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Sabers
Force
All Out

lol, 3 threads in the span of like an hour? pace yourself

anyways, galen in all most likely.

Marek in all.

Shan.

Lol really?

For some reason I have the idea stuck in my head that Shan is supposed to be a beast, like Yoda tier. Not sure why-

Marek wins per evident feats though.

lol, shan yoda tier? nah.

Honestly, I don't think so. In terms of speed, Vader has more impressive feats than Shan. They both have impressive force feats, but vader most likely has the advantage here too. In terms of sabers, it could go either way. I can agree that she'd beat shaak ti tho.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Honestly, I don't think so. In terms of speed, Vader has more impressive feats than Shan. They both have impressive force feats, but vader most likely has the advantage here too. In terms of sabers, it could go either way. I can agree that she'd beat shaak ti tho.
Vader (OT)? Are you out of your mind?

No he isn't.

yeah, because all you seem to notice are the movies, right? Vader has collapsed entire structures/a cathedral with his force ability, has moved so fast that a force user couldn't even see him, and has defeated 4 jedi masters whilst he was still getting used to his suit. he was also described by palpatine as the most powerful force user he's ever met (most likely in terms of potential/raw power, as most of his hamperings were psychological)

When did Palpatine say that?

In the dark lord novel by Luceno.

I've read that twice. He never said that.

I don't remember where it is, but from palpatine's viewpoint, he thought he could "re-awaken" his potential, if he got over his psychological hamperings, which he, sadly, never did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Marek in all.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
yeah, because all you seem to notice are the movies, right?
No! I will contest mindless wanking of PT/OT characters at any point.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ Vader has collapsed entire structures/a cathedral with his force ability,
How big is this structure?

Shan shattered an extremely heavy "rock formation" in to tiny pieces with her power; that "rock formation" would have weighed hundreds of tons. To give you an idea, this rock weighs 340 tons. The "rock formation" which Shan destroyed was seemingly bigger then this one, it was part of a cliff.

Even that large tree which Shan knocked down with a gesture from a single hand would have weighed hundred tons or more; large trees are extremely heavy in real life.

Shan performed the aforementioned feats as a Knight. I am sure that she became more powerful afterwards.

In-fact, after facing Shan on Aldeeran, Malgus defeated a Force-user of Vader's caliber in strength in the Force (That Force-user collapsed two buildings around the position of Malgus with his Force abilities). And Malgus couldn't hold a candle to Shan when she went all out on him.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
has moved so fast that a force user couldn't even see him, and has defeated 4 jedi masters whilst he was still getting used to his suit.
And how competent is this Force-user?

In contrast, Ax was a powerful Force-user who found Shan to be "unbelievably fast." Shan actually is unbelievably fast since she effortlessly dodged attacks of Malgus who is a remarkable lightsaber duelist by all accounts (one of the finest in galactic history not just in claim but in deeds as well since have have struck down other remarkably talented lightsaber duelists).

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
he was also described by palpatine as the most powerful force user he's ever met (most likely in terms of potential/raw power, as most of his hamperings were psychological)
So Vader (OT) is superior to even Yoda? Give me a break.

And show me proof of this claim.

By the way, Sidious regarded Malgus as one of his strongest predecessors with unparalleled accomplishments and feats. He considered Malgus as a role model Sith for Vader to follow.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No he isn't.
I disagree

Satele only destroyed the rock formation due to her previous tutaminis of malgus. an example would be:

"In an instant all physical agony ceased as effectively as if I'd flicked a switch and turned all my pain receptors off. All I was left with was an incredible clarity of mind and a singleness of purpose. I'd dedicated my life to the service of others, to the service of the Force. I would not go out without my duty being fulfilled. I concentrated and employed the greatest Halcyon gift against my enemy.

I sucked the energy out of the Anzati's lightsaber and forced myself to smile as I did so. I tasted blood in my mouth, but that fact elicited no panic. It was inconsequential. More telling was the look of surprise on Tyris' face as his blue blade flickered once, then twice, then went out. I'd drained it of every last joule and let him read in my eyes that he should suddenly be very afraid.

With the energy I'd pulled in I plucked him from the ground in a giant invisible fist. He screamed, I think; at least his mouth worked as if he was screaming. I made the fist convulse once and I felt no resistance as his bones shattered. I let him hang limp in the air for a moment, then hurled him back through the tents to slam him against the dome and a support. I felt a jolt through the Force and saw a blue flash of light, but by then my energy reserves had faded."

BTW, the guy who did this, Nejaa Halcyon, is a very weak at telekinesis.

malgus couldn't hold a candle to shan, what? Malgus would have killed shan, had malcolm not interfered.

Also, re-read my post about vader, Palpatine said that because he still had the potential of the chosen one, just that his psychological hamperings would not allow him to unleash it.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Satele only destroyed the rock formation due to her previous tutaminis of malgus. an example would be:

"In an instant all physical agony ceased as effectively as if I'd flicked a switch and turned all my pain receptors off. All I was left with was an incredible clarity of mind and a singleness of purpose. I'd dedicated my life to the service of others, to the service of the Force. I would not go out without my duty being fulfilled. I concentrated and employed the greatest Halcyon gift against my enemy.

