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Sabers
Force
All Out

In sabers, Dooku wins, but I don't think its a LOLstomp. Nobody mastered Niman like Kun did, and no one ever did so again. Plus it has been noted that Kun was really fast, because his saber staff was the same size as a regular lightsaber. Granted, so was Dooku, who mastered Makashi to an extent where he could deflect blaster bolts, take on multiple opponents, and that no one ever mastered Makashi like he did EVER again.

In Force i'm giving it to Kun. Mastery of Sith Alchemy, though barely.

All out? Kun. Kun's saber skill isnt too far behind Dooku and his Force abilities are pretty extensive. Though Kun wins barely.

Dooku by a good amount.

Kun in all 3, although the saber duel can conceivably go either way.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku by a good amount.

Dunno. Kun mastered Sith Alchemy. And he WAS the best saber duelist of the era. Not just one of the best. By feats, he is the best. Revan defeating Malak never impressed me, considering Malak is a weakling in comparison to Revan.

Exar Kun in any catagory and pretty easily. Dooku's pretty much outclassed in every area.

Pew pew.

Originally posted by XRKun
Dunno. Kun mastered Sith Alchemy. And he WAS the best saber duelist of the era. Not just one of the best. By feats, he is the best. Revan defeating Malak never impressed me, considering Malak is a weakling in comparison to Revan.

Ulic was comparable, but both are among the best ever that we know of.

Exar Kun barely probably.

Yo, lets talk Aleema Keto:

Aleema Keto was powerful enough to reduce people to crispy skeletons with her Force blasts.

Yet Kun was powerful enough to shrug off her blast and one-shot her with ease.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yo, lets talk Aleema Keto:

Aleema Keto was powerful enough to reduce people to crispy skeletons with her Force blasts.

Yet Kun was powerful enough to shrug off her blast and one-shot her with ease.

Dang. Thats pretty impressive.

Except Kun has an amulet, which amplifies his force blast's power. It might only be as powerful as Keto's, if he doesn't have them. Plus they can be dodged

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Except Kun has an amulet, which amplifies his force blast's power. It might only be as powerful as Keto's, if he doesn't have them. Plus they can be dodged

Aleema Keto's Force Blasts are impressive regardless. Reducing people to crispy skeletons with your own power is quite powerful.

Kun was able to SHIELD this, and retalitate.

Whether Kun's Force Blast is only powerful as Keto's without the amulet doesn't matter, because you're saying that Kun's blasts are still extremely strong. And that he can shield attacks with this much power.

Oh hell yeah, Kuns power comes from the amulet or something. Who knows how good he'd be without it. But its still standard equipment for him so it doesn't really matter.

yeah, but as I mentioned, dooku could dodge them (most likely), as I believe he does have impressive speed feats. Also Dooku has very potent TK.

Maybe? Those blasts were pretty large, which will make them hard to dodge while trying to get close. Plus since Kun is a Niman user he'll probably be firing them off while in lightsaber combat too.

Kun couldn't even kill Aleema with his blast.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus since Kun is a Niman user he'll probably be firing them off while in lightsaber combat too.

Has he ever been shown to do so, Neph?

I don't think so, but theres no reason why he couldn't. Its not like they take huge effort to shoot out seeing as he was firing them while jumping through the air and riding a sith dinosaur thing. And Niman is specialized towards allowing practitioners to use the Force mid-combat. And and it isn't a if he requires two hands to use his lightsaber since he's shown wielding it in only one.

Sith dinosaur lol.

benefit of the doubt is meaningless.

Yeah no, he can use them.

Does it not take some time to charge the blasts, as per Kun's own admission?

Exar Kun undoubtedly. He was a big threat to even Luke.

I would like your analysis on the actual battle

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Does it not take some time to charge the blasts, as per Kun's own admission?

No?

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://s16.postimg.org/lxwxdfyqd/kunspower.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/mlk1tx.jpg

He also owned Aleema Keto with a casual blast and brushed off her own attack and she was able to reduce people to skeletons with Force Blasts, which is pretty powerful.

And it didn't take him time to charge the blast that he took Keto out with.

My analysis of the battle: In sabers, Dooku would take this, as he has better speed feats, and his lightsaber style is very efficient against other lightsaber wielders. Another reason is the fact that he has defeated other legendary lightsaber duelists. Kun does have the element of surprise with his unique weapon, so he isnt hilariously outclassed in this area. In the force, both are quite even, as Kun has his powerful amulet blasts, and Dooku has powerful TK. In the all out, it would most likely start out as a saber battle, with dooku taking the slight edge. Kun would then resort to his amulet blasts, while Dooku would attempt to ragdoll Kun with TK. Ultimately, Exar Kun would triumph 6/10, as Dooku would be completely unfamiliar with Kun's amulet blasts, though he could grab an advantage with his TK. I declare Exar Kun the winner.

Kun honestly has no skill feats to compete. Vodo-Siosk Baas and Uliq-Qel Droma are completely featless.

lol Neph, note that it says he can barely control/direct it

Yeah. I just can't see Dooku taking Kun out with the Force seeing as how easily he brushed off Keto's attack as well as Odan-Urr's Wall of Light technique.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
lol Neph, note that it says he can barely control/direct it

And then note how he gains control over it enough to consciously use it against Nadd and casually blast Aleema. He couldn't control it at first but obviously gained control over it.

Besides being the best in the order? PT bias becomes obvious when one ignores facts and claims that no feats exist

yeah I disagree with that, Vodo Baas was the most revered warrior of his race (a race full of warriors), and specialized in staff combat. Ulic Qel droma was considered the greatest warrior in the jedi order.

Why are you quoting my posts to only spew out bullshit?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kun honestly has no skill feats to compete. Vodo-Siosk Baas and Uliq-Qel Droma are completely featless.

Ulic Qel-Droma arguably has the single greatest feat of pure lightsaber technique that we've ever seen (being able to match blades with one of the more prominent Jedi Knights of the era while completely cut off from The Force) and Exar Kun himself has quite the accomplishment under his belt in developing a form completely from scratch that was described as an improvement over the existing forms. Dooku by comparison basically is featless, in the sense that vague accolades and outclassing second rate Jedi with a lightsaber aren't really feats at all in the first place. He's completely outclassed in this matchup.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kun honestly has no skill feats to compete. Vodo-Siosk Baas and Uliq-Qel Droma are completely featless.


Ulic's been in a number of fights. He beat the Mandalorian at the time, defeated King Ommin (the darksider who lead the Naddist cult), defeated his brother Cay, was able to hold his own against the Jedi Sylvar, the one who gave Exar Kun his scars, even *after* being stripped of the force.


Baas, aside from his multiple duels with Kun, should be noted as having a buncha strong students, Exar and Sylvar. He also showed plenty of force power, battle meditation, wall of light, reinforcing objects with the force to block lightsabers, all that.


The era was overall more force-power focused than saber focused, to be sure.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Ulic Qel-Droma arguably has the single greatest feat of pure lightsaber technique that we've ever seen (being able to match blades with one of the more prominent Jedi Knights of the era while completely cut off from The Force) and Exar Kun himself has quite the accomplishment under his belt in developing a form completely from scratch that was described as an improvement over the existing forms. Dooku by comparison basically is featless, in the sense that vague accolades and outclassing second rate Jedi with a lightsaber aren't really feats at all in the first place. He's completely outclassed in this matchup.

lol

Anyway,

Sabers: Dooku
Force: Exar Kun
All-Out: Unsure

Astor, the swordsmen that dooku has tooled/bested are some of the best in the order's entire history, do not short-change the good count. They are most definitely not second rate, to stake such a claim is pure ignorance.

Not really. Outclassing General Grievous, skilled enough to regularly trouble some of the best Jedi in the order, and outclassing Bulq, one of the most skilled lightsaber instructors ever produced by the order, is far better than anything Kun has accomplished.

Crossing blades with some featless Knight isn't impressive. Developing a form doesn't showcase combat skill.

Like? The only truly top tier lightsaber practitioners that he defeated in combat as far as I know, such as Sora Bulq or RotS Obi-Wan, was through the use of Force attacks.

As we just stated, qel droma is most definitely not featless

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Crossing blades with some featless Knight isn't impressive. Developing a form doesn't showcase combat skill.

