senate Pod.

Not to mention Lucas left the scene out entirely for the movie. Clearly he only wanted to show the Viewers a stalemate in the end.



And Sidious even the playing field by disarming Yoda too. So there was no advantage to Yoda in the end.

Hard to give Yoda the advantage when he ran away. On top of the fact that Tempest will give you plenty of sources which state Yoda simply could not overpower Sidious.



No I haven't forgotten that. Which is why I don't go around preaching that whenever someone runs, it means they lost or were losing in combat.

Although the difference here is that Sith Ultimately would rather not risk their lives. Whilst Jedi are willing to give their lives for the greater good.

Like I said, I've not even once said Yoda's Lightsaber defeat over Sidious was not legitimate, I'm just pointing out your double standards.

You haven't pointed out ONE double standard yet....

First things first.. point me to the post where I state TPM Kenobi is greater than maul? Find that quote please or concede I never said such a thing. What I am saying and what is factual and beyond a shadow of a doubt.. that Kenobi has the most decisive ending of a fight between the two. There is no getting around the fact that Maul was turned into a midget by Kenobi and maul has never ever come close to inflicting that kinda of damage on kenobi.

Next.... Point me to where I said Sids can't give ground in a fight... Show me where I said this? Or again concede I never made such a claim. Nobody is saying you can't give ground.. but when you give ground and get disarmed in the process from a furious attack from your foe.. you were disarmed. It doesn't matter if you need to drop it to recover.. the attack MADE you need to drop it to recover. Besides any notion that Yoda didn't disarm Sids is made non canon by Lucas script.

Again... If anakin MADE kenobi drop his saber with his attacks and disarm him I wouldn't say ohhh he just slip it wasn't a disarming.. BuT HE DIDN'T... Only the emperor was disarmed from a furious attack and going on the defensive.

I have no idea what your point is about running.. but again... concede I never said running means losing.. YOU brought up that point that if anybody lost it was Yoda because he ran. I never even brought up Sids trying to run FIRST until you brought it up. So again... I'm not sure the point you're making here unless it's trying to talk yourself inot not making dumb points.

I'm okay with calling that fight a stalemate.. but if anybody had the advantage and looked superior it was Yoda.. and there can be no debate about that.

RotJ Sidious is, per a source of which I've forgotten its name, the most powerful being ever. Yoda goes down in a close fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I literally havent' seen you make a good point the whole time I've been here.






Finally we are in agreement KT!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
RotJ Sidious is, per a source of which I've forgotten its name, the most powerful being ever.

He's the most powerful sith lord in history as early as TPM and AotC, but this doesn't necessarily put him above Yoda. Even if we reasonably conclude that his strength in the Force has grown since RotS, we are left clueless as to his skills with a lightsaber.

I'm well aware of his status as the most powerful Sith. But the source mentions ''being'', which would include Yoda.

Does it really? I highly doubt that.

Smells like bullshit. He's certainly not more powerful than the Ones, Lotek'k, the World Razer, the Celestials and Darth Bandon.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


First things first.. point me to the post where I state TPM Kenobi is greater than maul? Find that quote please or concede I never said such a thing. What I am saying and what is factual and beyond a shadow of a doubt.. that Kenobi has the most decisive ending of a fight between the two. There is no getting around the fact that Maul was turned into a midget by Kenobi and maul has never ever come close to inflicting that kinda of damage on kenobi.

If you don't think TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul then I don't see why you keep bringing it up. Especially when you consistently bring it up to prove Kenobi > Maul.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next.... Point me to where I said Sids can't give ground in a fight... Show me where I said this? Or again concede I never made such a claim. Nobody is saying you can't give ground.. but when you give ground and get disarmed in the process from a furious attack from your foe.. you were disarmed. It doesn't matter if you need to drop it to recover.. the attack MADE you need to drop it to recover. Besides any notion that Yoda didn't disarm Sids is made non canon by Lucas script.

Yeah no ones claiming Yoda didn't disarm Sidious. Just that IF they fought on even ground that MAY not have happened, because Sidious could give ground and defend himself, like Mace did in the first 30 seconds of his fight with Sidious.

Also lets not forget that Sidious also disarmed Yoda, which we actually see on screen.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have no idea what your point is about running.. but again... concede I never said running means losing.. YOU brought up that point that if anybody lost it was Yoda because he ran. I never even brought up Sids trying to run FIRST until you brought it up. So again... I'm not sure the point you're making here unless it's trying to talk yourself inot not making dumb points.

So we agree that fleeing a fight doesn't necessarily prove anything about the actual one on one combat. That's fine

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm okay with calling that fight a stalemate.. but if anybody had the advantage and looked superior it was Yoda.. and there can be no debate about that.

This is an endless debate. But most people agree they were pretty equal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Show me that thread.

Arhael came up with that argument when I showed him what it said in the ROTS script. And I never once saw you use that argument until he kept posting it.

But to be fair, yes your right, if that argument was just coming from you I probably would have ignored it.

And yes Yoda will be able to fight at his best when he can bounce around due to his style. Not that Dooku wasn't fighting at his best.

And stop bitching about people who were clearly better debators than you. I don't exactly remember the last time you admitted you were wrong either, even when the evidence is clearly piling up against you.


I'm referring to the platform that Sidious and Yoda were fighting on, which put Sidious at a disadvantage (not having much room to move/leap around in) and gave Yoda a greater advantage than he would have on even ground (plenty of room to leap around in and dodge a limited Sidious' blows, and being able to stand on the higher part which took away his disadvantage of height and reach), not how Sidious was disarmed in the script, although the script did help to back my point up. I'm not looking for that debate, it was years ago, but I'm more than sure you remember it, because you argued up and down that Yoda had a greater advantage against Dooku than he did against Sidious because he had a wall to leap from.

Also, when was I "bitching" about anyone being a better debater than myself? I said Arhael and Nai are better debaters than people like you, who are not so good. I was just stating a fact. No need to get so offensive.

@KT, and I literally can't make out what you type most of the time. I'm not one to pick on one's grammar too much because I'm not the best at it, but you don't even try. You type like you're drunk and tweeking at the same time. How you expect anyone to take you seriously is beyond me lol. And BTW, I don't ride anyone's coattail, and I rarely even communicated with Zamp or Lightsnake. In fact, Zamp and I didn't even get along and we disagreed more than we agreed. Me and Gideon agree on a lot, and him and I formed a friendship because of our similar views, and I go to him for help sometimes because he has access to more sources than I do. So stop talking out of your ass just because I stated a fact about you.

neph u forgot bane!

I don't buy that quote for one second.

Also... Sids body was much worse off than it was in ROTS... His body over the years had been decaying more and more over the years. So clearly the vessel for Sids was better in ROTS and I think he was more fight ready than in ROTJ.. By ROTJ I don't even know how long it had been since he'd been in a real fight. It had been years and years. TO me ROTS Sids is more powerful.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm well aware of his status as the most powerful Sith. But the source mentions ''being'', which would include Yoda.

Does it say most powerful being in the galaxy or in history? Because at the time I'd of course put ROTJ Sidious over ROTJ Yoda who was literally on his death bed.

Sucks you can't use it in a debate since canon is against your opinion.

By the way, the quote occurs in a book set shortly after ANH.

With a crackle of energy the image solidified before the scientist's eyes. It was only a hologram, but it was a hologram of the most powerful being the galaxy had ever known. It was the Emperor himself.

-Galaxy of Fear: Planet Plague

So he may have surpassed Yoda in the Force, assuming the narrator is moderately omniscient, and referring to Force power rather than political (which actually seems more likely in context). This doesn't necessarily put him above Yoda in a combative context.

But yeah, it's safe to say he doesn't clear this gauntlet, due to probability if nothing else. You know, the likelihood of his defeating every opponent is less than 1, so...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sucks you can't use it in a debate since canon is against your opinion.

By the way, the quote occurs in a book set shortly after ANH.

With a crackle of energy the image solidified before the scientist's eyes. It was only a hologram, but it was a hologram of the most powerful being the galaxy had ever known. It was the Emperor himself.

-Galaxy of Fear: Planet Plague

Political power.

Also likely third person limited point of view.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm referring to the platform that Sidious and Yoda were fighting on, which put Sidious at a disadvantage (not having much room to move/leap around in) and gave Yoda a greater advantage than he would have on even ground (plenty of room to leap around in and dodge a limited Sidious' blows, and being able to stand on the higher part which took away his disadvantage of height and reach), not how Sidious was disarmed in the script, although the script did help to back my point up. I'm not looking for that debate, it was years ago, but I'm more than sure you remember it, because you argued up and down that Yoda had a greater advantage against Dooku than he did against Sidious because he had a wall to leap from.

If I'm not mistaken, Tempest is referring to the argument that Sidious may not have dropped his Saber "from the fear of falling" if the fight was on even ground. That's the argument Arhael began, which you seem to have adopted since.

Let's get one thing straight shall we, I've never claimed Dooku is either Yoda or Sidious's equal. I used to say Dooku and Sidious may be relatively on par in a Pure Fencing Match Up Only, but I don't believe that anymore after the Maul/Opress fight.