I sucked the energy out of the Anzati's lightsaber and forced myself to smile as I did so. I tasted blood in my mouth, but that fact elicited no panic. It was inconsequential. More telling was the look of surprise on Tyris' face as his blue blade flickered once, then twice, then went out. I'd drained it of every last joule and let him read in my eyes that he should suddenly be very afraid.

With the energy I'd pulled in I plucked him from the ground in a giant invisible fist. He screamed, I think; at least his mouth worked as if he was screaming. I made the fist convulse once and I felt no resistance as his bones shattered. I let him hang limp in the air for a moment, then hurled him back through the tents to slam him against the dome and a support. I felt a jolt through the Force and saw a blue flash of light, but by then my energy reserves had faded."

BTW, the guy who did this, Nejaa Halcyon, is a very weak at telekinesis.
No source confirms that Shan augmented her power by absorbing the energy of the lightsaber. If she could knock down a gigantic tree (possibly weighing 100 tons or more) with a gesture from a single hand while holding an extremely powerful Force-user at bay (Malgus) with another hand; she could pull off that "rock formation" shattering feat with her own power.

Also, Shan could easily make it possible for her to augment her power by absorbing the energy of the lightsaber of her opponent during combat situations.

Besides, Shan have some crazy abilities; she blew apart some hex droids simultaneously with a single gesture. In-fact, in the opening scene of the Hope trailer, when Shan had just landed on the ground, she unleashed some mysterious power which instantly killed 3 Sith warriors simultaneously. Shan is hell of a lot more competent Force-user then Nejaa. God knows what else she have in her arsenal.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
malgus couldn't hold a candle to shan, what? Malgus would have killed shan, had malcolm not interfered.
Yes! But I am referring to the scene when Shan went all out on him. That was when Malgus was utterly outclassed.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, re-read my post about vader, Palpatine said that because he still had the potential of the chosen one, just that his psychological hamperings would not allow him to unleash it.
Sidious may have thought of that but this was not possible. GL himself confirmed that Anakin lost his potential after his major injuries.

A tree weighs over 100 tons?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
A tree weighs over 100 tons?
Trees can weigh hundreds of tons, genius.

The tree which Shan knocked out must be 100 feet tall and several feet wide on trunk.

why wouldn't she be going all out on him in the first place? If Shan has this uber tk ability, why would she use it on only one occasion? Yes, he lost his potential due to his psychological hamperings
Also, talk about cherrypicking, as when Lucas states that sidious is the strongest sith (or lucas-approved sources), you completely disregard them.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
why wouldn't she be going all out on him in the first place? If Shan has this uber tk ability, why would she use it on only one occasion?
She opened up when she found the opportunity to do so.

Even if we are to assume that she used the lightsaber to fuel her power, she could repeat this act in any duel.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, he lost his potential due to his psychological hamperings
Also, talk about cherrypicking, as when Lucas states that sidious is the strongest sith (or lucas-approved sources), you completely disregard them.
GL represents his own works and not EU by his own admission. GL's revelations are valid for his works at least.

Claims about strongest Sith are in EU sources. However, dark side practitioners are not necessarily Sith. Star Wars isn't so black and white in its concepts now; it has many grey shades.

Vader is more machine then a man during OT period. It is obvious that he is limited in the use of the Force in this condition.

So she's NEVER had ample opportunity to unleash a force blast of her own power, ever? She never repeated the act against baras, or anyone else, for that matter

perhaps you're correct, however being eight tenths of the most powerful sith lord in history (I will not argue with you on this point) is vastly impressive, and quite possibly a higher claim than satele has.

^^

Satele isn't much explored in the ways of the Force so I cannot offer many examples.

I don't know what happened in the duel against Baras; I know that it ended in a stalemate though. Baras is also an immensely powerful Force-user by the way.

Also that 80% claim is a "maybe" as well.

And why should we assume that Satele cannot have potential matching that of Palpatine? Even Marek had such potential. I won't be surprised if the list of individuals in this regard is actually BIG.


----

Damn! Largest tree in the world weighs over 6000 tons.

Don't get me wrong, there are quite a few whom POTENTIALLY match palpatine, however there are very few who actually matched his power. Ultimately Satele, while an incredibly powerful jedi, does not have the feats to match emperor palpatine.

^^^

Individuals such as Palpatine, Vitiate and Nihilus stand apart from majority due to their dark side talents. These individuals transformed into unnatural beings, who wouldn't rely on Midichlorian connectivity to function and use the Force.

Satele was immensely strong in the Force in natural form. It won't surprise me if she matched or exceeded the natural potential of Palpatine in the Force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
A tree weighs over 100 tons?

The average weight of an oak tree is 100,000 kg, which translates into about 100 tons if my google-foo is to be believed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Trees can weigh hundreds of tons, genius.

The tree which Shan knocked out must be 100 feet tall and several feet wide on trunk.

100 feet tall????

Think again genius! It was 20 feet tall at maximum.

