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who wins? takes place aboard The Leviathan

I think he'd have some trouble, but I think he can probably take them. Malak off the Star Forge doesn't really have much to his name and Revan has even less. They're basically unknown.

Well Revan has defeated Mandalore the Ultimate, Yusanis, and Malak in lightsaber duel (and dont gimme bullcrap that the first 2 are non-force sensetives, think back to Vizla vs obi wan/Maul/Ahsoka), and both could control the star forge (most who tried to do so went insane). Malak had mastery over a variety of force abilities, and was considered one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy, while Revan was probably the #1 for his time. Revan has been stated (by Bane) to know dark side techniques none would even attempt. He was also adept in the use of force choke and force lightning, coupled with his far-above-average connection to the force. I'm not saying the duo would win, but I think they have a good chance of doing so.

The Duo.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well Revan has defeated Mandalore the Ultimate, Yusanis, and Malak in lightsaber duel (and dont gimme bullcrap that the first 2 are non-force sensetives, think back to Vizla vs obi wan/Maul/Ahsoka), and both could control the star forge (most who tried to do so went insane). Malak had mastery over a variety of force abilities, and was considered one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy, while Revan was probably the #1 for his time. Revan has been stated (by Bane) to know dark side techniques none would even attempt. He was also adept in the use of force choke and force lightning, coupled with his far-above-average connection to the force. I'm not saying the duo would win, but I think they have a good chance of doing so.

Good for them. That's still all rather generic, vague information that doesn't put them on Malgus' level in terms of combat.

The problem is that they're almost completely unknown. Could they beat him in lightsaber combat? Who knows, we don't know much about either of their abilities in that field in order to make that call. Being good swordsman doesn't put them above Malgus, even together. The Force? Again, lack of info. Being adept at choke and lightning and having command over a variety of abilities doesn't put them above Malgus, who has actual powerful Force feats to back him up.

They simply lack the evidence that they need to suggest that they can challenge Malgus. Without evidence we cannot make a case for them on anything but gut feeling.

How so? Forgot to mention peeps need to give reason for your choice would win.

Edit: directed towards ares

Wait are we not allowed to use post-KotOR Revan's feats here?

If so, it becomes impossible to argue.

I personally think Malgus edges it. Why? Does have superior lightsaber feats, has been stated by Sidious himself as one of the most powerful sith lords ever, has displayed very powerful force lightning, and has displayed powerful use of the haxx force maelstrom ability.

Originally posted by ares834
Wait are we not allowed to use post-KotOR Revan's feats here?

If so, it becomes impossible to argue.

Only post KotOR things I can think of (that we can really speculate) are impressive TK and force lightning storms.

As usual, I go for the numbers.

Well, an amp'd Malak could Force Choke two Jedi at once, and then kill them simultaneously with a saber throw and lightning blast. DR's better than him, as shown when he cut off his jaw. Together I'd say they've got a good shot. Not sure if they can actually take it though.

Via powerscaling:
Malgus > Darth Revan > Darth Malak

but....

Darth Revan + Darth Malak > Malgus, probably

The trump card against the team (imo) is the force maelstrom.

We know next to nothing about the Darth version of Revan and Malak has not shown anything very impressive in terms of feats and combat abilities.

If this was 'reborn' Revan , plus Darth Malak, they would most definitely take Malgus.

Was Reborn Revan a master of both light and dark?

Yes.

I wouldn't say he mastered both light and dark, he utilized them to impressive efficiency though. Masters of light are Yoda/Luke/HoT, and masters of dark are sidious/plagueis/vitiate etc.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Only post KotOR things I can think of (that we can really speculate) are impressive TK and force lightning storms.

Huh? Post-KotoR Revan would be "Revan reborn" as seen in the novel "Darth Revan". And there we would have his little confrontation with Darth Nyriss. In case somebody forgot:

Darth Nyriss apparently was some nice Sith Witch, who was quite the scholary type, spending most of her time in her private library, where "the walls were lined with shelves, their ancient wooden frames warped by the weight of the treasures they bore." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.37). A library including "dozens - if not hundreds - of volumes" (same source), which had "an antiquated look about them, though most appeared to be preserved in good condition, if somewhat worn from use." (same source).