Besides I probably only interjected when you say things like the difference between them is "MASSIVE" or "HUGE", which AOTC doesn't seem to show. You can make all the excuses you want for that, but fact is Dooku can put up a fight against Yoda, so probably can against Sidious as well.

Dooku is below them both, but the difference isn't as HUGE as you tend to make out.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, when was I "bitching" about anyone being a better debater than myself? I said Arhael and Nai are better debaters than people like you, who are not so good. I was just stating a fact. No need to get so offensive.

You were bitching saying Arhael is another Nai who will never admit he's wrong. And you obviously thought he was wrong the majority of the time.

Oh stop being oversensitive. I just said stop bitching, it's not like your the epitome of how a debator should be around here.

Hardly. The following text notes how powerful the scientific were, but that the Emperor could snuff him out with a ''thought''.

Retcon.

lol

It has been retconned though.

I believe the Ones have been named as the most powerful beings in the Star Wars galaxy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If I'm not mistaken, Tempest is referring to the argument that Sidious may not have dropped his Saber "from the fear of falling" if the fight was on even ground. That's the argument Arhael began, which you seem to have adopted since.

Let's get one thing straight shall we, I've never claimed Dooku is either Yoda or Sidious's equal. I used to say Dooku and Sidious may be relatively on par in a Pure Fencing Match Up Only, but I don't believe that anymore after the Maul/Opress fight.

Besides I probably only interjected when you say things like the difference between them is "MASSIVE" or "HUGE", which AOTC doesn't seem to show. You can make all the excuses you want for that, but fact is Dooku can put up a fight against Yoda, so probably can against Sidious as well.

Dooku is below them both, but the difference isn't as HUGE as you tend to make out.





You were bitching saying Arhael is another Nai who will never admit he's wrong. And you obviously thought he was wrong the majority of the time.

Oh stop being oversensitive. I just said stop bitching, it's not like your the epitome of how a debator should be around here.


If Tempest was referring to my latest argument on the matter, well I didn't even mention the script. It seems as if he brought the script up to back the argument up. So you might be mistaken. And how did I adopt the argument from Arhael when I debated it with you before he even became a member here, I believe?

And comparing Yoda's duel with Dooku to the way Sidious would handle him is retarded. Yoda wasn't trying his hardest, otherwise he wouldn't have held back on attacking Dooku with the force. Yoda also had an attachment for Dooku, something Sidious doesn't share. Sidious is quite a bit faster than Dooku, far more powerful, far stronger, more skilled, etc. That's a fact, and I brought up many feats to prove it. Dooku might not be a non-factor like Fisto and others, but he is definitely not close to Sidious in combat. But I'm not going over this again with someone who has absolutely no grasp of context.

I thought Arhael was wrong in the majority of our debates, otherwise I wouldn't have debated with him, WTF? lol. But what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't change the fact that he is better than you at debating. And I also never claimed to be the "epitome" of how a debater should be around here, but I can say for sure that I don't constantly use double standards in my debates like you do. And again, when was I bitching about anyone being a better debater than myself?

As I said, don't get offensive, I was just stating a fact about you.

damn rivalry lol

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Tempest was referring to my latest argument on the matter, well I didn't even mention the script. It seems as if he brought the script up to back the argument up. So you might be mistaken. And how did I adopt the argument from Arhael when I debated it with you before he even became a member here, I believe?

The case you brought up before Arhael's time wasn't nearly as convincing as the one you adopoted from him.

Hey there's no shame in adopting arguments. All I did was point out to Tempest that the "strong case" he was referring to was really made strong by Arhael.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And comparing Yoda's duel with Dooku to the way Sidious would handle him is retarded. Yoda wasn't trying his hardest, otherwise he wouldn't have held back on attacking Dooku with the force. Yoda also had an attachment for Dooku, something Sidious doesn't share. Sidious is quite a bit faster than Dooku, far more powerful, far stronger, more skilled, etc. That's a fact, and I brought up many feats to prove it. Dooku might not be a non-factor like Fisto and others, but he is definitely not close to Sidious in combat. But I'm not going over this again with someone who has absolutely no grasp of context.

There is a definite gap between Sidious and Dooku. But it's not as HUGE as you would like to believe. Dooku would put up a half decent fight before he lost. His fights against Yoda and Mace Windu prove that.

And Lol at you being the one to lecture anyone on context.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It doesn't change the fact that he is better than you at debating.

LOL Yes he is. And MILES better than you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And I also never claimed to be the "epitome" of how a debater should be around here, but I can say for sure that I don't constantly use double standards in my debates like you do.

No you just come out with excuse upon excuse for the fights you don't like.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And again, when was I bitching about anyone being a better debater than myself?

Reading comprehension is your friend.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As I said, don't get offensive, I was just stating a fact about you.

LOL By getting Offensive. That's brilliant. And expected from you.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
damn rivalry lol

Welcome to Classic KMC.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The case you brought up before Arhael's time wasn't nearly as convincing as the one you adopoted from him.

Hey there's no shame in adopting arguments. All I did was point out to Tempest that the "strong case" he was referring to was really made strong by Arhael.



There is a definite gap between Sidious and Dooku. But it's not as HUGE as you would like to believe. Dooku would put up a half decent fight before he lost. His fights against Yoda and Mace Windu prove that.

And Lol at you being the one to lecture anyone on context.



LOL Yes he is. And MILES better than you.



No you just come out with excuse upon excuse for the fights you don't like.




Reading comprehension is your friend.



LOL By getting Offensive. That's brilliant. And expected from you.






Welcome to Classic KMC.


Gosh, you're dense. How can I adopt an argument from someone I didn't even know exists? Just because he convinced you better than I did, doesn't mean I adopted the argument from him. When Arhael provided the script, all it did was back up an argument I already made, nothing more.

Dooku's fights with Windu and Yoda were both contextually different than Sidious' fights with them. Try again.

By your logic, Vizsla and Barriss are close to Maul and Dooku. Ignoring the context of Anakin's fight with Barriss, I guess we can conclude that she is more powerful than Dooku, or at least his equal. No excuses, right? Oh, no, but you made plenty of excuses for those fights. See what I mean by double standards?

Flat open terrain makes this interesting.

1. Yellow
2. Yellow
3. Red
4. Yellow
5. Yellow
Boss: Red

Legend:-

Yellow = Tough
Red = Defeat

There is no way ROTJ Sids was above ROTS Sids... It was noted that Sids body was badly decaying and limited by the time of ROTJ... he was having to eradicated planets just to replenish his life force and maintain the body. In ROTS he wasn't near that level of decay... To say nothing of the fact that in ROTS and previous in the Clone wars he engaged in battles... by hte time of ROTJ.. I can't even think of any battles he had that he'd be battle ready like ROTS

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Gosh, you're dense. How can I adopt an argument from someone I didn't even know exists? Just because he convinced you better than I did, doesn't mean I adopted the argument from him. When Arhael provided the script, all it did was back up an argument I already made, nothing more.

Oh please you calling me dense is like a Gorilla calling you dense.

You've been making his exact case recently. You didn't used to. You just used to come out with crap like "Sidious couldn't use his full agility there."

Face it, you copied his argument despite your constant bitching of him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku's fights with Windu and Yoda were both contextually different than Sidious' fights with them. Try again.


Yes the context being the Jedi had to stop Dooku to stop an all out war Galaxy Wide War.

Try again.

Whatever feelings Yoda had for Dooku, would not compare to the feelings Kenobi had for Skywalker. The difference being Kenobi stopped Skywalker, despite Skywalker being more powerful than him. So Yoda, The Grand Master of the Jedi Order, really has no excuse not to STOMP Dooku if he could.

As for Mace, he was willing to give his life to take out Dooku when they fought in Obsession. But they fought completely evenly.

Not to mention the countless statements putting Mace and Dooku on par.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
By your logic, Vizsla and Barriss are close to Maul and Dooku. Ignoring the context of Anakin's fight with Barriss, I guess we can conclude that she is more powerful than Dooku, or at least his equal. No excuses, right? Oh, no, but you made plenty of excuses for those fights. See what I mean by double standards?

LOL What?

When have I made an excuse for Dark Side Barriss giving Skywalker a fight? She can give him a fight, good for her. She still got whooped and was constantly on the run from him. The official site makes it clear she was no match for him.

And Viszla gave Maul a fight too, great. Let's just ignore the canon that states Viszla was hopelessly outmatched for a second, it still doesn't matter considering Jango Fett has stalemated AOTC Kenobi and random Death Watch assassins have given TCW Kenobi good fights. Whilst being a warrior race, Viszla should be the best combatant of them all.


The difference is I don't just make up my own BS contexts, like "Oh I don't think Mace or Yoda would hurt Dooku, not even to stop a Galaxy Wide Conflict" LOL LOL

That's your issue. You have no idea what context is. You just make your own when a fight doesn't go the way you would like. Like with Yoda vs Dooku, Mace vs Dooku, Sidious vs Maul/Opress e.t.c. e.t.c.

Whilst I apply context where relevant: The reason for fighting, the fights fought before hand, the environment, and the state of mind of the combatants. So CONSISTENT showings are important to look at. But don't worry that's all pretty much beyond you.