Yes, but that isn't the comparison we are making, legend. Vader was said by GL to have 8/10 of palpatine's strength by RotJ, by this time, palpatine was an "unnatural being", by your account.

Originally posted by Nephthys
100 feet tall????

Think again genius! It was 20 feet tall at maximum.
Check these images:-

http://i42.tinypic.com/24ycqq1.png

http://i44.tinypic.com/j6lvyw.png

http://i43.tinypic.com/2nlehcg.png

This tree is much more taller then 20 feet. In-fact, its full size isn't even properly shown since the video is focused on action. It is among the big trees on Aldeeran; look at the size of its truck (seems to be 4 feet wide at-least; the tree itself is many feet long).

Very large trees are a common sight in Aldeeran; SWTOR game also confirms this.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, but that isn't the comparison we are making, legend. Vader was said by GL to have 8/10 of palpatine's strength by RotJ, by this time, palpatine was an "unnatural being", by your account.
Palpatine wasn't an unnatural being in G-canon works. Palpatine began to change in EU canon during OT era.

GL referred to natural potential of his characters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Check these images:-

http://i42.tinypic.com/24ycqq1.png

http://i44.tinypic.com/j6lvyw.png

http://i43.tinypic.com/2nlehcg.png

This tree is much more taller then 20 feet. In-fact, its full size isn't even properly shown since the video is focused on action. It is among the big trees on Aldeeran; look at the size of its truck (seems to be 4 feet wide at-least; the tree itself is many feet long).

Very large trees are a common sight in Aldeeran; SWTOR game also confirms this.

I didn't see the foliage when I first watched but its still nowhere near 100 feet tall. Half that maybe.

still, being immortal doesnt really factor into one's power. Luke Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi/Sith in history, and he wasn't immortal.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
still, being immortal doesnt really factor into one's power. Luke Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi/Sith in history, and he wasn't immortal.
Canon sources do not confirm Luke as the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy; not even the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Jedi Order. The best that Luke has on him is that he is regarded as the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy in his time. Luke have some amazing feats which led fans to believe that he surpassed all others in power but this is FANON assumption at the moment.

Immortality represents most powerful condition a Force-user can knowingly acquire, if I am not mistaken.

When Palpatine began to siphon energies of the populace of Byss planet, he would have exceeded natural potential of any mortal at that moment. Vitiate did the same after his first major transformation; Nihilus possibly as well. This is how these individuals became capable of summoning/controlling most lethal applications of the dark side which could ravage entire planets.

I don't believe vitiate has ever shown planet-destroying capabilities as of yet (though it is entirely possible he may show such capabilities), therefore we cannot assume he does, despite Revan's statement. GL states that luke fulfilled Anakin's potential, which would make him twice as strong as sidious. Luke does have greater feats than vitiate AND palpatine, like manipulating black hole, contending with abeloth, defeating UnuThul, etc.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I don't believe vitiate has ever shown planet-destroying capabilities as of yet (though it is entirely possible he may show such capabilities), therefore we cannot assume he does, despite Revan's statement.
TOR Encyclopedia confirms that Vitiate's capacity as a practitioner of the Force vastly increased after his first major transformation.*

*Keep in mind that Vitiate was even naturally supremely strong in the Force (blessed with extraordinarily high Midichlorian count most likely). So if his capacity as a practitioner of the Force vastly increased after his first major transformation, one can only imagine the possibilities for him during this condition.

As Sith Emperor, Vitiate was siphoning energies of countless beings to perform many actions simultaneously with his Force abilities on galactic scale. He even (possibly) permanently altered the environment of Dromund Kaas. On top of this, Vitiate is legitimately above Nihilus.

Revan, Meetra and Scourge reached consensus on the possibility of Vitiate being capable of ravaging entire worlds with his own power. They concluded that Vitiate was hesitant to do so because this would dampen his ultimate plan and expose his true nature.

Keep in mind that Vitiate's ultimate plan involved his transformation to omnipotent entity with "galaxy-shattering" power. While dark side power of such proportions would be summoned with aid of his minions, he would be the one to eventually control and absorb it to complete his final major transformation.

I think that Vitiate came close to destroying Voss in Jedi Knight's story, if I am not mistaken.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
GL states that luke fulfilled Anakin's potential, which would make him twice as strong as sidious.
Once again! This is about their natural potential.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Luke does have greater feats than vitiate AND palpatine, like manipulating black hole, contending with abeloth, defeating UnuThul, etc.
1) That black hole feat is commonly blown out of proportion by fans; it was an artificial black hole created by Doval Basins to protect a large Vong ship from offensive fire of enemy forces. However, that black hole was very weak in comparison to real ones since it wound vanish from existence after absorbing enemy fire. Real black holes are hell of a lot bigger and powerful in comparison.

2) Luke couldn't hope to defeat Abeloth on his own. He enlisted help of many individuals to succeed in this task.

3) I don't get the hype behind UnuThul; he is stated to be "not an ordinary Force-user" but same is true for many other powerful Force-users. UnuThul have some impressive Force abilities but he wasn't powerful enough to make Luke struggle like several other Force-users did.