Now Nyriss essentially reveals the extend of her power, trying to keep Revan as her prisoner. Unfortunatelly, two guards move in her way:
"A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.250)

Right after that, she confronts Lord Scourge and Meetra (aka "The Exile":
"Before they could recover , she lept at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her primethat immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive." (same source)

Now, having had enough of the lightsaber fight, she prepares to annihilate the duo with the Dark Side of the Force:

"Scourge felt the energy buidling inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.251)

Time for Revan to move into the fight:
"A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemiesRevan stepped forward to intercept it.He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.251f.)

"Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against herThe lightning engulged her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.252)

The very same source calls Revan as "the Jedi Order's most powerful champion" (p.49), who "had learned too much about the Force, both the light side and the dark, to take instruction like some common Padawan." (p.65). To reinforce that assessment, Meetra (having gone through the events of KotoR II at that point in time, if I may remind the reader), thinks that "Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met." (p.230)

Note that the statement about him being "the Jedi Order's most powerful champion" was made in context of him defeating Mandalore in personal combat. So even before he became Darth Revan, he was - seemingly - the most powerful Jedi of his time. Now add to this power the knowledge he gathered from Malachor V - dating back to the Ancient Sith, and, seemingly, enough to frighten Darth Bane in "Path of Destruction", and you can probably conclude that even Darth Revan was a pretty nice powerhouse.

Yet, what do we have regarding Malgus, to put him into such a lofty position? From what I've seen / read, post-KotoR Revan could annihilate him on his own. Darth Revan might also be capable of bringing him down alone. A combination of Revan / Malak will most certainly be up to the task.

Malgus was very good with a lightsaber, and at least less of an unknown with that than Revan. But his force maelstrom wouldn't be enough to go through both Malak and Revan. Btw it's nice to have the German back. The PT wank has gotten out of hand and I felt little conflict as the only Jew here.

actually, the novel is called SWTOR: Revan (not darth revan), and malgus could most definitely take darth revan on his own, and maybe revan reborn. Malgus was no joke in lightsaber combat (he actually has better feats than revan), and he has demonstrated more powerful force abilities. Darth Revan is virtually featless 9in terms of force abilities), and therefore we can only really go on speculation. Post KotoR revan might be able to beat malgus, but he falls short on lightsaber feats as well, therefore again, difficult to speculate on.

In terms of force powers, Malgus doesn't compare to Revan. In terms of combat prowess, it seems Malgus was born for it. I don't think Revan wins if it's a close combat fight. His best chance is to keep his distance.

Originally posted by sfriends23282
In terms of force powers, Malgus doesn't compare to Revan. In terms of combat prowess, it seems Malgus was born for it. I don't think Revan wins if it's a close combat fight. His best chance is to keep his distance.

???

Malgus has mastered the force maelstrom ability, an ability only two others seem to have mastered, those two being a. The most powerful sith in history, and b. The ultimate mary sue marek. What canonical force abilities has Revan shown, other then vastly impressive tutaminis, impressive TK, healing, and lightning?

You answered your own question. You also forgot that sick force storm he threw back at Nyriss. Which means Malgus isn't winning with that.

The "sick Force storm" was Nyriss's own energies. SUPREMESKILL referenced that as tutaminis.

Still impressive.

Yes, that was implied by "threw back at Nyriss".

Right, but SUPREMESKILL already mentioned that and didn't forget it like you said.

Originally posted by Nai
Huh? Post-KotoR Revan would be "Revan reborn" as seen in the novel "Darth Revan". And there we would have his little confrontation with Darth Nyriss. In case somebody forgot:

Darth Nyriss apparently was some nice Sith Witch, who was quite the scholary type, spending most of her time in her private library, where "the walls were lined with shelves, their ancient wooden frames warped by the weight of the treasures they bore." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.37). A library including "dozens - if not hundreds - of volumes" (same source), which had "an antiquated look about them, though most appeared to be preserved in good condition, if somewhat worn from use." (same source).

