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Rules: Fight is to the death, and CU cannot come back if killed.
No prep time.
Characters are composite versions of each other, so all spells, weapons etc.
Dovahkiin is NOT allowed the Legendary upgrade (cannot upgrade infinitely).
Who wins in a random encounter?
My vote goes to the CU, but I'd like to see what y'all think.
BTW first post for moi

You know that, according to lore, Dovahkiin can sink islands by shouting?

I think chosen undead

I can't find that much info. What is Chosen Undead destructive capability? Cause Dovahkiin one shots him if he isn't a powefull tank

Probably Large cities destructibility

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Probably Large cities destructibility

Which weapon or magic is gonna use to do that?? So I can research it

Barrier magic, short ranged gravity manipulation, poison manipulation,able to amplify defenses against magic with barrier magic, can turn themselves or their weapon invisible, shapeshifting, energy blasts, summoning of ethereal blades, these are some abilities

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Barrier magic, short ranged gravity manipulation, poison manipulation,able to amplify defenses against magic with barrier magic, can turn themselves or their weapon invisible, shapeshifting, energy blasts, summoning of ethereal blades, these are some abilities

That'll make him street level

Lol thats a lie hes been voted mid to high meta i said some of his abilities hes got a lot more he has even been able to dodge lighting

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Lol thats a lie hes been voted mid to high meta i said some of his abilities hes got a lot more he has even been able to dodge lighting

Doubt you play a meta in a game bro. Please don't wank

Originally posted by trexalfa
Doubt you play a meta in a game bro. Please don't wank whatever you just said i did not understand

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
whatever you just said i did not want to understand

Fixed

Originally posted by trexalfa
Fixed Still not sure what your trying to say

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Still not sure what your trying to say

You gotta be kidding. Meta is too overpowered for a game protagonist. Are you trying to say that CO is above a multiverse??

Originally posted by trexalfa
You gotta be kidding. Meta is too overpowered for a game protagonist. Are you trying to say that CO is above a multiverse?? Ever heard of Kratos, we put him in low herald, ever heard of master chief survived a fall from space, and what about link

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Ever heard of Kratos, we put him in low herald, ever heard of master chief survived a fall from space, and what about link

Are you comparing HERALD with METAVERSAL?? Too long a gap

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Barrier magic, short ranged gravity manipulation, poison manipulation,able to amplify defenses against magic with barrier magic, can turn themselves or their weapon invisible, shapeshifting, energy blasts, summoning of ethereal blades, these are some abilities
Wards, telekinesis, alchemy, stone flesh, the shout or spell, any destructive magic, bound sword. Besides shapeshifting, dragonborn has him in beat.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Wards, telekinesis, alchemy, stone flesh, the shout or spell, any destructive magic, bound sword. Besides shapeshifting, dragonborn has him in beat.

And that is without taking island busting shouts into account

Originally posted by trexalfa
And that without taking island busting shouts into account when did he bust an island

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
when did he bust an island

Lore on normal Thu'um users has them shaking gigantic mountains and sinking islands. And Dovahkiin has natural talent for it so... yeah. And is far more skilled than the Greybeards, who could do what I just said

First dragonborn did.

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Probably Large cities destructibility

lol

Originally posted by ares834
lol At full power he is said to be able to destroy large cities

So many claims, so little proof.

Also, when we say meta, we mean metahuman, not metaversal.

Originally posted by trexalfa
You know that, according to lore, Dovahkiin can sink islands by shouting?

I'm not sure that'll matter. The CU has dodged dragonslayer great arrows, which travel at like Mach 1.6, I think. He could just easily dodge any of the D's shouts.

Slow Time would be useless too.

Originally posted by trexalfa
I can't find that much info. What is Chosen Undead destructive capability? Cause Dovahkiin one shots him if he isn't a powefull tank

He's at least at city block level durability, but I doubt any of the D's attacks are fast enough to hit him. Shouts naturally travel at the speed of sound, right (cuz they're shouts), but the CU is supersonic, so it's doubtful they would hit.

However, he's pretty strong on his own right. He can tank a blow from Smough's hammer, which weighs 193 tons (calc'd by Chaos at the OBD along with speed and durability). He can carry his own version of Smough's hammer too, which weighs about 27 tons.

I haven't heard any super-strength/speed feats for the Dovahkiin, but there could be some out there.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
So many claims, so little proof.

Also, when we say meta, we mean metahuman, not metaversal.

If you check out his OBD profile, and the Dark Souls profile, you'll find some calcs by ChaosTheory123 that put him at city block durability/destructive capacity. His speed sits at Supersonic, and his class 100+ strength (amazingly).

Before beating the game, Clavicus Vile admited that the Dragonborn had nearly as much power as himself (in that moment he had half his power due to Barbas being away). After beating the game (absorbed so many Dragon Souls and more magic and shouts) and the Dragonborn DLC (absorbed every soul within Miraak, learn some neat powers from Hermaeus Mora, can use Bend Will and Dragon Aspect) he must be as powerfull as a weak god (see how powerful Miraak was). Gods by TES standars aren't people to **** arround with



Can slow down time and become ethereal. If CO can react to lightning, then Dragonborn can do the same (see dodgin' a thunder spell and the lightning from his own Call Storm shout)



http://www.imperial-library.info/content/high-hrothgar-tablets

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
when did he bust an island When did the Chosen Undead bust a city, lol?

Originally posted by NemeBro
When did the Chosen Undead bust a city, lol? I never said he did but at full power even the game designers said he could.

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
I never said he did but at full power even the game designers said he could.

I doubt it. I'll believe you if you quote that designer on the forums. Game designers don't usually talk about "potential destructive power" you know

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
I never said he did but at full power even the game designers said he could. Prove it.