I actually have a different theory about draining, inspired by (and probably first debunked by) the Merchant. Draining a planet does not make you more powerful in itself, rather it gives you a far longer life span to do so. Vastly increasing his capacity as a dark side practioner = having more time to learn the secrets of the dark side. Same with sidious, it allowed his life span to be furthered. Nihilus, on the other hand, was a slave to hunger, not necessarily making him more powerful, just in constant need of things to drain so he can survive. His "ultimate plan" is irrelevant, as it was never realized. anyways, Luke and Krayt defeated abeloth together from beyond shadows. also, UnuThul's attempt to dominate Luke's mind was one of the most powerful in the mythos, maybe even surpassing vitiate's. Why? because in vitiate's case, mind dominating 8000 sith lords is vastly impressive, however, these sith were desperate and willing, plus they weren't actively imposing their wills on vitiate. Luke, on the other hand, was resisting UnuThul, whom was drawing on the power of the entire colony, and actively imposing his will on Luke. This suggests insane willpower on Luke's part.

While it is true that some/much of the energy Vitiate drained from Nathema and those 8000 Sith Lords went into prolonging his life indefinitely, its also stated to have increased his power.

Same for Nihilus. Kreia says it increased his power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
While it is true that some/much of the energy Vitiate drained from Nathema and those 8000 Sith Lords went into prolonging his life indefinitely, its also stated to have increased his power.

Where is this stated? because the "vastly increased his capacity" crap I just explained.

Originally posted by Nephthys
While it is true that some/much of the energy Vitiate drained from Nathema and those 8000 Sith Lords went into prolonging his life indefinitely, its also stated to have increased his power.

Same for Nihilus. Kreia says it increased his power.

If your goal was to make Vitiate look even LESS credible, you couldn't have done a better job.

SWTORE.

"When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the sole survivor. The pain, energy and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries."

ah ok, I concede that.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I actually have a different theory about draining, inspired by (and probably first debunked by) the Merchant. Draining a planet does not make you more powerful in itself, rather it gives you a far longer life span to do so. Vastly increasing his capacity as a dark side practioner = having more time to learn the secrets of the dark side. Same with sidious, it allowed his life span to be furthered. Nihilus, on the other hand, was a slave to hunger, not necessarily making him more powerful, just in constant need of things to drain so he can survive.
Neph covered this part above.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
His "ultimate plan" is irrelevant, as it was never realized. anyways,
By the time of COLD WAR, Vitiate had fully prepared himself to make his ultimate plan a reality (after thoroughly exploring the ways of the dark side in a span of some centuries). He actually commenced his ultimate plan during the era of HoT after he saw a vision about HoT striking him down; but his plan failed because of betrayal of Scourge who would eventually set the stage of his downfall. The Force really works in mysterious ways or have its own will.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Luke and Krayt defeated abeloth together from beyond shadows.
Abeloth was fighting on multiple fronts during this time. This is why she lost. Her avatars continued to dwindle in quantity and this wasn't good for her.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
also, UnuThul's attempt to dominate Luke's mind was one of the most powerful in the mythos, maybe even surpassing vitiate's. Why? because in vitiate's case, mind dominating 8000 sith lords is vastly impressive, however, these sith were desperate and willing, plus they weren't actively imposing their wills on vitiate. Luke, on the other hand, was resisting UnuThul, whom was drawing on the power of the entire colony, and actively imposing his will on Luke. This suggests insane willpower on Luke's part.
Actually Luke didn't resist UnuThul's telepathic abilities directly; whenever he was subjected to telepathic influence of UnuThul, he reacted by bombarding UnuThul with their past history. This would discourage UnuThul from telepathically influencing him.

I recall a Dark Jedi who could actually break Luke with his telepathic influence but the Jedi Master was saved from this fate by his companions. Vitiate is stronger then this Dark Jedi as well. Vitiate is seemingly most telepathically dominant Force-user introduced in the mythos yet. He could no just break any individual he wanted to but he telepathically controlled thousands of his minions scattered across the galaxy.

Exactly. The fact that Luke was able to resist UnuThul's telepathy, while simultaneously influencing him, is incredibly impressive. Plus, if direct combat were to engage, Luke would defeat vitiate. How? Luke hilariously outclasses vitiate in lightsaber combat, so vitiate would try to press this to a force battle. I don't see mental domination working, because I think if Revan were to resist it, Luke is perfectly capable of doing so as well, as he is no newcomer to mind domination. Vitiate does have very potent FLS. However, it takes 1-2 seconds to charge, time in which Luke could fold space his lightsaber into vitiate's heart, while the latter is distracted charging his power. Also, Luke has more impressive TK, though they are very close in this regard.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Exactly. The fact that Luke was able to resist UnuThul's telepathy, while simultaneously influencing him, is incredibly impressive.
Luke didn't resist UnuThul's telepathy; he discouraged UnuThul from telepathically influencing him instead.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plus, if direct combat were to engage, Luke would defeat vitiate. How? Luke hilariously outclasses vitiate in lightsaber combat, so vitiate would try to press this to a force battle. I don't see mental domination working, because I think if Revan were to resist it, Luke is perfectly capable of doing so as well, as he is no newcomer to mind domination.
You see! This kind of logic doesn't makes sense.

