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Alright, Bills may have the title of 'most powerful being in Z'(aside from Whis, of course), but would he be able to boast the same in GT..?

Match 1: Bills vs. Final Form Rildo
Match 2: Bills vs. SSJ3 kid Goku
Match 3: Bills vs. SSJ2 Baby-Vegeta
Match 4: Bills vs. SSJ4 Goku
Match 5: Bills vs. Golden Oozaru Baby-Vegeta
Match 6: Bills vs. Super 17
Match 7: Bills vs. Omega Shenron
Match 8: Bills vs. SSJ4 Gogeta

Bills is fully recovered after each match. Fights take place on the planet M-2.

How far does he get?

Just for a brief overview of the ridiculousness of GT multipliers...

Kid Goku stated that base form Rildo was "even more powerful than Majin Buu"(he was likely referring to Kid Buu, as he specifically used the title "Majin", before going on to stalemate Rildo in his base form. Base Goku also trounced both Cell AND Frieza with an effortless degree of ease-- they were literally nothing in comparison.
ie. base Goku~base Rildo>Majin Buu>>>>Cell>>>>Frieza.

After transforming into a SSJ, Rildo stated that Goku's power "increased a hundred fold."
ie. SSJ Goku 100x>base Goku~base Rildo>Majin Buu.

If the base-to-SSJ multiplier in GT = 100x, I have no idea how effing vast the SSJ2-SSJ3 multipliers may have been(double what they were in Z, maybe..?) What we do know is that SSJ2 Baby-Vegeta was thoroughly trouncing SSJ3 Goku-- yet after reaching SSJ4, Goku was able to tool Baby with lulz-worthy ease.
ie. SSJ4 Goku>>>SSJ2 Baby-Vegeta>>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ2 Goku>SSJ Goku 100x>base Goku~base Rildo>Majin Buu>>>>Cell>>>>Frieza.

Then you have Omega Shenron, who made both SSJ4 Goku & SSJ4 Vegeta(who were teaming up) look like weak feebs... And finally there is the ultimate being in GT: SSJ4 Gogeta, who toyed with Omega Shenron like he was a no-name piece of fodder.
ie. SSJ4 Gogeta>>>>>>Omega Shenron>>>>>SSJ4 Goku+SSJ4 Vegeta>>>SSJ2 Baby-Vegeta>>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ2 Goku>SSJ Goku 100x>base Goku~base Rildo>Majin Buu>>>>Cell>>>>Frieza.

Food for thought.

Hm, Base Kid Gokou is as strong as SSJ3 Gokou in BOG, and if the multipliers for the then SSJ3 Kid Gokou is about 3,200x more powerful than SSJ3 Gokou in BoG. Yea I don't see SSJG mode being that much more powerful than SSJ3 Gokou. But, if SSJ is the only one that gets the double power up, then SSJ3 Kid Gokou is 800x more powerful...Bills MAY be able to contend.

Originally posted by Kento
Hm, Base Kid Gokou is as strong as SSJ3 Gokou in BOG, and if the multipliers for the then SSJ3 Kid Gokou is about 3,200x more powerful than SSJ3 Gokou in BoG. Yea I don't see SSJG mode being that much more powerful than SSJ3 Gokou. But, if SSJ is the only one that gets the double power up, then SSJ3 Kid Gokou is 800x more powerful...Bills MAY be able to contend. Yeah, it's pretty much impossible to know for sure what the SSJ2-SSJ3 multipliers were. Given the insane levels of power in GT, however, it wouldn't surprise me if all the SSJ multipliers were double what they were in Z(at the very least.) /shrug

However, we know the SSJ4 multiplier was, in all likelihood, astronomically greater than the other transformation-multipliers. After all, it was powerful enough to override a wish from the Black Star Dragon, and turn Goku into an adult for as long as he was able to stay transformed.

Somehow, people have come up with ssj4 being 10x more powerful. Which REALLY doesn't fit in the scheme of things. But GT doesn't fit anyway so it doesn't even matter. SSJ4 Gokou is way too powerful for Bills anyway you scale it. So if by some miracle he can go past Bebi Vegeta, he doesn't get any farther.

Has anyone in here seen the Bill movie? He took Vegeta out with his finger nail. His showing against Super Saiyan 3 Goku was amazing as well. Don't see how anyone here beats him.

Picking the guy who can casually bust moons by flying through them without a drop in speed.

Originally posted by carver9
Has anyone in here seen the Bill movie? He took Vegeta out with his finger nail. His showing against Super Saiyan 3 Goku was amazing as well. Don't see how anyone here beats him. According to Goku's assessment in GT that base Rildo>Majin Buu, and the fact that Goku went on to stalemate Rildo as a base Saiyan, we know base-level GT Goku~SSJ3 Z Goku. This also means base-level GT Goku is at least 400x> base-level Z Goku(in Z, a SSJ3 is 400x> base.)

When GT Goku went SSJ, his power increased 100 fold according to Rildo. This means SSJ GT Goku was roughly 100x more powerful that SSJ3 Z Goku.

Even if we assume the SSJ2-SSJ3 multipliers were the same in GT as they were in Z(in all likelihood, they were much greater) then it puts SSJ2 GT Goku at 200x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and SSJ3 GT Goku at 800x> SSJ3 Z Goku.

If we then use the commonly accepted SSJ4 multiplier of 10x a SSJ3, then it puts SSJ4 Goku at 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and 3,200,000x> than base-level Z Goku.

Originally posted by Galan007
According to Goku's assessment in GT that base Rildo>Majin Buu, and the fact that Goku went on to stalemate Rildo as a base Saiyan, we know base-level GT Goku~SSJ3 Z Goku. This also means base-level GT Goku is at least 400x> base-level Z Goku(in Z, a SSJ3 is 400x> base.)

When GT Goku went SSJ, his power increased 100 fold according to Rildo. This means SSJ GT Goku was roughly 100x more powerful that SSJ3 Z Goku.

Even if we assume the SSJ2-SSJ3 multipliers were the same in GT as they were in Z(in all likelihood, they were much greater) then it puts SSJ2 GT Goku at 200x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and SSJ3 GT Goku at 800x> SSJ3 Z Goku.

If we then use the commonly accepted SSJ4 multiplier of 10x a SSJ3, then it puts SSJ4 Goku at 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and 3,200,000x> than base-level Z Goku.



In other words you're wrong....

Originally posted by carver9
Has anyone in here seen the Bill movie? He took Vegeta out with his finger nail. His showing against Super Saiyan 3 Goku was amazing as well. Don't see how anyone here beats him. By having a ridiculous amount of power gap between Z, and GT characters if you add it up if GT is canon.

My head hurts trying to make sense of GT's ridiculousness.

LoL Carver.

Might as well add Bills owning Piccolo with chopsticks crylaugh

The thing is, imagine how powerful Gokou would have been had he stayed adult. He was weakened by being turned into a kid. And was still > Buu.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Picking the guy who can casually bust moons by flying through them without a drop in speed. If Bills boasts that level of physical power then he is going to go through everyone except maybe Gogeta like a hot knife through butter.

SSJ4 struggled to lift half a city for comparison.

Base GT!Goku > Buu > Cell+Freeza > Base BoG!Goku (from Bills, Goku and King Kai admitting his base is still weaker than Freeza). As said above GT!Goku has at the very least a 400x PL increase over BoG!Goku. And perhaps it was PSI when Vegeta could draw blood where SS3 Goku could not, still it could shows that you just need to be a certain notch above Goku to harm Bills. And I highly doubt being pissed increases his PL by 400 times.

With raw powerscaling like this I say Bills struggles with SS3 Goku. Maybe. Bills wont be taking Baby!Vegeta down, nope.




Though thats raw powerscaling. With actual feats its a different story.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Picking the guy who can casually bust moons by flying through them without a drop in speed.
Weren't they the size of King Kai's planet?

Why are people powerscaling a canon source from a noncanon source?

It would be like saying that because Old Man Logan's Wolverine killed Hulk, 616 Wolverine kills 616 Hulk.

Because Z is still canon to GT.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why are people powerscaling a canon source from a noncanon source?

It would be like saying that because Old Man Logan's Wolverine killed Hulk, 616 Wolverine kills 616 Hulk. Because it references a base that we can gauge from Z, and what the power scale would be, following it. Its noncanon but the power levels can be known. And power levels are all that matter in dragon ball

In terms of events hey man sure.

But in terms of powerscaling and all that gay shit? Not necessarily.

There are strength feats in Z better than the ones in GT for example.

There isn't very many big strength feats anyway.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Weren't they the size of King Kai's planet?

Were they?

I assume moons are the size of our moon for simplicity. O:

Originally posted by Kento
There isn't very many big strength feats anyway. Strength feats are inconsequential either way.

In Z, base Goku outright stated that he would be unable to move with 10 tons of training weight on each extremity. This makes absolutely NO sense considering the mere shockwaves generated by his punches can shatter mountains. In most cases the brute lifting strength of the Z warriors doesn't seem to match-up with their strength-intensive battle feats. Chalk it up to Akira's laziness. /shrug

Originally posted by NemeBro
In terms of events hey man sure.

But in terms of powerscaling and all that gay shit? Not necessarily.

There are strength feats in Z better than the ones in GT for example.

Doesn't SSJ4 Goku lift a city? I can't remember better in Z.

Gohan as a child destroyed the Saiyan pod.

The same pod that withstood Nappa's super dooper blast of death.

^ Heck, look at the damage kid Goku caused when he turned into an Oozaru the first time:







It's hard to imagine anything less than a cl. 100 character smashing the bejesus out of a stone castle like that, as well as throwing large sections of the castle a great distance at great speed.

...And back then Goku was so weak that even the PL of his Oozaru form was a scant 100. :/

But do you think 21st tournament Gokou normal form could do the same thing? As his power level then would be higher than his monkey form at that point in time.

The class 40 thing is honestly just Toriyama being an idiot.

Remember Goku throwing giant Piccolo?

How much would giant Piccolo weigh?

Originally posted by Kento
But do you think 21st tournament Gokou normal form could do the same thing? As his power level then would be higher than his monkey form at that point in time. What I'm saying is that by the time of the Buu saga, when Goku's base PL was in the tens of millions, him being unable to lift 40 tons total is ridiculous, given that we saw what a PL of 100 is capable of when berserk.

I also hate to beat a dead horse to death, but I'm sure you guys remember this feat:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2161/kidgokupusing200tonboul.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8127/dbc0705.jpg
Even if that boulder was one of the most lightweight types of stone on earth, it would still require>>cl. 40 strength to push it-- especially when you factor in the added friction resistance of pushing it on the ground.

