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Pikon is interested in testing the might of the saiyans he has not fought. Goku gave him the closest match of his afterlife so he now wants to see how he can fare against the others.

1. SS2 Teen Gohan(Buu saga)
2. SS2 Gohan(Cell games)
3. SS2 Vegeta
4. SS2 Majin Vegeta

How far does Pikon get? Which fights are as close as his fight with Goku?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091112121127/dragonball/images/2/26/PikkonDBZ.png

hYcEvG3rvl0

That *should* have been Super-Perfect Cell that Pikkon casually two-shotted. If so, he'd get to at least #3.

Stops at one. MAAAYBE two.

You think Buu Gohan > the Goku Pikon fought?

Am guessing Pikkon either gets to or stops at #3 or 4.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
You think Buu Gohan > the Goku Pikon fought?

Pikkon couldn't beat a MSSJ Goku so yes he loses to every SSJ2. Only way Gohan loses is because he's a pussy but he's still more powerful.

MSSJ Goku?

Wait are you questioning of the validity of it or do you not know what it means?

If the first one then Goku's hair was his original SSJ hair and he had no sparks so he definitely wasn't a SSJ2.

If the latter then it means Mastered Super Saiyan which was the form Goku and Gohan took after a year of training. It's essentially Super Saiyan without an energy drawback that fatigues them easily.

Anyways Pikkon had a hard fight with a regular SSJ so he's weaker than any SSJ2.

Oh Full Power SSJ ok.

Pikkon two-shotted a SSJ2-level being(Super-Perfect Cell), so I don't know where this "any SSJ2 beats him" nonsense is coming from.

He also shrugged off Goku's super-kaioken, for what it's worth.

Majin Vegeta should be where he stops after a good fight, but there's no difference between an SSJ 2 Vegeta and Majin that I know of. Babidi just unlocked his potential or something like that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Pikkon two-shotted a SSJ2-level being(Super-Perfect Cell), so I don't know where this "any SSJ2 beats him" nonsense is coming from.

He also shrugged off Goku's super-kaioken, for what it's worth.

lol the real nonsense is if you think a SSJ2 fighter would be evenly matched against a normal SSJ just because you're using a 2 second high showing. And Cell showed no sparks so there is absolutely no evidence that he was powered up as SPC but nice try.

Cell was taken by surprise, nothing more. It happens all the time...
Anything above that is just ignoring reason.

Lol, so Cell was inextricably depowered upon his death? Please, I'd rather not start just making things up. It was Super-Perfect Cell, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Additionally, we know that Goku had evidently become more powerful after his death, because he was about to engage Super-Perfect Cell as a FALSE SSJ, until Pikkon swooped in:
http://i.imgur.com/noGIgSZ.jpg
So despite already knowing how powerful Cell was, Goku didn't even feel the need to transform into a proper SSJ to fight him. This is indicative of Goku becoming substantially more powerful. How could his power have increased that much? Well, the only logical answer is that he received a decent zenkai secondary to his pre-death beat-down at the hands of Cell & the Cell Juniors.

Anyway, it's clear that Pikkon is solidly in the SSJ2 tier-- nothing less than that could have beaten SPC so easily. You not liking said feat doesn't change the fact that it still happened.



And Pikkon did NOT take Cell by surprise. Had you actually watched the clip I posted, you would have noted that Cell both saw, and verbally reacted to, Pikkon coming at him head-on, prior to being attacked:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYcEvG3rvl0
(1:50)
Pikkon tooled him fair and square.

I agree. I always viewed Pikkon in the SSJ2 tier. That is the reason I made this thread to try and decipher where exactly he would be ranked among the rest of the players in that tier.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, so Cell was inextricably depowered upon his death? Please, I'd rather not start just making things up. It was Super-Perfect Cell, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

What part of no sparks was hard to understand? Do you not watch DBZ? Characters spend time to, you know, power up? Right? Cell was toying with weaklings and didn't bother to go into full strength as otherwise shown by the LACK OF SPARKS. Yes that is viable evidence that Cell was not fully powered up. No, he didn't lose his powers you're attacking a strawman and a rather poor one at that. What I'm claiming is that it wasn't "turned on." So I'll say it again before you ignore it: there was no sparks meaning NO PROOF that Cell was SPC. The burden is on you, not me but nice spin.