Sylvar wasn't featless and doing it against any Jedi while cut off from the Force would be extremely impressive. Developing a form (nevermind one that was stated to be an improvement over the existing forms) indicates great technical understanding of the weapon and general ingenuity with the weapon, and given that the form is stated to have died with him he also has the advantage of using a style that would be completely unfamiliar to Dooku.

Where is it stated that Exar Kun created his own unique form?

My understanding was that he used Niman.

Vader's not dodging the amulet blasts. If he gets by that, then it'll be more difficult for Kun.


His form was unique because his blade was unlike any other. It's a double bladed saber with the hilt being the size of a normal saber, and Kun was twirling it around in one hand.

May I ask what Dooku has done, specifically, with a lightsaber?

Originally posted by ares834
Where is it stated that Exar Kun created his own unique form?

My understanding was that he used Niman.

If it's not stated in the comic (I believe it was but it's been a while) it most certainly has been in sourcebooks and the reference guides. I believe Advent posted the quotes a while ago.

Can you find them? I'll do a quick scan of the comic.

I know his weapon is fairly unique but I've never heard he created his own style.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Crossing blades with some featless Knight isn't impressive. Developing a form doesn't showcase combat skill.

Sylvar isn't featless. She was able to scar Exar Kun, kill a hssiss and many massassi warriors and defeated an entire hive of Kiltik. For reference an average Kiltik looks like this:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/85/Kiltikguard.JPG

And she killed their queen which looks like this:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/ad/Kiltikqueen.JPG

She was also strong enough to hold a fat man off the ground with one arm casually.

And she was seriously pissed at Uliq making the feat even better. The fact is that it is an extremely impressive feat since Uliq did it completely cut off from the Force, relying solely on his skill and physical conditioning.


And people (in and out of universe) consider Windu a lightsaber prodigy since he refined Juyo into Vapaad so why should we not feel the same for Exar Kun?


Originally posted by msparks92817
Vader's not dodging the amulet blasts. If he gets by that, then it'll be more difficult for Kun.

True, but Vader might stand a chance at tanking them since his armor is really resistant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and many massassi warriors

Who were well trained, Force-sensitive warriors and she killed a few of them in quick succession while unarmed.

Originally posted by ares834
Can you find them? I'll do a quick scan of the comic.

I know his weapon is fairly unique but I've never heard he created his own style.

I'll try, they should be on this site somewhere. Either way I believe Intrepid has access to them though I wouldn't be surprised if she kept them secret.

This Intrepid, so dishonest.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sylvar isn't featless. She was able to scar Exar Kun,
And then I ask again: what has Kun done?

Originally posted by Nephthys
kill a hssiss
What's that?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and many massassi warriors
Feats for those massassi warriors?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and defeated an entire hive of Kiltik. For reference an average Kiltik looks like this:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/85/Kiltikguard.JPG

And she killed their queen which looks like this:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/ad/Kiltikqueen.JPG
Not really a skill feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She was also strong enough to hold a fat man off the ground with one arm casually.
Strength feat, not skill feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And she was seriously pissed at Uliq making the feat even better. The fact is that it is an extremely impressive feat since Uliq did it completely cut off from the Force, relying solely on his skill and physical conditioning.
Right, he had to rely on his skill to beat Sylvar, who's beaten a few warriors and a big musquito?




Originally posted by Nephthys
And people (in and out of universe) consider Windu a lightsaber prodigy since he refined Juyo into Vapaad so why should we not feel the same for Exar Kun?
This is extremely poor. I've never and will never ocnsider Windu a prodigy because he created Vaapad, I'll consider him a prodigy because of his feats and status as one of the most skilled Jedi ever.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
May I ask what Dooku has done, specifically, with a lightsaber?

He held off Yoda, and then faced with RotS Kenobi and Anakin he managed to KO Kenobi before falling.

He'd also held off Anakin+Obi-Wan on several prior occasions, and outmatched Ventress.



Originally posted by Intrepid37

Crossing blades with some featless Knight isn't impressive

I get extremely leery when people start tossing 'featless' around.

Because a lot of the time, the force users in question do have multiple combats under their belts. Then those fights are in turn dismissed as against 'featless,' and when what those have done are brought up... well, long story short, it's a complete devaluation of the term 'featless' and more a dismissal of feats than an actual lack of feats.


If you have to go multiple degrees out, then it's not featless. Sylvar's fought Exar Kun, Ulic Qel Droma, and a variety of tough/skilled non-forceusers. That's plenty of feats.

Sure.

I actually agree with Q here. it's like saying sidious isnt impressive because he beat kolar who beat someone who beat someone who is featless.

But Sidious has a vast array of other feats.

that I know. but saying that specific feat is unimpressive because of my aforementioned reason, is stupid.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But Sidious has a vast array of other feats.


All those feats were either (a) against featless people, (b) against people who's feats are only against featless people, or (c) against people who's feats are only against people who's feats are against featless people.


Therefore, featless.



Orrr one can stop pretending that featless is an endlessly transitive property/fights against people without a wide array of other feats are still, in themselves, feats.

Nope.

I think we can safely ignore Intrepid at this point. Contributing nothing but one word answers to fill his illogical bias can be humorous for so long.

You feel better about yourself now?

I'm sorry what's that sweetheart? I can't see what you wrote.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nope.

It's the same logic you use.


If, say, a half-dozen characters fighting each other as well as a variety of other foes gets tossed out, you're clearly just misusing the words feat/featless to mean 'the characters I like/the characters I don't like.'

Victory is mine.

Originally posted by Q99
It's the same logic you use.


If, say, a half-dozen characters fighting each other as well as a variety of other foes gets tossed out, you're clearly just misusing the words feat/featless to mean 'the characters I like/the characters I don't like.'
Uh, what? If they're featless they're featless.

kk. Luke/Sidious are basically featless
#failedlogic

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Uh, what? If they're featless they're featless.


*Laughs*

"Sure, they've each done a half-dozen things, and fought other people who've done more, but it doesn't count, because all those things are featless!"


You keep using that word. It does not mean what you think it means

But... they aren't.

Likewise, I would never say Kolar beating Quinlan Vos would be enough to declare him PoD Bane's superior, because Vos is featless. But the combination of beating Vos and being regarded as one of the best is something else.

ok, Yoda is the most powerful jedi in history, period. He is regarded as such, Luke isn't, and Luke is featless

Luke's not featless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And then I ask again: what has Kun done?


Originally posted by Intrepid37
What's that?

A type of sith spawn.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Feats for those massassi warriors?

Ok.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really a skill feat.

Who cares? Its a combat feat. Uliq fought her in combat, not a fencing competition. Uliq had to fight someone capable of wiping out an entire colony of car-sized man-eating bugs without using the Force. That he did so indicates great skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Strength feat, not skill feat.

Again, what does that matter. It demonstrates superhuman attributes, which Qel'Droma would have to deal with in their duel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Right, he had to rely on his skill to beat Sylvar, who's beaten a few warriors and a big musquito?



Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is extremely poor. I've never and will never ocnsider Windu a prodigy because he created Vaapad, I'll consider him a prodigy because of his feats and status as one of the most skilled Jedi ever.

Well I do and so do the Jedi order: "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style."

Developing a form obviously displays massive technical mastery and knowledge. Merely learning a form does not display the same grasp of lightsaber combat as developing your own form of lightsaber combat.

^^^

Nicely put, Neph.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Luke's not featless.

But you've been saying that beating people who're featless means someone counts as featless, and thus beating them just means someone is featless.

Which is completely silly, but that's what you've been arguing.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
But... they aren't.

Likewise, I would never say Kolar beating Quinlan Vos would be enough to declare him PoD Bane's superior, because Vos is featless. But the combination of beating Vos and being regarded as one of the best is something else.


Vos isn't featless either. He's fought not only Kolar, but Sora Bulq and a few others. He's actually got a good deal more feats than Kolar.


This is silly. You're silly. Stop calling stuff featless, you're using the word wrong.



Featless is if someone has actually done nothing. If you've been in a fight, you've got a feat. Even getting your butt kicked by a mook is a feat. Getting in multiple combats against multiple force users who've in turn gotten into multiple fights means someone has many feats establishing them.


