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Darth Vader as of ROTJ where he is at his peak (includes all feats and performances of power in all canon games, IE TFU I-II/Comics/etc.)

Versus

Mace Windu as of ROTS

Vader barely.

WTF? You already made the same thread -.-
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t566038.html

You know...I tried searching for that but I couldnt find it...

Mace wins....Vader is slow and bulky.
Dun Moch won't save him...TK won't either...he'll be tired before Mace...
all that Force energy will be spent on tring to throw something w/TK ....
All Mace have to do is survive Vader's temper tandrum and either spare Vader or kill him...

Vader isn't ****ing slow.

All that bulky armor,lol ...dude read DVR ....it clearly states how disappointed he was with the new
look. He is stronger (physically) but fast or faster,in your dreams and in somebody's overly hyped
comic book...

even his cybernetics weren't top notch.
Sids crippled him further than he already was.
Why create a weapon stronger than you to surpass you?
Vader bearly surpasses anyone

Do you not know your Sith Lore?
Especially Plagueis's philosophy?
Better yet Palpatine's Creation of Monsters Philosophy?

dude,Vader is slow...

No he's not.

Why would you think Vader wins if Windu defeated Sidious?



Unless you think he threw the fight...

Yes.

Nah.

Whatever floats your boat.

If I want you to float in it?

It will be done with pleasure.

yes ,he is but he compensates his lack of speed with a personafied use of Djem So
and his limited Force abilities....I will always give him that but speed....lol...
if acrobatics tire him what do think speed does w/ all that armor?

tire him faster or as fast as the acrobatics.
you know how you like to attack? in groups
so you might need Dp and Zett to help you out,as always..so call for help .

because Vader is slow,he is bulky,and his Force potential has dropped due to his cybernetics.
his TK assaults will also tire him... and when they do he's beaten,just like starkiller beat him not once
but twice. ...twice....

Originally posted by juyomaster34


because Vader is slow,he is bulky,

This response is intended for anyone who thinks those things about Vader because of what they saw in the OT, which was made more than 30 years ago:



facepalm

^
It's clear, that Anakin is Vader's supierior in sabers. I can't see Vader winning a pure saber duel against Dooku, Windu or ROTS Kenobi.

He'd probably stalemate Kenobi.

Lucas stated, that Anakin and Obi-wan are superior duelits to Vader and "Ben".
Anyway, Vader is above ROTS Kenobi because of his force powers. But in pure saber duel, I give it to Kenobi.

When did he state that?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When did he state that?

One of the commentaries stating he wanted the PT to show the prime of saber combat, and that in ROTJ you only get half machines and old men dueling.

Fairly sure it's about TPM in that they were able to pull of a fast duel because we see Jedi in their prime.

he is still slow...no matter how they twist it.
he is no Greivous...Now Greivous was Fast....Faster than Vader.
30 yrs ago?

That armor slowed him down...
You ain't moving that fast in armor unless you are all machine
when he was flesh he was fast I give him that.. but in armor and half machine I don't think so.

just because some comic book comes along and say Vader's fast and etc. doesn't mean he's
fastest,ever ....not without a price....if he is that fast then the fatigue factor is a factor...

And with the right Master...which is Mace...This super Vader just gave him more Dark energy to
feed on and take him down....shatterpoint will pick up the flaws of the armor and Vaapad will do
the rest....Vader's dead....Mace won this fight before we even thought to reply to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCWOsOsdvSs -> 0:20+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErU0Mk7dqfs ->> from 00:00, its about "Golden Age of Jedi".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liEtSzWZPFo -> 0:10

Nothing proves that Kenobi is a better swordsman. But thanks for the info.

Kenobi beat and crippled Anakin/Vader says he IS the better swordsman.

That info proves nothing....He beat Anakin /Vader....
facts is facts.....All day long dead and buried...He beat him
He crippled him.
Whatelse is there to say we saw it..
We read it....
He's better than Anakin...he is the better swordsman.
Where Anakin only rivaled from what I seen and read only Dooku and Ventress...

The movies, the novels, the internet, its there you just don't want to accept it .
So look again I found it why can't you?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nothing proves that Kenobi is a better swordsman. But thanks for the info.

ROTS Kenobi is a better swordsman than TPM Vader. But Anakin is a vastly superior swordsman than ROTS Kenobi.

Yes, TPM Vader hadn't even learned to use the Force properly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yes, TPM Vader hadn't even learned to use the Force properly.

That's BS.

Yeah, I mean, TPM Vader was what, nine years old?

ok,I see your point,if he is superior why did he....lose?
I see what you're saying but he still lost...badly I might add...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah, I mean, TPM Vader was what, nine years old?

Bullshit. TPM Vader already was soloing Sebulba. biscuits

I meant ANH Vader

Lol.

Yes, he's a better swordsman than ANH Vader, so what? This does not prove he's a superior swordsman to RotJ Vader.

Lol...point taken stalemate....for now...lol ...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lol.

Yes, he's a better swordsman than ANH Vader, so what? This does not prove he's a superior swordsman to RotJ Vader.

He is a superior swordsman to ROTJ Vader. There is literally no canon evidence pointing to Vader being at the peak of his swordsmanship in ROTJ. Force power, could be argued, but not swordsmanship.

Except, you know, he becomes a better swordsman in between ESB and ANH?

^
Sources?

Given it so many times now it's ridiculous.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When did he state that?

ANH Audio commentary, scene where Ben fights Vader. He seems to be saying that they are both not as good as they were.

That I was well aware.

Does this imply that ROTJ Vader far ouclasses ROTS windu?

I wouldn't trust anonymous polls as good indicators. The debate seems rather unresolved. Does Mace have any CW showings?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I wouldn't trust anonymous polls as good indicators. The debate seems rather unresolved. Does Mace have any CW showings?

He force crushed 2 Destroyer droids and a few battle droids with 1 Force Wave.

That's it, huh?

Also moved a tank off a cliff.

Mace already had comparable Force feats in Shatterpoint, such as using a TK grip on an entire landslide, while, IIRC, working with some kind of big tank like vehicle.

I'm more interested in actual duels.

I don't think he's had a single duel in the new series, lol.

Weaksauce.

He's had a single episode to himself as far as I know.

We've seen him in action in a few episodes. Ryloth was the one with the main feats listed above. Then there was the one where they're chasing down Cad Bane. Then the Zillo Beast episode. And The first Boba Fett arc.

But yeah no major duels or anything.

Dave Filoni is prejudiced. Mace is black, gets no respect. Maul is black and red, is a kitten compared to his old self. Barriss is yellow, she is made evil for no good reason. You heard it here first.

Originally posted by Zett
^
It's clear, that Anakin is Vader's supierior in sabers.

Beg your pardon but no it's not. Darth Vader (ANH-ROTJ) is a way better swordsman than when he was Anakin.

Watch the climactic duel in ROTS. Anakin is spinning and twirling his lightsabre around, passing it from hand to hand, turning his back on his foe etc. All style, no substance.

Now watch Vader in the Original Trilogy. He's vastly more economic and energy-conservative with his movements. He looks like he's actually fighting, not just putting on a show.

"Anakin" may be faster but he's not more skilled.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dave Filoni is prejudiced. Mace is black, gets no respect. Maul is black and red, is a kitten compared to his old self. Barriss is yellow, she is made evil for no good reason. You heard it here first.

That's a very good point I think you're onto something.

Anakin would defeat OT Vader in a Saber fight.

ANH Vader would get owned by ROTS Anakin dude.

I wouldn't say that. Vader is an extremely good duelist. Yes, better than he was as Anakin in terms of skill. He is disadvantaged in terms of agilty, but I don't think that holds him back enough that he'd actually lose to his past self.

I haven't watched all of CW for obvious reasons (there's not enough Ragnos) but I suspect, based on my limited experience, it overwhelmingly favors whities (Obi-Wan, Sidious, and Anakin).

Also, I think there is a good argument for OT Vader stomping PT Vader. For one thing, ANH duel was entirely hamstrung by movie technology of the era. As I described before the lightsabers both required a power source hidden on the actors and were rather flimsy, so the fighting was minimal. This was alleviated by ESB, but the fights were mostly a mix of kendo and classic swashbuckling that's generic in most movies. The swordmaster, Bob Anderson IIRC, was himself an Olympic fencer.

