Mandarin(w/o Rings) Vs Batman(w/o Gadgets)

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Igniz
Hand to hand only.Go!!

pym-ftw
Poor Bruce....

Eternal Idol
Batman's kung fu is weak.

Mshinu
Madarin judo chops Bruce in twain.

Branlor Swift
What seriously? Batman kicks the dogshit out of Mandarin

Igniz
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What seriously? Batman kicks the dogshit out of Mandarin

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/Mandarin/H2H/TOS50p14.jpg
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/Mandarin/H2H/IM57p23.jpg
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/Mandarin/H2H/AvengersANN1p25.jpg

Branlor Swift
Lol at that Cap scan.

But still, Batman has way better feats than that, while showing skill as opposed to just hitting hard (which he does). Do the Billy, Grodd, Lobo, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, etc scans really need to be brought up?

Igniz
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Lol at that Cap scan.

Mandarin's karate chop>>>Hulk's fist since Cap's shield has withstood many of the Hulk's fist laughing out loud

Cap's shield>>>>Batman's durability=Fact cool

Mandarin's karate chop will make mince meat out of Batman laughing out loud

DarkSaint85
I do like the 'karate' 'stance' of the Mandarin in the 4th panel on the 2nd scan..

Batman-Prime
Batman, better h2h fighter, he won't even get hit.

Branlor Swift
It'd be better if you threw Temugin in there too to get his head booted in by Batman.

Mshinu
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I do like the 'karate' 'stance' of the Mandarin in the 4th panel on the 2nd scan..

Looks like a defensive cat stance smile

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/1492541184/hB355B03F/

Branlor Swift
He's talking about the peeping Tom stance

Igniz
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
It'd be better if you threw Temugin in there too to get his head booted in by Batman.

Don't underestimate Temujin.He actually not only hurt the Living Laser(who was made out of energy) but made a Masochist out of him big grin I'd like to see Batman hurt a being made out of energy using only his fist stick out tongue

DarkSaint85
True.

He's only ever done it with his foot.

Igniz
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True.

He's only ever done it with his foot.

I like the way Living Laser/Temujin scenario played out.

Living Laser:You brain dead, junior?You can't hong-kong-phooey a guy made out of energ--aaahh!

laughing out loud laughing out loud

abhilegend
Originally posted by Igniz
I like the way Living Laser/Temujin scenario played out.

Living Laser:You brain dead, junior?You can't hong-kong-phooey a guy made out of energ--aaahh!

laughing out loud laughing out loud
laughing out loud

Post the scan bro. It sounds hilarious.

StiltmanFTW
Luke Cage did that, too. Via Bendispower, not skill though.

battlemaster161
Such a rape stomp

leonidas
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What seriously? Batman kicks the dogshit out of Mandarin

lol

while i'm not sure i go the dogsh!t route, bats has more than enough feats to support him winning this. be good to see mandy fight someone like iron fist or something in straight h2h. funny how highly people rate mandy on relatively few feats and showings. i love mandarin, but it's always puzzled me why everyone assumes he's somehow so awesomez!1!

ODG
Most comic master martial artists can't casually karate chop foot-thick steel doors in half:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Mandarin01.jpg

Mandarin isn't a character who has a handful of feats of knocking the wind out of Aquaman, Grundy and Wonder Woman. He's fought Iron Man with his martial arts pretty much every single time... maybe in all but 1-2 of their fights. He's kicked the sh1t out of Iron Man straight up with his fists, parried and blocked same, and even broken his arms with martial arts holds:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Mandarin02.jpg

When Batman regularly engages a foe like Iron Man from the 60s, 70s, 80, 90s, 00s, all the way through to modern times with H2H combat, and essentially dominates that foe nearly every single time with it, then a comparison can be made.

Mandarin was Temugin before there was a Temugin and he completely outclasses Batman.

Sixth_Winged
wtf that karate chop looks straight up superhuman

ODG
^ Which is basically my point.

StiltmanFTW
He also had some embarrassing showings, too... but of course so did the Batman.

DCnU happened, so Bats won't last even a single panel.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by ODG
Most comic master martial artists can't casually karate chop foot-thick steel doors in half:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Mandarin01.jpg

Mandarin isn't a character who has a handful of feats of knocking the wind out of Aquaman, Grundy and Wonder Woman. He's fought Iron Man with his martial arts pretty much every single time... maybe in all but 1-2 of their fights. He's kicked the sh1t out of Iron Man straight up with his fists, parried and blocked same, and even broken his arms with martial arts holds:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Mandarin02.jpg

When Batman regularly engages a foe like Iron Man from the 60s, 70s, 80, 90s, 00s, all the way through to modern times with H2H combat, and essentially dominates that foe nearly every single time with it, then a comparison can be made.

Mandarin was Temugin before there was a Temugin and he completely outclasses Batman.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JAYOP--Y3Lg/UadaI38_3cI/AAAAAAAAe0w/mAdxmqrEJhM/s640/tumblr_static_batman-laughing.gif


First he had still his rings in the first scan and in the second, what glove is this?

Anyway, he isn't good enough, not fast enough to even tag Batman. ^^

thanos-prime
Mandarin destroys Batman.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by thanos-prime
Mandarin destroys Batman.

No he doesn't, the scans above are not what they seem to be., pls post the whole fight against Iron man. IIRC mandarin was amped by his rings or something like that.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No he doesn't, the scans above are not what they seem to be., pls post the whole fight against Iron man. IIRC mandarin was amped by his rings or something like that.

Rings don't amp Mandarin's striking power. It certainly wasn't the case in the scan presented, as I read it.

Can't comment on the modern one since I haven't read Extremis story with Mandy.

thanos-prime
Mandarin's rings have never been stated to amp him, as far as I can recall.

Batman-Prime
Ok found it in the IM respect thread, thanks to Galan007

Manadarin had the rings fused to his spine and this isn't his normal hand but tech from tony. So yes he was amped and got still owned hard.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tony Silver Centurion Armor] vs. Mandarin:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5600/immand1oh3.th.jpg http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5553/immand2ca3.th.jpg http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8909/immand3au4.th.jpg http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6060/immand4on4.th.jpg http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/122/immand5an3.th.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2204/immand6dk3.th.jpg http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7492/immand7yh8.th.jpg http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5228/immand8ei8.th.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8317/immand9qu9.th.jpg http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/194/immand10qi3.th.jpg


As you can see, the Silver Centurion armor is more powerful than some may have thought.

I know there are some bastiches who just show one scan from a whole fight, without telling the folks the circumstances of the fight and the outcome, just to mislead them and prove something which isn't true. But this is just sad. Lying won't give the mandarin the win.

thanos-prime
Where was he amped exactly? He had "medical prosthetic" hands because his real hands were gone.

StiltmanFTW
^ And two fingers of that bionic hand were burned off.

Batman-Prime
Still it wasn't his hand. And he could shoot beams from his hand, the rings were one with him, it's obviously he couldn't have done a lot of things without them and the prothesis. This feat, if it's a feat at all, is not under mandarins natural and own powers. simple.

thanos-prime
I'm not really sure what you're saying. Looks like gibberish. Everything he did was perfectly natural to him and the rings.

What would a medical prosthetic hand have to offer him? Do you think Tony Stark sells medical prosthetics that grant superhuman powers to random people? And regardless, his striking power and durability have always been enormous.

Batman-Prime
Sure, I know why you would say this, he shoot beams from his hands and the rings were fused to his body, once tony ripped them out the fight turned onesided.

Anyway, more impressive, Batman owns an mind controlled Solomon Grundy

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1117052-batvsgrundy_sb.jpg

StiltmanFTW
He was shooting beams out of his hands because of the rings fused to his spine. It does not lessen the striking / damage soak feats in any way.

thanos-prime
Tony turned the fight around when he ripped some rings out of the Mandarin's spine, blasted him with said rings + repulsor + unibeam, launching him into a steel vat, which still didn't knock him out. That much is true.

Mandarin is faster, smarter and more skilled than Grundy. He is fast enough to effortlessly dodge bullets after being chained up for YEARS without food and water, due to his chi mastery.

the ninjak
Mandarin had the rings attached to his spine in some of those examples.

And Tony fought him in an old armor. I remember Tony going Mantis Style and being impressed.

Regardless........Tony is nowhere near Bruce in skill.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by thanos-prime
Tony turned the fight around when he ripped some rings out of the Mandarin's spine, blasted him with said rings + repulsor + unibeam, launching him into a steel vat, which still didn't knock him out. That much is true.

Mandarin is faster, smarter and more skilled than Grundy. He is fast enough to effortlessly dodge bullets after being chained up for YEARS without food and water, due to his chi mastery.

Batman took punches from superstrength beings and even beat Grundy who can go toe to toe with Superman. Batman is much more skilled then Mandarin, faster, smarter and by far more intelligent. He beats the shit out of a Mandarin w/wo rings.

thanos-prime
Oh, I know. Batman has taken punches from Superman which means nothing less than that can even hurt him.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by thanos-prime
Oh, I know. Batman has taken punches from Superman which means nothing less than that can even hurt him.

Yeah and he kicked Spectre and Spectre felt it.

Take feats, just the best from both and Batman sh1ts all over mandarin. Simple point, glad you get it thumb up .

thanos-prime
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Yeah and he kicked Spectre and Spectre felt it.

Take feats, just the best from both and Batman sh1ts all over mandarin. Simple point, glad you get it thumb up .

thumb up

JBL
Mandarin in a stomp.

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JAYOP--Y3Lg/UadaI38_3cI/AAAAAAAAe0w/mAdxmqrEJhM/s640/tumblr_static_batman-laughing.gif


First he had still his rings in the first scan and in the second, what glove is this?

Anyway, he isn't good enough, not fast enough to even tag Batman. ^^ Mandarin doesn't use his rings to amp his hands. If you had ever read a single Iron Man comic, you might know this. There might be one scene where he does and it's all glowy and stuff. But neither Mandarin, nor Iron Man, nor the comics have ever attributed Mandarin's superhuman karate to his rings.

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Ok found it in the IM respect thread, thanks to Galan007

Manadarin had the rings fused to his spine and this isn't his normal hand but tech from tony. So yes he was amped and got still owned hard.

I know there are some bastiches who just show one scan from a whole fight, without telling the folks the circumstances of the fight and the outcome, just to mislead them and prove something which isn't true. But this is just sad. Lying won't give the mandarin the win. Didn't even see this.

If you're going to be a buffoon, best not be a spectacularly uninformed buffoon full of conceit and misplaced resentment.

Read an Iron Man comic, plz. I suggest preparing some tampons before doing so.

Branlor Swift
Does reading an Iron Man comic without Mandarin in it count?

ODG
http://31.media.tumblr.com/64c59db16ad38ab79a7985889f06f8ee/tumblr_mie9x9PNDn1rcdqrpo1_500.gif

Branlor Swift
In fact there's a solid chance that Batman-Prime has read every Iron Man comic ever published, except the ones with Mandarin in them.

ODG
http://tvrecappersanonymous.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/joff-hit-rhworkshop.gif

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by ODG
Didn't even see this.

If you're going to be a buffoon, best not be a spectacularly uninformed buffoon full of conceit and misplaced resentment.

Read an Iron Man comic, plz. I suggest preparing some tampons before doing so.

I read more then enough during the 90ties and this here is plain enough, you left out the rest of the fight and all circumstances to suit your case. It's a cheap way because you know that Mandarin without his rings has done almost nothing. Since he could shoot beams from his hand means the rings energy went through his body which in turn means he was amped and this fight is not unamped.

So your little lying wannabe, maybe it's time to take your tampons out of your ass and put them in your filthy mouth? Anyway. The Iron Man Comics I read were good in that sense that he was on par with Dr. Doom, an alcoholic and looked like Tom Selleck.

Daredevil1
Mandarin strikes are pretty up there.

But I do recall someone posting a scan with him striking Ironman and it hurt his hand a lot?

janus77
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
In fact there's a solid chance that Batman-Prime has read every Iron Man comic ever published, except the ones with Mandarin in them.
And what about reading Iron Man comics in Mandarin? Do they change the plots? The origins? The winner? confused

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I read more then enough during the 90ties and this here is plain enough, you left out the rest of the fight and all circumstances to suit your case. It's a cheap way because you know that Mandarin without his rings has done almost nothing. Since he could shoot beams from his hand means the rings energy went through his body which in turn means he was amped and this fight is not unamped. Are you an idiot? So now I have to prove the negative and prove that Mandarin does not use his rings to amp his superhuman karate? Despite all the scenes already posted where it's literally stated on-panel he's using his superhuman karate and not his rings? How many scenes need to posted for me to do your own job for you? Hey, here's another one where his rings are disabled and, guess what, his superhuman karate is in no way diminished:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Mandarin07.jpg

By all means, show us any proof where Mandarin's superhuman karate is attributed to his rings. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So your little lying wannabe, maybe it's time to take your tampons out of your ass and put them in your filthy mouth? Anyway. The Iron Man Comics I read were good in that sense that he was on par with Dr. Doom, an alcoholic and looked like Tom Selleck. Did any of those comics you supposedly read involve the Iron Man comics that directly precede the fight scene I posted? You know, like this scene here where Mandarin has no hands, was kept locked up deprived of all food, water and sleep FOR YEARS and ends up doing this without his rings:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin03.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin05.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin04.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin06.jpg

ODG
Let's call this for it is is, Batman-Prime. You're a b1tchmade troll who has some heretofore unseen levels of resentment and butthurt over absolutely nothing. Or, it is completely earned... but nobody cares to remember why. Who are you again?