Originally posted by trexalfa
Before beating the game, Clavicus Vile admited that the Dragonborn had nearly as much power as himself (in that moment he had half his power due to Barbas being away). After beating the game (absorbed so many Dragon Souls and more magic and shouts) and the Dragonborn DLC (absorbed every soul within Miraak, learn some neat powers from Hermaeus Mora, can use Bend Will and Dragon Aspect) he must be as powerfull as a weak god (see how powerful Miraak was). Gods by TES standars aren't people to **** arround with



Can slow down time and become ethereal. If CO can react to lightning, then Dragonborn can do the same (see dodgin' a thunder spell and the lightning from his own Call Storm shout)





Neither D nor CU can react to lightning. It's magic lightning for both, not real fast moving lightning. I doubt all the inhabitants of Skyrim and Lordran are relativistic haha. Actually D's speed would have to be capped at Mach 1 considering Whirlwind Sprint is a shout that "carries him" and the only speed it could move at is Mach 1 (cuz it's a shout). CU can react to things moving at Mach 1.62 and D can't react while using Whirlwind sprint making his real reaction speed lower.

On the subject of slow time, it only slows you down to 10% so CU is still faster than D.

I have a feeling vegeta is wanking though. CU is at city block destruction not city level. The designers never said anything regarding that.

I should mention that Dovahkiin managed to fight Tsun to a draw in Sovngarde.

Tsun is the Nordic aspect of Zenithar, one of the Nine Divines who created Mundus, and indeed one of the worlds existing within it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I should mention that Dovahkiin managed to fight Tsun to a draw in Sovngarde.

Tsun is the Nordic aspect of Zenithar, one of the Nine Divines who created Mundus, and indeed one of the worlds existing within it.

That's certainly impressive, if unquantifiable. Plus, the CU has fought gods too, and unless you've got some better feats, I think the CU would take it. He's faster (Mach 1.62) stronger, (carries around the equivalent of 15 small cars IN BOTH HANDS- his own smaller smoughs hammer) and tougher ( the impact of smoughs 193 ton hammer is equivalent to about 4 tons of TNT). He's fast enough to dodge shouts, slow time doesn't slow him enough, he can cancel out an opponents ability to perform spells, and he's just a smarter more strategic fighter IMO.

Tldr CU outclasses generally across the board.

Now if I'm missing something, please tell me, but as I see it, the Dovahkiin is (puts on sunglasses) Fus Ro Dead. Ba dum tss

Dark Souls gods are weak feebs in comparison.

No longer eating, I can make a more detailed post.

Dova is able to parry Alduin's blows, Alduin who crumbled underground caverns dozens of meters below the surface, from the surface.

In terms of durability he can of course tank those same blows, fight and take blows from deities like the aforementioned Tsun or Alduin, and was able to withstand the combined might of all four Greybeard's Thu'ums at High Hrothgar.

Speed is iffier, in-game at least you can dodge and react to Thu'ums, but other than that I can't recall.

Dova also have CU's number in destructive capacity and versatility with his Thu'um.

Also, Slow Time will certainly be enough to bridge the speed gap.

It slows time to 10% of what is normal, aka, the CU is 1/10th as fast as he once was. So about 55 meters per second now. Dovahkiin can also snatch arrows out of mid-air, albeit it is difficult to do so.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No longer eating, I can make a more detailed post.

Dova is able to parry Alduin's blows, Alduin who crumbled underground caverns dozens of meters below the surface, from the surface.

In terms of durability he can of course tank those same blows, fight and take blows from deities like the aforementioned Tsun or Alduin, and was able to withstand the combined might of all four Greybeard's Thu'ums at High Hrothgar.

Speed is iffier, in-game at least you can dodge and react to Thu'ums, but other than that I can't recall.

Dova also have CU's number in destructive capacity and versatility with his Thu'um.

Also, Slow Time will certainly be enough to bridge the speed gap.

It slows time to 10% of what is normal, aka, the CU is 1/10th as fast as he once was. So about 55 meters per second now. Dovahkiin can also snatch arrows out of mid-air, albeit it is difficult to do so.



Ah, finally, some good feats!

I'm liking the Alduin strength feat, and it should be comparable to the Smough strength feat, plus the CU can parry Gwyn's blows, who is probably stronger than Smough. ANYWAY, the CU has his own version of slow time called Tranquil Walk of Peace that manipulates the gravity around the opponent achieving a similar effect for longer and without affecting the user.

Besides that, I agree that D has better versatility with his shouts, but because of the CU's speed, they're ultimately useless. Same goes for magic. Vow of Silence would disable both their magic turning it into a melee fight, a place where the CU still has a big advantage in speed.

For durability, he can tank Smoughs blow no sweat and the chaos fire storm spell which is city block level.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Dark Souls gods are weak feebs in comparison.

Very true, but if Tsun is anything like a Daedric Prince, it's some serious PIS that the D could stalemate him.

I'm sorry, ChaosTheory123 updated the smough's hammer feat. It upgrades it from 4 tons of TNT in force to 175.9. Jesus. Even as a Dark Souls fanboy I'm surprised. And the CU can dish out 3.14 tons of tnt in a single swing, so town level durability is actually looking viable.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
I'm sorry, ChaosTheory123 updated the smough's hammer feat. It upgrades it from 4 tons of TNT in force to 175.9. Jesus. Even as a Dark Souls fanboy I'm surprised. And the CU can dish out 3.14 tons of tnt in a single swing, so town level durability is actually looking viable.

Actually, since he can parry Gwyn, who should be stronger than Smough, the CU should be able to dish out more than 175.9 tons of tnt.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Very true, but if Tsun is anything like a Daedric Prince, it's some serious PIS that the D could stalemate him.

Tsun should be a weakling outside of Mundus, so it isn't PIS at all. When the Aedra gave up a part of themselves to create the Mundus, they gave up most of their power. Inside of the Mundus however, they are as powerful as a Daedric Prince is in his realm. The battle took place in Sovngarde which is Shor's realm. So Tsun was at terms with the Dragonborn at least while in there.

