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Would these 3 dominant force users be enough to take down the son? takes place in the senate rotunda

I'd certainly say so.

personally, i think the son would win in an extremely close fight

Team.

I would say so, Luke teleports hiss lightsaber into the sons skull and calls it a day.

Isn't the son supposed to be even stronger than anakin from the mortis comic, whom easily overwhelmed yoda/palpatine?

Luke solos...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Isn't the son supposed to be even stronger than anakin from the mortis comic, whom easily overwhelmed yoda/palpatine?

No.

Luke did well against Abeloth who I think(?) is more powerful than the Son so the team should beat him fairly easily.

To be completely fair, abeloth was weakened (im prty sure) when all her avatars around the galaxy were destroyed one by one.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Isn't the son supposed to be even stronger than anakin from the mortis comic, whom easily overwhelmed yoda/palpatine?
The Son is supposed to be weaker than Anakin if the latter had reached his potential.

"He had the potential to be the most powerful Force-user ever..."
This means he'd be stronger than the Father, who is stronger than Abeloth.
http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/anakinskywalker/

So Luke is stronger than the father, since he fulfilled anakin's potential?

Anakin would've been stronger than Luke if the chosen one did reach his potential.

GL states that luke fulfills anakin's potential...

Maybe that part changed? Maybe the bloodline was diluted?
The site does state "most powerful Force-user ever."

Also GL states that anakin would have become 200% of palpatine. This leads me to believe the son can defeat him.

Maybe that was after Mustafar had he sustained none of his injuries, but he would continue to grow stronger?

Nah, he meant full potential Anakin. The Son's lightning has caused mountains to cave in ( correct me if i'm wrong), has literally imbued the darkside into people, defeated Anakin, Obi Wan, and Ahsoka in like literally 4 seconds, and was more powerful than the father (admittedly the father was very old, hence why he needed anakin, Prime Father > Son)

I think prime Luke or de sidious could solo the son since sidious is the epitome of evil and Luke is the most powerful force weilder ever. Vitiate is just a waste of space

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I think prime Luke or de sidious could solo the son
No. No they couldn't.

So Vitiate x100000000000000000000 would be stomped by the "Universal" beings of Mortis but this team could defeat one of them? I don't see the logic in that.

Do we consider the Son as a semi-omnipotent being or just a couple times more powerful than top tier Jedi/Sith?

Son is supposed to be the entity embodying and representing the Dark Side, and rivaled by no other in terms of Dark Side power, though Abeloth is an exception. In short, I don't see these three winning, unless this is Luke while he was one with the Force

Luke can probably anchor this team enough to take Son out. He'll be taking most of the punishment, much like he does when fighting Aboleth...but if Krayt, Ben, and Vestara are enough to help Luke take out Aboleth, then Luke with the far superior help he has here should be able to take Son out.

Son is toast, badly outgunned.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Son is supposed to be the entity embodying and representing the Dark Side, and rivaled by no other in terms of Dark Side power, though Abeloth is an exception. In short, I don't see these three winning, unless this is Luke while he was one with the Force
Don't be ridiculous.

Check my arguments and revelations in this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=607886&pagenumber=4

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't be ridiculous.

Check my arguments and revelations in this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=607886&pagenumber=4

Trust me when I say that I vote for Vitiate whenever I can and it is logical, and in this case it is, though it is stated multiple times by multiple sources that the Ones can only be truly killed by the Blade of Mortis, and assuming they can beat him down severely enough to make him have to recover, they could get the dagger and kill him when he returns. That's the only way I see them winning, and also the only thing I see getting in their way.

Regardless of whether or not you view the Ones as untouchable or not, none of these guys comes remotely close to soloing the Son.

Honestly I can't see an immortal force god being defeated by any mortals

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Regardless of whether or not you view the Ones as untouchable or not, none of these guys comes remotely close to soloing the Son.

