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battle of the two self-made peak humans.

Ozy from watchmen vs. the kingpin of crime

Kingpin

kingpin

Kingpin.

Classic Kingpin was brutal. Also, he stomp.

Ozy gets pasted. Classic Kingpin was outmuscling Spidey wasn't he?

Yep, Fisk kills him.

Fisk laughs at Ozy in any first engage. Ozy might figure something out later... definitely not physically overcoming him

Originally posted by Uriel005
Fisk laughs at Ozy in any first engage. Ozy might figure something out later... definitely not physically overcoming him

While "I did it 35 minutes ago" is one of the greatest lines in the history of comic books, Ozy's pretty low end for both a genius villain, and a street leveler fighter, by comic book standards.

I can't see him outmaneuvering Fisk any more than beating him straight up.

Originally posted by cdtm
While "I did it 35 minutes ago" is one of the greatest lines in the history of comic books, Ozy's pretty low end for both a genius villain, and a street leveler fighter, by comic book standards.

I can't see him outmaneuvering Fisk any more than beating him straight up. Was thinking more along the lines of gas or environmental.

Kingpin: Is that gas I smell? -laser blasts Ozy with his cane-

Originally posted by KingD19
Kingpin: Is that gas I smell? -laser blasts Ozy with his cane- Ozy can dodge? and it still leaves KP sucking down fumes unless gas masks suddenly became standard. And like I said first encounter Fisk will murderstomp Ozy

Ozy wins. Fisk won't even get a hit in.

Are you joking? Or are you saying Ozy is faster than Spidey? Because Kingpin had no problem tagging him when they would fight.

Originally posted by KingD19
Are you joking? Or are you saying Ozy is faster than Spidey? Because Kingpin had no problem tagging him when they would fight. It's called jobbing. Spidey wasn't using his faster than bullet speed against Fisk. All comic fans knows that writer's ignore a character's speed in favor of the plot. In forum fights there is no jobbing and Spidey would spite stomp Kingpin.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy wins. Fisk won't even get a hit in.

Ozy loses.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's called jobbing. Spidey wasn't using his faster than bullet speed against Fisk. All comic fans knows that writer's ignore a character's speed in favor of the plot. In forum fights there is no jobbing and Spidey would spite stomp Kingpin.

So he was speed jobbing. What about strength/durability jobbing? Spidey's own commentary pointed out how hard Kingpin hit and how strong the guy was. He ripped a bank vault off it's hinges or something like that iirc.

And Ozy is painfully low end in the comics. The entire Watchmen universe is.

Fisk

Originally posted by h1a8
It's called jobbing. Spidey wasn't using his faster than bullet speed against Fisk. All comic fans knows that writer's ignore a character's speed in favor of the plot. In forum fights there is no jobbing and Spidey would spite stomp Kingpin.

Depends. Why do you say Fisk is that slow?

Is it because he is classed as a human? Dangerous argument to make, after all, Ozymandias is also human, as is Batman, and they've all done things that no human can do.

It IS PIS, but not in the way you think...more like Comic Plot Induced Stupidity. The same way gamma radiation turns you into a Hulk, or the existence of a mysterious Speed Force. Fisk was created not only as a criminal mastermind, but also as a physical threat to Spiderman. So yeah, logic dictates this big human guy shouldn't pose any threat to a bullet timer.....but he has enough showings to say otherwise.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Depends. Why do you say Fisk is that slow?

Is it because he is classed as a human? Dangerous argument to make, after all, Ozymandias is also human, as is Batman, and they've all done things that no human can do.

It IS PIS, but not in the way you think...more like Comic Plot Induced Stupidity. The same way gamma radiation turns you into a Hulk, or the existence of a mysterious Speed Force. Fisk was created not only as a criminal mastermind, but also as a physical threat to Spiderman. So yeah, logic dictates this big human guy shouldn't pose any threat to a bullet timer.....but he has enough showings to say otherwise. the same way that captain america is still considered "peak human"... my ass was classic Fisk "peak" human.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's called jobbing. Spidey wasn't using his faster than bullet speed against Fisk. All comic fans knows that writer's ignore a character's speed in favor of the plot. In forum fights there is no jobbing and Spidey would spite stomp Kingpin.

Didn't he already in Civil War? Been a while

Aww...

Juggerman, you make me feel old, if the Civil War is what you use to define 'classic'.....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Aww...

Juggerman, you make me feel old, if the Civil War is what you use to define 'classic'.....