An example of actual combat featlessness is Darth Caba. Darth Caba's only known actions are gathering intelligence reports for the TOR Sith Empire.

Stop just calling people you don't like featless even if they've done a lot, save it for people ike Darth Caba.

^^^

That makes sense.

Keto doing that and dark side blasts in general aren't necessarily just pure power. They are from Sith Magic, which in general makes spells/incantations cause a chain reaction on whatever the spell is tied to by "calling" unto the dark side on whatever you desire to affect, in this case vaporizing people down to skeletons. Like Zannah's dark tendrils.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
kk. Luke/Sidious are basically featless
#failedlogic

Well, not really, you see. I do see your logic, but it's incorrect, I too have pondered this.

If you go down the line long enough, everyone is featless in terms of who defeated who. But somewhere in the line, their power is gauged not by a fight, but by an accomplishment of skill or power. Such as lifting a ship, or moving fast enough to deflect rain drops. These are feats, and defeating someone who has achieved feats is a feat in itself.

So no, it's your logic that is flawed.

Originally posted by Q99
But you've been saying that beating people who're featless means someone counts as featless, and thus beating them just means someone is featless.

Which is completely silly, but that's what you've been arguing.





Vos isn't featless either. He's fought not only Kolar, but Sora Bulq and a few others. He's actually got a good deal more feats than Kolar.


This is silly. You're silly. Stop calling stuff featless, you're using the word wrong.



Featless is if someone has actually done nothing. If you've been in a fight, you've got a feat. Even getting your butt kicked by a mook is a feat. Getting in multiple combats against multiple force users who've in turn gotten into multiple fights means someone has many feats establishing them.


An example of actual combat featlessness is Darth Caba. Darth Caba's only known actions are gathering intelligence reports for the TOR Sith Empire.

Stop just calling people you don't like featless even if they've done a lot, save it for people ike Darth Caba.
God. I'm well aware that even if they beat some random kid they're not featless, but it's not helping his chances to say he beat that kid because that kid is... featless!

I'm saying it because it's a lot easier to call them featless than explaining that the kid he beat doesn't have any feats.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

If you go down the line long enough, everyone is featless in terms of who defeated who. But somewhere in the line, their power is gauged not by a fight, but by an accomplishment of skill or power. Such as lifting a ship, or moving fast enough to deflect rain drops. These are feats, and defeating someone who has achieved feats is a feat in itself.


Beating someone in a duel is a feat in itself, regardless of whether they've done anything more than pass their Jedi exams. So is taking out a trio of bandits. Or TKing a pencil.


Let's not devalue the word feat by making it mean "only acts of sufficient size for me to count," ok? Especially when it comes to lightsabers, where any duel against a forceuser involved defeating a precog with a plasma sword.


Something someone has done is a feat. You then argue size of feats. Featless is reserved for someone who actually does not have feats, not just because you don't want to count someone's feats.



Defeating a Stormtrooper is a feat, just a very minor one. Defeating a group of non-force using but powerful warriors, like Mandalorians or Vong, is a reasonable feat. Defeating a big group of force users in a single battle is a darned good feat even if the opponents are no-named warriors who's only feats are killing other people in the same battle.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
My analysis of the battle: In sabers, Dooku would take this, as he has better speed feats,

This is misleading. Dooku has speed feats in moving media; Kun exists only in comics and in novels. This reminds me of Gideon attempting to force me to prove someone was faster than Yoda when the former existed in similar media format. Since speed is implied with movement lines and hearsay, this isn't a good measurement to reply upon. For all we know, Exar Kun moves so fast he can't be seen by most Force users. Or perhaps he is indeed slower. There's no way to measure this. Kun is depicted as healthy and mobile in combat, and able to outmaneuver any opponent except for Ulic once he becomes DLotS.



True. However, Makashi mastery is not ultimate mastery. Experience, skill, and Force power apply as well. This is why Yoda using one of the most aggressive and exposing saber forms credited for Qui-Gon's defeat more than held his own against the Count.



In the PT era? The era of relative peace? The era where Sith are limited to 2 and have not been fought for a thousand years? That era? You might as well say he's the best swordsman in Illinois with that benchmark.



Considering Kun is a historical figure and basically laid the foundation for double bladed sabers which were norms for both sides throughout time, I don't see how his weapon would give him any advantage. To his credit, Dooku can fight off Ventress and her oddball weapon without any real issues.



http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/star-wars-darth-sidious-rotflmfao.jpg

Kun killed a Jedi Master of great age and power with a wave of his hand after shrugging off an attack created and perfected to divorce Sith Lords from their Force powers. He later overpowered a Sith sorceress who was powerful enough to create mass illusions. Oh, and that amulet which is part of his standard adventuring gear? It explicitly amplifies his rage and power exponentially. It's not a question of natural ability here, of which Kun has in spades (everyone admits as much), it's that he's so overpowered because of the amulet that no one can contend with him in the Force.



In a Force battle, Kun breaks Dooku. In a saber battle, it may be closer, but again Kun has tremendous augmented strength and his speed could be anywhere from good to better depending on evidence we don't have readily available. I doubt it would be a complete stomp, but Kun could certainly spank Yoda if he had too. Dooku would not be a stretch by comparison.

Tulak Hord would take a sithshit on Kun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tulak Hord would take a sithshit on Kun.



And Yoda would spank Kun

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


And Yoda would spank Kun

LOLNOPE.

Dooku's displayed more afterimages in a comic than Kun has. It's safe to point him out as the faster combatant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku's displayed more afterimages in a comic than Kun has. It's safe to point him out as the faster combatant.

This can't be a logical argument. Please tell me you're joking.

sigh

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This can't be a logical argument. Please tell me you're joking.
It's very logical. Dooku produced more, he whirls his blade faster, he is faster.

If I didn't see how Grievous killed Ol' Daka in TCW, I would be more impressed on hearing "Grievous overpowered a sorceress who is powerful enough to resurrect an army of the undead" than I would be on hearing "Kun overpowered a sorceress who was powerful enough to create mass illusions."

Why should we be impressed with Kun overpowering the sorceress, and how does that suggest he would overcome Dooku in a force contest?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's very logical. Dooku produced more, he whirls his blade faster, he is faster.

This is perhaps the worst argument I've heard in this forum in years. Well done.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If I didn't see how Grievous killed Ol' Daka in TCW, I would be more impressed on hearing "Grievous overpowered a sorceress who is powerful enough to resurrect an army of the undead" than I would be on hearing "Kun overpowered a sorceress who was powerful enough to create mass illusions."

Why should we be impressed with Kun overpowering the sorceress, and how does that suggest he would overcome Dooku in a force contest?

That's just a fraction of the stuff I posted, and a fraction of the ridiculous Force feats explicitly shown in Kun's appearancs in DLotS and TSW comics. As much as I'd love to spend the next fifteen minutes hosting image captures and explaining the plainly written stuff on them, it's almost 3 am.

You said this.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is misleading. Dooku has speed feats in moving media; Kun exists only in comics and in novels.

Fair. Then I'm comparing feats from a media both have been shown in, and Dooku simply comes off better. It's very simple.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If I didn't see how Grievous killed Ol' Daka in TCW, I would be more impressed on hearing "Grievous overpowered a sorceress who is powerful enough to resurrect an army of the undead" than I would be on hearing "Kun overpowered a sorceress who was powerful enough to create mass illusions."

Why should we be impressed with Kun overpowering the sorceress, and how does that suggest he would overcome Dooku in a force contest?

Said sorceress could reduce people to charred skeletons with her blasts. Kun shrugged off her blast and one shot her.

Ancient Sith Lord and Jedi are overrated as a fighters. Their knowledge was prehaps greater, but their saber skills, and force skills that they were using in duels were much worse.
In my oponion, Exar wont be able to beat Maul in lighstaber fight. I doubt, that he would have an advantage over Savage. He was the best, but only in his era.
There is no proof, that, for example, Baas was better duelist then Siolo'urmanka. And we all know, that Maul - who wasn't even reach his prime as a duelist, was much better then Siolo.

According to Wookieepedia, Maul won with a trick and Siolo'urmanka disarmed him quickly the first time they fought.