Originally posted by Galan007
I also hate to beat a dead horse to death, but I'm sure you guys remember this feat:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2161/kidgokupusing200tonboul.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8127/dbc0705.jpg
Even if that boulder was one of the most lightweight types of stone on earth, it would still require>>cl. 40 strength to push it-- especially when you factor in the added friction resistance of pushing it on the ground.

Depends on the friction coefficient but it could actually require more force to push the rock than it does to overcome gravity (pick it up directly opposite of the pull of gravity). Also, most rocks out in the open like that are limestone or granite (just got done with a geology class, lulz). So use the density of those to come up with an estimate.


Did someone come up with a volume estimate? If they did, then just multiply the volume by the density of limestone and granite to get a decent and accurate range for the mass.

Originally posted by Kento
How much would giant Piccolo weigh?

I wanna know, myself.

I was pointing out the fact it was Oozaru state, power level doesn't equal somebodies strength levels. Even in that scan, Roshi has a higher power level than Gokou and is unable to actually have ever pushed that rock.

Originally posted by Kento
How much would giant Piccolo weigh? Good question.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16727516_Dragon_Ball_-_V13C08_-_Page_01.png http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16727518_Dragon_Ball_-_V13C08_-_Page_04.png http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16727523_Dragon_Ball_-_V13C08_-_Page_05.png http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16727527_Dragon_Ball_-_V13C08_-_Page_06.png http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16727529_Dragon_Ball_-_V13C08_-_Page_07.png

Per the Daizenshuu, Goku is 5'7-- which, after some rough scaling, puts Piccolo's height at somewhere between 30-35' tall, even with his knees crouched. So lets say he is 40' tall when fully erect.

At his standard height, Piccolo appears to be about a foot taller than Goku:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16727576/Dragon_Ball_-_V13C07_-_Page_07.png.html
Which means Piccolo increased his stature by about 6x.

The square cube law states his volume would increase by the cube of the multiplicative. So if he really did get 6x larger, since 6 cubed is 216, you'd multiply that by 113kg(Piccolo's estimated weight) and get 24,408kg, or about 26 tons.

Mind you, that is just a rough estimate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Did someone come up with a volume estimate? If they did, then just multiply the volume by the density of limestone and granite to get a decent and accurate range for the mass. I don't think I've seen an accurate weight yet. You could be the first!

Originally posted by Kento
I was pointing out the fact it was Oozaru state, power level doesn't equal somebodies strength levels. Even in that scan, Roshi has a higher power level than Gokou and is unable to actually have ever pushed that rock. You're still dealing with characters whose PLs were in the 100's preforming >>> cl. 40-level feats.

...Yet Goku couldn't lift a mere 40 tons years later when his PL was in the MILLIONS? Akira is just a 'tard at times, plain and simple.

But there is no way to know if his weight increased so much.

I'm not saying that Gokou unable to lift ten tons with on arm isn't wrong. I'm just saying just because Oozaru Gokou had a pl of 100 doesn't mean anyone with the same power level doesn't mean they can replicate same feats.

Originally posted by Kento
But there is no way to know if his weight increased so much.

I'm not saying that Gokou unable to lift ten tons with on arm isn't wrong. I'm just saying just because Oozaru Gokou had a pl of 100 doesn't mean anyone with the same power level doesn't mean they can replicate same feats. Your right. Brute strength is not always proportional to power level(although physical strength does increase to some extent in accordance with PL.) However, what I'm saying is that the cl. 100 strength feats Oozaru kid Goku performed with a PL of 100 should be EASILY replicated by base Goku during the Buu era, whose PL was literally a million times greater.

Anyway, this is all secondary to feats like kicking Frieza through mountains and islands while holding back. A sub-40 tonner isn't doing that.

Goku struggled with 100 x Earth's gravity guys.

His body would have been far under 100 tons there.

That's not something easily ignored as that was such a big part of the story leading up to the Namek.

a.) that was during the Frieza saga.
b.) he wasn't struggling with said gravity by the time he arrived on Namek.
c.) he was kicking Frieza through mountains and islands while holding back. Again: a sub-40 tonner isn't doing that.
d) the Buu-era is when he supposedly couldn't lift 40 tons-- and by then his power was many orders of magnitude beyond what it was in the Frieza saga.

Any way you cut it, Goku being unable to lift 40 tons is write-offable nonsense, given some of his other feats.

Goku has no real great strength feats of note outside of filler.(pushing apart a small plateau against Kid Buu while in SSJ2) and GT (lifting half a city with great struggle from an unknown distance underground in SSJ4).

He struggled with 100x Earth's gravity leading up the Frieza, and even before then, when he was much weaker during his fight with Vegeta on Earth, they were still breaking mountains and shit.

They've been doing that kind of collateral damage forever. It does not mean anything in particular regarding their actual lifting capability.

Some fictions display the relation of AOE effect strikes and strength differently than others. (For example, a character like Kratos is much stronger than Akuma for instance, yet has no AOE behind his punches whereas Akuma has great demonstrations of AOE.)

His struggling with 40 tons strapped to his body at base is canon, and the most clear cut case of strength that we can point to. It is also greater than the 100x Earth's gravity thing he struggled with during his trip to Namek, so it still checks out timeline wise. Though some fans don't like it because its not as great a jump in strength as they would have expected.

It just means physical strength doesn't increase that much.

The mere shockwaves generated by the Z fighters physical blows can(and have) destroyed entire mountain ranges.

It requires billions of times more force to destroy an object indirectly in this manner, than it does to destroy it directly. It would be like hitting a punching bag in your garage so hard that the forces released from said blow spread outward and disintegrated your entire house.

This is similar to Goku punching Frieza with such force that he was sent hurling completely through a mountain/island. The forces at play were immensely beyond the capability of a sub-40 tonner.

Showings like these are strength feats whether you want to think of them as such or not.

They aren't clear cut strength feats. Those are just flashy effects of fight, that while are not unimportant, are far less important than direct statements and showings of lifting power, especially ones that were a great part of the story in an arc. Goku struggled with 100x Earth's gravity initially, in which he would have weighed less than 10 tons.

Vegeta later struggled with like 300x Earth's gravity despite being many multiple times stronger than Goku would have been on the way to Namek.

Goku then later struggled with 40 tons strapped to him, which would have been almost equivalent to 600x Earth's gravity.

Vegeta then later made a claim against Pui Pui that maybe under 500x Earth's gravity, that he would have struggled. That's many years passed from Namek, and still only a few multiples of difference in pure strength.

DBZ already made the distinction when dealing with actual numbers vs the side effects of a fight.

Toriyama is dumb. Blame him, but he made his own statements and showings.

Still, many characters have AOE far greater than what their actual lifting capabilities would suggest. Most often in anime.

So basically, cling to a single off-handed statement, and disregard any/all battle feats in which the strength-intensive forces generated were vastly greater than the implied 'strength cap'? Sorry, but I can't do that.

Even as a child, when his PL was in the 100's, Goku was showcasing > cl. 40 strength feats.

As an adult, when his PL was in the millions, Goku became so powerful that he could strike a fixed object(his opponent) and the shockwaves/forces generated by that punch could destroy mountains several hundred yards away. He became so powerful that he could kick an opponent into a mountain, and that mountain would be shredded like cheap tissue paper. Feats like these need...require... far more than 40 tons of force. Simple.

I am in no way trying to place Goku remotely close to strength Gods like Superman or Hulk. However, 40 tons is an absolute joke that no one in their right mind can possibly take seriously, given the plethora of feats to the contrary.


But yeah, I agree that Akira was a complete idiot at times.

Originally posted by Galan007
So basically, adhere to SEVERAL cohesive statements that line up timeline wise, and disregard any/all battle feats in which only through fan extrapolation can lead to greater than demonstrated strength levels.

Fixed.

Yes.

Goku struggled with 100x Earth's gravity. That's his strength level at that time. It is 100% canon and 100% valid as he has no confirmed strength feats of clear cut manner before that to invalidate it, and because it was a very crucial part of the story leading up to the Namek saga. This automatically overrides any fan extrapolated strength calculations that could be made even as far back as Kaioken Goku vs Scouter Vegeta. They were breaking mountains indirectly even then. Is that as important as Goku's actual concrete strength feat days/weeks later? Absolutely not.

Collateral damage in such a scale is just a mundanely common trope in anime. It does not mean that you can simply go by the real world logic of indirect destruction requiring X amount more force to accomplish and run wild with it. The number you use is 'billions' of times more, word, that's obvious enough, but it is not applicable here at all. Unfortunately your fan extrapolation cannot be used to say that Goku is at least billions of times stronger than what he showed, even when what he showed was a big plot point of an arc, and then backed up several more times in the proceeding timeline.

Goku has no confirmed strength feats above being strapped to 40 tons dating back to Dragon Ball. None. Only through fan extrapolations on say a feat like flipping a giant piccolo can we come to that conclusion. But again, that's not confirmed. Powerscaling from way back when is simply not that important.


Goku's power level was only in the double digit thousands range when he started his 100x Earth's training and struggled greatly (I'd estimate he was at 30,000 then, seeing as Vegeta was like 18,000 on Earth). Vegeta's power level when he struggled with 300x Earth's gravity would have been breaking into the low millions, (since he would at least have been stronger than Frieza's second form, which also broke 1 million). Millions vs Thousands. Huge gap. Still an insignificant strength difference in comparison. Vegeta specifically said he should be able to triple what Goku was capable of and Bulma's dad freaked out, and specifically told Vegeta that he'd weigh like 18 tons under that gravity and would barely be able to move, and he predicted correctly seeing as Vegeta struggled like hell.

Trying to powerscale all the way back to DB doesn't really hold water when its already established there that the strength gains are nowhere near proportional. It's also older work to, and thus not as relevant.


TLDR; Trying to say indirect collateral damage showings puts strength levels billions of times above what they show in clear cut statements and feats just doesn't work. You're working with a common trope in anime in the first place, where collateral damage often is wildly disproportionate to actual physical strength feats. Tropes are often dumb.

So we gladly ignore physics in one case and arbitrarily follow them in another, gotcha.

There's nothing arbitrary to follow.

Only what the author showed us and told us directly in a clear cut manner, and it lines up with prior showings.

Tropes are tropes. Fan extrapolations/calculations need not apply.

Goku near the start of the Buu saga in base, was a sub 40 tonner when it was strapped to him. i.e. it was a near 600x Earth's gravity equivalent for him.

Vegeta near the start of the Android saga in base, was a sub 18-20 tonner, as his body could not handle 300x Earth's gravity. (not simply fan extrapolation, as Bulma's dad even said so, referencing Vegeta's weight as a guestimated 60 kg when he multipled)

Goku midway to Namek, was a sub 10 tonner since he could not handle 100x Earth's gravity.