Flash forward to the PT, you have Nick Gillard as the swordmaster and the sabers are much more resilient and cgi is advanced, so we have these wushu fights bordering on stupid. If I took the time (As I have done in the past with fights such as Sids v Yoda, TPM Finale, and Dooku v Yoda) to analyze them move for move, the PT fighters, while more acrobatic, are less efficient. They rotate like tops (which is foolish), they do not act as if they have precog consistently, and they randomly do absolutely stupid shit, like Yoda bouncing behind his opponents without striking, easily telegraphed front flips, and telegraphed stabs. The only good duelists in the PT are Maul and Dooku, becuase both were done by fighting experts. Ray Park, wushu practitioner, did Maul and an expert fencer who's name eludes me played Dooku's fighting double, although Chris Lee himself can fence.

Really swordfighting in the PT was dumb.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't say that. Vader is an extremely good duelist. Yes, better than he was as Anakin in terms of skill. He is disadvantaged in terms of agilty, but I don't think that holds him back enough that he'd actually lose to his past self.


Of course he'd lose a Saber duel to ROTS Anakin. Your talking about the guy who took out Count Dooku. And even as of TCW was consistently stalemating him.

Not that Vader isn't a Powerful Saber duelist. He obviously is. But you'd be hard pressed to make an argument that he's on par with the likes of Count Dooku.

An all out is a different game though. Since Vader is a Force Tk Beast. But even then I wouldn't count TCW/ROTS Skywalker out as he's shown he can tank a helluva lot of TK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But you'd be hard pressed to make an argument that he's on par with the likes of Count Dooku.

Uh....

Vader is the one who trained Galen "almost perfect lightsaber skills' Marek afterall. He also displayed great mastery in cobbling together various forms to create his unique style. He's demonstrated that he's an exemplary swordsman numerous times. He's shockingly strong and actually pretty damn fast. He's got the chops to challenge Dooku.

Back in 2005, people thought Dooku would lose to Vader because the latter had more physical strength.

Well Dooku is weak to Djem So after all!

Yeah, rock, paper, scissors, Spock, Djem So, Dooku.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Back in 2005, people thought Dooku would lose to Vader because the latter had more physical strength.
I still think so based on his saber fight with Marek. But most people would rather assume that Marek was lame in sabers despite being harshly trained like Maul from childhood.

I like to think of Marek as a Canon Stu and wish fulfillment on someone else's behalf. His inconsistent showings in the book break precedent and skew the general tiers so much he should arguably be excluded, since he is defeated by people with lower showings than his own in the Force.

At one point in the book Marek has actual trouble against one of Palpatines Shadow Guard.

It was Barriss in disguise. The plot thickens.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I haven't watched all of CW for obvious reasons (there's not enough Ragnos) but I suspect, based on my limited experience, it overwhelmingly favors whities (Obi-Wan, Sidious, and Anakin).

Also, I think there is a good argument for OT Vader stomping PT Vader. For one thing, ANH duel was entirely hamstrung by movie technology of the era. As I described before the lightsabers both required a power source hidden on the actors and were rather flimsy, so the fighting was minimal. This was alleviated by ESB, but the fights were mostly a mix of kendo and classic swashbuckling that's generic in most movies. The swordmaster, Bob Anderson IIRC, was himself an Olympic fencer.

Flash forward to the PT, you have Nick Gillard as the swordmaster and the sabers are much more resilient and cgi is advanced, so we have these wushu fights bordering on stupid. If I took the time (As I have done in the past with fights such as Sids v Yoda, TPM Finale, and Dooku v Yoda) to analyze them move for move, the PT fighters, while more acrobatic, are less efficient. They rotate like tops (which is foolish), they do not act as if they have precog consistently, and they randomly do absolutely stupid shit, like Yoda bouncing behind his opponents without striking, easily telegraphed front flips, and telegraphed stabs. The only good duelists in the PT are Maul and Dooku, becuase both were done by fighting experts. Ray Park, wushu practitioner, did Maul and an expert fencer who's name eludes me played Dooku's fighting double, although Chris Lee himself can fence.

Really swordfighting in the PT was dumb.

Exactly. I understand wanting the fight scenes to be more energetic, but they went way too over-the-top and as you say there was a lot of stuff that just looked stupid.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His inconsistent showings in the book break precedent and skew the general tiers so much he should arguably be excluded, since he is defeated by people with lower showings than his own in the Force.

No offence but when did Galen show any inconsistency in the novel? Also I can't recall him having any actual defeats.

Dooku wasn't that weak to Djem So. It's just a stupid part of Stover's novel, which is opposite to movie. Anakin had to use his fury and anger to defeat Count. Without a that, even with Kenobi's help, he was unable to overhelm Dooku.

It's confirmed by Lucas, that Kenobi and Anakin are in their prime as duelists in ROTS. IN ANH they are just "an old man" and "half machine-half man".

Vader is not bad duelist, but he's definitly not in Dooku's or Mace's or even ROTS Kenobi's league.
Galen also isn't a top duelist. As novel, and game confirms, he was unable to find any advantage in strict saber duel over Shaak Ti, who was nowhere near to Dooku or Mace.

Still, this fight is very close, since Vader is superior force user.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Exactly. I understand wanting the fight scenes to be more energetic, but they went way too over-the-top and as you say there was a lot of stuff that just looked stupid.



No offence but when did Galen show any inconsistency in the novel? Also I can't recall him having any actual defeats.

His Forcefeats include the most powerful TK I can think of, yet he struggled with Shaak Ti as Zett mentioned, struggled against an Imperial Guard, and didn't make a bloody smear out of Palps and Vader. If such feats are indicative of actual power, the guy is all over the place, from padawan to cosmic power..

Well actually...his force feats even at their highest showings do not surpass those displayed by Nihilus.

IE Nihilus lifting an entire star fleet of ships, which included the largest starship in Starwars Mythos. Furthermore Nihilus then lifted them through the atmosphere, passed the gravitational pull of the planet, and then created an artificial field of atmosphere for his crew. Nihilus then utilized his TK to hold together the star fleet in space, and move it through space with his TK.

Not downplaying Starkiller's feats, just stating they are not the highest showings of TK in the mythos.

On a nexus. Marek disintegrated half a frigate unaided.

I highly doubt the nexus extended past the atmosphere. Probably not even past the cloudline.

The upper atmosphere was actually supposed to be a wound itself, considering the battle of Malachor V. That's pretty much all over the dialogue in the game. So Nihilus' feat remains pretty bizarre.

In the commentary of ANH it's straight out said that Vader isn't as good as he was... and yet.. this is overlooked... odd

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh....

Vader is the one who trained Galen "almost perfect lightsaber skills' Marek afterall. He also displayed great mastery in cobbling together various forms to create his unique style. He's demonstrated that he's an exemplary swordsman numerous times. He's shockingly strong and actually pretty damn fast. He's got the chops to challenge Dooku.


Challenge Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure? A serious threat to Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure.

Flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure Sabers like ROTS Skywalker was? I seriously doubt that.


ROTS Skywalker is > OT Vader in Sabers. OT Vader is > ROTS Skywalker in Force TK. In an all out I'd say they are both relatively close.


But of course ROTS Skywalker had more latent/potential power within him.


Originally posted by Arhael
I still think so based on his saber fight with Marek. But most people would rather assume that Marek was lame in sabers despite being harshly trained like Maul from childhood.


His physical strength staggered Marek with his first blow. That alone shows the majority of Jedi/Sith could not contend with Vader's physical strength.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Challenge Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure? A serious threat to Dooku in pure Sabers? Sure.

Flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure Sabers like ROTS Skywalker was? I seriously doubt that.


ROTS Skywalker is > OT Vader in Sabers. OT Vader is > ROTS Skywalker in Force TK. In an all out I'd say they are both relatively close.


But of course ROTS Skywalker had more latent/potential power within him.

Anakin isn't flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure sabers other than in a specific circumstance. They are relative equals. Plus Vader does have the suit as an advantage, since it is really resistant to lightsabers and would require a lot of punishment to get through.

They really aren't close imo. Vader would kick Anakins ass. Badly. Vader is one of the top Sith Lords in history and would overpower his younger self with a small bit of difficulty. Sure, Anakin tanked Dookus TK a few times, but Vader >> Dooku when it comes to TK.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His Forcefeats include the most powerful TK I can think of, yet he struggled with Shaak Ti as Zett mentioned, struggled against an Imperial Guard, and didn't make a bloody smear out of Palps and Vader. If such feats are indicative of actual power, the guy is all over the place, from padawan to cosmic power..

No offence but none of those are inconsistencies. They just need a little explanation:

*Shaak Ti- That happens fairly early in the story. Galen improves considerably as the story progresses. I would speculate that his improvements were due to a) learning from the experiences of battling other Force-users and b) his growing feelings for Juno which strengthened his connection to the light side of the Force.