Revan developed a special counter-measure to prevent Vitiate from telepathically influencing him again but he could do so after experiencing its nature beforehand.

Luke had exposure to offensive telepathic applications but he is not resistant to them. Lord Nyax would have broken him as an example, and Vitiate is stronger then Lord Nyax.

Everybody have fallen to his telepathic influence; HoT; Revan; Malak; Braga; Sedoru; Neraz; and list is long. Multiple powerful Force-users at a time as well.

Vitiate have even (destroyed) minds of some his opponents as well with his telepathic abilities; those he didn't wanted to save or transform into his puppets.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate does have very potent FLS. However, it takes 1-2 seconds to charge, time in which Luke could fold space his lightsaber into vitiate's heart, while the latter is distracted charging his power. Also, Luke has more impressive TK, though they are very close in this regard.
Vitiate have some crazy capabilities. He once defeated an entire Dark Council with a mysterious power. He is virtually immune to effects of many Force powers as well.

---

Luke can win by virtue of circumstances but not in a fair contest in which both are prepared to fight each other.

The context of the dark council's death is unknown, they were unprepared for any sort of confrontation, and vitiate may very well have set a trap/utilized a ritual. In a fair contest in which both are prepared to fight each other, Luke would know of vitiate's mind domination capability, and would create ample mental barriers against it (much like Revan taught to Meetra/Scourge). Plus, when is it shown that vitiate is immune to the effects of many force powers?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The context of the dark council's death is unknown, they were unprepared for any sort of confrontation, and vitiate may very well have set a trap/utilized a ritual.
No!

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.

Source: (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia, Page 156)

1. This particular Dark Council prepared itself to eliminate Vitiate.
2. Vitiate also prepared himself to eliminate this particular Dark Council after he came to know about its treacherous intentions.
3. Vitiate unleashed a mysterious power to eliminate much of this Council. Lokess somehow survived but she was as good as dead nonetheless.
4. No ritual involved in this contest; this source have explicitly pointed out rituals based actions of Vitiate otherwise.

Rituals are typically performed to unleash dark side powers on mass destructive scale. Same powers can be unleashed without rituals but would be less potent in scope. Do you know that even Though Bomb can be unleashed singlehandedly?

Vitiate is an extraordinarily powerful Force-user by all accounts. He have controlled highest number of Force-users in galactic history.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
In a fair contest in which both are prepared to fight each other, Luke would know of vitiate's mind domination capability, and would create ample mental barriers against it (much like Revan taught to Meetra/Scourge). Plus, when is it shown that vitiate is immune to the effects of many force powers?
Ever seen any Force power harming him? He have been struck down by a lightsaber.

Also, their are some techniques which can bypass formal defenses of Force-users. Being a (super) Sith Sorcerer, Vitiate would be well-versed in undermining formal defenses of his opponents. This is why he have such an amazing combat record and have broken and killed so many individuals in the mythos. His downfall have circumstances attached to it.

I see your edit. It still does not, however, answer my response.

Edit: nvm

Actually, Sidious says rituals are but stepping stones to gain ones true power, an example would be having to use a ritual that required assistance to drain a planet, and being able to drain one without said help. Revan has blasted vitiate back with his light-dark release, taking the form of a very potent telekenetic barrage. Luke is also extremely Potent with TK, and can use it to provide significant harm to vitiate. Also, as I mentioned, he could fold space a lightsaber into vitiate's heart, if the latter is distracted channeling his power/directing a mental assault or attack.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Actually, Sidious says rituals are but stepping stones to gain ones true power, an example would be having to use a ritual that required assistance to drain a planet, and being able to drain one without said help.
Sidious is correct and understands the ground realities of the dark side properly. Vitiate's story lends credibility to his assertion.

I think that their is a confusion about some actions of Vitiate; he wanted to test the limits of his dark side abilities and this is why he orchestrated such a devastating ritual on Medriaas. He certainly summoned such power with external aid but he controlled the outcome and accomplished all of his objectives of that time with great success in the process. After his first major transformation was complete, Vitiate could siphon energies from individuals on galactic scale at will to sustain his immortal condition indefinitely and fuel his power and he did do for as long as he lasted. He continued to siphon energies from souls of countless beings he trapped within void of Medriaas, many individuals on Dromund Kaas and also from Revan on a place known as Maelstrom Prison which was 12 parsecs away from Dromund Kaas. During this time, Vitiate was most likely capable of pulling off Medriaas like feat by himself but slowly and surely prepared for his ultimate plan. He performed all of these tasks to make his ultimate plan possible.