Damn, you're killing me, DP.

That's basically what the argument was about: Sidious not having much room to use his full agility, whereas Yoda could. The script just backed my argument up even further. Palpatine lost balance and dropped his saber because of his limitations on the platform. Fighting on even ground, there would be no edge for Sidious to almost fall over, as his size wouldn't limit him the way it did on the platform. Again, how did I adopt that argument from Arhael? You just admitted that I used the argument before Arhael. Why are you contradicting yourself? What was the difference in me and Arhael's argument?

So you agree that Barriss is more powerful than Dooku, considering that Dooku got demolished in a matter of seconds after Anakin was visually pissed off, whereas Anakin was still struggling with Barriss even after he was visually pissed off? You did make the argument saying Anakin didn't want to hurt her. You also made the argument that Maul was holding back because he wanted to gain the other mandalorian's respect. You don't ignore context of fights when it's convenient for characters you favor, but you do when it's not convenient. Double standards.

And hey, I didn't say it was a smart move for Yoda to hold back against Dooku, but he clearly did, otherwise he wouldn't have held back on using the force when he had plenty of opportunities to. I mean, he didn't hold back on using the force against Sidious when he had the opportunity. And obviously the fate of the galaxy wasn't Yoda's first priority, otherwise he would have finished Dooku off instead of saving Obi Wan and Anakin. Try again.

And I'm still waiting for you to tell me when I was bitching about someone being a better debater than myself. Reading comprehension is my friend, whereas it's obviously your enemy. Making my irritation clear about others not admitting when they are wrong is not bitching about people being better debaters. lol

I'm bored, so continue to entertain me with more stupidity.

^surprising stance. I thought you were more of a Yoda fan.

I am. My username is to throw people off.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Damn, you're killing me, DP.

That's basically what the argument was about: Sidious not having much room to use his full agility, whereas Yoda could. The script just backed my argument up even further. Palpatine lost balance and dropped his saber because of his limitations on the platform. Fighting on even ground, there would be no edge for Sidious to almost fall over, as his size wouldn't limit him the way it did on the platform. Again, how did I adopt that argument from Arhael? You just admitted that I used the argument before Arhael. Why are you contradicting yourself? What was the difference in me and Arhael's argument?

So you agree that Barriss is more powerful than Dooku, considering that Dooku got demolished in a matter of seconds after Anakin was visually pissed off, whereas Anakin was still struggling with Barriss even after he was visually pissed off? You did make the argument saying Anakin didn't want to hurt her. You also made the argument that Maul was holding back because he wanted to gain the other mandalorian's respect. You don't ignore context of fights when it's convenient for characters you favor, but you do when it's not convenient. Double standards.

And hey, I didn't say it was a smart move for Yoda to hold back against Dooku, but he clearly did, otherwise he wouldn't have held back on using the force when he had plenty of opportunities to. I mean, he didn't hold back on using the force against Sidious when he had the opportunity. And obviously the fate of the galaxy wasn't Yoda's first priority, otherwise he would have finished Dooku off instead of saving Obi Wan and Anakin. Try again.

And I'm still waiting for you to tell me when I was bitching about someone being a better debater than myself. Reading comprehension is my friend, whereas it's obviously your enemy. Making my irritation clear about others not admitting when they are wrong is not bitching about people being better debaters. lol

I'm bored, so continue to entertain me with more stupidity.

actually the script doesnt' back up the claim that the only reason sids lost his saber was because he was off balance. He was off balance because of Yoda's furious ATTACX. He didn't just slip on a wet senate pod. Yoda attack caused him to do so. Lucas own script also notes that Yoda DISARMS him in saber combat. Any notion otherwise taking credit away from yoda disarming sids is non canon.

BTW Sidious I was spot on when I said you rode the coattails of others which you admit. Just because you spin it to ohhhh well me and Gideon just happened to agree on a lot of things and he had more sources than me to cite... is exactly riding he coattails of others. Glad you concede that point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Damn, you're killing me, DP.

Of course I am.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's basically what the argument was about: Sidious not having much room to use his full agility, whereas Yoda could.


That was your original unconvincing version of the argumet.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The script just backed my argument up even further. Palpatine lost balance and dropped his saber because of his limitations on the platform. Fighting on even ground, there would be no edge for Sidious to almost fall over, as his size wouldn't limit him the way it did on the platform. Again, how did I adopt that argument from Arhael? You just admitted that I used the argument before Arhael. Why are you contradicting yourself? What was the difference in me and Arhael's argument?

This is the more along the lines of what Arhael proposed. He strengthened your argument about 100 times. You know after you copied it and are now even trying to take credit for it. But anyone who knows you knows your not smart enough to come up with that.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So you agree that Barriss is more powerful than Dooku, considering that Dooku got demolished in a matter of seconds after Anakin was visually pissed off, whereas Anakin was still struggling with Barriss even after he was visually pissed off?

What the f***? Dooku fought off Anakin and Kenobi and almost took them both out.

And in all the fights before that Skywalker never once managed to defeat Dooku.

How in the World of SW is that comparable to Barriss being no match for Skywalker the one time they fought?!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You did make the argument saying Anakin didn't want to hurt her.

Nah. But he did need her to save Ashoka. Not sure how much of a difference that made to the fight, if any.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You also made the argument that Maul was holding back because he wanted to gain the other mandalorian's respect.

He held back on his Force Powers. Which we know because 1) He never used them and 2) We see his equal/inferior Opress casually TK Death Watch warriors around - Consistency.

Like I said, Context includes ON Screen Reasons given for a fight. Like "Destroy the Sith we Must" obviously means no holding back. But "How do I get Viszla's men to follow me" means - Let's think about how we're going to go about this.

So we were FLAT OUT given the CONTEXT of that fight ON SCREEN. The reason for it wasn't just to outright murder Viszla, but to win over his warriors.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You don't ignore context of fights when it's convenient for characters you favor, but you do when it's not convenient. Double standards.

No I don't ignore context given to us and stated on screen.

I ignore your BS Context which you make up every time you don't like the way a fight went like:

Yoda held back against Dooku - Because I say so LOL

Mace held back against Dooku - Because I say so LOL

Sidious was fighting at 1/2 speed against Maul/Opress - Because I say so LOL


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And hey, I didn't say it was a smart move for Yoda to hold back against Dooku, but he clearly did, otherwise he wouldn't have held back on using the force when he had plenty of opportunities to. I mean, he didn't hold back on using the force against Sidious when he had the opportunity. And obviously the fate of the galaxy wasn't Yoda's first priority, otherwise he would have finished Dooku off instead of saving Obi Wan and Anakin. Try again.

He did fight harder against Sidious, no doubt about that, that was literally about the fate of the Galaxy and the Jedi. Plus he was pushed harder by Sidious's power. But he was trying to stop Dooku.

And he even considered his fight with him good enough to not need to spar for a while after that- "Schism."

Bottom line- If Yoda could have stomped Dooku with ease- He would have.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me when I was bitching about someone being a better debater than myself. Reading comprehension is my friend, whereas it's obviously your enemy. Making my irritation clear about others not admitting when they are wrong is not bitching about people being better debaters. lol

I'm bored, so continue to entertain me with more stupidity.

Reading comprehension is your friend. But clearly you ignoring your friend.

Quote me where I said you were bitching about someone being a better debator than you. Then we will find out whose more stupid out of me and you.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
actually the script doesnt' back up the claim that the only reason sids lost his saber was because he was off balance. He was off balance because of Yoda's furious ATTACX. He didn't just slip on a wet senate pod. Yoda attack caused him to do so. Lucas own script also notes that Yoda DISARMS him in saber combat. Any notion otherwise taking credit away from yoda disarming sids is non canon.


Except on even ground, Sidious would have room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's assault, whereas he couldn't on the platform because he was at risk of falling over the edge, which is, according to the script, how Sidious dropped his saber. What's hard to get about that?


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
BTW Sidious I was spot on when I said you rode the coattails of others which you admit. Just because you spin it to ohhhh well me and Gideon just happened to agree on a lot of things and he had more sources than me to cite... is exactly riding he coattails of others. Glad you concede that point.


Yes, if I don't have a source and he does, I'd rather ask him for it than to expect others to take my word for it, dumbass. That's riding his coattail? lol. You don't even know what that means.

BTW, serious question, did you make it passed the second grade?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


BTW, serious question, did you make it passed the second grade?

This is quite funny coming from the guy who a few years ago was claiming Mace could be less Powerful than both Sidious and Yoda and still be the SECOND most powerful person in the Galaxy LOL LOL You have given me some laughs over the years SIDIOUS 66!

So serious question, did you actually make it past Second Grade in the end? Because you were clearly stuck there for a while, not being able to count yet.



Oh and this is what I said:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


And stop bitching about people who were clearly better debators than you.


And this is what you're asking me:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And I'm still waiting for you to tell me when I was bitching about someone being a better debater than myself.


The underlined part is the difference between what I said and what you're claiming I said.

Clearly maths wasn't your only weak point in school.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, serious question, did you make it passed the second grade?