You can't argue facts within the comics because you're either a) too biased to read them for what they are, or b) too lazy to actually prepare yourself for constructive discussion by opening a comic book.

You can't flame or troll effectively with any sort of wit and when you do, you end up looking like you just sh1t your diapers.

So the best you've got to rely on is hoping to catch me in a lie and cast aspersions about my honesty over comic book facts. Because, on an internet discussion board, a blatant liar is probably the lowest common denominator. Then again... how does it feel? Lying about someone else being a liar? I daresay, you've just single-handedly extended the ladder of trollery by another rung downwards.

Read comics. Stop being butthurt. Nobody gives a sh1t about you or what you think about me. We care about comics. That's why we're on this discussion board. Your torn anus has nothing to do with me. But it has everything to do with your innocently uninformed misconception that Batman was superior to Mandarin in H2H, being called out on it by multiple people, having it definitively proven with actual scans, you being butthurt over having your foot in your mouth, accusing others of lying about said scans, and then having this hilariously sad attitude and act of your's be deconstructed in front of everyone.

You could have left your innocent misconception at that. It's not like anybody was incessantly throwing it back in your face. You could have just read scans and learned something new about a comics character you knew little to nothing about, but no. You apparently sign on to this discussion board to be proverbially molested up the a$$ because you deserve and beg for it.

This has been a lesson. Consider yourself informed. You can thank me for it later.

ODG
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Mandarin strikes are pretty up there.

But I do recall someone posting a scan with him striking Ironman and it hurt his hand a lot? Not in this thread. And not in any fight I've ever read. Mandarin has always been able to strike Iron Man through his armor with bare hands, feet, elbows, etc. These are all from different fights and haven't even yet been posted:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin08.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin09.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin11.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin10.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin12.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin13.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin14.jpg

But by all means, if you can think of where Mandarin might have hurt himself hitting Iron Man, let me know. I'd very much be interested in seeing it.

StiltmanFTW
It did happen. But there was context, Tony used armor's device to calculate how to block perfectly. Mandarin got better in later stories, as stated by himself...

ODG
^ Oh yeah, the one where Tony uses a slide rule calculator (no, I'm not kidding) and super-mathematics to calculate proper angles in their first fight ever. There you go.

One showing that you can disregard as PIS. Especially when compared to pretty much every single fight of theirs thereafter.

There's a reason Mandarin has always been considered among the Uber/Unearthly Tier of martial artists in comics on these forums.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by ODG
Are you an idiot? So now I have to prove the negative and prove that Mandarin does not use his rings to amp his superhuman karate? Despite all the scenes already posted where it's literally stated on-panel he's using his superhuman karate and not his rings? How many scenes need to posted for me to do your own job for you? Hey, here's another one where his rings are disabled and, guess what, his superhuman karate is in no way diminished:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Mandarin07.jpg

By all means, show us any proof where Mandarin's superhuman karate is attributed to his rings. Did any of those comics you supposedly read involve the Iron Man comics that directly precede the fight scene I posted? You know, like this scene here where Mandarin has no hands, was kept locked up deprived of all food, water and sleep FOR YEARS and ends up doing this without his rings:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin03.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin05.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin04.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin06.jpg


laughing out loud

You are an upset little fellow aren't you, just because you have been caught in a lie.

1. Are the rings bound to his spine? Yes.
2. Does he shoot energy from his hands because the rings are fused to his spine? yes.
3. Do the rings bestow powers on him? Yes.
4. Did you just post one scene from the whole fight, even cut the page, just to misinform the people and suit your case? Yes.
5. Are you now angry and flaming because you feel exposed and dumb? Yes.

Simple, even a flamebiatch like you should understand this little fact. ^^

I didn't bother to read you flame attempts, it would be a waste of time reading more then the first sentence. But I looked at the scans. Batman is the superior h2h fighter who knows more styles and even hurt beings like Solomon Grundy with his skills, skills which are by far superior to Mandarin.

You are seemingly biased against DC or Batman in general but even a liar like you should know that Batmans h2h feats shit all over an unamped Mandarin.

And now go on flame and cry even more because you were exposed, and next time post the whole fight and don't leave out informations, boy.

Batman-Prime
Just for the lulz, Mandarin without his Rings

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans13/IM100_Rings.jpg

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
You are an upset little fellow aren't you, Irony. At someone who just realized how dumbfoundedly ignorant of comics he was. By all means, we all know the only way you've got out of this conversation, is deeper down the hole you just dug for yourself. When you get a single comic showing the rings are responsible for Mandarin's superhuman karate, let us know.

I'm sure you'll be able to build some sort of case against every single other appearance of Mandarin we have, including the ones where he doesn't have rings or they were disabled. Not that you can actually overturn the damning picture of your bleeding vagina as revealed by this thread over a complete non-issue.

Thanks for the laffs, Butthurt-Prime.

leonidas
i'm not doubting mandy's skill. i'm saying that there is support that bats could certainly fight him and do well. be good to see mandarin go against another uber martial guy. damaging tony's all well and good, but tony is not the most skilled fighter so judging his skill level is not as easy as saying--he hurt tony so he must be the uberest fighter ever. i highly doubt for example if he fought cap or logan or iron fist h2h that mandarin would beat them down. in fact, i thought he DID fight one of them somewhere but i can't recall who or where.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not doubting mandy's skill. i'm saying that there is support that bats could certainly fight him and do well. be good to see mandarin go against another uber martial guy. damaging tony's all well and good, but tony is not the most skilled fighter so judging his skill level is not as easy as saying--he hurt tony so he must be the uberest fighter ever. i highly doubt for example if he fought cap or logan or iron fist h2h that mandarin would beat them down. in fact, i thought he DID fight one of them somewhere but i can't recall who or where.

thumb up He is good no one doubts it but guys like CA, Logan, Batman are above him in the MA department.

His powers and feats come mostly from his Rings.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/68727/1285169-mikefichera__mandarinringsuni.jpg

The grant him even something like "Superspeed"
They can enchance their wearer and iirc he even got some "Dragonhands" for some time. It's undisputable that his Body and his skills and so all his feats are amped by the rings.

Here a quote from his marvel bio "Although the Mandarin has no natural superhuman powers of his own, he is a superb athlete with tremendous skill in the various Oriental martial arts. Through repeated practice he has toughened all the striking surfaces of his body, especially his hands, which are covered with thick callus. Without artificial aids he can split wood, cinderblock, or even mild steel with a blow of his hand. When he surrounds himself with a thin but intense protective force field, he can even split Iron Man's magnetic-beam reenforced alloy armor with repeated blows of his hand."

Just don't believe what some people say. ^^

thanos-prime
laughing

leonidas
hmm, it wasn't logan i was recalling, it was psylocke and in h2h she did quite well against him the first time--he was pretending to be slaymaster--and the second time he overpowered her but she got in a good shot before he flipped her. i don't think his martial skills are light years beyond the highest street guys, though his chi and striking power are obviously very high. anyway, no i def don't see this as a stomp.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, it wasn't logan i was recalling, it was psylocke and in h2h she did quite well against him the first time--he was pretending to be slaymaster--and the second time he overpowered her but she got in a good shot before he flipped her. i don't think his martial skills are light years beyond the highest street guys, though his chi and striking power are obviously very high. anyway, no i def don't see this as a stomp.

thumb up

Jim Lees run of the X-Man?

Bentley
Psylocke is weaksauce.

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not doubting mandy's skill. i'm saying that there is support that bats could certainly fight him and do well. be good to see mandarin go against another uber martial guy. damaging tony's all well and good, but tony is not the most skilled fighter so judging his skill level is not as easy as saying--he hurt tony so he must be the uberest fighter ever. Batman can't fight Iron Man and tear apart his suit with his bare hands. Let's not delude ourselves. Tony Stark's martial arts abilities have absolutely nothing to do with Mandarin's H2H skill. Captain America, even before Iron Man used his own recordings of his career against him in Civil War, was never able to beat down Iron Man in his armor with his fists the way Mandarin has. There's a reason Mandarin is able to do this with his bare hands. Because he is just that skilled. Originally posted by leonidas
i highly doubt for example if he fought cap or logan or iron fist h2h that mandarin would beat them down. in fact, i thought he DID fight one of them somewhere but i can't recall who or where. ............... a scan was already posted showing Mandarin overwhelming Captain America with his superhuman karate on the very first page of this thread.

Wolverine's never fought Mandarin in H2H. He did sneak up behind him once while Psylocke engaged him in telepathic struggle. Which was only after Mandarin made short work of Psylocke once he grew angry at her impertinence to engage him in a fight. In a comic that quite literally states his "martial prowess is second to none":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin15.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin16.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin17.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin18.jpg

Mandarin isn't some featless sh1t with one-off appearances. This has been his entire career. And to punctuate the point, even jinzin and srankmissingnin know he outclasses Wolverine. What exactly is there to argue at this point beyond deconstructing butthurt trolls?

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
thumb up He is good no one doubts it but guys like CA, Logan, Batman are above him in the MA department.

His powers and feats come mostly from his Rings.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/68727/1285169-mikefichera__mandarinringsuni.jpg

The grant him even something like "Superspeed"
They can enchance their wearer and iirc he even got some "Dragonhands" for some time. It's undisputable that his Body and his skills and so all his feats are amped by the rings.

Here a quote from his marvel bio "Although the Mandarin has no natural superhuman powers of his own, he is a superb athlete with tremendous skill in the various Oriental martial arts. Through repeated practice he has toughened all the striking surfaces of his body, especially his hands, which are covered with thick callus. Without artificial aids he can split wood, cinderblock, or even mild steel with a blow of his hand. When he surrounds himself with a thin but intense protective force field, he can even split Iron Man's magnetic-beam reenforced alloy armor with repeated blows of his hand."

Just don't believe what some people say. ^^ This is how you try to lowball Mandarin's martial arts abilities? WITH BIOS? Are you phucking kidding me? Excuse me while I laugh my way out of this thread:

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/lol/grand/Jack-Nicholson-lol-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-1658.gif

No wait, another thing; the only time Mandarin has ever speedblitzed anyone is when he was both ringless and handless and held in prison for years without food, water or sleep as posted before: Originally posted by ODG
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin03.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin05.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin04.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin06.jpg This isn't rocket science. This is just people who don't know wtf they're talking about and trying to worm their way out of being called out on it.

Batman-Prime
^I proved you wrong, live with it and go on boy, just stop lying and misleading people with selected scans. Thanks for playing ^^.

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^I proved you wrong, live with it and go on boy, just stop lying and misleading people with selected scans. Thanks for playing ^^. Well at this point, you've already been called out on your butthurt, your useless resentment, your inability to read comics, your complete reliance on bios (BWAHHAHAHAHA), and your general overall sh1tty attitude.

By all means, I suppose being a complete bald-faced liar is the only way you'll stay relevant. Then again:

http://i.imgur.com/q2cziBE.gif

Batman-Prime
^nice gif, you are really hurt and upset. Sorry, not my intention to educate teenagers on forums smile.

StyleTime
Mandarin wins. Surprised this went on for 4 pages honestly.

ODG
^ The ignorance would almost be offensive if it wasn't so hilarious. Then again, Mandarin isn't really that well known. The behavior though, in the face of clear scans of on-panel feats, dozens of them, is just pure comedy gold. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^nice gif, you are really hurt and upset. Sorry, not my intention to educate teenagers on forums smile. Why would I be hurt and upset over revealing what a stupendous buffoon you've been in this thread? This made my proverbial day (it really didn't because nobody gives a sh1t about you, but whatever).

Bentley
So I take that the prison scene doesn't have Mandarin with rings graften into his spine?

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
Batman can't fight Iron Man and tear apart his suit with his bare hands. Let's not delude ourselves. Tony Stark's martial arts abilities have absolutely nothing to do with Mandarin's H2H skill. Captain America, even before Iron Man used his own recordings of his career against him in Civil War, was never able to beat down Iron Man in his armor with his fists the way Mandarin has. There's a reason Mandarin is able to do this with his bare hands. Because he is just that skilled. ............... a scan was already posted showing Mandarin overwhelming Captain America with his superhuman karate on the very first page of this thread.

Wolverine's never fought Mandarin in H2H. He did sneak up behind him once while Psylocke engaged him in telepathic struggle. Which was only after Mandarin made short work of Psylocke once he grew angry at her impertinence to engage him in a fight. In a comic that quite literally states his "martial prowess is second to none":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin15.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin16.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin17.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin18.jpg

Mandarin isn't some featless sh1t with one-off appearances. This has been his entire career. And to punctuate the point, even jinzin and srankmissingnin know he outclasses Wolverine. What exactly is there to argue at this point beyond deconstructing butthurt trolls?

i'll assume the whole butthurt thing was directed at someone else. anyway, you're right, bats wouldn't take apart the armor like mandarin did, but there's no guarantee he'd be able to hit someone like bats or logan or dd, or the other uber martial guys like he could tee off against tony. the fight would be completely different. in that first scan you posted, cap also said that he wasn't even sure if his SHIELD could take another hit...... i'm willing to wager that a rematch between them wouldn't go the same way. mandarin has some level of superhuman stats so i'd take him to win this fight eventually, but i don't think it would be easy. i'm not going to get into comparing who bats has fought and beaten that can also strike with superhuman force, cap has even better showings against people who hit as hard.

my point is, his straight h2h SKILL isn't so overwhelming that others can't match or beat him in straight h2h imo. his skill plus superhuman stats makes him more formidable than most martial guys, not his skill alone. take away his chi amping and go just skills, and i wouldn't place him definitively above the others i've mentioned at all. here's his first fight against psylocke:

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6496/s72t.jpg

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http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2750/k0uy.jpg

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http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8071/bsif.jpg

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http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3555/iq8y.jpg

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mandy wins, but i don't think it's because he's more skilled. his skilled coupled with his personal power is too much. i'd say it's a pretty dead-heat between rand and mandarin and in terms of pure skill and we have a good idea where danny ranks.

