Freedon Nadd runs the gauntlet

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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Been talking about this guy on swforums recently. How far does he get, with full rests in btwn? all battles take place in lord vitiate's fortress in space. Please state your reason for where he fails/if he clears

1. Darth Baras
2. PoD Bane
3. DoE Zannah
4. Count Dooku
5. Prime Revan
Boss: Mace Windu

DarthAnt66
Losses at three.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
How so?

Nephthys
Nadd's too unknown for me to judge. He might not even get past Baras. Who knows.

Based
Since we all love taking KOTOR/TOR statements out of hand it is stated that Freedon Nadd was a lot nastier than Revan and Malak was combined.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
kk, lemme post some Nadd crap, based off of what I know bout him:
freedon Nadd was a very impressive lightsaber duelist, fighting on-par with Matta Tremayne, his master, whom was considered a master lightsaber duelist. As a sith lord, his lightsaber skills only improved, and he gained near-unparalleled combat experience. he also has a sith magic enhanced blaster, which as of KOTOR II, has killed more jedi than any lightsaber. He was a master sith sorceror, having mastery over the fear spell, and could utilize dark healing. He also used some form of TK, being able to force push vodo baas from across the galaxy. I say he can make it to 4.

ares834
Originally posted by Based
Since we all love taking KOTOR/TOR statements out of hand it is stated that Freedon Nadd was a lot nastier than Revan and Malak was combined.

No, a random Mandalorian says he was worse than either Revan or Malak.

Nephthys
Wait, whats that about his blaster?

"A vile weapon that once belonged to Freedon Nadd, this blaster has killed more Jedi then any lightsaber."

Daymn! Thats a lot of Jedi considering, you know, Tulak Hord and everything.

DarthAnt66
lol. Well honestly Zaanah as of DoE was pretty badass, tendrils and crap. Can't picture Nadd beating her, especially due to his lack of exposure.

Nephthys
True, I can't see Nadd getting through her lightsaber defense when even Bane was struggling to, Godblaster or not.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wait, whats that about his blaster?

"A vile weapon that once belonged to Freedon Nadd, this blaster has killed more Jedi then any lightsaber."

Daymn! Thats a lot of Jedi considering, you know, Tulak Hord and everything.

Good thing Hord never killed thousands of Jedi then.

yes

Nephthys
Even assuming thats true for the sake of not having an argument over it, his killcount would still have to have been in the hundreds imo.

ares834
Hundreds of Jedi? Why?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nadd is, in my opinion, on par with Zannah, for sure. In lightsaber combat, stalemating a master duelist whilst still a jed knight (note: he becomes quite a bit more powerful as the reigning dark lord) is more impressive than defeating set harth, and a distracted jedi. Although Bane struggled with breaking through Zannah's near-impenetrable defense, she's an absolute joke when mounting a lightsaber offensive. Another problem Zannah has is a lack of tactical acumen. As for the force, they are both masters of sith sorcery, so this'd prolly be a tie. Ultimately, I give it to Nadd, since I think he could win if i factored in his sith-magic blaster into this "equation."

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
Hundreds of Jedi? Why?

Fighting armies of Jedi 1000+ strong and soloing a siege. Even if you don't buy that siege was a thousand Jedi strong, it'd need to be a hundred or so since, you know, its a ****ing siege.

ares834
Why must the siege include solely Jedi?

Nephthys
3HKSaOj7w2Y

2.30 "The Jedi had laid siege." "Leaving nothing but Jedi blood in his wake."

"Khem Val devoured the life-energy from thousands of Jedi in ancient battles fought in Yn and Chabosh."

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Anyways, whacho peeps think about the actual gauntlet?

NewGuy01
If he doesn't lose at 3, then he could possibly clear. Though I won't go so far as to say Nadd>Dooku/Mace just yet.