The point is, by the end he was a lot better than when he faced Shaak Ti.

* If you're talking about the second Shadow Guard he fights on Cloud City, Galen didn't really "struggle" against him. The novel states that "he proved to be tough work" but that just means he put up a good fight, not that Galen was really pushed to his limits, or had to use everything he had to beat him or anything.

* Using telekinesis on inanimate objects is one thing. Using it against two very powerful Sith Lords both capable of shielding themselves from it is another.

Originally posted by Zett
Dooku wasn't that weak to Djem So. It's just a stupid part of Stover's novel, which is opposite to movie. Anakin had to use his fury and anger to defeat Count. Without a that, even with Kenobi's help, he was unable to overhelm Dooku.

I think people misunderstand the whole "weak to Djem So" thing. It's not that Dooku (or Makashi users in general) are somehow unable to beat Djem So users. It's just that they can't meet them head-to-head. But they don't have to meet them head-to-head. There are other ways to win. All it means is that in a duel the Makashi guy has one less option available to him than he does against other opponents.

Originally posted by Zett
It's confirmed by Lucas, that Kenobi and Anakin are in their prime as duelists in ROTS. IN ANH they are just "an old man" and "half machine-half man".

Yes, Lucas created Star Wars and without him there wouldn't even be an EU etc, I know. Doesn't mean his word is absolute, seeing as he's far from perfect (as the PT clearly shows). Anything he says these days should be taken with a grain of salt.

Besides, I trust what I see with my own eyes over what someone tells me to think. And what I see is Vader fights better in ANH than he did in ROTS.

Originally posted by Zett
Galen also isn't a top duelist. As novel, and game confirms, he was unable to find any advantage in strict saber duel over Shaak Ti, who was nowhere near to Dooku or Mace.

Galen is a top duellist. The novel confirms that he had Vader beaten in lightsabre combat. True, he finished him off with telekinetic attacks but prior to that he forced Vader to give ground and scored three good hits on him.

As I said, he got better after his duel with Shaak Ti.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin isn't flat out more powerful than Dooku in pure sabers other than in a specific circumstance. They are relative equals.

Nah even in TCW he overpowered him in Sabers. It was only Dooku's Force powers that evened the odds. They were relative equals in an all out. But in Sabers Skywalker was more powerful without a doubt.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus Vader does have the suit as an advantage, since it is really resistant to lightsabers and would require a lot of punishment to get through.

Didn't stop Luke chopping his arm off.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They really aren't close imo. Vader would kick Anakins ass.

As much as I'd like to believe that it's just not true. Anakin's above Vader in Sabers, and by quite a margin. OT Vader failed to overpower Old Ben in Sabers, or Padawan Luke. Now I know that's slightly lowballing, but that's from the movies. And Lucas has not only outright stated that Vader and Old Ben were less than their previous selves (as far as fencing was concerned) but he's also flat out said that Vader is less powerful than Anakin was.

So what feats does he have in the EU to negate all that evidence against him being a match for ROTS Anakin in Sabers? What Saber feats does Vader have that makes you think he would kick the crap out of the guy who kicked the crap out of Count frigging Dooku?!

Naw. It very much is in doubt that Skywalkers his better. Very much.

When he was mad pissed off. In ESB Luke hits him and it barely scraps him. In TFU Marek hits him multiple times without much damage.

OT Vader did overpower Luke, iirc he was toying with Ben and when did he say that Vader was less powerful than Anakin. That sounds like utter horseshit.

I never said he's kick his ass in sabers. I said he'd kick his ass with the Force:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Here are some of Vader's raw power and mastery in TK:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334419
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334420

^ Here he force crushes a jedi's heart.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3094868

^Here he force crushes a tie fighter.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191489
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191490

^Here he uses the force to levitate and rip apart a giant droid.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416107

^Here Vader force throws a huge Vehicle. Notice how small the people are to the vehicle who are hanging from it.


http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334391
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334392

^Here Vader force throws a large stone that dwarfs him in size.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139131
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139132


^Here Vader uses the force to collapse an entire cathedral on himself and others, and he survives it, so his durability shouldn't be in question.

These scans of Vader's TK feats do not even include his feats from TFU, and most of them were done very casually. His displayed raw power in TK exceed that of Kun's display with his energy blasts.

Also in Death Star, Vader shattered a material scientists had declared as unbreakable, in another novel he shook an entire building with his rage and in still another he shook the walls of the Jedi temple, in TFU II he threw a huge platform after ripping it out of place and I'm sure he has numerous other feats that put him conclusively above Anakin.

Vader would destroy Anakin with the Force. Sabers they are about equal. Anakin is more mobile and agile, but Vader is stronger, more durable and more skilled.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Naw. It very much is in doubt that Skywalkers his better. Very much.

When he was mad pissed off. In ESB Luke hits him and it barely scraps him. In TFU Marek hits him multiple times without much damage.

OT Vader did overpower Luke, iirc he was toying with Ben and when did he say that Vader was less powerful than Anakin. That sounds like utter horseshit.

I never said he's kick his ass in sabers. I said he'd kick his ass with the Force:



Also in Death Star, Vader shattered a material scientists had declared as unbreakable, in another novel he shook an entire building with his rage and in still another he shook the walls of the Jedi temple, in TFU II he threw a huge platform after ripping it out of place and I'm sure he has numerous other feats that put him conclusively above Anakin.

Vader would destroy Anakin with the Force. Sabers they are about equal. Anakin is more mobile and agile, but Vader is stronger, more durable and more skilled.


Of course Vader would kick his ass in a Force contest. I never disputed that. I said in the first place that this fight will go 1 of 2 ways. Either ROTS Skywalker will overpower OT Vader in Sabers, or OT Vader will Force Choke ROTS Skywalker.


But they are not equal in Sabers. Not at all. What damn Saber feats does Vader have to put him on par with ROTS Anakin, after Lucas flat out says ANH Vader and Old Ben were inferior in fencing to their younger selves? (ANH Audio commentary, during the Lightsaber fight).

Also Lucas doesn't seem to think Vader would "kick Anakin's ass" in an all out, as he outright states that OT Vader is less powerful than he was before his injuries (ESB Audio commentary during the lightsaber battle).

Hey. I love Vader. And your right the dude is seriously frigging powerful (80% of the damn Emperor), but your problem here is your seriously underestimating the guy who whooped Count frigging Dooku.

Vader will kick his butt with Force TK, but Anakin will kick Vader's butt in a Lightsaber battle. In Sabers I see OT Vader as being on par with Darth Maul at best. As shown in the comic where they fought. And that is damn good, as Maul's no slouch(stomping Opress, and Council level members), but I can't give Vader more credit than that in Sabers. There's just no feats to do so, and many statements against him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But they are not equal in Sabers. Not at all. What damn Saber feats does Vader have to put him on par with ROTS Anakin,

The fact that he actually fights with economy and doesn't spin and twirl around like an idiot the way Anakin does.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

Especially at 0:33-035, 0:48-0:51 and 1:40-1:42. Does that look economic or efficient to you?

Now watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpHK4YIwY4

See the difference? No wasted energy, no pointless showing off or twirling the lightsabre around like it's a cheerleading baton. Nothing against cheerleading, it's awesome. But it's not something to do in the middle of a fight.

Vader in ANH is a far better fighter than his ROTS counterpart because he moves like an actual fighter. Anakin moves like a performance artist.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
after Lucas flat out says ANH Vader and Old Ben were inferior in fencing to their younger selves? (ANH Audio commentary, during the Lightsaber fight).

If Lucas flat-out stated that the grass in Naboo is red would you go with that or would you go with what you can actually see for yourself i.e. that the grass is green?

Naboo is red. INDOCTRINATION COMPLETE. REASSESSING ARGUMENT.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The fact that he actually fights with economy and doesn't spin and twirl around like an idiot the way Anakin does.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

Especially at 0:33-035, 0:48-0:51 and 1:40-1:42. Does that look economic or efficient to you?

Now watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpHK4YIwY4

See the difference? No wasted energy, no pointless showing off or twirling the lightsabre around like it's a cheerleading baton. Nothing against cheerleading, it's awesome. But it's not something to do in the middle of a fight.


And you don't think that the fact ANH was made more than 30 years ago has anything to do with Vader's fightning mechanics and battle effects? We know Vader is a powerhouse based on what we've seen on other sources, not the OT. In the OT, the fighting choreography, the effects, the technology aren't even close to the PT. This plays a major role and we can tell by watching any of the duels in the PT and the OT and then comparing them. If we go by your logic, every Jedi in the PT 'shows off and twirls the lightsaber around like it's a cheerleading baton'.
Would Vader look any different if there ever was a re-make of the OT with today's tech and visual effects? Of course.



