ROTS Count Dooku Vs ROTS Mace Windu

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No.

What you describe is exactly what we see in the duel between messieurs Windu and Sidious, indeed, I believe the latter made a number of comments along the lines of, "I'm too weak".

But then - and I could be wrong here, so please do correct me - the Chancellor screams out "unlimited power" and proceeds to blast his opponent out of the window.

Furthermore, the novel explicitly mentions Windu's fatigue:

"'You're the chosen one, Anakin,' Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

Rather a gaping flaw in your theory, one would think.

That isn't a gapping hole... Vaapad giving mace more stamina doesn't contradict Mace almost being overwhelmed by Sids lighting. Those things aren't mutually inclusive. That's like saying.. a boxer was clearly tired because he was struggling to stay standing after gettnig hit with bombs.. no.. it had nothing to do with Stamina and all to dowin with the powerful punches he was taking. Same thing here... Sids powerful lighting was making Mace work and struggle a lot not to be taken out by it... That has very little to do with stamina. The same novel you quote mentions how the Mace is constantly feeding of the energies of the emperor to replenish his energies.

What does the emperor saying he's too weak to continue and not being too weak to continue have to do with this discussion. I don't remember ever saying the emperor didn't have something left.. we're told he did by Lucas himself. That though, again, has nothing to do with Mace increasing his stats including stamina and speed through the energies of a DSider

NTJack0

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No! Your arguments are just beautiful.

Vensai

Sabers: Dooku
Force: Dooku
All-out: Dooku 51/100

Dooku has more impressive showings than Windu. He has performed better against Bulq, Ventress, Grievous in sabers, etc. than Windu has. Not to mention he has held his own against Yoda without the need of Vaapad's amp.

Master Han

Yeah...but vaapad's amp still counts here, and so Windu wins.

Zett

Well, let's see:

Lighstaber skills and techniques:

Acording to LoE, Yoda: DR and some others sources that I didn't remember, they were equaly skilled with a lightsabers. I personaly believe, that in Shatterpoint Windu finally mastered his Vaapad to a highest degree. And all those sources have happened after SP. So i believe, that near to ROTS they were about equal, and before SP Dooku was a bit better.

Windu's favourite style is ofcourse Vaapad. I have a bit different opinion about that style then many of you, I guess. I'll show you my point:
I agree, that Vaapad was the best weapon against Sidious. But against others darksiders? I'm not sure. It'sa a BS for me, that Windu could feed himself on darksiders. He could feed himself on his own darkness (joy from fight, anger - all those feelings that jedi should control). He could also feed himself on dark side sources (like "dark side nexus" - it means source of the dark side, like on Vjun, right?).
So why I think, that Vaapad will work against Sidious more, then against others darksiders? Well, it's the fact, that I believe that Sidious on his own is some kind of "dark side nexus". For example:

Depowered lampdisks were rings of ghostly gray floating inthe gloom. The shimmering jewelscape of Coruscant haloed theknife-edged shadow of the chair.
This was the office of the Chancellor.
Within the chair's shadow sat another shadow: deeper,darker, formless and impenetrable, an abyssal umbra so profoundthat it drained light from the room around it.
And from the city. And the planet.
And the galaxy.

So, Mace was feeding himself more on Sidious' "dark aura", then on Sidious.

About Count... well I just agree with this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CgSV7Xans 00:26:20

The force:
Dooku clearly has the advantage, but i don't think that this advantage will help him much against Mace. His force mastery let him deal with weaker enemies, like kenobi, Bulq with ease. He's much more succesluf in that kind of fights then Mace, but I dont think that it would help him against Mace.

Physical abilities:
Dooku is older, weaker. Mace is stronher, and has much better stamina, I guess. But is he faster? I don't think so. Is he more agily? I believe that not. For me Dooku is a bit more agily. For example his landing after this kick from Skywalker (ROTS).

So, for me:

Mace = Dooku in sabers, but since I believe that Dooku's Makashi is best counter aganst Mace's Vaapad, I give a small edge to Dooku.

Mace < Dooku in the force. But in this fight between them, Dooku's advantage is just a theory. If Mace wont do a mistake, Dooku's powers will be useless, so its more like Mace = Dooku (only in this fight ofcourse).

Pshysical abilities... I'll give an advantage to Mace. But if fight wont be so long, its again, more like a tie.

I bet Dooku as a winner, about 55-45.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Zett
About Count... well I just agree with this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CgSV7Xans 00:26:20

That is a good breakdown and analysis imo.

Petrus

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except Mace's boost only makes him equal to the combatant he is facing. And since he and Dooku are so damned even the boost he'd get from Vaapad is minimal. Also for decades Sidious wasn't just a master of the Dark Side, but he was an embodiment of the Dark Side himself. So naturally Vaapad would give Windu an unimaginable boost. This is the guy who with Plagueis waged war against the Force itself and tilted it into the Darkness.

Sidious was THE avatar of the Dark. Dooku in comparison is a master of the Dark Side.

Why would you say Vaapad only makes Mace his equal? They are already equals without it. Add Vaapad and shatterpoint and Mace should have the clear edge over Dooku.

Intrepid37

Equals without Vaapad? Lol.

Petrus

So "Lol" is your rebuttal?
"Lol" might be a fair response to a ridiculous and impossible suggestion, which isn't the case.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

nope. mace with vaapad and shatterpoint stalemated dooku in a duel i believe

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

finding it

Intrepid37

On Boz Pity.

Petrus

I'd still like the source.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

actually, i was wrong. it says that he was outmanuevered by mace after a brief duel, so he needed his magnaguards. i think i still maintain mace=dooku because in dark rendezvous it states them as equals

Petrus

It doesn't state them as equals with Vaapad and shatterpoint, it just states them as equals in terms of general skill. Sidious is more powerful than Mace but we all know how that turned out thanks to Vaapad and shatterpoint.
Could you still provide the quote, please?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

but he'd never submerged himself so deeply into vaapad before his fight with sidious, which most likely would not occur here.

"On even terms, perhaps only Mace Windu was his equal."

-dark rendezvous, this is saying everyone other than yoda, aka mace windu

Petrus

I meant the one of their fight, but fine. "Perhaps only Mace Windu was his equal" is hardly clear-cut evidence to say Mace = Dooku. There's also the fact that the Count actually couldn't defeat him and called on his magnaguards for aid.
It's true that Mace during his fight with Palpatine was submerged in Vaapad like he has never been before but this only demonstrates the power Mace is able to harness at his peak point. After a long, hard-fought duel against Dooku, Mace would most likely become submerged by Vaapad, too. Maybe not to the point vs. Sids, but enough to grant him the edge over Dooku. And if this doesn't, then shatterpoint will. Eventually.

Nephthys

It isn't a quote, the fights in a comic.

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/96/32/09/dooku_10.jpg

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/96/32/09/dooku_11.jpg

Not sure if thats all of it.

Petrus

That clears it up. You can't use that fight to prove their 'equality', much less with Vaapad and shatterpoint.

Nephthys

Also the fight might be non-canon?

Petrus

Didn't know that. Still, nothing changes.

The_Tempest

Adi Gallia's retconned death does not require that the entire story be erased.

Nephthys

Its Ventress' death too I believe. The guys saying the whole battle was retconned. *shrug?*

ares834

Ventress doesn't even die in the comic... But yeah, quite a bit of the comic is contradicted by the CW.

NewGuy01

Major plot points such as Ventress's death are enough to make a story non-canon, while the small details of a death like Fisto's is rather minor and doesn't contradict canon storyline. Obsession is non-canon.

ares834

Says who?

And like I said Ventress does not die in the comic. She runs away.

Nephthys

I believe Obsession is non-canon because Ventress is still Dooku's um, apprentice helper person? during it up to the end, whereas now she split from him much sooner.

Intrepid37

Just mean that it's earlier in the CW.

ares834

TBF, in Obsession she breaks away from Dooku as well. Although, I guess she could join up with him again...

The_Tempest

Ah, yes, Clone Wars continuity is such a giant clustereff. Though, as heretical as this sounds, I much prefer the new series to the old one.

The new one has plenty of shitty moments, though.

Intrepid37

when does the new season come out

The_Tempest

It was canceled.

Bonus content is to be released in an as-of-yet unannounced fashion.

The released promotional material for those arcs look promising. One is a Yoda/clones arc wherein Yoda visits Korriban; the other is Plo Koon investigating Sifo-Dyas.

Intrepid37

I hope they dedicate an episode to Sidious where he ****s shit up.

Nephthys

Originally posted by ares834
TBF, in Obsession she breaks away from Dooku as well.

Yeah thats what I mean. Pretty contradictory.

Petrus

Plo Koon investigating Syfo-Dyas is meh.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

yoda visiting korriban sounds cool, i wonder if he has to battle tulak hord there O_O

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I hope they dedicate an episode to Sidious where he ****s shit up.

...?

They did, it was called "The Lawless." Filoni basically said it's a love letter to Sidious being a BAMF.

?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Nephthys

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
yoda visiting korriban sounds cool, i wonder if he has to battle tulak hord there O_O

thumb up

x infinity!!!

Petrus

Loved the Maul and Opress vs. Palps fight in TCW. Kicked their asses.
That would be cool. Just as long as they don't overpower Hord.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...?

They did, it was called "The Lawless." Filoni basically said it's a love letter to Sidious being a BAMF.

?v=-7hBZNsPnyg
Another one, obviously. no expression

The_Tempest

was probably going to stumble across Revan and Bane, who were slated to appear in season 3 of Clone Wars during the Mortis arc. They had the characters digitally animated in the CW style and everything before Lucas vetoed it at the last second.

Originally posted by Petrus
Loved the Maul and Opress vs. Palps fight in TCW. Kicked their asses.

Yeah, rivaled only by the previous fight between Maul and Vizsla. Great stuff.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Another one, obviously. no expression

I'm not sure that would be wise, unless he was going to confront Talzin.

Intrepid37

Sidious pwning Bane and Revan in TCW. Would be ****ing awesome.

Or pwning Maul again.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

well hord has gained some renown over the years, but i still think yoda would beat him after a tough fight

NewGuy01

In book of the Sith, Yoda mentions having been to Korribanm and how his trusty kybuck mount was killed by wandering Tu'kata. He goes on to state how he never chose another steed afterwards.

SIDIOUS 66

I think TCW should have shown the Jedi council being more concerned on who Sidious was, but it's like they forgot about Dooku's claim in AOTC about a sith lord running the republic. Now granted, Yoda did say that Dooku's words are not to be trusted, but in ROTS, Anakin states that they had been looking for the missing sith lord. But we see hardly any concern in TCW, other than Yoda mentioning that he senses a darker presence than Dooku in one of the episodes.