I would have thought that Tulak Hord lived after Freedon Nadd, 'cause, you know, Hord couldn't have been before Sadow because they had made no contact with the Jedi until then since the Hundred Year Darkness, and it couldn't have been before Exar Kun since there really was no Sith Empire until then. Yet, it had to be before Knights of the Old Republic, so it's kinda messed up. Tulak Hord existed in a different universe or something.

Q99
Originally posted by NewGuy01
If he doesn't lose at 3, then he could possibly clear. Though I won't go so far as to say Nadd>Dooku/Mace just yet.

I would have thought that Tulak Hord lived after Freedon Nadd, 'cause, you know, Hord couldn't have been before Sadow because they had made no contact with the Jedi until then since the Hundred Year Darkness, and it couldn't have been before Exar Kun since there really was no Sith Empire until then. Yet, it had to be before Knights of the Old Republic, so it's kinda messed up. Tulak Hord existed in a different universe or something.


It does indeed not make sense.


There is one other contact of note- shortly after the Hundred Years Darkness, some of the exiles came back around for another go at the Jedi. Their leader was Baron Remulus Dreypa, not Tulak, and what happened is they ran into a band of Jedi who had ideas of finishing off the exiles. They fought to a draw and ended up on Kesh, future home of the Lost Tribe of the Sith. Also, obviously, not eligible.



Hm... maybe the destruction of the Empire during Sadow's time wasn't complete, and Tulak lead a pyrrhic defense or something before being completely destroyed? That's... about the only place I can think of to even shoehorn him in, because we know the identity of every major Sith Lord who fought the Jedi up into the KotoR era and even beyond. It's only past that point that we start getting gaps in the records.


Or, was he just one who never fought the true Jedi? Perhaps the 'Jedi' he faced were fellow students of the 12 Dark Jedi Exiles, who simply chose to keep the name Jedi while he was aligned with the faction who preferred the name Sith.



Hm... if I wrote it, that's how I'd smooth him into the timeline. After the first generations of exiles, two factions rise, and I'd put him in charge of the winning one.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
3HKSaOj7w2Y

2.30 "The Jedi had laid siege." "Leaving nothing but Jedi blood in his wake."

"Khem Val devoured the life-energy from thousands of Jedi in ancient battles fought in Yn and Chabosh."

Unless you take the second quote as literal, that doesn't mean the Jedi were the the only ones fighting Tulak Hord.

mikemikeer
The fact that the writers carelessly retconned the idea that the jedi did not meet the sith empire until the GSW, is just retarded.

Nephthys
There's no mention of anyone except for Jedi. If it were the Jedi and their armies it would probably have been mentioned at least once. Instead Khem literally says there's nothing but Jedi blood. Even if you choose to believe that isn't literal, its hugely inductive that there were only Jedi there. Again, if Republic forces were there he might have mentioned it.

Furthermore we see in Chabosh that armies of Jedi existed in that period, as Khem and Hord fought an army of Jedi one thousand strong. Guess what? Again no mention of Republic forces.

In short, only Jedi are mentioned as present, there's precedent of Jedi armies existing at the time and the only thing saying there might have been non-Jedi forces present is your own, baseless speculation. Everything points of Jedi, nothing to Republic. You have no argument. Now can we please stop monopolising the thread over this?

Originally posted by mikemikeer
The fact that the writers carelessly retconned the idea that the jedi did not meet the sith empire until the GSW, is just retarded.

Well as Q99 pointed out thats been retconned before so....

ares834
No baseless speculation about it. It says the Jedi laid siege which would just imply the Jedi are in charge not that they are the only ones.

That no one else isn't mentioned doesn't mean they weren't involved, only that Khem Val didn't find them important enough to mention. Ultimately, I see nothing that precludes the possibility that others besides the Jedi were involved. I am not, however, stating that there necessarily were others just that we can't say for sure that it was only Jedi.

Originally posted by mikemikeer
The fact that the writers carelessly retconned the idea that the jedi did not meet the sith empire until the GSW, is just retarded.