Vitiate -> Sith Emperor -> omnipotent godlike being

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan has blasted vitiate back with his light-dark release, taking the form of a very potent telekenetic barrage. Luke is also extremely Potent with TK, and can use it to provide significant harm to vitiate. Also, as I mentioned, he could fold space a lightsaber into vitiate's heart, if the latter is distracted channeling his power/directing a mental assault or attack.
Vitiate is virtually immune to TK based applications as per existing evidence. This doesn't mean that he cannot be pushed around with most potent forms of TK but he is unlikely to be harmed by even impact against structures; he is hardcore to the bone. In-fact, their is an alternative scene in SWTOR in which HoT throws a gigantic pillar over Vitiate's wounded avatar and Vitiate could still animate that avatar.

That fold space talent is interesting. Revan also possessed this talent but he didn't find the opportunity to use it against Vitiate, such was the pressure of the latter.

Revan possessing fold space is speculation, and cannot be considered canon until further documentation. also, Luke >>> Revan.

When he throws the pillar at vitiate, his body dies, but his spirit lives on.

^^^

Revan have some crazy talents/capabilities by the way (He proved this during his encounter against an Imperial Strike Team; seems like as if he bended time and space to escape from that location). Luke might be stronger then Revan but not by a big margin, IMO.

EDIT: Vitiate's avatar was already badly injured by that point due to multiple lightsaber stabs so Vitiate was not in the position to offer a counter to that kind of power from HoT. In healthy state, Vitiate would have prevented that pillar from falling over him. In-fact, even in such a vulnerable phase, Vitiate was able to throw several of those gigantic pillars on HoT's position in the aftermath. But HoT managed to escape.

you may very well turn out to be correct, however we cannot give characters assumed powers. Like saying if revan has power A, he can use power B. Luke is stronger than Revan by a big margin, again, because Luke is far superior in lightsaber combat, and in the force, based on feats.

edit: hmm, if the HoT could deal several lightsaber strikes to vitiate, why wouldn't luke be capable of doing the same?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
you may very well turn out to be correct, however we cannot give characters assumed powers. Like saying if revan has power A, he can use power B. Luke is stronger than Revan by a big margin, again, because Luke is far superior in lightsaber combat, and in the force, based on feats.
Actually feats alone do not verify relative strength of a character in comparison to other. Galen have a crazy feat but he couldn't channel that level of power against Vader in combat situation which makes sense since combat situations involve quick decision-making and continuous use of the Force to anticipate actions of the opponents. Luke have also performed his greatest feats with full concentration; his most prominent feat left him almost breathless afterwards.

In contrast, we do not have examples of Revan unleashing his power with full concentration yet. Author however claims that Revan could do crazy stuff with his Force abilities under right state of mind (Personal communication).

Keep in mind that Revan endured 300 years of worst kind of torture and was still able to hold his own against an Imperial Strike Team after his release when it was sent to assassinate him. This is phenomenal display of skill, power and endurance for a mortal. In his prime condition, Revan steam-rolled through Sith forces stationed aboard Star Forge (his greatest accomplishment). Revan is the only individual to have thoroughly explored both light and dark sides of the Force and accomplish perfect uniformity between the two concepts/pathways to hone his talents; he could create new Force powers with such capabilities.*

*I recall that the author once told me that Revan could create new Force powers, he was so prodigiously talented in the use of the Force.

Revan is arguably the greatest legend of the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
edit: hmm, if the HoT could deal several lightsaber strikes to vitiate, why wouldn't luke be capable of doing the same?
This could only be possible in circumstantial way since Vitiate was vulnerable during this time due to his involvement in the most ambitious ritual to have ever been attempted. Prior to this, HoT also failed to do anything about Vitiate. The timing of this encounter was carefully chosen, thanks to input from Scourge.

How good was Luke at coping with dark side conditions of the Dromund Kaas by the way? I hear that many prominent individuals couldn't cope well with the dark side conditions of this planet. List includes Yoda, Ben, Kyle and Luke. Now fighting Vitiate inside this planet would be suicidal. In-fact, Vitiate was extremely effective in any setting under fair circumstances as he proved from his feat of defeating an extremely capable Jedi Strike Team on one his space stations. This is why I do no subscribe to the theory that names such as Yoda and Luke will automatically succeed in every kind of challenge. We shouldn't assume that Yoda and Luke do not have weaknesses or are blessed with no-limits fallacy.

When you say revan is greatest legend of jedi order, do you mean most powerful? cause you'd be wrong. BTW, the author states in Revan novel that revan needed meetra's help for strength when he got captured by sith emperor. Again, speculation is speculation, however I would find it interesting if it turns our Revan created the fold space talent. I do also believe in implied power, and revan most likely was a very skilled lightsaber duelist, however to say he's at least dooku level is simply incorrect, as Dooku has feats and accolades to outclass Revan.

In no way do I believe Yoda/Luke cannot be defeated, however to believe the same about vitiate is hypocrisy. Luke and Yoda are prodigiously powerful wielders of the lightside, and could certainly hold their own/defeat the sith emperor.

