Government Shutdown

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Supra
I think this is a good thing..Obama has forgotten about Syria.

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/obama-forgets-about-syria-aims-his-missiles-back-towards-the-us/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/world-war-ii-vets-storm-shuttered-memorial-washington-article-1.1472716

God Bless those Vets

Lord Lucien
So the 800,000 or so people on furlough is a good thing because Obama isn't talking about Syria now...


Right.

wilco
Republicans and Democrats are complete morons anyway, I'm sure they're still getting paid laughing

The might and power of United States of America... rolling on floor laughing laughing

Idiots!

Nemesis X
These democrats amuse me. Ever since the shutdown happened, they've been throwing whatever bullshit they can pick up at the republicans to make them look bad. One of them is the longer the government is inactive, republicans threaten the safety of children who are cancer patients and the republicans respond to that by passing a bill that will help said children but now the stupid dems want to abolish it. WTF? haermm

Tzeentch._
Republicans don't need any help looking like idiots. They look like complete ****ing morons in this debacle.

Nemesis X
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Republicans don't need any help looking like idiots. They look like complete ****ing morons in this debacle.

So are the democrats. In truth, both sides are stupid. You just have to decide which one is less retarded than the other.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Nemesis X
So are the democrats. In truth, both sides are stupid. You just have to decide which one is less retarded than the other. Having to decide on a ruling party based on which one is less stupid is a horrible way of running things.

Nemesis X
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Having to decide on a ruling party based on which one is less stupid is a horrible way of running things.

It's not my fault Obama's administration led me to that belief and made me shift toward Republican.

BlackZero30x
The Democrats and The Republicans are both to blame if you ask me. No budging on either side to meet half way on anything. If they could have worked together and had the peoples best interests in mind...everyone would be a lot better off. I may be wrong but can foresee this shutdown going on for a long time.

Nemesis X
If only this were the '60s. Something like this would've been solved already.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So the 800,000 or so people on furlough is a good thing because Obama isn't talking about Syria now...


Right.

Whence cometh the 800,000 figure?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by dadudemon
Whence cometh the 800,000 figure? Internet.

red g jacks
it seems wrong to protest the budget on the basis of a law that you don't like that was passed through the proper channels. i don't believe both sides are equally to blame. maybe obama is being stubborn too but at the end of the day why should this kind of behavior be rewarded.

Ushgarak
There is no halfway negotiation point on this- that's a golden mean fallacy. Any delay or alteration to Obamacare as the Republicans are demanding is a Republican victory. Their tactic is to make Obama look unreasonable by not negotiating, but the simple fact is that the entire Republican approach is unreasonable in the first place, exploiting a weird loophole in the American system to try and extort changes to a bill resulting from an argument they already lost.

The Republicans are absolutely at fault, will lose this and will take most of the blame. Though to be fair on the Republicans, it's only an insane wing of their party causing this trouble- but that wing has the potential to cripple the party.

Omega Vision
Some people are trying to frame this as the result of mutual partisan bickering, when in reality this is 90-95% the fault of the Republicans, and all you can blame the democrats for is (for once) refusing to be bullied or held hostage. Let's be clear here--republicans talk compromise, but that's the last thing they want, and from the democrat's perspective any kind of "compromise" would be a complete capitulation brought on by what amounts to political terrorism.

I understand republicans oppose Obamacare on principle, but is it really worth ruining the country's economic credibility and putting hundreds of thousands of workers into furlough?

it isn't

dadudemon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Internet.

That number is too low. Many government contractors have been furloughed, too. Just ask my brother in law. smile

dadudemon
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Some people are trying to frame this as the result of mutual partisan bickering, when in reality this is 90-95% the fault of the Republicans, and all you can blame the democrats for is (for once) refusing to be bullied or held hostage. Let's be clear here--republicans talk compromise, but that's the last thing they want, and from the democrat's perspective any kind of "compromise" would be a complete capitulation brought on by what amounts to political terrorism.

I understand republicans oppose Obamacare on principle, but is it really worth ruining the country's economic credibility and putting hundreds of thousands of workers into furlough?

it isn't

I could say that the Democrats are the ones at fault because they are supporting and got AHCA pushed through into law.