Agreed.

Q99
It's been retconned, but always in a way that left the lack of knowledge between the HYD and Naga, which is a very critical part of the timeline.

Hm, maybe stick him in post-Naga? Have the empire survive Naga's fall for a bit, he takes charge, Jedi kill him.


Mostly it's a result of lazy writers forgetting they're early in the timeline before a point where you could just drop in Jedi-Sith conflicts randomly.

Nephthys
Jedi didn't kill him. His apprentice Orton Cela stabbed him in the back and Cela's Dashade servant Veshikk Urk consumed his Force energy. Hord thought Cela was too petty and insignificant and pose a threat and he let his guard down.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Q99
It's been retconned, but always in a way that left the lack of knowledge between the HYD and Naga, which is a very critical part of the timeline.

Hm, maybe stick him in post-Naga? Have the empire survive Naga's fall for a bit, he takes charge, Jedi kill him.


Mostly it's a result of lazy writers forgetting they're early in the timeline before a point where you could just drop in Jedi-Sith conflicts randomly.

Speaking of lazy writing, I've yet to finish Legacy.

Nephthys
Although I don't think Hord could possibly be post-Naga seeing as the Empire was well and truly destroyed in that war, and more importantly Korriban was bombed and massacred. And since Tulak Hord is buried on Korriban it's unlikely he lived after that.

msparks92817
It's been established that Hord existed long before Ragnos' empire. Kallig was buried on Dromund Kaas for "thousands of years" when the Emperor found his grave.

Nephthys
^ True. thumb up

Forgot about Kallig (one of Hords generals for those unfamiliar with him).

Originally posted by ares834
No baseless speculation about it. It says the Jedi laid siege which would just imply the Jedi are in charge not that they are the only ones.

No. It does not imply the Jedi were just in charge in the slightest or that they were not the only ones there. There is no implication. Now it does not necessarily imply that they were the only ones there or that it isn't a possibility that an army was with them. However since they are the only ones mentioned the possibility of an army is just speculation. And it is baseless. Theres nothing indicating the Jedi were in charge of an army rather than just being the whole army themselves.

Meanwhile the Jedi are the ones mentioned as being there, Khem specifically says there was only Jedi there and theres an example of a 1000 strong Jedi army at the time to add credence to the idea that it was the Jedi and just the Jedi.

Originally posted by ares834
That no one else isn't mentioned doesn't mean they weren't involved, only that Khem Val didn't find them important enough to mention.

True, but theres nothing indicating they were involved either other than your completely groundless speculation.

Originally posted by ares834
Ultimately, I see nothing that precludes the possibility that others besides the Jedi were involved.

Except for Khem Val saying the was only Jedi blood in Tulak Hords wake.

Originally posted by ares834
I am not, however, stating that there necessarily were others just that we can't say for sure that it was only Jedi.

Just as I don't 100% discount the idea that there were others, just that the evidence only indicates there were Jedi there and suggests they were alone. I don't think there were Republic troops there for the same reason I don't think there were Mandalorians or the Flying Spaghetti Monster fighting with the Jedi: The fact that theres absolutely nothing indicating that they were while evidence suggests they were not.

msparks92817
Both Hord and Kallig are among the top tier of force users in the mythos, and that's without knowing much about them.

ROTJ Vader
Tulak existed before Ragnos, long before I believe.

ares834
Originally posted by msparks92817
It's been established that Hord existed long before Ragnos' empire. Kallig was buried on Dromund Kaas for "thousands of years" when the Emperor found his grave.

When did Vitiate find the tomb. Because, if he found it shortly after the GHW, that would suggest that Kalling and thus Hord were around before the the Jedi Exiles came to Korriban...