That's cool. So when Goku thinks he can beat Call it's valid but when Goku flat out admits Gotenks is stronger that doesn't count? Hilarity.



My response to this:



Yep it's so undeniably clear like how he stomped a SSJ tier character when he's so clearly a SSJ2. I like reason and apparently you don't so if you want to claim that Pikkon was using like half of his power against Goku in the finals of a tournament, go ahead and believe that. =/




The "you didn't check out the source material" is such a overused and weaksauce attempt of fallaciously inferiorizing the other person's argument and it actually really annoyed me. Bravo. So I'll return the favor. Did you objectively watch it or were just turned on by the wank? Cell was rushing towards Goku and did not realize someone stepped in and was screaming out of shock because he was surprised. He didn't know what was going on which makes it a surprise attack.

Can't wait for you to spin this so I'll save you the trouble and concede before I break my computer.

Originally posted by Based
so I'll save you the trouble and concede before I break my computer. I was going to pick apart every portion of the ridiculousness you spewed from your keyboard, until I read this.

Concession accepted. Thanks for saving me the time.

Vegeta beats him.

Majin Vegeta kills him.

A question about this topic, wasn't there an off-hand comment in the anime about how Goku actually got to train in the afterlife because he was allowed to keep his body? As far as we've seen in the anime the villains seem to perform rather worse in the afterlife than they should've in other conditions.

The Ginyu forces got utterly trashed by Yamcha/Tien when they went to Kaiohsama's planet, for example.

Originally posted by Bentley
A question about this topic, wasn't there an off-hand comment in the anime about how Goku actually got to train in the afterlife because he was allowed to keep his body? As far as we've seen in the anime the villains seem to perform rather worse in the afterlife than they should've in other conditions.

The Ginyu forces got utterly trashed by Yamcha/Tien when they went to Kaiohsama's planet, for example.

I do think the villians get depowered at least somewhat. I meant they said Raditz put up a fight so i can only imagine what kind of fits Nappa, the Ginyus, Frieza, Cell and Dabura were throwing yet they were all contained seemingly easy enough.

And Yamcha and Tien have no business stomping the Ginyus after Vegeta looked like such a loser against them

Originally posted by juggerman
Vegeta beats him.

Majin Vegeta kills him. I agree.

Originally posted by Bentley
A question about this topic, wasn't there an off-hand comment in the anime about how Goku actually got to train in the afterlife because he was allowed to keep his body? As far as we've seen in the anime the villains seem to perform rather worse in the afterlife than they should've in other conditions.

The Ginyu forces got utterly trashed by Yamcha/Tien when they went to Kaiohsama's planet, for example. It has never been so much as alluded to that an evil character is depowered upon their death. In the filler episodes you're talking about, Yamcha and Tien were able to beat the Ginyu Force, but after doing so Yamcha explicitly noted: "you have to admit that all the stuff King Kai taught us really came in handy."

This tells us that it was King Kai's training, not the Ginyu Force being less powerful, that allowed him/them to win.

Originally posted by Galan007
It has never been so much as alluded to that an evil character is depowered upon their death. In the filler episodes you're talking about, Yamcha and Tien were able to beat the Ginyu Force, but after doing so Yamcha explicitly noted: "you have to admit that all the stuff King Kai taught us really came in handy."

This tells us that it was King Kai's training, not the Ginyu Force being less powerful, that allowed him/them to win.

It hasn't been you're right, but it seems silly since Goku after training and learning more than Ymcha and Tien learned was nowhere near Vegeta's level when he took on the Ginyu's and he had become miles more powerful since Earth where Goku barely matched him.

And didn't Goku stomp Frieza without transforming? That would make it seem like Goku's base>>>Frieza's full power which Bills says isn't so. And wasn't Dabura being restrained by Yemma's men or Yemma himself at one point? Since King Kai is confirmed to be weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta yet stronger than Yemma it seems crazy that they could ever overpower someone like Dabura

Also:

Originally posted by Based
What part of no sparks was hard to understand? Do you not watch DBZ? Characters spend time to, you know, power up? Right? Cell was toying with weaklings and didn't bother to go into full strength as otherwise shown by the LACK OF SPARKS. Yes that is viable evidence that Cell was not fully powered up. No, he didn't lose his powers you're attacking a strawman and a rather poor one at that. What I'm claiming is that it wasn't "turned on." So I'll say it again before you ignore it: there was no sparks meaning NO PROOF that Cell was SPC. The burden is on you, not me but nice spin.