Additionally, a majority of Americans in almost every poll do not support the AHCA. Are the Republicans really at fault for taking actions that support what their constituents want or are the Democrats the ones really at fault for continuing down a path that their constituents do not want?

Lastly, the AHCA is NOT what the democrats and Obama promised us. I've talked about this before but the AHCA is a bastard of a piece of legislation that does not go anywhere close to social enough to be a solution.


HOWEVER(if you made it this far into my post, you'll finally get to the good part), it was the Republicans fault, to begin with, for causing this bastardized piece of legislation to pass, to begin with. The democrats had to force through many changes to get what we have, now. So, we are full-circle: it is the Republicans fault we are where we are. None of this would be happening had the Republicans not thrown a hissy fit over the socialistic nature of the originally proposed health care reform.


In fact, had the original ideas (which were not perfect, to be honest) made it through, I would support the AHCA.


The current law, quite frankly, is an Obamination. peaches

Mindship
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I understand republicans oppose Obamacare on principle, but is it really worth ruining the country's economic credibility and putting hundreds of thousands of workers into furlough? I wonder if, what the extreme right fears most, is Obamacare working. This may be what drives their quest for a pyrrhic victory.

focus4chumps
what we are to take from this all is that the democratic process is only to respected when a republican is president. clowning

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by dadudemon
Additionally, a majority of Americans in almost every poll do not support the AHCA. Are the Republicans really at fault for taking actions that support what their constituents want or are the Democrats the ones really at fault for continuing down a path that their constituents do not want?

In almost every poll people show they are afraid of the word "Obamacare," IIRC polls that asked people about the specific parts of the law showed significant support for it.

Ushgarak
The Republicans who pushed for this don;t really care about the effects of a shutdown- as the Tea Party types don't approve of federal presence anyway, they think it is the type of thing that's good for the country.

But in the end, there is only one reason the hardcore faction has pushed for this, even though they knew the Democrats won't give in and it can't possibly work. It's because the likes of Ted Cruz know that being seen to make a stand will be tremendously popular in their home areas and will enable them to gain funding for future political bids, like Senatorial or even Presidential nominations.

Oliver North
http://cdn.billmoyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/benen-chart.jpg



http://billmoyers.com/2013/09/30/shutdown-imminent-how-he-said-she-said-reporting-helped-bring-us-to-the-brink/

Omega Vision
Originally posted by dadudemon
I could say that the Democrats are the ones at fault because they are supporting and got AHCA pushed through into law.

Additionally, a majority of Americans in almost every poll do not support the AHCA. Are the Republicans really at fault for taking actions that support what their constituents want or are the Democrats the ones really at fault for continuing down a path that their constituents do not want?

Lastly, the AHCA is NOT what the democrats and Obama promised us. I've talked about this before but the AHCA is a bastard of a piece of legislation that does not go anywhere close to social enough to be a solution.


HOWEVER(if you made it this far into my post, you'll finally get to the good part), it was the Republicans fault, to begin with, for causing this bastardized piece of legislation to pass, to begin with. The democrats had to force through many changes to get what we have, now. So, we are full-circle: it is the Republicans fault we are where we are. None of this would be happening had the Republicans not thrown a hissy fit over the socialistic nature of the originally proposed health care reform.


In fact, had the original ideas (which were not perfect, to be honest) made it through, I would support the AHCA.


The current law, quite frankly, is an Obamination. peaches
I see your point, sort of, but I believe you're making a mistake in thinking that legislators ought to do what their constituents want in a healthy representative democracy, when I've always thought that healthy representative democracy means the legislators do what's best for the country, even if their constituents disagree. I've always thought that congressmen should ideally know better than the common voter what needs to be done, otherwise why should we elect them?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I see your point, sort of, but I believe you're making a mistake in thinking that legislators ought to do what their constituents want in a healthy representative democracy, when I've always thought that healthy representative democracy means the legislators do what's best for the country, even if their constituents disagree. I've always thought that congressmen should ideally know better than the common voter what needs to be done, otherwise why should we elect them?