ODG
Originally posted by Bentley
So I take that the prison scene doesn't have Mandarin with rings graften into his spine? No, it doesn't. Those henchmen present Mandarin with the rings in a box and try to get him out of his funk. Mandarin ignores them until they move to kill him. I just realized that I posted the scans out of order. This is the proper order:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin03.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin04.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin05.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin06.jpg

And you see the rings being presented in the second scan, then put away in the third scan into the same box just before Mandarin basically speedblitzes them (handless and bound by chains).

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
i'll assume the whole butthurt thing was directed at someone else. anyway, you're right, bats wouldn't take apart the armor like mandarin did, but there's no guarantee he'd be able to hit someone like bats or logan or dd, or the other uber martial guys like he could tee off against tony. the fight would be completely different. in that first scan you posted, cap also said that he wasn't even sure if his SHIELD could take another hit...... i'm willing to wager that a rematch between them wouldn't go the same way. mandarin has some level of superhuman stats so i'd take him to win this fight eventually, but i don't think it would be easy. i'm not going to get into comparing who bats has fought and beaten that can also strike with superhuman force, cap has even better showings against people who hit as hard. The butthurt comments are not directed at you. It's obvious who they're directed at. The level of martial arts mastery that Mandarin has is well above anything people like Batman, Wolverine and Cap can achieve. None of these esteemed fighters can chop steel doors with ease or rip apart Iron Man in straight H2H. That's all you need to know. Originally posted by leonidas
my point is, his straight h2h SKILL isn't so overwhelming that others can't match or beat him in straight h2h imo. his skill plus superhuman stats makes him more formidable than most martial guys, not his skill alone. take away his chi amping and go just skills, and i wouldn't place him definitively above the others i've mentioned at all. here's his first fight against psylocke:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/s72t.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/k0uy.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/bsif.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/30/iq8y.jpg You should re-read that issue more closely. Because that "fight" was a hologram ruse to turn Psylocke over under the Hand's and Mandarin's control. It's a complete non-fight as Mandarin never even fought her there. He wasn't even participating in the hologram. He was standing around watching monitors and sh1t:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin20.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin19.jpg

So basically, you need to focus on their "second" fight -- which is their only actual fight -- where Mandarin basically shat on Psylocke when she tried to engage him in H2H. Originally posted by leonidas
mandy wins, but i don't think it's because he's more skilled. his skilled coupled with his personal power is too much. i'd say it's a pretty dead-heat between rand and mandarin and in terms of pure skill and we have a good idea where danny ranks. It's by skill that Mandarin achieves his superhuman karate feats. He is obviously more skilled than Batman, Wolverine or Captain America. Because they cannot achieve what he can with bare hands. And since your conception seemed to be largely based on ignoring Captain America being overwhelmed and misreading a non-fight holo-deck session that Mandarin wasn't even inside of, I'd say you need to rethink things more carefully.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
The butthurt comments are not directed at you. It's obvious who they're directed at. The level of martial arts mastery that Mandarin has is well above anything people like Batman, Wolverine and Cap can achieve. None of these esteemed fighters can chop steel doors with ease or rip apart Iron Man in straight H2H. That's all you need to know. You should re-read that issue more closely. Because that "fight" was a hologram ruse to turn Psylocke over under the Hand's and Mandarin's control. It's a complete non-fight as Mandarin never even fought her there. He wasn't even participating in the hologram. He was standing around watching monitors and sh1t:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/th_Mandarin19.jpg

So basically, you need to focus on their "second" fight -- which is their only actual fight -- where Mandarin basically shat on Psylocke when she tried to engage him in H2H. It's by skill that Mandarin achieves his superhuman karate feats. He is obviously more skilled than Batman, Wolverine or Captain America. Because they cannot achieve what he can with bare hands. And since your conception seemed to be largely based on ignoring Captain America being overwhelmed and misreading a non-fight holo-deck session that Mandarin wasn't even inside of, I'd say you need to rethink things more carefully.

ah, i stand rebuffed on their first fight. what i get for relying purely on memory and not rereading the book.

i still disagree with your overall premise however. i wouldn't say danny is definitively more skilled than cap or logan or bp or bats either, and yet it is because of his 'skill' that he has achieved the mastery of his chi that he has. the same thing applies to mandarin imo. i'm legitimately curious: danny can do every bit as much damage as mandarin can, and has feats at least his equal. would you say mandarin would beat down danny in a battle of pure skill?

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
ah, i stand rebuffed on their first fight. what i get for relying purely on memory and not rereading the book.

i still disagree with your overall premise however. i wouldn't say danny is definitively more skilled than cap or logan or bp or bats either, and yet it is because of his 'skill' that he has achieved the mastery of his chi that he has. the same thing applies to mandarin imo. i'm legitimately curious: danny can do every bit as much damage as mandarin can, and has feats at least his equal. would you say mandarin would beat down danny in a battle of pure skill? Mandarin would have beaten up classic Danny something fierce, as Danny couldn't do sh1t against weaker versions of Iron Man:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Iron%20Man%20Fights%20G-M/th_IronManvsIronFist01IronFist1.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Iron%20Man%20Fights%20G-M/th_IronManvsIronFist02.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Iron%20Man%20Fights%20G-M/th_IronManvsIronFist03.jpg

That's pretty much the worst loss of his career. And an apt example of a master martial artist that easily rivals, if not surpasses Batman in skill, trying to fight Iron Man in straight H2H and failing spectacularly. And this was at a time when Danny was embarrassing Wolverine and defeating Sabretooth while weakened and blind. These days? As the Immortal Iron Fist? Danny's got a better chance, or he's capable of beating Mandarin straight up.

But what does it matter exactly? Both Mandarin and the Immortal Iron Fist would beat the sh1t out of Batman, Wolverine and Captain America in pure H2H.

Galan007
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/68727/1285169-mikefichera__mandarinringsuni.jpg Lol.

I'm pretty sure the writers ran out of ideas for decent powers after, like, the 5th ring, and just went with any random crap they could come up with after that. Influence? Daimonic? The Liar? Lulz.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
Mandarin would have beaten up classic Danny something fierce, as Danny couldn't do sh1t against weaker versions of Iron Man:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Iron%20Man%20Fights%20G-M/th_IronManvsIronFist01IronFist1.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Iron%20Man%20Fights%20G-M/th_IronManvsIronFist02.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Iron%20Man%20Fights%20G-M/th_IronManvsIronFist03.jpg

That's pretty much the worst loss of his career. And an apt example of a master martial artist that easily rivals, if not surpasses Batman in skill, trying to fight Iron Man in straight H2H and failing spectacularly. And this was at a time when Danny was embarrassing Wolverine and defeating Sabretooth while weakened and blind. These days? As the Immortal Iron Fist? Danny's got a better chance, or he's capable of beating Mandarin straight up.

But what does it matter exactly? Both Mandarin and the Immortal Iron Fist would beat the sh1t out of Batman, Wolverine and Captain America in pure H2H.

we have vastly different opinions of "couldn't do sh!t to IM". IM has also beaten the crap out of mandarin, so IM's beating danny ultimately isn't anything he hasn't done to mandarin as well. i disagree mandy would have wrecked even that version of danny and needless to say i don't think in terms of skill that danny's on a level that surpasses those others by very much if at all. this is getting off-topic, but i think it's still relevant to the issue of skill vs power so which of his (danny's) recent battles would you use to suggest that in straight up skill danny has definitively surpassed someone like cap in particular?

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
we have vastly different opinions of "couldn't do sh!t to IM". IM has also beaten the crap out of mandarin, so IM's beating danny ultimately isn't anything he hasn't done to mandarin as well. Yes, Iron Man has beaten up Mandarin because he's a pretty useless supervillain. Mandarin still outclasses Batman in H2H something fierce. I understand that your straight denial that Mandarin would beat up classic Iron Fist is based on completely nothing and in glaring contravention to the most apt comparative performance we can look at against Iron Man.

Obviously, it makes classic Iron Fist look like sh1t. But sometimes that's just how it plays out. After all, Mandarin has basically crapped on Captain America and Psylocke directly with his karate. Originally posted by leonidas
i disagree mandy would have wrecked even that version of danny and needless to say i don't think in terms of skill that danny's on a level that surpasses those others by very much if at all. I understand that your straight denial that Mandarin would beat up classic Iron Fist is based on completely nothing and in glaring contravention to the most apt comparative performance we can look at here with Iron Man. I also understand that your opinion of classic Danny's comparable, if not superior, skill to Wolverine, Cap and Batman completely ignores all the fights classic Danny has against that level of foes where he's almost always exhausted or handicapped in some way and can still throw down, if not outright win. Originally posted by leonidas
this is getting off-topic, but i think it's still relevant to the issue of skill vs power so which of his (danny's) recent battles would you use to suggest that in straight up skill danny has definitively surpassed someone like cap in particular? Even if you haven't read any Immortal Iron Fist, I'm pretty sure you've read enough of Bendis' New Avengers to figure that out for yourself. Danny wasn't lacking for appearances or feats and the clear upgrades in skill, powers, and overall power he received during his Immortal Iron Fist run, isn't a discussion I care to revisit again.

His fight with the Iron Fist Killer though -- a being who defeated every single Iron Fist other than Orson Randall, was strong enough to slug it out toe-to-toe with Luke Cage, was fast enough to casually dodge bullets in bullet-time, who's teeth could actually penetrate Luke Cage's unbreakable skin -- is a feat that stands out. Considering he defeated him without using Shou Lao's chi. His fight with Gorgon too.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
Yes, Iron Man has beaten up Mandarin because he's a pretty useless supervillain. Mandarin still outclasses Batman in H2H something fierce. I understand that your straight denial that Mandarin would beat up classic Iron Fist is based on completely nothing and in glaring contravention to the most apt comparative performance we can look at against Iron Man.

Obviously, it makes classic Iron Fist look like sh1t. But sometimes that's just how it plays out. After all, Mandarin has basically crapped on Captain America and Psylocke directly with his karate. I understand that your straight denial that Mandarin would beat up classic Iron Fist is based on completely nothing and in glaring contravention to the most apt comparative performance we can look at here with Iron Man. I also understand that your opinion of classic Danny's comparable, if not superior, skill to Wolverine, Cap and Batman completely ignores all the fights classic Danny has against that level of foes where he's almost always exhausted or handicapped in some way and can still throw down, if not outright win. Even if you haven't read any Immortal Iron Fist, I'm pretty sure you've read enough of Bendis' New Avengers to figure that out for yourself. Danny wasn't lacking for appearances or feats and the clear upgrades in skill, powers, and overall power he received during his Immortal Iron Fist run, isn't a discussion I care to revisit again.

His fight with the Iron Fist Killer though -- a being who defeated every single Iron Fist other than Orson Randall, was strong enough to slug it out toe-to-toe with Luke Cage, was fast enough to casually dodge bullets in bullet-time, who's teeth could actually penetrate Luke Cage's unbreakable skin -- is a feat that stands out. Considering he defeated him without using Shou Lao's chi. His fight with Gorgon too.

and i understand that you're saying danny's ultimate defeat at IM's hands is far more significant and indicative of the relative skills of danny and mandarin, than are any of mandarin's countless defeats at IM's hands because......mandarin is a villain. no expression

anyway. mandy has some good feats against IM. cap has some good ones against namor, hulk, etc, daredevil beat up diamond creel, bp one shot karnak. but like you, that is not a discussion or direction i wish to revisit. suffice to say i still disagree with your stance on his skill level. there is no way imo that in straight h2h mandarin would wreck cap, or bats, or any of the others in that category. he might beat most, but it would be on account of his overall power advantage and not his straight up skill. there are entire threads dedicated to danny vs all those others, so i think it is fair to say your stance on his skill superiority relative to those others is also debatable to say the least.

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
and i understand that you're saying danny's ultimate defeat at IM's hands is far more significant and indicative of the relative skills of danny and mandarin, than are any of mandarin's countless defeats at IM's hands because......mandarin is a villain. no expression Because we're not discussing Mandarin's track record against Iron Man. We're discussing his H2H skills which are in full display when he fights a foe like Iron Man. You can move all the goalposts you want, but you've already tried to argue that Mandarin isn't much above any other top tier martial artists because Iron Man can't be used as a control case. Except that you have a whole bunch of other top tier martial artists (like Cap and Iron Fist) trying to engage Iron Man in H2H and they can't do sh1t. The same way Batman wouldn't be able to do sh1t with straight fisticuffs.

