ROTS Mace Windu Vs ROTJ Darth Vader

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ROTJ Vader
1.Sabers
2.Force
3.All-Out

they fight in the rebel base of hoth.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
idk, vader and windu, i'd say, are almost equals with sabers, while vader wins in the force, and i guess vader all-out

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
idk, vader and windu, i'd say, are almost equals with sabers, while vader wins in the force, and i guess vader all-out

Yeah, I would agree with that aswell.

In skill/lightsaber usage Windu seems to have a slight edge. Windu has defeated Ventress, Vos, and Bulq and stalemated with Dooku/Grievous and was the 2nd best Jedi as of AOTC. Vader has defeated Sha Koon, Roan Shyrne, 3Jedi Masters with complete ease, The Dark Woman, and Cho'na Bene. I would give Windu a slight edge in sabers and a edge in speed. However in the force its clear Vader is superior. He has lifted up giant ships, collapsed trees/bridges, Force choked from across the galaxy, force choked Galen Marek, and TK'ed giant robots. Windu has obliterated a battalion of droids with a force push and collapsed a large door(Battle of Ryloth). Windu has also done some good stuff in Shatterpoint with the force but nothing that puts him near Vader. Vader is also physically stronger aswell and has the edge in durability(collapsing a cathedral on himself and surviving, and impaling himself with a lightsaber and getting back up). So I believe Vader would take a slight majority like 7/10 because he is able to hold Windu of in sabers and is clearly better with TK. At the very least it would be a 5/5 split, IMO.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
btw, what do you think about ROTJ vader vs dooku? i was arguing with mizukage, and he thinks dooku > vader, while i argued vader > dooku

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
btw, what do you think about ROTJ vader vs dooku? i was arguing with mizukage, and he thinks dooku > vader, while i argued vader > dooku

Well, I see Windu and Dooku as equals so I would argue Vader takes 7/10 the same Vs Dooku as he does Windu.

Based
Mace.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
care to explain?

NewGuy01
Vaapad.

/explanation

Mizukage Yoda
Mace takes this with some difficulty.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace takes this with some difficulty.

How?. Whats your analysis on this battle?.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
How?. Whats your analysis on this battle?.

I would say the battle begins with a stalemate even after Mace has sunken into Vaapad. However once he's able to sense Vader's shatterpoints i.e. his arms and legs, he will be able to cut Vader down. Mace was able to match Sidious blow for blow at 24+ blows per second. Now granted that was amped, but Mace also was able to keep up with Grievous' speed in spite of not being the master of Soresu. Vader's greatest disadvantage is his mobility, which a speedy combatant like Mace will be able to capitalize on.

Zett
Depends of the place.
If they fight in place like base's command centrer, when there is not enough space and things to successfully using TK, then Windu takes it, since he has clear advantage in sabers.
And if they fight in.. hangar with many ships, for example, the Vader has chances to win this fight with his TK and other force skills.

I would say: Mace 6/10.

DARTH POWER
Mace wins a majority. But seen as Vader is 80% as Powerful as Sidious at this point, it won't be a stomp or anything.

Master Han
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I would say the battle begins with a stalemate even after Mace has sunken into Vaapad.

With all due respect, I think you're severely overestimating Vader, or otherwise underestimating Windu, here. Mace Windu at RotS is still above Anakin Skywalker, who is solidly a far, far far more dangerous duelist than any level his suited self has reached, even by RotJ. He cuts Vader down, vaapad or no.

It's probably true that Vader is more powerful in the Force, but necessarily by a damning margin, and certainly not when Windu kicks in his vaapad and shatterpoint.

Windu 10/10.

Intrepid37
Vader.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Master Han
With all due respect, I think you're severely overestimating Vader, or otherwise underestimating Windu, here. Mace Windu at RotS is still above Anakin Skywalker, who is solidly a far, far far more dangerous duelist than any level his suited self has reached, even by RotJ. He cuts Vader down, vaapad or no.

It's probably true that Vader is more powerful in the Force, but necessarily by a damning margin, and certainly not when Windu kicks in his vaapad and shatterpoint.

Windu 10/10.

If suited Vader was more prominent with the Force than his every-limb self, then it's not on 'any level'. Vader post-ROTS is stated to be 80% of Sidious. We can't say the same of ROTS Vader. However, I agree that overall ROTS Vader might be a more dangerous combatant than his suited version.

He won't win against Windu, though.

Master Han
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
If suited Vader was more prominent with the Force than his every-limb self, then it's not on 'any level'.

Sorry, I meant in terms of lightsaber combat. Vader may be stronger than Anakin or even Windu in the Force, but, as you've agree with, it isn't going to save him from the Jedi Master's significantly superior skill with a saber, especially given that his vaapad will neutralize/reverse any disparity in the Force.

Col. Valerian
Yeah, Vaapad + Shatterpoint = win in many, many scenarios against dark siders, especially.

DARTH POWER
Plus Mace's Force TK is very Powerful itself.