That's true to a point. We elect representatives because it would take too long for every single person to express their points. Additionally, most people don't have the time required to dedicate themselves to the process. So we elect people to devote their time and energy into the governing processes. Part of that is also their expertise that they bring.





Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In almost every poll people show they are afraid of the word "Obamacare," IIRC polls that asked people about the specific parts of the law showed significant support for it.

There are some elements of AHCA that are quite good. The number 1 being the destruction of preexisting condition clauses in "compliant" plans.


Here is a great list, I think, for AHCA (except for 6):

http://thanksobamacare.org/

Oliver North
Originally posted by dadudemon
There are some elements of AHCA that are quite good. The number 1 being the destruction of preexisting condition clauses in "compliant" plans.


Here is a great list, I think, for AHCA (except for 6):

http://thanksobamacare.org/

#2 on that list actually gives American youth better coverage (in some respects) than Canadian. I lost coverage from my parent's benefits when I was in my early 20s, and diabetic supplies are expensive as hell.

EDIT: you are against restaurants having to provide the details about what is in the food they serve you?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Oliver North
EDIT: you are against restaurants having to provide the details about what is in the food they serve you?

Yup. I would prefer the businesses do that on their own and not be forced to do so. I'm pretty weird when it comes to forcing businesses to do stupid things. Maybe if there wasn't such variability in the food presented causing the calorie information to be useless (it cannot even be used a a guesstimate unless you go to extremely processed places like McDonald's), I would be more in favor of that.

focus4chumps
Originally posted by dadudemon

Additionally, a majority of Americans in almost every poll do not support the AHCA. Are the Republicans really at fault for taking actions that support what their constituents want or are the Democrats the ones really at fault for continuing down a path that their constituents do not want?


http://tinyurl.com/nk97k27

Oliver North
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yup. I would prefer the businesses do that on their own and not be forced to do so. I'm pretty weird when it comes to forcing businesses to do stupid things. Maybe if there wasn't such variability in the food presented causing the calorie information to be useless (it cannot even be used a a guesstimate unless you go to extremely processed places like McDonald's), I would be more in favor of that.

lol, fair enough, i think that is asinine, but w/e

BackFire
Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is no halfway negotiation point on this- that's a golden mean fallacy. Any delay or alteration to Obamacare as the Republicans are demanding is a Republican victory. Their tactic is to make Obama look unreasonable by not negotiating, but the simple fact is that the entire Republican approach is unreasonable in the first place, exploiting a weird loophole in the American system to try and extort changes to a bill resulting from an argument they already lost.

The Republicans are absolutely at fault, will lose this and will take most of the blame. Though to be fair on the Republicans, it's only an insane wing of their party causing this trouble- but that wing has the potential to cripple the party.

This is 100% correct. Polls are already showing the majority of Americans placing blame on Republicans for this whole travesty.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Oliver North
lol, fair enough, i think that is asinine, but w/e

Which part is asinine? The part where the nutrition facts are nigh useless unless the food you eat is almost perfectly measured out and frozen (and then deep fried and served)?

For that information to be useful, all portions and dishes would have to be prepared with precision. That's just not how it works in the real world. The nutrition facts give people a false idea of what their foods' Caloric content really is.

This is why many body builders, during the on-season, don't 'eat out' and use food scales at home.

Requiring this information is an exercise in nanny-state bullshit. It is also more useless information that does little to nothing to help people make real nutrition decisions.

The often stated whining I hear is, "But it at least gives you a ballpark! Surely that helps you diet plan, better?" No, no it doesn't. In fact, it can lull you into a false sense of exactitude in your meal plans. One man's 4 piece chicken 600 Calorie chicken strip meal is another lady's 4 piece 900 calorie chicken strip meal: same restaurant, same location, same "cook." Won't all of that average itself out? Maybe...sometimes. But if you're on a strict diet that forces you to have to check nutrition facts on everything you eat, maybe you shouldn't be eating out, to begin with?

If you really want specific nutrition fact information, don't rely on the government forcing organizations to provide that information. Also, there are independent groups that do much better jobs of determining nutrition facts.