Revan cannot use Fold Space. Firstly, the technique was never described as a flash of light or anything of the sort. Secondly, the Aang Ti created Fold Space in the ancient times, and in no point of Revan's story would he have even had the chance to discover them. Thirdly, if he could use Fold Space, he would have used this to his advantage in his battle with Vitiate. And lastly, but not least--If Revan had survived his battle with the Strike team, he wouldn't just disappear forever, he'd continue his quest to defeat Vitiate. But he didn't. Cuz he died.

Yeah but he didn't since he's Revan and **** you thats why.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan is arguably the greatest legend of the Jedi Order.

HoT >>>

D:

lol, but yeah. Saying Revan could use Fold Space in a debate is not credible.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
When you say revan is greatest legend of jedi order, do you mean most powerful? cause you'd be wrong.
Not necessarily most powerful but among the select few elites. He have such level of hype going for him in canon.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
BTW, the author states in Revan novel that revan needed meetra's help for strength when he got captured by sith emperor. Again, speculation is speculation, however I would find it interesting if it turns our Revan created the fold space talent. I do also believe in implied power, and revan most likely was a very skilled lightsaber duelist, however to say he's at least dooku level is simply incorrect, as Dooku has feats and accolades to outclass Revan.
Dooku doesn't have feats and accolades to outclass Revan.

Revan have accolades matching those of Luke:-

1. Jedi Order's most powerful champion
2. Heart of the Force

Also, Revan have routed armies, destroyed many Basilisks, defeated some very powerful adversaries and gave Vitiate some trouble (a godlike avatar of the dark side as per canon).

Dooku have more screen-time so this is why the list of his feats is big accordingly. But Dooku haven't done anything which should confirm his superiority over Revan. His finest showing is on Geonosis but he benefitted from Yoda's passivity. The only thing Dooku may have over Revan is (supposed) greater proficiency in bladework but Revan have superior mastery of the Force on his side and this would give him advantage.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
In no way do I believe Yoda/Luke cannot be defeated, however to believe the same about vitiate is hypocrisy. Luke and Yoda are prodigiously powerful wielders of the lightside, and could certainly hold their own/defeat the sith emperor.
You don't get it! In a contest of raw power, select few might be able to hold their own against Vitiate but the latter possesses dark side talents to undermine any kind of opponent; techniques are the key.

Analogy: Why do you think that Sith Triumvirate was so dangerous? Because those Sith Lords learned some techniques which would make it possible for them to effectively undermine opposition.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Revan cannot use Fold Space. Firstly, the technique was never described as a flash of light or anything of the sort. Secondly, the Aang Ti created Fold Space in the ancient times, and in no point of Revan's story would he have even had the chance to discover them.
Revan seemingly knows something similar, if not the same.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Thirdly, if he could use Fold Space, he would have used this to his advantage in his battle with Vitiate.
This is silly claim;

Why didn't Dooku use FL against Anakin aboard Invisible Hand?

Point is that we need to focus on the dynamics of the battle at hand. Vitiate isn't an individual who is going to grant his opposition sufficient opportunity to gain advantage over him; he puts that kind of pressure on his opposition.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And lastly, but not least--If Revan had survived his battle with the Strike team, he wouldn't just disappear forever, he'd continue his quest to defeat Vitiate. But he didn't. Cuz he died.
Who told you that he disappeared forever? Unless his story arc is officially complete, we cannot assume about his fate. Bioware workers have hinted that they have left the door open for Revan's return, should it be required. Revan's story took a break during KoTOR II so it may have taken a break for now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
HoT >>>
Possible

yoda and Luke both have abilities that vitiate may not know of as well, especially considering that vitiate came LONG before luke and yoda did. Yoda's actually alot like vitiate in the sense that he's been around for a long time to learn as much as possible about the lightside, and he also studied how to defend againts every darkside technique (or almost every). Luke has greater raw power than vitiate, being the son of the chosen one himself (who woulda become most powerful force user in history), and also has abilities vitiate may not be familiar with, like shatterpoint (which would be further amplified by vitiate's tactical ineptitude in many situations), perfect illusions, electric judgement that insta-killed vong slayers (note: vitiate has never seen any jedi use such ability), has TK ability to re-build/destroy vader's fortress, has deflected AT-AT fire with bare hands, then lightsaber, and proceeded to knock it down. Plus Luke has enormous speed advantage, and vitiate hasn't (canonically as of yet) fought an opponent as fast as Luke. BTW, when I said Dooku>Revan due to accolades, I meant in sabers