It's funny how you're trying to ignore indirect mountain breaking(as well as other feats in DB canon) as though they shouldn't count as strength feats. Like it or not, they should and they do.

You can point out a few instances in which Z fighters struggled with mediocre training weight. I can recall at least a dozen instances in which the feat(s) in question required far more than cl. 40 strength to accomplish. Any time the shockwave from a punch causes collateral damage for several hundred yards. Any time a character is punched through a mountain. Any time a character pulverizes large chucks of earth. Etc.

All of the above requires > cl. 40 strength. This is an unarguable fact, so I don't know why I've even bothered indulging you this far.

It's funny how you're trying to ignore several feats that have clear cut calculations that come alongside the characters witnessing them, and how they, funny enough, increase as they should with the timeline.

You tried to powerscale lazily and just come to the conclusion that things should be orders of magnitudes greater than what they showed, I already showed how it doesn't work when a PL of million+ Vegeta is only confident that he can triple the strength of a double digit thousand Goku.

Your fan extrapolations are clearly not 'inarguable', as I'm arguing just that, and you're just falling back on faulty real world logic applications that that does not line up with the direct calculations given in the show. The latter takes precedent.

This means the most we can say is that <10 to 40 tonners can cause that kind of collateral damage in the DBZ world because that's how the physics work in that world. Lol. The only indulgence on your part is self indulgence in your application of fan extrapolations somehow overriding more clear cut feats with actual numerical figures attached to them.

Your argument hinges on combat visuals which can already be readily hand-waved away as tropes. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm sorry, but you cannot come to the conclusion that Goku is actually 'billions' of times greater in strength than he what he showed in direct figures, just because by external real world measures one could calculate that indirect destruction could take 'billions' of times more force to do.

Not to mention, that doesn't even work out when you forget that another real world fact you have to realize is that something the size of a fist could never destroy a mountain, no matter how strong the fist is. Seeing as its simply far too small to cause any large structural damage.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's funny how you're trying to ignore several feats that have clear cut calculations that come alongside the characters witnessing them, and how they, funny enough, increase as they should with the timeline. Stopped reading. This is a horribly ironic statement coming from a guy who is explicitly trying to ignore the fact that the high majority of Goku's physical battle feats require FAR more than cl. 40 strength to accomplish. These feast vastly outnumber feats to the contrary, in fact. But hey, that's your prerogative. /shrug


Anyway...
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728353_db26_128.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728355_db26_129.jpg

That was Frieza-saga base Goku(PL=3,000,000), who was drastically holding back at the time. Claiming the strikes of a sub-40 tonner were sufficient to produce THAT much damage is, quite frankly, retarded.

Lol.

Of course you stopped reading, you have nothing left to do but offer circular statements.

No. Simply put, in DBZ it simply does not require greater strength than what they showed to make that kind of collateral damage. That's the physics of the world you have to live by. Not your own inserted numbers.

Base Goku in Buu Saga could not budge his body at 40 tons. 40 tons stated by a Kai.

Base Vegeta in Android Saga could not budge his body while it was 18 tons, stated by Bulma's dad, a top scientist and inventor.

Collateral damage in DBZ is not what you want it to mean, and does not give you the room to give anyone a strength level 'billions' (this was the figure you used directly) of times greater than concrete feats that have numerical figures.

End of. Trope arguments. This is not limited to DBZ either, just anime in general, where people destroy shit indirectly far above their actual lifting feats. Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, One-Piece etc. You name it.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Collateral damage in DBZ is not what you want it to mean, and does not give you the room to give anyone a strength level 'billions' (this was the figure you used directly) of times greater than concrete feats that have figures. This just might be the most idiotic statement I've ever read. Definitely in the top 5.

-You: "Physically destroying a mountain does not require mountain-busting strength!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"

-You: "Indirectly destroying a mountain with the shockwaves generated by physical blows does not require billions of times more energy input than destroying that same mountain with a direct punch!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"


Lol, good God. I think we're done here.

Originally posted by Galan007
This just might be the most idiotic statement I've ever read. Definitely in the top 5.

-You: "Physically destroying a mountain does not require mountain-busting strength!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"

-You: "Indirectly destroying a mountain with the shockwaves generated by physical blows does not require billions of times more energy input than destroying that same mountain with a direct punch!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"


Lol, good God. I think we're done here.

Your incessant whining and inability to reconcile with the concrete facts given before in the show, across three separate sagas in the timeline, is amusing.

No, my dear idiot.

The statement is not that "Mountain busting doesn't mean mountain busting!".

The statement is, "Mountain busting in this case does not mean the figures you wish to give to it."

Goku struggles with 40 tons? Confirmed? Ok. Cool. That's all it takes in DBZ as far as lifting strength goes then to cause that kind of AOE. Or hell, even less than that, since we know Vegeta years earlier struggled with 18 tons, or hell even less than that, seeing as Goku even before that, struggled with ~10 tons. You're getting hung up on a trope that exists in all manga/anime. Their AOE is not their strength. It's their AOE. And its not an important part of the story, nor is it quantified, which wouldn't be a problem on its own, but we have other clear cut quantifications directly from the author. All of which you would like to upgrade with your laughable, whiny, fan-extrapolated 'billions' figure. That kind of level of contradiction, that kind of level of gap against the author's concrete, numerically accompanied showings is ludicrous, and completely unsupportable.

You'd have something if Goku struggling with 40 tons was some kind of isolated feat, that we could easily write off as Toriyama's bad memory or being a hack in general. But clearly you forgot other instances that from earlier sagas where the numbers line up just as they should. Read: They were lower.

And what do they all have in common? They were all clearly quantified.

Goku's been busting mountains indirectly since fighting with Vegeta on Earth in the Saiyan Saga. They do the same again in the Buu Saga. Clearly its simply not that important a detail so as to make a fuss and extrapolate figures from it, since they could do similar things from like over a decade ago.

And yet despite their power levels being increased thousands upon thousands of times, their direct strength increases were a few multiples at best throughout the years. The best snap shot of which was Pre-Android Saga Vegeta being confident that he was at least 3x stronger than a pre-namek Goku (in power level wise he was far above that), yet being completely --wrong--, since he could not even handle 300x Gs despite Goku having already mastered 100 x Gs.


Once more, your insistence on increasing their strength profile by 'billions' of figures using real world physics falls flat on its face, when you fail to remember that something as small as a fist could never destroy a mountain, no matter how much force it had behind it, also going by real world physics.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why are people powerscaling a canon source from a noncanon source?

It would be like saying that because Old Man Logan's Wolverine killed Hulk, 616 Wolverine kills 616 Hulk.
Both BoG and GT give clear relationships between both base Goku's with Z villians, with BoG < Freeza and GT > Buu. So that part can be scaled when the feats are non-transferable.

Using that would mean BoG SS3 < GT base. Only need those two statements to get here.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Were they?

I assume moons are the size of our moon for simplicity. O:
Weren't we able to clearly see him fly about? Know I saw something in that vid.. not bothered to go check.

Mercernary Tao threw a cinder block clean across the world with ease and kid Goku was stronger than him. That alone is a class 100 ft. Goku tossing people almost out of orbit proves this as well. Don't get what the problem is.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Your incessant whining and inability to reconcile with the concrete facts given before in the show, across three separate sagas in the timeline, is amusing.

No, my dear idiot. Lol, you are so mad. Relax.

Once more: in order to destroy a mountain directly, one must exert enough physical force to destroy said mountain. If you don't agree with this, then you are retarded-- I literally cannot dumb it down any further. That said, the strength/force required to destroy a mountain is undeniably in excess of what a sub-40 tonner is capable of producing. Simple logic is simple.

You can cling to 2 or 3 lulz-worthy showings if you like. I'll stick with the dozen+ showings that overtly contradict your opinion, though... This being one of them:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728353_db26_128.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728355_db26_129.jpg
According to you, Goku would have been WELL below a 40-tonner at this time, yet he was still capable of sending Frieza flying straight through a mesa/island, through a small body of water, and well into another landmass... With a single restrained kick..? That's cray cray, yo.


We saw a similar feat(on a lesser scale) when Goku battled Vegeta during the Saiyan-saga:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728678_chap232i10.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728679_chap232i11.jpg
And if Namek-saga Goku(PL=3,000,000) was WELL below a 40-tonner(iYo), Saiyan-saga Goku would have been like a gnat in comparison to a 40-tonner(iYo), considering his PL was only about 21,000.

Geeze, I guess mountains...islands...rock in general is made out of paper mache in the DBZ universe, if beings vastly below cl. 40 can pulverize it like nothing at all. srsly

Originally posted by carver9
Mercernary Tao threw a cinder block clean across the world with ease and kid Goku was stronger than him. That alone is a class 100 ft. Goku tossing people almost out of orbit proves this as well. Don't get what the problem is. Previous feats don't matter in CC's world.

And again: this is all inconsequential, given that even as a child(PL=100's) Goku was preforming > cl. 40 feats:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728749_kidgokupusing200tonboul.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728748_dbc0705.jpg

I don't think I should have to argue whether or not Goku is above the 40 ton class any longer. He was above that tier as a child. srsly

Anyway, you can have the last word on the topic. I've abundantly proven my point, and have no want or need to degrade this thread into a childish flamewar.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Weren't we able to clearly see him fly about? Know I saw something in that vid.. not bothered to go check.

Visual assistance to the audience.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, you can have the last word on the topic. I've abundantly proven my point, and have no want or need to degrade this thread into a childish flamewar.

Meh. That's how I've been lately. Just give up on idiot-ragers who think making bad points is a way of "debating."

Goku's punches created shockwaves that destroyed punches? Damn, did not know that.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Tropes are tropes. Fan extrapolations/calculations need not apply.

This is a VS forum, this is speculation.


Deal with it.

I don't actually recall Goku's punches destroying mountain ranges with the shockwaves. Galan, when did this happen?

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Visual assistance to the audience.
NO! superpokeplz

Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't actually recall Goku's punches destroying mountain ranges with the shockwaves. Galan, when did this happen?

I don't remember that happening in the manga but it happened in the anime.


This is the "anime versus forum".

BRB: gonna check the OP.

Edit - Looks like the anime counts since this includes the anime, GT. OP did not specify that the manga, only, was being used (or the anime, only, for that matter).


Edit2 - Does that change the nature of your question?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Meh. That's how I've been lately. Just give up on idiot-ragers who think making bad points is a way of "debating." I frequent the comic book forums, where hate-fueled rants are commonplace. I stopped partaking in that type of gibberish years ago *thank God*.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't actually recall Goku's punches destroying mountain ranges with the shockwaves. Galan, when did this happen? In the manga the only instance of shockwave mountain-breaking I recall was during SSJ2 Goku's battle with Majin Vegeta. In the anime it happened in pretty much every series-- which is primarily what I was referring to in my previous posts.