Ha forgot it was Classic. As soon as he mentioned Spiderman not holding back against KP that's what popped into my head. Ignore me

Kingpin wins

Originally posted by KingD19
So he was speed jobbing. What about strength/durability jobbing? Spidey's own commentary pointed out how hard Kingpin hit and how strong the guy was. He ripped a bank vault off it's hinges or something like that iirc.


I think it's more he casually slammed open a really thick safe door with one hand, that Matt had to strain with all his strength just to move enough to go into the vault.

He's left imprints in steel beams and ripped up steel scaffolding that had Peter on it, though.

DD would school Ozy, I doubt Ozy could hurt a non serious KP.

Ozy would not get hit at all. He wins the majority.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy would not get hit at all. He wins the majority.

Ozy loses, he doesn't have the skill, strength or speed to beat Fisk.

I wonder if h1a8 has actually read any Kingpin or Watchmen comics.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy would not get hit at all. He wins the majority.

Kingpin hits Spiderman just fine.

But you said Spiderman was jobbing.

Why? Because Kingpin is merely classed as human?

That argument works for one or two showings. Kingpin consistently gives Spiderman a good fight.

Ozy has one bullet feat to his name? Maybe two? Surely that was jobbing as well, as logically no human can catch bullets in their hands?

Originally posted by KingD19
I wonder if h1a8 has actually read any Kingpin or Watchmen comics.

As his name suggests, Mr wiki tends to get his info from wiki and respect threads....he's the RenaissanceMan of KMC.

Kingpin wins, hell Classic Kingpin defeat Cap that put Kingpin at least peak human.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Kingpin hits Spiderman just fine.

But you said Spiderman was jobbing.

Why? Because Kingpin is merely classed as human?

That argument works for one or two showings. Kingpin consistently gives Spiderman a good fight.

Ozy has one bullet feat to his name? Maybe two? Surely that was jobbing as well, as logically no human can catch bullets in their hands?

Spidey can dodges bullets as a day job. This is a norm. Thus Spidey jobbed when getting hit by KP. Going by history, KP is not faster than a bullet. This has nothing to do with him being a human. Hulk is faster than KP and Spidey dances circles around him.

Post scans of Ozy beating someone on KP's strength/durability/skill level.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Kingpin wins, hell Classic Kingpin defeat Cap that put Kingpin at least peak human. KP won't get a hit on Ozy at all. Ozy would decimate KP.

Originally posted by h1a8
KP won't get a hit on Ozy at all. Ozy would decimate KP.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Post scans of Ozy beating someone on KP's strength/durability/skill level.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Post scans of Ozy beating someone on KP's strength/durability/skill level. I don't have to. Ozy is faster than KP and has the reflexes to see KP in slow motion. He would never get hit. A skillful statue is still a statue.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have to. Ozy is faster than KP and has the reflexes to see KP in slow motion. He would never get hit. A skillful statue is still a statue.

Post scans of him doing so to someone on KP's level.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Post scans of him doing so to someone on KP's level.

Level doesn't make you immune to being a statue. No amount of skill can combat speed. Your logic is off. Kingpin can be 10000000000000000000000000000000000 times more skilled than CA and still be a statue.

Originally posted by h1a8
Level doesn't make you immune to being a statue. No amount of skill can combat speed. Your logic is off. Kingpin can be 10000000000000000000000000000000000 times more skilled than CA and still be a statue.

IOW, you can't prove that Ozy can beat someone on KP's strength/durability/speed level.

Wait.

So what feats do we have that prove Ozy's skill and speed?

And are you, h1a8, saying that every time... Every time spiderman gets tagged by KP, its jobbing?

At what point does it cease to be PIS?

Another example, again using Batman.

An average human needs 7.5 hours sleep a night. More if you're doing strenuous athletics.

Batman needs less. Is every instance and example where they say how little sleep he gets, PIS? Therefore, every showing of his where he outperforms a human should be ignored?

Can I say the same about Ozy?

Ozzy is good, I don`t think he is low end for a streetlvl at all.
Naturally that does not stop the Monster that is Classic Kingpin from utterly demolishing him.

Originally posted by Silent Master
IOW, you can't prove that Ozy can beat someone on KP's strength/durability/speed level. Ozy catching the bullet proves it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy catching the bullet proves it.

No it doesn't, as I can name several street level people that have better bullet-time feats than Ozy, a couple of which KP has tagged more than once.

So again, post scans of Ozy beating someone on KP's strength/durability/skill/speed level.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy catching the bullet proves it.

