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whom are they? my list is:

Luke
Yoda/sidious/Caedus
yoda/sidious/Caedus
yoda/sidious/Caedus
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
anakin (ROTS)
Darth Bane (DoE)

Really tough one.

My opinion is, unlike force potential where there's a lot of different levels, there's just a few high tiers where people level out.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
whom are they? my list is:

Luke
Yoda/sidious/Caedus
yoda/sidious/Caedus
yoda/sidious/Caedus
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
anakin (ROTS)
Darth Bane (DoE)


If this is in order then ROTS Anakin needs to be above Count Dooku.

yeah and i also forgot kyle katarn, who's prolly on anakin level

so anyways, a revised list is as follows:

Luke
Yoda/Sidious/Caedus
Yoda/Sidious/Caedus
Yoda/Sidious/Caedus
Kyle Katarn
Anakin
Mace
Dooku
Plagueis
Darth Bane (DoE)

note that kyle/anakin/dooku/windu/plagueis are in any order

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Sidious
4. Hero of Tython/Caedus
5. Bane (RoT is his prime, IIRC)
6. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
7. Kas'im/Revan/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord
8. Obi Wan
9. Saba Sebatyne/Malgus/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo
10. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Maul

im too lazy to put it in tiers, lol

but why HoT so high? doesnt he have not many feats with lightsaber?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
im too lazy to put it in tiers, lol

but why HoT so high? doesnt he have not many feats with lightsaber?

Well, he defeated Vitiate primarily through bladework, as well as plenty of high level sith lords. Satele Shan calls him "our greatest champion" or something - it seems that he's prodigiously gifted with a blade. I guess we could rank him lower, if we've underestimated the role his undetermined Force abilities have on his victories. But, the Revan novel sort-of implies that he's stronger than Revan.

obviously he's probably better than revan in saber combat, but what about the force?

Probably not the Force...but that's not what the thread's about, lol.

i guess i can find a spot for him on windu/dooku/anakin/plagueis level

Exar Kun is said to have mastered Niman to a point where only Ulic could hold up against him. Considering Kun's saberstaff was small and granted him unbelievable speed. And remember, after his physical death, no ever mastered Niman the way he did. The only one close to it was Darth Maul, but he was more of a Jar'Kai/Juyo specialist. I think for this alone he probably mastered Niman like Dooku mastered Makashi.

Speaking of Maul, Maul was likely the highest trained Sith of all time. He is a product of 20 years of intense training. He basically defeated both Kenobi and Jinn in TPM. In his revival, he became more powerful, able to keep up with a more experienced, more powerful Kenobi with the help of his brother. In his final duel, he nearly defeated Sidious. This is Sidious. The man who moves so fast that Anakin couldn't follow him in the Mace Windu vs. Palpatine battle. The fact that Maul can move just as fast is extremely impressive. The fact that Maul didn't just die in seconds (cough Fisto, Kolar, Tinn cough) is amazing. This means Maul is already above nearly all the masters in the Jedi Order, being basically only below Mace Windu and Yoda. Maul's kills include Anoon Bondara, Pre Vizsla, Qui Gon Jinn, all of the Black Sun, and one more person I can't remember. Maul is a master of Juyo, and has expert skill in Niman and Jar'Kai.

Dooku is the master of Makashi. He is an expert at blast delfection and has held his own against multiple opponents such as Anakin and Kenobi, Savage Opress and Ventress, Ventress and 2 Nightsisters masquerading as Jedi, Sora Bulq and Tholme, etc, effectively overcoming the two main weaknesses of Makashi. He has even held his own against Yoda and Mace, the two best duelists in the time that he dueled them. No one EVER mastered Makashi like Dooku.

Anakin's/pre suit Vader's Djem So was to the point where the only person who was seriously better than him was Mace Windu and Yoda. He defeated Dooku, and was on the verge of overpowering Kenobi. Hadn't he be so dumb and if the duel lasted longer, he would have killed Kenobi. He has defeated Ventress numerous times, killed Dooku Cin Drallig the previous and current battlemasters, defeated over 900 and jedi basically defeated Shaak Ti (she only survived because she ran away). He alsoovercame Djem So's major weakness. Lacking in mobility compared to other forms.

Mace created Vaapad, and was the only master of it, and his skill kept growing in it. He was described by Anakin as a "purple sphere of fire" and was movng so fast, Anakin couldn't follow. Anakin has reacted to ships moving at sub light speed. Mace has dueled Ventress and defeated her, dueled Sora Bulq to a stalemate, defeated his padawan Depa Bilaba, and has (arguably) defeated Sidious in saber combat, before being WTFpwned by lightning in his face. Mace has mastered all forms of saber combat.