I know manga takes precedence here, though, which is why I only posted manga feats. Apologies for the confusion.

All right, fair enough. Might reread the Majin Vegeta fight sometime.

Was busy. Let's continue.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, you are so mad. Relax.

Lol. Irony. Who started the actual name calling, slinging around 'retarded' as a self-evident get out of jail free card regarding the other's view point? Certainly you were, once you realized you weren't getting your way, you stopped trying to expound on a point, just made circular statements that were already thoroughly countered, and rested on your imagined high horse in a debate and took to the aforementioned, lazy 'retard' refrains, as if that's going to take care of your work. I was trying to be civil until you came to that juncture.



I'm sorry, but from your words here it would seem you were of the
delusion that you were making some novel, uncharted and unconsidered point with this tangent.

"lolz indirectly destroying things takes billions of times more force lolz"

Sorry to be a downer but this is not some profound, or even bright comment to make. That is extremely basic shit. There's nothing eye-brow raising or game-changing about these when it comes to considerations of their strength. The status quo has remained this way for years and these points which you've brought up have been discussed ad-nauseum across countless boards and they've already recounted and filed and made sense of within the universe and they do not come to the conclusion that you do.

They are simply categorized as feats of destructive capability, not pure feats of lifting/pressing/pushing strength. Yes, those distinctions are very important to make when there are story elements that make it clear that they are necessary to make. I.E. Your fan extrapolations are bunk. I've delved into the physics argument side of things thoroughly, a lot more than you have, be sure of that. So please get off that high horse, as though these basic physics claims are some unbeatable trump card of because of some amateur "LOLITSPHYSICS" stance. This is something that I would argue on the DBZ's behalf, if there wasn't already conflicting information that takes a higher priority. More on this to come, as well as your over-simplification of the physics here.




Lol. You keep changing goal posts on this point. First I was 'clinging' to a 'single off-handed statement'. And now its '2 or 3 lulzworthy' feats that don't count. You clearly thought that Goku's 40 ton struggling was a massive outlier low feat, but its a
feat that lines up extremely consistently with other confirmed, fully calculated by dialog strength feats from throughout the series, and is in fact his best confirmed lifting feat ever.

Let us put it to rest here, and now with these supposedly 'lulzy 2 or 3 showings', all in sequence.

1. Goku struggled with 10x Earth's gravity initially on King Kai's planet. He could still walk, but it took a humorous amount of
effort. And before that? Goku and Piccolo used weighted clothing, when they took it off against Raditz, their power levels increased immensely. Like Goku jumped from a PL 330 to a little over 400.
This weighted clothing training thing started from way back in Dragon Ball, where the weight for Goku's clothes (his undershirt, boots, and wristbands) were estimated by Tien to be a total of....250 lbs. Proof: http://mangawall.com/manga/dragon-ball/177/11
So yeah, before he left King Kai's planet, Goku used to be wearing weighted clothing that was almost twice his own weight, and in
addition to his own weight with them on, he was a total of near 3x his weight, which was still more than enough to suppress his power level by like 25% against Raditz.

Now. Tell me this. How. The ****. Is wearing 250 lbs going to be any sort of burden if according to you, Goku was already greater than class 40 back in dragon ball? 40 tons. That's 80,000 lbs. 250 lbs is 0.3 % of that. Not even 1%. It would be more impressive relative to strength levels, for me to wear a 2 lb kitten on my person at all times.

2. After Goku mastered 10x Earth's gravity, and the saiyan battle on Earth was over. Goku was training in gravity in his ship on the way to Namek. He went up to 100x Earth's Gravity. He was stated to be at least 6 tons at this gravity.

3. Vegeta insisted on training under 300x Earth's gravity to triple what Goku did, this was when they were training for the Androids.
Dr. Briefs stated he'd weigh over 18 tons and wouldn't be able to move. Vegeta indeed struggled mightily with his 18+ ton body. This is despite the fact that he had already broken the 1 million power level two years ago when he was still on Namek (after Dende healed him), so would have been even stronger by now, probably at least tripled. And yet Goku's power level was only in the low double digit thousands when he started his 100x G training, and only had a base of 90,000 once he finished it. (he was weaker than Ginyu in base, and had to resort to Kaioken to better the latter's power level).

4. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber. The training area had 10x Earth's gravity. Goku stated he already went there before as a kid when he trained with Kami and Popo and could not handle it back then. Goku and Vegeta had already trained under 100x and 300x Earth's gravity by now respectively, for short bursts of time, but obviously Goku felt that one full year of non-stop training under the 10x g gravity (as well as the harsher atmosphere), would still be a great benefit for them as far as strength gains go.
He was right. Hell, Trunks despite being in power level of millions at base, still had some difficulty with the sudden gravity change initially, though he quickly got accustomed to it, and didn't struggle near as much as Goku did when he first came across 10x Gs.

5. Base Goku in the beginning of the Buu saga could not budge his body after 40 tons was strapped to it. This is equivalent to damn near 600 times Earth's gravity for him.

6. Base Vegeta fighting Pui Pui in 10x gravity said it might have been an advantage for the latter if it was 500x earth's gravity instead.

Sorry, but that shit is completely in sequence, and it is completely consistent as far as progression goes. You're a whiny little bastard if you think your fan derived numbers (which you only equivocate and won't even outright state what you think Goku can bench due to them) are not remotely admissable in place of these. These take precedent, this trend started from major story plot points that led to character progression. They aren't as unimportant as the minutia of how a battle scene is drawn, which could easily be altered without impacting the story at all, whereas your dumb ass would have to alter entire stretches of dialog and story
for you to simply discount those 'lulzy' feats.

It's irresponsible bullshit. Stop this.

As for your feats 'contradicting' mine. Umm. No. They don't contradict anything. They can easily work with the parameters we've got. The feats that are calculated and confirmed by dialog, and have importance as far as the plot goes, absolutely contradicts your imaginary numbers however--numbers which you don't even have the courage to outright state what you feel they mean either. More on this below.

For one, stop the mindlessly retroactive power-scaling with power levels. That shit is already proven unreliable as far as strength calculations go. We already know their strength levels. Goku when he was fighting Vegeta, had mastered 10x earth's gravity.
Meaning he could move around while his body weighed 3/5 to 3/4 of a ton. Base Goku while fighting Frieza had mastered moving his body around at 100x Earth's gravity, where his body was in the 6 to 7 ton range. At that point, he would have probably been unable
to move at 300x Earth's gravity though, seeing as Vegeta roughly two years later could not move under that initially, yet base Goku was only about 3 times more powerful than base Vegeta while on Namek at that point. (3 million for goku vs 1 million for vegeta after dende healed him).

That's the strength gap we are dealing with. Much less than your implying.

And on that point, the first thing I want you to do, is to stop being vague, stop ****ing equivocating, and settle down on actual figure. How much can Goku bench press? Give me a damn figure, right now. You can hide behind this non-commital bullshit, talking about "oh it takes billions of times more force to destroy something indirectly than directly" and all, but what does that mean for Goku's bench?

I'll simply take it a step further on your behalf, apparently since apparently you're too timid to say it.

Goku can bench press millions to possibly low billions of tons since he can indirectly bust small mountains and pleateus that would weigh as much as that. Right? That's what you mean, right? Rather, that's what you want to say but have tip-toed around it because you know its not supported anywhere, has no basis in any forum profile for the character and is easily shut down by scans of struggling with double digit tons. Afterall, how is Goku even going to feel like 10x g is a notable advantage to him to train under even as far as the Cell saga, if the guy is able to lift the equivalent weight of an island? That gap is far too wide.

This is not even getting into the fact that you can not at all prove that those shockwaves are from pure physical force either. You gloss over the ki element. They release ki with every major motion they take. In energy waves obviously, but even simple Kiai shouts, even just powering up, and of course hard fisticuffs. All of that releases ki. Their ki can do things they can't, they can cause planet wide earthquakes, causing volcanoes to erupt and tidal waves to form. Their Ambient ki release can do these things, yet we know for a fact their physical strength alone cannot do anything remotely like that, since they've struggled with even 300x their OWN weight or less--and no matter how dumb Toriyama is, he at least doesn't think a tectonic plate that shifts and causes major tidal waves, weighs less than 300x Goku or Vegeta's weight.

That's what has already been settled on, for years now, and why Goku isn't suddenly listed as a mountain level+ bench presser, because ki does some crazy shit.

So in the end, ok awesome. Goku splits an island by knocking a durable opponent through it. Clearly it means he can lift that hundreds of millions to billions of tons of island, right? Right?? Well um...no, unfortunately not; Seeing as we have a clear cut showing of a of a particular strength level within this same part of the Frieza fight. Frieza toss a large rock,
that was maybe a couple of hundred feet tall at most at Goku (much smaller than Ayers Rock in Australia, which is about 4 million tons). Goku utterly failed to stop it in its tracks. That by itself isn't so bad,
as we don't know exactly how fast it was meant to be going, but once Goku got jammed against a plateau nearby (the impact was not enough to break that plateau mind you), did Goku manage to push himself out of that? No. He was stuck. He couldn't move that weight at all, so he resorted to using a destructo disk to cut his way out.

By the way, one more thing. While you're right, in that it takes a lot of net force to destroy a mountain, force by itself does absolutely nothing. Force needs to be enacted upon an area for it to do something. Meaning? It has to create pressure. The force that sunlight puts on the Earth is about 60,000 tons. This does not crush us. Why? Because its spread out over such a large area that the pressure it produces is miniscule. On this point, it does not take an unearthly amount of pressure to damage a rock. If that
pressure value is able to applied across an even larger area, the net force will be higher even while the pressure stays the same, and that would cause an even larger rock to still be damaged. This would directly apply to the extremely large shockwaves that come after their punches, often comparable in size to the small mountains they fight near. Obviously if enough pressure is applied across a large area, structural integrity can be lost. It doesn't take an unimaginable amount of pressure to damage/pierce rock, you can do that with a pick axe obviously, but that pressure is only being applied to a small area. Apply the same pressure across the whole rock and the rock will be pulverized even further, not just split in two. The net force would increase since the area you're applying the pressure to is increasing, but the pressure is staying the same. Just saying, simply saying 'force' regarding anything is too simplified. The pressure is what moves/damages etc, and the pressure does not have to be all that high.

Well, there's your critical thinking skills, if this is the dumbing down you believe has to take place in order for this shit to make sense. Not at all. It's far more straight forward than that, and it does not even remotely require me to actually denounce entire statements or feats the way you're trying to do with these '2 or 3' supposedly 'lulzy' feats.