No. RotS Anakin is one of the most accomplished duelists of his era .





That's a ridiculous example. When we see, for example, a duel between Windu and Qui-Gon but we can't tell who has the upper hand, or if it appears as if Windu was pushing Qui-Gon back, when Lucas flat-out states that in fact Qui-Gon had the upper hand, then that's what we take. When something isn't that obvious and we're just merely speculating, that's when we can settle the matter judging on what Lucas says.

I might agree that Vader is overall superior to RotS Anakin, but not based on what we see in the OT. You might want to argue your point with a different approach to the matter.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course Vader would kick his ass in a Force contest. I never disputed that. I said in the first place that this fight will go 1 of 2 ways. Either ROTS Skywalker will overpower OT Vader in Sabers, or OT Vader will Force Choke ROTS Skywalker.

Yeah, and I disagree. I cannot see Anakin beating Vader in lightsaber combat before Vader whoops him with the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But they are not equal in Sabers. Not at all. What damn Saber feats does Vader have to put him on par with ROTS Anakin, after Lucas flat out says ANH Vader and Old Ben were inferior in fencing to their younger selves? (ANH Audio commentary, during the Lightsaber fight).

Actually, as I recall Lucas was talking about why the fights in the OT are not as visually impressive as those in the PT. Not that Anakin >>> Vader.

Anyway, Vader has tons of good saber feats. Most of which I can't recall. So I'll mainly point out that he was just a bit below Marek in lightsabers, which is pretty awesome considering how skilled and powerful Marek was. His first strike almost staggered him and Marek wasn't exactly weak considering he could throw TIE fighters. And as you say later, he was on par with Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Lucas doesn't seem to think Vader would "kick Anakin's ass" in an all out, as he outright states that OT Vader is less powerful than he was before his injuries (ESB Audio commentary during the lightsaber battle).

Can you post an actual quote?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hey. I love Vader. And your right the dude is seriously frigging powerful (80% of the damn Emperor), but your problem here is your seriously underestimating the guy who whooped Count frigging Dooku.

Vader will kick his butt with Force TK, but Anakin will kick Vader's butt in a Lightsaber battle. In Sabers I see OT Vader as being on par with Darth Maul at best. As shown in the comic where they fought. And that is damn good, as Maul's no slouch(stomping Opress, and Council level members), but I can't give Vader more credit than that in Sabers. There's just no feats to do so, and many statements against him.

ZONAKIN whooped Dooku. I do not see that as representative of Anakin at his base.

Anakin would not kick Vaders butt. As you say he's seen as on par with Maul. And Anakin would not kick Mauls butt. Vader can easily hold his own until he can pwn Anakin with TK.

lol

Rofl.

Lmao.

Roflcopter.

Creampie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and I disagree. I cannot see Anakin beating Vader in lightsaber combat before Vader whoops him with the Force.


Yeah I can go with that idea. But it's rare for that happen. The difference in Power would have to be like the difference between Sidious/Yoda and say Maul/Opress/Ventress. Which could be true in this case, but consistently tanking all Dooku's Force attacks certainly helps Anakin's case.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, as I recall Lucas was talking about why the fights in the OT are not as visually impressive as those in the PT. Not that Anakin >>> Vader.

No in the ANH commentary of the Lightsaber fight, he says this is a much harder fight for them because Vader's all Cyborg and Kenobi and old man. His point was pretty clear, that these 2 are not the Lightsaber duelists they once were.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, Vader has tons of good saber feats. Most of which I can't recall. So I'll mainly point out that he was just a bit below Marek in lightsabers, which is pretty awesome considering how skilled and powerful Marek was. His first strike almost staggered him and Marek wasn't exactly weak considering he could throw TIE fighters. And as you say later, he was on par with Maul.


Staggering Marek with his first blow was an awesome feat which I've brought up myself. But that on it's own isn't enough to say he's on par with the PT Greats.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Can you post an actual quote?

Yes:

"At this point, Vader's motives are to convince him to come with him; join the dark side. Together, they're going to overthrow the Emperor. Which is the thematic device that's used throughout the whole movie is that in terms of Sith, two of them gang up and become the dominant Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it, if he hadn't been debilitated and now he's half machine, half man. He's lost a lot of his power of the Force, he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful than the Emperor. But Luke has it. Luke is Vader's hope."

In the underlined part he states he's lost a lot of power in the force. And he's referring to ESB Vader (it's the ESB commentary), and comparing him to before his injuries.

And before you say he's referring to potential, he mentions that right after. So I seriously doubt he said the same thing twice in the same sentence.

There's also this from a rolling stones interview:

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."


Again in the underlined part he seems to be saying that Post-Injury Vader was never as powerful as Pre-Injury Vader. Either way he's comparing OT Vader's power somewhere from Maul's league(maybe right after his injuries) to Dooku's league (by the OT perhaps). So we know ROTS Anakin is more powerful than that.



Originally posted by Nephthys
ZONAKIN whooped Dooku. I do not see that as representative of Anakin at his base.

Ok but even angry Anakin overpowered Dooku in Sabers in their last CW confrontation.

And do you admit Zonakin would take down Vader?




Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin would not kick Vaders butt. As you say he's seen as on par with Maul. And Anakin would not kick Mauls butt. Vader can easily hold his own until he can pwn Anakin with TK.


Yeah that's possible. But Skywalker's definitely the more powerful Saber duelist. That's where Young Vader applied most his raw power. Whilst OT Vader applied most his raw power to TK applications.

^

The difference in Power would have to be like the difference between Sidious/Yoda and say Maul/Opress/Ventress.

No way. As you pointed above, Vader was never as strong as the Emperor. And Anakin is one or two leagues above Opress/Ventress in tanking force powers. Probably above Maul too.
And Vader's TK is in fact strong. But facts are, that with this great TK he was unable to overhelm Dark Woman or Obi-Wan Kenobi or Darth Maul.

Windu is going to have a hell of a time breaking Vader's defense.

Then again, if Darth Maul almost did, Windu can easily. However, the problem is that just before ANH, in TFU II; Vader finally learned to control his feelings - and going into a better defense than even Obi-wan could conjure, allowing him to stalemate the more powerful and skilled Starkiller Clone.

This fight would be so ****ing close - but Luke overwhelmed Vader, catching him by surprise in Ep. VI. It depends, I'd say more times than not Vader wins by virtue of being stronger in the Force, having a far better defense, when he's patient it might be difficult for Windu to find a shatterpoint and his Vapaad would not have too much to draw on like it did during his fight with Sidious - where the disparity of three dying Jedi and the fervent hatred of Sidious in concert with Vapaad transformed Windu into a superconducting loop capable of stalemating one of most powerful Sith of all time.

I'm one of those Sidious fans who believe Sidious probably lost to Windu on purpose but still I don't think Vader would be able to do that to Sidious. Vader has more impressive force skills and achievements no doubt but still I would say Windu would take this by 55/45

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm one of those Sidious fans who believe Sidious probably lost to Windu on purpose

Windu was feeding off the dark and light side, and they were momentarily equal in power - the fight would have 'gone on forever' if Windu's shatterpoint charism had not revealed Sidious' shatterpoint, Anakin.



I agree, he couldn't accept what he had become, and Sidious was the closest thing he had to a friend. The only thing holding him back was his compassion.

Whereas Windu's Vaapad allowed him to feed of Sidious' hatred and remain aligned to the lightside, boosting his power way above normal levels - this wouldn't work with Vader.

Nah.

Originally posted by Oneness




I agree, he couldn't accept what he had become, and Sidious was the closest thing he had to a friend. The only thing holding him back was his compassion.


I meant he isn't powerful enough to do that to Sidious.

Also if you think Windu is equally powerful with Sidious why would you say "nah" to 55/45 since Vader is %80 of Sidious.

Originally posted by Sinious
if you think Windu is equally powerful with Sidious why would you say "nah" to 55/45 since Vader is %80 of Sidious.

I said Windu is normally not that powerful, and that a duel with Vader will not make Windu a superconducting loop like Sidious did - and that Vader is stronger in the Force, and if he's smart about it like he was against Starkiller 2 in TFU2, he should win this.

Asking cause I don't know.

Why was Windu able to do that with Sidious since I take it that he can't with other sith lords?