PIS. The bullet jobbed. Bullets are always shown to be faster than humans, especially in the watchmen universe. Got any more examples?

Does Ozy have any feats that make him even able to hurt KP.

From Digi's respect thread:

He shoves Spidey so hard, they break through walls. No momentum built up, just benching:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/395/1635ra3.jpg

Edit

Kingpin nearly broke DD's leg just from being kicked.

Turned it into a link.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait.

So what feats do we have that prove Ozy's skill and speed?

And are you, h1a8, saying that every time... Every time spiderman gets tagged by KP, its jobbing?

At what point does it cease to be PIS?

Another example, again using Batman.

An average human needs 7.5 hours sleep a night. More if you're doing strenuous athletics.

Batman needs less. Is every instance and example where they say how little sleep he gets, PIS? Therefore, every showing of his where he outperforms a human should be ignored?

Can I say the same about Ozy?
If spidey dodges bullets on a regular then him getting hit by someone badly slower is PIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
If spidey dodges bullets on a regular then him getting hit by someone badly slower is PIS.

KP has hit multiple people that have better bullet-time feats than Ozy.

BTW, you still haven't posted any scans of Ozy beating someone on KP's level of skill/speed/strength/durability.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Does Ozy have any feats that make him even able to hurt KP. catching a bullet and pressure points. Remember in comics pressure points are God.

Originally posted by Silent Master
KP has hit multiple people that have better bullet-time feats than Ozy.

BTW, you still haven't posted any scans of Ozy beating someone on KP's level of skill/speed/strength/durability. There is a difference between having feats and doing shit on a regular.
If KP hit anyone with bullet time feats then it simply means that they didn't have bullet time speed and reactions then. Easy

Originally posted by h1a8
There is a difference between having feats and doing shit on a regular.
If KP hit anyone with bullet time feats then it simply means that they didn't have bullet time speed and reactions then. Easy

So feats must be done of the regular to count?

Originally posted by Silent Master
So feats must be done of the regular to count? To count for what?

Originally posted by h1a8
To count for what?

For a vs thread.

Originally posted by h1a8
If spidey dodges bullets on a regular then him getting hit by someone badly slower is PIS.

By that logic..... If bullets hit humans on a regular basis, then being caught once or twice by Ozy, a human, is PIS, right?

Then your argument will be, ozy isn't badly slower by the same degree as KP is to Spiderman.

Prove it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PIS. The bullet jobbed. Bullets are always shown to be faster than humans, especially in the watchmen universe. Got any more examples?

DS 10/10.

Go home, h1a8.

Originally posted by h1a8
If spidey dodges bullets on a regular then him getting hit by someone badly slower is PIS.

How do you know how slow Kinpin is? Maybe he's just that fast. Ever think of it that way?

You assume a lot but never prove anything.

Originally posted by h1a8
catching a bullet and pressure points. Remember in comics pressure points are God.
Neither of which prove anything...

Originally posted by Silent Master
For a vs thread. "So feats must be done of the regular to count? "

NO!
The point is stronger evidence can counter contradictory weaker evidence.
A contradiction can not exist. Either Spidey is faster than a bullet when it comes to reflexes and dodging or he is much slower where Kingpin and others can hit him.

He dodged bullets far more times and does it on a regular basis. Thus this is the standard and using Full Capacity anything that contradicts that is PIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
"So feats must be done of the regular to count? "

NO!
The point is stronger evidence can counter contradictory weaker evidence.
A contradiction can not exist. Either Spidey is faster than a bullet when it comes to reflexes and dodging or he is much slower where Kingpin and others can hit him.

He dodged bullets far more times and does it on a regular basis. Thus this is the standard and using Full Capacity anything that contradicts that is PIS.

How many times must someone perform a feat before it counts?

Originally posted by Silent Master
How many times must someone perform a feat before it counts? The number of times is irrelevant if the number of times the contrary has been shown is greater.

For example, if X amount of feats show case A and X+1 amount of feats shows case B, which contradicts case A, then we accept case B and say that case A is PIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
The number of times is irrelevant if the number of times the contrary has been shown is greater.

For example, if X amount of feats show case A and X+1 amount of feats shows case B, which contradicts case A, then we accept case B and say that case A is PIS.

Well, KP has been shown to tag people with bullet-time feats far more often than he's been shown as unable to, thus using your standards....KP can tag bullet-timers.

Now, show feats of Ozy beating someone of KP's skill/speed/durability/strength level.