That's cool. So when Goku thinks he can beat Call it's valid but when Goku flat out admits Gotenks is stronger that doesn't count? Hilarity.



My response to this:



Yep it's so undeniably clear like how he stomped a SSJ tier character when he's so clearly a SSJ2. I like reason and apparently you don't so if you want to claim that Pikkon was using like half of his power against Goku in the finals of a tournament, go ahead and believe that. =/




The "you didn't check out the source material" is such a overused and weaksauce attempt of fallaciously inferiorizing the other person's argument and it actually really annoyed me. Bravo. So I'll return the favor. Did you objectively watch it or were just turned on by the wank? Cell was rushing towards Goku and did not realize someone stepped in and was screaming out of shock because he was surprised. He didn't know what was going on which makes it a surprise attack.

Can't wait for you to spin this so I'll save you the trouble and concede before I break my computer.

DAFUQ?

Originally posted by juggerman
It hasn't been you're right, but it seems silly since Goku after training and learning more than Ymcha and Tien learned was nowhere near Vegeta's level when he took on the Ginyu's and he had become miles more powerful since Earth where Goku barely matched him. You have to remember, Yamcha and Tien beating the Ginyu Force occurred in the anime filler only. It isn't canon to the manga.

For what it's worth, though, in the same episode where Pikkon tooled SPC, Goku commented to Pikkon on his power: "I've already fought Cell and you haven't. Unless you're crazy powerful, you're going to need my help." This tells us that Goku didn't think Cell was any less powerful.

Aside from that, Cell wasn't worried about fighting Goku at all-- had he been less powerful, I'm sure that would have been a consideration of his.

Originally posted by juggerman
And didn't Goku stomp Frieza without transforming? That would make it seem like Goku's base>>>Frieza's full power which Bills says isn't so. No, never. Goku hurt Frieza with a 20x kaioken-amped kamehameha, but Frieza was only using 50% of his power at the time.

Originally posted by juggerman
And wasn't Dabura being restrained by Yemma's men or Yemma himself at one point? Since King Kai is confirmed to be weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta yet stronger than Yemma it seems crazy that they could ever overpower someone like Dabura Again, this happened in the anime filler only. Either way, Dabura started throwing around those ogres once he was in front of Yemma. Then Yemma gave him his "stamp of approval", which made Dabura repent his evil ways, etc.

Originally posted by Galan007
You have to remember, Yamcha and Tien beating the Ginyu Force occurred in the anime filler only. It isn't canon to the manga.

For what it's worth, though, in the same episode where Pikkon tooled SPC, Goku commented to Pikkon on his power: "I've already fought Cell and you haven't. Unless you're crazy powerful, you're going to need my help." This tells us that Goku didn't think Cell was any less powerful.

Aside from that, Cell wasn't worried about fighting Goku at all-- had he been less powerful, I'm sure that would have been a consideration of his.

Ah yes. Ok then

Originally posted by Galan007
No, never. Goku hurt Frieza with a 20x kaioken-amped kamehameha, but Frieza was only using 50% of his power at the time.

Again, this happened in the anime filler only. Either way, Dabura started throwing around those ogres once he was in front of Yemma. Then Yemma gave him his "stamp of approval", which made Dabura repent his evil ways, etc.

I meant in the filler didn't he beat Frieza. I honestly don't recall

Originally posted by juggerman
I meant in the filler didn't he beat Frieza. I honestly don't recall No, Goku was thoroughly trounced in the anime as well. The only attacks that even damaged Frieza a little were his 20x kamehameha ans spirit bomb... And Frieza was only at 50% power when those attacks were delivered.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, Goku was thoroughly trounced in the anime as well. The only attacks that even damaged Frieza a little were his 20x kamehameha ans spirit bomb... And Frieza was only at 50% power when those attacks were delivered.