KuRuPT Thanosi
vader has literally no chance.. anybody picking vader has no clue what they are talking about.. Ohhh hey intrepid smile

Intrepid37
I can't decide who is more overrated, Mace or Obi-Wan?

Master Han
Barring "Windu > Yoda" adherents, neither are overrated. Booth Mace and Obi Wan are heavily underrated, with plenty of people still assuming that <random ancient sith> could easily dispose of the same Jedi Master who defeated Palpatine.

Nephthys
Obi-Wan.

Master Han
Obi Wan is among the most underrated of them all. I maintain that he could defeat the vast majority of chief ancient masturbatory sith in a blade to blade matchup.

DARTH POWER
Mace is the second most powerful Jedi as of the PT. And as per Lucas he is one of 2 Jedi/People who can compete with Sidious.

So as much as I don't like the character I can not deny that he is Extremely Powerful. An elite Jedi in any time or age.

He's only being overrated when people start claiming he's > Yoda/Sidious, or even on par with them for that matter. He may be able to take some wins against Sidious, maybe like 1/10 wins against Yoda even, but he is not equal to either of them.

Intrepid37
He's pretty overrated to say that he'd beat Vader 10/10 and that Vader would stand no chance.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
He's pretty overrated to say that he'd beat Vader 10/10 and that Vader would stand no chance.

Vader wouldn't stand any noteworthy chance against Mace Windu. He is hilariously outclassed with a lightsaber, and against vaapad, is also the inferior Force wielder. Combined with Windu's shatterpoint, this fight is decidedly one sided.

Intrepid37
Not really.

Master Han
dat logic

Intrepid37
Vader is more powerful, has wider knowledge, superior mastery, is more unpredictable, is physically stronger, higher pain endurance.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
It's probably true that Vader is more powerful in the Force, but necessarily by a damning margin, and certainly not when Windu kicks in his vaapad and shatterpoint.

Vader's abilities in the force completely outstrip those of non-mini series Mace.

Mace should still take a majority though.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Vader is more powerful,

Not after vaapad.



And how is this supposed to give him the victory? Windu is a superior duelist, and can draw on Vader's own strength in the dark side; the sith lord is heavily outclassed here. That he knows the history of Darth Malgus's campaigns means nothing.



Prove. Sidious also had "superior mastery", and he lost.



LOL, vaapad is designed to be unpredictable.



Although this is true, Windu's own impressive physical conditioning, and his ability to augment it with the Force, must not be underestimated. Yet none of your points convince me that Vader can defeat the same Jedi who has his master at his mercy. And, Windu > Anakin > Vader

Intrepid37
lol, this is Mace v Palpatien again. No thanks.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol, this is Mace v Palpatien again.

laughing No it's not, as if that argument were even in contention. In dueling, Windu > Anakin > Vader. In the Force, vaapad allows the Jedi Master to draw on Vader's own energies.

The_Tempest
The pr

Intrepid37
Vader, decades before his prime, collapsed a cathedral. Vader, decades before his prime, stalemated a lessened Obi-Wan. Vader, decades before his prime, beat Roan Shryne. Vader, decades before his prime, has mastered and perfected a lightsaber technique consisting of multiple forms. Vader, decades before his prime, beat up five of seven Jedi he got ambushed by. Vader, decades before his prime, moves fast enough to generate four afterimages. Vader, decades before his prime, fights evenly with Marek.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Vader, decades before his prime, collapsed a cathedral.

So? Mace Windu has force pushed an AT-TE.



laughing Windu is more powerful than Obi Wan in his prime.



laughing So what?



roll eyes (sarcastic) Mace Windu not only mastered juyo, an act requiring a high level mastery of the other forms, but perfected it, creating the "deadliest" lightsaber style, vaapad.



So what?



If you wish to engage in such fanciful descriptions, note that Windu and Palpatine were fighting too fast for Anakin to follow.



So? Marek isn't a particularly impressive duelist, and the two of them together were no match for Palpatine.

Accept it: Windu > Anakin > Vader.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
So? Mace Windu has force pushed an AT-TE.

Decent feat. But I fail to see how pushing one of a cliff is as impressive as pulling down a citadel.

Originally posted by Master Han
So? Marek isn't a particularly impressive duelist, and the two of them together were no match for Palpatine.

erm

Starkiller alone gave Palpatine a good fight. Throw Vader in there and the two would win.

Originally posted by Master Han
Accept it: Windu > Anakin > Vader.

Nah. Vader > Anakin (not in the z0ne).

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
yea honestly, the vader underestimation is flowing right now

Intrepid37
Anakin is better than them both.

Either way, your responds aren't very convincing. Allow me to say ''so what'' to every of Mace's feats.

And collapsing a cathedrals years before prime>>>pushing an AT-TE in prime.

SIDIOUS 66
Vader does have better TK feats than Windu, but I'm not so sure Vader is powerful enough to directly overwhelm Windu with the force even if Windu is not amped by vaapad.

