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This is an all out fight to the death, anything goes, no restrictions.

Both individuals are pulled by the force out of their respective time lines, and put into the middle of space aboard a giant space cruiser. The fight starts at the hanger bay of the battle ship, any and all powers they have at their disposal are allowed.

Scenario 1: ROTS Sidious
Scenario 2: ROTJ Sidious
Scenario 3: DE Sidious

Note: Neither has knowledge on the others abilities or who they are, both are blood lusted to kill the other at all cost.

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/5/5b/Giga_Drain_IV.png

Although a more accurate image would have it one-shot it.

by the logic both of you are using, Sidious also can one-shot Nihilus.

Nihilus is too powerful for that imo.

um, and Sidious isn't? If Nihilus was so powerful, he'd keep his hunger in check. Kinda like how Sora Bulq "let Vaapad master him." Sidious could blitz with his lightsaber, he could (easily) overwhelm him with lightning, he can conceal his connection to the force altogether, etc. He can conceal himself from Nihilus, catch him off-guard, then kill him. Just one of the many possibilities

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
by the logic both of you are using, Sidious also can one-shot Nihilus.

Yeah. It really just depends on who one-shots the other first.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
um, and Sidious isn't?

Sidious is very powerful, yes. But not to the degree that he can one-shot a being of Nihilus' might imo.

Yes, so we both agree that one wouldn't necessarily one-shot the other?

No. Nihilus can one-shot Sidious.

Unless Sidious is a wound in the force, Nihilus can technically "eat" him.

do we even know the extent that Nihilus's draining goes? Hell he couldn't even drain non force-users, which Palpatine could use through concealment to catch Nihilus off-guard.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
do we even know the extent that Nihilus's draining goes? Hell he couldn't even drain non force-users, which Palpatine could use through concealment to catch Nihilus off-guard.

Erm, yes. To the extent it can eat planets. And its stated that it kills every living creature on Katarr so I don't know where you're getting that it doesn't work on non-force sensitives.

Uh yeah, Palpatine can destroy a planet by getting angry. He was incapable of draining mandalore in a combat situation.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Uh yeah, Palpatine can destroy a planet by getting angry. He was incapable of draining mandalore in a combat situation.

No he can't. He didn't drain Mandalore. It doesn't follow that he cannot. He tried to drain the party but got fvcked over by the Exile so obviously he wouldn't try it again. Visas says that if he doesn't find Jedi on Telos he'll just drain the entire planet and orbiting station. Hint: the station's population isn't made up of Jedi.

Can destroy a planet by getting angry? Lol. That's going to work wonders when he's standing face to face against a single enemy, while said enemy drains him. Killer rationalization though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he can't. He didn't drain Mandalore. It doesn't follow that he cannot. He tried to drain the party but got fvcked over by the Exile so obviously he wouldn't try it again. Visas says that if he doesn't find Jedi on Telos he'll just drain the entire planet and orbiting station. Hint: the station's population isn't made up of Jedi.

That's the whole point of the force storm, Palpatine channels his rage and unleashes it as the deadly wormhole that rips the space-time continuum. Isn't palpatine also capable of planet-draining powers, though he is more controlled with the use of such an ability?

No, because Vitiate can drain you right there in then. Palpatine's force storm is nowhere near instantaneous and wouldn't be of much help in a 1 on 1 encounter.

The Force Wormhole has never displayed the ability to destroy a planet or destroy its surface without considerable time.

Not in combat he doesn't.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
No, because Vitiate can drain you right there in then. Palpatine's force storm is nowhere near instantaneous and wouldn't be of much help in a 1 on 1 encounter.

What does vitiate have to do with this? Palpatine could blitz nihilus before the latter can even react, Palpatine most definitely has a good chance of winning.

I meant Nihilus. It's unclear whether Palpatine could blitz Nihilus before Nihilus eats him. The drain is pretty instantaneous.

As is Palpatine's blitz. Palpatine can move at an insanely fast speed.

Sidious knows the technique to block force drain. He taught it to Dooku who used it to activate the Dark Reaper and be safe from its effects. Ulic and Nomi also knew this technique.

Yes, assuming Nihilus just stands there and waiting to get sliced. He has a better chance with his drain than Sidious does by blitzing him.

The Jedi Sidious blitzed were still able to lift their lightsabers and prepare for him before he struck. I see no reason Nihilus won't be able to simply raise his hand and use the attack in the same way.

Because Nihilus is as unknown as Vitiate in terms of lightsaber use? We know from his confrontation with meetra, that his first instinct is to drain his enemy, so I don't see him raising his blade before the confrontation ends. And yes, Sidious does know how to block the force drain technique as well.