Base Goku is a sub-40 tonner at the beginning of the Buu saga, whose durability far surpasses his strength level (more durable than the environment around him, and this has been the case for decades, ever since dragon ball), and can fly far faster than he can move, aiding in the force of his strikes immensely. That goes for opponents on his level as well.

All of that easily explains shit such as him being able to knock objects that weigh no more than normal humans, through thousands of tons of rock. They are much more durable than the rock in the first place, and can run really fast and fly even ****ing faster. Proof that their flight greatly enhances their physical force can be seen in the very same 40 ton feat. If Goku was on the ground, he would not have been able to stand, let alone walk. He couldn't budge his limbs and the weight caused his body to bend over. Yet the power of his flight could keep him above the ground.

That does not remotely mean Goku can sit in one spot and just bench thousands of tons. None of the feats you wish to contradict my stance actually contradict my stance at all. In fact, they can entirely co-exist. Unfortunately the feats I've referenced outright do contradict YOUR stance. Not the feats themselves, but your take on the feats, which is easily undermined as bullshit.




Ill conceived and Ill applied calculations that don't take into account other factors that could rend the hypothesis void, and that aren't supported by the authors own clear cut calculations don't matter in my world, adding these imaginary numbers to older feats (numbers of which Toriyama would not have known), which already count less, does not help them at all.

And yet the mountain busting can still exist here without being discounted at all, and make total sense with what Toriyama has given us. You simply have to think just a tad bit harder about things.

On the other hand, what you've done is try to reject DBZ reality and substitute it with your own, despite having to completely
tossed aside entire story elements that were important to plot and character progression in favor of your own beliefs. That's something a petulant, whiny little ass would do.

Like you said, mountain busting is mountain busting. I agree. Unfortunately, mountain busting does not mean what you wish it meant, in this case. If there wasn't conflicting information, no ambient ki element that can cause wide scale destruction on its own, and those were the only feats of destructibility they had at all, then sure, it could pass.

As it is, it can work in other ways, and other feats take precedent since they have been calculated by dialog and are often a major part of story progression.



Originally posted by Galan007
And again: this is all inconsequential, given that even as a child(PL=100's) Goku was preforming > cl. 40 feats:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728749_kidgokupusing200tonboul.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16728748_dbc0705.jpg

I don't think I should have to argue whether or not Goku is above the 40 ton class any longer. He was above that tier as a child. srsly

Anyway, you can have the last word on the topic. I've abundantly proven my point, and have no want or need to degrade this thread into a childish flamewar.



Please, Galan, if its one thing I hope you don't do, I hope you haven't thoroughly convinced yourself that you are somehow leaving this debate on some kind of high ground intellectually. Your posts have been downright anemic on that front. Tepid, and vague, and avoiding to committing to concrete figures.

First you try to impress with some nascent physics applications. You then fail to outright state the numbers that you're trying to imply due to being too timid to actually believe in them. And then you post a feat of kid Goku struggling immensely to simply push a decent sized boulder and can't even properly assess the level of the feat in question? How in the world is that a >class 40 feat? He's not even lifting that shit, which would be immensely harder. Men have pulled jets weighing 100s of tons, entire locomatives weighing even more than that, hell even 16,000 ton cruise ships. The weight of the object itself is simply one thing. Pushing and pulling things in the end is just vastly less impressive than lifting them. And likewise, how strong is Spiderman then? The guy has lifted a chunk of metal weighing more than a locomotive. He has held up buildings weighing THOUSANDS of tons. He has held up train cars which can weigh up to 100 tons. I guess Iron Fist must be able to bench thousands upon thousands of tons since his punches can damage an entire front section of a helicarrier and cause it to tilt off axis--hell that's extremely relevant in this case as his Chi/Ki helps his destruction output just like it does for Goku and Co. Granted its a decent strength feat as he'd have to overcome the rock's inertia initially, but that goes with pushing or pulling anything large, and once he does that its much easier to keep moving it due to its momentum.

The main point you haven't grasped thus far, is that Toriyama would not have known how heavy it would have been (obviously, since he did not specify the weight of it), nor would he have known of the exact relation between the lifting feats of his characters vs them destroying shit with their punches. For him, all we know was that 40 tons sounded suitably impressive enough.

Here's what your problem is here; you're suffering from a belief-based dilemma. You look at Goku's confirmed, fully quantified strength feats, cannot acknowledge that they are the best he has on that front, and then you try to look for ways to subvert it because it 'doesn't feel right' to label Goku's strength at that level. This is because from a comparison, in your head, you look at other fictional characters like for example, Ben Grimm, and he's listed far above that level of strength by handbooks and even feats, yet doesn't produce near that kind of result on the environment that he punches. Yeah, it doesn't 'feel right' to look at Goku as a below some character's class like that. I suffered from that problem for a while too regard Goku's placement of strength years ago. But it doesn't matter. Those are the facts we have to live with, and in the end we're comparing the quirks of the physics of two completely different verses beyond just weight and gravity here when we start confusing all this shit. E.G. The Flash being able to punch much harder than Goku by narrative statements of the weight of his punches yet will leave craters much smaller. That's just different physics across different worlds and its best not to conflate them to be equivalent on every minute basis.

By all acounts of the feats we have, if Goku was tasked with lifting up a million+ ton egyptian pyramid, he would utterly fail. Ben Grimm would succeed, since he has feats of that scale yet will barely clear even the low entry for class 100 admission. Yet if we tasked them to break the pyramid Goku would do so immensely quicker, and do it in one blow. Like Ben he's much more durable than the object at hand, yet he can run far faster, and his flight can add even more force to his blows than that. Hell, if the pyramid is kept the same weight but made durable enough to withstand being broken by them, I would bet on Goku with his flight speed and acceleration still being able to knock it back a good distance. But as for standing in one spot and dead-lifting or bench pressing that weight though? Forget about it. He will fail.

To summarize, it is impossible to attribute DBZ collateral damage ability to stationary weight lifting strength because of the factors of flight amped impacts, and ambient ki being released that also damages and shifts the environment in and of itself, (at scales much larger than their own physical strength has ever shown). Goku at base being a calculated sub-40 tonner is the BEST, 100& confirmed, manga level of canon feat of strength in DBZ (well, outside of him turning SSJ and then owning that same 40 ton body), and we can only power-scale upwards with an uncertain height of ceiling since it was in the beginning of the Buu saga. I'd rate him at best by the end to be 100-200 tons tops in base.

It's cute though how you're allowing me to say all this since apparently its my 'prerogative' to be able to 'believe' Goku is a sub-40 tonner by the buu saga though, as if its some figure I made up on my own, isn't manga level canon, isn't a dialogue confirmed figure for the feat, and isn't the best fully quantified feat in a series of equivalent showings of strength dating all the way back to late Dragon Ball. Surely your fan made figures---which you aren't even confident enough to outright state their implications evidently, are valid and iron-clad emperical truths for the series though, yes?

Do you honestly think anyone is going to read a fraction of that rant? Rhetorical: the answer is "no."

@ the effort, though.

Concession accepted. And sure. I've posted far longer in the past, in more engaging/in-depth threads than this. It's not a filibuster or anything, my style is simply to be as in-depth as possible in one sitting, and cover as many bases for retort as possible.

If you'd actually read it with an open mind though, perhaps you'd come to a better understanding of the debate.

A good debating tactic is not tl;dring people until they stop. After one post like that it is time to let things go before they become...well that.

He's shut up Burning Thought with that style though.

I have no bias against Burning Thought. He doesn't matter to me in the slightest honestly. But overlong posts are no fun dewd.

Unless the writer is really talented and makes it seem awesome. But three of them? Nah.

Originally posted by Galan007


Do you honestly think anyone is going to read a fraction of that rant? Rhetorical: the answer is "no."

@ the effort, though.

I read some of it. Maybe 1/100 of it.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
A good debating tactic is not tl;dring people until they stop. After one post like that it is time to let things go before they become...well that.

It depends on the situation. Usually, by that point in a 'debate', it is just the same points being made, over and over, with just different words.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He's shut up Burning Thought with that style though. Well, yeah. Who in their right mind would take the time to a.) read that entire wall-o-text, and b.) respond to every portion of it individually?

Not this cowboy, that's for sure.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I read some of it. Maybe 1/100 of it. Nice.

That's 99% more than I read...

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I have no bias against Burning Thought. He doesn't matter to me in the slightest honestly. But overlong posts are no fun dewd.

Unless the writer is really talented and makes it seem awesome. But three of them? Nah.

He shouldn't matter to anyone. He was an idiot. He got shut up by CC. People cheered.

Meh, he makes good points IMO (I read the first post). Physical strength doesn't seem like it scales evenly with Power Level, the concept of which was abandoned by the creator.
They become a heck of a lot faster as the series moves on and they're capable of releasing energy that can obliterate stuff easily. It isn't that far fetched to assume their DC feats due to seemingly physical actions like flying kicks and punches are related to something other than their physical strength.

Originally posted by Galan007
Well, yeah. Who in their right mind would take the time to a.) read that entire wall-o-text, and b.) respond to every portion of it individually?

Not this cowboy, that's for sure.


If you do, you will likely get another wall of text. The argument honestly isn't worth that much of yours or CC's time IMO. srug

BT was like the quanchi/phenomenol of the VG versus forum. An idiotic troll who would never give up or alter his stance.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He shouldn't matter to anyone. He was an idiot. He got shut up by CC. People cheered.

Meh, he makes good points IMO (I read the first post). Physical strength doesn't seem like it scales evenly with Power Level, the concept of which was abandoned by the creator.
They become a heck of a lot faster as the series moves on and they're capable of releasing energy that can obliterate stuff easily. It isn't that far fetched to assume their DC feats due to seemingly physical actions like flying kicks and punches are related to something other than their physical strength.

I know about the 16 post thing. I didn't cheer. I laughed but let's be honest: he tries that on anyone else and he'd get in more trouble. With mods or normal posters.

I truly do not care enough about whether Goku is class 100 or not lol.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If you do, you will likely get another wall of text. The argument honestly isn't worth that much of yours or CC's time IMO. srug

BT was like the quanchi/phenomenol of the VG versus forum. An idiotic troll who would never give up or alter his stance. I agree... The convo is superfluous. That's why I was surprised he took the time to write a wall-o-text that I(and very few) will never read. /shrug

Heh, I think I remember hearing about him. Sounds intelligent.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I know about the 16 post thing. I didn't cheer. I laughed but let's be honest: he tries that on anyone else and he'd get in more trouble. With mods or normal posters.

16 posts?

lol

Got a link? I need to see this.

16 posts? Wtf? Lmao. Wish I had that kind of free time.

Here you go.

Continues on the next page. But honestly you're not going to read it lol.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I know about the 16 post thing. I didn't cheer. I laughed but let's be honest: he tries that on anyone else and he'd get in more trouble. With mods or normal posters.