Also @Han, I think it was Palpatine's own inner darkness along with Windu's inner darkness that completed vaapad's superconductive loop, not Palpatine's dark side energy. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense, because vaapad was said to use dark emotions as a weapon of light without using the dark side. And if Windu was using Palpatine's dark side energy then he would be using the dark side, which contradicts the whole point of vaapad, unless he fountains the dark side enery back out in the form of light side energy.

Either way, Windu wouldn't receive the same amp against Vader that he did against Palpatine, as Vader is not as powerful as Palpatine nor is he as dark as Palpatine.

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
Decent feat. But I fail to see how pushing one of a cliff is as impressive as pulling down a citadel.


Did I say that Windu was more powerful than Vader? The disparity simply isn't sufficient to overcome the Jedi Master's vastly superior dueling ability. It certainly isn't enough given Windu's vaapad, which gives him the edge in the Force fight as well.



Nope. From what I believe to be the New Essential Chronology, Palpatine is powerful enough to "destroy them both", which fits with the fact that Vader did not try taking on the Emperor, even with his apprentice's help.



George Lucas and Nick Gillard would disagree with you. Vader in A New Hope barely held an upper hand against a severely out of practice Obi Wan, while the Anakin in RotS was noticeably stronger than his master in his prime. Vader may have improved by RotJ, but he still isn't even as good a duelist as his younger self, let alone Windu.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin is better than them both.

Either way, your responds aren't very convincing. Allow me to say ''so what'' to every of Mace's feats.

And collapsing a cathedrals years before prime>>>pushing an AT-TE in prime.

laughing I dunno if I should take you seriously anymore, since you actually used stalemating a lessened Obi Wan to prove that Vader is more powerful than Mace Windu.

Vaapad nullifies any advantage in the Force Vader may have possessed, not that it would matter because Windu is that much better with a blade.

Master Han
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Either way, Windu wouldn't receive the same amp against Vader that he did against Palpatine, as Vader is not as powerful as Palpatine nor is he as dark as Palpatine.

Debates over vaapad's exact nature aside, the point is that, however much more powerful Vader is than Windu in the Force, vaapad will, at the least, equalize the disparity, thus turning the confrontation back towards the Jedi Master's massive advantage with a blade.

Intrepid37
lol @ your reading comprehension. He stalemated him before his prime.

Can we stop wanking Windu? He failed to deal a blow to Ventress. He only stalemated General Grievous.

The difference in power is bigger than the one in skill.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol @ your reading comprehension. He stalemated him before his prime.


And how does this put him above Master Windu?



He defeated Palpatine, and was described as being Dooku's equal before his own prime.



No. Mace Windu at baseline is >= Dooku. Mace Windu with vaapad can defeat Palpatine (given time to sink into vaapad). This is a one sided affair.

Intrepid37
1. I never said it did. If it did, I'd not bother post everything else I did.

2. Victory does not equal superiority bro, and he was never Dooku's equal before his prime.

3. No he's not, Mace and Dooku are equals.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Master Han

Accept it: Windu > Anakin > Vader.

I'd say Windu/Anakin/Dooku are in the same league.

Although I have no issue with putting Windu at the top of that league being the only one of them capable of defeating Sidious.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
Did I say that Windu was more powerful than Vader? The disparity simply isn't sufficient to overcome the Jedi Master's vastly superior dueling ability. It certainly isn't enough given Windu's vaapad, which gives him the edge in the Force fight as well.

Aside from the CW micro series, Windu doesn't have any feats that come close to some of Vader's. And I have yet to see Vaapad used in such a way during a force battle.

Originally posted by Master Han
Nope. From what I believe to be the New Essential Chronology, Palpatine is powerful enough to "destroy them both", which fits with the fact that Vader did not try taking on the Emperor, even with his apprentice's help.

Got the full quote and page number? I want to check it out in myself in full context.

Originally posted by Master Han
George Lucas and Nick Gillard would disagree with you. Vader in A New Hope barely held an upper hand against a severely out of practice Obi Wan, while the Anakin in RotS was noticeably stronger than his master in his prime. Vader may have improved by RotJ, but he still isn't even as good a duelist as his younger self, let alone Windu.

First, Lucas's quote was about lightsaber dueling not all out combat. And secondly, Lucas proceeds to pretty much contradict said quote in the following two movies where the most powerful duelist are old men.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. I never said it did. If it did, I'd not bother post everything else I did.


So you're resorting to throwing out a list of utterly unimpressive feats to mask the well cemented fact that Windu > Anakin > Vader?

If anything, your "point" did much to undermine your position, by establishing that Vader is nothing compared to RotS Obi Wan by ANH, and putting a limit to how powerful he reasonably could have gotten by RotJ.



Windu defeated Palpatine by using vaapad to channel his dark side energies. Ergo, he would do the same against Vader; his strength in the Force would end up equal to, if not greater than, Vader's own.

So, with Windu having the advantage in bladework, speed, agility, vaapad and shatterpoint, Vader's only remaining upperhand would be his sheer physical strength.

Yet we see that Vader couldn't even use this to obtain an upper hand against RotJ Luke (the novelization makes it clear Luke at least evenly matched him), who, while often underrated around here, certainly does not hold a candle to the inventor of vaapad. Meanwhile, Mace Windu's own immense physical conditioning should make it a lost cause to argue that he could overwhelm him where Luke stood his ground.