Also, I wanted TCW to show more on Palpatine and Anakin's close "friendship." They seemed more like associates in the series. But there were a few episodes that I didn't watch, so maybe I missed something.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by ares834
TBF, in Obsession she breaks away from Dooku as well. Although, I guess she could join up with him again...

It could have happened after she broke away from him. Dooku may have attempted to recruit/brainwash her again. Seeing as he found her almost dead, it is something he might do.

Originally posted by Petrus
That clears it up. You can't use that fight to prove their 'equality', much less with Vaapad and shatterpoint.

They did seem pretty equal in it. And you don't think Mace was using Vapaad/Shatterpoint in that fight?

And btw in comic books a fight lasting just a few panels is quite normal.

Petrus

Except that the fight never ended because they were interrupted by Magnaguards, so you can't prove it would've been a stalemate.

Master Han

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...?

They did, it was called "The Lawless." Filoni basically said it's a love letter to Sidious being a BAMF.

?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

One of the best fights in Star Wars, IMO.

The Maul vs. Pre Vizsla fight was also beastly. But having a non-Force sensitive face off against a Sith Lord stretches suspension of disbelief...they could at least try to explain how a mandalorian with no precognition and superhuman abilities could stand to someone with reaction times able enough to deflect blaster bolts.

Or at least why Maul never uses telekinesis on him.

Petrus

Personally, I believe Maul could've simply stormed the place and annihilate Vizsla with the Force without any difficulty, but didn't do so because they wouldn't acquire Mandalorian support. Mandalorians value honor above anything else; Maul needed to give Vizsla an "honourable" defeat. Of course you'll never hear those words coming out of Filoni's mouth.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Petrus
Except that the fight never ended because they were interrupted by Magnaguards, so you can't prove it would've been a stalemate.

And there was nothing to show that Windu was going to win, except for the fact that he was willing to fight to the death to finish Dooku, whilst Dooku clearly would prefer to live.

The fight we saw showed them to be peers. Their sparring contests in the past as well as the quotes in Dark Rendezvous and the Clone Wars Republic Heroes game all imply a level of parity between Dooku and Mace (with possibly Dooku having an edge in fact).

However I do believe Mace might have an edge, but still I believe they're peers. I just think Mace's style is better suited to take on Rage Induced power houses like Sidious or Skywalker, which confuses people into thinking Mace is above Dooku.

Originally posted by Petrus
Personally, I believe Maul could've simply stormed the place and annihilate Vizsla with the Force without any difficulty, but didn't do so because they wouldn't acquire Mandalorian support. Mandalorians value honor above anything else; Maul needed to give Vizsla an "honourable" defeat. Of course you'll never hear those words coming out of Filoni's mouth.

It was explained in the episode that the whole purpose of the fight was to win over Vizsla's men. And Maul never once used TK on him even though we saw Opress levitate and choke Death Watch warriors around with ease in the same damn episode, just seconds and minutes earlier in fact. And I don't see any reason why Vizsla would have better force defenses.

So we don't need Filoni to explain everything.

Col. Valerian

I prefer Sidious vs. Oppress and Maul, but Vizsla vs. Maul was pretty good, too.

Petrus

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And there was nothing to show that Windu was going to win, except for the fact that he was willing to fight to the death to finish Dooku, whilst Dooku clearly would prefer to live.

Windu's showing against Sidious is enough to conclude the Count wasn't going to win if he submerged himself in Vaapad. It's true that since Sidious is considerably more powerful than Dooku, his complete submersion made him a more efficient combatant against the Sith Lord and thus it wouldn't be as effective against Dooku. But, Vaapad would at the very least grant him a small edge over him. If you add shatterpoint Dooku simply wouldn't be able to take it.

Actually, that comic fight is extremely vague. We can't even tell if they were fighting on par or not. And it doesn't matter if all those implied any level of parity because what we see in RotS outweighs any other form of canon, and we saw Mace defeating the most powerful Sith Lord due to his uncanny abilities (Vaapad and shatterpoint, obviously). The quote in 'Dark Rendezvous' that SKILLZ provided isn't clear-cut evidence that they were equals. Using 'perhaps' isn't conclusive at all. I admittedly don't know about the game, so unless there's something definite there, there isn't anything that makes it absolutely clear Dooku = Mace.

At least we agree on something.

I didn't watch the full episode, to be honest. So you just proved my theory right. wink

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Petrus
Why would you say Vaapad only makes Mace his equal? They are already equals without it. Add Vaapad and shatterpoint and Mace should have the clear edge over Dooku.

They are not equals without Vaapad. They were just stated to be equals. Period. So that includes all of Mace's abilities. So meaning Mace with Shatterpoints and Vaapad was still at best as good as Dooku in sparring and as of DR.

Intrepid37

Dooku would smoke him like he smokes his cuban cigar.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Petrus
Windu's showing against Sidious is enough to conclude the Count wasn't going to win if he submerged himself in Vaapad. It's true that since Sidious is considerably more powerful than Dooku, his complete submersion made him a more efficient combatant against the Sith Lord and thus it wouldn't be as effective against Dooku. But, Vaapad would at the very least grant him a small edge over him. If you add shatterpoint Dooku simply wouldn't be able to take it.

Mace had shatterpoint even when Dooku used to beat him in sparring matches. So it's clear it's not shatterpoint that will give Mace the edge.

Vapaad might give him an edge now where it didn't before since Dooku is a Sith now.

However since they are already pretty equal, I'm really not sure what Vapaad will do to change that.

Originally posted by Petrus
Actually, that comic fight is extremely vague. We can't even tell if they were fighting on par or not. And it doesn't matter if all those implied any level of parity because what we see in RotS outweighs any other form of canon, and we saw Mace defeating the most powerful Sith Lord due to his uncanny abilities (Vaapad and shatterpoint, obviously). The quote in 'Dark Rendezvous' that SKILLZ provided isn't clear-cut evidence that they were equals. Using 'perhaps' isn't conclusive at all. I admittedly don't know about the game, so unless there's something definite there, there isn't anything that makes it absolutely clear Dooku = Mace.

The comic really isn't as vague as you make out. Neither of them were giving ground. And there was certainly no indication that Mace was "kicking ass" or anything even close.

Mace did better against Sidious than even Yoda did. Does that mean Mace would kick Yoda's butt? Of course not. Mace is probably just better suited to take on Sidious. We see these A>B>C arguments failing countless times in SW.

DR doesn't mention "skills" just Saber Prowess. The only other interpretation it could mean is referring to all out combat.

Col. Valerian

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku would smoke him like he smokes his cuban cigar.

lol no.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Master Han
One of the best fights in Star Wars, IMO.

The Maul vs. Pre Vizsla fight was also beastly. But having a non-Force sensitive face off against a Sith Lord stretches suspension of disbelief...they could at least try to explain how a mandalorian with no precognition and superhuman abilities could stand to someone with reaction times able enough to deflect blaster bolts.

Or at least why Maul never uses telekinesis on him.

If you play KOTOR II, in the duel arena the Mandalorians will duel you if you don't use the force. I thought something similar was going down here.

Petrus

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace had shatterpoint even when Dooku used to beat him in sparring matches. So it's clear it's not shatterpoint that will give Mace the edge.

Sparring matches are hardly comparable to real battles. It's just that. Sparring. It's obvious that neither of the combatants are going all-out on each other. It's not like sparring Mace would sink deep into Vaapad and attempt to cripple Dooku with shatterpoint. A fight to death/capture/severely injure is not going to be similar to a simple sparring match. Besides...

...Exactly my point. It most definitely will.

Vaapad uses the opponent's darkness against himself . It is only logical to assume that Vaapad will give Mace an edge over Dooku, especially since Dooku is a master of the dark side. Add shatterpoint and it just improves Mace's chances further.

I never said Mace would kick Dooku's ass. I'm simply saying he would win against Dooku. It wouldn't be by a lot. But the comic is vague, IMO. It certainly doesn't seem like one of them had the upper hand, precisely because the Magnaguards intervene. We can't use that duel as a point of reference.

Mace only did better against Sidious because of Vaapad and shatterpoint. You know Vaapad works much better against dark siders and you know Yoda doesn't use it. Of course it doesn't mean Mace would kick Yoda's butt. I'm not saying that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They are not equals without Vaapad. They were just stated to be equals. Period. So that includes all of Mace's abilities. So meaning Mace with Shatterpoints and Vaapad was still at best as good as Dooku in sparring and as of DR.

The quote in "Dark Rendezvous" isn't conclusive. The omniscient narrator uses the word 'perhaps'. 'Perhaps' isn't enough to simply put them on the same level.

Besides, Lucas himself said you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. We all know about Lucas's complete lack of interest in the EU, so he most probably wasn't even thinking of Vaapad and shatterpoint when he said it, but his words are the highest form of canon possible , and the fact that Lucas says only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sidious does indeed put Mace above the likes of Dooku.

So, unless there's some other quote besides the one in DR, I don't see them as equals with Mace's amps playing a big role.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Petrus
Sparring matches are hardly comparable to real battles. It's just that. Sparring. It's obvious that neither of the combatants are going all-out on each other. It's not like sparring Mace would sink deep into Vaapad and attempt to cripple Dooku with shatterpoint. A fight to death/capture/severely injure is not going to be similar to a simple sparring match.

The superior swordsman should still win a sparring match though. And the fact that Dooku and Yoda were the only ones to beat Mace in sparring shows it clearly does give a decent indication of their respective Saber Prowess.

Otherwise you would have many random Jedi having beaten Mace in sparring.

Originally posted by Petrus
Vaapad uses the opponent's darkness against himself . It is only logical to assume that Vaapad will give Mace an edge over Dooku, especially since Dooku is a master of the dark side. Add shatterpoint and it just improves Mace's chances further.

Vapaad only helped Mace to equal Sidious. Since Dooku and Mace are equals already what benefit do you expect Mace to gain from Vapaad against Dooku? There's just too much speculation behind the exact mechanics of Vapaad and how it will effect each individual Dark Side that Mace faces Imho.

Originally posted by Petrus
I never said Mace would kick Dooku's ass. I'm simply saying he would win against Dooku. It wouldn't be by a lot. But the comic is vague, IMO. It certainly doesn't seem like one of them had the upper hand, precisely because the Magnaguards intervene. We can't use that duel as a point of reference.

They've sparred, we've heard Dooku won. They've fought, we've not seen either look better. It all just adds up to the case that Mace is not really > Dooku.

Originally posted by Petrus
The quote in "Dark Rendezvous" isn't conclusive. The omniscient narrator uses the word 'perhaps'. 'Perhaps' isn't enough to simply put them on the same level.