And talking about what NemeBro said about tanking the combined Thu'um of the Greybeards, keep in mind this Thu'um reduced to ash a superpowered avatar that solo armies all by himself

Originally posted by trexalfa
Tsun should be a weakling outside of Mundus, so it isn't PIS at all. When the Aedra gave up a part of themselves to create the Mundus, they gave up most of their power. Inside of the Mundus however, they are as powerful as a Daedric Prince is in his realm. The battle took place in Sovngarde which is Shor's realm. So Tsun was at terms with the Dragonborn at least while in there.

And talking about what NemeBro said about tanking the combined Thu'um of the Greybeards, keep in mind this Thu'um reduced to ash a superpowered avatar that solo armies all by himself

Look, I never said that Unrelenting Force isn't impressive and powerful as all hell. A full strength one would eradicate the CU, even with his upgrade I mentioned.

The problem with it is SPEED. Not only do you have to say ALL THREE WORDS to get the full effect (anything less would tickle the CU), it travels at a speed much slower (about 200 m/s slower) than the CU can react. On top of that, performing a Thu'um leaves the D completely open to attack while performing it. On top of THAT, the window at which it actually does damage is much smaller the closer you get, furthing limiting its use.

An attack that moves at the speed of sound just isn't that effective against a supersonic (possibly hypersonic if you consider his feat of dodging the Iron Golem's shockwaves) opponent.

Knowhatahmsaiyan?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Look, I never said that Unrelenting Force isn't impressive and powerful as all hell. A full strength one would eradicate the CU, even with his upgrade I mentioned.

The problem with it is SPEED. Not only do you have to say ALL THREE WORDS to get the full effect (anything less would tickle the CU), it travels at a speed much slower (about 200 m/s slower) than the CU can react. On top of that, performing a Thu'um leaves the D completely open to attack while performing it. On top of THAT, the window at which it actually does damage is much smaller the closer you get, furthing limiting its use.

An attack that moves at the speed of sound just isn't that effective against a supersonic (possibly hypersonic if you consider his feat of dodging the Iron Golem's shockwaves) opponent.

Knowhatahmsaiyan?

Reaction time doesn't matter when you can slow down time and become intangible

Originally posted by trexalfa
Reaction time doesn't matter when you can slow down time and become intangible

I covered this in one of my other posts but ill do so again. CU has his own version of slow time called tranquil walk of peace that increases the gravity around an opponent. It does nearly the same thing for just as long without slowing down the user. Besides, what's to stop the CU from killing him as he speaks the words. He's fast enough to do so.

And become ethereal is only useful to give yourself a breather. You can't fight while in that state.

So yes, reaction time is critical, especially if you can dodge your opponents deadliest attacks easily.

Doesn't dova have a shout that would freeze him solid?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Doesn't dova have a shout that would freeze him solid?

That on top, but CU has the change to dodge it as he is putting. His reflexes must be atonishing

But second, keep in mind that cooldowns are gameplay mechanics, Dragonborn can probably shout himself in and out of ethereal state. It doesn't matter how fast he has to say the words, the Thu'um works by trying to send a meaning through the words.

What if he illusions his foe? Blast his foe full of pacify then shouts him up.

Dragon Aspect should be powerful enough to tank CU.

Pretty sure while Storm Call involves magic, it's real lightning striking from the sky at lightning speeds. Dodging that puts Dova at a super high speed level doesn't it?

Originally posted by KingD19
Pretty sure while Storm Call involves magic, it's real lightning striking from the sky at lightning speeds. Dodging that puts Dova at a super high speed level doesn't it?


I thought about that, and I'd have to say its a gameplay anachronism. There's nothing else to suggest he can move that fast. Dodging a shout lines up much more with his skill set. Like I said, I doubt the inhabitants of Skyrim are all relativistic.

But who all dodges lightning aside from him? Usually when I cast Storm Call, people get hit with it.

Originally posted by trexalfa
Dragon Aspect should be powerful enough to tank CU.

He's fought dragons before and beaten them.

And the CU isn't defenseless during that time. He has Iron Flesh and other such spells and equipment that can keep them occupied. Dragon Aspect would at best delay the inevitable outcome.

Originally posted by trexalfa
That on top, but CU has the change to dodge it as he is putting. His reflexes must be atonishing

But second, keep in mind that cooldowns are gameplay mechanics, Dragonborn can probably shout himself in and out of ethereal state. It doesn't matter how fast he has to say the words, the Thu'um works by trying to send a meaning through the words.

It's all relative. Most characters from the HST would speed blitz the CU into a fine red mist. The CU is simply faster than D, so most of D's attacks are going to be ineffective.

And I'm willing to accept cool downs as non canon, but you still have to say the words, which has to take some time. It's unclear how fast is TOO fast, but he needs to say and pronounce the words, right? It'll be fast, but probably not fast enough, especially against an ******* character who likes to fish for backstabs lol

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
What if he illusions his foe? Blast his foe full of pacify then shouts him up.

Pacify is level capped at level 20, meaning it wouldn't work on more powerful opponents. Seeing as the CU has by the end game become somewhat of a low level deity, I doubt it'd effect him. I'm not trying to say level caps are canon, only that BECAUSE of the level cap, it canonically wouldn't work on a stronger opponent.

Originally posted by KingD19
But who all dodges lightning aside from him? Usually when I cast Storm Call, people get hit with it.

People that aren't trying to dodge it. The D's speed in game isn't really that different from others. Look, all I'm saying is that it's a blatant outlier based entirely on limitations in the gameplay. Not even the lore (that massively inflates his power compared to in game) gives him feats like that.