I truly do not care enough about whether Goku is class 100 or not lol.
Okay, so I was remembering it incorrectly, he didn't shut BT up, but he did e-spank him splendidly. But yeah, some cheered. I laughed and e-applauded the effort.
Maybe. If he did bash as frequently and intensely as he did against BT. He does it rarely though.

Yeah. Either way you cut it, Goku's a Planet Buster with his energy attacks, and that's honestly going to be enough for him against weaker foes.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree... The convo is superfluous. That's why I was surprised he took the time to write a wall-o-text that I(and very few) will never read. /shrug

Heh, I think I remember hearing about him. Sounds intelligent.

Yeah, true. Well, some people are capable of doing that. He's not an unintelligent troll like the most that would though. Just the opposite.

BT has argued for Kain the Vampire, a human-sized character who barely qualifies as a meta, stomping the likes of Pyron, a planet+ sized dude who can wear planets on his person, and destroy planets in his restrained form. haermm

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He's shut up Burning Thought with that style though. He should have been banned for that post.

GK and Peach: Oh, we're not "biased" with how we mod the forum.

Lol, what a ****ing crock of shit.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He should have been banned for that post.

GK and Peach: Oh, we're not "biased" with how we mod the forum.

Lol, what a ****ing crock of shit.

Reported.


For you newbz, I didn't report jack shit.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Here you go.

Continues on the next page. But honestly you're not going to read it lol. I mean..I knew BT supported Kain like crazy but that was ridiculous, he should have been banned for even replying lmao. After facing a mountain of text that would make me want to pull my intestines out and hang myself with them, he still stood by Kain..like wut.

Originally posted by Yamcha
I mean..I knew BT supported Kain like crazy but that was ridiculous, he should have been banned for even replying lmao. After facing a mountain of text that would make me want to pull my intestines out and hang myself with them, he still stood by Kain..like wut.

So BT deserves a ban for responding in turn? Rude.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
So BT deserves a ban for responding in turn? Rude. I mean...I guess O.O?

http://s1278.photobucket.com/albums/y508/YamchaKMC/image_zpsa09620b3.jpg

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Here you go.

Continues on the next page. But honestly you're not going to read it lol. Frankly, that is ridiculous... Bordering on sad.

what the **** does the have to do with billz and dbgt?

That side of the discussion was evidently agreed upon several pages ago: Bills gets to SSJ4 Goku.

Bills clear this.

That's hard to imagine, carver.

Lets look at Frieza vs. Nail:










Frieza shitstomped Nail with utterly insane...laughable...retarded ease. I mean, not only were Nail's most powerful punches/blasts insufficient to so much as put a scuff on Frieza, but Frieza damn near killed Nail with a few restrained blows.

And keep in mind: base Frieza's PL=530,000. Nail's PL=42,000. This means Frieza was only 12.6x more powerful than Nail, and he was able to dominate that battle with as much ease as Bills owned SSJ3 Goku. This is important because SSJ4 Goku alone was, in all likelihood, several thousand times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku was at the end of Z(this was broken down on the first few pages.)

To summarize:
Per canon, a being who is a 12.6x more powerful than their opponent, can tank ANY attack said opponent can muster without so much twitching their eye, and they can nearly kill this opponent with 2 restrained blows.

Even if you want to argue that Bills owned SSJ3 Goku with 10x the ease in which Frieza owned Nail(something I'd disagree with), it still implies that Bills would only have been about 130x more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. And again: SSJ4 Goku was several thousand times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku was in Z.

That said, you'd have to take an extreme leap to put Bills over SSJ4 Goku-- much less Omega Shenron(who was many, many orders of magnitude more powerful than SSJ4 Goku), or SSJ4 Gogeta(who was many, many orders of magnitude more powerful than Omega Shenron.)

Agreed I would put bills on pare with omega but ssj gogeta not happening

was ssj 2 vegeta stronger than ssj 3 goku? because of intense training

@Galan...

The comparison between the Frieza and Nail fight vs the Goku and Bill fight isn't comparable at all. Even though Frieza held back against Nail, he still threw punches...Bill took SS3 Goku out with a "touch". He thumped SSJ Vegeta and koed him...then it was stated that Bill took out an entire Galaxy instantly. This doesn't include him flying from one end of the DBZ verse to the other in 26 min. Don't see SS4 Goku beating him.

@Carver do you think the hulk would beat superman?

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
@Carver do you think the hulk would beat superman?

Of course he does. But so do many others

One look at the sig all one needs....no wait...yeah...hulk likes the Super D.

With statements Bills clears.

With feats he stops at SS3 Goku.

Sorry in advance for the breathy response... I'm bored at work.

Originally posted by carver9
The comparison between the Frieza and Nail fight vs the Goku and Bill fight isn't comparable at all. Even though Frieza held back against Nail, he still threw punches...Bill took SS3 Goku out with a "touch". He thumped SSJ Vegeta and koed him... Yes, I know. That still doesn't mean Bills was thousands of times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because we saw how effortlessly Frieza was able to own Nail while holding back-- and there is only a 12x power differential between them.

That said, Bills may have been a few hundred times more powerful than SSJ3 Goku(being generous here), but again: a few hundred times more powerful still isn't even remotely comparable to SSJ4 Goku, who was logically thousands of times more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.

Again: it was stated that base Rildo>Majin Buu, yet base GT Goku was able to match him-- this makes sense considering base Goku owned Cell and Frieza in GT like they were weak feebs. Rildo then stated that Goku's power "increased a hundred fold" when he transformed into a SSJ(which is double what the SSJ multiplier was in Z.)
ie. SSJ Goku(GT)100x>base Goku(GT)~base Rildo>Majin Buu~SSJ3 Goku(Z).
ie. ie. base Goku(GT)~/>SSJ3 Goku(Z)

Now, even if the SSJ2/SSJ3 multipliers were the same in GT as they were in Z(in all likelihood, they were probably much greater), it still means SSJ2 GT Goku would have been 200x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and SSJ3 GT Goku would have been 800x> SSJ3 Z Goku. If we then use the commonly accepted 10x multiplier from a SSJ3 to a SSJ4(which honestly makes sense, as a SSJ4 was powerful enough to override a wish from the phucking Black Star Dragon), it puts SSJ4 Goku at 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku.

Then consider that Omega Shenron was able to effortlessly tool SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta simultaneously(both of whom were, again, thousands of times more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.) And finally, you have SSJ4 Gogeta who utterly demolished Omega Shenron in one of the most one-sided battles I've ever seen.

Suffice to say: the GT multipliers were asinine. Much, much larger than most realize. I really don't think Bills can bridge such a massive gap.

Originally posted by carver9
then it was stated that Bill took out an entire Galaxy instantly. Yup. Makes you wonder what an all-out SSJ4 Goku, Omega Shenron, or SSJ4 Gogeta would be capable of, eh?

Originally posted by carver9
This doesn't include him flying from one end of the DBZ verse to the other in 26 min. From what we saw, Whis did the flying. Not Bills.

Originally posted by BloodRain
With statements Bills clears.

With feats he stops at SS3 Goku.

Flying through moons/destroying them like nothing~

I dunno...

Here's a view of the moons/planetoids Bills Destroyed:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16768006_1.jpg

A closer look:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16768008_3.jpg

An even closer look:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16768009_4.jpg


Imo, they look extremely small-- around the size of King Kai's planet, perhaps..? Even SSJ3 Goku was able to punch a ginormous hole straight through King Kai's planet without gaining any sort of flight-speed, like Bills had. Had those moons/planetoids been full-size planets, then Bills' feat would be gargantuan... But as it stands, I'm not sure I'd rank that feat as high as some. His other feats(ie. tooling every single Z fighter effortlessly while holding back) are much more impressive.

You guys are really underestimating the size of King Kai's world. It is basically just an asteroid. Were it not round you could see pretty much everything there. It has less overall land mass than a small town(or even some yards lol).

Compare that to Bills moons which seem to have some sort of atmosphere that keeps you from seeing the surface area. Add onto the fact that the Supreme Kais, who are insignificant in rank next to Bills, have quite the normal size moons and I can't see why Bills would have such tiny places. Granted he doesn't need but neither did the Supreme Kais lol.

Not saying you're wrong just trying to discuss a feat.

I don't know, man... The planetoids Bills destroyed look much, much smaller than normal size planets/moons to me. /shrug

It is hard to eyeball it and not helping matters is Bills world not looking like a planet at all. Arguments can be made for both point of views though.

If they are just King Kai sized moons then the feat is so so but if the intention if for them to be more or less the size of our moon then the feat is awesome.

@Galan...

I understand everything you're saying, I just can see SS4 Goku one shotting Majin Buu, Gohan, etc...like Bills did. Cell and Frieza isn't comparable to any of the people I've named...not even close. Don't know why Omega Shenron was brought up...we would have to get a bead on where Goku stands against Bills first in order to determine if OS stands a chance against Bill. Also, do you truly believe SS4 Goku can take a SS3 down with a touch like Bill did? I honestly can't see it. The Gohan that Bill one shotted was the same Gohan that was>>>>SS3.

Carver think of this. Base Gokou in GT as a kid is on par with ssj3 Gokou that was owned by Bills with ease. So ssj4 Gokou is at the lowest 8,000x stronger than the Gokou that Bills fought. So yes, ssj4 Gokou, scaled power level wise anyway, could take the z fighters down from end of z just as easily as Bills did.

Originally posted by Kento
Carver think of this. Base Gokou in GT as a kid is on par with ssj3 Gokou that was owned by Bills with ease. So ssj4 Gokou is at the lowest 8,000x stronger than the Gokou that Bills fought. So yes, ssj4 Gokou, scaled power level wise anyway, could take the z fighters down from end of z just as easily as Bills did.

What showing from GT makes you think base Goku is as strong as SS3 Goku?

Originally posted by carver9
What showing from GT makes you think base Goku is as strong as SS3 Goku? Have you read what Galan has said? Base Kid Gokou was able to fight Rildo who Gokou stated to be stronger than Majin Buu. SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga was weaker than Majin Buu. So power level wise, not feats, just stated facts from GT, Kid Gokou at base is as strong as he was when he fights Bills.

Originally posted by Kento
Carver think of this. Base Gokou in GT as a kid is on par with ssj3 Gokou that was owned by Bills with ease. So ssj4 Gokou is at the lowest 8,000x stronger than the Gokou that Bills fought. So yes, ssj4 Gokou, scaled power level wise anyway, could take the z fighters down from end of z just as easily as Bills did. Originally posted by Kento
Have you read what Galan has said? Base Kid Gokou was able to fight Rildo who Gokou stated to be stronger than Majin Buu. SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga was weaker than Majin Buu. So power level wise, not feats, just stated facts from GT, Kid Gokou at base is as strong as he was when he fights Bills.