I see Luke as the only one who could contend by himself with the son or the daughter

In Oneness, Maybe. Depends on how much of his dad's maximum he actually has that way. It's hard to define.

It is like taking a trained navy SEAL, and putting him in the boxing ring against 5 toddlers. You could make it 100 toddlers and the SEAL would still utterly slaughter them.

Son rofl stomps this team before they realize time has even passed

Originally posted by Kurk
Honestly I can't see an immortal force god being defeated by any mortals

Abeloth is an immortal force god, and see where that got her with just Luke and Krayt.

No *one* mortal can kill one, but like in myth, great heroes can fight gods.

Yes. Essentially, the team here is FAR FAR Superior to the one that confronted Abeloth.

And that's why the team wins.

Speaking of which, Abeloth>Son, so don't use that as an excuse.

Son shorts out their lightsabers and then kills them.

Son moves faster than they can perceive and makes them explode with a thought.

You'll have to explain how Son does that when Abeloth could not vs. inferior foes.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
You'll have to explain how Son does that when Abeloth could not vs. inferior foes.

Abeloth during that fight was not at her prime, she was split into many forms and most of her other forms in which she divided her power had been killed.

The son is not split, he is one singular being with all his power focused.

Abeloth unlike the Son is also not immortal, she can be killed, the son as long as the father is alive cannot be killed.

@Angel: Because the Son is a vastly superior combatant with nearly millions of years of more combat experience.

Abeloth might have a raw power advantage over him, but she doesn't compare in any other areas at all. I might not even give her the power edge either, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Angel: Because the Son is a vastly superior combatant with nearly millions of years of more combat experience.

Abeloth might have a raw power advantage over him, but she doesn't compare in any other areas at all. I might not even give her the power edge either, tbh.

Is there a reason for this? The Son may have been an innately more powerful being, but Abeloth gained her powers from the nexuses that supplied the power to both the Son and Daughter, which should more than compensate. Feat-wise, Abeloth can more than compete, and I'm willing to bet that if the Son and Daughter combined their strength with that of the Killiks to defeat Abeloth, then she's not incapable of competing with just the Son.

The Son's only combat experience in those years was fighting his sister. And frankly, combat experience is utterly irrelevant to beings of this class. Abeloth knows how to control her powers, and so does the Son. That's all that matters.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is there a reason for this? The Son may have been an innately more powerful being, but Abeloth gained her powers from the nexuses that supplied the power to both the Son and Daughter, which should more than compensate.
Not really. The Son and Daughter were apparently born as Celestials in the first place, meaning they weren't mortals when they went in the nexus'. Likewise, they had the power to not be corrupted by the energies (unlike Abeloth and other Sith who have went in it), and were rather transformed into embodiments of the Force. Abeloth isn't really a side of the Force - she's the opposite of it. She's like a cancer of the Force.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Feat-wise, Abeloth can more than compete, and I'm willing to bet that if the Son and Daughter combined their strength with that of the Killiks to defeat Abeloth, then she's not incapable of competing with just the Son.
I doubt the credibility of the Killik's in regard to that. It would be purely legend and myth with no way for finding out. In the very core of canon, only the Chosen One can subdue both the Son and Daughter. Suggesting Abeloth can too goes against a key element of the entire concept.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Son's only combat experience in those years was fighting his sister.
Fighting the most powerful light-side user for millions of years, indeed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And frankly, combat experience is utterly irrelevant to beings of this class. Abeloth knows how to control her powers, and so does the Son. That's all that matters.
Except she doesn't. That's the core being of her nature. She has no skill. She's the embodiment of chaos - of unpredictability. She doesn't know how to control anything because control is not of her nature. She could easily have killed Luke in a second, but she didn't. Why? I don't know, no one knows, that's the entire concept of her character. She's a god terrible fighter with immense raw power. I honestly consider her to be among the worst combatants in all of the mythos given the power she wields. The Son and the Daughter are the embodiment of their respective sides of the Force - taking each to the highest pinnacle of mastery imaginable - and even then some more. They have control over their abilities, and are pretty damn straightforward.