He won't show feats. I doubt he's even read or has access to the Watchmen comics.

He'll just continue to claim Ozy is better without any proof.

Why is this thread still going when there was 99% spite agreement on the first page?

The same reason all threads like this keep going. The 1% won't concede in the face of utter defeat. And the mods won't close it yet.

Originally posted by Silent Master
How many times must someone perform a feat before it counts? For Hulk Odin and Thanos 1x everyone else must be every other issue.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy wins. Fisk won't even get a hit in. convinced he does this to make threads more interesting. The globals aren't missing, just socking as h1 and carver

I used to think h1 was just a troll, and still do... but he's so dedicated to being completely wrong. It's just... I don't know

Originally posted by Uriel005
For Hulk Odin and Thanos 1x everyone else must be every other issue. H1 hates Odin and Thanos though. For them it's 100 times.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Well, KP has been shown to tag people with bullet-time feats far more often than he's been shown as unable to, thus using your standards....KP can tag bullet-timers.

Now, show feats of Ozy beating someone of KP's skill/speed/durability/strength level.

But those people wasn't using their bullet time ability when KP hit them (unless they get hit more times than they time bullets). You can't use PIS to unprove PIS. Also Spidey is faster than all the so called bullet timers that KP hit.

Originally posted by h1a8
But those people wasn't using their bullet time ability when KP hit them. You can't use PIS to unprove PIS. Also Spidey is faster than all the so called bullet timers that KP hit.

Post proof that they were holding back their speed when fighting KP.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I used to think h1 was just a troll, and still do... but he's so dedicated to being completely wrong. It's just... I don't know. that's the brilliance of the ruse.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that's the brilliance of the ruse. He's gotta have like a main account if it's all just a joke

I mean he never breaks character

Or he just really really hates Marvel. Or a combo

Originally posted by Silent Master
Post proof that they were holding back their speed when fighting KP.

Spidey: I'm fighting this guy who could really mess me up if he catches me. Let me not fight to my full abilities and run the risk of getting severely injured or killed.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He's gotta have like a main account if it's all just a joke

I mean he never breaks character

Or he just really really hates Marvel. Or a combo killer combo, like reese's

Originally posted by h1a8
"So feats must be done of the regular to count? "

NO!
The point is stronger evidence can counter contradictory weaker evidence.
A contradiction can not exist. Either Spidey is faster than a bullet when it comes to reflexes and dodging or he is much slower where Kingpin and others can hit him.

He dodged bullets far more times and does it on a regular basis. Thus this is the standard and using Full Capacity anything that contradicts that is PIS.

Or....Kingpin is fast enough to tag him.

Why do you not accept this? When it has been shown on panel?

It goes back to my original point. Are you only arguing this because Fisk is 'peak human', as the handbooks suggest?

If so, then so is Ozy. And no peak human can catch bullets.

Better negate most of Batman et al's feats too.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Why do you not accept this? When it has been shown on panel?



He doesnt have a leg to stand on, but he'll continue to say stupid things like the other characters werent fighting to their best and they were letting Kingpin bash their skulls in.

How long must it last?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or....Kingpin is fast enough to tag him.

Why do you not accept this? When it has been shown on panel?

It goes back to my original point. Are you only arguing this because Fisk is 'peak human', as the handbooks suggest?

If so, then so is Ozy. And no peak human can catch bullets.

Better negate most of Batman et al's feats too. In comics, Tagging someone with bullet speed and reflexes doesn't mean they are faster than a bullet. That's what we call PIS. Kingpin is not faster than a bullet. Unless you can show evidence other than him to Tagging characters with their speed and reflexes turned off

Originally posted by h1a8
In comics, Tagging someone with bullet speed and reflexes doesn't mean they are faster than a bullet. That's what we call PIS. Kingpin is not faster than a bullet. Unless you can show evidence other than him to Tagging characters with their speed and reflexes turned off

Post proof that they were holding back their speed when fighting KP.

Guys, get back to the topic and stop the idiocy.

Originally posted by h1a8
In comics, Tagging someone with bullet speed and reflexes doesn't mean they are faster than a bullet. That's what we call PIS. Kingpin is not faster than a bullet. Unless you can show evidence other than him to Tagging characters with their speed and reflexes turned off

So you want feats, other than directly applicable combat feats, in order to apply it to a combat scenario? Are you serious?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you want feats, other than directly applicable combat feats, in order to apply it to a combat scenario? Are you serious? Nvr mind. My point is that KP Tagging people with bullet time feats doesn't mean anything if the ones tagged were not using bullet time speed or reflexes at the time. This is a forum fight and not a comic one.