The perhaps clearly means that even Mace probably isn't Dooku's equal. So basically the quote is saying Mace "At Best" is Dooku's equal.

Originally posted by Petrus
Besides, Lucas himself said you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. We all know about Lucas's complete lack of interest in the EU, so he most probably wasn't even thinking of Vaapad and shatterpoint when he said it, but his words are the highest form of canon possible , and the fact that Lucas says only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sidious does indeed put Mace above the likes of Dooku.

True but Lucas never said you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace now did he? And I'm pretty sure when he said hat quote it was referring to Jedi only (not that I believe Dooku can beat Sidious, but just pointing that out).

And who knows what Lucas knows and what he doesn't. But I do know he line edited the ROTS Novel which explains Mace beating Sidious due to Vapaad.

Besides didn't Lucas already show Dooku competing with Yoda in AOTC? Since the idea that Yoda > Dooku even on a world amped in the Dark Side comes solely from EU Material and not from Lucas.

NewGuy01

Mace can only truly compete with Sidious through Vaapad's looper-duper stuff anyway.

Ragnosfan1998

Windu easy.

KuRuPT Thanosi

How many times do I need to say stop bringing up some random quote about sparring... it's SPARRING and nothing. Not even remotely comparable to a real fight to the death between enemies. Further, as others have agreed, Mace undoubledly beat Dooku in sparring as well. It's not like they sparred only once and Dooku won.. That just isn't so. So not only does sparring mean jack shit.. but mace also beat Dooku.. so a big who gives a **** is appropriate.

Mace beats Dooku pretty muich every single time and that is just the way the cookie crumbles.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How many times do I need to say stop bringing up some random quote about sparring... it's SPARRING and nothing. Not even remotely comparable to a real fight to the death between enemies. Further, as others have agreed, Mace undoubledly beat Dooku in sparring as well. It's not like they sparred only once and Dooku won.. That just isn't so. So not only does sparring mean jack shit.. but mace also beat Dooku.. so a big who gives a **** is appropriate.

There's absolutely no source that I'm aware of which proved Mace ever beat Dooku. He may not have. Just because they sparred more than once does not mean Mace automatically won too, considering no one beat Mace except for Yoda and Dooku. So whose to say anyone beat Dooku except for Yoda?

Also you go on about sparring meaning absolutely nothing, but fact is the superior duelist should still win a sparring match. And there's just no getting around that fact.
Especially given the fact that it's ONLY Yoda and Dooku who were ever able to beat Windu, that in itself proves sparring clearly counts for something.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Jesus :facepalm:

Do you believe they only sparred once? Simple question, and the obvious answer is no. Obviously they would've sparred numerous times. Now, then, you're claiming that Dooku won every single time and you don't want me to laugh at that notion? I mean really... do you?

Not only does sparring not mean jack shit as it's far far away from a real fight.. but you're also forgetting that Dooku was more practiced and experienced than Windu when they did spar. This isn't peak ROTS mace.. this is a mace not as good and not using Vaapad during said sparring session. So yes, it certainly does mean **** all to ROTS going all out for the kill and using Vaapad Mace.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Jesus :facepalm:

Try it like this facepalm

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you believe they only sparred once? Simple question, and the obvious answer is no. Obviously they would've sparred numerous times. Now, then, you're claiming that Dooku won every single time and you don't want me to laugh at that notion? I mean really... do you?

I'm not claiming Dooku won every time. I'm claiming there's no proof Mace ever won, so stop acting like it's a fact that he did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not only does sparring not mean jack shit as it's far far away from a real fight..

Of course it means something. Fact is Agen Kolar isn't going to beat Yoda in a sparring match. So it does give an idea of combat prowess.

The intent behind the quote in question was clearly to show Yoda, Dooku and Mace were the top 3 Jedi duelists of the PT era (before Skywalker was a Kinght).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
but you're also forgetting that Dooku was more practiced and experienced than Windu when they did spar. This isn't peak ROTS mace.. this is a mace not as good and not using Vaapad during said sparring session. So yes, it certainly does mean **** all to ROTS going all out for the kill and using Vaapad Mace.

I've not once claimed that's exactly how a fight between their ROTS counterparts will end. In fact in my first post on this thread I said Mace has the edge.

But then even in clone war novels Mace is stated to be Dooku's equal at best. Given that and Dooku's own feats, I have a hard time believing there's a significant difference between the 2, or that Mace will win 10/10 times.

Rampant ox

Mr Thanosi has rather a bad habit of typing out blocks of drivel, interspersed with vulgar language and condescending nonsense, but notably lacking any canon examples (or indeed, grammar) to justify his increasingly absurd claims.

Pay him little attention, DP.

KuRuPT Thanosi

This coming from somebody who tried to make a point in another thread but failed miserably in doing so. You asking me for a canon source for my post is hilarious. That would be like somebody asking me for a canon source for my claim that the sky is blue i.e. idiotic. I said sparring isn't like a life and death fight between enemies. Which is 100% true n no need for a canon source. I further claimed that Mace couldn't even use vaapad during said sparring match, which again limits how effective he could be (and how it's different than a real fight). Why would I need a canon source for such a statment of common sense and fact?

Let me ask you a question... When these sparring matches took place... do you think Mace was just as good as he became in ROTS?

KuRuPT Thanosi

based on? You do realize he fought in the clone wars and gained valuable fighting experience right? You also realize that it wasn't even stated he mastered shatterpoint at the time of the so called sparring matches. Sparring matches, that nobody can say when they took place mind you.

Zett

Thanosi, we have a lot of arguments, not just sparing matches. Can't you read?

1) Dooku and Mace fought in Obsession, and it looks like a tie. Dooku was forced to flee only becasue planet was almost under the Republic's control.
2) They also fought in CW: RH, and yeah, Dooku "lost". Mace had Kenobi on his side, and Dooku lost, but wasn't beaten (you have to look at this fight if you don't understeand my point).
3) Dooku could defeat Asajj, Grievous and Sora much more easily then Mace.
4) Yoda acknowledged Dooku as the most powerful/strongest/wisest order's student (at Yoda's times).
5) Also, in DR the narrator states, that Dooku and Mace are about equal in sabers (its post-shatterpoint, so Mace already mastered his Vaapad).
6) Dooku was able to beat Mace in sparing. We don't know if Mace was using Vaapad or not. We also don't know, if Mace ever defeated Dooku in sparing.

And one last thing - there are more people, beside me, whos believe, that Vaapad wont be work against Dooku (I mean, he is darksider, so places like Vjun boosted him. i believe that Mace also can be boost by dark places. But Dooku doens't use negative emotions during fight, so Mace couldn't use Vaapad succesfuly against Count)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CgSV7Xans 00:26:20

DARTH POWER

^ Yeah I agree. His fencing isn't an aggressive style and it's something he's developed through decades of Jedi training.

Makashi can also fend off powerful aggressive attacks in a very defensive style (as shown in Crisis on Naboo against Skywalker), while keeping a hand free for Force attacks.

So even though I completely agree that Mace is probably the more "powerful" swordsman, I can imagine the Count holding off Mace all day with a combination of his slightly superior fencing skill and force mastery. Because Dooku really is a talented combatant when it comes to the all out, the way he effortlessly combines "Force" and "Sabers" together in combat.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Zett those arguments aren't even worth commenting on

1. Dooku was forced to flee and showed nothing that would lead us to believe he could beat mace
2. Again this doesn't show how dooku even stands a chance
3. This point is very relative indeed.. Mace had no issue with ventress at all and like the next example Dooku trained Vantress (never a good idea to use examples of pepole training somebody and beating them easier.. that SHOULD happen) ... Dooku trained The General and thus is an expect on how he fights... a luxury Mace doesn't have.. and lastly Mace also beat Sora.. and if you remeber wasn't even wanting to fight in the first place and injured.
4. Yoda didn't state that.. He stated Dooku was their biggest failure... post the quote that says Strongest and most powerful. Again, Mace is still in the order... so their biggest and most powerful failure woudl be dooku as he actually left.. Mace was still with the council.
5. This isn't proof of anything really
6. Sparring is aprring and already adressed

Lastly, you're totally wrong.. When yoda fought Dooku in AOTC.. He states right away... I sense the darkside in you. Clearly, Yoda could sense it right away and thus Dooku most defiantly was exhibiting DS energies that Mace coudl feed on. To say nothign fo the fact that we know Dooku is a DS and gets a boost on a nexus. So stop acting liek Mace woudn't get a booost.. he most certainly would.

DARTH POWER

KT you've refused to accept any evidence on Dooku's side but I've not actually seen you provide evidence anywhere that Mace takes this.

KuRuPT Thanosi

You mean other than:

1. Mace being able to use Vaapad on Dooku which gives him a decided edge against DS Dooku?
2. You mean besides Mace having Shatterponit, which again, gives him an edge in swordplay with Dooku?
3. You mean besides mace beating somebody that is superior to dooku is virtually anyway imaginable and his confirmed master?
4. you mean besides them having very similar TK feats, which means, it will likely come down to swordplay.. and Mace has the advantage there?
5. you mean besides Sidious literally beating a better team with ease than dooku did struggling with a weaker team (ventress and savage)?
6. You mean besides Dooku fencing style being vulnerable to aggressive hard strking forms... which is something Mace is known for.. strength and aggression.
7. You mean besides Dooku not being to beat Yoda and even being on the losing end of a fight on a DS nexus.. Granted it's yoda.. but if dooku were truly elite.. he should've gotten the better of the fight while amped
8. You mean besides Lucas saying you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.. i.e. no mention of Dooku and him being able to compete
9. You mean besides Gillard naming the only 9's as Mace.. Anakin.. Sids and Yoda.. i.e. again no mention of Dooku beint elite or a 9.

Yeah pretty much anybody but a dooku fanboy can see Mace wins this fight.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean other than:

1. Mace being able to use Vaapad on Dooku which gives him a decided edge against DS Dooku?
2. You mean besides Mace having Shatterponit, which again, gives him an edge in swordplay with Dooku?
3. You mean besides mace beating somebody that is superior to dooku is virtually anyway imaginable and his confirmed master?
4. you mean besides them having very similar TK feats, which means, it will likely come down to swordplay.. and Mace has the advantage there?
5. you mean besides Sidious literally beating a better team with ease than dooku did struggling with a weaker team (ventress and savage)?
6. You mean besides Dooku fencing style being vulnerable to aggressive hard strking forms... which is something Mace is known for.. strength and aggression.
7. You mean besides Dooku not being to beat Yoda and even being on the losing end of a fight on a DS nexus.. Granted it's yoda.. but if dooku were truly elite.. he should've gotten the better of the fight while amped
8. You mean besides Lucas saying you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.. i.e. no mention of Dooku and him being able to compete
9. You mean besides Gillard naming the only 9's as Mace.. Anakin.. Sids and Yoda.. i.e. again no mention of Dooku beint elite or a 9.