Palpatine is probably the greatest user of Force Speed. Because of this, he killed 3 Jedi Masters in under a second or so. He was able to defeat Maul, kill Savage Opress, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, Kit Fisto, and with the help of Anakin slicing off his hand, kill Mace. He mastered all forms. He specialized in Juyo and Jar'Kai. I think that speaks enough for him.

Yoda mastered 6 of the 7 forms, specializing in Ataru. He had mastered Ataru to unbelievable levels. He was the greates duelist in the Jedi Order at the time of ROTS. He had Palpatine scared fort a second. He had Dooku running in their AOTC duel. I think this speaks enough for him.

Obi Wan Kenobi was a MASTER saber duelist. He had perfected Soresu to the point where he could walk through battalions of droids and come out UNSCATHED. He was able to block 20 strikes per second (as seen in the duel with Greivous). He was able to beat pre suit Vader. He had mastery of Ataru and Soresu, as well as advanced training in Shii Cho, Niman, and some hand to hand combat. As a padawan, he held his own against Maul. As a Master, he was able to match Dooku in sabers, beat Ventress, hold off against a resurrected Maul and his brother, kill Greivous, and beat pre suit Vader.

And Luke is just better than them.

Caedus I find hard pressed to find a decent feat besides fighting Grand Master Luke. I honestly think that ROTS Anakin, Kenobi, Sidious, Maul, Mace, and Yoda would hold their own vs. Grand Master Luke before being defeated. Maul, Kenobi and Mace would be defeated in about a minute (Kenobi would last 2 minutes since he's mastered Trollesu), and Anakin and Yoda would last 3 minutes before being wrecked.

Yes Caedus had the chance to kill a "boosted" Jaina Solo, but he was on the defensive, Jaina was using the shameful Force Rage to fuel her offense, and the sad thing is that she barely beat Caedus.

Revan is featless in saber combat. Beating a "boosted" Malak who isn't that powerful to begin with isn't a feat in my book. Revan's feats are in his force abilities, especially in the Tutaminis area.

Hero of Tython beat a weakened Vitiate who has quack ability in sabers.

wrong. he never "nearly defeated" sidious. as a matter of fact, sidious was toying with the brothers. and hell no, kenobi would probably not survive that long against Luke, nor would maul, and i might agree with the mace thing. i don't know where you get that malak isnt that powerful, especially when he was being amped by 20 jedi masters. all of the people on my list are better saber duelists than kenobi, except MAYBE DoE bane. and yes, i forgot exar kun, although all of the people on my list are ahead of him in that dept. except again, MAYBE bane.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
wrong. he never "nearly defeated sidious". as a matter of fact, sidious was toying with the brothers. and hell no, kenobi would probably not survive that long against Luke, nor would maul, and i might agree with the mace thing. i don't know where you get that malak isnt that powerful, especially when he was being amped by 20 jedi masters. all of the people on my list are better saber duelists than kenobi, except MAYBE DoE bane. and yes, i forgot exar kun, although all of the people on my list are ahead of him in that dept. except again, MAYBE bane.


First off, Maul nearly overpowered Sidious in a blade lock, and he was using Force Rage. It fueled him. If you saw the episode, you practically saw in Maul's face that he was on the verge of explosion. And he was able to force Sidious on the defensive. The likely fastest duelist of the era was being forced back by Maul. Maul is an excellent duelist. You don't just master Jar'Kai, Niman and Juyo, move 5 times faster than a normal human, and beat 2 high level Ataru specialists and get downplayed.

Malak needed to be amped by 20 masters to get any noticable saber ability to match Revan, who is previously featless in saber combat, and Malak STILL loses.

Kenobi's Soresu is definetely equal to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. The only reason Dooku beat Kenobi in ROTS was because of Dooku's expertise in the Force. Plus, Kenobi defeated a stronger and faster Djem So duelist in the form of pre-suit Darth Vader, I think Kenobi will defeat Bane. Anakin was getting mad that he couldn't bust through Kenobi's defenses. Do you really think if the Chosen One, the greatest Djem So duelist ever to live before Luke can't do it, that someone less than half of his potential will defeat Kenobi? Please.

Originally posted by XRKun


Speaking of Maul, Maul was likely the highest trained Sith of all time. He is a product of 20 years of intense training. He basically defeated both Kenobi and Jinn in TPM. In his revival, he became more powerful, able to keep up with a more experienced, more powerful Kenobi with the help of his brother. In his final duel, he nearly defeated Sidious.

He didn't come close to defeating Sidious. That's confirmed by the official site and by Dave Filoni.

He did however temporarily hold his own in a rage enhanced state.