There's a reason Mandarin and Temugin are the only martial arts masters who have wrecked Iron Man in straight H2H. It's not because Iron Man jobbed to them. And there's a reason why this forum as a whole has historically placed them in a MA skill tier above Batman, Cap and Wolverine. Originally posted by leonidas
anyway. mandy has some good feats against IM. cap has some good ones against namor, hulk, etc, daredevil beat up diamond creel, bp one shot karnak. but like you, that is not a discussion or direction i wish to revisit. suffice to say i still disagree with your stance on his skill level. there is no way imo that in straight h2h mandarin would wreck cap, or bats, or any of the others in that category. he might beat most, but it would be on account of his overall power advantage and not his straight up skill. there are entire threads dedicated to danny vs all those others, so i think it is fair to say your stance on his skill superiority relative to those others is also debatable to say the least. I understand that your opinion is largely based on ignoring Captain America and Psylocke being overwhelmed in H2H and ignoring pretty much every single Mandarin skill feat ever that other top tier martial artists can't match in scope, much less in number.

Not exactly a method of reading or discussing comics that I would endorse.

cdtm
Originally posted by ODG
Mandarin would have beaten up classic Danny something fierce, as Danny couldn't do sh1t against weaker versions of Iron Man:

He did manage to stagger him, which isn't as good as what Mandarin could do, but still pretty impressive by street standards.

Claremont's writing of Danny was kind of sketchy, though. He'd write him really over the top, to the point of nuking a city (Or at least a city block), and ripping through super robots that Cage only hurt his knuckles against, and knocking out Warhawk (Who had steel hard skin and stats like Cage, but also looked like metal because he got his powers from an earlier process then Cage..) with non Iron Fist blows. Yet, he also wrote Danny as being unable to knock Cage out with his best Iron Fist, or damage Iron Man's armor... (Something Cage did manage to do in his brief fight with Iron Man, even if it wasn't serious damage..)

Now Priest, his Iron Fist was a beast.. Vibranium suit shredder who could have taken Cage's head clean off, knocked out a guy who overpowered Thor, and staggered a dragon who shrugged off surface to air missiles.. He'd be a better match for Mandarin, imo.

cdtm
And Mandarin wins, I think.

Unless he uses the Batkick. Did we ban the Batkick yet?

Daredevil1
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It did happen. But there was context, Tony used armor's device to calculate how to block perfectly. Mandarin got better in later stories, as stated by himself...


Well being the martial art expert that Mandarin is. I'm sure he learned from that mistake and got better to target areas that are vulnerable as vulnerable can be anyways. It is Ironman after all.


But I knew I remember him hurting himself "badly" once(someone posted that scan a long time ago). Mandarin is impressive though, for sure.


Kind of like Shang Chi targeting that knee cap of that Robot that worked well with Ex-Nilho(or however you spell his name). Target vulnerable areas.

dial J for Josh
Pshh all of you underestimating the mandarin is blasphemy. At the least he is trans, because none of you know who he is...... You will neveeeeeeer see him coming.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
Because we're not discussing Mandarin's track record against Iron Man. We're discussing his H2H skills which are in full display when he fights a foe like Iron Man. You can move all the goalposts you want, but you've already tried to argue that Mandarin isn't much above any other top tier martial artists because Iron Man can't be used as a control case. Except that you have a whole bunch of other top tier martial artists (like Cap and Iron Fist) trying to engage Iron Man in H2H and they can't do sh1t. The same way Batman wouldn't be able to do sh1t with straight fisticuffs.

There's a reason Mandarin and Temugin are the only martial arts masters who have wrecked Iron Man in straight H2H. It's not because Iron Man jobbed to them. And there's a reason why this forum as a whole has historically placed them in a MA skill tier above Batman, Cap and Wolverine. I understand that your opinion is largely based on ignoring Captain America and Psylocke being overwhelmed in H2H and ignoring pretty much every single Mandarin skill feat ever that other top tier martial artists can't match in scope, much less in number.

Not exactly a method of reading or discussing comics that I would endorse.

and i understand that your entire stance essentially boils down to this: mandarin has performed consistently well (but consistently lost) against a physically superior opponent who is vastly less skilled than he is, and that you're attributing his defeats to the fact that mandarin is a villain. not a stance i'd endorse. you've even gone so far as to appeal to the forum's stance at large to support your stance--very un-odg-like, that.... i also understand you're deifying mandy's feats against IM, while ignoring all the other popular martial guys' feats against vastly superior physical opponents.

but, you're right, no other martial artist has damaged tony consistently like mandy has, but, if you want to go the "villain" route, there is the equally shaky logic that would say no other martial artist has fought tony nearly as often. there is also the fact that mandarin has super strength which....is kind of important. you claim he is SO skilled he chi amps. well, danny chi amps. shang chi amps. is shang now in the 'unearthly tier' as well? VASTLY more skilled than guys like cap or bp?

and to be clear--i'm NOT arguing that mandy is NOT extremely skilled. clearly he is. i DO take issue with the fact that you--and apparently "the whole forum"--places him on a completely different level skill-wise from guys like bp, bats, cap, dd, logan, etc....and the reason for it is that he can chi amp and damage tony--tony, who, relatively speaking, is an unskilled noob. and you keep bringing up psylocke--in the second battle, she DID get in powerful kick and had him in a hold before he tossed her. he was clearly far stronger than she was and it was more strength than skill imo that let him overpower her. not exactly an unearthly showing for him skill-wise. imo.

cap (as a quick example) has done well against namor, among others. i'd say the physical disparity between them>>the physical disparity between IM/mandarin. many of the popular martial guys have several feats against vastly superior opponents (maybe not tony in particular, but that doesn't make their own feats against people who greatly overpower them physically any less impressive) so i don't get why mandy's good feats (even though he loses in the end) somehow magically elevate him to levels far exceeding guys LIKE cap. and no, i do NOT put much stock in a 40yr old scan that has cap concerned that mandarin might break his shield. but please continue to repeat your mantra for your adoring fans. call me crazy, but i'm thinking if mandy fought cap NOW in h2h combat, that fight might go....a little differently.

then, after telling me that mandarin himself is so far beyond the likes of cap et al, you THEN say danny can beat him and is likely more skilled than even mandarin. so now danny>unearthly tier?? yeah, i'll not be buying that anytime soon, and honestly, that stance really weakens your overall opinion in my mind. we've seen countless battles among danny and his peers, and in terms of sheer skill (not amping power or physical stats, pure skill) he is NOT definitively above them. the entire collective weights of the others, as well as danny's own history against them, support that notion.

to sum up--i do not think mandarin's skill can be accurately stated to be levels beyond the popular martial guys based solely on his performance against a single, superior foe, who is vastly inferior to him skill-wise. the others have similarly impressive showings against similarly powered foes--and most lack mandarin's superhuman advantages. just because it is not against tony in particular, doesn't degrade the feats. imo mandarin is on the same general level (skill-wise) as guys like danny, cap, bats, bp, dd, etc with any differences between their h2h skill being relatively small and very much debatable. mandarin would win more than he'd lose against this level of opponent though, because he is more powerful than most, not because he is so "vastly" more skilled than they are. imo. 'pologies for the text dump, just wanted my stance to be as clear as possible.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
And Mandarin wins, I think.

Unless he uses the Batkick. Did we ban the Batkick yet?

We didn't, but DC did with their reset.

Igniz
Originally posted by ODG
Mandarin doesn't use his rings to amp his hands. If you had ever read a single Iron Man comic, you might know this. There might be one scene where he does and it's all glowy and stuff. But neither Mandarin, nor Iron Man, nor the comics have ever attributed Mandarin's superhuman karate to his rings.

thumb up

The rings were never stated to amp Mandarin's Karate chops.The rings were often employed more on long range assaults.His inhuman striking power was more attributed to his mastery of chi energy.The guy survived for years without food and water.Again a testament to his mastery of chi energy.Which is part of his skill set.

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
and i understand that your entire stance essentially boils down to this: mandarin has performed consistently well (but consistently lost) against a physically superior opponent who is vastly less skilled than he is, and that you're attributing his defeats to the fact that mandarin is a villain. not a stance i'd endorse. you've even gone so far as to appeal to the forum's stance at large to support your stance--very un-odg-like, that.... i also understand you're deifying mandy's feats against IM, while ignoring all the other popular martial guys' feats against vastly superior physical opponents. My position is that Mandarin's H2H skill is superior to Batman, Captain America and Wolverine, because he can actually consistently beat up Iron Man in his armor with straight H2H. Which they can't. After all, Cap, Iron Fist, and even Psylocke once tried fighting Iron Man in H2H and they utterly failed.

Pointing out that srankmissingnin and jinzin wouldn't even argue against Mandarin's superior skill over Wolverine is just punctuation on how ridiculous it is to even argue otherwise. If it's that clear to them, you should ask yourself what exactly is keeping you from this opinion.

Because from where I stand, it's just stubbornness and a preconceived notion whose bases were already shattered in this very thread. Originally posted by leonidas
but, you're right, no other martial artist has damaged tony consistently like mandy has, but, if you want to go the "villain" route, there is the equally shaky logic that would say no other martial artist has fought tony nearly as often. there is also the fact that mandarin has super strength which....is kind of important. you claim he is SO skilled he chi amps. well, danny chi amps. shang chi amps. is shang now in the 'unearthly tier' as well? VASTLY more skilled than guys like cap or bp? Temugin has consistently damaged Iron Man. And Captain America has fought Iron Man just as often as Mandarin. And he has commented multiple times that he has no chance in a H2H fight against him. So this is another red herring that, unfortunately, only serves to bolster Mandarin. Shang Chi doesn't consistently destroy steel with his bare hands in pretty much every appearance he's in. Neither did classic Iron Fist. Neither of whom have any relevance in this conversation beyond you trying to force them like a square peg into a round hole. Originally posted by leonidas
and to be clear--i'm NOT arguing that mandy is NOT extremely skilled. clearly he is. i DO take issue with the fact that you--and apparently "the whole forum"--places him on a completely different level skill-wise from guys like bp, bats, cap, dd, logan, etc....and the reason for it is that he can chi amp and damage tony--tony, who, relatively speaking, is an unskilled noob. and you keep bringing up psylocke--in the second battle, she DID get in powerful kick and had him in a hold before he tossed her. he was clearly far stronger than she was and it was more strength than skill imo that let him overpower her. not exactly an unearthly showing for him skill-wise. imo. Tony may be unskilled relatively speaking, but his armor was more than good enough to beat the sh1t out of Captain America, Iron Fist and Psylocke without even trying. Because their H2H isn't good enough to be anything but a nuisance. Mandarin's H2H is. This isn't rocket science. It's literally hitting you smack in the face. And Mandarin tossed Psylocke aside like the nuisance she was once he lost his patience. I've no doubt that other martial artists may ineffectually kick Mandarin once and then get beaten immediately in one swift move like a flea. Trying to hold Mandarin's arrogance with Psylocke against him is like holding Batman and Daredevil accountable for every two-bit thug that managed to smack them upside the head. Not exactly top tier showings when a normal crook manages to hit them, eh? Eh? EH? Then again, if we were being at all intelligent about it, we'd both admit outright that doesn't mean sh1t since we know that Batman, Daredevil and Mandarin clean up business in the end.

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
cap (as a quick example) has done well against namor, among others. i'd say the physical disparity between them>>the physical disparity between IM/mandarin. many of the popular martial guys have several feats against vastly superior opponents (maybe not tony in particular, but that doesn't make their own feats against people who greatly overpower them physically any less impressive) so i don't get why mandy's good feats (even though he loses in the end) somehow magically elevate him to levels far exceeding guys LIKE cap. and no, i do NOT put much stock in a 40yr old scan that has cap concerned that mandarin might break his shield. but please continue to repeat your mantra for your adoring fans. call me crazy, but i'm thinking if mandy fought cap NOW in h2h combat, that fight might go....a little differently.

then, after telling me that mandarin himself is so far beyond the likes of cap et al, you THEN say danny can beat him and is likely more skilled than even mandarin. so now danny>unearthly tier?? yeah, i'll not be buying that anytime soon, and honestly, that stance really weakens your overall opinion in my mind. we've seen countless battles among danny and his peers, and in terms of sheer skill (not amping power or physical stats, pure skill) he is NOT definitively above them. the entire collective weights of the others, as well as danny's own history against them, support that notion. When Cap fights Namor, it isn't accompanied with multiple thought bubbles and narration of Namor thinking, "I must avoid the Captain's punches!!!! I may not survive another blow like that!!!" N1gga, please. Cap versus Namor is David versus Goliath. And anybody who's ever read one of their fights knows this. Mandarin or Temugin versus Iron Man in straight H2H isn't David versus Goliath. Why? Because Mandarin's and Temugin's H2H is just that good. And other martial artists who have tried to fight Iron Man aren't.... which (surprise!) includes Cap.

The Immortal Iron Fist rivals if not surpasses Mandarin's superhuman karate. Learn to read what I said. Because that was the import you should have taken from my statement that "These days? As the Immortal Iron Fist? Danny's got a better chance, or he's capable of beating Mandarin straight up." I didn't suggest in the slightest that Danny transcends Mandarin completely. You're pretty awful at twisting other people's words. Stick to irrelevant red herrings, because your straw-mans are both inept and witless.

Also, when Cap can punch a Helicarrier, let us know. Otherwise, you're just making false distinctions that are completely irrelevant. Acting like the Iron Fist technique isn't a matter of skill is pretty stupid. Like, it's so stupidly transparent that you're trying to parse these characters' defining martial arts to separate out their feats whilst ignoring that Danny didn't achieve such power by birth or mutation. He earned it through training, discipline and by studying the martial arts of Kun Lun. This is skill. To be able to hit harder and more effectively. Like Temugin being able to hit harder than Cap, despite them both using chi on-panel. Temugin just uses his chi to much greater effect, because he is more skilled.