Yeah pretty much anybody but a dooku fanboy can see Mace wins this fight.

1. This won't help him against Dooku. He doesn't fight with aggression or rage, but rather finese and calm. This will give Mace no advantage here.

2. Shatterpoint rarely aids Mace in battle, and has never done something that important while fighting. The closest thing is sensing that Sidious trusted Anakin.

3. As if Mace could defeat Sidious in an actual fight. Get over it, kid. Mace was nothing but bait for Anakin to take.

4. Dooku's TK feats are firmly superior to Mace's. Still, it can be said that the are relative in level of ability with it. But TK is not the Force's only application.

5. I doubt Sidious could have done it quite that easily in different circumstance. Also--That's Sidious, not Mace.

6. Mace is not known for strength, he's known for speed, aggression, and unpredictability. Anakin and Saesee Tiin are more strength-oriented. Mace is not a power duelist. XD

7. In that same book where this fight takes place, it clearly states on neutral ground that Mace and Dooku are equals. Thus Mace would do no better with said amp.

8. Mace can only compete with Sidious due to the superconducting loop, which will not be as effective against Dooku.

9. Perhaps Dooku is not a 9 as a duelist (Though it's not confirmed that he's not a 9, he just wasn't confirmed to be one) he still makes up for it with his superior Force Competence.

Dooku and Mace are equals.

Zett

1, 2 - I already proved, that with Vaapad and SP they are about equals.
3 - I believe that Sidious threw the fight.
4 - As NewGuy01 said, Dooku's TK skills are superior.
5 - It was Sidious, I doubt, that Mace would be able to do that. I'm not even sure about Yoda.
6 - As DP said, Dooku's Makashi can fend of a powerful attacks. You have to look at Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan from E3. In a few situations, it looks like he's equaly strong to both of them. Only Anakin, when he started to use his full strenght (physical and in the force) is able to overcome the Count. Mace isn't physicaly as strong as Anakin and Anakins is stronger with the force as well.
7 - None from the movies is able to stand a chance against Yoda in lightsaber fight. Sidious lost to him very quickly, Dooku lost to him twice (but at the end wasn't disarmed like Sidious).
8 - Yeah, and later said, that Palpatine threw the force fight. Gj.
9 - Perhaps is, and perhaps not. All we do know, is that he was able to easily deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan (both tier 8 swordsmen at the moment), and lost only to Anakin , who reached his prime at this fight.

And someone as you called me fanboy? You're pretty funny guy smile

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean other than:

1. Mace being able to use Vaapad on Dooku which gives him a decided edge against DS Dooku?

Please explain the exact mechanics of how this will give Mace the win over Dooku. As well as an explanation for why those same mechanics did not give Windu a decided edge over Sidious or heck even give Sora Bulq a decided edge over Dooku.

And I want EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. You mean besides Mace having Shatterponit, which again, gives him an edge in swordplay with Dooku?

Something he had at the times when Dooku used to beat him sparring. Something he had when Mace was named to be Dooku's equal during the Clone Wars.

Makashi much like Soresu can be used very defensively in combat. Both Vapaad and Shatterpoint will have a difficult time getting through it's defenses.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. You mean besides mace beating somebody that is superior to dooku is virtually anyway imaginable and his confirmed master?

PROVE Sidious is better than Dooku in every imaginable way including Saber technical skill and Saber defenses.

Again I want EVIDENCE, something you seem to be lacking.

Also your double standards are at work again. Whenever I asked you to explain how Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi, you always claimed that nothing needs to be explained there, it's just different styles at work.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. you mean besides them having very similar TK feats, which means, it will likely come down to swordplay.. and Mace has the advantage there?

Dooku has the better feats and is the confirmed "Most Learned" in the ways of the force. Not to mention you can't always break it down into 1.Sabers, 2.Force to decide the all out, because sometimes the all out is a completely different game. Which is very applicable to Dooku who is superb at combining Sabers and Force attacks together as demonstrated throughout his Movie, Animation and EU appearances.

So again PROVE Dooku's Tk won't effect Mace. Prove Mace will win the Saber fight. Again you lack EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. you mean besides Sidious literally beating a better team with ease than dooku did struggling with a weaker team (ventress and savage)?

Wow! Wow! So much wrong with this. I can't believe you even brought this up. This is the most irrelevant argument ever.

Firstly, I'm sorry, who are we arguing here again?

I mean wow this is seriously going beyond A>B>C. This is more like B beat D & E >> than C Beat D&F, therefore A>C.

A more direct example would be Dooku pasting Bulq and Tholme much more easily than Mace was able to handle just Bulq.

Not to mention Sidious used his far superior force powers (to both Mace and Dooku) to aid him in pasting Maul and Opress, as well as a completely different combat style to both of them (Jar Kai).

And weren't you just going on a few posts ago about how it's much easier for Dooku to beat Ventress and Grievous because he trained them? Did you completely forget who it was who trained Maul?!

And didn't Dooku almost beat a superior duo with Kenobi and Skywalker? And didn't Dooku completely STOMP the guy, who you keep arguing has a completely legitimate win over Maul and Opress?!

Yeah this argument fails on several levels. But your double standards are what stand out as usual.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
6. You mean besides Dooku fencing style being vulnerable to aggressive hard strking forms... which is something Mace is known for.. strength and aggression.

This is actually a complete lie. Prove this to me! EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Dooku has fended off someone MORE POWERFUL than Mace, in the form of Yoda.

Makashi is an ideal style to fend off powerful attacks. Almost as good as Soresu I'd say. It doesn't generate the same kinetic energy because it's a one handed style and won't generate the same kinetic energy as 2 handed blows. But it still easily deals with power blows by giving ground and slanting the blows to the side.

Again No eveidence and proof you don't really know much about the different Saber forms. Makashi is the best for fencing. End of story.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
7. You mean besides Dooku not being to beat Yoda and even being on the losing end of a fight on a DS nexus.. Granted it's yoda.. but if dooku were truly elite.. he should've gotten the better of the fight while amped

Yeah in the same source that confirms Dooku >/= Windu. Yeah you can't just pick and choose which parts of a source you like KT.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
8. You mean besides Lucas saying you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.. i.e. no mention of Dooku and him being able to compete

And you clearly have to be Yoda, Sidious, Mace or Skywalker to compete against Count Dooku, so I guess no one else has a chance at beating Skywalker right?

Refer back to your double standards of Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
9. You mean besides Gillard naming the only 9's as Mace.. Anakin.. Sids and Yoda.. i.e. again no mention of Dooku beint elite or a 9.

Speculation. Again no proof. But Dooku was shown fending off a superior level 9 to Mace(Yoda) in the movies.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yeah pretty much anybody but a dooku fanboy can see Mace wins this fight.

Your Mace fanboyism isn't helping to provide any solid arguments or EVIDENCE.

Zett

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

4. Yoda didn't state that.. He stated Dooku was their biggest failure... post the quote that says Strongest and most powerful. Again, Mace is still in the order... so their biggest and most powerful failure woudl be dooku as he actually left.. Mace was still with the council.

And? They were talk about Anakin firstly. And he also was in the order at the moment.

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." - Yoda: DR

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. This won't help him against Dooku. He doesn't fight with aggression or rage, but rather finese and calm. This will give Mace no advantage here.

2. Shatterpoint rarely aids Mace in battle, and has never done something that important while fighting. The closest thing is sensing that Sidious trusted Anakin.

3. As if Mace could defeat Sidious in an actual fight. Get over it, kid. Mace was nothing but bait for Anakin to take.

4. Dooku's TK feats are firmly superior to Mace's. Still, it can be said that the are relative in level of ability with it. But TK is not the Force's only application.

5. I doubt Sidious could have done it quite that easily in different circumstance. Also--That's Sidious, not Mace.

6. Mace is not known for strength, he's known for speed, aggression, and unpredictability. Anakin and Saesee Tiin are more strength-oriented. Mace is not a power duelist. XD

7. In that same book where this fight takes place, it clearly states on neutral ground that Mace and Dooku are equals. Thus Mace would do no better with said amp.

8. Mace can only compete with Sidious due to the superconducting loop, which will not be as effective against Dooku.

9. Perhaps Dooku is not a 9 as a duelist (Though it's not confirmed that he's not a 9, he just wasn't confirmed to be one) he still makes up for it with his superior Force Competence.

Dooku and Mace are equals.

1. DS energies flow in him and Yoda sensed them RIGHT AWAY. If there are darkside energies flowing in him.. it stands to reason Mace can amp off of them. Stop being obtuse. I already proved energies can be sensed in dooku and thus he's using them.

2. Actually SP allowed Mace to beat somebody superior to Dooku. SP allowed mace to break the window.. KNOWING ti would slow sids spped down and make him loose footing on the wet ground. Did you forget that little part?

3. Mace did beat Sids and OVERPOWERED HIM per Lucas. There is little next to no evidence that Sids threw the entire fight. He was disarmed and overpowered by Mace PERIOD. The only thing you could say.. is he faked being as weak as he was at the end. But the Mace disarmed him and dealt with his force attacks. me and master han have driven off the notion that Sids threw the entire fight. We can do it again with you two if you want.

4. Actually they are firmly above Mace's... please prove this point.

5. Mace beat Sidious so thus he could very well do that.. and probably easier being that he would get a big amp off the brothers.

6. You have no clue what you're talking about here. Mace species are SPECIFICALLY known for their strength. His saber style is an aggressive strength and speed based form. It absolutly gives him an advantage over Dooku's style

7. Words about being equal mean very little. Actions mean more. Mace beat somebody tha is Dooku's superior in virtually every single way. That counts for more than random quotes about being equal and sparring. Feats > narration.

8. It will be in effect Dooku is a confirmed DS who's energies can be felt almost immediatly by some. it will be in effect.

9. His supposed superior TK, which isn't really superior, wont win him the fight. The fight will come down to Sabers and Mace will win.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Zett
1, 2 - I already proved, that with Vaapad and SP they are about equals.
3 - I believe that Sidious threw the fight.
4 - As NewGuy01 said, Dooku's TK skills are superior.
5 - It was Sidious, I doubt, that Mace would be able to do that. I'm not even sure about Yoda.
6 - As DP said, Dooku's Makashi can fend of a powerful attacks. You have to look at Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan from E3. In a few situations, it looks like he's equaly strong to both of them. Only Anakin, when he started to use his full strenght (physical and in the force) is able to overcome the Count. Mace isn't physicaly as strong as Anakin and Anakins is stronger with the force as well.
7 - None from the movies is able to stand a chance against Yoda in lightsaber fight. Sidious lost to him very quickly, Dooku lost to him twice (but at the end wasn't disarmed like Sidious).
8 - Yeah, and later said, that Palpatine threw the force fight. Gj.
9 - Perhaps is, and perhaps not. All we do know, is that he was able to easily deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan (both tier 8 swordsmen at the moment), and lost only to Anakin , who reached his prime at this fight.