And TCW Maul doesn't need Opress to "keep up" with Kenobi. He's fully capable of doing that by himself, and is more powerful than Kenobi in the Force.


Originally posted by XRKun
This is Sidious. The man who moves so fast that Anakin couldn't follow him in the Mace Windu vs. Palpatine battle. The fact that Maul can move just as fast is extremely impressive. The fact that Maul didn't just die in seconds (cough Fisto, Kolar, Tinn cough) is amazing.

That's true.

Originally posted by XRKun
This means Maul is already above nearly all the masters in the Jedi Order, being basically only below Mace Windu and Yoda. Maul's kills include Anoon Bondara, Pre Vizsla, Qui Gon Jinn, all of the Black Sun, and one more person I can't remember. Maul is a master of Juyo, and has expert skill in Niman and Jar'Kai.



TCW Maul is definitely below Yoda, Mace and Anakin. Maul and Kenobi seem on par although I can't help but feel Kenobi seems better when he fights Maul for the sake of the plot.

Any other Jedi he should defeat without any major problem.

Originally posted by XRKun


Kenobi's Soresu is definetely equal to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. The only reason Dooku beat Kenobi in ROTS was because of Dooku's expertise in the Force.


Yes but Kenobi didn't even see the Force Push and Choke coming, hence made no effort to defend against it. Despite the fact that it was Dooku who was outnumbered.

So I think Dooku simply outfought him. Which is confirmed in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.



Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
as a matter of fact, sidious was toying with the brothers.

There were certainly times when he was toying, like in his one on one with Opress. But having looked through everything Dave Filoni has said about the fight and reading official sources on the subject, I've not seen it confirmed anywhere that he was holding back the whole fight.

If anything Filoni suggests the contrary when he states Opress put up a better fight than Fisto/Tiin/Kolar.

So I think the ass kicking Sidious gave them was a pretty legitimate ass kicking.

Originally posted by Master Han
1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Sidious
4. Hero of Tython/Caedus
5. Bane (RoT is his prime, IIRC)
6. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
7. Kas'im/Revan/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord
8. Obi Wan
9. Saba Sebatyne/Malgus/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo
10. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Maul

Update. Tiers rather than ranks, 'cause...yeah.

1. Luke/Yoda/Sidious
2. Caedus/Bane
3. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
4. Kas'im/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord/Obi Wan
5. Revan/Malgus
6. Seba Sebatyne/Corran Horn/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo/Maul/Satele Shan
7. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Ventress/Oppress/Shaak Ti/General Grievous
8. Everyone else that I didn't miss. And I left the HoT out for being relatively unknown.

^ Decent ranking.

But I personally think Maul should be up with Kenobi. Kenobi might have an edge over him, but not a whole tier.

Unless your referring to TPM Maul.

Also not sure you should put Bane higher than Mace/Anakin/Dooku, unless it's Orbalisk Bane.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't come close to defeating Sidious. That's confirmed by the official site and by Dave Filoni.

Oh, had no idea about that.

He did however temporarily hold his own in a rage enhanced state.

And TCW Maul doesn't need Opress to "keep up" with Kenobi. He's fully capable of doing that by himself, and is more powerful than Kenobi in the Force.

Exactly.




That's true.



TCW Maul is definitely below Yoda, Mace and Anakin. Maul and Kenobi seem on par although I can't help but feel Kenobi seems better when he fights Maul for the sake of the plot.

Any other Jedi he should defeat without any major problem.


IMO TCW Maul and ROTS Anakin are similar. Both are very good duelists, but you're right, ROTS Anakin is better. I was referring to TCW Anakin, who I believe TCW Maul is equal to.

Yes but Kenobi didn't even see the Force Push and Choke coming, hence made no effort to defend against it. Despite the fact that it was Dooku who was outnumbered.

So I think Dooku simply outfought him. Which is confirmed in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

Ok. Fair enough.



There were certainly times when he was toying, like in his one on one with Opress. But having looked through everything Dave Filoni has said about the fight and reading official sources on the subject, I've not seen it confirmed anywhere that he was holding back the whole fight.

If anything Filoni suggests the contrary when he states Opress put up a better fight than Fisto/Tiin/Kolar.

So I think the ass kicking Sidious gave them was a pretty legitimate ass kicking.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But I personally think Maul should be up with Kenobi. Kenobi might have an edge over him, but not a whole tier.

Unless your referring to TPM Maul.


I was referencing TPM Maul, since I really don't know much about his TCW incarnation.



Well, his prodigious learning rate in PoD; his dancing in the rain in DoE; his being hailed as the sith'ari, etc.

Originally posted by Master Han
Update. Tiers rather than ranks, 'cause...yeah.