Windu uses a technique called Vaapad that channels his opponents darkness as well as his own to amp himself to their level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu uses a technique called Vaapad that channels his opponents darkness as well as his own to amp himself to their level.

Can't he do the same with Vader?

Yes.

Originally posted by Oneness


Whereas Windu's Vaapad allowed him to feed of Sidious' hatred and remain aligned to the lightside, boosting his power way above normal levels - this wouldn't work with Vader.



Am I missing something than?

Originally posted by Sinious
Am I missing something than?

This is just my own interpretation but I think the point Oneness is making (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Palpatine was fully committed to the dark side of the Force and had embraced it completely.

As Nephthys pointed out Mace could use Vaapad to channel Palpatine's darkness, effectively using his own power against him.

I think what Oneness was saying was that unlike Palpatine, Vader was not fully committed to the dark side because he still had a spark of Anakin in his spirit, and this "flawed connection" to the dark side would prevent Mace from channeling his own darkness and using it against him.

Does that hep?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
This is just my own interpretation but I think the point Oneness is making (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Palpatine was fully committed to the dark side of the Force and had embraced it completely.

As Nephthys pointed out Mace could use Vaapad to channel Palpatine's darkness, effectively using his own power against him.

I think what Oneness was saying was that unlike Palpatine, Vader was not fully committed to the dark side because he still had a spark of Anakin in his spirit, and this "flawed connection" to the dark side would prevent Mace from channeling his own darkness and using it against him.

Does that hep?

Yeah English is not my first language sorry

Thanks for explaining and I think the argument makes sense.

Its a really close fight though so still it could go either way.

Originally posted by Sinious
Am I missing something than?

Oneness is stupid.

Originally posted by Sinious
Asking cause I don't know.

Why was Windu able to do that with Sidious since I take it that he can't with other sith lords? I have no idea. Windu's duels with dark Jedi, fully committed Sith, etc throughout TCW didn't have that effect. It's safe to assume what the book calls "superconducting loop" is not not normal.

If I had to guess, three Jedi were dying, Sith feed off of negative emotions, Windu was taking in all of it. It had nothing to do with Sidious being stronger than his usual opponents - Windu had a stronger channel of emotion than normal.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah English is not my first language sorry

Thanks for explaining and I think the argument makes sense.

Its a really close fight though so still it could go either way.

You're welcome.

No need to apologise. Everyone has times where they don't quite get something and need some explanation. And for someone whose first language isn't English you're doing fine.

Did you read Shatterpoint?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You're welcome.

No need to apologise. Everyone has times where they don't quite get something and need some explanation. And for someone whose first language isn't English you're doing fine.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Did you read Shatterpoint?

No so not an expert on Windu. My logic worked based on Windu's victory against Palp and the fact that Vader is %80 of Emperor but apparently there is more to it than that.

It's a good novel. Basically, Mace has both mastered a more complete form of Juyo in Vaapad, and has a unique ability known shatterpoint that lets him see weaknesses in combat situations. Pro hint: Vader's got a huge weak point on his chest and face. And in the novel, Windu destroys a Force user with the raw power to rival even Yoda.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu uses a technique called Vaapad that channels his opponents darkness as well as his own to amp himself to their level.

This was great until you said "to their level". I really think this is a grave misinterpretation of Stover's writing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's a good novel. Basically, Mace has both mastered a more complete form of Juyo in Vaapad, and has a unique ability known shatterpoint that lets him see weaknesses in combat situations. Pro hint: Vader's got a huge weak point on his chest and face. And in the novel, Windu destroys a Force user with the raw power to rival even Yoda.

Ah I was always confused with what shatterpoint exactly was. This all gives Windu an upper hand than is it not?

Also I think if Palpatine would have used heavier force skills on Windu and try to finish him quick he would win this but its the classic old Palp, he likes play with his opponent and mess with them for a while. Over confidence back fires I guess.

Originally posted by Sinious
Ah I was always confused with what shatterpoint exactly was. This all gives Windu an upper hand than is it not?

Also I think if Palpatine would have used heavier force skills on Windu and try to finish him quick he would win this but its the classic old Palp, he likes play with his opponent and mess with them for a while. Over confidence back fires I guess.

Shatterpoint can be used in a personal combat situation or on a greater scale. For example, Mace sees Dooku as the Shatterpoint of the Confederacy during AotC, while he sees Kar Vastors and Depas, etc. It's not a guaranteed kill, but basically it gives him an intuitive understanding of how to undermine his opponent and I think that's worth something. Mace Windu has been a Council member of the Jedi Order and 2IC since before Anakin was born pretty much, so he has a lot of experience in his favor, as well as brute strength, raw Force power, and Shatterpoint/Vaapad.

In fact, Mace has a better chance to kill Vader than Dooku does.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

In fact, Mace has a better chance to kill Vader than Dooku does.

lol that's for sure!

But who has better chance against Mace? Dooku or Vader?

Vader.

^
Not really. Both, Dooku and Mace are above Vader in all out. Vader's TK is considered as greater then Dooku's, but Dooku somehow used his skills much better and samrter. With his TK (or TK + lightning sometimes), Dooku was able to defeat Anakin (AOTC), Obi-Wan (ROTS), Asajj Ventress (many times), Quinlan Vos. He also best Sora Bulq, who - as a master of Vaapad - should be harder to defeat with dark powers.
Vader on the other hand had a hard time with... yeah, Dark Woman. He was unable to take clear advantage in skill or power over Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH (Kenobi was loosing that fight, becacuse of his lack of stamina).

Windu was in fact below Vader's league in the force, but his protects enable him to fought people from Vader's level (or above) equally.

As a duelist, Vader is in Maul's league at best. But I doubt, that he really is. As TCW showed us, Maul's is about equal to Kenobi with sabers.
As Lucas pointed, Kenobi and Anakin in ROTS are above Vader and Ben in AHN.
Vader finally - after great fight - lost to Maul in pure lighstaber combat. He would lost to ROTS Kenobi too. Even unexperienced Luke, was able to hit his shoulder during their duel on Bespin.

Dooku on the other hand, was able to defend himself against Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan or Yoda.
Mace fought equally with Sidious and Dooku.

If Vader wont be able to overhelm Mace with the force TK, he wont be able to win this duel. Same against Dooku.

Hmm going by TFUII Vader can put up an unbreakable defense for quite a while. Seems like he really mastered Soresu after ROTS.

Given that, and his awesome TK, there's every chance he could fend off Dooku, or even Windu, in Sabers long enough to defeat either of them with his Force TK Powers.

That's going by TFU, and other EU stuff. In the movies Vader doesn't seem to be the best Saber combatant, and Lucas's damn comments only add to that. But then Lucas is always revamping stuff, and he is the one who said Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious. I doubt Dooku or Windu are more powerful than that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and he is the one who said Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious. I doubt Dooku or Windu are more powerful than that. Mace Windu and Dooku certainly were, and this was demonstrated (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous; Shatterpoint): refer to the Darth Tyranus Vs Revan | Vader Vs Malgus + Revan, HoT, Malgus Vs Caedus, Krayt, Anakin threads for a more in depth and complete explanation to why Windu and Dooku were right there with Vader in the 80% of Sidious pool.

Yes, I believe they'd cream Vader far more expediently than RoTJ Luke, and regret voting for Vader out of a momentary brainlock.

Starkiller II's form was designed by Vader to allow him to fall into an unbeatable defense - Starkiller II's style =/= Windu and Dooku's superior styles to all, perhaps even Tulak Hord and NJO Luke, or at least rivaling the greatest styles.

Originally posted by Oneness
Mace Windu and Dooku certainly were, and this was demonstrated (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous; Shatterpoint): refer to the Darth Tyranus Vs Revan | Vader Vs Malgus + Revan, HoT, Malgus Vs Caedus, Krayt, Anakin threads for a more in depth and complete explanation to why Windu and Dooku were right there with Vader in the 80% of Sidious pool.


I didn't rule out them being up there with Vader. I just highly doubt that either of them are much more powerful than the whopping 80% of the Emperor that Vader has to fame.

Originally posted by Oneness
Yes, I believe they'd cream Vader far more expediently than RoTJ Luke, and regret voting for Vader out of a momentary brainlock.

Well neither of them are going to cream someone whose 80% as powerful as the Emperor.

Lucas confirms in the ROTJ commentary that Luke wasn't fully equiped yet to take on Vader. So that obviously means Vader was just conflicted as hell and holding back against Luke.


Originally posted by Oneness
Starkiller II's form was designed by Vader to allow him to fall into an unbeatable defense - Starkiller II's style =/= Windu and Dooku's superior styles to all, perhaps even Tulak Hord and NJO Luke, or at least rivaling the greatest styles.