Now Nyriss essentially reveals the extend of her power, trying to keep Revan as her prisoner. Unfortunatelly, two guards move in her way:
"A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.250)

Right after that, she confronts Lord Scourge and Meetra (aka "The Exile":
"Before they could recover , she lept at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her primethat immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive." (same source)

Now, having had enough of the lightsaber fight, she prepares to annihilate the duo with the Dark Side of the Force:

"Scourge felt the energy buidling inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.251)

Time for Revan to move into the fight:
"A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemiesRevan stepped forward to intercept it.He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.251f.)

"Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against herThe lightning engulged her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash." (Darth Revan, iBook, p.252)

The very same source calls Revan as "the Jedi Order's most powerful champion" (p.49), who "had learned too much about the Force, both the light side and the dark, to take instruction like some common Padawan." (p.65). To reinforce that assessment, Meetra (having gone through the events of KotoR II at that point in time, if I may remind the reader), thinks that "Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met." (p.230)

Note that the statement about him being "the Jedi Order's most powerful champion" was made in context of him defeating Mandalore in personal combat. So even before he became Darth Revan, he was - seemingly - the most powerful Jedi of his time. Now add to this power the knowledge he gathered from Malachor V - dating back to the Ancient Sith, and, seemingly, enough to frighten Darth Bane in "Path of Destruction", and you can probably conclude that even Darth Revan was a pretty nice powerhouse.

Yet, what do we have regarding Malgus, to put him into such a lofty position? From what I've seen / read, post-KotoR Revan could annihilate him on his own. Darth Revan might also be capable of bringing him down alone. A combination of Revan / Malak will most certainly be up to the task.

I'm always amazed at how some writers ignore characters abilities to promote their favorite little so and sos. What happened to using lightsabers to block and channel energy? Jedi defense 101.

That was a poorly written encounter imv. They should have been able to subdue one council member in a 2 vs 1 fight. Even team busters like Dooku learn to retreat when confronted by skilled masters.

Originally posted by Allankles
I'm always amazed at how some writers ignore characters abilities to promote their favorite little so and sos. What happened to using lightsabers to block and channel energy? Jedi defense 101.

That was a poorly written encounter imv. They should have been able to subdue one council member in a 2 vs 1 fight. Even team busters like Dooku learn to retreat when confronted by skilled masters.

Revan in particular was not a stellar work. I hated it upon initial reading, and while I became less venomous upon rereading it, the work still stands as one of the least satisfying bits of lore I've read bar anything post-RotJ (much of which is rubbish).

However, Nai did a good job of pulling exact quotes to provide context, which is far more than we've seen in the defense of Malgus. Having not seen much of Malgus outside of the novels and the trailers for TOR, I'd like to see better arguments on his behalf.

Originally posted by sfriends23282
In terms of force powers, Malgus doesn't compare to Revan. In terms of combat prowess, it seems Malgus was born for it. I don't think Revan wins if it's a close combat fight. His best chance is to keep his distance.

Agree with this, though using powers drains a Jedi's reserves.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
However, Nai did a good job of pulling exact quotes to provide context, which is far more than we've seen in the defense of Malgus. Having not seen much of Malgus outside of the novels and the trailers for TOR, I'd like to see better arguments on his behalf.

Sidious describes Malgus in the Book of Sith as 'an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been equalled.'

In The Third Lesson while still mortally wounded by Satale Shan in the Hope trailer Malgus fights two Jedi. One of the Jedi collapses two large duracrete buildings on top of Malgus, who holds up the rubble before blasting it away. He engages the Jedi in lightsaber combat before sensing the second whom he kills easily by snapping his neck with the Force. Then the Jedi who collapsed the buildings on him charges, but Malgus blows through his lightsaber defense with his lightning, burning holes in his body with it before executing him.

In Deception Malgus kills 3 Jedi at once with a single burst of lightning. His Force Scream shatters a huge collumn. His Force Push kills a Jedi by blasting her across the temple and is described as powerful enough to splinter bone. He lifted 2 pieces of statuary and smashed them into each other hard enough to shatter them into a shower of stone. He's leaped to the ground from 50 meters up while creating a cocoon of power strong enough so that when he landed he shattered the stone and turned it into a hail of shrapnel. He's incredibly strong, at one point kicking Lord Adraas so hard he flies across a room and cracks a stone column in half and being described as stronger than Aryn Leneer, who herself was able to fling Malgus the length of an F-22 (20 meters). At the end of the novel he completely embraces the Dark Side and gains a massive boost of power making him beyond all the feats I just mentioned.