BTW, I don't think we should take the Abeloth vs Son/Daughter thing literally in terms of a combat level. To fight chaos, one must logically introduce balance. The Son and Daughter combined bring that balance necessary. While I bet one or the other can do it alone in terms of power, it's sort of the metaphor that you need them both. If only one does it, that's destroying the balance and thus creating chaos.

Let's be honest also: with beings as powerful as the Ones, it's a lot easier to destroy a city then to raise one up again.

A lot of the things involving the One's should be taking symbolically, imo. They are gods, after all.

It's also worth noting that when the Son and Daughter teamed up to stop Abeloth, it was when she was assimilating planets and shit. She didn't reach that point in FOTJ, which leads me to believe that FOTJ wasn't her peak.

Also, evidently Abeloth wanted to **** Luke, and that's apparently why he survived so many fights with her.

Also, Abeloth has a certain level of control. She basically masterminded the fight at the temple.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really. The Son and Daughter were apparently born as Celestials in the first place, meaning they weren't mortals when they went in the nexus'. Likewise, they had the power to not be corrupted by the energies (unlike Abeloth and other Sith who have went in it), and were rather transformed into embodiments of the Force. Abeloth isn't really a side of the Force - she's the opposite of it. She's like a cancer of the Force.

As the Bringer of Chaos, Abeloth is meant to be the polar opposite of the Father (Balance). It stands to reason that she's comparable to him in power, and since in his prime, he's the most powerful of all the Ones, meaning that Abeloth is indeed at least comparable to the Son.



I believe it was also the Killiks who established that Abeloth was initially a mortal as opposed to a celestial being from birth. So if you're gonna deny this on the grounds that it comes from an unreliable source, you could frankly say the same about your entire first paragraph.

And the Father initially was able to control them for a time, as well. Besides, what the Father states is that only the Chosen One can tame his children, not defeat/contend with them. Abeloth, regardless of whether she could beat them or only compete with them, definitely won't be able to control them.



Right, because doing the exact same thing for millions of years with no greater success over time counts for something?



And yet remarkably, she was able to control the plants on her world. She was able to influence Luke's mind, conceal her presence from Luke himself, bend Lightning without even touching it, use Force-flash on ships across an entire star system, etc. - that's clearly an extremely high level of Force mastery.

Also, you can say the same stuff about Nihilus, except you seem to have no issues with his lack of control over his own power. Regardless, your claims seem more relevant to beings like the Bedlam Spirits than Abeloth, who has demonstrated masterful displays of the Force.



Because she wanted him to suffer? That's something that we term as PIS. Palpatine forgot that Vader cared foremost about his family when he tortured Luke in RotJ - and Nihilus, if the scripts and hype are anything to go by - should've snapped Mandalore's neck with a gesture or less, yet it never happened. Vitiate purportedly could've killed all the Strike Team members on Yavin IV, but that didn't happen either.

If we want to go this route, the Son's Lightning failed to kill Obi-Wan, and he had no reason to spare Obi-Wan either.



They might be more masterful, but that's irrelevant to the notion that Abeloth can't compete with them in any area other than raw power, as you suggested. Her physical traits don't seem to be off theirs by much, if at all, her range of powers seems comparable, and in various individual powers, she does seem very comparable.

Originally posted by Sinious
So Vitiate x100000000000000000000 would be stomped by the "Universal" beings of Mortis but this team could defeat one of them? I don't see the logic in that.

Do we consider the Son as a semi-omnipotent being or just a couple times more powerful than top tier Jedi/Sith?


Well I guess there's the argument that if Anakin was capable of subduing the Son and Daughter together (on Mortis), then Prime Luke should have some kind of chance against the Son alone. And backed up by these 2 Powerhouses he should have a decent chance.