The dragonslayer arrow dodging feat is backed up by both gameplay and a cutscene (and physics to an extent) as well as other feats of similar magnitude.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Pacify is level capped at level 20, meaning it wouldn't work on more powerful opponents. Seeing as the CU has by the end game become somewhat of a low level deity, I doubt it'd effect him. I'm not trying to say level caps are canon, only that BECAUSE of the level cap, it canonically wouldn't work on a stronger opponent.
Fine . Harmony(or whatever the top calm spell is) the guy, then shout him.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Fine . Harmony(or whatever the top calm spell is) the guy, then shout him.

Still level-capped. And vow of silence would eliminate both of their abilities to perform magic, turning it into a relatively quick melee fight. On top of that, the CU has magical barrier spells too. Basically the point I'm trying to get across is that shouts and magic aren't useful in a fight against the CU.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Still level-capped. And vow of silence would eliminate both of their abilities to perform magic, turning it into a relatively quick melee fight. On top of that, the CU has magical barrier spells too. Basically the point I'm trying to get across is that shouts and magic aren't useful in a fight against the CU.

You fail to understand that a level cap is a gameplay mechanic which are thought out to make the game balanced. If they powered the shouts using lore as a base, I bet Dragonborn just one shots everything in the game but Alduin and Miraak

You talk about CU being a low level deity in Dark Souls, when I previously told you that the Last Dragonborn is somewhere arround that level after Dragonborn DLC. Never fyck with a guy who defeated a World Eating God of Time Dragon, and the First Dragonborn who had power from Hermaeus Mora and brainwashed a whole island into mindless cultists.

Shouts are as effective as all hell. One Fus Roh Dah could simply bust the whole battlefield. Wulfharth could disintegrate people by whispering! I doubt last Dragonborn is ages weaker than him

Originally posted by trexalfa
You fail to understand that a level cap is a gameplay mechanic which are thought out to make the game balanced. If they powered the shouts using lore as a base, I bet Dragonborn just one shots everything in the game but Alduin and Miraak

You talk about CU being a low level deity in Dark Souls, when I previously told you that the Last Dragonborn is somewhere arround that level after Dragonborn DLC. Never fyck with a guy who defeated a World Eating God of Time Dragon, and the First Dragonborn who had power from Hermaeus Mora and brainwashed a whole island into mindless cultists.

Shouts are as effective as all hell. One Fus Roh Dah could simply bust the whole battlefield. Wulfharth could disintegrate people by whispering! I doubt last Dragonborn is ages weaker than him

So how does any of what you just said debate the points I've made?

Ok fine, ignore the level cap. Got it. Read the rest of that post and see why magic is useless.

Their respective deity level is not a good way to measure who would win. For example, Thor and Raiden are both gods of thunder, but one's a LOT more powerful than the other. I'm not saying the gap between the D and the CU is that wide, just trying to illustrate a point.

And please, stop bringing up Unrelenting Force. It's powerful. OK. I'm tired of addressing why it isn't a viable asset in this fight.

Soooooo, yeah. As it stands, CU is faster than Thu'ums, can cancel out any magic, and because of his speed would handily beat D in a Marlee fight.

Anybody like to debate these points?

Enchanting.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Enchanting.

Like weapons?

Or was that last post simply irresistable?

Now I think about him using Soul Tear at short distance so he can rip his soul out??? Or just outright Bend Will, then it is over.

Yes, he is talking about weapons. What a pity he can't use this shout, he could just summon Shor's ghost and it is all over.

"Before the birth of men, the Dragons ruled all Mundus.

Their word was the Voice, and they spoke only for True Needs.

For the Voice could blot out the sky and flood the land."

Also, don't underestimate Last Dragonborn speed either

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
but the CU is supersonic,
No, the Chosen Undead doesn't have super-speed.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
However, he's pretty strong on his own right. He can tank a blow from Smough's hammer, which weighs 193 tons (calc'd by Chaos at the OBD along with speed and durability). He can carry his own version of Smough's hammer too, which weighs about 27 tons.
The official weight for Smough's Hammer in-game is 28.0 kg.

Originally posted by Astner
No, the Chosen Undead doesn't have super-speed.


The official weight for Smough's Hammer in-game is 28.0 kg.

And that's why I prefer not to trust OBD

Originally posted by Astner
No, the Chosen Undead doesn't have super-speed.


The official weight for Smough's Hammer in-game is 28.0 kg.

Wrong and wrong. Go check out the OBDs Dark Souls page. It'll link you to the feats that I already mentioned on this page

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Wrong and wrong.
http://i.imgur.com/aOBaGmTl.png
Bottom right corner, 28.0.

And the argument that the Chosen Undead is supersonic is so asinine that I barely can conceive of the level autistic nitpicking required to come to such an ass-backwards conclusion, but I can guarantee you that it boils down to some poorly designed game mechanic.

Originally posted by trexalfa
And that's why I prefer not to trust OBD

Ugh so a hammer 3 times larger than an actual person is 28 kg.

Chaostheory123 did measurements to find its actual weight.

Don't try to use obviously uninformed posts to boost your weak sauce argument

Originally posted by Astner
http://i.imgur.com/aOBaGmTl.png
Bottom right corner, 28.0.

And the argument that the Chosen Undead is supersonic is so asinine that I barely can conceive of the level autistic nitpicking required to come to such a ass-backwards conclusion, but I can guarantee you that it boils down to some poorly designed game mechanic.

Find me where it says kg

Originally posted by Astner
http://i.imgur.com/aOBaGmTl.png
Bottom right corner, 28.0.

And the argument that the Chosen Undead is supersonic is so asinine that I barely can conceive of the level autistic nitpicking required to come to such a ass-backwards conclusion, but I can guarantee you that it boils down to some poorly designed game mechanic.

Oh and the speed comes from him dodging dragonslayer arrows, which are shown in a cutscene to move WAAAY faster than they do in game. There are other feats too.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Find me where it says kg
Well it's either pounds or kilograms, and I was giving you the benefit of a doubt.