1. Luke/Yoda/Sidious
2. Caedus/Bane
3. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
4. Kas'im/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord/Obi Wan
5. Revan/Malgus
6. Seba Sebatyne/Corran Horn/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo/Maul/Satele Shan
7. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Ventress/Oppress/Shaak Ti/General Grievous
8. Everyone else that I didn't miss. And I left the HoT out for being relatively unknown.

Ok what has Caedus done that makes him above Windu, Dooku, ROTS Anakin and even Maul?

Why is Maul so low? He is the probably the highest trained Sith of all time.

Kasim isn't equal to Kenobi. Kenobi defeated a stronger, faster Djem So duelist in the form of pre-suit Vader. Bane is DEFINETLY not as fast as pre-suit Vader. He probably comes close, but he isn't.

Bane shouldn't be this high. Dooku is faster, Windu is faster, Anakin is faster, arguably Maul is faster. Unless you think Bane can defeat Sidious is saber combat (cough Mace defeated Sids cough) or match him in speed (TCW Maul was able to match Sidious in speed in their duel on Mandalore).

My list?

Tier 1
Luke

Tier 2
Sidious
Yoda
Windu
Dooku

Tier 3
ROTS Anakin Skywalker

Tier 4
Darth Maul
Kyle Katarn
Exar Kun
Kyp Durron
Obi Wan Kenobi/Darth Caedus/Darth Bane

Tier 5
Tulak Hord
Darth Malgus
Satele Shan

Tier 6
Jinn/Koon/Kolar/Tinn/Fisto

Originally posted by XRKun
Why is Maul so low?

He isn't. This list only features the best in all history...and I should have added that I was referring to TPM Maul.



I'm extrapolating from his mastering every lightsaber form, being described as possibly the greatest duelist to ever live (to his time), and having not inconsiderable strength in the Force.



Bane's dancing in the rain feat is particularly impressive, and this occurs past his prime. He also demonstrates a massive learning rate, that even if decreased by two orders of magnitude past PoD, suggests great improvement by RoT.



Windu was being overwhelmed until he sunk into vaapad.



Luke - Sidious < Yoda - Dooku, IMO.



I'm assuming each tier isn't ordered (Obi Wan > Maul), and you're wayyyy underrating Caedus and Bane here.

TCW Maul>ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi. Maul got considerably stronger and faster.

Fighting GM Luke isn't the greatest feat in the world, but its a pretty good feat. I believe plenty of duelists can challenge Luke. In fact, i'll list them.

In addition to Caedus,

ROTS Anakin
Windu
Yoda
Sidious
Kenobi (only because of Trollesu)
Maul (matching Sidious in speed is a serious feat, considering Sidious moves faster than Anakin can follow, and that Anakin can react to ships moving at sub light speed)
Kyp Durron
Kyle Katarn
Exar Kun (he mastered Niman in the same fashion that Windu mastered Vaapad, no one has ever done it like he did)

And Tulak Hord.

Originally posted by XRKun
TCW Maul>ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi. Maul got considerably stronger and faster.

He doesn't seem > Kenobi in Sabers. In fact if anyone seems like they have the edge it's Kenobi. Though Maul seems more powerful.


Originally posted by XRKun
Maul (matching Sidious in speed is a serious feat, considering Sidious moves faster than Anakin can follow, and that Anakin can react to ships moving at sub light speed)


Maul only temporarily matched Sidious speed in a one-off Rage Enhanced state. It's not like it's every fight someone's going to kill his brother.

Just like Kenobi matching both Maul and Opress together was a one-off.

Also Sidious doesn't move faster than ships, so I don't buy the above logic. Skywalker doesn't need to "see" what he's reacting to. "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them"(Ben Kenobi to Luke Skywalker ANH).

There was the one fight where Kenobi was fighting Maul *and* Opress, and the end result was Opress losing an arm.

Originally posted by Master Han
Update. Tiers rather than ranks, 'cause...yeah.

1. Luke/Yoda/Sidious
2. Caedus/Bane
3. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
4. Kas'im/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord/Obi Wan
5. Revan/Malgus
6. Seba Sebatyne/Corran Horn/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo/Maul/Satele Shan
7. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Ventress/Oppress/Shaak Ti/General Grievous
8. Everyone else that I didn't miss. And I left the HoT out for being relatively unknown.
I like this list.

Out of curiosity, where would you rank Plagueis, coz 8 seems to be to low for him IMHO.

Originally posted by Stigma
I like this list.

Out of curiosity, where would you rank Plagueis, coz 8 seems to be to low for him IMHO.