And someone as you called me fanboy? You're pretty funny guy smile

1. Actually you didn't prove this at all.... Mace will get an amp from Dooku and will feed off his energies. Period. Said amp is more than enough to turn the tide of a fight of near equals. Prove Dooku doesn't exhibit an DS energies..

3. You can believe what you want but proof is on the side of Sids not throwing the fight and it's SIGNIFICANTLY on the side of him not throwing the fight. If you care to debate this point.. I can shut your arguments down just like I did all the others who tried to peddle this theory. Just say the word and we'll see how has more proof.

4. Prove his skills are superior.. which feats?

5. mace beat sidious... so why woudln't Mace be able to do that? Not to mention the brothers alos have DS energies flowing through them.. thus mace will get a nice amp from them. If sidious can.. Mace more cetainly can.

6. Anakin is not stronger in the force at the time of ROTS.. That is a complete and total lie. He has the potential to be stronger than Mace in the force feats.. but he isn't there yet. Further, the ROTS novelization makes it clear (as dp admitted) that Dooku's style is vulnerable to powerful attacks because it only uses one had when in a saber fight. Thus two handed strikes can overcome Dooku's style. This is also stated in the essential guide. Dooku's style is vulnerable to powerful striking attacks as it can eventually wear down that form. Windu is known for his strength and aggression thus his style will tax Dooku

7. Point is he lost.. and lost while getting an amp. You amp Mace in a fight with Yoda... I'm confident he doesn't get disarmed or lose a lightsaber fight against Yoda. Overall he might still lose... but he would certainly not lose the saber portion of it like Sids and Dooku did WHILE AMPED mind you

8.. HE WAS OVERPOWERED AND DISARMED. He had a saber at his throat.. HE LOST THE FIGHT PER LUCAS. The only portion o fthe fight he faked was after again Mace handled his lighting attack and it was deforming Sids and he was struggling himself. He thus decided ti was bettter to try and fake being weak and out of energy so Anakin could step in. That doesn't change the fact that he was OVERPOWERED and DISARMED and tried to kill Mace with his lighting but only deformed himself from it arcing back at him.

9.. Actually he didn't reach his prime.. He only became a 9 in saber combat once he turned to the DS. he was an 8 before that. So Anakin as a 8 beat dooku.. so we can say with certainty dooku is no 9 like mace.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Please explain the exact mechanics of how this will give Mace the win over Dooku. As well as an explanation for why those same mechanics did not give Windu a decided edge over Sidious or heck even give Sora Bulq a decided edge over Dooku.

And I want EVIDENCE.

Something he had at the times when Dooku used to beat him sparring. Something he had when Mace was named to be Dooku's equal during the Clone Wars.

Makashi much like Soresu can be used very defensively in combat. Both Vapaad and Shatterpoint will have a difficult time getting through it's defenses.

PROVE Sidious is better than Dooku in every imaginable way including Saber technical skill and Saber defenses.

Again I want EVIDENCE, something you seem to be lacking.

Also your double standards are at work again. Whenever I asked you to explain how Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi, you always claimed that nothing needs to be explained there, it's just different styles at work.

Dooku has the better feats and is the confirmed "Most Learned" in the ways of the force. Not to mention you can't always break it down into 1.Sabers, 2.Force to decide the all out, because sometimes the all out is a completely different game. Which is very applicable to Dooku who is superb at combining Sabers and Force attacks together as demonstrated throughout his Movie, Animation and EU appearances.

So again PROVE Dooku's Tk won't effect Mace. Prove Mace will win the Saber fight. Again you lack EVIDENCE.

Wow! Wow! So much wrong with this. I can't believe you even brought this up. This is the most irrelevant argument ever.

Firstly, I'm sorry, who are we arguing here again?

I mean wow this is seriously going beyond A>B>C. This is more like B beat D & E >> than C Beat D&F, therefore A>C.

A more direct example would be Dooku pasting Bulq and Tholme much more easily than Mace was able to handle just Bulq.

Not to mention Sidious used his far superior force powers (to both Mace and Dooku) to aid him in pasting Maul and Opress, as well as a completely different combat style to both of them (Jar Kai).

And weren't you just going on a few posts ago about how it's much easier for Dooku to beat Ventress and Grievous because he trained them? Did you completely forget who it was who trained Maul?!

And didn't Dooku almost beat a superior duo with Kenobi and Skywalker? And didn't Dooku completely STOMP the guy, who you keep arguing has a completely legitimate win over Maul and Opress?!

Yeah this argument fails on several levels. But your double standards are what stand out as usual.

This is actually a complete lie. Prove this to me! EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Dooku has fended off someone MORE POWERFUL than Mace, in the form of Yoda.

Makashi is an ideal style to fend off powerful attacks. Almost as good as Soresu I'd say. It doesn't generate the same kinetic energy because it's a one handed style and won't generate the same kinetic energy as 2 handed blows. But it still easily deals with power blows by giving ground and slanting the blows to the side.

Again No eveidence and proof you don't really know much about the different Saber forms. Makashi is the best for fencing. End of story.

Yeah in the same source that confirms Dooku >/= Windu. Yeah you can't just pick and choose which parts of a source you like KT.

And you clearly have to be Yoda, Sidious, Mace or Skywalker to compete against Count Dooku, so I guess no one else has a chance at beating Skywalker right?

Refer back to your double standards of Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi.

Speculation. Again no proof. But Dooku was shown fending off a superior level 9 to Mace(Yoda) in the movies.

Your Mace fanboyism isn't helping to provide any solid arguments or EVIDENCE.

1. Explain the exact mechanics.. LOL.. You're better than this DP.. do read the ROTS and Shatterpoint and you'll find the exact mechanics. Suffice to say they lay it out very nicely and you've already been shown this numerous times. I'm not going to induldge somebody who acts like he doesn't know something he's known for years. Are you claiming Vaapad won't work against Dooku or give him any amp? If so, then you need to prove it. We know Mace can get an amp from a DS.. thus it's on you to prove it won't give him one against DS dooku

2. Narration about sparring again eh? That is the best you can do? I've already shown how sparring means very little and not even close to comparable to an actual fight. You keep on relying on narration.. I'm relying on feats.

3. You just admitted Dooku's style is susceptible to powerful two hand striking forms like forms 6 and 7. That is exactly what Mace has. He is known for his strength and power. The ROTS make it clear that Anakin's aggressive powerful attacks were taxing dooku EACH AND EVERY TIME Dooku merely blocked them. Do you deny this? Do you also deny Mace is from a species known for their strength?

4. I need to prove Sidious is superior to Dooku? Are you being an idiot again DP? Do you think Sidious is doou's supeior? I know you do.. and thus it doesn't matter if you have an issue with in virtually every way imanginable line. The fact is he's his noted superior. Thus mace beating somebody superior to him... still means he shoudl beat Dooku. So tell me then.. which ways are Dooku supeiror to Sids?

5. Should I post your quotes where you say their TK feats are about the same (which they are). Should I quote you.. or are you going to admit to saying this? Thus where was I wrong saying their TK feats are about the same.. when you've said the exact same thing. You make this too easy DP.

5. Dooku didn't beat a superior duo.. in fact he lost one via one even. He lost to somebody that was a confirmed 8 in dueling and a relative noob in his training next to Dooku. Yes Dooku lost to him solo.. let alone not beating them as a team. Sids beat the duo without an amp mace will have a gainst them.

6. You need to prove Dooku's TK will win him the fight and Mace won't be able to deal with it. I don't need to prove your case. You need to learn how evidence works. If you believe Dooku's TK will win the day you need to prove it. I don't need to prove a negative. All I do need to do.. is show somebody with superior TK to dooku.. tyring it on Mace and mace countering it and not being pushing out the window. Again we go back to Mace dealing with somebody superior to Dooku.

7. Fending off? You mean both fights he was on the losing end of both times.. once while he was even amped and Yoda injured. That is the best proof you can come up with?

8. Dooku lost to a level 8 in anakin... Lucas states you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sids.. No mention of Dooku at all.. who has expressed his clear inferiority to Sids via narration. So neither dooku nor lucas believe Dooku can compete with Sids.. but what we do know is the no. 1 source for canon says Mace can.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. Explain the exact mechanics.. LOL.. You're better than this DP.. do read the ROTS and Shatterpoint and you'll find the exact mechanics. Suffice to say they lay it out very nicely and you've already been shown this numerous times. I'm not going to induldge somebody who acts like he doesn't know something he's known for years. Are you claiming Vaapad won't work against Dooku or give him any amp? If so, then you need to prove it. We know Mace can get an amp from a DS.. thus it's on you to prove it won't give him one against DS dooku

Concession accepted. You have no idea how Vapaad is going to give Mace the winning edge over Dooku, when it didn't give him the winning edge over Sidious. Best it did was negate Sidious's power advantage. That won't be an issue for Dooku. Especially not with such an elegant and precise fencing style like Makashi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Narration about sparring again eh? That is the best you can do? I've already shown how sparring means very little and not even close to comparable to an actual fight. You keep on relying on narration.. I'm relying on feats.

Beating him in sparring is a feat. Not to mention you've ignored the part how they are called equals in narration very late in the clone war.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. You just admitted Dooku's style is susceptible to powerful two hand striking forms like forms 6 and 7. That is exactly what Mace has. He is known for his strength and power. The ROTS make it clear that Anakin's aggressive powerful attacks were taxing dooku EACH AND EVERY TIME Dooku merely blocked them. Do you deny this? Do you also deny Mace is from a species known for their strength?

What did I admit? I think you need to go back and read what I posted.

Makashi is the best form for fencing. It is not weak to form 4,5 or 7 just because those forms choose to use 2 handed strikes Lol.

Urmm Dooku fended off all of Anakin's blows until Anakin went into Zone mode. Dooku also fended off all of Yoda's blows. Both those 2 have more raw power than Windu, so please explain to me why on Earth Dooku will not be able to fend off Windu's blows.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. I need to prove Sidious is superior to Dooku? Are you being an idiot again DP? Do you think Sidious is doou's supeior? I know you do.. and thus it doesn't matter if you have an issue with in virtually every way imanginable line. The fact is he's his noted superior. Thus mace beating somebody superior to him... still means he shoudl beat Dooku. So tell me then.. which ways are Dooku supeiror to Sids?