But ignoring that, let's do some basic analysis.

It's easy to see that the weight system is linear. Because equipping two weapons at the same time has the weight penalty of their collective weights.

For instance, a Longsword weighs 3.0 units, equipping two Longswords will give you a collective weight of 6.0 units, like the Claymore which weighs 6.0 units.

I.e. it's a linear weight system.

Now doing some basic check up on the weapons, Longswords actually averaged around 3 pounds and Claymores around 6 pounds. So it's more likely that the designers based their weight system on the imperial unit.

Which puts actually Smough's Hammer at 12.7 kg, my bad.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Oh and the speed comes from him dodging dragonslayer arrows, which are shown in a cutscene to move WAAAY faster than they do in game. There are other feats too.
So you honestly think that the reason that the game designers decided to slow down arrows was to showcase speed rather than say condition the player to be able to react to the audio and visuals?

Even in light of the fact that your character can barely jump across a four-foot wide chasm, or that he falls at real time?

If your character was supersonic he'd be able to jump from the Undead Perish to the top of Sen's Fortress.

Originally posted by Astner
Well it's either pounds or kilograms, and I was giving you the benefit of a doubt.

But ignoring that, let's do some basic analysis.

It's easy to see that the weight system is linear. Because equipping two weapons at the same time has the weight penalty of their collective weights.

For instance, a Longsword weighs 3.0 units, equipping two Longswords will give you a collective weight of 6.0 units, like the Claymore which weighs 6.0 units.

I.e. it's a linear weight system.

Now doing some basic check up on the weapons, Longswords actually averaged around 3 pounds and Claymores around 6 pounds. So it's more likely that the designers based their weight system on the imperial unit.

Which puts actually Smough's Hammer at 12.7 kg, my bad.

Huh, I find it hard to believe an enormous iron hammer far larger than a person weighs only 12.7 kg. I told you where you could find a calc of its ACTUAL weight based on volume and composition. The weight system implemented is an example of gameplay restrictions, something often brought up to defend the D.

If you want to argue the calc, I'd be happy, but it's obvious you can't find any flaw in it.

Originally posted by Astner
So you honestly think that the reason that the game designers decided to slow down arrows was to showcase speed rather than say condition the player to be able to react to the audio and visuals?

Even in light of the fact that your character can barely jump across a four-foot wide chasm, or that he falls at real time?

If your character was supersonic he'd be able to jump from the Undead Perish to the top of Sen's Fortress.

I would have believed that arrow speed was gameplay. HOWEVER, they are shown in a cutscene to move MUCH faster. It's in the scene where Gough shoots down Kalameet. Without that cutscenes, yes, it's unquantifiable. But there it is. If you want to ignore canon evidence, that's fine, but please stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by trexalfa
Now I think about him using Soul Tear at short distance so he can rip his soul out??? Or just outright Bend Will, then it is over.

Yes, he is talking about weapons. What a pity he can't use this shout, he could just summon Shor's ghost and it is all over.

"Before the birth of men, the Dragons ruled all Mundus.

Their word was the Voice, and they spoke only for True Needs.

For the Voice could blot out the sky and flood the land."

Also, don't underestimate Last Dragonborn speed either

Soul tear? Against a guy who carries THOUSANDS of souls like currency?

And I'm not underestimating. The most logical estimation of his speed is transonic to sonic with whirlwind sprint.

While I'm here I might as well post those feats since some people are obviously too lazy (and unwilling) to look them up themselves. I would have before, but since I'm such a newb here, I couldn't at first.

Speed feat calc'd:http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19642

Strength feat calc'd: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19644

Those are the two main ones but there are others done by the same guy.

By the way, the Grant's item description says that it requires "inhuman strength to wield." The item descriptions are just about as canon as it gets in DkSls. The max weight ever lifted by a human was over 1000 kg lifted by Louis Cyr. The grant weighs 24 imaginary units (or 4 less than Smough's hammer). Call me crazy, but I'm sensing a discrepancy in logic. Obviously I'm too "autistic" and "asinine" to figure this out myslef. Please explain this to me! I'm excited to see your response!

I am too ****ing tired to respond in detail, but actually wielding a 28 kilogram weapon IRL with any sort of effectiveness would be ****ing impossible. For comparison, a halberd weighs like three kilograms. Same with a greatsword.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I am too ****ing tired to respond in detail, but actually wielding a 28 kilogram weapon IRL with any sort of effectiveness would be ****ing impossible. For comparison, a halberd weighs like three kilograms. Same with a greatsword.

Respond more in detail when you've gotten some sleep.

But that proves my point, doesn't it? The CU has super strength. Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Soul tear? Against a guy who carries THOUSANDS of souls like currency?

And I'm not underestimating. The most logical estimation of his speed is transonic to sonic with whirlwind sprint.

That's cause... the speed shown in game isn't the real speed. If you give CU the benefit of calculating some super speed and then Dragonborn is "as fast as the game shows him to be", of course CU speedblitzes.

We can't base speed on frickin' gameplay mechanics. Keep in mind that he cannnot be just a Nord, he can be a Khajiit as well. And those are frickin' agile.

I never debated him having super strength, I'm just trying to evade a speedblitz

Originally posted by trexalfa
That's cause... the speed shown in game isn't the real speed. If you give CU the benefit of calculating some super speed and then Dragonborn is "as fast as the game shows him to be", of course CU speedblitzes.

We can't base speed on frickin' gameplay mechanics. Keep in mind that he cannnot be just a Nord, he can be a Khajiit as well. And those are frickin' agile.