Now you're just trying to make things up. Just concede.

Make what up? The Dark reaper is a weapon that drains your opponents of their life energies, like Nihilus. There's a technique that blocks it. Anakin mastered it when he was a padawan to destroy the dark reaper.

um, what? I just don't see how Nihilus is stronger than Vitiate/sidious

Unless you can prove the property's are the same, it's irrelevant. One type of drain isn't equal to another type of drain. Nihlus' drain is otherwordly and unless there's proof that it can be blocked (there isn't), move on.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Because Nihilus is as unknown as Vitiate in terms of lightsaber use? We know from his confrontation with meetra, that his first instinct is to drain his enemy, so I don't see him raising his blade before the confrontation ends. And yes, Sidious does know how to block the force drain technique as well.

Lightsaber? He just has to raise his damn hand. Plus he's used the Force without even gesturing so he could slow Sidious down that way or possibly use the drain without even gesturing.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Make what up? The Dark reaper is a weapon that drains your opponents of their life energies, like Nihilus. There's a technique that blocks it. Anakin mastered it when he was a padawan to destroy the dark reaper.

Oh, and Anakin taught him how to do it too huh?

Actually, it's you who has to prove the types of drain are different. Drain works on the same principles, who or what performs it is irrelevant.

"If Anakin knows how to do it, and Palpatine is more powerful than him, then Palpatine must know how to do it too!"

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, and Anakin taught him how to do it too huh?

Anakin learned it from the spirit of Ulic qel-droma. Dooku learned it from Sidious.

But this is untrue, because Vitiate's drain left the planet without the force, Nihilus' drain just leaves a wound in the force, etc. So looks like the onus is on you, not that it matters in this debate anyways.


Prove it.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Anakin learned it from the spirit of Ulic qel-droma. Dooku learned it from Sidious.

No he didn't.

There are different levels of power for drain, not different methods since they all do the same thing, which is well drain life energies. Vitiate>Nihilus in drain through that ritual of his. And Neph, yes he did.

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I meant that Dooku didn't learn it from Sidious.

But he did. He learned it from Sidious which is why he can activate the Dark Reaper for a while without worrying about getting drained.

"making you immune to the effects of the dark reaper for a short time". Lol. Ergo useless. And also no proof anyone learned it from Sidious.

And Sidious, hell even Dooku only need a short time to shove a lightsaber up Nihilus's a$$.

do you honestly expect the confrontation would be long?

I think you guys should let Gideon debate this. Neither one of you have much of an argument aside from "hope" and inane questions.

Originally posted by The Merchant
But he did. He learned it from Sidious which is why he can activate the Dark Reaper for a while without worrying about getting drained.

Proof?

So Dooku just knows? Even though the Dark Reaper was thought to be destroyed back in the Sith wars? And Sidious has been stated in numerous sources that he learned all force powers.

Oh so now we have to make a ridiculous assumption? That's called reaching. And that last quote is basically your last gasp attempt. Unfortunately, it's been established as hyperbole for years so nice playing. If you really had an argument and weren't trying to use Xtreme's method of dart board throwing, you would have used that hyperbole quote first. Instead, it's becoming quite obvious what's going on.

Actually it's more ridiculous that Dooku out of the blue just so happens to know how to block force drain. And Sidious could do drain too as well.

And Sidious just knows? Even though the Dark Reaper was thought to be destroyed back in the Sith wars?

So no proof then? Good.


The fact is though that the point is moot since theres no indication that the Dark Reaper drains the person as fast as Nihilus' drain does, which is nigh instant. Anakins defense is to draw from the Force to replenish his drained energy, which only works if he still has a connection to the Force. If Nihilus drains his opponent before they can do that then they're fvcked.

Sidious was the one who rediscovered the Dark Reaper on Raxus Prime and activated it. And the Dark Reaper drained armies in an instant.

I think it's ridiculously silly that Sidious would allow Dooku to command a Force-leeching weapon that Dooku could then use against him if Palpatine didn't have an answer for it.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
I think you guys should let Gideon debate this.

Careful: if that happens, the KotOR side has a snowball's chance in hell of winning it.

Sure, if the snowball was the size of yo mamma.

Ouch, sick burn outta nowhere! Dis boi on fiya!

But wouldn't the snowball being bigger be better for the snowball whilst traversing Hades?

Are you implying that your mother is equal to or less than the size of a snowball?

Because I think that would spell ill of our relationship.