Oh he's "noted" to be superior. Well Mace is "noted" to be Dooku's equal, and that's the best case scenario for Mace that's "noted."

Yes exactly what he's better than him at does matter. Of course it matters. Only a TRUE Idiot would claim it doesn't. In fact it's the whole reason we end up with the whole A>B>C>A scenarios.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. Should I post your quotes where you say their TK feats are about the same (which they are). Should I quote you.. or are you going to admit to saying this? Thus where was I wrong saying their TK feats are about the same.. when you've said the exact same thing. You make this too easy DP.

Approx the same. But Dooku has slightly better mastery over TK. Hence why he can dispose of people like Bulq and Kenobi so damn easily.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. Dooku didn't beat a superior duo.. in fact he lost one via one even. He lost to somebody that was a confirmed 8 in dueling and a relative noob in his training next to Dooku. Yes Dooku lost to him solo.. let alone not beating them as a team. Sids beat the duo without an amp mace will have a gainst them.

What the heck are you talking about. You actually have the nerve to carry on this point? Who the heck was the level 8 who beat Dooku? Please don't tell me your calling ZonAkin a level 8 now.

Dooku almost defeated Kenobi and Skywalker together until Skywalker went up a level or 2.

Dooku completely stomped Kenobi, the guy you claim can defeat both Maul and Opress together. So by your own logic Dooku can completely stomp Maul and Opress together. Whose the idiot now?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
6. You need to prove Dooku's TK will win him the fight and Mace won't be able to deal with it. I don't need to prove your case. You need to learn how evidence works. If you believe Dooku's TK will win the day you need to prove it. I don't need to prove a negative. All I do need to do.. is show somebody with superior TK to dooku.. tyring it on Mace and mace countering it and not being pushing out the window. Again we go back to Mace dealing with somebody superior to Dooku.

I don't need to prove anything, because I never claimed Dooku's TK will win him the day. I claimed that Dooku with his slightly Superior mastery over TK, and his slightly Superior fencing skill and with his talent for carrying out simultaneous force and saber attacks during combat and with his defensive saber style, could hold off Mace all day.

Basically I'm arguing that even if Dooku has trouble overpowering Mace, he could stalemate him any day.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
7. Fending off? You mean both fights he was on the losing end of both times.. once while he was even amped and Yoda injured. That is the best proof you can come up with?

I think you need to watch the AOTC fight again. Dooku wasn't giving ground at all, and was fending off all of Yoda's aggressive attacks. Attacks which are far more powerful than Mace Windu's attacks.

And LOL at the Amped Dooku who 1) Also fended off Yoda Saber attacks pretty damn well, and 2) Was confirmed in the same source, and same damn fight, as Mace's equal.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
8. Dooku lost to a level 8 in anakin... Lucas states you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sids.. No mention of Dooku at all.. who has expressed his clear inferiority to Sids via narration. So neither dooku nor lucas believe Dooku can compete with Sids.. but what we do know is the no. 1 source for canon says Mace can.

LOL at calling ZonAnakin a level 8. Seriously KT your losing it. Dooku almsot stomped 2 level 8's together (Kenobi and normal Anakin). Gillard said that Anakin using his rage becomes a level 9. That's exactly what Zone Anakin was doing, using his rage, and using the dark side, as confirmed by the novel and the script.

So worst case scenario Dooku is a very high level 8, or a low level 9. ZonAkin would have beat Windu too btw. Almost everyone on these boards agrees to that. In fact Lucas himself has now shown and agreed Zone Anakin can Overpower the Son and Daughter together, who are significantly more powerful than Sidious and Yoda together! Try thinking about that for a second.

So what if Mace can compete with Sids. Kenobi CAN NOT compete with Dooku, whilst Anakin can. And your the one who argues Kenobi is Anakin's superior any day of the week.

See what I mean by your constant double standards now? You really have to stop with that, and start trying to bring proof to the table.

KuRuPT Thanosi

1. There is no concession... I'm not going to go over something you already know.. Next, answer my question?

2. Actually beating him in sparring was narration.. there was no specifics about how the sparring went.. which is in stark contrasts to a great number of fights we do see in the movies or in the novels. Not to mention sparring are of the same quality as real fights. We've been over this before.

3. BEFORE he went into the zone.. Anakin's strikes were damaging Dooku's force reserves just fending them off. This was before Kenobi was even taken out. You need to read the novel again. This was explained because of the Kinectic Energy (you even referenced this) used by powerful two handed strikes from strong people can tax somebody only using one arm to defend against them. This was even stated in the essential guide for Dooku's form. Stop acting like you have no idea about this when it was even stated in the novel you claim to have read.

4. I'm waiting for what Dooku is superior to Sids at.. Should I make a thread that aks others what Dooku is superior at when compared to Sids? Are you claiming Sids isn't dooku superior in virtually every way?

5. Concession accepted they have very close TK feats.. This will not win the fight for Dooku is the point.

6. Anakin was a level 8 when he beat Dooku. It was stated WHEN HE TURNED TO THE DS AND BECAME A SITH HE BECAME A LEVEL 9. It wasn't stated when he got angry. He specifically notes that he became a 9 when he became a sith. So Dooku lost to a level 8. Mace is a level 9. Common sense DP.. use it.

7. He won't stalemate him because Mace will be feeding off of Dooku's DS energies... While dooku won't be feeding on anything. So no it won't end in a stalemate. The best you can hope for is a long drawn out fight with near equals i nsabers... but mace eventually finding Dooku's shatterpoint or simply wearing him down with his powerful strikes.

8. Yoda's attacks aren't more powerful than Mace's LOL.. WHERE THE HECK DID YOU GET THAT IDEA. Yoda is more powerful in the force.. but he's not stronger than Mace.. that is beyond idiotic to even suggest such a thing. Mace is vastly stronger than yoda and his species is SPECIFICALLY noted for their strength. yoda is a half pint.. he could never be as strong as a prime Mace.. maybe when mace was 10.. but that's about it. Mace's blows will tax Dooku's defense and everytually overcome them.

The_Tempest

Regarding the "strength" comparison of Yoda and Mace, while Mace undoubtedly enjoys an advantage in natural physicality, I think you're neglecting the role played by the Force.

Those strong in the Force can obviously compensate for physical frailty; Savage Opress can b1tchslap the likes of Obi-Wan, Dooku, and Anakin (who is specifically noted by Dooku in the ROTS novel for his prodigious strength in physical and metaphysical realms)... yet Sidious demonstrates "enormous strength" that "shocks" Opress, to say nothing of the fact that Sidious later ragdolls him with an elbow to the face and then a kick to the chest.

So it is entirely possible that Yoda, when calling on the Force, surpasses Mace in physical strength.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Possible yes... probable no... While it's true that Yoda can amp his physical attacks when calling on the force... it would only surpass those not also strong in the force. For example i believe Yoda is stronger than Fisto.. even though Physical is bigger and could naturally lift more without the force invloved. But fisto is so far behind Yoda in the force.. that Yoda would still be stronger. This isn't the case with Mace.. who is also very strong in the force. Not yoda strong.. but one of the strongest in the force behind only Yoda. Thus, Mace already being vastly stronger physically than Yoda to start.. plus being strong in the force as well.. would mean Mace would still be stronger.

Plus we're talking about striking power here.. not ability to lift objects or TK somebody with the force. That I also believe yoda would be stronger. But Yoda has never even been hinted at as having powerful strikes. In fact, he uses the form he does to compensate for his physical limitations. He uses speed and agility to win.. not overwhelming somebody with powerful Strikes. Mace on the other hand.. is known for delivering powerful blows, much like Anakin, so those blows like Anakin... will tax dooku's one hand style was my point.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. DS energies flow in him and Yoda sensed them RIGHT AWAY. If there are darkside energies flowing in him.. it stands to reason Mace can amp off of them. Stop being obtuse. I already proved energies can be sensed in dooku and thus he's using them.

2. Actually SP allowed Mace to beat somebody superior to Dooku. SP allowed mace to break the window.. KNOWING ti would slow sids spped down and make him loose footing on the wet ground. Did you forget that little part?

3. Mace did beat Sids and OVERPOWERED HIM per Lucas. There is little next to no evidence that Sids threw the entire fight. He was disarmed and overpowered by Mace PERIOD. The only thing you could say.. is he faked being as weak as he was at the end. But the Mace disarmed him and dealt with his force attacks. me and master han have driven off the notion that Sids threw the entire fight. We can do it again with you two if you want.

4. Actually they are firmly above Mace's... please prove this point.

5. Mace beat Sidious so thus he could very well do that.. and probably easier being that he would get a big amp off the brothers.

6. You have no clue what you're talking about here. Mace species are SPECIFICALLY known for their strength. His saber style is an aggressive strength and speed based form. It absolutly gives him an advantage over Dooku's style

7. Words about being equal mean very little. Actions mean more. Mace beat somebody tha is Dooku's superior in virtually every single way. That counts for more than random quotes about being equal and sparring. Feats > narration.

8. It will be in effect Dooku is a confirmed DS who's energies can be felt almost immediatly by some. it will be in effect.

9. His supposed superior TK, which isn't really superior, wont win him the fight. The fight will come down to Sabers and Mace will win.

1. Oh man, you really don't get how Vaapad works, do you?

2. He slashed the window with his saber. Also, Sidious even proclaimed that Shatterpoint had failed Windu, as it wasn't Sidious's fear he was sensing. Or did you forget that little part?

3. Go right ahead and try, but from the quality of your previous arguments I'm rather positive you can't prove anything. In fact I think I know exactly what you're going to say.

4. Simple. Mace's best non-OCW Force Feats are lifting a medium sized vehicle, sending Droidekas flying, and causing a large gateway to fall. Dooku has collapsed metal bridges, ragdolled Savage and Kenobi, and lifted every chair in the Council Chamber with considerable ease. Dooku's superiority is pretty clear.

5. We werent talking about his battle against the brothers dumbass. Also, you have yet to prove that Mace was superior to Sidious, even though canon statements put Yoda a head above him. And per basically everything, Sidious and Yoda were equals, or Sidious was the better if the two.

6. This doesn't matter. He doesn't rely on strength in combat, and refers to Saesee Tiin as a "stronger" individual. Vaapad relies on Speed and Ferocity in combat, get it through your head. Mace is not a power duelist, nor was he ever hinted to be.