Honestly, how much do we know about Plagueis's dueling acumen? We know that he's a "master duelist", and that he defeated that one apprentice his master had trained in secret...am I missing something?

the reason i put plagueis around dooku level is because he kinda trained sidious to where he was in TPM, and after that i don't think sidious ever used a lightsaber until ROTS, so...

Personally I put Plagueis on Sidious' level in terms of sabers.

Really. He's fast as ****, one of the strongest characters in the entire mythos, has insane durability and from his fight with Venamis he's obviously an extremely skilled duelist despite his neglect for the art. And he's one of the most powerful Sith ever.

hmm, that's true. would you say he's vitiate level overall?

Yes.

I did a post on how Kenobi would probably lose against Kas'im.

I wouldn't say Obi-Wans Soresu surpasses Kas'im's mastery of each form. Obi-Wan seems naturally gifted with Soresu, but Kas'im not only mastered the forms, but then spent decades perfecting each of them. He should know the forms inside and out with a similar degree of knowledge Kenobi has of his own form.

The Mace quote is:

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

Its certainly highly complmentary, but hardly enough to put him above Kas'im imo. And lets not forget that Mace seems to overestimate pretty much everyone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't say Obi-Wans Soresu surpasses Kas'im's mastery of each form. Obi-Wan seems naturally gifted with Soresu, but Kas'im not only mastered the forms, but then spent decades perfecting each of them. He should know the forms inside and out with a similar degree of knowledge Kenobi has of his own form.


Yeah, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, there's nothing to suggest that Kas'im's mastery of any individual form matche's Kenobi's unique affinity with soresu. Technically understanding every move doesn't necessarily edge him over. Hence why plenty of high level Temple battlemasters ultimately lost to the likes of Maul, Anakin, etc.



Firstly, Kenobi is being modest, even to himself, given that TCW demonstrates that he's beastly with jar'kai, and TPM tells us he knows ataru. Secondly, it's not just Windu's praise; it's Kenobi's demonstrated performances against, most particularly, Grievous and Anakin, and Dooku's own assessment of his abilities. His soresu allowed him to walk through a "hornet's nest" of blaster bolts from entire battalions and emerge unscathed.

It's difficult to conclude that Obi Wan would win. But Kas'im's going to have a hard time penetrating his soresu through sheer bladework. Dooku couldn't. Anakin couldn't.

BTW:



^although I would question whether Grievous strikes as fast in the movies.

Sorry for the triple post. But ironically enough, the Obi Wan vs. Kas'im thread really convinced me that I/we've underestimated Kenobi.

I might give him the win over Kas'im.

I think its clear that Grievous is not actually that fast.

The RotS novel overhypes everyones capabilities. I see it as more or less non-canon now.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, there's nothing to suggest that Kas'im's mastery of any individual form matche's Kenobi's unique affinity with soresu. Technically understanding every move doesn't necessarily edge him over. Hence why plenty of high level Temple battlemasters ultimately lost to the likes of Maul, Anakin, etc.

Er, you mean evidence to the contrary other than the thing I just said right? That he'd mastered all the forms in years, "then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever."

Kenobi is good, but would you call his Soresu skills perfect? Beyond perfect? The sheer level of polish Kas'im put into his skills are beyond what Kenobi put into even Soresu.

And temple battlemasters lost to those guys because they were faster and more powerful. Kenobi is not faster and more powerful than Kas'im, so he isn't going to be able to power through Kas'im's skill through other advantages.

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, Kenobi is being modest, even to himself, given that TCW demonstrates that he's beastly with jar'kai, and TPM tells us he knows ataru. Secondly, it's not just Windu's praise; it's Kenobi's demonstrated performances against, most particularly, Grievous and Anakin, and Dooku's own assessment of his abilities. His soresu allowed him to walk through a "hornet's nest" of blaster bolts from entire battalions and emerge unscathed.

It's difficult to conclude that Obi Wan would win. But Kas'im's going to have a hard time penetrating his soresu through sheer bladework. Dooku couldn't. Anakin couldn't.

I'm not saying he's not impressive, just that I don't think he's as impressive as you're making him out to be, where he's some Soresu God and he knows the form beyond what Kas'im possibly could despite him spending decades perfecting his technique.

Anakin did actually. Its just that Anakin wasn't able to capitalize on it. And Dooku knocked him down twice in their duel. If you watch it, the amount of time Kenobi's actually fighting Dooku is... about twelve seconds. Literally, not counting when they're talking. Impressive defenses there Obi!

so now you think the books overhype the golden age of the jedi/sith? and that the TOR jedi and sith aren't overhyped?

Yes, though only really RoTS, which very much does overhype its characters.

Why would the TOR-era be overhyped?

let me ask you: do you think average jedi from TOR era > average jedi from PT era?