That story sounds retarded though.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You said this.



Fair. Then I'm comparing feats from a media both have been shown in, and Dooku simply comes off better. It's very simple.

I want to point out something:

Dooku's displayed more afterimages in a comic than Kun has. It's safe to point him out as the faster combatant.

^ This is not an objective indication of anything other than the preferred art style of the comic book creators. If you want to be this ridiculous, Exar Kun looks ripped compared to anyone in the PT, and could rip them all in half. Actually, considering his canon strength feats, that's probably true.

If you don't see how stupid this assertion is, there's no reason to debate with you.


Originally posted by Zett
Ancient Sith Lord and Jedi are overrated as a fighters. Their knowledge was prehaps greater, but their saber skills, and force skills that they were using in duels were much worse.
In my oponion, Exar wont be able to beat Maul in lighstaber fight. I doubt, that he would have an advantage over Savage. He was the best, but only in his era.
There is no proof, that, for example, Baas was better duelist then Siolo'urmanka. And we all know, that Maul - who wasn't even reach his prime as a duelist, was much better then Siolo.

I love this sweeping generalization. Let's ignore that the Jedi of Kun's time actively fought dark side users and some of their elders had completed genocide on the ancient Sith entirely. Lightsaber dueling is essential, and Exar Kun/Ulic are the top bar none of their entire era.

If you want to compare this to the 'legends' of the PT era, with their thousand years of not fighting Sith and their growing adherence to Niman, the Diplomat's Form, which resulted in huge losses at Genoshia, where no Sith took the field, go ahead and cling to that.

Exar Kun was one of the most dangerous Sith Lords in existence, which is impressive given his relative lack of age compared to most who came before and after him. If this really requires it, I'll provide the scans to cement this when I get home, because I'm getting the impression that no one around here but Neph knows what Kun can actually do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to Wookieepedia, Maul won with a trick and Siolo'urmanka disarmed him quickly the first time they fought.

That story sounds retarded though.

It's true, though.

I wasn't referring to that, I just think its ****ing dumb as hell that the Jedi fights a freaking Sith and then doesn't even bother to tell anybody. Dude just continues his meditation. Yeah, you just keep meditating bro, I'm sure that fact won't ever be important ever.

Retard.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I love this sweeping generalization. Let's ignore that the Jedi of Kun's time actively fought dark side users and some of their elders had completed genocide on the ancient Sith entirely. Lightsaber dueling is essential, and Exar Kun/Ulic are the top bar none of their entire era.

If you want to compare this to the 'legends' of the PT era, with their thousand years of not fighting Sith and their growing adherence to Niman, the Diplomat's Form, which resulted in huge losses at Genoshia, where no Sith took the field, go ahead and cling to that.

Exar Kun was one of the most dangerous Sith Lords in existence, which is impressive given his relative lack of age compared to most who came before and after him. If this really requires it, I'll provide the scans to cement this when I get home, because I'm getting the impression that no one around here but Neph knows what Kun can actually do.

I agree with this and will back this up with my arguments from previous threads:


"I don't believe thats true.

In fact the Force had been thrown out of balance favoring the darkside so its stupid to think the PT-era would have a stronger connection than ever before. Mace clearly says that their ability to use the Force had diminished. Its also true that their martial prowess had stagnated, since they no longer had to face lightsaber wielding opponents. Makashi was an extreme rarity because of this and as the quote on the last page showed the majority of the Order favored Soresu because of its focus against blaster wielding opponents. So its illogical to think the era would be the best at lightsaber combat. The majority never faced a lightsaber in their lives.

Personally I think that the idea of the PT Jedi being the best is horseshit, since the very point of the Prequels is that the Jedi sucked ass.

Indeed, which applies more for the TOR-era than the PT-era, since they have experience fighting actual lightsaber-wielding opponents, both in the Great War, the Cold War and the war in TOR. Whereas the PT-era does not, since as you say most of their fighting was against retarded droids. And since we're talking about lightsaber prowess....."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I love this sweeping generalization.

Which came straight from George. Twice.

And, you know. thousands vs millions

It's completely possible that TOR era>PT era. But that doesn't take away that the PT era has the best individual hard-hitters

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And, you know. thousands vs millions

I don't know. What does that mean?

Neph, the point of the prequels was that the jedi were actually well prepared to do direct battle with the sith, they just weren't prepared to be politically out-smarted by one.

The idea that the PT era was the prime of the jedi order is not retarded. Yoda makes it very clear in the ROTS novel that they had spent all those years hardening themselves to do battle. There are other eras that have more experience in actually fighting sith, but this does not automatically make them better. For example, even in RL, a person who grew-up fighting a lot can lose to someone who has never been in an actual fist fight but has been trained harder to fight. Likewise, a person who has trained hard to fight can lose to someone who hasn't trained as hard but has actually been in a lot of fights. There's no guarantee either way, as it all depends on who's better. In this case, Lucas considers the PT era as the prime, so perhaps they have been trained harder and better which beats out the experience of other eras.

Well said. It's commensurate with Luke's thoughts in The Book of Sith: that the Jedi were toppled by Palpatine "at their most powerful" makes their defeat all the more astounding and potent.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, the point of the prequels was that the jedi were actually well prepared to do direct battle with the sith, they just weren't prepared to be politically out-smarted by one.

No, it was that the Jedi Order was out of touch and stagnant, which is why they failed to stop so many worlds from seceding, failed to stop the machinations of the Sith, failed to stop public opinion from turning against them, failed to stop their order from being extinguished by Order 66 and failed to stop the rise of Darth Vader.

There's no themetic point that indicates the Jedi were supposed to be militarily proficient but politically weak. In fact the opposite is true. The Jedi had their connection to the Force blunted and sources indicate that due to the lack of lightsaber wielding opponents the Jedi moved away from lightsaber combat and towards forms suited to dealing with blasters or that were easy to learn (Soresu and Niman). The Jedi are shown to be inferior to the Sith in battle, so I don't see where you are getting that from. Maul fights two Jedi at once and Obi-Wan only kills him through luck. As does Dooku beat two Jedi at once, only being defeated by Yoda and DarkSide Anakin. Yoda loses to Sidious. The thing that really cinches the idea that the PT Jedi were supposed to suck though is the Geonosis battle were they get cut to pieces by mere droids. We see there that despite your claims the Jedi are not militarily uber.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The idea that the PT era was the prime of the jedi order is not retarded. Yoda makes it very clear in the ROTS novel that they had spent all those years hardening themselves to do battle.

Which is entirely contradicted by the sources indicating that the Jedi had moved away from learning strict lightsaber dueling forms.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There are other eras that have more experience in actually fighting sith, but this does not automatically make them better.

The concept is more logical than that an order almost solely fighting droids and blasters would be the best at lightsaber fighting.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
For example, even in RL, a person who grew-up fighting a lot can lose to someone who has never been in an actual fist fight but has been trained harder to fight.

Which, again, is contradicted by the fact that the PT Jedi trained to fight blasters, not lightsabers. Makashi was a rare form for a reason.

And none of that owes to weakness as swordsmen.

I didn't say it did. I was correcting Sidious 66 on what the "theme" of the prequels was. Nothing indicates that the Jedi were supposed to be amazing fighters in the movies.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say it did. I was correcting Sidious 66 on what the "theme" of the prequels was.

You didn't really correct him, though. His interpretation of the prequels' theme is commensurate with Lucas and a number of EU sources. The Jedi were absolutely failures in the prequels... but their skill with a lightsaber had little to do with it. They were conquered through deception and manipulation, not outright force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nothing indicates that the Jedi were supposed to be amazing fighters in the movies.

Well, nothing except for George claiming that the prequels were the prime of the Jedi. Twice.

The Jedi were not failures. Sidious just outsmarted them. Speaks for Sidious imo rather then the Jedi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You didn't really correct him, though. His interpretation of the prequels' theme is commensurate with Lucas and a number of EU sources. The Jedi were absolutely failures in the prequels... but their skill with a lightsaber had little to do with it. They were conquered through deception and manipulation, not outright force.