Originally posted by Kento
Have you read what Galan has said? Base Kid Gokou was able to fight Rildo who Gokou stated to be stronger than Majin Buu. SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga was weaker than Majin Buu. So power level wise, not feats, just stated facts from GT, Kid Gokou at base is as strong as he was when he fights Bills.

But Base Goku was unable to defeat a full powered Rildo, he had to go Super Saiyan and even then, he didn't have enough power to get the job done due to Rildo metallic form.

You can't compare the SS3 Goku to the one that fought Buu. A lot of time passed since their last confrontation with Buu and SS3 Goku pretty much trained during that large gap. I can understand if Goku sat around like Gohun did but as shown on the KI planet, he was still going through stages of training.

Also, Super Saiyan 3 Goku said that he can beat both Fat Buu and Kid Buu with one attack.

Originally posted by carver9
But Base Goku was unable to defeat a full powered Rildo, he had to go Super Saiyan and even then, he didn't have enough power to get the job done due to Rildo metallic form.

You can't compare the SS3 Goku to the one that fought Buu. A lot of time passed since their last confrontation with Buu and SS3 Goku pretty much trained during that large gap. I can understand if Goku sat around like Gohun did but as shown on the KI planet, he was still going through stages of training.

Also, Super Saiyan 3 Goku said that he can beat both Fat Buu and Kid Buu with one attack. Which, means nothing except that Base Kid Gokou is still above Buu Saga ssj3 Gokou's level in GT.

Four years. That's enough time for ssj3 Gokou to have become > Kid Buu when he was lower than. Which puts them heavily in the same ballpark. And it's still BASE Gokou. Even if SSJ3 BoTG Gokou is even 100x stronger in four years. A ssj amp to GT Gokou was 100x. In the end ssj4 is still 8,000x to 32,000x stronger than the ssj3 Gokou from Buu Saga depending on if the other ssj multipliers double also or stay the same.

Which he proves about Fat Buu by hanging with Kid Buu, who decimated Fat Buu and Vegeta who are roughly equal. As for Kid Buu, the Buu's aren't really known for their durability, he just needed to create a blast strong enough that would completely erase someone he was equal too, and we've already shown they can create blasts that exceed over people stronger than them anyway. Also, that's not taking into account they still had no real idea Buu's power.

Kento...

I understand everything you've just said, great points actually, I just don't think they can beat Bills...that's all.

I say they can

Besides comparing GT!Base to Buu, there's also Frieza. Its stated that BoG!Base is weaker than Frieza. GT!Base was playfully kicking around a iirc trained up Frieza and Cell together, let alone being on the level of Buu.

(Unnamed stages are all Goku)
BoG!Base < Frieza < Namek!SS1 < Pre-Android!SS1 << Androids < Post-Android!SS1 < Cell!SS1 < Cell << Cell!SS2 Gohan < Buu!SS2 << Buu!SS3 ≈ Majin Buu ≈ Base!Rildo ≈ GT!Base




If BoG!Goku can go from below Frieza to above Buu, picture how high GT!Goku will rise with his base being at this level.

The only way you can say Bills (not via possible feats but with scaling) has a chance against GT!Goku is to show that the difference between GT!Base and Bills is around the same as that of BoG!Base and Majin Buu.
The difference between BoG!SS3 and Bills would have to be around the same as that of BoG!Base and Majin Buu, if Bills is to defeat any form of GT!Goku.

What does BOG stands for.?

Battle of Gods.

Don't remember anything saying base Goku was weaker than Frieza.

Someone in fact posted the scene scans of it here, with Bills stating Goku as he is now could not defeat Frieza, which King Kai agrees to.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Besides comparing GT!Base to Buu, there's also Frieza. Its stated that BoG!Base is weaker than Frieza. GT!Base was playfully kicking around a iirc trained up Frieza and Cell together, let alone being on the level of Buu.

(Unnamed stages are all Goku)
BoG!Base < Frieza < Namek!SS1 < Pre-Android!SS1 << Androids < Post-Android!SS1 < Cell!SS1 < Cell << Cell!SS2 Gohan < Buu!SS2 << Buu!SS3 ≈ Majin Buu ≈ Base!Rildo ≈ GT!Base




If BoG!Goku can go from below Frieza to above Buu, picture how high GT!Goku will rise with his base being at this level.

The only way you can say Bills (not via possible feats but with scaling) has a chance against GT!Goku is to show that the difference between GT!Base and Bills is around the same as that of BoG!Base and Majin Buu.
The difference between BoG!SS3 and Bills would have to be around the same as that of BoG!Base and Majin Buu, if Bills is to defeat any form of GT!Goku. it's really as simple as that.

In BoG, Frieza was still more powerful than base Goku. In GT, base Goku was not only more powerful than Frieza, but he was also more powerful than Super-Perfect Cell. In fact, "more powerful" is an understatement, considering the effortless nature in which Goku trounced them. And if Goku was able to tool Cell+Frieza like they were fodder, then it gives credence to his claim that base Rildo was "more powerful than Majin Buu", as base Goku was only able to stalemate Rildo.
ie. base Rildo~base Goku>>>>Cell>>>>>>>>Frieza.

This is important because in Z, Goku didn't reach Buu-level power until he became a SSJ3.
ie. base Goku(GT)~/>SSJ3 Goku(Z).

...Then Goku transformed into a standard SSJ which, per Rildo, increased his power by "a hundred fold." Thus, GT Goku is, at the very least, 100x> SSJ3 Z Goku, as a friggin' SSJ1.

Lol, ridic.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Someone in fact posted the scene scans of it here, with Bills stating Goku as he is now could not defeat Frieza, which King Kai agrees to. I posted it here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=576756&pagenumber=21#post14465376

Originally posted by BloodRain
Someone in fact posted the scene scans of it here, with Bills stating Goku as he is now could not defeat Frieza, which King Kai agrees to.

Lol...that wasn't a powered up base Goku though. Lets not forget, the Goku that fought Frieza and Cell almost blew up the heavens when he powered up. So, yeah, I agree with You, base Goku during GT is more powerful than a non powered up base Goku.

Which with BoG saying Base Gokou is < Freeza, it skews power levels a whole lot.

Bills(a phucking GOD) states that base Goku would not be able to defeat Frieza. KING KAI(the guy who has trained Goku for several years, and knows his power intimately) then AGREES with Bills' assessment.

This means base Goku, without the kaioken or SSJ multipliers, does not possess more power than Frieza, even if he powers up.
ie. Goku's base PL in BoG<120,000,000.

Simple.

Originally posted by Kento
Which with BoG saying Base Gokou is < Freeza, it skews power levels a whole lot.

I agree with you. A fully powered base Goku is greater than a non powered up base Goku. Goku almost destroyed everything when he powered up in GT in his base form, Goku in BOG didn't get the luxury of showcasing like GT Goku did.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...that wasn't a powered up base Goku though. Lets not forget, the Goku that fought Frieza and Cell almost blew up the heavens when he powered up. So, yeah, I agree with You, base Goku during GT is more powerful than a non powered up base Goku.

You could possibly make this comment, possibly, it it was not for King Kai seconding it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Bills(a phucking GOD) states that base Goku would not be able to defeat Frieza. KING KAI(the guy who has trained Goku for several years, and knows his power intimately) then AGREES with Bills' assessment.

This means base Goku, without the kaioken or SSJ multipliers, does not possess more power than Frieza.
ie. Goku's base PL in BoG<120,000,000.

Simple.

I understand that...base Goku during GT was a plot...lets not forget, he defeated an android that took out the entire group of Z fighters effortlessly. I agree with you but you also have to look at other factors as well.

Originally posted by BloodRain
You could possibly make this comment, possibly, it it was not for King Kai seconding it.

Like I've stated, I agree but I think we can also agree that Kao K Goku would work Frieza as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
Bills(a phucking GOD) states that base Goku would not be able to defeat Frieza. KING KAI(the guy who has trained Goku for several years, and knows his power intimately) then AGREES with Bills' assessment.

This means base Goku, without the kaioken or SSJ multipliers, does not possess more power than Frieza.
ie. Goku's base PL in BoG<120,000,000.

Simple. It was said, and its the newest thing to come out. It just messes up a lot of things. Like how Vegeta or Gokou expected to have any kind of fight against 18 or win with ssj forms not allowed during Buu Saga.

Or that in like ten years Gokou can't get 50x more powerful than he was on Namek. When in 2 years he went from 400 to 3,000,000

Or how base Vegeta > ssj Kid Trunks who is in the same ballpark as 18.

Originally posted by carver9
I understand that...base Goku during GT was a plot...lets not forget, he defeated an android that took out the entire group of Z fighters effortlessly. I agree with you but you also have to look at other factors as well. There are no other factors.

Bills is a God who gave us no reason whatsoever to question his word while assessing his opponent's power. King Kai has trained Goku since the Saiyan saga, and has literally watched his power evolve first hand over the years. They BOTH agreed that base Goku<Frieza, without power multipliers like SSJ(and I would assume, kaioken.)

The evidence is unarguable.

The guys just not catching a break..
Originally posted by carver9
Like I've stated, I agree but I think we can also agree that Kao K Goku would work Frieza as well. Without a doubt Kaioken Goku would defeat Frieze. I'd even be surprised if he needed to go as high as x3. But the point is that BoG!Base is below Frieza, which on the scale means the Goku that fought Bills can be compared to GT!Base.

Originally posted by Kento
It was said, and its the newest thing to come out. It just messes up a lot of things. Like how Vegeta or Gokou expected to have any kind of fight against 18 or win with ssj forms not allowed during Buu Saga.

Or that in like ten years Gokou can't get 50x more powerful than he was on Namek. When in 2 years he went from 400 to 3,000,000

Or how base Vegeta > ssj Kid Trunks who is in the same ballpark as 18. That post wasn't directed at you, btw.

Regardless, Bills' comment does make it seem like base Goku's PL was at least close to Frieza's. So if base Goku had a PL of 100m in BoG(which is reasonable in comparison to Frieza's PL of 120m), it puts his SSJ PL at 5b, his SSJ2 PL at 10b, and his SSJ3 PL at 40b *m=million, b=billion*

...Personally, I don't see the problem. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
That post wasn't directed at you, btw.

Regardless, Bills' comment does make it seem like base Goku's PL was at least close to Frieza's. So if base Goku had a PL of 100m in BoG(which is reasonable in comparison to Frieza's PL of 120m), it puts his SSJ PL at 5b, his SSJ2 PL at 10b, and his SSJ3 PL at 40b *m=million, b=billion*

...Personally, I don't see the problem. /shrug I know, I just have a hard time buying Base Gokou < Freeza five years after Buu Saga.