I never debated him having super strength, I'm just trying to evade a speedblitz

If not, then what? Is there any lore that gives him speed feats? I know his in game speed isn't representative of his actual speed. Same for the CU. They can't make the characters move as fast or the game wouldn't work. I get that totally. That's why we look at feats. Look, I think my first example is best. Whirlwind Sprint "carries him forward" (as stated in the description) and HAS to move at Mach 1, right? It's a shout, so yes. Shout being sound would necessitate that. That means his MAX speed is Mach 1, but he can't necessarily react that fast, because during Whirlwind Sprint everything blurs and is only useful for getting out of sticky situations, so his real speed is subsonic. If he could move faster than Mach 1, why is Whirlwind Sprint a shout? He would be moving SLOWER if he used it. What's wrong with that? If the battle turns into a blitz, it turns into a blitz. So, I've calculated speeds for both, and the CU is faster.

If you think I'm wrong at all with my conclusions, feel free to voice off, but your arguments have just been, "don't underestimate his speed," and that isn't factual, it's an opinion.

The only benefit the CU has is a better feat. And a better feat is a better feat.

Originally posted by Astner
Well it's either pounds or kilograms, and I was giving you the benefit of a doubt.

But ignoring that, let's do some basic analysis.

It's easy to see that the weight system is linear. Because equipping two weapons at the same time has the weight penalty of their collective weights.

For instance, a Longsword weighs 3.0 units, equipping two Longswords will give you a collective weight of 6.0 units, like the Claymore which weighs 6.0 units.

I.e. it's a linear weight system.

Now doing some basic check up on the weapons, Longswords actually averaged around 3 pounds and Claymores around 6 pounds. So it's more likely that the designers based their weight system on the imperial unit.

Which puts actually Smough's Hammer at 12.7 kg, my bad.

Oh and before I go to bed, nice job adding pounds and kilograms to the purely-gameplay related, obviously broken, fantasy world weight system that SPECIFICALLY USES NO UNITS. And I'm the guy who's stretching here?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Speed feat calc'd:http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19642
The calculation is flawed because it contradicts other elements of the game.

If it was true, then that would mean that the game plays out in in slow-motion, and for reasons other than artistic effect it decides to speed to real time the moment the arrow is fired.

That said, Gough never uses the bow against the player. If turned hostile he'll try to hit the player with his bare hands. So even if Gough did fire his arrow at supersonic speed the Chosen Undead will never get to dodge his arrows.

Now we do know that the game takes place in real time because of the the falling speed, jumping speed, and the audio.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Strength feat calc'd: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19644
First and foremost, there's nothing that suggests that the hammer is made of iron, nor that it isn't hollow or filled with a lighter substance.

However, if the hammer did weigh 3.14 tons it would snap, because the neck of the shaft wouldn't be able to support the head of the hammer.

So not only isn't the assumption that it's solid iron supported, it's outright contradicted by solid mechanics.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
By the way, the Grant's item description says that it requires "inhuman strength to wield." The item descriptions are just about as canon as it gets in DkSls. The max weight ever lifted by a human was over 1000 kg lifted by Louis Cyr. The grant weighs 24 imaginary units (or 4 less than Smough's hammer). Call me crazy, but I'm sensing a discrepancy in logic. Obviously I'm too "autistic" and "asinine" to figure this out myslef. Please explain this to me! I'm excited to see your response!
Carrying a weapon isn't the same as making effective use of it in combat.

Secondly you're getting caught up on hyperbole by making a far too literal interpretations of adjectives used for immersive impact.

Either way, the Grant weigh as much as 8 Longswords.

Originally posted by Astner
The calculation is flawed because it contradicts other elements of the game.

If it was true, then that would mean that the game plays out in in slow-motion, and for reasons other than artistic effect it decides to speed to real time the moment the arrow is fired.

That said, Gough never uses the bow against the player. If turned hostile he'll try to hit the player with his bare hands. So even if Gough did fire his arrow at supersonic speed the Chosen Undead will never get to dodge his arrows.

Now we do know that the game takes place in real time because of the the falling speed, jumping speed, and the audio.


First and foremost, there's nothing that suggests that the hammer is made of iron, nor that it isn't hollow or filled with a lighter substance.

However, if the hammer did weigh 3.14 tons it would snap, because the neck of the shaft wouldn't be able to support the head of the hammer.

So not only isn't the assumption that it's solid iron supported, it's outright contradicted by solid mechanics.


Carrying a weapon isn't the same as making effective use of it in combat.

Secondly you're getting caught up on hyperbole by making a far too literal interpretations of adjectives used for immersive impact.

Either way, the Grant weigh as much as 8 Longswords.

There are other feats. He dodges the bolt traps in Sen's, the shockwaves created by the Iron Golem (making his speed hypersonic, but the math on that is shaky so I didn't use it) as well as dodging the Sunlight spear (which is shown in the intro to be thrown faster, but, again, unquantifiable).

Look, the thing you're missing is, IT'S A VIDEO GAME? About a fantasy world no less? Why does the audio play out at regular speed? Why does the audio play out at regular speed in DBZ or ANYTHING OTHER MEDIA INVOLVING SUPERHUMANLY FAST CHARACTERS? Ugh, this is really sounding desparate.

The best reason I can give you, Mr. Literal, is that, oh I don't know, he can move at super speed in shorter bursts? He dodges gigantic steel arrows that can't possibly move as slow as they do in game, because if they did, they would fall immediately and hurt NOTHING when fired at a 0 degree angle. This is backed up in a cutscene. Gough later gives you his bow and you can use it. And dodge its arrows when fired at you in PVP or when the Dragonslayer Great Arrows are fired at you by enemies.

The hammer is made of iron or possibly steel. We know this because iron exists in the Dark souls universe (that's what the Grant's made out of). So, its made of one or the other, seeing as those are the only two metals viable for hammers. Why would you assume it to be made of a different substance inside? Smough's hammer demolishes enormous concrete (oops, sorry, they might be made of syrofoam) pillars when he swings them, and your character can block them without flinching. Nope, no super strength there. And again, the handle would snap? NO REALLY? LOOK AT IT, IT'S CARTOONISHLY HUGE! It also happens to be a video game with dragons and magic.