Assume that this premise is correct. Dooku as of RotS is still on par with an Anakin that is explicitly greater with a blade than Vader by a wide margin.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The pr

thumb up

Y'all need to step off when the Big Man's talking.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Vader puts up a good fight but losses a vast vast majority... 9/10

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Vader puts up a good fight but losses a vast vast majority... 9/10


That's better KT thumb up

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
isnt mace with vaapad/shatterpoint said to be = to dooku?

KuRuPT Thanosi
superior to dooku

The_Tempest
The line about Palpatine killing Marek and Vader together comes from TFU and it's Palpatine himself who says it, which casts it in a dubious light.

On the other hand, Vader doesn't exactly push it either.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
is there such a quote saying so? because i believe when dooku was confronting yoda on vjun, something along the lines of, "On even terms, perhaps only mace windu was his equal."

Based
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I can't decide who is more overrated, Mace or Obi-Wan?

Vader.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
isnt mace with vaapad/shatterpoint said to be = to dooku?

Apparently the concept of Vapaad is a hard one to grasp. If the above were true which I haven't heard then it's still irrelevant. Vapaad gives a bigger boost to Mace when the opponent is more attuned to the dark side.

This alone enables him to stalemate nearly every major darksider in the universe. Then when you add in his already impressive skills he'll win more than lose.

If he had no vapaad then sure he's not nearly as good. The dark siders of this forum are just bitter that vapaad exists.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
but the only reason he was able to fight on par with palpatine was because the fact that the leader of his beloved republic (palpatine) was the dark lord, making him no longer afraid of falling, sinking into vaapad like never before. i dont think this would apply here.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Master Han

He defeated Palpatine, and was described as being Dooku's equal before his own prime.

Prove it was before his prime. Because Vaapad was already developed as were his shatterpoints most likely. And Dooku was also not in his prime as he had not yet become a Sith Lord.




No. Count Dooku is equal to Mace Windu on neutral ground according to LOE.

That being said, Mace is going to take this one.

ROTJ Vader
I have a question. Mace and Dooku are equals. But how come Dooku was able to PWN Sora who had help from Tholme with ease but Windu could barley beat Sora 1v1. Can someone explain this to me?, because its really bothering me.

The_Tempest
Dooku pimpsmacked Sora Bulq with the Force as I recall.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku pimpsmacked Sora Bulq with the Force as I recall.

True.

DARTH POWER
He did disarm him of his Shoto in the Saber fight as well and he was facing 2 opponents.

Dooku just seems to be able to deal very easily with that caliber of Jedi: Bulq/Kenobi/Ventress.

Master Han
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove it was before his prime.


It's the most logical conclusion reconciling his allegedly being Dooku's equal, and his triumph over Palpatine. Especially given that Dark Rendezvous takes place 6 months before the events of RotS.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Master Han
So you're resorting to throwing out a list of utterly unimpressive feats to mask the well cemented fact that Windu > Anakin > Vader?
What? I'm pointing out his saber feats, knowledge of forms and techniques in an attempt to show that Vader would hold his own in a duel.

Originally posted by Master Han
If anything, your "point" did much to undermine your position, by establishing that Vader is nothing compared to RotS Obi Wan by ANH, and putting a limit to how powerful he reasonably could have gotten by RotJ.
We know he's ANH Kenobi's equal as per ANH. By ESB, he's far more formidable (as a swordsman).

He's at least RotS Obi-Wan's equal in skill and more powerful than Dooku.



Originally posted by Master Han
Windu defeated Palpatine by using vaapad to channel his dark side energies. Ergo, he would do the same against Vader; his strength in the Force would end up equal to, if not greater than, Vader's own.
No, he defeated him by abusing a shatterpoint.


Originally posted by Master Han
So, with Windu having the advantage in bladework, speed, agility, vaapad and shatterpoint, Vader's only remaining upperhand would be his sheer physical strength.
Uh, no. The advantage in bladework is small, as is the speed advantage. Vader is a far more powerful, masterful and potent telekinetic, not to mention, as you said, stronger, and knows a variety of powers such as Alter Environment.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yet we see that Vader couldn't even use this to obtain an upper hand against RotJ Luke (the novelization makes it clear Luke at least evenly matched him), who, while often underrated around here, certainly does not hold a candle to the inventor of vaapad.
So what? Luke is close to Mace's level.

Originally posted by Master Han
Assume that this premise is correct. Dooku as of RotS is still on par with an Anakin that is explicitly greater with a blade than Vader by a wide margin.
Come to the point.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Master Han
It's the most logical conclusion reconciling his allegedly being Dooku's equal, and his triumph over Palpatine. Especially given that Dark Rendezvous takes place 6 months before the events of RotS.

It is not logical that in decades of saber mastery and training that Mace would magically get a powerboost in the period of 6 months. How is that the most logical conclusion?