The things Goten and Trunks do mostly, and the length of time, and the much high power gap Gokou and the Z fighters crossed in half the time.

Originally posted by Kento
I know, I just have a hard time buying Base Gokou < Freeza five years after Buu Saga.

The things Goten and Trunks do mostly, and the length of time, and the much high power gap Gokou and the Z fighters crossed in half the time. I agree, but hey, Akira was all about retcons/changes/revelations in this movie... He used the film to retool the DBZ-verse's entire fraggin' cosmological structure, for crying out loud.

But with that movie it also proves Tarble is canon. Who Goten and Trunks fought Freeza level beings. And while it just says as strong as Freeza, it is impossible to be first form Freeza, because 50x his first form doesn't come anywhere close to his full power. And at ssj they are a match for 18. So right there 18 has to be at least 50x more powerful than Final Form Freeza. Based off of feats. Which means that anybody that's stronger than her just super saiyan is > Freeza at base.

It just throws everything out of wack. Because if Gokou isn't freeza level 17 years after Freeza, then Cell isn't really that much more powerful than Freeza. And his solar system boasting really goes down hill.

How powerful is the Super Saiyan God form in comparison to an SS3? We already know that the SS4 Goku is roughly 8000x stronger than the SS3 Goku whom Bills 2-shotted, but without a proper gauging of the SSG's level of power, it's difficult to decide how Bills would hypothetically fare against GT's SS4s.

How does Vegeta measure up to non-god Goku now?

I would presume that he's close, but not quite Goku's equal.

Like always.

Talking about Pissed!Vegeta, when Roshi said he finally surpassed Goku and managed to draw blood from Bills.

He's clearly beyond SS3, as evidenced by Roshi's own remarks and Vegeta's performance against Bills as compared to other Z fighters(including Fat Buu and Mystic Gohan).

There really is no way to know how much an amp ssjg was to Gokou.

As for Vegeta, one does think that Gohan's rage amp is a saiyan specialty

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
He's clearly beyond SS3, as evidenced by Roshi's own remarks and Vegeta's performance against Bills as compared to other Z fighters(including Fat Buu and Mystic Gohan). Then its another rewrite that Vegeta at the same level is 4x Goku?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Then its another rewrite that Vegeta at the same level is 4x Goku? No, he was able to hurt Bills. Ssj2 Rage Vegeta is clearly above ssj3 Gokou. So more like 6 or 7x stronger than ssj2 Gokou.

Who's Bills?

Originally posted by Kento
Which with BoG saying Base Gokou is < Freeza, it skews power levels a whole lot.

Yeah, that really doesn't make much sense at all. Goku at base form at this point should be noticeably beyond Freeza. Maybe Bills was sensing base base Goku.

Even Gotenks and kid Trunks as Super Saiyans can beat Freeza at this point no?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yeah, that really doesn't make much sense at all. Goku at base form at this point should be noticeably beyond Freeza. Maybe Bills was sensing base base Goku.

Even Gotenks and kid Trunks as Super Saiyans can beat Freeza at this point no? Feats say so, Bills say no

Originally posted by Kento
But with that movie it also proves Tarble is canon. Who Goten and Trunks fought Freeza level beings. And while it just says as strong as Freeza, it is impossible to be first form Freeza, because 50x his first form doesn't come anywhere close to his full power. It was first form Frieza that Tarble compared Abo and Kado to-- it couldn't have been anything else. Remember, Frieza outright stated that not even King Vegeta himself(who was older than Vegeta and Tarble) ever got to see his first transformed state-- let alone his final form. Heck, Frieza implied that no one aside from his family had ever got to see his final form before Namek.

Originally posted by Kento
And at ssj they are a match for 18. Not really. #18 made a few comments that the boys(posing as "Mighty Mask" were very strong, but they never "matched" her by any stretch. N00b SSJ Vegeta, for example, did much better against her then the kids did.

Originally posted by Kento
It just throws everything out of wack. Because if Gokou isn't freeza level 17 years after Freeza, then Cell isn't really that much more powerful than Freeza. And his solar system boasting really goes down hill. Think about it...

When Gohan ascended to a SSJ2, the other Z fighters were completely awestruck... They were literally marveling at such a massive boost in power. However, Gohan's PL 'only' doubled when he became a SSJ2. Based on that, I think we can assume no other single power-gains made during the Cell-saga(ie. the jump from a standard/n00b SSJ, to an ASSJ, to a FPSSJ) were anywhere near 2x. It seems like many people have a preconceived notion that the Saiyans' PLs had to have increased by many orders of magnitude during this saga-- simply put: this is not true. Granted, when you're dealing with power levels in the billions, it's easy to forget that a PL increase of just 500,000(as an example) is still extremely massive-- it is, essentially, the difference between an average human being and base Frieza. Gargantuan, really.

Anyway, here's what we know:
Super-Perfect Cell~SSJ2 Gohan 2x> Perfect Cell>FPSSJ Goku/Gohan>ASSJ Vegeta/Trunks>>2nd Stage Cell>>#16=Imperfect Cell>>Kamiccolo=#17>#18>>n00b SSJ Vegeta/Goku>>100% Frieza.

So yes, Cell still was vastly more powerful than Frieza. /shrug

Originally posted by Kento
Feats say so, Bills say no King Kai also says no.

Originally posted by Kento
Feats say so, Bills say no

Maybe Bills was sensing Goku's energy at it's lowest. I mean, Future Trunks was already way more powerful then Frieza as a Super Saiyan the moment he appeared right?

What does SSJ Trunks have to do with base Goku?

Originally posted by Galan007
It was first form Frieza that Tarble compared Abo and Kado to-- it couldn't have been anything else. Remember, Frieza outright stated that not even King Vegeta himself(who was older than Vegeta and Tarble) ever got to see his first transformed state-- let alone his final form. Heck, Frieza implied that no one aside from his family had ever got to see his final form before Namek.

Not really. #18 made a few comments that the boys(posing as "Mighty Mask" were very strong, but they never "matched" her by any stretch. N00b SSJ Vegeta, for example, did much better against her then the kids did.

Think about it...

When Gohan ascended to a SSJ2, the other Z fighters were completely awestruck... They were literally marveling at such a massive boost in power. However, Gohan's PL 'only' doubled when he became a SSJ2. Based on that, I think we can assume no other single power-gains made during the Cell-saga(ie. the jump from a standard/n00b SSJ, to an ASSJ, to a FPSSJ) were anywhere near 2x. It seems like many people have a preconceived notion that the Saiyans' PLs had to have increased by many orders of magnitude during this saga-- simply put: this is not true. Granted, when you're dealing with power levels in the billions, it's easy to forget that a PL increase of just 500,000(as an example) is still extremely massive-- it is, essentially, the difference between an average human being and base Frieza. Gargantuan, really.

Anyway, here's what we know:
Super-Perfect Cell~SSJ2 Gohan 2x> Perfect Cell>FPSSJ Goku/Gohan>ASSJ Vegeta/Trunks>>2nd Stage Cell>>#16=Imperfect Cell>>Kamiccolo=#17>#18>>n00b SSJ Vegeta/Goku>>100% Frieza.

So yes, Cell still was vastly more powerful than Frieza. /shrug

King Kai also says no. Gokou only knew Final Form Freeza, and Vegeta also knew Freeza's final power level, and neither one say anything about them being lower then Freeza. Just that Freeza is weak.

They were able to tag her at base, and hurt her. That's more than someone at Freeza's level could do. 18 > Future 18 > SSJ Future Trunks first visit > Mecha Freeza. And Future Trunks wasn't able to so much as budge his futures 18 or hurt her with blasts. So there is that too.

But it's not a huge enough leap to go from planet destroying, to galaxy destroying. When Cell Saga's characters would literally be only 10x stronger.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Maybe Bills was sensing Goku's energy at it's lowest. I mean, Future Trunks was already way more powerful then Frieza as a Super Saiyan the moment he appeared right?
You might be onto something here. When one of Freiza's henchmen tried to check base Trunk's PL, the number was in the single or double digits. That's what made them so cocky as to try and take on him on their own.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Then its another rewrite that Vegeta at the same level is 4x Goku?
More like beyond that level. Rage-powered-SS2-Vegeta>>SS3 Goku~Mystic Gohan>Fat Buu.

That's the way I see it anyways. /shrugs

Makes complete sense.

It doesn't. But I'm sure thinking about it would hurt.. so it makes sense.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Makes complete sense.

It doesn't. But I'm sure thinking about it would hurt.. so it makes sense.

lol

Originally posted by Kento
Gokou only knew Final Form Freeza, and Vegeta also knew Freeza's final power level, and neither one say anything about them being lower then Freeza. Just that Freeza is weak. Goku and Vegeta knew what the PLs of ALL Frieza's transformed states were; so Goku stating that Frieza "wasn't much of a foe, in hindsight" gives us absolutely no clue as to which specific transformed state he was referencing.

We know for a fact, however, that Tarble could have only been using base Frieza as a gauge, because he would have never encountered any of Frieza's other transformations.

Originally posted by Kento
They were able to tag her at base, and hurt her. That's more than someone at Freeza's level could do. 18 > Future 18 > SSJ Future Trunks first visit > Mecha Freeza. And Future Trunks wasn't able to so much as budge his futures 18 or hurt her with blasts. So there is that too. In the manga, they never tagged OR hurt #18... And they most certainly didn't "match" her by any stretch of the word. Like I said before: Vegeta, as a n00b SSJ, did WAY better against #18 then the boys ever managed, yet he still never came remotely close to "matching" her.

Aside from that, comparing the 2 versions of Trunks is faulty. Future Trunks was from a divergent/alternate reality, in which he never even became a SSJ until much later in life than 'mainstream' Trunks... They weren't the same character, is what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Kento
But it's not a huge enough leap to go from planet destroying, to galaxy destroying. When Cell Saga's characters would literally be only 10x stronger. Base Frieza effortlessly destroyed a planet with his index finger-- clearly he could have destroyed much more than a singular planet had he bothered powering up... And his final form was 22,541.5% more powerful than his base form, so there's that. /shrug

Anyway, Cell's boast is just that: a boast. There is no way to definitively prove or disprove it... Never has been.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You might be onto something here. When one of Freiza's henchmen tried to check base Trunk's PL, the number was in the single or double digits. That's what made them so cocky as to try and take on him on their own. Even the Z fighters can sense when someone is suppressing their power-- and I would assume that Bills' ability to sense ki is no less than equal to theirs... Especially when you consider that King Kai(who is intimately familiar with Goku's power) agreed with Bills' assessment.

KK's statement is what solidifies the scene, imo.