Kingpin pretty much own Red Skull in h2h, and this Red Skull had the clone body of Captain America if Im not mistaken. Classic Kingpin would put a hurting on Ozy with a quickness.

Originally posted by h1a8
Nvr mind. My point is that KP Tagging people with bullet time feats doesn't mean anything if the ones tagged were not using bullet time speed or reflexes at the time. This is a forum fight and not a comic one.

And your proof that the characters were holding back their speed every single time they fought KP?

Originally posted by h1a8
Nvr mind. My point is that KP Tagging people with bullet time feats doesn't mean anything if the ones tagged were not using bullet time speed or reflexes at the time. This is a forum fight and not a comic one.

You'll need to prove that, to be honest - that they were holding back.

I mean, just to reverse the argument, what's to stop me from arguing that every person Ozy fought, every feat of his, was a result of people holding back?

Nite Owl was holding back against Ozy. Internal monologue and art may say things like 'I'm giving it my best, but he's still thrashing me soundly!', but I will still argue he was holding back.

Because essentially, that is what you're arguing, only with Kingpin and Spiderman. We clearly have Spiderman saying things like wow, his speed is catching me out, he's so fast etc etc - but you're dismissing it, and saying they're jobbing down to KP's level.

When, considering his history and the number of people he has fought, makes it less and less likely. Whereas with Ozy, he has had a handful of fights - and so, much more likely the five or so fights we've seen him in, his opponents were jobbing down to his level.

h1a8 is from the quan school of debating, IE ignore/lowball or call PIS on everything that hurts his argument.

QUOTE=14482025]Originally posted by Silent Master
And your proof that the characters were holding back their speed every single time they fought KP?


The writer written then without bullet time reactions and not that the characters purposely held back something.

KP dissolves Ozy

Originally posted by h1a8
QUOTE=14482025]Originally posted by Silent Master
And your proof that the characters were holding back their speed every single time they fought KP?


The writer written then without bullet time reactions and not that the characters purposely held back something.

So Alan Moore wrote the bullets which were fired by Nite Owl as being slower than normal bullets?

Essentially, what is rather difficult (for me to understand, anyway) is that whatever argument you try and use for KP being slow, can be applied equally to the feats of Ozy.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So Alan Moore wrote the bullets which were fired by Nite Owl as being slower than normal bullets?

Essentially, what is rather difficult (for me to understand, anyway) is that whatever argument you try and use for KP being slow, can be applied equally to the feats of Ozy.

Bullets are bullets in comics. If they weren't then we can throw away ALL bullet feats. We don't for the sake of the story and suspension of disbelief.
There is nothing against logic to say that the characters who KP tagged were operating at bullet timing ability at the time.

In a nutshell, if there are two conflicting theories then we go on the one that makes the most sense.

It makes more sense that the characters weren't operating at bullet time ability when they fought KP than

KP was moving with speeds significantly faster than a bullet when he fought the characters.

Originally posted by h1a8

It makes more sense that the characters weren't operating at bullet time ability when they fought KP than

KP was moving with speeds significantly faster than a bullet when he fought the characters.

Why?

Because he is peak human?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why?

Because he is peak human? NO because KP has never shown speed well beyond that of a bullet. He has to have bullet time feats or be referenced from the narration or character statements to be moving faster than a bullet. The fact that he tagged characters means absolutely nothing since we all know that writers can write characters without bullet time ability anytime they want. There are many many different examples of this (like when many slow beings tagged Spidey, Superman, etc.)

Originally posted by h1a8
NO because KP has never shown speed well beyond that of a bullet. He has to have bullet time feats or be referenced from the narration or character statements to be moving faster than a bullet. The fact that he tagged characters means absolutely nothing since we all know that writers can write characters without bullet time ability anytime they want. There are many many different examples of this (like when many slow beings tagged Spidey, Superman, etc.)

Still not understanding your logic here.

You're allowing, for the sake of the story, that human are able to be faster than bullets. To highlight how uber they are. So this is writer's intent - for the sake of the story, and suspension of belief, we allow it.

BUT

If the story calls for a guy to be a credible physical threat to Daredevil and Spiderman, amongst others, we DON'T suspend belief, and despite him actually hitting them, we.....assume that the characters were lowering their skills and speed.