You want to argue that utilizing your chi has nothing to do with skill, make that argument in another thread where it's relevant and where it's likely to be laughed right out of this forum. It has no place in this discussion. Originally posted by leonidas
to sum up--i do not think mandarin's skill can be accurately stated to be levels beyond the popular martial guys Based on absolutely nothing and in direct contravention to all of Mandarin's skill feats, of which he has many. We know this already about you. *yawn*

Mandarin can fight Iron Man with his bare hands, something Batman, Cap, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. clearly can't do. Mandarin's overwhelmed Cap and Psylocke on-panel with his karate. Mandarin demonstrates multiple feats of inhuman skill derived from his karate that none of the other so-called top tier comic martial artist streets can do, i.e., shatter steel casually, live for years without food, water or sleep, wreck Iron Man's armor, etc.

Somehow, Mandarin -- who accomplishes greater feats with his superhuman karate skills, on a consistent basis all the way from the 60s to the 00s -- isn't a greater martial artist. So what exactly makes a greater martial artist other than having greater martial arts feats and overwhelming other martial artists on-panel? According to this conversation, a bat symbol, stars and stripes, and hollow red herrings. Excuse me while I laugh myself out of this discussion. Because the ignorance is starting to offend me.

SamZED
Serious question... is it purely a skill thing with Danny? I'm asking because I remember his Iron Fist's been stolen before. Or was it a onetime plot device?

ODG
^ That's two different questions. Danny cultivates and utilizes his chi through skill. There are opponents who can steal chi.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
When Cap fights Namor, it isn't accompanied with multiple thought bubbles and narration of Namor thinking, "I must avoid the Captain's punches!!!! I may not survive another blow like that!!!" N1gga, please. Cap versus Namor is David versus Goliath. And anybody who's ever read one of their fights knows this. Mandarin or Temugin versus Iron Man in straight H2H isn't David versus Goliath. Why? Because Mandarin's and Temugin's H2H is just that good. And other martial artists who have tried to fight Iron Man aren't.... which (surprise!) includes Cap.

The Immortal Iron Fist rivals if not surpasses Mandarin's superhuman karate. Learn to read what I said. Because that was the import you should have taken from my statement that "These days? As the Immortal Iron Fist? Danny's got a better chance, or he's capable of beating Mandarin straight up." I didn't suggest in the slightest that Danny transcends Mandarin completely. You're pretty awful at twisting other people's words. Stick to irrelevant red herrings, because your straw-mans are both inept and witless.

Also, when Cap can punch a Helicarrier, let us know. Otherwise, you're just making false distinctions that are completely irrelevant. Acting like the Iron Fist technique isn't a matter of skill is pretty stupid. Like, it's so stupidly transparent that you're trying to parse these characters' defining martial arts to separate out their feats whilst ignoring that Danny didn't achieve such power by birth or mutation. He earned it through training, discipline and by studying the martial arts of Kun Lun. This is skill. To be able to hit harder and more effectively. Like Temugin being able to hit harder than Cap, despite them both using chi on-panel. Temugin just uses his chi to much greater effect, because he is more skilled.

You want to argue that utilizing your chi has nothing to do with skill, make that argument in another thread where it's relevant and where it's likely to be laughed right out of this forum. It has no place in this discussion. Based on absolutely nothing and in direct contravention to all of Mandarin's skill feats, of which he has many. We know this already about you. *yawn*

Mandarin can fight Iron Man with his bare hands, something Batman, Cap, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. clearly can't do. Mandarin's overwhelmed Cap and Psylocke on-panel with his karate. Mandarin demonstrates multiple feats of inhuman skill derived from his karate that none of the other so-called top tier comic martial artist streets can do, i.e., shatter steel casually, live for years without food, water or sleep, wreck Iron Man's armor, etc.

Somehow, Mandarin -- who accomplishes greater feats with his superhuman karate skills, on a consistent basis all the way from the 60s to the 00s -- isn't a greater martial artist. So what exactly makes a greater martial artist other than having greater martial arts feats and overwhelming other martial artists on-panel? According to this conversation, a bat symbol, stars and stripes, and hollow red herrings. Excuse me while I laugh myself out of this discussion. Because the ignorance is starting to offend me.

and...............you think mandarin is so good because he can do well against a superior opponent even though he is superhumanly powerful to begin with. yes, we know this about you. *yawn*

especially well done playing down the other martial artists feats against even more superior foes with greater differences in relative power levels. and we all know that guys like cap and bp have NEVER fought against or defeated anyone who can (LE GASP!) break steel consistently with their bare hands!! david and goliath. lol and while we're handing out awards for witless-ness and ineptitude, i'd be remiss for not passing the award to you for so expertly and blatantly ignoring the little known fact that IM still consistently kicks mandarin's a$$ (because he's a villain). thumb up i should also give you the special I SPY prize, for so cleverly pointing out my attempted "false distinction" as relates to SKILL, something i only stated i was discussing, like, 100 times. tough slipping anything past you......

but don't worry, you came across very clearly. IF, despite all his showings, past and present, is greater than mandarin who is like, a gazillion times better than captain america in h2h combat. despite the fact that mandarin has never even really FOUGHT another uber h2h guy, and the one he DID fight (not so uber) got in a great kick AND placed him in a hold before he powered out. all that and you didn't actually counter.....a thing. you just restated--he hurts IM so he must be the greatest!11! blah blah. cap and bats and dd and most others aside from shang and fist, don't have the levels of control over chi they have because they never studied one style so utterly. i wonder how many martial styles mandarin knows? hopefully one of these days one of the guys i've been talking about WILL face mandarin, then we will see for certain how truly skilled he is. until then, we'll keep our opinions.

anyway, you're appalled at my stupidity, i'm no less appalled by your own, you're not changing my mind so i'm a *bleep*, no YOU'RE a *bleep* because you won't change YOUR mind, yadda yadda, get your last word in, throw in some latin, mix in some insults and be done with it. the act is old, like the rush to insults is old, as is the cry of righteousness in doling them out. few people in the forum take so personally to being disagreed with. incidentally, i LOVE that you have appealed to both the forum at large AND srank and jin. lol i do believe that is a first and i'll count that as a victory of sorts. somewhere, gs and masters are shaking hands. adieu.

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
and...............you think mandarin is so good because he can do well against a superior opponent even though he is superhumanly powerful to begin with. yes, we know this about you. *yawn* Speak English, plz. Originally posted by leonidas
especially well done playing down the other martial artists feats against even more superior foes with greater differences in relative power levels. and we all know that guys like cap and bp have NEVER fought against or defeated anyone who can (LE GASP!) break steel consistently with their bare hands!! david and goliath. lol and while we're handing out awards for witless-ness and ineptitude, i'd be remiss for not passing the award to you for so expertly and blatantly ignoring the little known fact that IM still consistently kicks mandarin's a$$ (because he's a villain). thumb up i should also give you the special I SPY prize, for so cleverly pointing out my attempted "false distinction" as relates to SKILL, something i only stated i was discussing, like, 100 times. tough slipping anything past you...... I explained this pretty clearly before. Namor doesn't express trepidation or flee in fear of Cap's judo very time they fight. And Cap has never overwhelmed Namor with his martial arts. Cap can't even overwhelm Iron Man. Heck, he completely underwhelms Iron Man. Iron Man is, however, acutely aware of how dangerous Mandarin's karate is. If you're too stubborn to admit outright the simple import of these facts, I'm not going to bother wrangling it out of you as if you were a child. Originally posted by leonidas
but don't worry, you came across very clearly. I know it does. Because of how obvious everything I am saying is. Originally posted by leonidas
IF, despite all his showings, past and present, is greater than mandarin who is like, a gazillion times better than captain america in h2h combat. Pretty sure I told you before that your strawmans are both inept and witless. Would I have gotten my point across better if I instead said your strawmans were witless and inept? Originally posted by leonidas
despite the fact that mandarin has never even really FOUGHT another uber h2h guy, and the one he DID fight (not so uber) got in a great kick AND placed him in a hold before he powered out. all that and you didn't actually counter.....a thing. you just restated--he hurts IM so he must be the greatest!11! blah blah. cap and bats and dd and most others aside from shang and fist, don't have the levels of control over chi they have because they never studied one style so utterly. i wonder how many martial styles mandarin knows? hopefully one of these days one of the guys i've been talking about WILL face mandarin, then we will see for certain how truly skilled he is. until then, we'll keep our opinions. Mandarin already overwhelmed Cap and Psylocke with his karate. Obviously these facts sting your soul. But I stopped caring. Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, you're appalled at my stupidity Yes, I am. Feel free to shut up now.

Batman-Prime
@leonidas, thumb up

So ok, IF and Mandarin have chi and are good at h2h. No one denies this but that doesn't mean they are up there with people like CA and Wolverine or Batman. Especially people like Batman and CA who rely mostly on their skills and no exotic superpowers like chi and Rings to survive and fight.

Sure IF can hit through Steel, Mandarin can do this too, with chi or his force field (from the rings) he can even damage Tonys armor with his hands. Does that mean he is a superior h2h fighter comapred to others? No. Bricks or Steel don't hit back and Tony is a lot but he is not one of the best MA in the World.
CA or Batman are however and without his Rings and his chi, it's doubful that he plays in their league.

Danny vs Wolverine without chi

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111119363/3145508-sparring+1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bfUnW6YU8Rs/TjuKvf8iE5I/AAAAAAAABJo/KS3ik30HA04/s1600/prv9420_pg4.jpg

Mandarin without Rings vs Ironman

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans13/IM100_Rings.jpg

Could CA or Batman beat IM with their bare hands? Probably not. But they are not fighting IM and it doesn't matter, they fight Mandarin. Sure his punches would hurt them but they tanked worse, from beings with superstrength who hit harder then mandarin. And what about Mandarin, he will feel their punches and can be ko by people with their strength and their skill, he will definitely feel THEIR hits.
In the end it comes down not to the person who can hit IM harder or break steel (BTW Batman destroys bricks and breaks trees with his kicks and punches, he also makes Grundy feel his hits with skill alone) but to the person who can tank or avoid more damage and hit the other more often and for this you need just pure skill. The better fighter wins. And Mandarin never fought anyone on their level h2h only to say he plays in their leauge.

As for the Rings amping him. Well, if they wouldn't he wouldn't be able to grow or change himself, he wouldn't be able to grow new hands which look like a dragons or shoot beams from his hands. They have an effect on their user and grant him superhuman powers/stats, that's obvious. Except of this, he hurt tony with the prothesis, well if there would be no external power protecting this prothesis when mandarin hit im it would most likely break because it should be inferior to IM armor. Well, it didn't and it's not a part of Mandarins hardened and trained body, which means that something had to keed it from being squished between IM armor and Mandarins stump.

It's wishful thinking and pure hate to place someone so high just because he can damage "doubful if unamped" IM armor. It's a pure h2h fight, skills vs skill and against the best there are.

Batmans striking power and skill are good enough to damage Mandarin
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1117052-batvsgrundy_sb.jpg

CA striking power and skills are equal
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9232/hulkvscap06.jpg
http://pic.fullcomic.net/comics/Z/zhuiluozhizi-meiguoduichang/zhuiluozhizi-meiguoduichangdi04hui/201206221633172999.jpg

So they will be able to do damage to Mandarin. Mandarin might be the master of Karate but it's a disadvantage to limit oneself to one style, CA and Batman know more styles and how to counter other, they will have the upper hand from the beginning. Batman even fought and could stand his ground against the best MA in comic history, KK who would shit all over Dany and Mandarin together, with skill and striking power.

Sure Kk wasn't himself but still deadly and as skilled, and sure Batman would have lost in the End.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3221162-7841715092-15120.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/654z9w.jpg

Batman-Prime
So what does the Mandarin have? superior striking power against steel or IM? He lacks the styles, the skills, the cunning in h2h, the experience to fight without powers, compared to the others etc. means he will lose, badly. Like Karnak did against BP.
Karnak has similar striking qualities like the Mandarin.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070408143257/marveldatabase/images/f/f8/Karnak_%28Earth-616%29_002.jpg
He can break steel, hurt superpowered beings, thanks to his training and meditation he will see every weak point.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/102298/2024206-cv_karnak_ability.jpg

And what happens when he fights someone who doesn't relys on "exotic" powers but more on skill?
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111271/3089915-2940907-576792_vsinh_super.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii265/scanscans/blz16al4.jpg
http://i12.tinypic.com/8f43gpu.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/59221/1769319-576791_blz18_super.jpg


The board has people resonable enough to see Mandarins h2h weaknes.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t585479.html

Daredevil1
Although I don't posses Mandarin main fights with Ironman in his solo books. I do have most of Mandarin appearances in TOS, Avengers, and Captain America. As I will admit in "these" showings he is a threat to Ironman but only because of the combo of his prep/tech, rings, thugs, superhuman strength, karate skill. But not just based on his hth skills alone.


For example here is the scene. Mandarin has weakened Ironman severley to make him believe he was much "stronger" then he really was. As Ironman figured out he couldn't really break his Ironman armour and made Mandarin hurt himself badly. Ironman won easily despite Mandarin weakening him with prep/hurting him with his rings.
https://imageshack.com/i/mq7pp7j

Another fight in TOS.