*past.

They teach you that in 2nd grade.

Just saying.

^ LOL

Are you sure it isn't 'passed'? Passed means to 'To move on or ahead; proceed' whereas 'past' refers to the 'The time before the present'.

Well, Sidious 66 intended to use an adverb...passed isn't an adverb. Or normally an adjective.

Hmm...with full rest (as the OP says) Yoda's chances are pretty good.

1. wins
2. wins
3. wins
4. wins
5. 50/50
Boss: 55/45
RotJ Sidious shoudl be rusty with a saber, and while his Force powers are most probably better than in RotS, in combat I think Yoda will have a very slight edge.

You would never say did you move passed the second grade.. that isn't how passed in used in that context.

Idious.. it doesn't matter about the senate pod and falling because that was the same for both. You act like Yoda had magnets on his feet and couldn't fall as well. When in fact we know Yoda fell at the end because he was on the EDGE and Sids was in the pod. Yet, you wanna claim it was easier for Sids to fall out of the pod? Are you really trying to be stupid or does it just come naturally to you? Both could've been knocked from the pod and thus that is cancelled out. Palps wasn't anymore vulnerable to falling out than Yoda, thus that point is moot. What's key though.. is that Yoda's ATTACK CAUSED Palps to drop his weapon. Period end of story. Glad you did concede not being able to argue stuff on your own without the help of Gideon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was your original unconvincing version of the argumet.


Yet the script supported it. Sorry you needed further convincing to realize something that is obvious.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is the more along the lines of what Arhael proposed. He strengthened your argument about 100 times.


How? By stating the same thing I said, and then quoted the script which further supported my argument? Yes I guess he helped.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What the f***? Dooku fought off Anakin and Kenobi and almost took them both out.


But got demolished after Anakin was visually angry, not so much the case with Barriss.

Remember, no excuses. Barriss must be better than Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And in all the fights before that Skywalker never once managed to defeat Dooku.


But he did in ROTS. No excuses.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How on in the World of SW is that comparable to Barriss being no match for Skywalker the one time they fought?!


I explained already. She gave him a good struggle even after he became angry. And he had to use a combination of his force powers and saber skill to subdue her, whereas he just battered Dooku with his saber alone.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. But he did need her to save Ashoka. Not sure how much of a difference that made to the fight, if any.


No excuses, he struggled with her. So you're right, it didn't make a difference.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He held back on his Force Powers. Which we know because 1) He never used them and 2) We see his equal/inferior Opress casually TK Death Watch warriors around.


Wow, same way Yoda held back his force powers on Dooku.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like I said, Context includes ON Screen Reasons given for a fight. Like "Destroy the Sith we Must" obviously means no holding back. But "How do I get Viszla's men to follow me" is just something completely different.


Where is it stated that the only way they would follow him is if he defeated Vizsla in a strict saber duel? I mean, you accuse me of making things up when I think logically, so what are you doing here? Are you making excuses as well. And BTW, Maul's struggle with Viszla in swordplay, and being on the receiving end of plenty of physical attacks, would suggest that Vizsla is far superior to Savage, and far stronger, considering how easily Maul outskilled and overpowered Savage.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So we were FLAT OUT given the CONTEXT of that fight ON SCREEN. The reason for it wasn't just to outright murder Viszla, but to win over his warriors.


I didn't see them mentioning any rules for the fight. I mean, Vizsla was using blasters, missile launchers, cable, darts, etc. Why couldn't Maul use the force? Where is it stated that Maul wasn't allowed to use the force?

Remember, no excuses.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No I don't ignore context given to us and stated on screen.


You do all the time.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I ignore your BS Context which you make up every time you don't like the way a fight went like:


Which fight did I not like?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda held back against Dooku - Because I say so LOL


So Yoda didn't hold back on using the force?

Or is it that he did hold back on using the force, but then suddenly decided to get real serious after he whipped his saber out?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace held back against Dooku - Because I say so LOL


When did I say this?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious was fighting at 1/2 speed against Maul/Opress - Because I say so LOL


No, I say Sidious wasn't using his full speed because of the fact that he has displayed superior speed feats, and the fact that he logically wouldn't use his full speed against someone he wasn't trying to kill, or someone he was clearly toying with, or in a fight that he was enjoying. Why would he want to end his enjoyment so quickly?

You used almost the same logic when you said Maul could have used the force on Vizsla due to the fact that we see Savage using it against other Death Watch warriors.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He did fight harder against Sidious, no doubt about that, that was literally about the fate of the Galaxy and the Jedi. Plus he was pushed harder by Sidious's power. But he was trying to stop Dooku.


So if he wasn't fighting Dooku as hard as he was against Sidious, then that would suggest that he wasn't fighting his hardest. In other words: he was holding back.

Are you even trying?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he even considered his fight with him good enough to not need to spar for a while after that- "Schism."


So he considered his duel with Dooku as nothing more than a good sparring match? Ok.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Bottom line- If Yoda could have stomped Dooku with ease- He would have.


You already admitted that he wasn't fighting Dooku his hardest, which would suggest that he wouldn't have even if he could have.

Really, are you even trying?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Reading comprehension is your friend. But clearly you ignoring your friend.


Well it's definitely your enemy.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Quote me where I said you were bitching about someone being a better debator than you. Then we will find out whose more stupid out of me and you.


Ok, now I feel like I fell into the trap of a troll.

You can't be serious. SMH

Originally posted by Master Han
*past.

They teach you that in 2nd grade.

Just saying.


Actually, *past is what I put at first, which is why I made the edit. But I figured passed the right way like Neph described.

Regardless, it's a something that can be easily mistaken. And I never claimed to be the best at grammar or spelling. But there is no excuse for the way KT writes. He doesn't even try.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You would never say did you move passed the second grade.. that isn't how passed in used in that context.


You didn't know that until Han brought it to your attention. Stop.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Idious.. it doesn't matter about the senate pod and falling because that was the same for both. You act like Yoda had magnets on his feet and couldn't fall as well. When in fact we know Yoda fell at the end because he was on the EDGE and Sids was in the pod. Yet, you wanna claim it was easier for Sids to fall out of the pod? Are you really trying to be stupid or does it just come naturally to you? Both could've been knocked from the pod and thus that is cancelled out. Palps wasn't anymore vulnerable to falling out than Yoda, thus that point is moot. What's key though.. is that Yoda's ATTACK CAUSED Palps to drop his weapon. Period end of story. Glad you did concede not being able to argue stuff on your own without the help of Gideon


Yet we see Yoda leaping around evading Sidious's attacks during the saber duel on the platform, whereas Sidious couldn't.

That doesn't matter... they terrain was the same for both... In fact... Sidious was less likely to fall than Yoda was seeing as it was actually IN the pod and Yoda was on the edge. To even argue otherwise is bordering on stupidity.. nothing new for you I know, but still pretty damn dumb. Yoda's ATTACK MADE HIM DROP HIS SABER.. PERIOD. What is so hard for you to understand here... he didn't just trip on his own.. the attack MADE him to do that.. thus Yoda disarmed him.

S66, I do believe DP has recanted of his heretical ways some time ago and has adopted a more logical, mature view of things. Which is to say my view of things.

This is not the same DP who was running around saying Maul and Opress gave Sidious hell or that Obi-Wan can solo both brothers at once or that Yoda fled Coruscant in ROTS because Sidious was a skilled rhetorician.

Temp... Did Yoda disarm Sidious or did he just slip and drop his weapon?

He slipped and dropped his weapon... because of Yoda.

Sidious definitely disarmed Yoda, though.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That doesn't matter... they terrain was the same for both


Yes, it does matter. The terrain wasn't the same for both. Yoda, being a lot smaller than Sidious, had more room to leap around in and evade Sidious' attacks, whereas Sidious had to rely mostly on his saber to defend himself with, as he didn't have the luxury of leaping around like Yoda did. Yoda had far more room to maneuver.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In fact... Sidious was less likely to fall than Yoda was seeing as it was actually IN the pod and Yoda was on the edge. To even argue otherwise is bordering on stupidity.. nothing new for you I know, but still pretty damn dumb. Yoda's ATTACK MADE HIM DROP HIS SABER.. PERIOD. What is so hard for you to understand here... he didn't just trip on his own.. the attack MADE him to do that.. thus Yoda disarmed him.


You're beyond stupid. Yoda wasn't less likely to fall because he had places to jump to, Sidious didn't. The script makes it clear that Sidious dropped his saber after nearly falling over the edge, not because Yoda knocked the saber out of his hands. So tell me how Sidious would have nearly fell over an edge on even ground?

I'm out.

Oh, and KT I missed your post where you asked Tempest if Sidious dropped his saber from slipping. You said I rode his coattail because I sometimes ask him for sources, yet you're asking him whether or not Sidious slipped when you supposedly read the script yourself? What would you call that? Sucking his coattail?

@Tempest, no, DP is going back to his old ways. Don't let him fool you, I thought he changed once before too. But I guess stupidity can't be cured. Maybe it goes in remission from time to time, IDK.