He said that the 'point' of the prequels was that the Jedi were supposed to be very well prepared to directly fight the Sith. This is not true, and I was saying what I believe was the actual 'point' of the Jedi Orders depiction in the movies, which has nothing to do with them being good at fighting.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
The Jedi were not failures. Sidious just outsmarted them. Speaks for Sidious imo rather then the Jedi.

Meh. I think the PT is, at it's heart, a tragedy. And not just Anakin's. The Jedi mishandled everything: their blind loyalty to the Republic, their mistreatment of Anakin, their political game with Palpatine, etc.

They're not stupid, but they did fail. And on many levels.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He said that the 'point' of the prequels was that the Jedi were supposed to be very well prepared to directly fight the Sith. This is not true, and I was saying what I believe was the actual 'point' of the Jedi Orders depiction in the movies, which has nothing to do with them being good at fighting.

Actually, it is true, which is why the Palpatine doesn't conquer the Jedi barehanded and through naked force. That Maul, Dooku, Sidious, and Vader all manage to beat plenty of them doesn't change that. I mean, hell, plenty of Sith kill Jedi in TOR; does that mean that the Jedi of that era were ill-equipped or prepared to kill Sith? No.

Oh really, please show me a scene where this is hinted at or explained in the movies. Because no, the Jedi are not depicted as amazing combatants in the movies. I fact, if Sidious had not supplied the clone army, the Seps would have annihilated the Jedi and the Republic, starting on Geonosis where the Jedi are shown to be fvcked in a direct confrontation with the droids.

The Jedi in TOR are beating the Sith.

I definitely have a problem with "prime of the jedi" referring to combat prowess, since the sith have been gone for close to 1,000 years.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh really, please show me a scene where this is hinted at or explained in the movies. Because no, the Jedi are not depicted as amazing combatants in the movies.

According to whom?

By this logic, TOR-era Sith must be similarly unimpressive since they're rugby tackled by random mooks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I fact, if Sidious had not supplied the clone army, the Seps would have annihilated the Jedi and the Republic, starting on Geonosis where the Jedi are shown to be fvcked.

That the Jedi would have lost to the amassed ranks of the CIS does not preclude the idea that they are amazing combatants.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi in TOR are beating the Sith.

But the Jedi do lose to Sith, do they not? By your logic, they must be ill-equipped to contend with the Sith simply by virtue of the fact that they lose battles.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom?

By this logic, TOR-era Sith must be similarly unimpressive since they're rugby tackled by random mooks.

According to no-one. I don't have to prove that they were not shown to be shown so, you have to prove that they were if you want to argue that. I can't recall any scene which would indicate the Jedi were being presented as that impressive a fighting force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That the Jedi would have lost to the amassed ranks of the CIS does not preclude the idea that they are amazing combatants.

It sure doesn't support the idea that they were though! And it does imply that they were sub-par. When you show someone losing, the general implication is that they're losers, not winners.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But the Jedi do lose to Sith, do they not? By your logic, they must be ill-equipped to contend with the Sith simply by virtue of the fact that they lose battles.

No, since my logic is that the Jedi are primarily shown to lose. In a movie, you have to pick your scenes carefully due to limited screen time. By showing the Jedi as being primarily inferior and as not standing out, those ideas are conveyed to the audience.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know. What does that mean?

It means the TOR era's Jedi Order consists of millions, while the PT Jedi Order, ten-thousand sharp.

And what does that mean (other than that the TOR order was leagues superior to the PT one, of course)?

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to no-one. I don't have to prove that they were not shown to be shown so, you have to prove that they were if you want to argue that. I can't recall any scene which would indicate the Jedi were being presented as that impressive a fighting force.

I'd say the fact that they manage to kill as many droids as they do is highly impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It sure doesn't support the idea that they were though! And it does imply that they were sub-par. When you show someone losing, the general implication is that they're losers, not winners.

Only if we think superficially. By your logic, the fact that the Persians killed all the Spartans in 300 means that the Spartans were sub-par warriors.

That the Jedi would have been defeated by a combination of great technology, overwhelming numbers and firepower does not preclude the fact that they are great warriors.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, since my logic is that the Jedi are primarily shown to lose. In a movie, you have to pick your scenes carefully due to limited screen time. By showing the Jedi as being primarily inferior and as not standing out, those ideas are conveyed to the audience.

The Empire is primarily shown to lose in the OT. I guess they're primarily inferior and mediocre in general?

The Jedi are "primarily shown to lose" because this is a film series in which they lose. The fact that they lose does not mean they're bad warriors.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd say the fact that they manage to kill as many droids as they do is highly impressive.

The gungans killed more. :T

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if we think superficially. By your logic, the fact that the Persians killed all the Spartans in 300 means that the Spartans were sub-par warriors.

That the Jedi would have been defeated by a combination of great technology, overwhelming numbers and firepower does not preclude the fact that they are great warriors.

And if that were all we were shown I would agree. Except we have a whole movie in which the Spartans slaughter the Persians and they achieve their primary goal in the end. In contrast we have the Jedi getting buttfcked from all sides and Coleman Trevor getting killed by Jango Fett.

I did not say it precludes it. It can still be the case. But it certainly does not indicate it. So far you haven't shown anything backing up the idea that the Jedi were depicted as uber warriors in the PT. As to the scene, what I am saying is that it paints a picture of them not being great warriors. Going off that scene the Jedi come out as looking unimpressive considering how shit those droids were depicted as and the fact that 1 or 2 Jedi are supposed to be above entire squads of droids. They can still be great, but they are not depicted as such in that scene.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Empire is primarily shown to lose in the OT. I guess they're primarily inferior and mediocre in general?

The Jedi are "primarily shown to lose" because this is a film series in which they lose. The fact that they lose does not mean they're bad warriors.

Uh, yes? You do know where the phrase 'Stormtrooper accuracy' comes from, right?

I'm not saying it means it, I'm saying it implies it more than it is implied that they were awesome, which they were not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The gungans killed more. :T

Where?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And if that were all we were shown I would agree. Except we have a whole movie in which the Spartans slaughter the Persians and they achieve their primary goal in the end. In contrast we have the Jedi getting buttfcked from all sides and Coleman Trevor getting killed by Jango Fett.

But that's not what you said. You said that when you show someone losing, the implication is that they're losers, not winners. Since the original 300 Spartans died, they're clearly sub-par combatants.

And we saw the Jedi mow down plenty of droids before dying. Given that you constantly credit Jace's tackling of various fully trained Sith Lords to his skill rather than their lack of it, why on earth should I accept Trebor's death at Jango's hands as anything else?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I did not say it precludes it. It can still be the case. But it certainly does not indicate it. So far you haven't shown anything backing up the idea that the Jedi were depicted as uber warriors in the PT. As to the scene, what I am saying is that it paints a picture of them not being great warriors. Going off that scene the Jedi come out as looking unimpressive considering how shit those droids were depicted as and the fact that 1 or 2 Jedi are supposed to be above entire squads of droids. They can still be great, but they are not depicted as such in that scene.

The Jedi perform quite well in the movies. The fact that they were going to probably die at the hands of Dooku's legions of droids doesn't suggest that they're sub-par warriors.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes? You do know where the phrase 'Stormtrooper accuracy' comes from, right?

They must have inherited it from the Sith troops who attack during TOR's "Return" trailer. That bounty hunter walked right into their line of fire and smoked them all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not saying it means it, I'm saying it implies it more than it is implied that they were awesome, which they were not.

All that is implied is that the Jedi aren't invulnerable. Which they aren't. But subpar warriors? Nah.

The fact is, the Jedi were shown to lose to the droids and would have all died if not for Sidious bailing them out with the clones.

Martially prepared to fight the Sith my ass.

The same sith who could also be killed by fodder soldiers

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact is, the Jedi were shown to lose to the droids and would have all died if not for Sidious bailing them out with the clones.

Martially prepared to fight the Sith my ass.

The fact is, that the Jedi were shown to lose to the droids and would have all died if not for Sidious bailing them out with the clones doesn't preclude the notion that they were martially prepared to fight the Sith and your ass.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where?

TPM.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But that's not what you said. You said that when you show someone losing, the implication is that they're losers, not winners. Since the original 300 Spartans died, they're clearly sub-par combatants.