What I would like to see is a nutrition facts range that gives you a range, capturing 90% (meaning, the range on the nutrition facts would capture 90% of the food offered, in the real world) of food offered, instead of the very misleading nutrition fact cards we get, now.

Also, pretty much every place you can go to that is not a small chain, already provides nutrition facts. This is why I view it as asinine legislation (which is the second thing I found asinine about that requirement).

Nemesis X
I have low income and even I don't want Obamacare. If there's money being forcibly siphoned out of a middle class family's pocket just to give me health insurance, I'd like to give it back to them. I'm not a thief.

Symmetric Chaos
So we'll put you down for "Doesn't understand the law." then?

Nemesis X
I know we already take money from eachother when it comes to paying taxes but Obamacare I believe is really pushing it.

Oliver North
-BTbYetQfWU

not all relevant, but the part that is, is wonderful big grin

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Nemesis X
I know we already take money from eachother when it comes to paying taxes but Obamacare I believe is really pushing it. If there's one thing that I think taxation should be spent on, it's the health of the people.

Bardock42
I hope this facilitates a change that make the Republican party go the way of the dodo.

Or at least fundamentally change again, as it has before.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Nemesis X
I know we already take money from eachother when it comes to paying taxes but Obamacare I believe is really pushing it.
#myopicgripes

Nephthys
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If there's one thing that I think taxation should be spent on, it's the health of the people.

thumb up

Doesn't America spend about 700 billion on the military and not even close to that on health care? Yeah it sure does suck that they're taking more money for the latter, huh?

Nemesis X
What if the people in question that "need" this Obamacare already have health care? It's so pointless unless that bill is helping the homeless.

Newjak
Originally posted by Bardock42
I hope this facilitates a change that make the Republican party go the way of the dodo.

Or at least fundamentally change again, as it has before. I wouldn't mind keeping the moderate Republicans around but yeah I want the extremist ones gone.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Nemesis X
What if the people in question that "need" this Obamacare already have health care? It's so pointless unless that bill is helping the homeless.
Pretty sure it depends on whether your existing coverage is equal to or better than coverage Obamacare would give you.

For instance, I have tricare from my dad, which is superior (I believe) to the AHC healthcare, so until I turn 26 I don't need to worry about it.

If people "need" the AHC healthcare, then by definition their existing healthcare is crap.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nephthys
thumb up

Doesn't America spend about 700 billion on the military and not even close to that on health care? Yeah it sure does suck that they're taking more money for the latter, huh?

If you count Medicare and Medicaid the US spends more on health care than anything but Social Security.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Nemesis X
What if the people in question that "need" this Obamacare already have health care? It's so pointless unless that bill is helping the homeless. Then there's a flaw with the entire system. Denying a huge chunk this new coverage so as to not to inconvenience those who already do is stupid. And pretty f*cking cruel. Ideally, Obamacare is a stepping stone to universal health coverage, insurance and insurance companies be damned.

focus4chumps
herp derp plenty of blame on both sides *fart*

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u561/focus4chumps/demands.jpg

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is no halfway negotiation point on this- that's a golden mean fallacy. Any delay or alteration to Obamacare as the Republicans are demanding is a Republican victory. Their tactic is to make Obama look unreasonable by not negotiating, but the simple fact is that the entire Republican approach is unreasonable in the first place, exploiting a weird loophole in the American system to try and extort changes to a bill resulting from an argument they already lost.

The Republicans are absolutely at fault, will lose this and will take most of the blame. Though to be fair on the Republicans, it's only an insane wing of their party causing this trouble- but that wing has the potential to cripple the party.

^ I actually agree with you for once here. This is spot-on.



Absolutely, Lucien. As it is, the US of A spends more money than anyone else on healthcare, which is inexcusable, and this rhetoric that any form of socialized medicine is robbery is ridiculous. When someone goes into the ER and can't pay, we all end up paying. Similarly, when someone drives uninsured and causes a wreck, all our premiums go up. I'm not sure why people assume that they are islands without financial support from others when it comes to healthcare and when we all get benefits in the form of energy bill subsidies, school financial aids and grants, and public taxation to provide education for all children in the nation.