I guess I did ignore my friend, reading comprehension. DP said I was bitching about people who were clearly better debaters than me, not that I was bitching about them being better debaters. My bad.

Still, though. Lol @ Arhael being a better debater than me. Nai is a better debater than me at some things like interpreting literature perhaps, but he's not when it comes to arguing combat ability in a vs forum.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He slipped and dropped his weapon... because of Yoda.

Sidious definitely disarmed Yoda, though.

I remember the great Gideon's once suggesting that the script should not be taken as the final version of the confrontation we see in the movies, and that Yoda never actually disarmed Sidious. I'd trust his word over yours, loser.





Even if Yoda had the upper hand in the saber duel, a notion that I currently adhere to, the fight would still be quite the tossup; maybe a 55/45 split at best. If you actually wanted to look at the gauntlet from a probability standpoint and recognize that the chances of Yoda's winning each match is less than one, he probably doesn't clear. But we don't actually consider that, lol.

Yoda takes the majority against every combatant, probably including RotS Sidious, and possibly excepting RotJ Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Han
I remember the great Gideon's once suggesting that the script should not be taken as the final version of the confrontation we see in the movies, and that Yoda never actually disarmed Sidious. I'd trust his word over yours, loser.

The great Gideon was wise to encourage hesitation in the script's account of events, given that it would impart onto Yoda a sharp moment of profound, unparalleled idiocy for having the Dark Lord at his mercy and then relenting for no reason.

Originally posted by Master Han
I remember the great Gideon's once suggesting that the script should not be taken as the final version of the confrontation we see in the movies, and that Yoda never actually disarmed Sidious. I'd trust his word over yours, loser.

"The great Gideon's?" lol, and you had your nerve to correct me on spelling.


Anyway, he did suggest that because Yoda promising to destroy the sith, and then retreating when it seemed as if he had Sidious defeated, seemed contradicting with Yoda's intention in the movie. But IMO, if you look at the entire duel, without having to ignore the script, the only logical explanation as to why Yoda retreated was because he couldn't contain Sidious's lightning much longer with his saber. Most people argue otherwise because the script says that it looked as if Sidious was doomed when the lightning started to arch back towards him, but that doesn't prove Yoda wasn't having difficulty in redirecting the lightning with his saber. In fact, later on in the fight, Sidious blasts Yoda's weapon right out of his hands, so evidently, Sidious' lightning may have been too strong for Yoda to continue containing with his saber.

I was under the impression that a script was just lines and sequences for the actors to follow, not a novel that necessarily has to go into detail on what a character is feeling, and thus does not necessarily have to tell us that Yoda retreated because he was having difficulty in containing the lightning.

Well played, S66. Well played. But this cannot be; my two apprentices shan't be allowed to claw viciously at one another's throat.

BTW, I answered your q on FB.

I got it, but you didn't give me the full quote. lol

Oh you wanted the full quote? Give me a few and I'll just PM you the scan here.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I guess I did ignore my friend, reading comprehension. DP said I was bitching about people who were clearly better debaters than me, not that I was bitching about them being better debaters. My bad.



Finally you got it I did tell you several times to go back and check. But you tend to ignore stuff you don't like or don't want to hear.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


@Tempest, no, DP is going back to his old ways. Don't let him fool you, I thought he changed once before too. But I guess stupidity can't be cured. Maybe it goes in remission from time to time, IDK.

It doesn't help when you come in here from the get go talking about what a bad debator I am, putting me in league with SWL. Just so you know I don't rank you particularly high either. Me and you will obviously never get along. Let's just leave it at that.

I could rebuttal everything you wrote but honestly can't be arsed because we will just go around in circles on it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"The great Gideon's?" lol, and you had your nerve to correct me on spelling.



ROFLAMO - wut?

I'm using "suggesting" as a gerund. Should I not therefore have the possessive?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, it does matter. The terrain wasn't the same for both. Yoda, being a lot smaller than Sidious, had more room to leap around in and evade Sidious' attacks, whereas Sidious had to rely mostly on his saber to defend himself with, as he didn't have the luxury of leaping around like Yoda did. Yoda had far more room to maneuver.





You're beyond stupid. Yoda wasn't less likely to fall because he had places to jump to, Sidious didn't. The script makes it clear that Sidious dropped his saber after nearly falling over the edge, not because Yoda knocked the saber out of his hands. So tell me how Sidious would have nearly fell over an edge on even ground?

I'm out.


You're honestly one of the dumbest people on this site. The terrain was EXACTLY the same for both. Just because you claim one could navigate the EXACT same terrain better.. doesn't make the terrain NOT THE SAME FOR BOTH. It was the same.

Another idiotic post from Idious.... Tell me... DId Sids slip on a banana peel? Or was it Yoda's attack that forced sids back and to regain his footing? Which was it? We all know the answer... Yoda diarmed Sids and the script makes this clear

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, and KT I missed your post where you asked Tempest if Sidious dropped his saber from slipping. You said I rode his coattail because I sometimes ask him for sources, yet you're asking him whether or not Sidious slipped when you supposedly read the script yourself? What would you call that? Sucking his coattail?

@Tempest, no, DP is going back to his old ways. Don't let him fool you, I thought he changed once before too. But I guess stupidity can't be cured. Maybe it goes in remission from time to time, IDK.

Idious just being Idious again... Is English your first language? You do understand that I wasn't asking him what happened... I was asking him if he viewed the scene as Yoda making Sidious drop his saber or if he took your idiotic view that Yoda didn't disarm Sids.. Sids merely dropped his saber. I thought you could tell the difference but I forgot I was dealing with Idious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"The great Gideon's?" lol, and you had your nerve to correct me on spelling.


Anyway, he did suggest that because Yoda promising to destroy the sith, and then retreating when it seemed as if he had Sidious defeated, seemed contradicting with Yoda's intention in the movie. But IMO, if you look at the entire duel, without having to ignore the script, the only logical explanation as to why Yoda retreated was because he couldn't contain Sidious's lightning much longer with his saber. Most people argue otherwise because the script says that it looked as if Sidious was doomed when the lightning started to arch back towards him, but that doesn't prove Yoda wasn't having difficulty in redirecting the lightning with his saber. In fact, later on in the fight, Sidious blasts Yoda's weapon right out of his hands, so evidently, Sidious' lightning may have been too strong for Yoda to continue containing with his saber.

I was under the impression that a script was just lines and sequences for the actors to follow, not a novel that necessarily has to go into detail on what a character is feeling, and thus does not necessarily have to tell us that Yoda retreated because he was having difficulty in containing the lightning.

This wasn't well played at all... You do realize that when the script notes that the emperor was seemed doomed as the lighting was being shoved back down his throat.. was at the END of the fight and Yoda no longer had his saber. Did you watch the movie or read the script?

Lol, thats not true. Did YOU read the script?

"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space.

....

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment.

YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA."

That makes no sense though as the movie is the final version of the script. In the movie.. the point where the emperor seems doomed and the lighting was arcing back... Yoda didn't have his saber and he was physically overpowiering it and sending it back with his bare hand.. at which point the emperor has a look of doom on his face. Clearly the sequence of the lighting and the emperor looking doomed was exactly as we see it in the movie. Sids never hit yoda with lighitng and sent him backwards causing him to drop his saber.. he simply blasts it out of Yoda's hand and Yoda doesn't even move. As I said.. the movie is the final version of the script and that is not where the emperor is doomed

That's your opinion based on Palpatine's face expressions. It doesn't contradict the script and if it doesn't cotradict the script, the script remains canon.

actually it most certainly does... The only expression of doom from the emperor we see is when Yoda is WITHOUT his saber and the lighting is arching back at him. This isn't my opinoin it is in the highest form of canon. Sids also doesn't knock Yoda back with his lighting and then yoda drops his saber and it wasn't in mid air either... Yoda lands on the pod.. ignites his saber.. .and palps blasts it out of his hand and yoda barely moves (is NOT thrown back) These aren't my opinions these are right there for all to see. The movie is the final version of the script...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're honestly one of the dumbest people on this site. The terrain was EXACTLY the same for both. Just because you claim one could navigate the EXACT same terrain better.. doesn't make the terrain NOT THE SAME FOR BOTH. It was the same.


You're the ONLY one who seems to be having a hard time understanding.

A confined platform they were fighting limited Sidious far more than it did Yoda, as he is much bigger than Yoda. Yoda however wasn't limited, as you can easily see, if you watched the movie (obviously you didn't), that Yoda was capable of using his full agility and acrobatic nature, hence all the leaps he was doing. Also fighting on the higher part of the platform took away some of Yoda's disadvantage of height and reach, an advantage he doesn't have on even surface.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Another idiotic post from Idious.... Tell me... DId Sids slip on a banana peel? Or was it Yoda's attack that forced sids back and to regain his footing? Which was it? We all know the answer... Yoda diarmed Sids and the script makes this clear


Seriously, why are you having a hard time grasping this?

It was Yoda's attack that caused Sidious to nearly fall off of the podium, which is how Sidious dropped his saber. No one disputed Yoda being the cause of Sidious almost falling over the edge. But had they been fighting on even ground, Sidious wouldn't have had an edge to nearly fall over, as he would have had far more room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's "ferocious" attack, room he didn't have on the podium, unless he wanted to fall off.