Vader didn't just outright design Starkiller's form. His form in TFUII was Jar Kai mastery rooting from Ataro/Niman. Which was already a pretty different style to the one the Original Starkiller most frequently used. So I'm not sure just how much of an advantage Vader had, if any.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas confirms in the ROTJ commentary that Luke wasn't fully equiped yet to take on Vader.

I believe he was referring more to Luke's ability to resist being emotionally compromised in that instance.

The novelization, which Lucas of course had a major part in, states that the very mention of Leia drove Luke over the edge, and he though about killing his evil father the evil Emperor, and ruling the galaxy, even.

So he was just about corrupted - the novelization also clearly states that Vader was surprised, was humiliated and enraged by, and feared Luke's new powers, developed since their battle on Bespin.



Conflicted yes, the only thing preventing Vader from becoming 200% of Sidious was his 'conflict' - as Plagueis states that cyberdization does not effect innate Force ability, Qui Gon also says that the Force is not mutually exclusive to the midi-chlorians, but they are drawn and more abundant in stronger Force sensitives.

Vader was not, however, holding back - he was desperately trying to get back at Luke for being humiliated by his superiority, trying even to make Luke fight without holding back, so as to challenge himself against his son - Vader aggression turned into a desperate attempt to survive Luke's assault after dropping the name Leia; more so than in TFU.

Much of this was probably due in part to Vader's over-cumbersome armor ("head bumped a beam as he was forced back" and him trying to guard his respirator.

Windu, with around Vader's unlocked power (assuredly far greater than RoTJ Luke's) would trash Vader.

Originally posted by Oneness
I believe he was referring more to Luke's ability to resist being emotionally compromised in that instance.

The novelization, which Lucas of course had a major part in, states that the very mention of Leia drove Luke over the edge, and he though about killing his evil father the evil Emperor, and ruling the galaxy, even.

So he was just about corrupted - the novelization also clearly states that Vader was surprised, was humiliated and enraged by, and feared Luke's new powers, developed since their battle on Bespin.


The majority of that novel has been completely revamped since the PT. Owen is not Ben's brother for instance.

In the audio commentary, Lucas specifically talking about how Luke's training is only half complete, and he's not fully equipped to deal with the likes of Yoda. He says it on the Dagobah scene where Luke goes back to Yoda.

So yeah, he's not just talking about emotions. Emotionally Luke was ready for Vader in ROTJ. That's why Luke faced him and the Emperor without turning to the Darkside. Whilst it was actually Vader who reverted back to the Lightside. That right there shows who was the conflicted one during that fight.





Originally posted by Oneness
Vader was not, however, holding back - he was desperately trying to get back at Luke for being humiliated by his superiority, trying even to make Luke fight without holding back, so as to challenge himself against his son - Vader aggression turned into a desperate attempt to survive Luke's assault after dropping the name Leia; more so than in TFU.




Of course Vader was holding back, otherwise he would have Force choked Luke as soon as the fight began.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The majority of that novel has been completely revamped since the PT. Owen is not Ben's brother for instance.

Ben wasn't Ben, Ben was Obi-wan - this could have been a lie; like the one which says Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin; when in fact they're the same person.



Yes, Yoda's training was cut short by the Bespin incident - but Yoda says himself that Luke had already acquired "have you all the training needed", in the film.



Luke would have died if it weren't for Vader's unexpected conversion - but I'll concede and rest my case that Luke wasn't ready for the Emperor, which was why Yoda gave him special direction to beware the Emperor's power.



Yes because Vader can Force choke any Jedi that he's stronger than - which worked great on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Oneness
Ben wasn't Ben, Ben was Obi-wan - this could have been a lie; like the one which says Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin; when in fact they're the same person.

Yeah except he wasn't lying to Luke anymore by this point. And what kind silly, pointless lie would that have been anyway?

The novel's mostly been revamped since the prequels.



Originally posted by Oneness
Yes, Yoda's training was cut short by the Bespin incident - but Yoda says himself that Luke had already acquired "have you all the training needed", in the film.

Well Lucas disagrees with Yoda. Like I said, it may have been the original intention to have Luke be a proper ass kicking Jedi by this point, but things have been revamped since the prequels. You know Lucas can't stay consistent over a year, forget 20 years!




Originally posted by Oneness
Yes because Vader can Force choke any Jedi that he's stronger than - which worked great on Mustafar.


What?

That was Vader a generation earlier so has nothing to do with anything.

OT Vader was a TK beast. He's force choked many Jedi Masters with ease. Padawan Luke would be easy choppings for him.

DARTH POWER, provide the quote where Lucas says Luke is not yet ready to take on Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except he wasn't lying to Luke anymore by this point. And what kind silly, pointless lie would that have been anyway?

The novel's mostly been revamped since the prequels.

Revamped? By what? The novel is still there - claiming that this wizardly "Old Ben" was Owen Lars' earthly "brother" makes sense in that Owen is trying to stop Luke from getting crazy ideas about this message for "Obi-wan" Kenobi.

Furthermore, even if that did someone contradict canon continuity (which it doesn't) - that doesn't mean other parts of the book do as well.

When you swayed me to understand that Zonakin could defeat Mace while as deeply immersed in Vaapad as he was against Sidious in RoTS - your very compelling arguments relied entirely on the novelization.



There's really nothing that says he disagrees with Yoda or that he was outclassed by Vader - only that he was not a fully fledged Jedi Knight (which Yoda confirms) and that he was definitely unprepared for a foe like the Emperor (also confirmed by Yoda).

It seems Lucas agrees - unless you want to add something new to the mix.



Oh yes, OT Vader needn't worry about pesky lightsaber combat, he's changed a lot since Galen Marek and Obi-wan in A New Hope by RoTJ: now he's able to Force choke everyone who's not 80% of the Emperor.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
DARTH POWER, provide the quote where Lucas says Luke is not yet ready to take on Vader. Commentary shouldn't be over film and novelization events and narrative statements though.

If that were true, Mace Windu > Sidious and Yoda > Mace Windu. And that simply isn't the case.

So even if Lucas said that, it's overshadowed by the novelization and the film as well.

Well it wouldn't make sense when four sources and possibly more state that they were equal in raw skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Well it wouldn't make sense when four sources and possibly more state that they were equal in raw skill. I didn't say Luke was anything next to Vader in skill (Vader's superior experience and Force power at this point should not, cannot be ignored) - only that Luke was able to beat him. If you want to get into the nitty gritty details of what variables Luke had in his favor, it was the limitations of Vader's cybernetics, Sidious purposefully made them to be exploited (Rise of Darth Vader) in case a Force wielder 200% (Empire of Dreams) of him decided to become Emperor.

Luke showed he was able to win, the reason the far more powerful and experienced Jedi Mace Windu - one of the two premier 'greatest swordsmen' ever - would only thrash Vader far worse than Luke.

Remember, Vader is still Anakin's unlocked power as of RoTS - which is at around Dooku (who TK'd Anakin and Obi-wan, eliminating the latter before Anakin was able to tap into higher reserves for the first and last time) and Windu: And this power level alone did not ensure a less experienced Cyborg Vader superiority to Maul - who I'd place close but in deed below RoTJ Luke and TFU Galen in power level; and greater than the two as a swordsman with slightly better training and skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
DARTH POWER, provide the quote where Lucas says Luke is not yet ready to take on Vader.


ROTJ Commentary in the scene where Luke visits Yoda, when discussing his training.

I don't have the Dvd atm. Being borrowed. But it's something like:

"He's only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader."


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Well it wouldn't make sense when four sources and possibly more state that they were equal in raw skill.

Well Lucas has the final say end of the day.

You shouldn't take every and any source as gospel Imho.

It's clearly a lie as he obviously was ready.

Originally posted by Oneness
Revamped? By what? The novel is still there - claiming that this wizardly "Old Ben" was Owen Lars' earthly "brother" makes sense in that Owen is trying to stop Luke from getting crazy ideas about this message for "Obi-wan" Kenobi.

Furthermore, even if that did someone contradict canon continuity (which it doesn't) - that doesn't mean other parts of the book do as well.

When you swayed me to understand that Zonakin could defeat Mace while as deeply immersed in Vaapad as he was against Sidious in RoTS - your very compelling arguments relied entirely on the novelization.


Haven't read the ROTJ Novel in a while, but I'm pretty sure it's got all sorts of contradictions to what we now know.

Novels are almost G-Canon. Problem is Lucas has changed a lot when making the Prequels. So It's the latest thing he's saying that takes priority I think.