I dunno. In what capacity?

lightsaber prowess, force ability

I think its certainly possible.

but i believe it's canonically stated that the PT era > all other eras, due to the fact that having 1000 years of peace helped the jedi gain a greater oneness with the ligtside of the force, almost perfecting their martial training, etc.

I don't believe thats true.

In fact the Force had been thrown out of balance favoring the darkside so its stupid to think the PT-era would have a stronger connection than ever before. Mace clearly says that their ability to use the Force had diminished. Its also true that their martial prowess had stagnated, since they no longer had to face lightsaber wielding opponents. Makashi was an extreme rarity because of this and as the quote on the last page showed the majority of the Order favored Soresu because of its focus against blaster wielding opponents. So its illogical to think the era would be the best at lightsaber combat. The majority never faced a lightsaber in their lives.

Personally I think that the idea of the PT Jedi being the best is horseshit, since the very point of the Prequels is that the Jedi sucked ass.

nah man, their vision had only been clouded when palpatine came into power, so they still had that 1000 years to grow more powerful.

Too bad they didn't.

um, yeah they did. you've got:

yoda
mace
dooku (before he went sithee)
The Chosen One, Anakin
agen kolar/saesee tiin/kit fisto/obi wan/Plo Koon (all swordmasters)

the jedi council of the PT in general > TOR council

That doesn't prove anything. I thought you had an actual source that they grew in power, not mere supposition. Its canon that the Jedi's power was diminished.

GL states that the PT era = Golden age of the jedi order, which is backed up by

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
um, yeah they did. you've got:

yoda
mace
dooku (before he went sithee)
The Chosen One, Anakin
agen kolar/saesee tiin/kit fisto/obi wan/Plo Koon (all swordmasters)

the jedi council of the PT in general > TOR council

oh btw, does this forum have "battle cages" where only 2 people can argue each other for one side or the other?

The golden age of the jedi doesn't preclude the fact that many from the TOR era are better than the PT era.

the top dogs of the PT era are better than the top dogs from TOR era:

palpatine>vitiate
Yoda>HoT

of course HoT > average PT master, but you have to compare evenly, top dog to top dog, scrub to scrub

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
oh btw, does this forum have "battle cages" where only 2 people can argue each other for one side or the other?
Do you mean like "Satele ( Name ) vs Revan ( Name )" ?

yes

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
let me ask you: do you think average jedi from TOR era > average jedi from PT era?

IMO, the average Jedi with battle experience > the average Jedi without. By the end of the CW, most of the Jedi had been in a good amount of fighting and aren't disadvantaged there (though mostly against blaster-using foes, but not entirely, there was a big group of sword-using cloned assassins that the CIS churned out in large number in a multi-month siege that many many Jedi were involved in), plus the CW era had very good training and the largest recruitment pool, so they aren't to be underestimated.

Originally posted by Q99
IMO, the average Jedi with battle experience > the average Jedi without.

Indeed, which applies more for the TOR-era than the PT-era, since they have experience fighting actual lightsaber-wielding opponents, both in the Great War, the Cold War and the war in TOR. Whereas the PT-era does not, since as you say most of their fighting was against retarded droids. And since we're talking about lightsaber prowess.....

Furthermore, the TOR-era Order is a lot bigger than the PT-era.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Furthermore, the TOR-era Order is a lot bigger than the PT-era.

Is it? In the PT they've had a long time to accumulate size and a lot less casualties before the CW. My impression was the PT Jedi was the largest of the orders.

The PT is 10,000 Jedi strong right? The Jedi of TOR were in the millions. Thats hundreds of times larger surely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The PT is 10,000 Jedi strong right? The Jedi of TOR were in the millions. Thats hundreds of times larger surely.

100,000, iirc. Even Legacy era might hit 10k.

And millions? It actually said that many somewhere?

Well there are millions of Sith, and we're not just talking 1 or 2 million either. There are millions of acolytes fighting to become Sith at any one time, millions vying for the Dark Council and millions of extremely strong Sith were considered as Scourges replacement.

And the Jedi are winning in TOR. As in, bigtime winning. I don't think that would be possible if the Sith vastly outnumbered the Jedi, so the order has to at least be in the millions imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well there are millions of Sith, and we're not just talking 1 or 2 million either.

But only a few become dark lords of the sith. It's like Kaan's Brotherhood, and Bane's theory that the dark side grows weak as it spreads across many members. The Light Side appears to harbor no such weakness.

"millions vying for the Dark Council and millions of extremely strong Sith were considered as Scourges replacement."

Yeah no.

They were extremely strong?

Oooh, they're clearly superior to the PT era masters, then.

***** did I say that?

You claimed that only a few become Dark Lords so I pointed out that 'a few' equal millions.