Here's the item description for the Grant: "A legendary weapon of the Way of White,
granted to an Undead paladin long ago.

This mass of iron can only be lifted by those
with inhuman strength, but it is blessed,
and very effective against agents of Dark.

Ignore canon evidence if you want, but it seems pretty clear cut to me. To me, it sounds like you're trying to use literally EVERYTHING to say that a magical world in a video game doesn't make sense. I can do the same thing to Skyrim and the Dovahkiin. It's easy. But I won't, because that's not the point. I've lurked here and around the OBD for a while, and I thought people had stopped trying to apply our laws of logic and physics to fantasy worlds. You're a senior member. I'm just a newb. You should know better.

I also forgot about the Demon's Great Hammer.

Here's its description: "Demon weapon built from the stone archtrees. Used by lesser demons at North Undead Asylum.
This hammer is imbued with no special power, but will merrily beat foes to a pulp, provided you have the strength to wield it."

STONE is the word that pops out to me.

Here's the obligatory calc: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19986

But heck, for fun let's ignore MORE canon evidence? Sound fun?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
There are other feats. He dodges the bolt traps in Sen's,
The bolt traps are based on the enemy projectile system, it's a product of flawed game mechanics.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
the shockwaves created by the Iron Golem
That's magic, in fact it's even referred to as the "blade of wind" in the description of the weapon.

Furthermore, shock-waves are longitudinal and thus always omnidirectional while propagating through three-dimensional space.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
The best reason I can give you, Mr. Literal, is that, oh I don't know, he can move at super speed in shorter bursts?
But not when he's running and jumping for some reason.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
He dodges gigantic steel arrows that can't possibly move as slow as they do in game, because if they did, they would fall immediately and hurt NOTHING when fired at a 0 degree angle. This is backed up in a cutscene.
You do know that the trajectory of the enemies arrows isn't curved, right? On top of that they have a homing property.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Gough later gives you his bow and you can use it. And dodge its arrows when fired at you in PVP or when the Dragonslayer Great Arrows are fired at you by enemies.
But Gough never uses it against you. In fact, your character can't even fire an arrow that far. So you can't use that as evidence.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
The hammer is made of iron or possibly steel. We know this because iron exists in the Dark souls universe (that's what the Grant's made out of). So, its made of one or the other, seeing as those are the only two metals viable for hammers.
False dilemma.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Why would you assume it to be made of a different substance inside?
I don't assume anything, I'm simply pointing out that the assumptions in the calculation aren't properly justified.

You can't just make up data where there is none.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Nope, no super strength there.
I never said that the Chosen Undead wasn't superhumanly strong, I'm just saying that he's not strong enough to wield a three-ton hammer, because there's nothing in the game suggesting that he could.

Even with the Black Knight Sword, the Chosen Undead only hurls the enemies a few feet into the air, and it's supposed to be an impressive attack.

Now if it was sound speed, it would've hurled the enemy max = 5,898 meters into the sky, or halfway through the troposphere. Granted, actual the distance would be reduced due to the drag, but it's still going to send the ****er through the clouds.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
And again, the handle would snap? NO REALLY? LOOK AT IT, IT'S CARTOONISHLY HUGE! It also happens to be a video game with dragons and magic.
This is a case of cherry-picking, you embrace what you like and dismiss all counter-evidence as fantasy irregularities.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Ignore canon evidence if you want, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.
Well, you've yet to convince a single poster in this thread. Furthermore, you're the only one ignoring evidence in favor of a handful of crippled mechanics.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
To me, it sounds like you're trying to use literally EVERYTHING to say that a magical world in a video game doesn't make sense.
If you're going to make calculations examining various in-game phenomena you can't cherry-pick a single instance and ignore the hundred of instances where it's contradicted. Especially when you make baseless assumptions regarding key properties.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
I also forgot about the Demon's Great Hammer.

Here's its description: "Demon weapon built from the stone archtrees. Used by lesser demons at North Undead Asylum.
This hammer is imbued with no special power, but will merrily beat foes to a pulp, provided you have the strength to wield it."

STONE is the word that pops out to me.

Here's the obligatory calc: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19986
There are various types of stone, all with different densities. On top of that we don't know if it's solid or hollow. In fact I would suspect the latter based of the Great Hollow area where you're literally walking through and archtree.

As for canon information, the game puts the human variant of the Demon's Great Hammer at 22.0 pounds less than 8 Longswords.

Originally posted by Astner
The bolt traps are based on the enemy projectile system, it's a product of flawed game mechanics.

So you're explanation of what should and shouldn't be considered gameplay mechanics is somehow more appropriate than mine? NONE of it makes sense. The guy casually dodges arrows but never runs at anything more than a trot. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and accepting his feats, and you're not, but at the same time you're ignoring his feats.



True, I forgot about that. I knew there was something that didn't really work with that, so I didn't bring it up unless pressed for feats.



Again, it depends on perspective. There are contradictory feats. He avoids arrows and spells moving at similar speeds THROUGHOUT THE ENITRE GAME, but then he can't jump very far.




Yes, but because gravity does exist here, they have to curve towards the ground, so being fired at a 0 degree angle at such a low speed would mean it would HAVE to almost immediately fall to the earth. They don't. Was this originally a gameplay anachronism? Yes. But like I've said a kajillion times before at this point, they ARE PROVEN to be effective weapons, by Gough and the Silver Knight Archers.




It's the same bow and arrow, and would have the same properties regardless of its wielder. If you can fire it, you can fire it. There's nothing to suggest you can't fire it that far other than the fact that the game loses track of your projectile, or it crashes into a wall.