Master Han
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It is not logical that in decades of saber mastery and training that Mace would magically get a powerboost in the period of 6 months. How is that the most logical conclusion?

He's fighting on the front lines in the first galactic war in a thousand years. And there's nothing to indicate that he's peaked by AotC (IDK why you label standard progression as a magical "powerboost"wink, given that both Dooku and Sidious continued to grow stronger well into their elder years. And was it not made clear that Windu grew more powerful in his Shatterpoint novel?

I mean, you could make the same argument for Obi Wan, who, while younger than Windu, still has "decades" of saber mastery and training, and yet grew massively more powerful from AotC to RotS. Just like how Dooku grew more powerful between TPM and AotC. It explains how Windu can defeat Sidious in RotS.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Master Han
He's fighting on the front lines in the first galactic war in a thousand years. And there's nothing to indicate that he's peaked by AotC (IDK why you label standard progression as a magical "powerboost"wink, given that both Dooku and Sidious continued to grow stronger well into their elder years. And was it not made clear that Windu grew more powerful in his Shatterpoint novel?

Lightsiders, particularly lightside humans tend to go in the opposite direction in their older years. I.e. Kenobi and Satele Shan.



Except that's just it. Kenobi grew from the time he was a Knight and when he became a Master. But at late CWs-ROTS he was at his peak. After that it was a decline as evidenced by ANH Kenobi. Dooku grew more powerful between TPM and AOTC because he had over a decade to study the Dark Side. A difference between AOTCs Mace and TPM Mace, makes sense because there's 10+ years in between.

Even a difference between AOTC Mace and DR Mace makes sense given the 2 1/2 years of front line action. But between DR Mace and ROTS Mace, the difference between the two should be minimal at best.

Master Han
Feel free to explain how he defeats Sidious in RotS, then.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
i don't see why this needs to be explained so much. Windu got extremely pissed that the leader of his beloved republic was the dark lord, so he sunk deeper into vaapad than ever before. this would most likely not affect this case, meaning vader isnt super uber stomped by windu as you say he would.

Master Han
George Lucas clarifies that Windu "can compete" with Palpatine, with no mention of a once in a lifetime amp.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Master Han
George Lucas clarifies that Windu "can compete" with Palpatine, with no mention of a once in a lifetime amp.

It isn't a once in a lifetime amp. It's an amp when he's dueling withe the most powerful Sith Lord in history. He won't get such an amp when dueling Tyranus or Vader.

Master Han
He'll get enough of an amp so that his Force abilities will at least be evenly matched with theirs. With this in mind, his superior saber skills put him massively above Vader.

Now, I think you're assuming that vaapad somehow calculates whether or not the enemy's overall Force power is larger than Windu's, and only tries to bridge the disparity.

If Windu is a 70, and Dooku is a 70, vaapad will add some of Dooku's 70 onto Windu's...there's no need for a disparity.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Exactly right... it doesn't just bridge a gap if Mace is a 80 and Dooku is a 75.. he'll still amp his stats even more through the DS energies. He doesn't need to be below somebody to receive an amp.. he'll get an amp regardless

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
He'll get enough of an amp so that his Force abilities will at least be evenly matched with theirs. With this in mind, his superior saber skills put him massively above Vader.

erm

"Massively"? Nah. Windu wins after a good fight.

And once again I ask, where has Windu used Vaapad to amp his force powers such as telekinesis or telepathy?

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
erm

"Massively"? Nah. Windu wins after a good fight.


Could you see Windu struggling against RotJ Luke?



Uh, he uses it to draw on his overall Force ability. It's reasonable to extrapolate that he could harness said energies to amp his telekinesis. (and I seem to recall his doing this with telepathy in Shatterpoint)

But I don't think Windu's going to beat Vader through the Force, but rather through his superior dueling abilities.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
Could you see Windu struggling against RotJ Luke?

No. But I see him struggling with Vader.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, he uses it to draw on his overall Force ability. It's reasonable to extrapolate that he could harness said energies to amp his telekinesis. (and I seem to recall his doing this with telepathy in Shatterpoint)

No, it's really not. The novel notes that he reflects Sidious's fury and speed back, basically Mace amped his saber abilities nothing else is mentioned.

Simply put, Vaapad is a saber form (and, yes, a state of mind). Consider when Sidious shoot his lightning what does Mace do? He blocks with his lightsaber. He isn't absorbing the rays and sending his own back rather he reflects them with his saber. Why? Because Vaapad is a saber form. Ultimately, he isn't amping his own force powers off of Sidious's in their duel nor is he ever shown doing so.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you forget about the super conducting loop during said lighting attack i.e. vaapad at work?

ares834
Did you bother to read my post about how Vaapad is a lightsaber form and hasn't been shown to amp his own force powers?

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
No. But I see him struggling with Vader.


...By RotJ, Luke is Vader's equal with a blade.



It's far more literal than that. Mace literally draws on Sidious's own dark side energies.



Actually, Windu's superconducting loop physically reflects Sidious's dark side energy back on himself, something a typical saber user wouldn't be able to do. It's a lightsaber form and a Force technique.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
...By RotJ, Luke is Vader's equal with a blade.