The HFIL filler

My bad for not being clear

Originally posted by juggerman
The HFIL filler

My bad for not being clear Oh, no. Goku didn't even get a chance to fight Frieza before Pikkon intervened.

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh, no. Goku didn't even get a chance to fight Frieza before Pikkon intervened.

Oh ok

Frieza pushed Goku to the limit. I still like the fight even if the SSJ transformation felt so stalled in the anime.

About the whole HFIL filler... If Goku's power had really increased as much as some of y'all claimed after his death in the Cell Games (reaching a SSJ2 level of power via zenkai while still only a full-powered SSJ), don't you think Cell himself would've taken note or commented on that power increase when he was about to engage him in battle? Kinda like how Frieza was like "How did he improve so much?!" right after Goku one-shotted the Ginyu Force. Frieza's comment though was obviously a reference to how Goku improved due to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

And sure, Goku did not power up to Super Saiyan during that moment, but he didn't exactly have that confident "I know I'm gonna win" look on his face when Cell was coming at him either. If anything he had that "Shit, what am I gonna do?" kind of expression. My guess is he would've powered up to full-power SSJ if they got to fight long enough had Pikkon not stepped in the way he did.

If the thing with Bills commenting on Goku not being strong enough to beat Frieza while in his normal state after examination and King Kai agreeing is any indication, I'm pretty sure Goku wouldn't be able to beat Cell (let along SPC) as a "false SSJ".

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
About the whole HFIL filler... If Goku's power had really increased as much as some of y'all claimed after his death in the Cell Games (reaching a SSJ2 level of power via zenkai while still only a full-powered SSJ), don't you think Cell himself would've taken note or commented on that power increase when he was about to engage him in battle? Cell had no way to gauge the extent of Goku's power, because he wasn't powered up. Like you said: Goku was just a FALSE SSJ-- he didn't transform into an actual SSJ in Otherworld until he battled Pikkon.

And keep in mind, none of this has any bearing whatsoever on canon manga happenings. As far as the manga is concerned, Goku likely never became equal to Super-Perfect Cell as a standard SSJ-- let alone far more powerful(as the anime indicated.) Welcome to the ridiculousness of non-canon fillers.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
My guess is he would've powered up to full-power SSJ if they got to fight long enough had Pikkon not stepped in the way he did.

If the thing with Bills commenting on Goku not being strong enough to beat Frieza while in his normal state after examination and King Kai agreeing is any indication, I'm pretty sure Goku wouldn't be able to beat Cell (let along SPC) as a "false SSJ". No one has argued otherwise.

Per that filler episode, however, Goku would have undeniably shit-stomped SPC, given how effortlessly Pikkon(of whom Goku battled to a near-standstill) was able to do so. That's all meesa sayin.

True... Guess I should know better than to try and make sense of what happens in fillers, as not as much thought is usually given to them.

I mean Olibu gave Pikkon quite a challenge in the Other World Tournmanet (despite losing in the end), and yet he gets knocked out by Yamcha during a spar in Kid Buu saga filler? Get outta here with that.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
True... Guess I should know better than to try and make sense of what happens in fillers, as not as much thought is usually given to them.

I mean Olibu gave Pikkon quite a challenge in the Other World Tournmanet (despite losing in the end), and yet he gets knocked out by Yamcha during a spar in Kid Buu saga filler? Get outta here with that. fillers are ridiculous. Although I really do wish Pikkon were a canon manga character-- he was one of my all-time favorite characters in DBZ.

Anyway, as far as the filler BS is concerned: SSJ Goku~Pikkon(although an argument could be made that Pikkon was slightly more powerful)>>Super-Perfect Cell>>>Frieza/King Cold. I mean, even if you want to ignore logic entirely, and act like it was just Perfect Cell, I still believe it would require no less than SSJ2-level power to own him as effortlessly as Pikkon did(two casual shots.)

Some may not like or agree with the implications, but Pikkon was portrayed as a solid SSJ2-level being in the filler, no matter how you slice it. IMO. /shrug

Pretty much. All it took were like 2-4 shots from SSJ2 Gohan to make him vomit out 18.