This is "duh" type of shit.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Idious just being Idious again... Is English your first language? You do understand that I wasn't asking him what happened... I was asking him if he viewed the scene as Yoda making Sidious drop his saber or if he took your idiotic view that Yoda didn't disarm Sids..


Yeah, except for the fact that you clearly asked him what happened, not what he thought. Regardless, why would need someone else's view on the matter if your mind is already made up? So again, if me asking him for a source that I don't remember or that I'm unfamiliar with is riding his coattail, then you asking him for his view must be you sucking on his coattail. At least I have a reason to ask for a source, which is to back up some of my arguments, whereas you have absolutely no reason to ask him for his view when your mind is already made up. I mean, would you ask him if he thought the sky was blue? Either you're having doubt in your own argument (which you should if you had any ounce of intelligence in you), or you just have a personal interest in him.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That makes no sense though as the movie is the final version of the script. In the movie.. the point where the emperor seems doomed and the lighting was arcing back... Yoda didn't have his saber and he was physically overpowiering it and sending it back with his bare hand.. at which point the emperor has a look of doom on his face. Clearly the sequence of the lighting and the emperor looking doomed was exactly as we see it in the movie.


Wow, you are clueless. You don't even know what scene you're arguing about.

SMH

Yoda still has better saber feats.

Not really. Blitzing through saber masters is actually better than anything I've seen from Yoda saber-wise.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're the ONLY one who seems to be having a hard time understanding.

A confined platform they were fighting limited Sidious far more than it did Yoda, as he is much bigger than Yoda. Yoda however wasn't limited, as you can easily see, if you watched the movie (obviously you didn't), that Yoda was capable of using his full agility and acrobatic nature, hence all the leaps he was doing. Also fighting on the higher part of the platform took away some of Yoda's disadvantage of height and reach, an advantage he doesn't have on even surface.





Seriously, why are you having a hard time grasping this?

It was Yoda's attack that caused Sidious to nearly fall off of the podium, which is how Sidious dropped his saber. No one disputed Yoda being the cause of Sidious almost falling over the edge. But had they been fighting on even ground, Sidious wouldn't have had an edge to nearly fall over, as he would have had far more room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's "ferocious" attack, room he didn't have on the podium, unless he wanted to fall off.

This is "duh" type of shit.





Yeah, except for the fact that you clearly asked him what happened, not what he thought. Regardless, why would need someone else's view on the matter if your mind is already made up? So again, if me asking him for a source that I don't remember or that I'm unfamiliar with is riding his coattail, then you asking him for his view must be you sucking on his coattail. At least I have a reason to ask for a source, which is to back up some of my arguments, whereas you have absolutely no reason to ask him for his view when your mind is already made up. I mean, would you ask him if he thought the sky was blue? Either you're having doubt in your own argument (which you should if you had any ounce of intelligence in you), or you just have a personal interest in him.





Wow, you are clueless. You don't even know what scene you're arguing about.

SMH

Idious is back.. I like this site with him back...

First, english isn't your first language i can see... you said the terrain wasn't the same for both.. When in fact the terrain was EXACTLY the same for both. What you meant to say is that Yoda can navigate said terrain better than Sids can... but that doesn't mean it's not the same... Either could've been on the edge or in the pod and it would be the same terrain for both.

Second, you feeling like Yoda could navigate it better is nothing more than your opinion. Can you cite me the quote in the book or movie which says Yoda had the advantage in pod fighting over Sids. Please post that quote or stop giving me YOUR OPINION on who had the advantage. You're not a canon source and that is merely your conjecture.

third, I could easily say Palps had the edge in the pod because he's heavier and was actually INSIDE the pod... Thus any TK push or lighting feedback/explosion would more likely knock the lighter yoda off (he was on the edge) and not the heavier Sids who's in the pod. Which is EXACTLY what we see happen in the movie. So really, the terrain could easily be argued favors Sids not yoda.

Fourth, you have no clue do you.. the movie is the final version of the script.. SO tell me... Where in the movie does it show Sids hiting yoda "mid air" as he's jumping over causing him to fly back and drop his swrord? Tell me where that is please? The part where the emperor seems doomed is clearly before the lighting explosion which knocks them both back as the emperor is starting to get overwhelmed and a look of sheer terror on his face as Yoda is buckeling down and overpowering him. That wasn't a look of terror and doom? Again the movie is the final version of the script. Stuff not shown in the movie.. we go by the script.. i.e. sids being disarmed and almost falling over... The part where Yoda losses his weapon and how.. and the look of terror and oom o nthe emperor the movie overrides the script as we see the final version play out as Lucas wanted. These aren't hard concepts to grasp.

Lastly, me asking for another opinion on a matter means I riding somebody's coattails? WTF.. i wish I knew what you looked like so I could see if you're as dumb as you look to. I asked for his opinion because he's a pretty versed guy and I watned to see if he shared your idoitic view. if he did, at that point, I would also start debating the matter with him (while laughing at him). Me asking for his view.. is a far far cry from letting others argue for you and just adopting their arguments likea parrot. They are words apart and not mutually inclusive. Did you make it "passed" 1st grade?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not really. Blitzing through saber masters is actually better than anything I've seen from Yoda saber-wise.

Especially since Yoda is conspicuously pressed by Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not really. Blitzing through saber masters is actually better than anything I've seen from Yoda saber-wise.

Yes and this same guy who killed the masters got DISARMED and beaten in saber combat by yoda... thus that is the GREATER feat. I mean you can't be this dumb. Yoda doing so to somebody with high end feats is a higher end feat. You understand how feats work right? To say nothign of the fact that yoda's never lost a saber duel.. While Sids has lost to Mace and yoda. Yeah Yoda's are clearly better.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Especially since Yoda is conspicuously pressed by Dooku.

see above

Tell me again, KT, which scene are we arguing about? lmao

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not really. Blitzing through saber masters is actually better than anything I've seen from Yoda saber-wise.
More of a speed feat than saber feat.

Lol sids ur so dumb

lol sids

http://media.tumblr.com/20701120a4c02fdeeff272cf625c05da/tumblr_inline_msblx6CsG41qz4rgp.png

lol

Lol Neph ur lyke rlly dhmb

Dumber than me?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
actually it most certainly does... The only expression of doom from the emperor we see is when Yoda is WITHOUT his saber and the lighting is arching back at him. This isn't my opinoin it is in the highest form of canon. Sids also doesn't knock Yoda back with his lighting and then yoda drops his saber and it wasn't in mid air either... Yoda lands on the pod.. ignites his saber.. .and palps blasts it out of his hand and yoda barely moves (is NOT thrown back) These aren't my opinions these are right there for all to see. The movie is the final version of the script...

Watch the saber fight again. Palpatine is grunting and howling when they are dueling in the pod, this goes in line with Sidious being disarmed.

Also I wish they would have kept this in the movie.
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/8e/Yodakick.JPG

@Intrepid- speed is an important part of saber fighting. It can be just as important as sheer technical skill. Someone can have more technical skill and still lose to someone who has superior speed. Sidious blitzing those masters is still a saber feat. If you're suggesting that Yoda is more skilled, well I agree, as he seems to have more accolades than Sidious regarding his saber skills.

I never says it wasn't in line with sidous being disarmed.. what I'm talking about is Yoda being disarmed and it not happening like in the script thus the movie is what we go by. Same for the emperor getting lighting arcing back.. this again didn't happen when Yoda had his saber but when Yoda had no saber and the emperor seemed doomed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@Intrepid- speed is an important part of saber fighting. It can be just as important as sheer technical skill. Someone can have more technical skill and still lose to someone who has superior speed. Sidious blitzing those masters is still a saber feat. If you're suggesting that Yoda is more skilled, well I agree, as he seems to have more accolades than Sidious regarding his saber skills.

What he is saying is abundantly clear.. Yoda disarming Sids and beating him in sabers... IS a saber feat... and a greater one than what Sids did to the Jedi. If sids is able to do that to the jedi... and Yoda is able to do that to Sids... well then... That is the better feat. To say nothing of Sids losing twice in saber combat to Mace and Yoda and yoda not having any losses in saber combat. Yoda has the greater feats and that can't be questioned really.

Answer my question, KT.

don't like agreeing with KT, but it had to be done.

I'm still waiting for my answer...

was yoda disarmed of his saber while in mid air and knocked back against the control panel?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
don't like agreeing with KT, but it had to be done.

"he loves me.. he really loves me" Awww shucks!!! lol

Sidious showed immense combat skill when beating up Maul and Opress Imo. From Jar Kai, through deadly kicks, to immense maneuverability.

And Nick Gillard once said he's trained in every form of Saber combat (or something like that).

The Clone Wars episode guide says he's a master of all 7 forms of dueling. The Clone Wars character encyclopedia says Yoda is one as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Watch the saber fight again. Palpatine is grunting and howling when they are dueling in the pod, this goes in line with Sidious being disarmed.

Also I wish they would have kept this in the movie.
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/8e/Yodakick.JPG

Why is Yoda talking normally?