This goes beyond speed, as well. Durability would be another. Kingpin has taken blows from Spiderman; Ozy's punches would be lovetaps to him. Pressure points wouldn't work, either; Red Skull tried that, and he took them.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still not understanding your logic here.

You're allowing, for the sake of the story, that human are able to be faster than bullets. To highlight how uber they are. So this is writer's intent - for the sake of the story, and suspension of belief, we allow it.

BUT

If the story calls for a guy to be a credible physical threat to Daredevil and Spiderman, amongst others, we DON'T suspend belief, and despite him actually hitting them, we.....assume that the characters were lowering their skills and speed.

This goes beyond speed, as well. Durability would be another. Kingpin has taken blows from Spiderman; Ozy's punches would be lovetaps to him. Pressure points wouldn't work, either; Red Skull tried that, and he took them. A human can have bullet time ability in comics. But a human cannot have bullet time ability if they never shown it (or stated to have it). KP was never shown nor was stated to move faster than a bullet. If he did then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Now do you understand my logic?

Spidey holds back his strength out of fear of killing. Otherwise the comic thug in comics would have class 10 or greater durability.
Stopping a bullet in midair takes tons of force to do. So Ozy has superhuman strength (in terms of real life). Plus pressure points are God in comics (even on people a lot stronger).

KP however has shown the ability to hit people that have bullet time feats and he's done this several times to multiple characters under multiple writers.

Spiderman holds back, true.

Red skull wasn't...and he was using pressure point attacks.

Daredevil doesn't hold back, much. Definitely doesn't when pissed.

Punisher definitely doesn't.

KP took them on.

http://imageshack.us/f/201/34764991wu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/18647220xx4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/60692133ya7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65488967oz8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/58406357xu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/79314089fa6.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65871407qk1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/17299533yd6.jpg/

The Red Skull, vs Kingpin.

'Every one of his body's vulnerable spots are so well padded, my strongest blows do not faze him!'

Pressure points may be your god, h1a8 - but they wouldn't work on the Kingpin. He's almost tailor made to take on Ozy.

With thanks to Bad Ash231

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://imageshack.us/f/201/34764991wu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/18647220xx4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/60692133ya7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65488967oz8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/58406357xu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/79314089fa6.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65871407qk1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/17299533yd6.jpg/

The Red Skull, vs Kingpin.

'Every one of his body's vulnerable spots are so well padded, my strongest blows do not faze him!'

Pressure points may be your god, h1a8 - but they wouldn't work on the Kingpin. He's almost tailor made to take on Ozy.

With thanks to Bad Ash231 Ok good point. But is Ozy strong enough to phase KP? I would guess yes since catching a bullet takes tons of force to do.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ok good point. But is Ozy strong enough to phase KP? I would guess yes since catching a bullet takes tons of force to do.

Where is it stated that it takes tons of force to catch bullets?

Ozymandias had his hand over the bullet trajectory before it was fired.

This is one of the two of Kingpin's biggest foes (the other is ****ing Spider-Man):
http://i39.tinypic.com/ml5kie.jpg

But yes, catching a bullet is naturally the feat that puts him in the untouchable range

Kingpin rapes him badly. The amount of trolling on the Ozymandias side which surprise surprise is one person, doesn't change that

that person only does what he does cause it's impossible to just reach over and palm thrust him once in the trachea

Originally posted by Silent Master
Where is it stated that it takes tons of force to catch bullets? I stated it above.

Originally posted by h1a8
I stated it above.

Whacking it like a bat would seem to take a large amount of force going by that logic. And Spidey who has tons of strength feats and probably has caught a bullet at least once couldn't do much to Kingpin.

Originally posted by h1a8
I stated it above.

No, you stated your opinion on how much force it takes...I want something from a comic.

Originally posted by h1a8
I stated it above.

As Ozy has never done it before, or since, and since even he was surprised that he could do it, shows that it was a one off, PIS feat. Have you any more examples of his strength?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As Ozy has never done it before, or since, and since even he was surprised that he could do it, shows that it was a one off, PIS feat. Have you any more examples of his strength?