ABC logic at work.

Originally posted by Master Han
It's far more literal than that. Mace literally draws on Sidious's own dark side energies.

He does and reflects them back. Not denying that but he has only been shown to amp his own saber abilities not his other abilities.

Originally posted by Master Han
Actually, Windu's superconducting loop physically reflects Sidious's dark side energy back on himself, something a typical saber user wouldn't be able to do. It's a lightsaber form and a Force technique.

There are other instances of a lightsaber blocking and reflecting lightning. Such as Revan in his battle with Vitiate, it's not unique to Vaapad.

Edit: It's also important to note what happens when Vaapad is pushed beyond it's limit. In this case, Mace's strength fails him yet the lightning keeps reflecting. Further evidence that it his strength that is being amped in this case.

Nephthys
Personally I doubt Vaapad was actually pushed to its limit or that Mace's strength was failing, seeing as he's able to push through the lightning several times until he's leaning over Sidious.

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
ABC logic at work.


roll eyes (sarcastic) You can't just throw that word out as though it were a formal logical fallacy. The transitive property is a common feature in mathematics and logic; it's only fallacious when the analogies don't match up, which is on you to establish.



Uh, he was able to match Palpatine's speed. Speed generated by the Force.



That's not the same thing. wink Windu was redirecting Sidious's own dark side energy on himself, thereby melting his face. The novelization makes it clear that this has to do with the Force, not some reflective property of the lightsaber blade.



Regardless of what is being amped, it is through the Force. Windu's speed, and presumably his precognition and Force valar are heightened. Otherwise, Palpatine would have dominated the fight, and could have dispatched him with TK - unless if Windu was powerful enough to resist it outright, in which case I'd question why Vader would pose a threat.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
roll eyes (sarcastic) You can't just throw that word out as though it were a formal logical fallacy. The transitive property is a common feature in mathematics and logic; it's only fallacious when the analogies don't match up, which is on you to establish.

You're argument relies on it and it's been shown to be faulty many times. Ultimately though, Vader isn't going to be challenging Windu because of his saber prowess but rather his abilities with the force.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, he was able to match Palpatine's speed. Speed generated by the Force.

Force speed has always been a staple of saber combat like strength. You're not refuting any thing I've stated.

Originally posted by Master Han
Regardless of what is being amped, it is through the Force. Windu's speed, and presumably his precognition and Force valar are heightened. Otherwise, Palpatine would have dominated the fight, and could have dispatched him with TK - unless if Windu was powerful enough to resist it outright, in which case I'd question why Vader would pose a threat.

So, you've brought nothing new to the table? I know all this! I'm curious for where you get the notion that Windu can amp his TK or similar force powers off a dark jedi not his own physical abilities. You claimed he could do so; so I would like concrete evidence.

Otherwise, it's vague speculation and baseless conjecture. The same thing you are accusing Neph of in the Scourge/Kenobi thread.

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
You're argument relies on it and it's been shown to be faulty many times.

Are you seriously under the impression that "ABC logic" is a singular form of argument that must be either valid or invalid under all circumstances?

Give me an example of ABC logic not working, and I can gladly point out why it doesn't work. You can't draw the conclusion that it doesn't work from...the premise that it doesn't work. The transitive property isn't rendered automatically null because some persons have misused it. Yours is the equivalent to the arguments of those who casually dismiss all statistical data as "damned statistics" without bothering to elaborate on their positions.




I seem to recall Palpatine trying this out. How did that go?



LOL, wut? How does being able to move at supernatural speeds have anything to do with execution of lightsaber forms and techniques?



When did I argue that Windu would be using TK on Vader? His strength in the Force is amped, and his defenses are also boosted, given his ability to fend off Palpatine's lightning at point blank range; logically, he should be able to deflect Vader's TK. Unless if that's more powerful than Sidious' FL?



You're right, your argument is vague speculation and baseless conjecture. What we do know is that Mace Windu defeated Palpatine in a duel, while Vader couldn't best RotJ Luke.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
Are you seriously under the impression that "ABC logic" is a singular form of argument that must be either valid or invalid under all circumstances?

The obvious one is Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin. Ultimately, the flaw is that characters have certain strength and weakness and certain circumstances are involved.

For example, when Luke defeats Vader, Vader is conflicted and never unleashed his force powers. Yor line of argumentation fails to take these into consideration, hence why it is faulty. Nor does it take into consideration Vader's other showings.

Anyway, here is another fun ABC argument without taking circumstances into consideration.

Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
When did I argue that Windu would be using TK on Vader? His strength in the Force is amped, and his defenses are also boosted, given his ability to fend off Palpatine's lightning at point blank range; logically, he should be able to deflect Vader's TK. Unless if that's more powerful than Sidious' FL?

He probably will be able to block Vader's TK albeit not easily. I thought you were arguing that Windu's TK would be amped up to Vader's level.

It's also seems that lightning is typically portrayed as easier to block against than TK.