Originally posted by Stigma

^ I pretty much agree with the above, however I would say that Yoda has a bit better chance at taking down RotJ Sidious than his RotS incarnation.

Of course, this is only my gut feeling. To me RotJ Sidious is most probably more powerful in the Force, but not necessarily a more powerful combatant given his possibly rusty saber skills at that time.

Well, Sidious's best Force feats occur after his RotS incarnation, and while his saber skills could have deteriorated, by that same logic they should have already declined by RotS. And I don't see why Sidious wouldn't practice his saber techniques, to keep Vader in his place, if nothing else.

But then again, I could say the same about Obi Wan. I guess everybody just sat on their asses and grew old.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why is Yoda talking normally?

Because he was horizontally kicking the Emperor. biscuits

Originally posted by Master Han
Well, Sidious's best Force feats occur after his RotS incarnation, and while his saber skills could have deteriorated, by that same logic they should have already declined by RotS. And I don't see why Sidious wouldn't practice his saber techniques, to keep Vader in his place, if nothing else.
Yeah, I could buy that.
Either way RotS Sidious and RotJ Sidious are the ones with the biggest chances to take Yoda down in this gauntlet.

Originally posted by Master Han
But then again, I could say the same about Obi Wan. I guess everybody just sat on their asses and grew old.
Whole OT is filled with old geezers apparently.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai is a better debater than me at some things like interpreting literature perhaps, but he's not when it comes to arguing combat ability in a vs forum.

You do grasp the apparent contradiction here, right? Apparently not.

If I'm your superior in interpreting literature, it follows, that I'm also your superior in a field that is based almost solely on that particular skill.

Your inability to grasp that fact, already shows how "skilled" you are, when it comes down to analysis and the forming of coherent arguments.

And to add the icing to this particularly ugly cake: You might consider the fact, that I'm operating under aggravated conditions here, given that I'm neither utilizing my primary language (which would be German) nor arguing to convince people of my personal opinion.

Yet, unlike you, I'm not the only person recognizing my own skill as a debater. In my case, that particular trait has been lauded even by my most notorious opponents in this forum, including the likes of Lightsnake and Gideon.

In short: Just because you're allowed to take the field in the same arena as yours truly, you're not necessarily playing in the same league.

And just to stay on topic:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
SIDIOUS_66 makes a convincing argument that Palpatine's disarming by Yoda was the product of the uneven terrain. Palpatine drops his lightsaber, per the script, when threatened with a fall from the Chancellor's podium. On flat terrain, that probably won't happen.


Sidious was holding the superior position during that section of the duel, forcing Yoda to - quite literally - run circles around him. I don't see how the apparent disarming could have been a question of "uneven terrain". In fact, Yoda on "equal ground" should give Sidious much more trouble, considering the fact, that - in such a situation - the Sith Lord would be limited to about 1/3 of his arsenal of lightsaber moves, because of Yoda's hight.

I'd also like to point to some facts considering the saber ability of Sidious. "Darth Plaguies" reveals quite nicely, that Sidious master wasn't fond of lightsaber duels. He actually dispised the art. The only formal training that Sidious - according to that novel - received in the art, are contests versus droids and a ritual slaughter of technologically inferior non-force-sensitives. Hardly a base to assume formal lightsaber mastery on a "technical" level.

And there are the following inconvenient facts: Sidious was - in the very same source - disarmed by Mace Windu. On equal ground. While Mace usually is viewed as Yoda's inferior in both lightsaber skill and force ability. So why shouldn't Yoda be capable of archiving the very same?

You see. I don't want to cast doubt on Sidious' deadliness with a lightsaber. Given his force mastery (that translates into precognition, manipulation of opponents and sheer speed) he is, most certainly, a formidable opponent. But once his strength in the force is either negated (as in the duel vs Mace) or matched (his duel with Yoda), he will most likely lose in armed confrontations. This even hold true to his DE incarnation. Once Leia starts negating Palpatine's "dark side version" of battle meditation, even Luke Skywalker is capable of disarming the Sith Lord.

Sidious never was the "fighter type" of a Sith Lord, and I find it rather irritating, that people feel the need to convince others, that he is a monster with a lightsaber in hand.

he is a monster with the lightsaber though. it required an extremely potent amp on mace windu's part just to even the playing field between him and sidious.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
he is a monster with the lightsaber though. it required an extremely potent amp on mace windu's part just to even the playing field between him and sidious.

You may want to reread the Revenge of the Sith novelization and "Shatterpoint".

Mace is on an "even playing field" with Sidious just utilizing his regular lightsaber abilities (Vaapad). And just for clarification: Vaapad allows Mace to utilize his own inner darkness and does nothing else. And there, it would have been a draw between those two. But then, one would need to ask, if Depa Billaba, also utilizing Vaapad, would have been capable of killing Sidious in a duel, because Mace notes her bladework was better than his own. (Although, this is most likely one of Mace's humble statements regarding his own skill in comparison to that of fellow Jedi).

Then we add Mace's Shatterpoint ability. And that puts Mace ahead of Sidious. Which was why the Sith Lord did end up disarmed, on the ground, lightsaber at his throat and at the mercy of the Jedi Master. So why wouldn't Yoda, generally seen as the superior of Windu, be capable of archiving the same?

One could make a - probably convincing - argument, utilizing Yoda's own thoughts from the RotS novel. He isn't capable of defeating the Sith Lord, because the usual tactic (putting once own light against the Darkness of the opposing Sith) does fail and Windu did utilize his dark side against Palpatine. But then, one would open the way for speculation, regarding the question, how Sidious would fare against similiar alligned opponents (namely: other Sith Lords).

Originally posted by Master Han
Except that he was the "fighter type" of a sith lord, to the same extent that he was a master Force user.

Hardly.
I already cited "Darth Plagueis" as reference for the reluctance of Plagueis to utilize the weapon and the real extend of Sidious lightsaber training. Compared to the likes of Dooku and even Maul, who focused on armed combat, Sidious certainly lacks formal training in that department. And compared to most Jedi, who - apparently - spared on a regular basis and utilized the weapon in combat, he lacks experience.



I can't believe, that this bullshit is still flung around here.

First: His fantastic performance against Yoda lasted for about 30 seconds before he - apparently - lost his lightsaber, indicating that he is vastly inferior to the Jedi Master in that particular art. The same holds true for his duel with Mace Windu, where he ends up on the ground and disarmed in about a minute. What happens when real "equals" clash, can be seen when Obi-Wan duels Anakin. But in terms of lightsaber ability, Sidious isn't a match for Yoda or Mace - demonstrated on screen.

Second: His performance against the Jedi strike team is also not based on his technical lightsaber ability, but on his ferocious speed, possible utilizing a surge of anger to further bolster his - already formidable - force abilities. He simple moved so fast that 2 out of the 4 Jedi confronting him where dead before they could even react. In a very similar fashion, a wounded and hungry Maul, deprived of sleep for weeks, was capable of almost overpowering Sidious in a surge of anger. Is that a viable reference point to gauge the lightsaber skill of Darth Maul? If you think it is, you can as well assume that RotJ Luke Skywalker is a superior duelist compared to Darth Vader, because he managed to batter him down in a surge of anger.

Third: Nick Gillard also proclaimed that Vaapad (and all other lightsaber forms) don't exist. And with the stuff we know about Sidious training, I can't picture him mastering multiple lightsaber styles. Why would he, if his command of the force would be sufficient to "move beyond forms" (as Kas'im describes it in "Path of Destruction" when Bane starts acting out of force guided instinct with a weapon in hand)?

Fourth: I find it rather questionable to ascribe all skills demonstrated by his apprentices to Sidious himself. The novels focusing on Darth Maul reveal quite nicely, that he did put himself through a rigorous training regime in terms of armed combat - and most of the time without Sidious assisting that. And why would Sidious "teach" him a lightsaber style (double-blade) that he didn't use himself. Especially, when, usually, the lightsaber style of the Padawan / Apprentice doesn't have to match that of his Master (see Anakin / Kenobi).



Really? From what I've seen so far, he is just capable of handling two lightsabers (and a lot of offensive force use) well enough, to deal with the duo. Impressive? Yes. Sufficient to elevate him to the pantheon of lightsaber duellists? Given how Obi-Wan Kenobi handles the Sith brothers in a 2 vs 1 situation, I don't think so.

Originally posted by Nai
Hardly.
I already cited "Darth Plagueis" as reference for the reluctance of Plagueis to utilize the weapon and the real extend of Sidious lightsaber training. Compared to the likes of Dooku and even Maul, who focused on armed combat, Sidious certainly lacks formal training in that department. And compared to most Jedi, who - apparently - spared on a regular basis and utilized the weapon in combat, he lacks experience.


1. You forget that, despite despising the weapon, Plagueis was nonetheless described as a "master" of lightsaber combat.
2. Nick Gillard has confirmed that Sidious is a master of every fighting style. Hardly surprising, given his juyo background, and given the apprentices and assassins he's personally instructed.

So, even if Sidious despised lightsaber combat, he obviously recognized its utility, just like how he recognized the utility of playing the benevolent democracy-loving leader. That doesn't mean he wasn't darn good at it.