Also Banes clearly full of shit since the darkside being spread over so many didn't stop beings as powerful as himself or Zannah from being born.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well there are millions of Sith, and we're not just talking 1 or 2 million either. There are millions of acolytes fighting to become Sith at any one time, millions vying for the Dark Council and millions of extremely strong Sith were considered as Scourges replacement.

And the Jedi are winning in TOR. As in, bigtime winning. I don't think that would be possible if the Sith vastly outnumbered the Jedi, so the order has to at least be in the millions imo.

Or it's the Republic and not the Jedi that are getting the victory over the Sith.

Hint: It isn't.

Originally posted by Master Han
But only a few become dark lords of the sith. It's like Kaan's Brotherhood,

Yea, millions wanting to become Sith is far different than millions with solid force potential and training.

Kaan's brotherhood was slapping a lightsaber in the hands with anyone with a twinkle of force potential, and most were fodder even to average Jedi/Sith.



Originally posted by Nephthys
"millions vying for the Dark Council and millions of extremely strong Sith were considered as Scourges replacement."

Yeah no.

That seems extremely wrong to me. Considering even in TOR battles, we tend to see just a few force users in play supported by more conventional troops, not particularly more than we see Jedi in CW battles.

And thousands to 10k or so seems the norm for every other era (btw, that 100,000? I'm pretty sure that includes the Jedi Service Corps, i.e. the washouts who couldn't become knights/padawans but still helped out, and outnumbered the full Jedi by a lot).

1. Exar Kun
2. DoE Bane
3. Ulic Qel-Droma
4. Nomi Sunrider
5. Kas'im
6. EU Yoda
7. Vaapad maxed out Mace Windu
8. EU Sidious
9. Zonakin
10. Prime Luke

BM Raskta would probably go between DoE Bane and Ulic if I included her. BM Sarro Jah would probably be a few spaces lower. If I can't keep Zonakin or VMO Mace Windu, I'd imagine the Hero of Tython and the Sith equivalent would be up there, as would Darth Caedus.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
1. Exar Kun
2. DoE Bane
3. Ulic Qel-Droma
4. Nomi Sunrider
5. Kas'im
6. EU Yoda
7. Vaapad maxed out Mace Windu
8. EU Sidious
9. Zonakin
10. Prime Luke
My eyes hurt.

http://stuffpoint.com/spongebob-square-pants/image/175256-spongebob-square-pants-big-eyes.jpg

Lists should never include Yoda or Luke, we all know how powerful they are.

This is quite too hard to do.

Tulak Hord.

In no specific order:

Luke
Sidious
Yoda
Caedus
Dooku
Revan
Mace
Hero of Tython
Anakin
Malak or Maul, whoever is preferred.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tulak Hord.

Good shout. Too much of an unknown but I wouldn't be surprised if he really was far superior to anybody else that we've come across.

He's not as much of an unknown anymore considering he solo'd an army of a thousand Jedi on Yn and consumed their energies, ripped capital ships out of the sky and was a master sorcerer and swordsman.

Originally posted by Nephthys
ripped capital ships out of the sky

That was finally confirmed?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's not as much of an unknown anymore considering he solo'd an army of a thousand Jedi on Yn and consumed their energies, ripped capital ships out of the sky and was a master sorcerer and swordsman.

Yeah but as a lightsaber duelist specifically, he is an unknown. I like the idea of him being great and he probably was, he's clearly extremely powerful and in KotOR we're told that a large part of his prowess was down to his incredible technique which was contained in a holocron so I'm guessing he would have been incredibly skilled as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That was finally confirmed? According to Khem Val.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Yeah but as a lightsaber duelist specifically, he is an unknown. I like the idea of him being great and he probably was, he's clearly extremely powerful and in KotOR we're told that a large part of his prowess was down to his incredible technique which was contained in a holocron so I'm guessing he would have been incredibly skilled as well.

The Swtor encyclopedia backs up Kreia's fellatio of his technique by saying Hord possessed 'legendary lightsaber skills.'

Darth Thanaton also possessed a tablet of his teachings on lightsaber forms.

Originally posted by Galan007
According to Khem Val.

I know Val alleges this, but was it ever confirmed by a more reliable source?

Not that I am aware of... And I've scoured the Saucebooks.

...Found more interesting excerpts pertaining to Palpatine buried deep within a few Insider Mags, btw.

Originally posted by sirspoilsalot
Not that I am aware of... And I've scoured the Saucebooks.

...Found more interesting excerpts pertaining to Palpatine buried deep within a few Insider Mags, btw.

Your efforts are futile good sir.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not that I am aware of... And I've scoured the Saucebooks.