And we saw the Jedi mow down plenty of droids before dying. Given that you constantly credit Jace's tackling of various fully trained Sith Lords to his skill rather than their lack of it, why on earth should I accept Trebor's death at Jango's hands as anything else?

Implication, yes. Which can be counteracted by the Spartans factually being shown to be ****ing badasses who anally raped the Persians for like a solid hour of movie. This was not shown in AotC. The Jedi got pwned by inferior troops through their own ineptitude.

Not really. They don't do that well. What, was Jango timing the shots through skill? Was he pulling the trigger faster than Trebor could keep up with? :snort:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Jedi perform quite well in the movies. The fact that they were going to probably die at the hands of Dooku's legions of droids doesn't suggest that they're sub-par warriors.

And again, it doesn't suggest they were good either, which is what I said.

You said the Jedi were shown to be too strong to be defeated through force of arms, which is why Palps did it through deception. This was specifically shown to not be the case.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They must have inherited it from the Sith troops who attack during TOR's "Return" trailer. That bounty hunter walked right into their line of fire and smoked them all.

That wasn't a bounty hunter.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All that is implied is that the Jedi aren't invulnerable. Which they aren't. But subpar warriors? Nah.

False, it does imply them to be subpar warriors. Tactically they made and insane and arrogant attack, somehow not seeing the legions of droids surrounding the building they all grouped up in and ran right to the center of. Their defeat was a product of idiocy and overconfidence. Furthermore, the fact is that the droids were depicted as incompetent weaklings throughout all 3 movies. Them losing to an army of them paints the Jedi as utter jokes. A fighting force beaten by comic relief is not one we're supposed to see as impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
TPM.

Who says they kill more?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Implication, yes. Which can be counteracted by the Spartans factually being shown to be ****ing badasses who anally raped the Persians for like a solid hour of movie. This was not shown in AotC. The Jedi got pwned by inferior troops through their own ineptitude.

Not really. They don't do that well. What, was Jango timing the shots through skill? Was he pulling the trigger faster than Trebor could keep up with? :snort:

They do quite well given how terribly they're outnumbered and outgunned.



False, sir. I said that the Jedi were prepared to fight the Sith, which is why Palpatine defeated them through deception. I never said they could win every fight against any enemy. They're clearly not unbeatable.



Ok.



I never claimed that their decision was a tactically sound one (it wasn't). Still doesn't preclude the notion that they are excellent fighters.

Yup, everything Temp said.

I can't address you point by point at the moment, Neph, but I don't really see why I should. You haven't properly addressed mines. All you're doing is repeating the same argument, that they aren't as good because they lack experience in actually fighting sith, and ignoring my example on how experience doesn't automatically mean better.

I don't expect you to get to every single point, but at least get to the ones that matter. You're just arguing because you don't like the idea of the PT era being the best, which is fine if you don't like it, but you haven't exactly pointed out how Lucas' labeling the PT era as the prime is contradicting. Being taken by surprise, or being heavily outnumbered doesn't contradict anything.

He's just a big fathead.

Erm, I very much did respond to your points and did not ignore your example. I pointed out that your example is flawed because the Jedi were not training to fight lightsabers. You argued they could be superior due to training more, an entirely faulty argument because they were not training as much in the area we are discussing, lightsaber combat. In fact, due to having to, you know, actually ****ing do lightsaber fighting, I'd argue that the TOR era would train considerably more in that area than the PT era, who as I said, were noted to NOT BE TRAINING IN FORMS DEDICATED TO LIGHTSABER COMBAT. <--- bolded so you don't miss it this time.

I am not arguing it just because I don't like it. That accusation offends me. I'm arguing it because it makes logical sense.

According to Yoda they were training to fight lightsabers. They're sparring matches also suggest it. Do you have a source that says they weren't training? Or are you just going by what you didn't see onscreen?

And yes we are talking about lightsaber to lightsaber combat, so why are you comparing that to defending against numerous droids opening fire all at at?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
According to Yoda they were training to fight lightsabers. They're sparring matches also suggest it. Do you have a source that says they weren't training? Or are you just going by what you didn't see onscreen?

And yes we are talking about lightsaber to lightsaber combat, so why are you comparing that to defending against numerous droids opening fire all at at?

That isn't what Yoda says, and he could easily be exaggerating in what he actually did say (something about preparing for the final fight or whatever).

"After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive." - RotS novel. Indicating Soresu is the most common lightsaber form.

"Fewer padawans have elected to study form II in the years following the battle of Ruusan, because the odds of encountering a lightsaber wielding enemy is now close to zero." - The Jedi Path. By the time of the PT Makashi was extremely rare for this reason.

Moose also mentioned that Niman was widely used. I think this all paints a clear picture myself. Jedi were not electing to study the form focused on lightsaber combat and instead the two forms least aligned towards it were the most widespread. That Soresu was more common even than Shii Cho speaks volumes about where their focuses lay imo.

It was a tangential discussion with Tempest about their portrayal etc.

The quote from The Jedi Path is the only one that is helping your argument.

As for what Yoda said, I don't remember word for word what he said and I don't have access to the novel at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Yoda stated pretty clearly that they were training re-fight the last sith war, or something like that, which involved lightsaber to lightsaber combat. We have also seen PT jedi sparring each other.

"The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war."

Except we know its not true since the Jedi stopped training in Makashi since they would not be fighting lightsaber wielding enemies anymore. I think its another case of the RotS novel being woefully detached from canon.

Plus Yodas opinion is vague in what he could mean and is faulty as heck.

This is all sorts of hilarious. So the Jedi were at their peak in an era without any enemies to fight besides blaster-toting enemies (of which many killed them in Genoshia). As of AotC, Obi-Wan Kenobi barely held his own with Jango Fett, despite being a Force user. Jedi are noted in PT era movies and novels as not being drastically more powerful than martial-era Jedi such as those from TOTJ, TOR, and KoTOR. If anything, a recurring them in the EU works is that the Jedi wre woefully unprepared for war in general and were not well suited to it. Mace Windu laments this in Shatterpoint. Then we have Kit Fisto, one of the most martial and "wild" combatants of his era, early in the war, soundly defeated by neophyte Ventress in seconds. Not minutes, seconds. Obi-Wan, shortly after, barely won their encounter, and in later scenarios she's shown chewing through multiple jedi masters, not mere padawans. Then there's Maul, who is head and shoulders above all but the tip-top level Jedi, Opress who is a virtual beast, Dooku who is pretty much superior to everyone but Yoda and Sidious in saber technique and force mastery. And Sidious himself chews through Jedi so stupid they can't even raise their arms after going to his office, ready to fight, and then seeing him arm himself and fly over to them (which btw, is the dumbest ****ing thing about RotS besides killing younglings and should never ever be considered anything but GL being a complete tard in decision making).

The bottom line is that the PT era Jedi are 'not' martially superior to any other era. While they do grow during the Clone Wars (which is years of continuous fighting), the truth is that prior to that, most were barely of note. Masters were more likely to be mere diplomats or scholars because that's what the Golden Age of the Jedi implies - peace, knowledge, equilibrium. It does not imply Jedi 'badassery'. And a GL blanket statement does not suffice; he's explicitly said he doesn't read EU and he could give two flying ****s what happens to it. Therefore, in EU context, his ignorance is not your excuseto blindly adhere to what reaffirms your bias.

Also, Exar Kun wins. QED.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. They don't do that well. What, was Jango timing the shots through skill? Was he pulling the trigger faster than Trebor could keep up with? :snort
Trebor somehow deflected Jango's shot into his own shoulder.
01:52:28.957 time
http://i.imgur.com/OLRWPCT.jpg frame 161812
http://i.imgur.com/4pHTuip.jpg frame 161813
Up till this point, he deflected everything fired at him.

Mind you, a Grand Master in the early TOR era, in the middle of a Sith war, was killed by a bounty hunter.

Kit losing to Ventress after what seemed to be a pretty intense duel, is much worse.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Trebor somehow deflected Jango's shot into his own shoulder.
01:52:28.957 time
http://i.imgur.com/OLRWPCT.jpg frame 161812
http://i.imgur.com/4pHTuip.jpg frame 161813
Up till this point, he deflected everything fired at him.

Wow.

Thats some bad jediing.

Have to say both sides are bringing up some good points here.