Originally posted by Oneness
There's really nothing that says he disagrees with Yoda or that he was outclassed by Vader - only that he was not a fully fledged Jedi Knight (which Yoda confirms) and that he was definitely unprepared for a foe like the Emperor (also confirmed by Yoda).

It seems Lucas agrees - unless you want to add something new to the mix.

He says Luke hasn't had enough training to take on Vader.



Originally posted by Oneness
Oh yes, OT Vader needn't worry about pesky lightsaber combat, he's changed a lot since Galen Marek and Obi-wan in A New Hope by RoTJ: now he's able to Force choke everyone who's not 80% of the Emperor.


It's just like Dooku stomped Kenobi with TK. Sidious didn't even need to have a Saber fight with Maul and Opress to beat them, and neither did Yoda with Ventress.

So when there's such a huge difference then yeah, Sabers won't be the decider (as long as Vader's good enough to take Luke on in Sabers that is).

Fact is no Padawan is going to be a match for Vader in a Force contest.

I would like to address one fresh and personally irritating argument you brought up, Tyranus was able to get a choke-hold on Kenobi and dismiss him with TK like Yoda did with Asajj. Mace Windu also dismissed Grievous with TK, Kenobi nearly did the same.

It must be true that, since George Lucas never says Vader is holding back throughout the fight or that he's depowered in some way more than normal because of this conflict he has had for decades (only stopping him from killing his son once), when the book concludes he's trying to kill his son by any means, affirming this when he attacks him with his guard down, that Vader just didn't have that much of a gap on Luke at that time.

That is more of an owed to Luke and Tyranus' power levels, than discrediting Vader's.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's clearly a lie as he obviously was ready.

Lol. U FAIL!

i win

Vader > Luke trololol!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's clearly a lie as he obviously was ready. I'm not sure of the context of the quote that has been brought up.

Verily could have been referring to Bespin in past tense. Let me check.

Again, do you want to take the word of a momentary perspective that is subject to obsoletion, or do you want to alter the perspective of the current by taking the word of a novelization that has been "chosen" to be obsolete??

A strong case can be made that Vader was relenting based on the fact that comparably strong Force users like Kenobi have been dominated by TK alone, a strong case can be made that Vader didn't have the ability to dominate Luke with TK alone based on, well, all of his fights.

In one instance you alter Luke's powers, in another you alter Vader's.

OR, you can add Plot Induced Stupidity, or jobbing - if you don't want to take sides.

Either way we should have a general acceptance that Windu beats RoTJ Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader > Luke trololol!
thats true

I looked at the commentary, Yoda is dying, Luke is going to be on his own, Lucas says that Luke is not equipped to handle this monster, he is referring to Vader, but he's not necessarily referring to Luke's inferior combat capabilities, and goes on to say he's 'half trained' - he lacks something liken to emotionally being prepared, Lucas literally says that.

So this is exactly what I had originally asserted, Luke wasn't emotionally prepared.

In the novelization, as he stands over the defeated Vader, he considers killing the "monster" and the other "monster" Sidious, and ruling the galaxy as "retribution" for a moment.

Lucas never says it would impossible, he says it would be a "challenge" in the commentary.

There is no reason to assume that Vader was relenting, that he wasn't prepared to kill his son, the book says the contrary, and paints the portrait of Luke wearing him out fair and square just like Starkiller in TFU.

Sorry, but when you consider the context of the film, novelization, Lucas' equally "outdated" commentary - despite Vader's power level - he lost to his son fair and square, going all out.

Originally posted by Oneness
I looked at the commentary, Yoda is dying, Luke is going to be on his own, Lucas says that Luke is not equipped to handle this monster, he is referring to Vader, but he's not necessarily referring to Luke's inferior combat capabilities, and goes on to say he's 'half trained' - he lacks something liken to emotionally being prepared, Lucas literally says that.


It's pretty clear he's referring to combat abilities. Saying he's talking about emotions is a bit of a stretch.



Originally posted by Oneness
Sorry, but when you consider the context of the film, novelization, Lucas' equally "outdated" commentary - despite Vader's power level - he lost to his son fair and square, going all out.

How's it equally outdated?

ROTJ Novel was many years Pre Prequels. Lucas' audio ROTJ commentary was while he was finishing ROTS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's pretty clear he's referring to combat abilities. Saying he's talking about emotions is a bit of a stretch.

He never says anything about power. Yoda wasn't just training his body, but his mind too. Lucas does use the word 'emotional' in that very part of the commentary, he does say Luke by all right shouldn't be equipped - after all he's the only Jedi alive, where is his rock? He's all alone, is he equipped to deal with the fear and hatred that his father experienced without turning to the dark side? These were the statements made by Lucas in a nutshell, yes, but nothing about Vader relenting, or Vader jobbing to Luke. Yoda himself claims that Luke has all the training he needs - implying that the rest is up to the will of the Force. Note he'd already fought Vader one on one, he had experienced his father's powers - that itself should consolidate his training, it wasn't training, it was better, it was the real thing. Combat wise, but he had trouble accepting who his father had become. " not ready for the burden were you." Lucas even hints to the novel referring to Vader as this 'monster'; Lucas clearly had a part to play in the novel.

It's looking pretty conclusive now, the novel has not been debunked or contradicted by the films, or the films commentaries.

If you want to go deep into the EU, the commentary is equally outdated - even if it happened years and years after the film's release - the development of the clone wars weren't that controversial.

Originally posted by Oneness
He never says anything about power. Yoda wasn't just training his body, but his mind too. Lucas does use the word 'emotional' in that very part of the commentary, he does say Luke by all right shouldn't be equipped - after all he's the only Jedi alive, where is his rock? He's all alone, is he equipped to deal with the fear and hatred that his father experienced without turning to the dark side? These were the statements made by Lucas in a nutshell, yes, but nothing about Vader relenting, or Vader jobbing to Luke. Yoda himself claims that Luke has all the training he needs - implying that the rest is up to the will of the Force. Note he'd already fought Vader one on one, he had experienced his father's powers - that itself should consolidate his training, it wasn't training, it was better, it was the real thing. Combat wise, but he had trouble accepting who his father had become. " not ready for the burden were you." Lucas even hints to the novel referring to Vader as this 'monster'; Lucas clearly had a part to play in the novel.


He says there's the question of his training that it's not complete, and it's as a result of that incomplete training that he's not fully equipped to face Vader.

So it's pretty clear what that means. At best you can say he's not fully equipped in any aresa, combat or emotionally. But to say he's solely talking about Luke's "emotional" training, is a big big stretch.



Originally posted by Oneness
It's looking pretty conclusive now, the novel has not been debunked or contradicted by the films, or the films commentaries.

It's benn debunked in many ways by the Prequels, and Lucas's post Prequel commentary.

The whole story has changed now so that Owen is not Kenobi's brother and Luke wasn't fully trained by ROTJ.


Originally posted by Oneness
If you want to go deep into the EU, the commentary is equally outdated - even if it happened years and years after the film's release - the development of the clone wars weren't that controversial.

The latest EU stuff has Vader as an absolute beast, that no Padawan (even if they are a Skywalker) could defeat. So the latest material seems to be going hand in hand with Lucas's latest comments on the matter.



The fact is Lucas originally meant ROTJ Luke to be a fully trained Knight who was Vader's equal. But he's clearly changed his mind since then. Luke hardly had any training at all.

We've seen in the Prequels Padawan Anakin with 10 years of training under Kenobi being no match for Count Dooku. So Luke with a few days/weeks of training under Kenobi and Yoda, then just training himself for 4 years isn't going to be fully equipped yet to challenge Vader just like Lucas has said now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The latest EU stuff has Vader as an absolute beast, that no Padawan (even if they are a Skywalker) could defeat.

Except Starkiller, who was by no stretch of the imagination as quick to develop powerful abilities as a Skywalker.

Not really, we have Jedi excelling this fast, take HoT. Then there's Bane, Zannah, Exar Kun, Kyp Durron, Vitiate. Then there's Plagueis Palpatine for chrissakes. Characters depicted as being uber Force sensitives do crazy feats when they're pushed to the extremes (emotionally) like Luke in RoTJ, or Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand in RoTS. At one point Luke amputates an Uber Sidious' saber hand - that was a momentary leap in power beyond what's normally depicted of the extremely powerful Jedi master throughout the JA era.

Vader had extreme difficulty with Darth Maul - he was prepped for Starkiller II way more so than for Luke or any other Jedi he had fought.