Plus characters without super-strength have caught bullets before, namely Taskmaster...so there goes his "RL math" states it takes tons of force argument.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
This is one of the two of Kingpin's biggest foes (the other is ****ing Spider-Man):
http://i39.tinypic.com/ml5kie.jpg

That is awesome

Some further evidence that pressure point attacks don't work:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/73/602ol0.jpg

I'm applying...ALL the pressure I can...why doesn't he fall? (Spiderman)

Strength feat (ripping steel girders apart, with no evidence of welding):
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/1645ba2.jpg

Swinging 600lb weights like they're nothing?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/260/1973ai9.gif

Fights Cap...and winning:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/kpvc02js5.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/kpvc03tg6.jpg/

Fights Daredevil - who isn't holding back. To the point where he's actually hurting himself trying to hit Kingpin. Also, note how difficlut it is for MAtt to open the door...and the KP just casually does it with one hand.

http://imageshack.us/f/247/daredevil17113rf3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17114xj1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17115dq4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/135/daredevil17116fo4.jpg/

One Punch.

All taken from the respect thread, so thanks to all the contributors.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Some further evidence that pressure point attacks don't work:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/73/602ol0.jpg

I'm applying...ALL the pressure I can...why doesn't he fall? (Spiderman)

Strength feat (ripping steel girders apart, with no evidence of welding):
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/1645ba2.jpg

Swinging 600lb weights like they're nothing?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/260/1973ai9.gif

Fights Cap...and winning:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/kpvc02js5.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/kpvc03tg6.jpg/

Fights Daredevil - who isn't holding back. To the point where he's actually hurting himself trying to hit Kingpin. Also, note how difficlut it is for MAtt to open the door...and the KP just casually does it with one hand.

http://imageshack.us/f/247/daredevil17113rf3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17114xj1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17115dq4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/135/daredevil17116fo4.jpg/

One Punch.

All taken from the respect thread, so thanks to all the contributors.

Man, I sometimes forget how much of a beast Kingpin truly was. Ozy has no shot of winning this fight.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Fights Daredevil - who isn't holding back. To the point where he's actually hurting himself trying to hit Kingpin. Also, note how difficlut it is for MAtt to open the door...and the KP just casually does it with one hand.

http://imageshack.us/f/247/daredevil17113rf3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17114xj1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17115dq4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/135/daredevil17116fo4.jpg/


First comic book I've ever read.
oh the memories

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, you stated your opinion on how much force it takes...I want something from a comic. I stated a fact. You can choose to believe it or not. Its your choice.

Kp wins

Oh....wow.

Its me, isn't it? My arguments, flawless; my logic, pure.

Originally posted by h1a8
I stated a fact. You can choose to believe it or not. Its your choice.

No, you stated an opinion.

Originally posted by h1a8
Kp wins

You were arguing to the point off stupidity then you just acquiesce

WTF

Originally posted by h1a8
I stated a fact. You can choose to believe it or not. Its your choice.
Bullets hit with roughly a few hundred pounds of force, where are you getting tons from? Are you trying to equate strength to durability?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Bullets hit with roughly a few hundred pounds of force, where are you getting tons from? Are you trying to equate strength to durability?

Much like quan, h1a8 makes things up and then calls the facts.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Much like quan, h1a8 makes things up and then calls the facts.
An opinion is neither true or false as it is not even a statement.
What I said was either true or false and thus not an opinion.


Originally posted by pym-ftw
Bullets hit with roughly a few hundred pounds of force, where are you getting tons from? Are you trying to equate strength to durability? force to stop a bullet is a function of the stopping distance. A bullet penetrating something to a certain depth would hit with a few hundred pounds of force

I now believe kp wins since pressure points was shown not to work on him from someone almost or basically as strong. Plus kp can absorb a strike and counter with a bear hug.

Originally posted by h1a8
An opinion is neither true or false as it is not even a statement.
What I said was either true or false and thus not an opinion.

So if you were of the opinion that water boiled at 32 degrees fahrenheit and someone said that you were wrong, you'd argue that you're not wrong because "An opinion is neither true or false as it is not even a statement"?

Originally posted by Silent Master
So if you were of the opinion that water boiled at 32 degrees fahrenheit and someone said that you were wrong, you'd argue that you're not wrong because "An opinion is neither true or false as it is not even a statement"? that's still a statement (something true or false). leaving out relevant information doesn't turn something into an opinion. Water Can boil at 32 degrees but not in all situations.

Originally posted by h1a8
force to stop a bullet is a function of the stopping distance. A bullet penetrating something to a certain depth would hit with a few hundred pounds of force

So again,

Are you trying to equated Durability to strength?

Your arguing a non-factor in catching a bullet unless you can prove it bounced off him...

Originally posted by h1a8
that's still a statement (something true or false). leaving out relevant information doesn't turn something into an opinion. Water Can boil at 32 degrees but not in all situations.