And once again, Bioware shows its ineptness concerning the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just as I don't 100% discount the idea that there were others, just that the evidence only indicates there were Jedi there and suggests they were alone. I don't think there were Republic troops there for the same reason I don't think there were Mandalorians or the Flying Spaghetti Monster fighting with the Jedi: The fact that theres absolutely nothing indicating that they were while evidence suggests they were not.

Except, I was merely discounting you suggestion that Tulak Hord killed at least hundreds of Jedi. As the possibility of others fighting alongside the Jedi remains.

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that we don't actually see or know what happened. All we have to go on is hearsay from Khem Val.

msparks92817
Through SWTOR and KOTOR, it was established I think that both Hord and Kallig existed after the Exiles.

ROTJ Vader
Anyways, Nadd clears.

ares834
Originally posted by msparks92817
Through SWTOR and KOTOR, it was established I think that both Hord and Kallig existed after the Exiles.

Well, yeah. Which is why I said it was Bioware screwing up again as the Exiles conquered Korriban less than two thousand years before the GHW.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Anyways, Nadd clears.

Reason? I'm not sayin ur wrong, just would like to see how he clears.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Reason? I'm not sayin ur wrong, just would like to see how he clears.

Well, he has better feats then Zannah/PoD Bane Imo and a very high Jedi kill count and matched a lightsaber master when just a Jedi Knight + he has sith sorcery aswell. I think he could clear.

ares834
He doesn't even have the feats necessary to say he could beat PoD Bane TBH.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Personally, when he gets (if he gets) to dooku/windu, his sorcery absolutely HAS to work, which I think it can, since dooku and windu have never confronted sith sorcery.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by ares834
He doesn't even have the feats necessary to say he could beat PoD Bane TBH.

Really?.

Force pushing Vodo Siosk-Baas from across the galaxy, killing insane numbers of Jedi with a blaster, stalemating a master lightsaber duelist well just a Jedi Knight, ruling a planet in darkness as a spirt (well half). PoD Bane has nothing near those feats. And he also collapsed a cave.

ares834
Yeah, none if that is really impressive.

1. Didn't happen. Vodo confronted Freedon is some sorta metaphysical confrontation and Nadd simply caused Vodo some pain and sent him back to his body.

2. Don't know the circumstances of how he killed the Jedi nor an accurate number.

3. PoD Bane has defeated his own lightsaber master as well. And, considering the quality of many of these so called "legendary swordmasters" the Jedi have produced I'm not all that impressed.

4. No he didn't. His descendants and stuff ruled the world.

5. Cool... Plenty of other have caused in cave in and Bane collapsed a temple.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, none if that is really impressive.

1. Didn't happen. Vodo confronted Freedon is some sorta metaphysical confrontation and Nadd simply caused Vodo some pain and sent him back to his body.

2. Don't know the circumstances of how he killed the Jedi nor an accurate number.

3. PoD Bane has defeated his own lightsaber master as well. And, considering the quality of many of these so called "legendary swordmasters" the Jedi have produced I'm not all that impressed.

4. No he didn't. His descendants and stuff ruled the world.

5. Cool... Plenty of other have caused in cave in and Bane collapsed a temple.

1.Yeah he was able to push him from across the galaxy when Vodo was confronting Kun in the metaphysical confrontation. That is impressive seeing as how he was able to invade Kuns thoughts and push Vodo back from across the galaxy.

2.More jedi with a blaster died at his hands then any lightsaber-and that INCLUDES tulak hord who killed hundreds of Jedi. That would put him above PoD Bane.

3.lol. Bane got his ass pwned in that fight... He only lasted that long because you know he had studied Kas'ims moves in and out?. Banes best feat is beating Sirak. Not on nadds level.

4.he was the one calling the shots and giving them power. The queen even used his power to subdue Uliq, Tott, and Cay.

5.On a DS nexus lol and from smashing a column.

Still not seeing how Nadd is unimpressive.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
2. Don't know the circumstances of how he killed the Jedi nor an accurate number.