The AOTC novel states that Dooku's fencing style was an old one which had been forgotten by the Jedi, and proved it's clear superiority against Kenobi.

But then that ROTS quote from Yoda does sound like the Jedi were all combat ready and would have won is they were fighting the Sith in the more traditional way.

So carry on debating..

Either Kenobi or Dooku has mused in a source regarding their fight with each other in AotC how the Jedi practiced to be better at deflecting blaster bolts. I'll try and look for it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is all sorts of hilarious.

It is, but we try to be polite and not laugh in your face. uhuh

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So the Jedi were at their peak in an era without any enemies to fight besides blaster-toting enemies (of which many killed them in Genoshia).

Per Lucas, yes. And it's Geonosis, dammit!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As of AotC, Obi-Wan Kenobi barely held his own with Jango Fett, despite being a Force user.

You mean when Obi-Wan was under strict orders to bring Fett back to Coruscant for interrogation? And Jango Fett who was one of the galaxy's most renowned fighters, equipped with full body armor and armed to the teeth with dual blasters, trip wire, missiles, and a full-fledged starship?

Conversely, one could point to Jace Malcom flooring half a dozen Sith Lords on Alderaan and holding his own against Malgus, ostensibly one of Vitiate's finest. Or one could point to the mighty Revan who struggled immensely with members of Vitiate's Royal Guard.

Force users struggling against Forceless mooks is not the exclusive province of the prequel era.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Jedi are noted in PT era movies and novels as not being drastically more powerful than martial-era Jedi such as those from TOTJ, TOR, and KoTOR.

Where?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If anything, a recurring them in the EU works is that the Jedi wre woefully unprepared for war in general and were not well suited to it. Mace Windu laments this in Shatterpoint.

The Jedi's aptitude for commanding armies notwithstanding, I don't see how this has any bearing on their combat technique and martial arts prowess.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Then we have Kit Fisto, one of the most martial and "wild" combatants of his era, early in the war, soundly defeated by neophyte Ventress in seconds. Not minutes, seconds. Obi-Wan, shortly after, barely won their encounter, and in later scenarios she's shown chewing through multiple jedi masters, not mere padawans.

Which speaks to Ventress's enormous natural talent, the expediency of the dark side's benefits, and Dooku's skill as an instructor.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Then there's Maul, who is head and shoulders above all but the tip-top level Jedi,

Maul is consistently referenced as one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith Lords of all time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Opress who is a virtual beast,

Again, such is Opress's inordinate level of natural potency and the expediency of the dark side. He's not more skilled than the Jedi he faces; he's simply more powerful.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dooku who is pretty much superior to everyone but Yoda and Sidious in saber technique and force mastery.

With Dooku also being a legendary duelist and noted to be one of the greatest and most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year history.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And Sidious himself chews through Jedi so stupid they can't even raise their arms after going to his office, ready to fight, and then seeing him arm himself and fly over to them (which btw, is the dumbest ****ing thing about RotS besides killing younglings and should never ever be considered anything but GL being a complete tard in decision making).

The horrific choreography is conceded, but the intent behind their quick defeat has been made explicitly clear by Lucas: you need to be Mace or Yoda to even compete with Palpatine. Everyone else is fodder.

That has less to do with the skill of the rank-and-file Jedi than it does with how powerful and skilled Palpatine is.

Most Jedi of The Old Republic would melt before Vitiate like butter in a microwave; does that mean their collective ranks are similarly incompetent or unremarkable?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The bottom line is that the PT era Jedi are 'not' martially superior to any other era.

Lucas says otherwise.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
While they do grow during the Clone Wars (which is years of continuous fighting), the truth is that prior to that, most were barely of note.

They grow more experienced during the Clone Wars, yes, but there's no indication that their prowess underwent a radical improvement.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Masters were more likely to be mere diplomats or scholars because that's what the Golden Age of the Jedi implies - peace, knowledge, equilibrium. It does not imply Jedi 'badassery'.

False. Both times Lucas refers to the Jedi as "the golden age" and "the prime" of the Jedi, the declarations are issued in a militant context.

What's more, Qui-Gon in The Phantom Menace states that Maul was "well trained in the Jedi arts." Contextually, 'negotiation' and 'peace' are as inappropriate as finger-painting and dancing.

Like it or not, lightsaber combat is a province of the Jedi order and is considered one of their "arts."

Accordingly, it makes sense that in the Jedi's golden age, such a crucial discipline would be at its peak.

(Note: this is the same exact logic you ascribe to the golden age of the Sith, so it should be very easy for you to accept.)

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And a GL blanket statement does not suffice; he's explicitly said he doesn't read EU and he could give two flying ****s what happens to it. Therefore, in EU context, his ignorance is not your excuseto blindly adhere to what reaffirms your bias.

George's blanket statement suffices because G-canon remains higher and more important than C-canon. He doesn't have to be well-informed of the EU's developments. He doesn't have to impartially evaluate the assembled evidence before reaching a conclusion. His is an authority of whims and the EU, by its own policy, must simply bow and acquiesce. They're not partners, they're not equals. George's creative wishes in this context is outright superior; what the EU has to say is merely subordinate.

It's nice to see you back by the way. Our battles will be the stuff of legend.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-7534-Maniacal-Laugh-GIFs-n314.gif

Revan didn't struggle with the Imperial guard, he cut him down in seconds. It was Meetra and Scourge who struggled with the rest of the guards while Revan confronted the Emperor.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either Kenobi or Dooku has mused in a source regarding their fight with each other in AotC how the Jedi practiced to be better at deflecting blaster bolts. I'll try and look for it.

Yep.

"Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacks seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another, with a slight parry or dodge, seeming barely to move. For while Obi-Wan and most of the Jedi were sword fighters, Count Dooku was a fencer, following an older fighting style, one more effective against weapons like lightsabers than against projectile weapons like blasters. The Jedi on the whole had abandoned that old fighting style, considering it almost irrelevant against the enemies of the present galaxy, but Dooku had always held stubbornly to it, considering it among the highest of fighting disciplines."

Again, pretty conclusive imo.

Jedi canonically grew "out of touch" of their ways during the so-called era of peace. Dooku himself noted this and eventually lost hope in Jedi ways.

GL's statements are always about his works; he doesn't represents EU (by his own admission) so his statements are not valid for EU. Simple.

Jedi Order have history of both successes and failures; PT era events fall in the list of its failures.

Lucas' statements were off hand and don't mean anything in my opinion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is, but we try to be polite and not laugh in your face. uhuh

Love you too, babe.



I was pretty tired when I posted that and did not proofread. Mahbad.



Good observation. Obi-Wan did indeed need to apprehend Jango and the bounty hunter is perhaps one of the most dangerous men in space. However, Obi-Wan at this point is fairly indicative of an above average approaching top tier Jedi. The Cestus Deception explicitly states he's a peer of Kit Fisto at this junction, and The Approaching Storm which immediately proceeds the movie shows Anakin, Barriss Offee, Obi-Wan and Luminara non-lethally holding off a small army of muggles.

The implication here is that Jedi of the PT era are not head and shoulders above anything else we've seen. They depict usually less Force powers than other eras (examples - Battle Meditation, Force severing) and their martial abilities, while getting better in the war, are again second-rate. They are diplomats. This is explicit in TCW novels left and right. Genosis is a ringing endorsement of how the new Order is complacent, having been untested against Sith or schisms for a thousand years.

Prior to this we had what? TOR, the Dark Brotherhood of the Sith wars, the Jedi Civil War, Mandalorian War, TOTJ, GAotS. Conflict makes warriors become high level warriors, not just idle practice. One novel (which exactly at the minute I forget. Perhaps Dark Rendezvous) notes that the average Jedi gets thousands of hours of saber training against peers.

But what is the quality of that training? In an era when the 'Diplomat's Form' is the norm, where the best defensive Jedi in the Order can barely keep ahead of Anakin Skywalker, could never hope to defeat Mace or Dooku or Yoda or Sidious, where the blaster bolt or vibroknife kills more Jedi than the lightsaber has for generations... That's the quality of training we're seeing here. It's why at Genosis, the Jedi are shockingly destroyed. And later on they grow to adapt and the survivors become hardier.