What other metal then? I try not to assume, but seeing as iron is used in other weapons, I feel its a safe assumption. It's a weapon designed to kill things for pete's sake, its not going to be made of plastic.



He resists forces that are in excess of multiple tons regularly.



Last I checked you're the only one still responding. Not a single other poster challenged the feats I presented. They presented their own feats and I replied back accordingly.



Why would a hammer be hollow? Oh and it's made from the bark, or maybe a root. He's not carrying the whole tree, only a part of it.



You say I'm using baseless crippled mechanics and yet you STILL use the weight system. That's hypocritical and you know it.

The point, as I see it, depends on your interpretation of feats and you're suspension of disbelief. You've attacked the feats I've used because it doesn't match up with how we play the game. Fair enough. The same goes for Skyrim and the Dovahkiin, where all his feats are based off of lore, and are completely contradicted during the game. We can apply the same sort of demolition logic to BOTH games. When finding feats, it all depends on your interpretation of the material.

I'm not convincing you, and you certainly aren't convincing me, so why don't we leave it at that?

It's funny, the guy who did these feats had a similar argument, wish I could find it.

Shoulda known I'd get flak from a Dickwraith! No wonder we disagree. I'm a Sunbro for life!

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
So you're explanation of what should and shouldn't be considered gameplay mechanics is somehow more appropriate than mine? NONE of it makes sense. The guy casually dodges arrows but never runs at anything more than a trot. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and accepting his feats, and you're not, but at the same time you're ignoring his feats.



True, I forgot about that. I knew there was something that didn't really work with that, so I didn't bring it up unless pressed for feats.



Again, it depends on perspective. There are contradictory feats. He avoids arrows and spells moving at similar speeds THROUGHOUT THE ENITRE GAME, but then he can't jump very far.




Yes, but because gravity does exist here, they have to curve towards the ground, so being fired at a 0 degree angle at such a low speed would mean it would HAVE to almost immediately fall to the earth. They don't. Was this originally a gameplay anachronism? Yes. But like I've said a kajillion times before at this point, they ARE PROVEN to be effective weapons, by Gough and the Silver Knight Archers.




It's the same bow and arrow, and would have the same properties regardless of its wielder. If you can fire it, you can fire it. There's nothing to suggest you can't fire it that far other than the fact that the game loses track of your projectile, or it crashes into a wall.



What other metal then? I try not to assume, but seeing as iron is used in other weapons, I feel its a safe assumption. It's a weapon designed to kill things for pete's sake, its not going to be made of plastic.



He resists forces that are in excess of multiple tons regularly.



Last I checked you're the only one still responding. Not a single other poster challenged the feats I presented. They presented their own feats and I replied back accordingly.



Why would a hammer be hollow? Oh and it's made from the bark, or maybe a root. He's not carrying the whole tree, only a part of it.



You say I'm using baseless crippled mechanics and yet you STILL use the weight system. That's hypocritical and you know it.

The point, as I see it, depends on your interpretation of feats and you're suspension of disbelief. You've attacked the feats I've used because it doesn't match up with how we play the game. Fair enough. The same goes for Skyrim and the Dovahkiin, where all his feats are based off of lore, and are completely contradicted during the game. We can apply the same sort of demolition logic to BOTH games. When finding feats, it all depends on your interpretation of the material.

I'm not convincing you, and you certainly aren't convincing me, so why don't we leave it at that?

It's funny, the guy who did these feats had a similar argument, wish I could find it.

We need background on the abilities to make them available, not see effect in game. If not, then every one hit KO Pokemon move should be able to win most matches. I didn't answer early because I simply wasn't checkin' on this

Originally posted by trexalfa
We need background on the abilities to make them available, not see effect in game. If not, then every one hit KO Pokemon move should be able to win most matches. I didn't answer early because I simply wasn't checkin' on this

You need both. To ignore one and take the other is cherry-picking. For instance, taking Astner's line of reasoning, who's to say all the lore in Skyrim is made up? All lies? That would be overly anal to disprove and preposterous, but think about it, does Unrelenting Force have showings ANYWHERE NEAR what they are in the lore? No. Lore showings in Skyrim and actual in-game showings are so far apart in power they BLATANTLY contradict each other. I always thought to take the highest reasonable showings that a character has. And besides, you never challenged my feats (nor did anyone else) before Astner showed up.

To add on to that, the lore in Skyrim all comes from books and first hand accounts by characters, who might be lying. We don't really know for sure! Do I actually subscribe to that line of reasoning, no, that's silly and ruins the fun of having these debates, I'm just trying to point out that there are multiple ways of interpreting facts. There are always going to be inconsistencies. Do you ignore some to give your character the best chance without wanking? Or do you accept only what's immediately, irrefutably obvious? In my time spent lurking, its usually the former.

But in all seriousness, Astner, I'm digging the new profile pic.

Originally posted by Astner
The calculation is flawed because it contradicts other elements of the game.

If it was true, then that would mean that the game plays out in in slow-motion, and for reasons other than artistic effect it decides to speed to real time the moment the arrow is fired.

That said, Gough never uses the bow against the player. If turned hostile he'll try to hit the player with his bare hands. So even if Gough did fire his arrow at supersonic speed the Chosen Undead will never get to dodge his arrows.

Now we do know that the game takes place in real time because of the the falling speed, jumping speed, and the audio.


First and foremost, there's nothing that suggests that the hammer is made of iron, nor that it isn't hollow or filled with a lighter substance.

However, if the hammer did weigh 3.14 tons it would snap, because the neck of the shaft wouldn't be able to support the head of the hammer.

So not only isn't the assumption that it's solid iron supported, it's outright contradicted by solid mechanics.


Carrying a weapon isn't the same as making effective use of it in combat.

Secondly you're getting caught up on hyperbole by making a far too literal interpretations of adjectives used for immersive impact.

Either way, the Grant weigh as much as 8 Longswords.



Awesome.