Well it is extremely hard to kill a Jedi with a blaster and the fact that he dual-wielded it with his short lightsaber probably means he killed them in combat.

Plus its said he killed more Jedi than any lightsaber with it, which alone would have to make him, what, the most prolific Jedi Killer in history? Thats pretty impressive.

ares834
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
1.Yeah he was able to push him from across the galaxy when Vodo was confronting Kun in the metaphysical confrontation. That is impressive seeing as how he was able to invade Kuns thoughts and push Vodo back from across the galaxy.

2.More jedi with a blaster died at his hands then any lightsaber-and that INCLUDES tulak hord who killed hundreds of Jedi. That would put him above PoD Bane.

3.lol. Bane got his ass pwned in that fight... He only lasted that long because you know he had studied Kas'ims moves in and out?. Banes best feat is beating Sirak. Not on nadds level.

4.he was the one calling the shots and giving them power. The queen even used his power to subdue Uliq, Tott, and Cay.

5.On a DS nexus lol and from smashing a column.

Still not seeing how Nadd is unimpressive.

1. Reread the comic. Nothing suggest that Vodo is being pushed.

2. As I said before, I don't believe Hord killed hundreds of Jedi. At least not until someone gives me concrete proof he did.

3. Bane had the advantage over Kasim until the later went to dual lightsabers. And as I said before, the Jedi's so called "legendary swordmasters" are generally not all that impressive compared to higher tier characters.

4. Proof that he was calling the shots? All I've seen is him teaching his descendants sith powers. I have seen no evidence that they were pawns with which he ruled Onderon.

5. Nadd was on a dark side nexus as well.

Edit: Heck rereading the comic when Nadd causes the cave to collapse it specifically notes he releases the "cataclysmic energy in this powerful place".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well it is extremely hard to kill a Jedi with a blaster and the fact that he dual-wielded it with his short lightsaber probably means he killed them in combat.

Plus its said he killed more Jedi than any lightsaber with it, which alone would have to make him, what, the most prolific Jedi Killer in history? Thats pretty impressive.

Which speaks to the incompetence of those Jedi then... evil face

Anyway, Vader already has the "greatest Jedi killer of all time" accolade under his belt.

S_W_LeGenD
Nadd may not get past even 1.

People don't have a clue about power and smartness of Baras, it seems.

Originally posted by ares834
Which speaks to the incompetence of those Jedi then... evil face
Or Nadd is a not a joke?

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, Vader already has the "greatest Jedi killer of all time" accolade under his belt.
Which indicates subjectivity of authors themselves.

Based
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nadd may not get past even 1.


Yeah and you would argue that Trask Ulgo would solo the PT Jedi Council because of a .03 second fight against Bandon. We get it.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Based
Yeah and you would argue that Trask Ulgo would solo the PT Jedi Council because of a .03 second fight against Bandon. We get it.
laughing out loud

No, I wouldn't claim that.

If I argue in favor of a character, I typically do so for legitimate reasons. My style is that I leave a hint first. When people question the hint, then I expand on it.

---

Recommended book: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

This book makes it clear that life in the Empire was very challenging for most of its inhabitants. Becoming a Sith Lord was a very difficult task since many died in the process. Becoming a DKM was unprecedentedly challenging task in the Empire since millions of Sith competed against each other for 12 seats. Even Force-users of Dooku's caliber or superior would easily perish in this kind of cutthroat competition.

Darth Baras was an exceptionally powerful, talented and smart Sith Lord. He have history of stalemating Satele Shan (in her prime) and disciplining another noticeably powerful figures such as Darth Angral (who killed a Jedi Master of Dooku's caliber). He had such command of the dark side that he could manipulate and control even some dark side entities. He put his talents and capabilities to effective use while participating in the cutthroat competition to acquire a position in the Dark Council. While in the council, Baras orchestrated a trap for Sith Emperor himself in a distant world.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
wait, Orgus Din = Dooku?

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