Originally posted by Master Han
You're right, your argument is vague speculation and baseless conjecture. What we do know is that Mace Windu defeated Palpatine in a duel, while Vader couldn't best RotJ Luke.

My argument relies on no speculation at all. After all, I never once said Windu or Vader would be doing something they have never been portrayed as performing.

And in case you're wondering I did say Windu would win more often than not. Just not with the apparent ease you seem to believe.

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
The obvious one is Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin. Ultimately, the flaw is that characters have certain strength and weakness and certain circumstances are involved.


The two Anakins weren't the same. One was Zonakin. The other was Emokin.

Zonakin >>> Dooku > Kenobi > Emokin




The RotJ novelization appears to contradict your line of argument, especially given that Luke was even more hesitant to face his father. Now, EU sources suggest, with believability, that Vader could have easily killed Luke with telekinesis; but it is difficult to deny that they were evenly matched in sabers.



Funny. Since I don't know much about Kar Vastor, enlighten me as to where it's stated that Vader is his superior. And did Windu not defeat Kar Vastor? Did he not only lose in hand to hand combat?



I could argue that, but I don't see the need to.




Path of Destruction implies otherwise. There's a reason why Anakin and Obi Wan didn't just Force push the other off one of their CGI-balancing beams. When prepared and focused, Force defenses are exceptionally difficult to penetrate with TK.




Right. Vader has never demonstrated saber mastery on Windu's level. He would lose to his RotS counterpart. His RotS counterpart, at baseline, still isn't on Windu's level. And Windu has vaapad.



Under what circumstances do you see Vader taking the victory?

The_Tempest
Vader was touted as Vastor's significant superior by Nick Rostu in one of the Coruscant Nights book.

ares834

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
Which is my point. The emotional states of the characters are critical to the duel.


And? Neither's emotional state is specified to be compromised here, nor was Windu compromised against Palpatine.



That Vader didn't want to kill Luke doesn't mean he could afford the luxury of going easy on him; the novelization makes it clear that they were evenly matched. And I'd point out, again, that Luke was even more hesitant to fight than Vader.



Vader tends to pretend that everything before his injuries never happened, so even if we assume that he's referring to realized power, and not potential, as the two are often used interchangeably, at best we put him above ANH Obi Wan.

But, that's rather difficult to believe, in light of the fact that Vader toyed with Luke and fought relatively evenly with his master. Vader couldn't have improved that much by ESB.



I fail to see how Nick is a reliable judge of Force power. And Vastor only outmatched Windu in hand to hand combat.



It wouldn't necessarily be beneficial against trained Force users.



Dooku likely saw an opening and beat him to the draw, as implied in RoDV.



That debate aside, RotS Anakin >> Vader in bladework.



no expression Palpatine couldn't.

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
And? Neither's emotional state is specified to be compromised here, nor was Windu compromised against Palpatine.

That Vader didn't want to kill Luke doesn't mean he could afford the luxury of going easy on him; the novelization makes it clear that they were evenly matched. And I'd point out, again, that Luke was even more hesitant to fight than Vader.

Umm... Vader is conflicted. That means he isn't operating at his best. Luke, by contrast, only seems to become hesitant when he realizes he is embracing the dark side which he is using throughout much of the duel.

Actually, reading the duel in RotJ I have to revise my judgement of Luke. Luke's frenzied attack was apparently beyond anything Vader had ever faced. Even more impressive, Palaptine actually fears RotJ Luke.

Originally posted by Master Han
Vader tends to pretend that everything before his injuries never happened, so even if we assume that he's referring to realized power, and not potential, as the two are often used interchangeably, at best we put him above ANH Obi Wan.

erm

No, he doesn't. He often muses on the Anakin's weaknesses, vulnerabilities, and failures.

Originally posted by Master Han
But, that's rather difficult to believe, in light of the fact that Vader toyed with Luke and fought relatively evenly with his master. Vader couldn't have improved that much by ESB.

The Death Star novel makes it clear that Kenobi was completely outmatched by Vader.

Originally posted by Master Han
I fail to see how Nick is a reliable judge of Force power.

Because he is a force sensitive... The fact that he feels such a massive gap in power between the two certainly shows us that Vader is the greater.

Originally posted by Master Han
That debate aside, RotS Anakin >> Vader in bladework.

Proof please.

Originally posted by Master Han
no expression Palpatine couldn't.

Palpatine didn't even try in the movie. So to say he couldn't is, well, faulty. But, in the novel, he almost beats Windu when he uses it.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Master Han
no expression Palpatine couldn't.

thumb down



thumb up

Master Han
Originally posted by ares834
Umm... Vader is conflicted. That means he isn't operating at his best. Luke, by contrast, only seems to become hesitant when he realizes he is embracing the dark side which he is using throughout much of the duel.


Luke, actually, refuses to fight Vader and deactivates his lightsaber on multiple occasions.



And lashes at Luke when he tries to use "Anakin". And refuses to think of Padme's name in Death Star. ESB Luke can't possibly be above RotS Obi Wan, because we know from OOU sources that Anakin in RotS is a greater duelist than his later self.



no expression It merely mentions that Vader had the advantage.