That being said I think it's pretty clear no individual Jedi or Sith was ever truly as Powerful as any of The Ones. And Only Anakin Skywalker had the potential to be, but never actualized that potential (except for possibly that brief moment on Mortis).

Thor: That, essentially, is what I'm pointing out.

Anakin's full potential would solo Son. How of much of dear old dad's full potential does Luke have? All Luke needs is enough of dad's potential to compete with Son.

Presuming he enters Oneness...he just might have enough. And even if it's not quite enough, one figures that Ziost_Vitiate and DE Sidious, lending support from the same Dark Side Son is the embodiment of, just might throw him off enough for Luke to do this.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Thor: That, essentially, is what I'm pointing out.

Anakin's full potential would solo Son. How of much of dear old dad's full potential does Luke have? All Luke needs is enough of dad's potential to compete with Son.

Presuming he enters Oneness...he just might have enough. And even if it's not quite enough, one figures that Ziost_Vitiate and DE Sidious, lending support from the same Dark Side Son is the embodiment of, just might throw him off enough for Luke to do this.
Luke in Oneness got quickly smacked down by Abeloth for whatever it's worth.

Didn't Lucas say that Luke obtained the potential of the chosen one?

Luke performance against 'final bosses' varies. Heroes don't typically win their first encounter with major villains.

And it remains the case that Ziost_Vitiate and DE Sidious are far, far superior to Krayt and a couple amped n00bs.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Didn't Lucas say that Luke obtained the potential of the chosen one?


Not quite. He said something along the lines of Luke is what Anakin should have been. Think that's more to do with rejecting the dark side and saving the Galaxy.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not quite. He said something along the lines of Luke is what Anakin should have been. Think that's more to do with rejecting the dark side and saving the Galaxy.

I guess that line is more of up for interpretation. If you think about it his potential would defimtly be what anakins was supposed to be since he is his offspring.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I guess that line is more of up for interpretation. If you think about it his potential would defimtly be what anakins was supposed to be since he is his offspring.


No, the general consensus is Anakin had more potential than his offspring.

But even if Luke's potential is close to Anakin's, then I agree at full potential he should have a shot at The Son alone.

Anakin may have had more, but he didn't have THAT much more. And I doubt the difference between Anakin and Luke is greater then the difference between Father and Son. (See what I did there?)

Make a stupid pun with no substantiation?

LOL.

Well, we're basically comparing Mortis Anakin to his son with Oneness. Is the difference greater then that between Father and Son? If so, why?

It is unknown if Luke could achieve something better then Oneness on Mortis, or if Mortis is simply what happens when Anakin achieves Oneness.

Bottom line, though, is that there are simply too many unknowns to make a call.

Anakin on Mortis is superior to Luke in Oneness, so that's a pretty cut and dry. You can try to dance around that all you want, but you'll have next to no one agree with you. The Ones are always in a state like it, and Anakin was still able to defeat both of them. Luke has done nothing in Oneness to make him comparable to the Ones, so it's time to move on, imo.

But how much superior? Is Mortis simply Anakin achieving Oneness? Does Mortis amp him in some other way? We don't know.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
But how much superior? Is Mortis simply Anakin achieving Oneness? Does Mortis amp him in some other way? We don't know.


Well it wasn't just about being on Mortis. It was also some kind of Oneness state he achieved, seen as he got his butt kicked by The Son in later episodes, while still on Mortis.

Then you have The Father's comments that- Only the Chosen One could have done that..

And it shows Anakin's potential was greater than any other Force user who ever existed or ever. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that Luke's potential was anywhere near that level. All we know is Luke still had greater potential than Yoda and Sidious.

The difference being Luke actually achieved that, where his father never did.

Still, heir to the Chosen One counts for a lot.

Anakin's Mortis feat with the Son and Daughter is a much better performance than Oneness Luke's against Abeloth.