7. Dooku's feats are better than Mace's if anything. You're still stuck on the "mace beet sidious so he own dooky". Not good enough wink

8. Refer to #1.

9. laughing

ROTJ Vader

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Regarding the "strength" comparison of Yoda and Mace, while Mace undoubtedly enjoys an advantage in natural physicality, I think you're neglecting the role played by the Force.

Those strong in the Force can obviously compensate for physical frailty; Savage Opress can b1tchslap the likes of Obi-Wan, Dooku, and Anakin (who is specifically noted by Dooku in the ROTS novel for his prodigious strength in physical and metaphysical realms)... yet Sidious demonstrates "enormous strength" that "shocks" Opress, to say nothing of the fact that Sidious later ragdolls him with an elbow to the face and then a kick to the chest.

So it is entirely possible that Yoda, when calling on the Force, surpasses Mace in physical strength.

Agreed. Yoda>Mace in physical strength. Yoda carried a giant crate with ease, Windus best strength feat was choke slamming a battle droid on Ryloth the OCW battle dosint really demonstrate physical strength since Mace would just be hitting the droids in their shatterpoint.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Possible yes... probable no... While it's true that Yoda can amp his physical attacks when calling on the force... it would only surpass those not also strong in the force. For example i believe Yoda is stronger than Fisto.. even though Physical is bigger and could naturally lift more without the force invloved. But fisto is so far behind Yoda in the force.. that Yoda would still be stronger. This isn't the case with Mace.. who is also very strong in the force. Not yoda strong.. but one of the strongest in the force behind only Yoda. Thus, Mace already being vastly stronger physically than Yoda to start.. plus being strong in the force as well.. would mean Mace would still be stronger.

Plus we're talking about striking power here.. not ability to lift objects or TK somebody with the force. That I also believe yoda would be stronger. But Yoda has never even been hinted at as having powerful strikes. In fact, he uses the form he does to compensate for his physical limitations. He uses speed and agility to win.. not overwhelming somebody with powerful Strikes. Mace on the other hand.. is known for delivering powerful blows, much like Anakin, so those blows like Anakin... will tax dooku's one hand style was my point.

I don't believe it's that cut-and-dry and I believe visual and textual evidence suggests otherwise.

Savage is incredibly powerful in the Force and, particularly for a guy with practically zero formal training, goes toe-to-toe with Dooku, Ventress, and Jedi Council members (who, lest we forget, represent the peak of the order's martial skill per The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia). Even prior to his upgrade by Talzin, Savage demonstrated superhuman physicality on par with Ventress, cracked stone with his punches and kicks, etc. When magically supersized, he ragdolls Jedi (fellow superhumans) with impunity.

And then Sidious comes along and tanks his and Maul's (another Force user known for prodigious physicality) most powerful strikes with one-handed blocks each and Shadow Conspiracy notes Savage practically shat his metal breeches. To say nothing of the strikes Sidious lands on the brothers later in the duel. Sidious blocks a strike to his back from Savage with one hand and then physically overpowers Maul in blade lock.

Yoda's impressive Force-assisted strength is apparent that he's able to fight Sidious on even terms, even on ground and in bladelock, without being steamrolled.

Neither Yoda nor Sidious are going to beat the likes of Mace and Savage in an arm-wrestling contest, but in combat, the Force flows through them in such a way that I don't think we can conclude that physically powerful men strong in the Force surpass physically frail men even stronger in the Force in the same way that we cannot conclude as much with respect to speed.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda's impressive Force-assisted strength is apparent that he's able to fight Sidious on even terms, even on ground and in bladelock, without being steamrolled.

Assuming Sidious was boosting his strength to the same degree he was in his duel with Savage and Maul.

The_Tempest

Why would we assume otherwise?

If anything, since Maul and Savage weren't nearly as dangerous to Sidious as Yoda, one would expect Sidious to put more effort into such things.

Nephthys

Because Yoda isn't as physically strong as Maul and Opress and thus he wouldn't need to assign as much power to boosting his strength to fight him? I was just pointing out that you're assuming that.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Yoda isn't as physically strong as Maul and Opress and thus he wouldn't need to assign as much power to boosting his strength to fight him? I was just pointing out that you're assuming that.

ermm

Even if your assertion were true, it wouldn't follow that Sidious would pull his punches.

Assuming that Yoda isn't as strong as Maul or Opress and yet still represents a more formidable challenge than both combined, it would follow that Sidious would exploit such a weakness, like any respectable fighter would.

Nephthys

If that were true it would mean that Sidious would have used the same level of strength against Windu since they were dueling equally. Indicating that Windu is stronger than an Opress who threw Dooku across a room in one blow.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
If that were true it would mean that Sidious would have used the same level of strength against Windu since they were dueling equally.

Who says he wasn't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indicating that Windu is stronger than an Opress who threw Dooku across a room in one blow.

Who says he isn't?

Nephthys

Because Windu and Dooku have dueled and surprisingly enough Windu didn't punt Dooku around like a saggy racist golfball.

The_Tempest

I thought that was non-canon? And who's to say Dooku didn't compensate for a deficit in strength with his fencing prowess? He was able to do the same with Savage in their training.

Nephthys

I thought it wasn't. And they fought elsewhere.

He compensated by dancing around him. I doubt he'd do the same with Windu.

Also bare in mind that Ventress has dueled Savage and Windu without being overpowered. I guess shes stronger than Dooku too.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought it wasn't. And they fought elsewhere.

And who's to say that Dooku didn't blunt this advantage in strength by virtue of sheer skill elsewhere? And who's to say Mace is naturally stronger with Force-assisted strength than either Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He compensated by dancing around him. I doubt he'd do the same with Windu.

Oh, ok, well if you doubt it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also bare in mind that Ventress has dueled Savage and Windu without being overpowered. I guess shes stronger than Dooku too.

And again, who's to say that she didn't compensate with skill?

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And who's to say that Dooku didn't blunt this advantage in strength by virtue of sheer skill elsewhere? And who's to say Mace is naturally stronger with Force-assisted strength than either Dooku?

Oh, ok, well if you doubt it.

And again, who's to say that she didn't compensate with skill?

Because his sheer skill isn't that much above Windu's that he could do that. Plus that comic has them crossing blades and Dooku isn't bouncing away. You, apparently.

Because at one point in Revenge her and Savage are in a saber lock and he fails to overpower her.

Also also, Yoda actually beat Sidious in a saberlock. So I guess Yoda should've been capable of blowing Dooku across that hanger, huh?

The_Tempest

Says who? In fact, who says one has to be more skilled to circumvent strength? Proof? And no, I didn't?

And? No one disputed the fact that Ventress is physically powerful?

In sheer strength, maybe. But then we're back to the fact that Dooku is probably skilled enough to circumvent those kind of attacks.

And even if not, you'll note I said that I don't think the formula is cut-and-dry, that obviously applies either way.

Nephthys

Yet funnily enough he wasn't skilled enough to not get punked by a noob like Savage.

The_Tempest

Savage's status as a neophyte is irrelevant when we're measuring his raw strength? An instance of failure demonstrates an incontrovertible rule?

Maybe you shouldn't be rage!posting? erm

Master Han

You know, whether or not Tempest actually thoroughly kicks Nephthys's ass every time he opens his mouth, he's mastered the fine art of Intoxicatingly Smug Rhetoric to the point where it appears that way to the casual observer.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Savage's status as a neophyte is irrelevant when we're measuring his raw strength? An instance of failure demonstrates an incontrovertible rule?

Maybe you shouldn't be rage!posting? erm

Uh, no it isn't you douche? Since you're arguing that Dooku could have nullified ll these peoples strength through skill, its kind of important that he was unable to do so against an opponent far less skilled than anyone else I've mentioned.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, no it isn't you douche?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9zta8SXyN1qgple6o1_250.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
Since you're arguing that Dooku could have nullified ll these peoples strength through skill, its kind of important that he was unable to do so against an opponent far less skilled than anyone else I've mentioned.

And yet despite having failed to do so, he successfully circumvented Savage's raw strength through superior technique earlier in the same exact episode? Therefore his instance of failure doesn't prove anything other than that Dooku can fail? Which was never in question in the first place?

Nephthys

Um, yes, by dodging him or redirecting the attack. Which he doesn't do against the other people. You can clearly see their blades clashing and Dooku blocking attacks in all those duels. Duuuuuuh.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, yes, by dodging him or redirecting the attack. Which he doesn't do against the other people. You can clearly see their blades clashing and Dooku blocking attacks in all those duels. Duuuuuuh.

And yet Dooku successfully blocks strikes from Anakin throughout their duels? And Barriss with Anakin? We're back to the fact that all I was telling KT is that the formula is "not cut and dry"? I never claimed Yoda was stronger than Mace or anyone, for that matter, just that he is strong? When the cloud of rage dissipates, you will see the truth for what it is?

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet Dooku successfully blocks strikes from Anakin throughout their duels? And Barriss with Anakin? We're back to the fact that all I was telling KT is that the formula is "not cut and dry"?

No shit. Hence why I pointed out that duelists might not go all-out for strength all the time since obviously it isn't that cut and dry.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
No shit. Hence why I pointed out that duelists might not go all-out for strength all the time since obviously it isn't that cut and dry.

Except that it would stand to reason that duelists would indeed go "all out" in the midst of a truly life-or-death scenario.

For example, Sidious is more likely to bring all his strength to bear against Yoda, an opponent that actually legitimately threatens him, than against Savage and Maul, whom he demonstrably and consistently toys with.

Now if you're determined to find a cogent in-universe explanation for such inconsistency, perhaps we could say that sometimes it is more difficult in the heat of battle to focus on augmenting physical strength while also enhancing agility, speed, and precognition? Or perhaps the Force comes to the aid of one quicker than the other?

But the idea that a Force user would deliberately restrain himself when threatened (unless otherwise noted) seems silly.

SIDIOUS 66

I always took it that Dooku was caught off-guard by Savage's sheer strength, and would have done better had he been more prepared. And even though Dooku still felt threatened by Savage's strength even after realizing just how strong Savage really was (seeing how he insisted on keeping Savage at a distance via lightning attacks), this doesn't necessarily mean he is considerably weaker than Mace. Mace's physicality (speed) was amped to Sidious' level during their duel, so I'm pretty sure the amp would have added to his strength as well. It definitely makes sense.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Now if you're determined to find a cogent in-universe explanation for such inconsistency, perhaps we could say that sometimes it is more difficult in the heat of battle to focus on augmenting physical strength while also enhancing agility, speed, and precognition? Or perhaps the Force comes to the aid of one quicker than the other?

But the idea that a Force user would deliberately restrain himself when threatened (unless otherwise noted) seems silly.

Yes, that is exactly my thinking. They'd put they're strength into other aspects since they don't require the strength as much.