No person has evolved into a middle class or high class "success story" without living in the same infrastructure that supports us all. Oh god, I'm on a soapbox. Hold on a second, let me get down from here.



As of 2011, WHO noted that we spend close to 18% of GDP in healthcare as it is now. Obamacare, which is as noted not even close to its intended form at this point due to concessions, isn't available for anything but speculations from either party, which range from 1.2% GDP to ABSOLUTE ANARCHY OMG. It's unclear how much of either figure includes out-of-pocket expenditures or self-pay, but I imagine the WHO's estimate likely includes this as it's pretty much an argument against our current medical set up. Obamacare's "market system website thing with fines for individuals but not businesses" is something else entirely, and not this socialized monster the far right keeps talking about.

I'd like to point out something astute from Jon Steward: that some Republicans are calling ObamaCare the worst law in the history of mankind (not even just the US), and we have a track record which includes slavery and Jim Crow laws. Bravo, sir.

Military spending, strictly on military ranges from 2.2% to close to 5% on most major sources over the last ten years, but the adjacent departments, contractors, etc. that surround the proper military likely increase this by quite a bit. It's harder to get an accurate figure on just what counts since some figures seem ridiculously low; for example, we outspend any other country, and some countries in the top ten in groups, but somehow fail to break double digits of our GDP in most sources Google readily provides. I might look more into both but at the moment I'm on entirely too much caffeine to sit through all of the sources to win this one facet of an argument.

Also, about the shutdown...

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/H/5/6/grew-up-to-be-republican.jpg
It's so cute when they grow up and then throw tantrums because they can't override a law that was passed and survived multiple attempts to kill it before it became effective. This would be like Kirstie Alley losing Dancing with the Stars and then shutting the whole thing down next season until the judges negotiated by accepting her unconditional terms. Wait, no, that's just stupid and unreasonable.

focus4chumps
Originally posted by Stealth Moose

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/H/5/6/grew-up-to-be-republican.jpg
perfect metaphor

dadudemon
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/H/5/6/grew-up-to-be-republican.jpg

thumb up

I was on reddit when that image meme was posted. Are you a redditor, as well? If so, I am dadudemon there, too.

Stealth Moose
Nope. Just have impressive Google-Fu.

Oliver North
Worst impact of the shutdown so far? Stewart and Colbert have been scraping the bottom of the bucket no expression

Supra
Originally posted by Nemesis X
These democrats amuse me. Ever since the shutdown happened, they've been throwing whatever bullshit they can pick up at the republicans to make them look bad. One of them is the longer the government is inactive, republicans threaten the safety of children who are cancer patients and the republicans respond to that by passing a bill that will help said children but now the stupid dems want to abolish it. WTF? haermm

Brother Im right with you on this

Dolos
Lol I tried to post a meme but I think it'd break the rules cause it has the words ***** and **** in it.

Stealth Moose
I don't think anyone polices this place enough for you to get caught.

Dolos
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't think anyone polices this place enough for you to get caught. That's awesome!

I'm pretty paranoid lately, about one of these days I'm going to do or say something, it's good to have some freedom here.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Dolos
That's awesome!

I'm pretty paranoid lately, about one of these days I'm going to do or say something, it's good to have some freedom here.

I've been gone for months, but even I can tell a difference in the mod activity here. Not counting Raz' invisibility, the only mod I've seen posting so far is Ush who was always fairly active.

Ush might warn/ban you if you go too far, but considering how big this place is, it might be shocking if he even notices one thread out of a hundred or so new every day.

Dolos
How about I shut down my checkbook until I agree that I should taxes?

mad

dadudemon
Originally posted by tsilamini
EDIT: you are against restaurants having to provide the details about what is in the food they serve you?

It turns out that providing nutrition facts do not cause people to make healthy choices.

http://www.universityherald.com/articles/3958/20130720/mcdonalds-calorie-counters-cause-consumers-make-healthier-meal-choices.htm

Lord Lucien
Oh shit, did you guys hear the government shut down?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh shit, did you guys hear the government shut down?

But not long enough. Shut the fed down!

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.