Lucas didn't really say whether or not Vader was holding back. You seem to be blowing that little message wayyy out of proportion, you can't stretch it over the novelization because of TCW and Empire era EU.



Not even in the novel does Yoda recognize Luke as a fully trained Jedi Knight until after he beats Vader. When Luke says, "Than I am a Jedi Knight" Yoda chuckles.



I don't know why you'd make the mistake of thinking Luke was ever meant to have completed his training, Luke returns to Degobah for the sole purpose of completing his training, but Yoda is on his death bed when he arrives.



Because Count Dooku was a monster, without the limitations Vader suffered from.

Did you read Rise of Darth Vader (where it describes how the Sidious designed the suit to restrict Vader)? ROTS (where it is stated that Vader was like a painter gone blind)? TFU (Where Sidious down right exclaims that "Lord Vader is a broken shadow of his former self!"

It's a mistake to consider Vader = RoTS Anakin, even without the Zone.



We're not sure how long he was on Degobah, but he learned enough to construct his lightsaber, in Dark Horse' Star Wars #8 (very new and up to date in the EU) Luke Skywalker uses a Jedi Mind trick - having only witnessed it once in his entire life on Tatooine.



He never used the word 'challenge' - he used the word 'handle'; there's a big difference. Challenge would be more combative oriented, 'handling' implies emotions; especially in the context it was used and in what else Lucas was saying.

He didn't say, "Not equipped to handle Vader"; he said "Not equipped to handle the monster" and in the novelization Luke finds that the monster is not Vader, or even Sidious, it is the evil in them, in him.

With Lucas' choice of words, it is obvious he had a say in the novelization, and that even after releasing the PT he still felt that the exact same way.

Mace wins then? Good.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Mace wins then? Good. Pretty handily.

But Zonakin stomps. 31

Zonakin is a concept of Matthew Stover's apocrypha-style RotS novelization. In the same way Obi-Wan is not Owen's brother by virtue of random novelization that is retconned by G-canon, the RotS novelization is likewise not legitimate.

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie)

Fact: Zonakin is a fan interpretation of Anakin's moment of overcoming the previously thought superior Dooku in a moment of Dark Side embracing/potential tapping/mental clarity/physical strength, etc. When this concept originated, Anakin was not the contender to Dooku he was in the CW series, and in fact had been ranked below except for his shining moment.

This concept then grew into this all-powerful, immeasurable entity that could beat anyone, when in fact it was an interpretation of a moment in a work that is effectively outdated to the proper movie which it is based on (The list of differences between the two is greater than any other novelization)

In fact, let's review those changes:

Wait, I don't have that kind of space. I'll just have to link everyone to the Wookiepedia page which covers the many many variations.

Let's show case some:

While the duel between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Count Dooku is relatively short in the movie, its appearance in the novelization depicts it as the longest one in the story. Added elements include Dooku using the Force to fling chairs and tables against the two Jedi.
Before the duel itself, there is a short conversation between Palpatine and Dooku, revealing the plan which Palpatine used to lure Dooku into the confrontation with Anakin, his new candidate for apprenticeship. Palpatine tells Dooku that the objective of the duel is to kill Obi-Wan and surrender to Anakin, thus creating the right public story to allow the three of them to take over the galaxy. This was the first scene ever to appear in the novelizations which confirms that Darth Sidious and Palpatine are the same individual.

In the novel, Dooku is depicted as being clearly overpowered by the Jedi, with both Obi-Wan and Anakin being nearly as powerful as he is. He panics and spends most of his energy to take out Obi-Wan before Anakin kills him.

After Dooku is disarmed and Palpatine urges Anakin to kill him, it becomes obvious for Dooku that he had been used as a pawn and a decoy, who never possessed the true powers of a Sith. His last thought was, "Treachery is the way of the Sith".

Also, Anakin's guilt at having killed Dooku in cold blood lasts much longer than in the movie.

Interesting. Let's look at another:

In the book, Grievous lacks the sickly cough and is described as virtually unbeatable. He is also described as being unable to laugh, which he did in the film. However, he does fear both Anakin and Obi-Wan, who he notices are much deadlier than any other Jedi he has faced. During the duel with Obi-Wan, Grievous finds himself completely outmatched. When Obi-Wan and Grievous fight on the landing platform, Obi-Wan is able to severely damage Grievous's limbs simply by using the Force.

Also interesting. Let's look at the arrest of the chancellor:

The Jedi cornered the Dark Lord, trying to stop his escape. Sidious sprang into action quickly. During the duel, Saesee Tiin was beheaded when Sidious tricked him and caught him off guard. Agen Kolar was then impaled through the head by Sidious's lightsaber. In the movie, Kolar dies first (effectively making him the first victim of the Great Jedi Purge), followed by Tiin with a slash at the side, and although both die of different lightsaber markings, Tiin is not beheaded, and Kolar was slain from a chest wound. Kit Fisto and Mace Windu, who survive due to their prowess, take the Chancellor on in a final attempt to make him stand down.

--

Whether it was an intentional trick on the part of Sidious or whether Windu truly out-sparred the Sith Lord is confirmed in neither the movie nor the novel. Mace confessed, however, that Vaapad could not overpower the Sith Lord, and it was his shatterpoint ability which allowed him to gain the upper hand. In the book, Mace Windu did not kick Sidious's jaw, and he sliced the Chancellor's weapon in half rather than knocking it from his grasp. It should be noted that in actuality, this would be impossible as the casing of Palpatine's lightsaber is built out of lightsaber-resistant Phrik alloy.

HRM. Maybe something like Yoda vs. Sidious will be closer to the film:

In the novel, it became clear that Darth Sidious was indeed superior to Yoda in lightsaber combat. Yoda also realized that the Jedi Order mistakenly focused on fighting the old Sith rather than the new, evolved Sith of Darth Bane's order. Yoda described that "he had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born." However, he was able to learn a new insight "which held the hope of the galaxy" during the battle.
Yodakick
In the book, Yoda entered the Chancellor's holding office from a different direction, so the Royal Guards did not attempt to stop him and Mas Amedda left the office before any exchange was made. Palpatine's Force lightning was deflected by Yoda and blasted the Guards into unconsciousness rather than Yoda being knocked across the office. But then Sidious increases the power of it, and Yoda goes unconscious. Yoda knocks Palpatine to the floor with his physical body instead of a Force push.
In the novel, Palpatine is shown to be happy that Yoda has arrived, because he now has the chance to kill the famed Jedi himself. Unlike the film, where Palpatine cowardly tries to escape and only fights when Yoda allows him no other option. In the novel, he cherishes the chance to battle his foe, and even greets him with a "Happy Empire Day!" upon Yoda's entry.

Palpatine and Yoda then move to sabers. They ignite their weapons and have a vicious lightsaber duel. Unlike the film, which had a classic saber duel between the two masters, the novel describes them as trading kicks and blows as well as Palpatine using his lightning. The saber duel is on ground, but then goes on the podium into the Senate, just as the movie shows. The two opponents then hurl Senate pods to at each other, just like in the movie. However, in the movie, both Yoda and Palpatine use the Force to hurl the pods, whereas in the novel, one uses the Force and the other uses the controls. Palpatine and Yoda then proceed to have a lightning battle as in the movie.

At the end of the battle, the lightning energy ball did not explode. Sidious leapt safely to a nearby podium, and the Grand Master followed. At this point, Yoda is "out" of Force energy. Palpatine turns around and blasts Yoda, who was still in the air, back against another podium; Yoda then fell to the bottom of the Senate Chamber.

Palpatine himself was not knocked over by any blast, but he was described as "a very old, very tired man" after the epic battle. Palpatine could not direct the search for Yoda as he hurried to rescue Darth Vader, but he told the clones to destroy the whole building if they had to.

http://www.guysmith.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/adams-abuse-of-language.png

I HEREBY DECLARE THE BOOK AS HERESY!

BRING IT FORTH INTO A PILE AND BURN IT SO THAT THE HEAVENS MAY SEE IT FROM AHIGH!

NO MORE SHALL OUR CHILDREN LISTEN TO THESE VILE LIES WHICH LEAD THEM ASTRAY.

NAY, BRETHREN, I SAY LET US BE FREE FROM EVIL AND FOULNESS AND ZONAKIN!

LET US BE FREE!

Zonakin, or Anakin in 'le zone' of being his potential badass... Wasn't that Anakin on Mortis, when he was all choking up the Son and Daughter and all?

I mean, that makes more sense than the RotS novelization which honestly, was blatantly just him tapping his rage.

Just wondering, if I got that right? That's how it seems to be for me.