I don't recall many people being able to last 30 seconds (which is a heavy understatement, BTW) against Yoda. And I also seem to recall Yoda's struggling more against Sidious than he did against "consummate duelist" Dooku.



Even accepting your dubious interpretation of vaapad (when the novel makes it quite clear that Windu draws on Sidious's own darkness, as he does against his SL), seeing that Mace Windu himself is one of the greatest duelists in the Order's 25,000 year long history, I hardly view this as evidence of Sidious's weakness. Note that they fight as equals after Windu's vaapad evens out the speed disparity, this being despite Windu's significantly greater physical conditioning. Sidious can hang with Windu, even with his advantage in the Force nullified.




Mace Windu was losing against Sidious, and would have fallen soon after the trio had he not sunken into vaapad (novelization). And what do you mean by "not a match"? Most lightsaber duels only last for a minute - Obi Wan's soresu being an obvious exception.

Furthermore, the novel makes it clear that Windu and Palpatine were equals after Windu matches his speed and Force amping - suggesting that Sidious, despite being in far lesser physical fitness than SLJ, can still compete through technical work. It's actually a conditional shatterpoint stemming from Anakin Skywalker that gave Windu the edge.



You make a fair point here, except that Palpatine later takes on Windu just fine, even when the latter explicitly matches his speed and reaches an "impasse".



Please tell me where he says this.



By that logic, explain why Yoda uses ataru when he's obviously beyond PoD Bane, or why Windu uses vaapad when he's obviously beyonod PoD Bane. Or why Obi Wan clearly fights using his eyes, despite telling Luke not to trust them. Kas'im didn't literally mean "lolz lightsaber skillz don't matter" (and indeed actually exclaims precisely the opposite) -

and if that were true, your entire point would be meaningless.



Sidious uses juyo.



If he weren't good at jar'kai, he'd have used his chosen juyo instead.

Originally posted by Nai
You do grasp the apparent contradiction here, right? Apparently not.

If I'm your superior in interpreting literature, it follows, that I'm also your superior in a field that is based almost solely on that particular skill.

Your inability to grasp that fact, already shows how "skilled" you are, when it comes down to analysis and the forming of coherent arguments.


Lmao

There is no contradiction. Being better at interpreting literature doesn't mean you are better at judging who would win in a vs. debate. You sound silly. That's like saying someone who can interpret the Bible is automatically better at judging on who would win out of two boxers in a boxing match than someone who wouldn't be able to understand the Bible. Just no.


Originally posted by Nai
And to add the icing to this particularly ugly cake: You might consider the fact, that I'm operating under aggravated conditions here, given that I'm neither utilizing my primary language (which would be German) nor arguing to convince people of my personal opinion.


What does this have to do with anything? As long as you can make your points clear then I don't see how this is relevant, other than you wanting to brag about yourself, which isn't surprising.


Originally posted by Nai
Yet, unlike you, I'm not the only person recognizing my own skill as a debater. In my case, that particular trait has been lauded even by my most notorious opponents in this forum, including the likes of Lightsnake and Gideon.


What do you mean unlike me? Gideon has complimented me on my debating skills as well as others. But I don't see how any of this is relevant, do you?

Besides, most everyone looked up to you back in the day because they were still very young at the time while you were fully grown, so I wouldn't brag about being held in high esteem by people you had years on in improving your quality as a debater. Those same people who complimented you grew up and the quality of their debating skills have improved dramatically, hence why most of them would no longer agree with you on Dooku being a near equal to Sidious. Face it, you're not top notch anymore; stop pretending what everyone thought about you in the past matters now.



Originally posted by Nai
Sidious was holding the superior position during that section of the duel, forcing Yoda to - quite literally - run circles around him. I don't see how the apparent disarming could have been a question of "uneven terrain". In fact, Yoda on "equal ground" should give Sidious much more trouble, considering the fact, that - in such a situation - the Sith Lord would be limited to about 1/3 of his arsenal of lightsaber moves, because of Yoda's hight.


Yoda's style of fighting is leaping in circles around his opponent, so I'm not sure how Yoda leaping around in circles, being able to evade Sidious's attacks without relying purely on his saber to defend against said attacks, was a disadvantage for him. Yoda never stays in one spot during any duel; it's not like he relies on foot work anyways. Also, Yoda was fighting on the high part of the platform, which took away his disadvantage of height and reach.

The confined area was a disadvantage to Sidious in that he didn't have much room to maneuver in. He was disarmed by Yoda because Yoda's ferocious assault nearly cause him to go over the edge, which is how he dropped his saber. Not seeing how that would have happened on even ground since there wouldn't have been an edge to nearly fall over. On even ground Sidious would have room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's attack. Remember, Sidious relies on acrobats and his agility in saber duels, which is things he couldn't rely on in a confined rising platform. So if you believe Yoda could have disarmed him on even ground even easier then prove how.

Not saying Yoda wouldn't win on even ground, in my opinion I believe Yoda would still take a majority in saber combat, but I think the fight would be much closer for reasons I explained



Originally posted by Nai
I'd also like to point to some facts considering the saber ability of Sidious. "Darth Plaguies" reveals quite nicely, that Sidious master wasn't fond of lightsaber duels. He actually dispised the art. The only formal training that Sidious - according to that novel - received in the art, are contests versus droids and a ritual slaughter of technologically inferior non-force-sensitives. Hardly a base to assume formal lightsaber mastery on a "technical" level.


Yet he is still confirmed as having mastery over all seven forms, and has some of the greatest saber feats in canon, such as blitzing masters in seconds despite Windu being alongside them, and dueling as a near equal to the orders greatest lightsaber duelist despite the terrain being a disadvantage for him. You can't use Sidious's speed as an excuse for him holding his own against Yoda, considering that Yoda is just as fast as him, which would then mean that the gap in skill isn't that great, otherwise Yoda should have ended the fight relatively easy.


Originally posted by Nai
And there are the following inconvenient facts: Sidious was - in the very same source - disarmed by Mace Windu. On equal ground. While Mace usually is viewed as Yoda's inferior in both lightsaber skill and force ability. So why shouldn't Yoda be capable of archiving the very same?


This argument actually serves in Sidious's favor, and may support the argument that Sidious may have never intended on winning his fight against Windu, but wanted to create a situation in which Anakin was forced to choose sides, hence the telepathic warning to Anakin before the jedi even arrived.

Regardless, the novel makes it clear that Mace's usage of vaapad was far more potent than it had ever been, and only won due to his shatterpoint ability which took advantage of Sidious's fear (fear that Mace later realized wasn't even there to begin with, but was actually Anakin's fear he was feeling, BTW).



Originally posted by Nai
You see. I don't want to cast doubt on Sidious' deadliness with a lightsaber. Given his force mastery (that translates into precognition, manipulation of opponents and sheer speed) he is, most certainly, a formidable opponent. But once his strength in the force is either negated (as in the duel vs Mace) or matched (his duel with Yoda), he will most likely lose in armed confrontations. This even hold true to his DE incarnation. Once Leia starts negating Palpatine's "dark side version" of battle meditation, even Luke Skywalker is capable of disarming the Sith Lord.


The same can be said about Yoda who relies far more heavily on the force in saber duels than Sidious does. Take away the force, Yoda can barely walk. Does this make him unskilled? If so, it sure does contradict sources that suggest he is among the most skilled saber duelist of all jedi.



Originally posted by Nai
Sidious never was the "fighter type" of a Sith Lord, and I find it rather irritating, that people feel the need to convince others, that he is a monster with a lightsaber in hand.


His feats and accolades disagree with you. Though your irritation is not surprising given your extreme bias against the character. Just because Sidious may not put his fighting ability first, doesn't mean that he is not a fighter. What kind of logic is that?

Note: I was wrong about Sidious's preferring juyo. But I was right about Gillard's commentary:

"It took a really long time for Nick to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."
Nick Gillard

Given that he trains Maul in a form requiring the high end mastery of various forms, trains various Emperor's hands in exotic weapon styles and techniques, and can duel evenly with Mace Windu even after the Jedi Master nullifies his Force advantage, only losing due to a circumstantial shatterpoint, it's obvious he's a master lightsaber duelist.

On my iPhone and can't get into lengthy debates, but Sidious is a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. - NG

Could people please leave the exact source when they're giving quotes. Thanks.



Originally posted by Master Han


Given that he trains Maul in a form requiring the high end mastery of various forms, trains various Emperor's hands in exotic weapon styles and techniques, and can duel evenly with Mace Windu even after the Jedi Master nullifies his Force advantage, only losing due to a circumstantial shatterpoint, it's obvious he's a master lightsaber duelist.

Yeah his mastery seems to have been on Par with Mace Windu(which is obviously top-tier Saber Mastery). It was only Windu's natural Shatterpoint talent which gave him the edge in that particular fight.

Really love how people are trying to say Sidious isint a fighter. Slaughtering 3 Jedi Masters(would have killed the fourth in saber combat aswell), fighting evenly with Yoda and PWNING Maul and Opress. He's as much of a fighter as they come.