The point here is that this in conjunction with other observations, both by characters themselves who are reliable sources (Windu's observation) and EU feats/movie feats indicates the Jedi are not 'better' than any other era at this point and may actually be worse due to complacency and lack of conflict. This is the same reason why you would not assume a kendo practitioner today is a better swordsman than an actual war-hardened samurai, even if the former had a few thousand hours' training. He might be formidable, but he is lacking that intrinsic experience only true combat can give. And the kendo practitioner doesn't practice every day because his life depends on it; he practices because it is custom or hobby. The samurai masters his weapons because if he doesn't, he will die.



As noted, I don't recall Revan struggling much if at all in this case, but on the point of Jace Malcom I'll reserve judgment (I have not seen this myself. A video would be awesome).



Pick up The Approaching Storm and start reading all the way until you hit Labyrinth of Evil. Then compare and contrast all of the Tales comics and Old Republic media.



Considering death by lightsaber combat was a low low priority after the Sith being thought extinct and blaster bolt deflection being key for safety in their duties as peacekeepers (note that term for later), a lot of Jedi lost their lives in the melee. This does not bode well for their abilities, either in the Force or martially. If you want to argue the opposite, please elaborate.



Except that by herself, Ventress could barely handle Anakin and Obi-Wan, and she had no chance in hell against Yoda or Mace Windu, or obviously Dooku. Ventress' threshold for asskicking starts just above Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto, which probably includes 98% of the Jedi we've ever seen or heard of in the PT era. That's a huge sample. And her training was mostly self taught. You expect me to believe that the "best Jedi evah" crapped their pants and died horribly to an exceptional neophyte? Or could you at least concede that the Order was severely lacking points in Kill Sith with Saburz?



Yes, his dismantling of Qui-Gon and Anoon pretty much solidifies his aptitude within the confines of his era. His Force mastery is not approaching Master level, but his saber work is pretty top-notch. Maul, like Ventress, could probably obliterate 98% of the Jedi Order as well. While Sith are noticeably stronger than Jedi in most cases, it's a lot easier to count the few that can beat them rather than the multitudes of PT Jedi completely unprepared for their onslaught. Emphasis on 'unprepared'.



I accept this.



Keyword 'Jedi'. Not Sith. Funny, I hadn't noticed that distinction until now.



Parrot GL, sir. PARROT!



Actually, Kit Fisto (who is criminally underrepresented in the scene) is somewhat of a badass in novels and the series. He's Obi-Wan's peer if nothing else, and Obi-Wan's inner dialogue suggests perhaps more, at least just after AotC. If Kit Fisto is an accurate representation of an 'exceptional' Jedi, and his resume includes being utterly destroyed by Ventress in a few moves and destroyed by Palpatine in no time at all, how does this prove your argument?

Or should we use the top tier Jedi as a baseline? Like, Mace Windu versus every Jedi outside of the PT era?



Actually, comparing Vitiate to RotS Sidious is a false analogy. Vitiate has displayed disgusting amounts of Force use, is far older, and is described as something of a Force anomaly. Besides his affinity for Force Nom, the fact remains that Vitiate is outside of RotS Sidious' league in the same way Obi-Wan is out of Sidious'. But I know this idea hurts you, so don't think on it too hard.



What is it about 'context' and 'GL in his own words disavows knowledge of or care of EU' do you not understand?



Really? Just Obi-Wan's bladework in RotS is improved over AotC, let alone his Force use. Not that it mattered against Dooku, but to say that a guy can fight against robots and dark siders for three years and not be 'better' is incredibly misleading.

...

Stupid character limits. Second half incoming.

1. The Jedi are 'peacekeepers'. A Golden Age of cops would not indicate that they are suddenly Spec ops. It would indicate that they are as an institution the best cops they've ever been. Considering the Jedi had a thousand years of 'not fighting Sith' on their resume, they were in a golden era of peace by comparison.

2. GL doesn't read about/care about EU. This is not the movie-only forums. You must take EU into context when debating here universally to remain consistent. Otherwise, you can't use DE Sids' anymore or novel quotes about him as they are no longer G canon and thus irrelevant. Also, Disney is rewriting post-RotJ and Sidious turns into SSJ Sidious and blows up Alderaan with his kamehameha, but only because it shot first.

3. The Golden Age of Sith indicates their dominance, their mastery of the Dark Side which itself implies power (it's in their bloody creed) and their leader had an iron grip on the throne. His spirit coming back was enough to make Luke Skywalker crap his pants. Oh, and the amulets and baubles they left in their wake turned people like Ulic and Exar Kun from young rogue Jedi into the greatest threats to the Jedi, who outnumbered them in the thousands.




Yes, lightsaber combat is a province of the Jedi Order. They train in it excessively. I noted as much. But it's also noted that the specialty of fighting lightsaber duels against deadly opponents is exceedingly rare. The only practitioners of note include Dooku (a dedicated Makashi master and something of a prodigy in his own time) and iirc, Shaak Ti, who is of no consequence comparatively. Hell, the origination of the styles flat out states that no one practices Makashi, which is the refinement of saber dueling and was the preferred form when the Sith existed. Which, reference check, was from about the Second Great Schism to the Battle of Ruusan.

Unless you want to argue that half-assed mastery of blaster bolt deflection is the peak of Jedi saber art, than I don't see your point. Although if you are arguing that, RotJ Luke is clearly at least Knight level.




No, it's not. For the same reason the Golden Age of Rome would not be the Golden Age of the Vatican. For the same reason the Golden Age of the Third German Reich would not be the same Golden Age of Belgium. Both Orders are not so similar in function and philosophy that you can apply a blanket statement like "Golden Age universally means best fighter", especially given that the Jedi are shown to be complacent, average at best, and woefully unable to fight Sith at worst.



So what you're saying to me essentially is that GL is allowed to create paradoxes in EU because of his own forced ignorance, even though his company greenlights content with his express approval?

So like, if he said Dark Empire was non-canon, Sidious would lose most of his EU battles, wouldn't he? Wait, he did pretty much say that. He said SW "is the story of Anakin Skywalker" and it begins and ends with his rise to Jedi-dom and his fall and redemption, followed by death. GL is concerned with, besides making enough money to get his turkey throat changed into something more human, elaborating on Anakin's hero cycle. That's it. He allows EU because it'd be suicidal not to, since it makes tons of dosh.

No, IF you intend to argue within the context of "EU is valid sources for argument", THEN you must agree that GL invalidates his own sweeping generalizations (those that impact any works outside of his immediate G-canon and do not infringe upon it, like say the alternate ending of RotS video game which infringes horribly and is an obvious exception) by virtue of his divorced attitude.

Hell, he even said "it's its own world". The EU world includes G-canon, and is based on it, but it is not itself GL's creation. End of debate.



Absolutely!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/460/873/4b3.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As noted, I don't recall Revan struggling much if at all in this case, but on the point of Jace Malcom I'll reserve judgment (I have not seen this myself. A video would be awesome).

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1.50

Was it only two? I thought it was more. Ah well.

Thats because you are full of stupid.

Then I shat it out and here you are. stoned

I wish I can put more into this discussion, it's getting interesting. I'll try as much as I can when I find time.

Other than that, you're doing a bit too much lowballing, SM. It seems that everyone who argues against the PT era are the ones who do most of the lowballing. For instance, why is Maul being better than most of his era a bad thing? Kun has shown to be more capable than Maul with rare powers such as sorcery and whatnot, but what makes you think Kun is a more skilled combatant than Maul? Maul has been noted as being among the most skilled and well trained fighters in the mythos, on top of having pretty beastly TK.

As for Kit's loss to Ventress, where do you get that she beat him in seconds, when the passage barely focused on their duel, but instead focused more on Kenobi fighting with her minions? Obi Wan's impatience and considering slaughtering the thugs with his saber in order to speed up the process to help Kit seemed to suggest that Kit's duel with Ventress wasn't as short as you are suggesting. The hyperbolic description of the fight seemed to suggest Kit and Ventress were fighting equally until Ventress, "at last," penetrated Kit's defense with a kick.

This is why I enjoy The Moose's company. He's such a staunch opponent of the film era, but he's so damn charming.

It will wound me to crush him utterly beneath my heel.

stop using those fancy words