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
yoda and Luke both have abilities that vitiate may not know of as well, especially considering that vitiate came LONG before luke and yoda did.
Actually this kind of reasoning doesn't works. People in future eras are not necessarily more well-versed in the ways of the Force in comparison to their predecessors. Reason is that not every bit of knowledge gets recorded and ancient records have ended up destroyed numerous times in history. To give you an idea, the event of Sacking of Coruscant led to loss of ancient records accumulated in a period of Millenium (10 decades). Their are more examples of significant losses. Jedi Master Gnost Dural (who is among the greatest Jedi historians) admitted that not much is known about the mysterious Sith Emperor due to his immensely secretive nature. I am not saying that he would be a complete unknown since HoT have history with him but even his knowledge would be realistically limited. Of-course, their is always a possibility of an individual discovering new things but I have yet to see examples of Yoda and Luke creating new Force powers. In the world of Star Wars, much of the knowledge about ways of the Force comes from ancient sources.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yoda's actually alot like vitiate in the sense that he's been around for a long time to learn as much as possible about the lightside, and he also studied how to defend againts every darkside technique (or almost every).
Actually Yoda isn't alike Vitiate at all. Yoda would have shared his knowledge with fellow Jedi but Vitiate was exactly the opposite. Vitiate actually earned "secretive" title because of his nature. He didn't train generations of Sith but rather focused on studying the dark side in his own ways. Much of his activities were not well-known even within his Empire. Some attempted to learn about his history but information obtained about him have never been complete; Sith Emperor have attempted to minimize access to channels that may offer clues about his history and knowledge of the dark side.

Also, is their concrete evidence of Yoda knowing how to defend against every dark side application? This seems to be an absurd claim.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Luke has greater raw power than vitiate, being the son of the chosen one himself (who woulda become most powerful force user in history),
Actually EU tends to drift away from this G-canon assumption because even prime Luke is no where even close to matching the power of most powerful Force-users in the mythos.

Vitiate can fuel his raw power by siphoning energies from countless beings so he have innate advantage over any mortal in this respect.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
and also has abilities vitiate may not be familiar with, like shatterpoint (which would be further amplified by vitiate's tactical ineptitude in many situations),
Satele shan had shatterpoint ability; HoT also possibly had this ability since he have feats indicating this. In-fact individuals in the Empire may also have this ability. Issue is that their is so much content in SWTOR that Bioware author often overlook minute details of their own creations and therefore audience is often left with questions.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
perfect illusions,
Vitiate himself have this capability.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
electric judgement that insta-killed vong slayers (note: vitiate has never seen any jedi use such ability),
Vitiate have encountered many Jedi during his span of existence but majority of these Jedi ended up dead. It is unclear what all of these Jedi were capable off at the moment. However, such mammoth history leaves room for lot of creative liberties.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
has TK ability to re-build/destroy vader's fortress,
Can you provide evidence of this?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
has deflected AT-AT fire with bare hands, then lightsaber, and proceeded to knock it down.
I don't recall him using bare hands. However, Galen have matching feat. In-fact, I won't be surprised that some individuals serving Vitiate may replicate matching feat without much effort.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plus Luke has enormous speed advantage, and vitiate hasn't (canonically as of yet) fought an opponent as fast as Luke.
HoT is immensely fast and capable duelist. In-fact, many amazingly capable warriors have served Vitiate.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
BTW, when I said Dooku>Revan due to accolades, I meant in sabers
Ok!

Comparison with Revan in this aspect is difficult; Revan does have feats of killing two large Terentateks simultaneously, handling firepower of several Mandalorians from close distance and outdueling an Imperial Guard individual with relative ease. Revan have exceptional mastery of the Force on his side which makes him very effective duelist as well.

Cannot give vitiate advantage due to lack of knowledge, we must base our verdicts on what we know. From what we know, HoT doesn't have shatterpoint, and Satele has never confronted the emperor. Also from what we know, vitiate has never confronted electric judgement, especially one of Luke's power output. When I said perfect illusions, I meant ones capable of affecting Luke himself. Vitiate's duplicates are separate altogether, and can easily be dispatched by a stroke of the lightsaber. HoT doesn't have a plethora of speed/dueling feats, only that he was the most powerful padawan in generations, and that he was powerful enough to go to dromund kaas (while his mind was being sheilded from darkside effects by Orgus Din, admittedly) fight through kaas city, and defeat emperor (although in a weakened state, drawing on the nexus of Dromund Kaas itself would remedy some of this). About Yoda thing, yes there is a source that states he had knowledge of defending against all darkside techniques, which I can believe as completely possible, as vitiate probably mastered every/almost every darkside technique himself, in his 1400 year lifespan. Luke is a prodigy of the force, having highest midichlorian count ever. Is there any proof to your claim that a being like DE Sidious > Luke, just because he's immortal? because I believe that Luke successfully defeated DE Sidious with help from Leia, and that Luke became FAR more powerful later on in time, being able to pin a being considered more powerful than darth vader to a chair, easily.

Shan wins sabers, loses force wins all out.

Where has she demonstrated lightsaber prowess in excess of Marek?

Originally posted by ares834
Where has she demonstrated lightsaber prowess in excess of Marek?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is silly claim;

Why didn't Dooku use FL against Anakin aboard Invisible Hand?


That's easy; because Anakin could block it, leaving Dooku vulnerable against Obi Wan. Besides, he was going to throw the fight against Skywalker. Likewise, that Han Solo does not blow up the Death Star with a Kamehameha is probably a result of his not being able to do so. If Revan doesn't use fold space against Vitiate, it's safe to conclude it would not yield him significant tactical advantages for whatever reason. To make a claim to a character's abilities, and then dismiss all contradicting evidence as PIS or plot device (which is a euphemism for "inconvenient facts" is quite blatantly dishonest debating.