Again Ironman damaged from previously and bare handed as Tony knows he has no real weapons. Tony Goads Mandarin to fight him in HTH because if he uses his rings Tony is a goner. The outcome below as Mandarin notices his super karate can't do much to Ironman.
http://imageshack.com/a/img689/4443/lz1y.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img21/7941/1jum.jpg

Now these are true past showings. As I am unaware of how good currently Mandarin does against Ironman now a days. But it is obvious in this past his hth was simply not enough against a context weakened Ironman........"back" then anyways. He might do better in the more modern Ironman books, which I don't have.

Here Mandarin fights Cap longer then a one strike shield hit, which was a stalemate with Cap in that one. Here Mandarin doesn't really engage Steve in hand to hand and relies in his rings but Cap gets the better of him tactically. In a rings vs shield/environment match.
http://imageshack.com/a/img15/28/16w0.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img543/268/iupw.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img69/7631/hc56.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img812/2266/aq23.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img4/9616/6h36.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img689/9464/4prp.jpg

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol.

I'm pretty sure the writers ran out of ideas for decent powers after, like, the 5th ring, and just went with any random crap they could come up with after that. Influence? Daimonic? The Liar? Lulz. they were called different things in the 80's overly-detailed bio

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by psycho gundam
they were called different things in the 80's overly-detailed bio

Yeah, the new scan is from Fraction's one-shot.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol.

I'm pretty sure the writers ran out of ideas for decent powers after, like, the 5th ring, and just went with any random crap they could come up with after that. Influence? Daimonic? The Liar? Lulz.

If you put it this way, Madarin seems kind of lame ^^.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Although I don't posses Mandarin main fights with Ironman in his solo books. I do have most of Mandarin appearances in TOS, Avengers, and Captain America. As I will admit in "these" showings he is a threat to Ironman but only because of the combo of his prep/tech, rings, thugs, superhuman strength, karate skill. But not just based on his hth skills alone.


For example here is the scene. Mandarin has weakened Ironman severley to make him believe he was much "stronger" then he really was. As Ironman figured out he couldn't really break his Ironman armour and made Mandarin hurt himself badly. Ironman won easily despite Mandarin weakening him with prep/hurting him with his rings.
https://imageshack.com/i/mq7pp7j

Another fight in TOS.

Again Ironman damaged from previously and bare handed as Tony knows he has no real weapons. Tony Goads Mandarin to fight him in HTH because if he uses his rings Tony is a goner. The outcome below as Mandarin notices his super karate can't do much to Ironman.
http://imageshack.com/a/img689/4443/lz1y.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img21/7941/1jum.jpg

Now these are true past showings. As I am unaware of how good currently Mandarin does against Ironman now a days. But it is obvious in this past his hth was simply not enough against a context weakened Ironman........"back" then anyways. He might do better in the more modern Ironman books, which I don't have.

Here Mandarin fights Cap longer then a one strike shield hit, which was a stalemate with Cap in that one. Here Mandarin doesn't really engage Steve in hand to hand and relies in his rings but Cap gets the better of him tactically. In a rings vs shield/environment match.
http://imageshack.com/a/img15/28/16w0.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img543/268/iupw.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img69/7631/hc56.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img812/2266/aq23.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img4/9616/6h36.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img689/9464/4prp.jpg

thumb up Great scans. Thanks for the insight.

Branlor Swift
So, has everyone come to the realization that Batman wins easily yet?

Bentley
If not from my recent revelation that proved that Batman sucks at h2h, I'd be convinced by know.

Maybe the proof defending Mandarin exists, but apparently it's so evident that we should just shut up and accept it or we become apallingly stupid awesr

Wish Srank was around, at least he could be civil and make a point.

leonidas
Originally posted by Bentley
If not from my recent revelation that proved that Batman sucks at h2h, I'd be convinced by know.

Maybe the proof defending Mandarin exists, but apparently it's so evident that we should just shut up and accept it or we become apallingly stupid awesr

Wish Srank was around, at least he could be civil and make a point.

if you read the post you should know i was being a little faceitious, first off, and secondly..... pretty sure you know that's not what i meant. apparently though it IS fair to be considered inept and witless et al, for thinking the opposite because i don't particularly find mandarin's performances against IM to be so far and away superior to many others' feats against many other high level opponents? also pretty sure i made that point very civilly, while even apologizing for the text wall. i'm more than aware there are few if any who support my side of this, and that's fine. i don't find my own reasoning for thinking different illogical and recall i also said mandy DOES win. so, yeah. awesr

TheGodKiller
^Pretty sure that was a shot at OneDumbG0, not you.

Bentley
Originally posted by leonidas
if you read the post you should know i was being a little faceitious, first off, and secondly..... pretty sure you know that's not what i meant. apparently though it IS fair to be considered inept and witless et al, for thinking the opposite because i don't particularly find mandarin's performances against IM to be so far and away superior to many others' feats against many other high level opponents? also pretty sure i made that point very civilly, while even apologizing for the text wall. i'm more than aware there are few if any who support my side of this, and that's fine. i don't find my own reasoning for thinking different illogical and recall i also said mandy DOES win. so, yeah. awesr

I must overly suck at writing in English sad

TheGodKiller
^All lovesick puppies suck at writing in English. You only suck more because you're french. thumb up

leonidas
ah. i humbly apologize. not sure how to say i'm an idiot in french, but yeah, sorry bentley. anyway, glad it's not just me. embarrasment

Bentley
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^All lovesick puppies suck at writing in English. You only suck more because you're french. thumb up

That's... probably true in both accounts. You're certainly on a roll these days.

leonidas
he certainly is. but gk you never really gave an opinion. regardless, i'll respect it, but would you place mandy on the "unearthly" tier of h2h, levels above guys like cap et al? or....do you really just not give a sh!t about the topic one way or the other? lol

JBL
Mandarin would slaughter Batman in H2H combat.

Bentley
Originally posted by leonidas
he certainly is. but gk you never really gave an opinion. regardless, i'll respect it, but would you place mandy on the "unearthly" tier of h2h, levels above guys like cap et al? or....do you really just not give a sh!t about the topic one way or the other? lol


Mmmmh... I was under the impression that Mandy was more powerful in h2h, enough to beat Cap at least, but exactly how much above is pretty hard to gauge considering the comics I've read. Going by Temugin's fights, it should be clear that chi manipulation gives him a solid edge against regular martial artists. Is he more skilled? Probably not, I think that like with Wolverine, superior stats actually are explanatory for many of the great feats they have, but both are pretty skillful one way or another. I can be swayed one way or another though, normally I pay special attention to debates where answers are not clear cut.

Then again, in this thread I already explained that I lost all my respect for Batman's fighting skills forever when I saw scans of Harley dancing around him...


Happy Dance

leonidas
Originally posted by Bentley
Mmmmh... I was under the impression that Mandy was more powerful in h2h, enough to beat Cap at least, but exactly how much above is pretty hard to gauge considering the comics I've read. Going by Temugin's fights, it should be clear that chi manipulation gives him a solid edge against regular martial artists. Is he more skilled? Probably not, I think that like with Wolverine, superior stats actually are explanatory for many of the great feats they have, but both are pretty skillful one way or another. I can be swayed one way or another though, normally I pay special attention to debates where answers are not clear cut.

Then again, in this thread I already explained that I lost all my respect for Batman's fighting skills forever when I saw scans of Harley dancing around him...


Happy Dance

what's the equivalent in french to pffft? it's like you don't think harley would mess mandy's sh!t up. sneer

new bats does seem to be bogged down with suckage though. sad

i think a fight between mandy and cap would be a lot closer than most seem to. i could see mandy having to resort to rings to beat him tbh, but i also could see mandy taking him out. my whole point was that i don't think he's leagues above cap et. al., in skill. but, whatever. maybe one day we'll see.

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
what's the equivalent in french to pffft? There is no translation that Google is aware of.


....I looked. crackers

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
There is no translation that Google is aware of.


....I looked. crackers

then it's not even a real language. and most canadians have felt that way for years. sneer

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by leonidas
he certainly is. but gk you never really gave an opinion. regardless, i'll respect it, but would you place mandy on the "unearthly" tier of h2h, levels above guys like cap et al? or....do you really just not give a sh!t about the topic one way or the other? lol
I am not really that familiar with the Mandarin, but I doubt that he is a whole level above the top level streets like Batman and Cap.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Bentley
That's... probably true in both accounts. You're certainly on a roll these days.
That's because what goes on in my online life is usually always the complete opposite of real life.

RL always sucks onions imho.

leonidas
it does have it's moments, that's for damn sure.

ODG
Originally posted by Bentley
If not from my recent revelation that proved that Batman sucks at h2h, I'd be convinced by know.

Maybe the proof defending Mandarin exists, but apparently it's so evident that we should just shut up and accept it or we become apallingly stupid awesr

Wish Srank was around, at least he could be civil and make a point. We shouldn't be relying on one feat where Harley makes Batman look like a complete tool for anything.

Let us know when Batman shatters steel or rends armor more durable than titanium regularly with his bare hands in his appearances and fights a foe like Iron Man evenly with H2H alone regularly. Key word of the day kids: regularly. If Mandarin used his bare hands to shatter steel once or twice ever, and fights guys like Iron Man evenly with H2H 1 out of 20 times but still with a veritable "David vs. Goliath" motif going, than I'd see why you might take such offense at having Mandarin's superior H2H being rammed down your throats. Suffice it to say, it's just that obvious.

The point was made. Than ignored by butthurt. Than covered up completely by a spiraling descent into base trollery per the plan. You've been on KMC long enough to see the pattern.

Batman-Prime
facepalm

ODG
^ Your silence, as always, is much appreciated.

Batman-Prime
^you are not very bright, why waste my time on narrow minded, ignorant kids who can't grasp the smple facts presented to them? Twist the truth as much as you want, no one cares^^.

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^you are not very bright, why waste my time on narrow minded, ignorant kids Why indeed?

Congratulations, you have exceeded the upper limits of irony on the internet. thumb up

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by ODG
Why indeed?

Congratulations, you have exceeded the upper limits of irony on the internet. thumb up

Truth hurts, sorry for hurting your feelings, honestly.

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Truth hurts, sorry for hurting your feelings, honestly. Truth hurts your butt because you spoke whilst being completely uninformed about a comics subject. And I don't mind rubbing it in. You can beg for my attention and talk past me all you want -- which in and of itself, is an oxymoronic endeavor, but I recall already letting you know that I couldn't give a sh1t about you.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
We shouldn't be relying on one feat where Harley makes Batman look like a complete tool for anything.

Let us know when Batman shatters steel or rends armor more durable than titanium regularly with his bare hands in his appearances and fights a foe like Iron Man evenly with H2H alone regularly. Key word of the day kids: regularly. If Mandarin used his bare hands to shatter steel once or twice ever, and fights guys like Iron Man evenly with H2H 1 out of 20 times but still with a veritable "David vs. Goliath" motif going, than I'd see why you might take such offense at having Mandarin's superior H2H being rammed down your throats. Suffice it to say, it's just that obvious.

The point was made. Than ignored by butthurt. Than covered up completely by a spiraling descent into base trollery per the plan. You've been on KMC long enough to see the pattern.

trolling? laughing out loud

your dearth of evidence is called out, a differing opinion is expressed and THAT is what passes for trolling here now-a-days? thumb up

you have a lot of trouble having a civil discussion at times. there is also the fact that if someone read your posts they'd be walking around with the impression that mandy goes around cracking IM's armor like an egg anytime they fight! nothing could actually be further from the truth of course. he's HURT tony through it, (as has classic ironfist) and the odd time he has actually done physical damage to it, but to say he REGULARLY shatters titanium mesh is such a gross overstatement as to be laughable. how many appearances does mandy have? How many times has he physically 'broken' the armor? 'shattered' it? i mean, damn, i get that you don't like people disagreeing with you, but stop spreading blatant falsehoods at least. the guy has superstrength (he casually tosses tony around in his armor with one hand like tony weighs less than a newborn) and yet we're supposed to be overly impressed because a skilled guy, with that kind of strength, can shatter steel? please. fist's strike was at least as impressive as anything mandy did. and we're supposed to pretend that tony's skill level is meaningless here? that his ability to DEFEND himself from the same strikes that hurt him is somehow irrelevant? because someone far more skilled than tony could never counter those strikes, or avoid them. that makes sense. i think mandy's longest h2h fight was against tony UNARMORED. in that force works xover iirc. tony took a brutal beating but lasted, what, 3 full pages and still wasn't ko'd? wanda maximoff just walked up and punched him in the mouth. psylocke kicked him in his face and put him in a hold before he proved too strong. and yet cuz he beat up some guys with chains (cap, bats, dd et al have feats that sh!t on that....) and has a couple showings where he hurt an unskilled tony (he used his rings to stun tony BEFORE hitting him in at least one of your scans, btw) we should just assume he is on a whole nother level skill-wise with no real fights AGAINST skilled opponents to base that conclusion off of ? physical stats matter a great deal, but apparently not so much to you. i get that he's skilled. MAYBE as skilled or moreso than the others. but to try and state that claim so definitively and then to tell anyone who doesn't see it that way that we're.......i'm sure you'll fill in the blank. that's just blink

anyway, that's my last post on the subject. but trolling? trolling?? you do crack me up bunky. laughing out loud

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
trolling? laughing out loud

your dearth of evidence is called out, a differing opinion is expressed and THAT is what passes for trolling here now-a-days? thumb up Was I responding to you?