Finally in TOR Malgus fights either the Strike Team made up of the Republic or Empire players. Despite fighting such opponents as the Hero of Tython + Barsen'thor/Darth Nox + Emperor's Wrath he is able to bring them to their knees with a gout of lightning and toss them around in TK.

Ah, I remember Deception now. I need to reread it again; I haven't read it since it came out. Thank you.

Originally posted by sfriends23282
In terms of force powers, Malgus doesn't compare to Revan. In terms of combat prowess, it seems Malgus was born for it. I don't think Revan wins if it's a close combat fight. His best chance is to keep his distance.

How doesn't Malgus compare to Revan in a Force competition? He has considerably better feats.

I can sense the Revan hate flow through you...

Nah, not really. But it's true, really. He has no feats outside his novel, and in his novel he has no feats that are really applicable when fighting a guy like Malgus. Really.

Let's see, he blew open a blast door, collapsed a stone archway, redirected Nyriss's lightning, and Force Pushed Vitiate. He also used Force Healing pretty well.

Malgus on the other hand has blown away 2 buildings worth of rubble, shattered columns, blasted holes in Jedi with FL, and has shattered the bones of a group of guards with a Force Push.

Where exactly is Revan's huge advantage? I fail to see it.

Revan's the Heart of the Force.

I hope you're joking.

I'm not

Oh, and REVAN DEFEATED MALAK WHEN HE WAS AMPED BY A WHOLE RACE OF FORCE SENSITIVES, EASILY!!! KOTOR JEDI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PT JEDI

Thank god.

what?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Revan in particular was not a stellar work. I hated it upon initial reading, and while I became less venomous upon rereading it, the work still stands as one of the least satisfying bits of lore I've read bar anything post-RotJ (much of which is rubbish).

However, Nai did a good job of pulling exact quotes to provide context, which is far more than we've seen in the defense of Malgus. Having not seen much of Malgus outside of the novels and the trailers for TOR, I'd like to see better arguments on his behalf

Me too while the trailers were uberz, there's plenty of top tier guys who if they chose to go dark side who could match him, even eclipse him. Many of the Jedi of his time were caught with their pants down - so to speak - and don't represent the most talented or gifted Jedi ever to tread the SW universe.

Does anyone think Malgus would pwn masters like Yoda, Dooku, Mace et al? Even later time Jedi like Luke, Katarn, Korr, Jacen without going through hell first? He aint going to beat those guys without having to suffer a bit of heavy damage/punishment himself.

Also, we've seen while the dark side gives these guys a tremendous boost in power, abusing it like most Sith do, eventually makes you more and more a weak knee in the force over time, and even over the duration of a fight. Leaving practitioners open and vulnerable to more controlled, cold, calculated fighters who prefer absorbing force energy.

And I have a theory that later time force users can be more powerful or have the potential to be anyway due to increase of life in the galaxy i.e. the living force is growing, not shrinking.

Malgus is extremely calculating iirc. He's an angry dude, but not in a mindless way.

Originally posted by Allankles
Does anyone think Malgus would pwn masters like Yoda, Dooku, Mace et al? Even later time Jedi like Luke, Katarn, Korr, Jacen without going through hell first? He aint going to beat those guys without having to suffer a bit of heavy damage/punishment himself.

No, I doubt anyone thinks he can pwn those guys. I think he can beat a few of them though.

He could pwn Katarn and Korr. The rest would actually beat him, except maybe Mace or Dooku.

I'd say he beats everyone except Yoda, Mace and Luke.

Just to point this out--The text highly implies that Kyle Katarn probably couldn't have lasted much longer than literally five seconds against Caedus if it were not for his allies. So yeah, I don't think he's doing very well against Malgus either. Korr's weaker than Katarn.