You're missing the point, something being an opinon doesn't mean it can't be wrong. another case in point....at one point in history people were of the opinion that the Earth was flat.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
So again,

Are you trying to equated Durability to strength?

Your arguing a non-factor in catching a bullet unless you can prove it bounced off him... well perhaps, so maybe ozys hand is bullet proof, able to absorb tons of force in his hands.

Strength was applied in some way though. But I get your point.

Again its more durability, skin tension & strength than muscular strength.

Realistically he most likely changed the direction while slowing it down.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Again its more durability, skin tension & strength than muscular strength.

Realistically he most likely changed the direction while slowing it down. it was shown to stop instantly upon impacting his hands. That means little to no recoil on his hands implies strength. Generally when a bullet strikes something it either creates a deformation and or creates a change in the objects momentum.
In ozys case the deformation was skin deep.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


http://imageshack.us/f/247/daredevil17113rf3.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17114xj1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/295/daredevil17115dq4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/135/daredevil17116fo4.jpg/

One Punch.

All taken from the respect thread, so thanks to all the contributors.

Sheeeez that's a bank vault door. Crazy feat for both Matt and KP.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Sheeeez that's a bank vault door. Crazy feat for both Matt and KP.

Yeah, kind of makes you wonder why Marvel couldn't just admit Fisk is super human. Frank Miller here was pretty much stating his opinion through DD's narrative, and a lot of writers must have felt the same.. But I guess editorial wouldn't budge on the issue, which is a pretty odd, pointless thing to insist on..

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, kind of makes you wonder why Marvel couldn't just admit Fisk is super human. Frank Miller here was pretty much stating his opinion through DD's narrative, and a lot of writers must have felt the same.. But I guess editorial wouldn't budge on the issue, which is a pretty odd, pointless thing to insist on.. like Captain America or Batman being "Peak Human" with the feats that they have...

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, kind of makes you wonder why Marvel couldn't just admit Fisk is super human. Frank Miller here was pretty much stating his opinion through DD's narrative, and a lot of writers must have felt the same.. But I guess editorial wouldn't budge on the issue, which is a pretty odd, pointless thing to insist on.. I think the beating he took from a pissed off "All the upgrades" Spider-Man pretty much prove that. There aren't many class 50-100 that could have taken that and still been awake

Though Digi HATES that feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
it was shown to stop instantly upon impacting his hands. That means little to no recoil on his hands implies strength. Generally when a bullet strikes something it either creates a deformation and or creates a change in the objects momentum.
In ozys case the deformation was skin deep.

Of course, ignoring the fact that Ozy moved his arms back as well..

But its a non factor. KP wins, solidly. Tailor made to fight Ozy...and most street levellers, really.

Originally posted by h1a8
I now believe kp wins since pressure points was shown not to work on him from someone almost or basically as strong. Plus kp can absorb a strike and counter with a bear hug.

I guess what pissed a lot of people off, and makes you come across as a troll, is that all the information I posted (which, presumably, was what informed your change in opinion) was readily found in the Kingpin respect thread. You could've easily taken five minutes out and did a bit of research - no one is asking you to only post in here if you're a KP expert (I certainly am not), but at least realise what he has done.

Instead, you stubbornly clung to your two beliefs: Ozy's superior speed and that pressure points were god in comics, and attempted to apply your real world logic to a comic book setting.

When in fact, comic book logic has shown that Kingpin is arguably just as fast, if not faster, but even IF we ignore that, comics have shown that he is immune to pressure point type attacks. They are NOT the gods you hitched your wagon to, in fact, KP is specifically immune to it.

And I hope this showed you the dangers of using real world logic in a comic book. Sure, in real life, someone extremely fast could target pressure points on a big lumbering human and take him out. But in comics, that isn't a lumbering human, in fact, you could hardly call him human, and the flesh covering his pressure points is in fact, effectively armour plating.

And again, five minutes in his respect thread would've shown you this.

I now believe that Ozymandias is the winner.

You've convinced me, h1a8.

Originally posted by Mindset
I now believe that Ozymandias is the winner.

You've convinced me, h1a8.

Rape off. This ain't bluewaterrider.

The catching feat proves Ozzy is bulletproofz, he takes this. Kingpin can`t harm him.

ok /sarcasm

Kp

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Sheeeez that's a bank vault door. Crazy feat for both Matt and KP.


IIRC young Spiderman struggled more the KP as well but DD struggled more the young Spiderman.