Seeing as how I've posted multiple scans showing how Mandarin has consistently fought Iron Man with his H2H from the 60s onward to present time, among other things, I don't know what dearth you're trying to imagine here. And again, not referring to you. So take your imagined slights elsewhere. It's the second time I've had to correct you: it should be obvious who that particular comment was directed at. Originally posted by leonidas
you have a lot of trouble having a civil discussion at times. I treat patent ignorance accordingly. Originally posted by leonidas
there is also the fact that if someone read your posts they'd be walking around with the impression that mandy goes around cracking IM's armor like an egg anytime they fight! nothing could actually be further from the truth of course. he's HURT tony through it, (as has classic ironfist) and the odd time he has actually done physical damage to it, but to say he REGULARLY shatters titanium mesh is such a gross overstatement as to be laughable. If you're going to be that particular about my terminology, I suppose "rending" is too strong a word. So I'll go with hurting him through his armor regularly. Originally posted by leonidas
how many appearances does mandy have? How many times has he physically 'broken' the armor? 'shattered' it? i mean, damn, i get that you don't like people disagreeing with you, but stop spreading blatant falsehoods at least. Just addressed. Although, coming from the guy who tried to strawman me repeatedly as if I were saying Mandarin completely transcends Immortal Iron Fist, I find your word parsing to be ironic, if not specious. By all means, is this an invitation for me to pick apart single words in your posts? Because I can make you look like even more of an a$$ already. Even though that's not the point of the discussion. Even though it's clearly your's. Because, let's face it. It's the only real avenue you've got left. Originally posted by leonidas
the guy has superstrength (he casually tosses tony around in his armor with one hand like tony weighs less than a newborn) and yet we're supposed to be overly impressed because a skilled guy, with that kind of strength, can shatter steel? When has he casually tossed Iron Man? Which... y'know, isn't exactly a lifting feat considering the armor usually weighs nothing. There's a reason he has historically carried it in a briefcase. It's super lightweight like cloth but super durable like titanium. Originally posted by leonidas
please. fist's strike was at least as impressive as anything mandy did. Classic Iron Fist? You do know that Tony was completely unharmed in the suit? Whereas, against Mandarin, Tony is harmed through the suit regularly? Originally posted by leonidas
and we're supposed to pretend that tony's skill level is meaningless here? that his ability to DEFEND himself from the same strikes that hurt him is somehow irrelevant? Well, yes. Because Cap and Iron Fist and Psylocke and Taskmaster and Black Panther and a whole bunch of people try to hurt Tony through the suit with barehanded martial arts and can't do sh1t. The only other martial artist who has, is Temugin. Originally posted by leonidas
because someone far more skilled than tony could never counter those strikes At this point you're just rambling incoherently. Speak English.

Bentley
Originally posted by ODG
We shouldn't be relying on one feat where Harley makes Batman look like a complete tool for anything.

I'm certainly not going to use Harley as an argument to convince other people, I just personally have a hard time considering Batman uber after that. Obviously, not an all defining showing, but I... Man, just let me dwell on it a bit sad

Originally posted by ODG
The point was made. Than ignored by butthurt. Than covered up completely by a spiraling descent into base trollery per the plan. You've been on KMC long enough to see the pattern.

I know people take bites at you often, but the frequent ad hominem does muddle your arguments from time to time. It can come off as unprovoked from a reader standpoint (I don't read every post here to know if people were trolling you in other threads).

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by leonidas
trolling? laughing out loud

your dearth of evidence is called out, a differing opinion is expressed and THAT is what passes for trolling here now-a-days? thumb up

you have a lot of trouble having a civil discussion at times. there is also the fact that if someone read your posts they'd be walking around with the impression that mandy goes around cracking IM's armor like an egg anytime they fight! nothing could actually be further from the truth of course. he's HURT tony through it, (as has classic ironfist) and the odd time he has actually done physical damage to it, but to say he REGULARLY shatters titanium mesh is such a gross overstatement as to be laughable. how many appearances does mandy have? How many times has he physically 'broken' the armor? 'shattered' it? i mean, damn, i get that you don't like people disagreeing with you, but stop spreading blatant falsehoods at least. the guy has superstrength (he casually tosses tony around in his armor with one hand like tony weighs less than a newborn) and yet we're supposed to be overly impressed because a skilled guy, with that kind of strength, can shatter steel? please. fist's strike was at least as impressive as anything mandy did. and we're supposed to pretend that tony's skill level is meaningless here? that his ability to DEFEND himself from the same strikes that hurt him is somehow irrelevant? because someone far more skilled than tony could never counter those strikes, or avoid them. that makes sense. i think mandy's longest h2h fight was against tony UNARMORED. in that force works xover iirc. tony took a brutal beating but lasted, what, 3 full pages and still wasn't ko'd? wanda maximoff just walked up and punched him in the mouth. psylocke kicked him in his face and put him in a hold before he proved too strong. and yet cuz he beat up some guys with chains (cap, bats, dd et al have feats that sh!t on that....) and has a couple showings where he hurt an unskilled tony (he used his rings to stun tony BEFORE hitting him in at least one of your scans, btw) we should just assume he is on a whole nother level skill-wise with no real fights AGAINST skilled opponents to base that conclusion off of ? physical stats matter a great deal, but apparently not so much to you. i get that he's skilled. MAYBE as skilled or moreso than the others. but to try and state that claim so definitively and then to tell anyone who doesn't see it that way that we're.......i'm sure you'll fill in the blank. that's just blink

anyway, that's my last post on the subject. but trolling? trolling?? you do crack me up bunky. laughing out loud

Don't waste your time, he is too stubborn to understand anything^^. Don't feed the troll.

ODG
Originally posted by Bentley
I'm certainly not going to use Harley as an argument to convince other people, I just personally have a hard time considering Batman uber after that. Obviously, not an all defining showing, but I... Man, just let me dwell on it a bit sad

I know people take bites at you often, but the frequent ad hominem does muddle your arguments from time to time. It can come off as unprovoked from a reader standpoint (I don't read every post here to know if people were trolling you in other threads). Even master martial artists can be tooled.

I'm not going to bother retracing who started flinging mud between me and leonidas, and when. Suffice it to say, I'm more concerned with discussing the facts of the issue and his behavior concerning said facts. I couldn't care less if he's offended at my belief that he's just completely ignoring the facts and that his strawmans are witless and inept. Argument =/= arguer. So I'll call out his arguments for what they are. He's not exactly earning the benefit of the doubt from me. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Don't waste your time, he is too stubborn to understand anything^^. Don't feed the troll. Unlike this guy. Who can't help but lurk and offers absolutely nothing to the conversation but uncontrollable butthurt and the stench of anal leakage.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So, has everyone come to the realization that Batman wins easily yet?

I think so. wink

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Golgo13
I think so. wink

thumb up

cdtm
I suppose Mandarin isn't "that" impressive.

Iron Man may be a step up from Thor (Who isn't though?), but he's no Captain America.

Batman wins.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
Was I responding to you?

Seeing as how I've posted multiple scans showing how Mandarin has consistently fought Iron Man with his H2H from the 60s onward to present time, among other things, I don't know what dearth you're trying to imagine here. And again, not referring to you. So take your imagined slights elsewhere. It's the second time I've had to correct you: it should be obvious who that particular comment was directed at. I treat patent ignorance accordingly. If you're going to be that particular about my terminology, I suppose "rending" is too strong a word. So I'll go with hurting him through his armor regularly. Just addressed. Although, coming from the guy who tried to strawman me repeatedly as if I were saying Mandarin completely transcends Immortal Iron Fist, I find your word parsing to be ironic, if not specious. By all means, is this an invitation for me to pick apart single words in your posts? Because I can make you look like even more of an a$$ already. Even though that's not the point of the discussion. Even though it's clearly your's. Because, let's face it. It's the only real avenue you've got left. When has he casually tossed Iron Man? Which... y'know, isn't exactly a lifting feat considering the armor usually weighs nothing. There's a reason he has historically carried it in a briefcase. It's super lightweight like cloth but super durable like titanium. Classic Iron Fist? You do know that Tony was completely unharmed in the suit? Whereas, against Mandarin, Tony is harmed through the suit regularly? Well, yes. Because Cap and Iron Fist and Psylocke and Taskmaster and Black Panther and a whole bunch of people try to hurt Tony through the suit with barehanded martial arts and can't do sh1t. The only other martial artist who has, is Temugin. At this point you're just rambling incoherently. Speak English.

you really have me befuddled, and the tangential replies are what drags these things into descending spirals. the 'mud-slinging' ironically began with comments like 'inept' and 'witless'. weird how things might get ugly from that.....i've been round here enough to (a) have a tough skin, and (b) know what you're like to debate against as we've had other go-rounds, but still.

anyway, no need to reply to my above. the relevant points remain--i say you have a dearth of evidence because, well, there is. he AT TIMES, damages tony. in the one where he hurts his arm he seems to be using a weak point in the armor as well. imo, the blow IF struck was as powerful as any mandarin did, and IF was putting a beating on him h2h before the final strike. it didn't ko tony, obviously, but it was certainly impactful. there is also the issue that tony lacks skill--an issue you don't seem to think matters for some reason i can't fathom and that are, imo, self-evident. factor in the notion that mandarin does NOT usually fight tony h2h but rather with his rings, (he's gone whole arcs where they don't engage h2h) and that tells us that even mandarin himself knows h2h isn't going to win him fights against tony very often, though obviously it can have an impact.

imo, we know mandarin is far more skilled than tony, and can hit hard enough to hurt him. that's it. we DON'T know if his skill far exceeds, if at all, the other top tiers because he has never fought anyone for any prolonged time, but we DO know that the others HAVE fought and defeated foes with similar striking power, if not greater. so the striking power isn't an issue, it's the skill that is employed to utilize it. if his strikes can be blocked or dodged (ie by cap's shield for one example, dd's or IF's agility and respective skills, for another) then the question is whether he is skilled enough to avoid getting his lights turned out by cap or the others. and the answer to THAT question in my mind is a resounding--i dunno. maybe, but maybe not. regardless, NOT definitively, as you seem to believe. i hardly think it is an egregious stance i'm taking nor did i couch said stance in anything resembling an aggressive nature to you.

i realize i back-tracked on my word that the last post would be my last, but the whole mud-slinging thing kinda stuck in my craw. if the trolling comment wasn't directed at me, 'pologies. maybe i'm getting defensive in my old age.

Jynocidus
Batman stomps

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, no need to reply to my above. the relevant points remain--i say you have a dearth of evidence because, well, there is. he AT TIMES, damages tony. in the one where he hurts his arm he seems to be using a weak point in the armor as well. So I won't. Let's get to the facts. Mandarin doesn't strike weakpoints. He isn't Karnak. Every time he's used his karate against Iron Man, he hurts him through his armor, at the very least. Other times, he's ripping it up. Most of the time, Tony is running away from his blows or thinking outright that he won't survive too many more. No other martial artist, using H2H combat, can boast that sort of consistent performance. Only Temugin. Who is just a rip-off of Mandarin. Originally posted by leonidas
imo, the blow IF struck was as powerful as any mandarin did, and IF was putting a beating on him h2h before the final strike. it didn't ko tony, obviously, but it was certainly impactful. Nowhere is Tony even described as hurt during that fight with classic Iron Fist. He can get knocked around and be virtually unharmed. These facts are not mutually exclusive of each other. And that is basically what happened. In Tony's numerous fights against Mandarin, the same cannot be said. There is absolutely no comparing Iron Fist's performance with Mandarin's, beyond Iron Man suddenly judo tossing Danny rather ignominiously as he once did Mandarin. Originally posted by leonidas
there is also the issue that tony lacks skill--an issue you don't seem to think matters for some reason i can't fathom and that are, imo, self-evident. You can't fathom it because you won't accept how pointless it is. Tony Stark's lack of skill doesn't matter. Why? Because as Iron Man, he's fought a lot of master martial artists; Cap, Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. And none of them, I repeat, none of them, has hurt him through his armor with barehanded strikes -- he's just that durable. Only Mandarin and Temugin. Guys who can shatter stone and steel effortlessly with their bare hands and have torn his armor apart. These are things other master martial artists cannot do, and they've tried. They are, by simple implication, superior than other martial artists. There is no avoiding this.

PC Karate Kid was so off the charts because he could fight PC Superboy. PC Superboy's lack of martial prowess was meaningless. Why? Because no other martial artist could take on PC Superboy anyway, only PC Karate Kid. That's what made PC Karate Kid so superior. Because he was able to accomplish something so superior with his martial arts, that other top tiered fighters couldn't. Unless you want to sit there and convince me that PC Robin could beat the crap out of PC Superboy???? Originally posted by leonidas
factor in the notion that mandarin does NOT usually fight tony h2h but rather with his rings, (he's gone whole arcs where they don't engage h2h) and that tells us that even mandarin himself knows h2h isn't going to win him fights against tony very often, though obviously it can have an impact. These are nothing but restatements of facts that aren't making a point. Mandarin has used his karate in most of their fights. There are times he uses his rings. Sometimes he doesn't. But when he doesn't, it's rather obvious his karate is inhumanly strong and dangerous enough to send Iron Man packing. And no other martial artist, other than Temugin, can do that. There's a reason why. Because they are more skilled.