...Found more interesting excerpts pertaining to Palpatine buried deep within a few Insider Mags, btw.

Moar than the one you PM'd to me?

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Your efforts are futile good sir. Not a whole lot of effort is required to discern that Palpatine is the most powaful Sith Lord in history.

Also, lol @ the name change. The butthurt is laughably strong in you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Moar than the one you PM'd to me? Si.

Originally posted by Galan007
Si.

You may begin scanning them and sending them to me at your earliest convenience.

Which would be now.

http://i.imgur.com/M61PuIq.jpg

You will have them soon enough.

You're so handsome.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You may begin scanning them and sending them to me at your earliest convenience.

Which would be now.


And you can go ahead and forward them to me.

Thanks.

Tell you what: I'm currently putting together a compendium of every excerpt in every medium that pertains to Palpatine being the moast powaful Sith evah(I'm bored, obviously.) When finished, I'll send it to you both. You'll probably be familiar with most of said statements, but it'll be a great refersher regardless.

#HailPalpatine

Your efforts shall be rewarded sexually.

http://i.imgur.com/vJmcy.gif

Originally posted by Galan007
Tell you what: I'm currently putting together a compendium of every excerpt in every medium that pertains to Palpatine being the moast powaful Sith evah(I'm bored, obviously.) When finished, I'll send it to you both. You'll probably be familiar with most of said statements, but it'll be a great refersher regardless.

#HailPalpatine

Post it in forums?

Nebaris is so scared right now.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Post it in forums? I will send it to them, and they can do with it what they please.

Should be done by tomorrow, btw. I'm cross-referencing all the pertinent material now, just to make sure I have accurately cited all of the correct sauces.

Sidious 66/Tempest, could one of you forward it to me please?

I'll probably cross-reference your work with mine and that of Silver2467 and then usher in the next generation of Palpawank.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Sidious 66/Tempest, could one of you forward it to me please? If they agree to send it to you, I won't send it to them. evillaugh

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll probably cross-reference your work with mine and that of Silver2467 and then usher in the next generation of Palpawank. Last year maybe(?) I remember getting into a rather heated debate with someone about Palpatine being the strongest Sith evah(I was pro-Palpatine, he was anti-Palpatine.) At the time, I only had 2 sauces/statements to support my stance, and no one else was capable of posting any additional sauces either.

I wish I could have unloaded these dozen or so statements into the back of his throat.

The last cluster of infidels will soon be crushed beneath His Imperial Majesty's ruthless but stylish boot. Your efforts shall be noted and the gag reflexes of the enemy shall indeed be tested.

Originally posted by Galan007
http://i.imgur.com/M61PuIq.jpg Expect a PM tomorrow before days end.

Originally posted by sirneverspoilsnothingandilovehim!
If they agree to send it to you, I won't send it to them. evillaugh

Last year maybe(?) I remember getting into a rather heated debate with someone about Palpatine being the strongest Sith evah(I was pro-Palpatine, he was anti-Palpatine.) At the time, I only had 2 sauces/statements to support my stance, and no one else was capable of posting any additional sauces either.

I wish I could have unloaded these dozen or so statements into the back of his throat.

If I agree to remove your name from my list, will you send it to me? (to be fair I only added it in the first place because you ruined part of Forever Evil for me and weren't very apolagetic about it...).

Your fear arouses me.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
If I agree to remove your name from my list, will you send it to me? (to be fair I only added it in the first place because you ruined part of Forever Evil for me and weren't very apolagetic about it...). I will allow you to see this information in exchange for an e-BJ at any time of my choosing.

Decide. sly

Demand a real one and photo documentation.

That will cum next. Foreplay is required at this juncture.

Originally posted by Galan007
I will allow you to see this information in exchange for an e-BJ at any time of my choosing.

Decide. sly

If Intrepid agrees to the e-BJ on my behalf, will that suffice?

Both of you would have to agree in that case. You can start and he can finish, for example.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
If Intrepid agrees to the e-BJ on my behalf, will that suffice?
Why am I on your love to hate list, bro.

Originally posted by Galan007
Both of you would have to agree in that case. You can start and he can finish, for example.

Well Intrepid has informed me that he's game, so deal! I think PTforthewin might want to get in on the action as well.

Confirmed dual e-suckery.

On to my next conquest...

Originally posted by Galan007
Tell you what: I'm currently putting together a compendium of every excerpt in every medium that pertains to Palpatine being the moast powaful Sith evah(I'm bored, obviously.) When finished, I'll send it to you both. You'll probably be familiar with most of said statements, but it'll be a great refersher regardless.

#HailPalpatine


Sounds good, Galan.

Send one to me if possible. Thanks.