Zett

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

3. BEFORE he went into the zone.. Anakin's strikes were damaging Dooku's force reserves just fending them off. This was before Kenobi was even taken out. You need to read the novel again. This was explained because of the Kinectic Energy (you even referenced this) used by powerful two handed strikes from strong people can tax somebody only using one arm to defend against them. This was even stated in the essential guide for Dooku's form. Stop acting like you have no idea about this when it was even stated in the novel you claim to have read.

It's Stover's BS man. Go and watch movie, read this book, watch movie again and... it will be clear, that this book's version of this fight is opposite to ROTS movie version. So its opposite to the highest form of canon. So it's BS.
I would prefer to use "Rise and Fall of Darth Vader". This source is describing that fight much better. Look:

"You won't get away this time, Dooku," Obi-Wan said. He and Obi-Wan
ignited their blue-bladed light-sabers and advanced on Dooku, who ignited his own red-bladed weapon. The beams of their lightsabers hummed and clashed as they moved across the chamber. Dooku defended himself effortlessly.
On the level above, the two droids didn't budge, but watched silently as the figures came to a momentary standstill. While the three lightsabers continued to blaze, Dooku grinned at his opponents and said, "I've been looking forward to this."
Not intimidated by the elder swordsman, Anakin said, "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count."
"Good," Dooku said. "Twice the pride, double the fall."
The Jedi charged once again. Dooku backed up as he parried their blows, then used the Force to throw Obi-Wan to the floor. As Anakin continued his assault on Dooku, forcing him back up the steps to the upper level, Obi- Wan recovered himself and leapt up to rejoin the fight.
The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat. As Obi-Wan gasped, Anakin swung at Dooku from behind, but Dooku kicked Anakin's stomach with his left foot, smashing the young Jedi against a nearby wall.
Obi-Wan was still suspended in the air when Dooku gestured again with his hand to send his choking victim sailing across the chamber. Obi-Wan crashed against the railing of an extended balcony, then collapsed like a broken doll to the floor. With another gesture, Dooku used the Force to tear a section of the balcony away from its braces and pin Obi-Wan's unconscious form to the floor.
Master!
Anakin threw himself at Dooku, knocking him from the balcony to the floor below.
Leaping down after his quarry, Anakin struck again and again at Dooku until both of their blades were practically locked onto each other.
"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker," Dooku said. "You have hate. You have anger.But you don't use them."
Anakin grimaced, angrier than before, the blades unlocked, and the duel resumed.
Trading blows across the chamber, they came to a stop near the hostage Palpatine.
Dooku was using both hands to grip his lightsaber, putting more of his
strength into each deadly swing, when Anakin reached out fast with his left hand to catch Dooku's wrists. In the moment that Dooku was temporarily pinned, Anakin's right hand twisted sharply to swing his lightsaber between him and the startled Dooku.
Dooku's lightsaber automatically deactivated as it flew out of his severed hands, which fell to the floor with an ugly flopping sound. His knees buckled, and he dropped to kneel beside his hands.

Master Han

^that doesn't necessarily contradict Stover, since Anakin and Obi Wan were initially holding back.

BTW, Stover's novel is higher canon.

Zett

^
No, it isn't since Anakin and Obi-wan weren't holding back. It was acctualy in script, but was finally cut off.

DOOKU lunges at the JEDI and they fall back . . .

COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.

So, movie's version is the highest. Novelisation contradict with that, so this part is noncanon.

Nephthys

Lolwut? How can Obi-Wan be tired, he doesn't ****ing do anything in that fight. How can he be tired after 10 seconds of dueling and then fight Anakin for 30 shitting minutes?

DARTH POWER

Yeah script is higher canon than Stover's novel.

Nephthys

Movies are higher canon than either and they contradict the script imo.

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by Zett
^
No, it isn't since Anakin and Obi-wan weren't holding back. It was acctualy in script, but was finally cut off.

DOOKU lunges at the JEDI and they fall back . . .

COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.

So, movie's version is the highest. Novelisation contradict with that, so this part is noncanon. I'd like to see a source for this script. It doesn't read like a script.

NewGuy01

Nah, that's just how Lucas types up script. That is an excerpt from the ROTS script.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Nephthys
Movies are higher canon than either and they contradict the script imo.

The script and the description in the The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader are almost exactly the same as the film. It's only Stover's version which is way off.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can he be tired after 10 seconds of dueling and then fight Anakin for 30 shitting minutes?

It was less than 10 minutes actually. But yeah fair point.

Zett

I've posted this part of script, because KT was using it as argument. In fact, Stover in his novel is using that part of script (moment when jedi were holding back). But it was finally cut off from the movie, so it contradict movie version. The only canon version is movie version, and Rise and Fall of Darth Vader is desribing this fight perfectly.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. There is no concession... I'm not going to go over something you already know.. Next, answer my question?

Concession accepted then. You have no idea how Vapaad works or what it will do.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Actually beating him in sparring was narration.. there was no specifics about how the sparring went.. which is in stark contrasts to a great number of fights we do see in the movies or in the novels. Not to mention sparring are of the same quality as real fights. We've been over this before.

Concession accepted again. You have no choice but to throw out canon facts of Dooku beating Mace, because you have nothing canonically stating Mace ever beating Dooku.

If Mace was so superior to Dooku in Fencing, then he should have no excuse for losing to him in their sparring matches. Fact.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. BEFORE he went into the zone.. Anakin's strikes were damaging Dooku's force reserves just fending them off. This was before Kenobi was even taken out. You need to read the novel again. This was explained because of the Kinectic Energy (you even referenced this) used by powerful two handed strikes from strong people can tax somebody only using one arm to defend against them. This was even stated in the essential guide for Dooku's form. Stop acting like you have no idea about this when it was even stated in the novel you claim to have read.

LOL at me reading the novel again. I doubt you've ever read it yourself, just heard what others have said about it. As someone who has the novel I'll quote you exactly what it says about Djem So vs Makashi:

And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.
Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen.

Upto this point is proof that Dooku was previously underestimating Skywalker and handling him all wrong which is what leads to the next comment.

His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

He can't meet him HEAD TO HEAD. I.e. He can't block head on. As I've already explained Makashi is a one handed style, which is the reason it lacks the kinetic energy generated by 2 handed power strikes. What made that more difficult was fighting off A SECOND ATTACKER.
But if you honestly think the creators of a purely fencing form made the form vulnerable to anyone who uses 2 hands, then you need to stop talking right now, because you obviously have no sense at all if that's what you think.
As I've explained before Makashi isn't about Blocking Head to Head, it's about Redirecting, Slanting away Footwork, Giving ground, precision feints and parries.
Fact is it's the best fencing form. If you don't accept this, then your ignoring canon.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. I'm waiting for what Dooku is superior to Sids at.. Should I make a thread that aks others what Dooku is superior at when compared to Sids? Are you claiming Sids isn't dooku superior in virtually every way?

Your the one claiming Sidious is superior to Dooku IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY Lol, so it's for you to prove how you know this. Because all we know for sure is that Sidious would defeat Dooku in an all out fight.
But since your asking, yes I believe Dooku's fencing SKILL, and saber defending SKLL probably is superior to Sidious's as he is THE Master of the best Fencing form.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. Concession accepted they have very close TK feats.. This will not win the fight for Dooku is the point.

What concession? I said Dooku's superior. Any you know he is. You need to stop crying about it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
6. Anakin was a level 8 when he beat Dooku. It was stated WHEN HE TURNED TO THE DS AND BECAME A SITH HE BECAME A LEVEL 9. It wasn't stated when he got angry. He specifically notes that he became a 9 when he became a sith. So Dooku lost to a level 8. Mace is a level 9. Common sense DP.. use it.

Give me the exact quote which states that ONLY SITH Anakin was a Level 9, whilst JEDI Anakin was a Level 8 the whole time he fought.

I have the Making of Revenge of the Sith in front of me so have the EXACT quote on the matter. But I want you to provide evidence of the Bullshit you've claimed here.

Skywalker giving into the darkside is what boosts his power and makes him a level 9. Nothing about Sith Anakin and Jedi Anakin are mentioned. And proof Anakin was giving into the Dark Side as he was fighting Dooku. This is from the script while Kenobi is fighting alongside him:

ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry.
And this before he defeats Dooku:
Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.

Oh and then there's this little fact LOL:

ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's head.

You want common sense. Then answer this with any sort of common sense. Dooku fought off 2 level 8's together, and then almost stomped them both together. So how could he Possibly be a level 8 from that demonstration?
Now I'm not against the idea of him being a very High level 8, or a low level 9. I'm just calling you out on your bullshit claim that Sith Anakin was a greater duelist than Zone Anakin and actually a whole level above him LOL
Your arguments are getting so stupid it's actually ridiculous. So Dooku fights off 2 level 8's, but then lose to one so he's obviously an 8. But then Kenobi's superior to a 9 because he beat a 9, so clearly Kenobi is a 10, even though he's stated to be an 8. LOL Your getting really really stupid at this point KT, and you clearly have no Star Wars sources yourself and are just talking out of your ass.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
7. He won't stalemate him because Mace will be feeding off of Dooku's DS energies... While dooku won't be feeding on anything. So no it won't end in a stalemate. The best you can hope for is a long drawn out fight with near equals i nsabers... but mace eventually finding Dooku's shatterpoint or simply wearing him down with his powerful strikes.

Show me where it states Mace "feeds from a Darksier's mere presence."

Doesn't work like that at all. Mace can deflect Powerful and Aggressive Dark Side attacks back to it's source with the same amount of power, while not giving into the dark side himself.

Since Dooku will most likely be defending himself through Footwork, Redirecting Mace's blows, Giving ground, simultaneous TK attacks, and since Mace and Dooku are peers in terms of force power anyway, then no Mace has no guaranteed win over Dooku at all.

And prove Shatterpoint is some kind of guaranteed win on a neutral setting and over a defensive form! If it was then Mace never would have lost any of those sparring matches.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
8. Yoda's attacks aren't more powerful than Mace's LOL.. WHERE THE HECK DID YOU GET THAT IDEA. Yoda is more powerful in the force.. but he's not stronger than Mace.. that is beyond idiotic to even suggest such a thing. Mace is vastly stronger than yoda and his species is SPECIFICALLY noted for their strength. yoda is a half pint.. he could never be as strong as a prime Mace.. maybe when mace was 10.. but that's about it. Mace's blows will tax Dooku's defense and everytually overcome them.

So I take it you've never heard of Force Enhanced Strength then?

There's no guarantee at all of Mace overpowering Dooku's defenses. Especially not when Dooku uses his free hand to constantly Force push Mace, and telekinetically throw stuff at him.