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
imo, we know mandarin is far more skilled than tony, and can hit hard enough to hurt him. that's it. And that's all you really need to know because many other martial artists, who are also more skilled than tony, cannot hit hard enough to hurt him. Cap, classic Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. Originally posted by leonidas
we DON'T know if his skill far exceeds, if at all, the other top tiers because he has never fought anyone for any prolonged time, False absolutist nonsense. You obviously choose to backhandedly dismiss Mandarin's career against other martial artists with your arbitrary quantification of "prolonged fights," but that's rather meaningless. Mandarin has overwhelmed Psylocke, Cap, Black Widow, Hellcat, etc with his karate. If Mandarin was superior to them by another level, as all his other exploits make it obvious, his fights with these other martial artists shouldn't be prolonged affairs.

And they haven't been. Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself. Mandarin's H2H is just that good. Originally posted by leonidas
but we DO know that the others HAVE fought and defeated foes with similar striking power, if not greater. Already addressed numerous times. Show me where Cap and Batman are sending a foe like Iron Man scrambling for their life with their judo and ninjutsu. Show me a perennial foe of their's, who constantly exhorts their martial arts without the David vs Goliath motif going. You've mentioned Namor for example. Does Namor run away from Cap's judo the same way Iron Man runs away from Mandarin's karate?

You know he doesn't. We both know this. And I'm tired of you ineffectually just repeating points that have already been addressed. I can only shove these rebuttals in your face so many times. Originally posted by leonidas
so the striking power isn't an issue, Yes, it is. Because you haven't shown me Cap or Batman constantly sending an Iron Man-level foe scrambling around with their martial arts nearly every time they fight or casually shattering steel and stone.

You need to take a step back and realize what you're doing. You're essentially arguing that consistently beating a foe who physically outclasses you by a longshot, isn't indicative of greater skill. That beating other so-called top tier and second-tier martial artists consistently where they overwhelm them and make the fights incredibly brief, isn't indicative of greater skill. That being capable of superhuman feats like casually shattering rock and steel, being able to survive for a year without food, water or sleep, being able to drain lifeforce through chi, isn't indicative of greater skill.

THEN WHAT EXACTLY WOULD MAKE A GREATER MARTIAL ARTIST?

That's a rhetorical question. We know what makes a greater martial artist. Better feats. And more of them. And Mandarin's got them. Your defense of an entire tier of comic martial artists is bordering on the absurd. Stop acting like an arbiter of what feats are allowed to make a better class of martial artist. Because the types of feats I'm talking about, do classify who the better martial artists are.

Batman-Prime
Greater striking power of a inhuman MA master vs a better h2h fighter who has a lower striking power.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii265/scanscans/blz16al4.jpg
http://i12.tinypic.com/8f43gpu.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/59221/1769319-576791_blz18_super.jpg

ODG
^ This thread involves Mandarin and Batman. Not Karnak and Black Panther.

I'm not sure if this will clear anything up for you, as you seem to already be illiterate.

leonidas
Originally posted by ODG
And that's all you really need to know because many other martial artists, who are also more skilled than tony, cannot hit hard enough to hurt him. Cap, classic Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. False absolutist nonsense. You obviously choose to backhandedly dismiss Mandarin's career against other martial artists with your arbitrary quantification of "prolonged fights," but that's rather meaningless. Mandarin has overwhelmed Psylocke, Cap, Black Widow, Hellcat, etc with his karate. If Mandarin was superior to them by another level, as all his other exploits make it obvious, his fights with these other martial artists shouldn't be prolonged affairs.

i've already addressed the cap issue. where did he overwhelm natasha? and he did get the better of psylocke, but that was hardly skill imo. she got in the better shots, he was simply more powerful. more powerful=/=more skilled.



of course he doesn't make them run with his karate. cap is decidedly FAR below mandarin in level--his RINGS are what make him so fierce, and the personal power he has. take his rings away permanently, and you really think tony would "run away" from him? again, you overstate the impact of his skills on tony. ANY opponent cap faces KNOWS it's his martial skill that they must contend with. people who face mandarin know he's good in karate, but it's the rings they fear. that should be obvious to everyone.



likewise i'm tired of you repeating the same thing--mandarin does well against tony ergo he must be far more skilled than anyone else. forgetting that he has superhuman stats. forgetting that he doesn't always hurt tony. forgetting that batman has kicked down trees, ripped open a steel vault, forgetting that cap has hurled his shield faster than a rocket and split cars in half and has a perfect defense against mandarin's striking power which is nothing special and nothing any street hasn't faced and beaten. you've even said IF is in his league, maybe better, but accuse me of straw-manning when we look at his record against other streets. shang chi has some GREAT chi feats as well. but if IF is in his league, by default mandarin is NOT tiers above guys like cap and the fact that you can both say IF is in his league AND he's tiers above cap really make your position completely untenable imo.



and again, his feats against a SINGLE superior foe. do we actually have to rehash the number of exceedingly superior foes guys like bats and dd and IF and cap and BP have defeated? and they also do so with skill, and far less personal power and no rings to bring to bare. T



would be. if it ever actually happened. can't believe you can say with a straight face he's beaten other top tier guys. that's a falsehood, plain and simple, not something we see from you.



shattering rock and steel is nothing new to someone like iron fist. cap and others have similar feats. surviving a year is a great feat, one i've no doubt IF in particular could replicate.



mandarin is a great martial artist, a master of his discipline no doubt, capable of great feats of chi control and striking power who can and has performed well against a superior opponent. name me someone in cap's calss of h2h that can't say the same thing? that also is rhetorical. IM does NOT run away from him h2h. spiderman used to terrorize titania, who massively outclassed him in power. THAT is someone who ran away. again, you're painting a false image of mandarin--if someone did for logan what you're doing for mandy, you'd have their head.

you're stance is really impossible to argue, because it's based on such a singular position. he hurt tony therefore mandarin>>anyone who isn't powerful enough to hurt tony. we must all forget about all other feats, by all other characters since in the few times they fought tony they didn't hurt him the same way. it's a myopic view. mandarin is vastly skilled, but being physically powerful enough to hurt tony=/=being more skilled than cap or IF or the others. but i get you don't see that so this has truly run its course for me. always entertaining odg.

Batman-Prime
^he lost, his sole argument is a feeble one and he knows it, circular logic, agressive/insulting behaviour and ignorance is everything he will vomit into this thread.
Originally posted by ODG
^ This thread involves Mandarin and Batman. Not Karnak and Black Panther.

I'm not sure if this will clear anything up for you, as you seem to already be illiterate.

It's a better way to compare how the fight would go then Tony vs IM. This doesn't suit you well, I understand it, because your only argument is

Mandarin is tha superior!11 'couse he hurts Im through armoh! Woah!

Batman isn't fighting Tony, he doesn't have to. Batman isn't using IM Armor, because he doesn't needs to. Mandarin can be hurt by Batman, Batman can be hurt by Mandarin. It's exactly like the Karnak/BP fight. Mandarins superior striking powah vs Batmans superior h2h skills. The faster, better h2h fighter will win.

It can't be clearer or simpler then this BP/Karnak fight. You don't like being wrong, well, you are, grow up and live with it. Your only stance IM can be hurt, has no meaning in this discussion because everyone agrees that Mandarin can hurt Batman.

ODG
Originally posted by leonidas
i've already addressed the cap issue. where did he overwhelm natasha? and he did get the better of psylocke, but that was hardly skill imo. she got in the better shots, he was simply more powerful. more powerful=/=more skilled. No, you deflected rather weakly onto his H2H performance against Namor. Which are nothing like Mandarin's H2H performance against Iron Man. Mandarin fought the Avengers during Acts of Vengeance. Black Widow tried to jumpkick him and he deftly snatched her ankle and tossed her along with Hellcat. Deftly countering Psylocke's imminent psyblade attack and tossing her aside like a nuisance is a skill showing. Had Mandarin just flexed her off or used a forcefield to repel her, than it'd just be overpowering. So stop pretending to be an arbiter of what is and isn't a skill feat. Originally posted by leonidas
of course he doesn't make them run with his karate. cap is decidedly FAR below mandarin in level--his RINGS are what make him so fierce, and the personal power he has. take his rings away permanently, and you really think tony would "run away" from him? again, you overstate the impact of his skills on tony. ANY opponent cap faces KNOWS it's his martial skill that they must contend with. people who face mandarin know he's good in karate, but it's the rings they fear. that should be obvious to everyone. Mandarin has made Iron Man scramble for his life against his rings. He has also made him scramble for his life with his karate. I don't have the patience to countenance you blatantly lying about how Iron Man fares against the karate. There have been multiple, multiple instances of Iron Man running away, dodging for his life, tossing him aside, nearly blacking out, getting his armor torn up, and scrambling from his karate strikes. You don't get to lie that he hasn't.

And if lies are all you have to avoid the obvious implications of your busted Cap vs. Namor analogy, then so be it. But it isn't worth my spit. Originally posted by leonidas
likewise i'm tired of you repeating the same thing--mandarin does well against tony ergo he must be far more skilled than anyone else. No. Mandarin does well against Iron Man with pure H2H. Something many other master martial artists, like Iron Fist, Taskmaster, cannot do but have tried. Only Temugin. Mandarin also has inhuman striking power. Much more so than other street level master martial artists. Wolverine, Batman and Lady Shiva aren't shattering steel doors with karate chops. Mandarin has also pretty much dismissed or overwhelmed every single martial artist who's tried to tackle him H2H with his karate; like Cap, Psylocke, Black Widow, etc. Mandarin also can achieve inhuman feats with his chi such as surviving for years without food, water or sleep and stripping the lifeforce from someone. Daredevil, Nightwing, Black Panther cannot do that.

This is what makes him a superior martial artist. Because he can do things they cannot with his martial arts. These are things that count. They aren't things you blatantly ignore just because you're offended that another tier exists beyond Batman and Cap.

Your insistence otherwise isn't rooted in anything more than a complete lack of knowledge concerning Mandarin -- something multiple scans haven't remedied -- and your own mental baggage.

Your repeated gibberish is duly noted, and dismissed.

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^he lost, his sole argument is a feeble one and he knows it, circular logic, agressive/insulting behaviour and ignorance is everything he will vomit into this thread. Nobody cares what you think. But being reduced to peanut gallery antics has improved your posting. Mainly because at least you aren't spouting your own typical Butthurt Prime brand of horse manure and instead are trying to ride on someone else's coattails. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It's a better way to compare how the fight would go then Tony vs IM. This doesn't suit you well, I understand it, because your only argument is Karnak vs Black Panther has nothing to do with Mandarin vs Batman. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Mandarin is tha superior!11 'couse he hurts Im through armoh! Woah! If that were the only argument, you'd have a point. As it stands, all you have is a worthless strawman. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Batman isn't fighting Tony, he doesn't have to. Speak English, plz. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Batman isn't using IM Armor, because he doesn't needs to. Speak English, plz. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Mandarin can be hurt by Batman, Batman can be hurt by Mandarin. Speak English, plz. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It's exactly like the Karnak/BP fight. Mandarins superior striking powah vs Batmans superior h2h skills. The faster, better h2h fighter will win. Mandarin is the better h2h fighter. Because of his 50+ years of martial arts feats that don't just include a long consistent career of inhuman striking power. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It can't be clearer or simpler then this BP/Karnak fight. You don't like being wrong, well, you are, grow up and live with it. Your only stance IM can be hurt, has no meaning in this discussion because everyone agrees that Mandarin can hurt Batman. Actually, your irrelevant butthurt and absolute inability to discuss Mandarin himself is very simple to see. Go ahead and discuss Black Panther vs Karnak to your heart's delight in their thread. They aren't interchangeable.

And you obviously hate life because you can't even find Mandarin scans to work with. Why? Because they all ram the point in your thrice-violated bunghole that his martial arts acumen, can sh1t on Batman's. Because it does by feats.

Leave this conversation to those who can actually speak English and aren't rampantly butthurt trolls, ok? kinda

Batman-Prime
^You are angry because you don't like being wrong and exposed, ok. You can't counter an argument so you ignore it, fine with me^^.

As it seems, the people disagree with you.

BTW are you homophobic or are you secretly gay? Because you have an obsession with buttholes^^.

I pity you, though you make me laugh sometimes^^.

ODG
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^You are angry because you don't like being wrong and exposed, ok. You can't counter an argument so you ignore it, fine with me^^.

As it seems, the people disagree with you. I'm not angry. I'm just dealing with a butthurt troll who projects his own disappointment onto others. Am I supposed to welcome you with wide open arms? Are you seeking my approval? Is that it? You obviously are seeking my attention, despite being made aware that I don't care about you. Obsessive, much?

As it seems, you are very butthurt. Originally posted by Batman-Prime
BTW are you homophobic or are you secretly gay? Because you have an obsession with buttholes^^.

I pity you, though you make me laugh sometimes^^. Because a non sequitur deflection towards homophobia doesn't reveal how cornered you are on constructively discussing facts? This is the internet, son. I know when someone can't do sh1t but troll away because the discussion has gone so horribly wrong on so many levels, it's all you've got.

And I don't give a sh1t about you, so there's that. Please don't commit suicide though. If feebly begging my attention is all you've got in life, well... so be it.

TrevorPhillipss
Well...Bruce did KO Cheetah..but yeah he isn't winning this..

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