I don't see how being slightly Force sensitive makes him an accurate judge of character powers. Revan and Malak, themselves far more attuned to the Force, thought that they could take on Vitiate, for example.

But, again, Windu was only losing to Vastor in hand to hand combat. erm



I'm sure you've heard of the commentary?



Because Windu was too powerful?



"almost"?

The_Tempest
...Before having met him. Rostu, on the other hand, has met both Vastor and Vader and would be able to sense which possesses the greater power.

Unless one of them happened to be shielding themselves in the Force or clouding his senses.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
What? I'm pointing out his saber feats, knowledge of forms and techniques in an attempt to show that Vader would hold his own in a duel.


And you failed epically, since none of your arguments do anything to put him on Windu's level.



Yes, and your bringing up the former point does nothing but make your argument more of a stretch. You'd have to conclude that Vader improved through ANH to ESB as significantly as Obi Wan did from AotC to RotS.



He's more powerful than Dooku, but there's nothing to suggest that he's a match for RotS Obi Wan with a blade.



roll eyes (sarcastic) That's like saying he defeated him with a kick; the most significant contributor, beyond his baseline talents, was vaapad. And Vader, being a broken man in a vulnerable suit, is bound to have plenty of shatterpoints.

So your primary point in Vader's favor, that he's more powerful in the Force, fails to give him the edge against the superconducting loop.




The speed advantage is pretty huge.



laughing "masterful"?



At this point? No, he isn't. Subsequent literature portrays him as exceptionally powerful, but not yet top tier. He still often struggles against random ass dark jedi as late as JA, for example.



laughing I thought it was obvious enough, but there are two obvious chains here:

Windu >= Anakin > Vader
and
Windu + vaapad/shatterpoint >= Sidious > Vader

The main advantages Vader possesses in duels:

1. Force power - Windu will draw on his own reserves with vaapad.
2. Physical strength - Windu himself is no weakling, and we see from Luke's performance that this isn't difficult to counteract with a skilled duelist
3. Technical skills - whilst Vader has combined various high level forms, Windu has taken juyo, which requires a high level mastery of various forms, and perfected it into "the deadliest" lightsaber style.

Master Han
Originally posted by The_Tempest
...Before having met him.

They should have been able to sense his power, at least before they entered his throne room.

You could similarly point towards Anakin's misjudging Dooku, or even Rahn Kota's misjudging Starkiller/Vader.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Master Han
He still often struggles against random ass dark jedi as late as JA, for example.


Desaan?

ares834
Originally posted by Master Han
Luke, actually, refuses to fight Vader and deactivates his lightsaber on multiple occasions.

He does it once. And that's after he forsakes the dark side.

Originally posted by Master Han
And lashes at Luke when he tries to use "Anakin". And refuses to think of Padme's name in Death Star. ESB Luke can't possibly be above RotS Obi Wan, because we know from OOU sources that Anakin in RotS is a greater duelist than his later self.

Sources that has basically been contradicted by the following movies. I'll expand on this later.

Originally posted by Master Han
no expression It merely mentions that Vader had the advantage.

A sizable one. It starts off describing Vader easily blocking Kenobi's attacks and from there it describes Kenobi as weakening.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't see how being slightly Force sensitive makes him an accurate judge of character powers. Revan and Malak, themselves far more attuned to the Force, thought that they could take on Vitiate, for example.

Eh? I'm not sure what point you are making here. Revan and Malak had never met Vitiate before thinking they could defeat him.

Anyway, the sheer discrepancy that Nick notices about the force power of the two suggest Vader is at the very least superior, if not vastly superior. Unless, of course, one of them is concealing their force power.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm sure you've heard of the commentary?

I'm assuming you are talking about the "crippled men/old men" comments, yes? If so, Lucas made those comments during the making of TPM. However, in the following two movies we see "old men" as being by far the most dangerous combatants and a "crippled" warrior actually managing to challenge a Jedi. Basically, it seems Lucas has straight up contradicted those comments in his subsequent movies.

Originally posted by Master Han
"almost"?

Yes, he almost shoves him out a window and Mace only survives after a "desperate" readjustment using the force. Tempest also provided another sequence in which Sidious overpowers Windu with the Force.

Anyway, it seems we are more or less at an impasse. It's quite clear that neither of us is going to convince the other; so, if you bother replying to this post I'm unlikely to reply back.

Nephthys
Didn't Windu think Vastor had as much power as Yoda? I'm suspicious of Vader being so much stronger than him myself.

ares834
It's been awhile since I read the novel, but I believe he was talking about potential in that case.

I seem to recall the term "raw power" and how it was on a level with Yoda and Anakin.

NewGuy01
Not potential, but raw power. There's a difference.

But yeah.

Nephthys
Hmmmmm. uhuh

Master Han
Would it be racist to ask who has a bigger...

DARTH POWER
^ Not really, because they're both black (James Earl Jones is the real Darth Vader).

But your curiosity on the issue probably brings your sexuality into question.

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