Considering that Sidious could block Nihilus's giga-drain in the first place, there's also the little tidbit about all who hear Nihilus's voice die? Sounds pretty retarded to me, but how do you suppose Sidious would counter that?

I thought his voice was just symbolic for his drain?

While I would prefer that theory, speculation<evidence. Even considering that this is the case, Nihilus is pretty powerful. His TK feat of bringing his fleet up from the planet of Malachor is probably the best or among the best we've seen in the mythos.

Still, Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord that ever lived. He's probably not losing, but hey.

Wouldnt nihilus constant and instant aoe drain kill sidious regardless of if, and that is a very big if, he has resistance to nihilus drain or not?

I always thought that nihilus drain was different then any othe type of drain, as he was a wound in the force and thus consumed "energy" into nothingness. Where as all other types of drain just converted energy.

Furthermore since he is a wound in the force doesnt that mean he negates all force powers used against him or in his vicinity, such as lightening, tk, and individuals using the force to buff their own physical attributes such as speed and strength?

I mean even if sidious could resist his drain, since nihilus never stops draining and it is constant, and instant wouldnt it pretty much yax sidious to death in seconds? Couple that with the fact that a wound consumes every iota of the force would mean that whatever force sidious is using to resist, empower himself, would be consume as well making his resistance non existant.

Furthermore while nihilus is passively draining everything, he could be using his unrivaled TK to crush sidious into a ball. Sidious would be using his powers to resist (if even could in the first place), while the very force hes using to resist is being consumed, and while this is going on passively nihilus can use his unmatched tk to just outright kill sidious or keep him at bay long enough for his drain to do so.

I meam what could sidious do to even hurt nihilus? Force powers dont work on a wound, he cant get close to saber fight due to the tk, amd even if he could what is he going to do? Nihilus is just empty armor, there is nothing to even kill.

Just my theory on it

1. Sidious can honestly stop Nihilus's Force Drain, probably. Unless your theory about Nihilus's power being different from Drain is correct.

2. No, he does not negate any force powers.

3. Dark Reaper can't yax him. Why could Nihilus's?

4. I doubt Nihilus could just crush him with TK. In fact, I'm just going to confirm that he can't.

5. The Exile's lightsaber worked just fine.

Well i would think the exile was able to harm him bc he was also a wound.

Am i incorrect in that wounds cannot be harmed by the force bc they consume it at all times?

Nihilus tk does seem the most powerful according to feats, why is it he wouldnt be able to crush sidious when it is shown that when a user is stronger in the force than another user that they can fling them around and crush them? Ie sidious vs maul brothers?

This is complicated and the result depends on a few variables.

Nihilus has the power to strip Sidious in all 3 stages before Sidious can think after directly after Force draining Katarr.

Sidious could probably speed blitz Nihilus at other times, and DE Sidious is far more esoterically inclined than Nihilus ever was, but still no wound. He performed experiments with mass Force drain, he was a nexus of Dark Energies in ROTJ and DE, but still no wound so Nihilus still has the upperhand per Force drain. However, DE Sidious may have a few tricks up his sleeve. Sidious learned of Force drain during his tutelage as a Sith Lord under Plagueis, but it would be of little use. Sidious can take Nihilus out fastest as either a youthful clone or in ROTS, but he'd be best in TPM when his skills in combat were at their sharpest.

So, in summary, it depends on how much excess Force energy Nihilus has kept from his "feeding sessions", how much absorbed Force Nihilus has at his disposal, at the time of this battle. The same would be true for Vitiate.

Sidious would perhaps fair best after experimenting with Force drain on Byss, even if he is old and decrepit clone, he still has far more "stolen Force" at his disposal at that point in DE than at any other point in his life, and perhaps enough to make his physical stats go way up ensuring a speed blitz unless this is Nihilus right after Katarr.

All the Emperor needs to trigger a Force storm is "mere thought and inclination" (The Essential Guide to the Force).

More importantly, between Dooku's excavation of the Dark Reaper and Palpatine's own prodigious demonstrations of a Force drain, it's silly to think he's incapable of wielding it against a single opponent.

I think it comes down to who's quicker on the draw and it can be reasonably inferred that Palpatine's arsenal is much wider than Nihilus's. At worst, I think it's a stalemate.

Didn't Sidious instruct Dooku how to handle the Dark Reaper right before the latter did so?

It's implied by a Fact File but never outright confirmed. Though, again, the idea that Sidious would hand Dooku a superweapon of that magnitude without some form of protection or redress from the Count's treachery is... silly.

If Sidious can successfully defend himself from Drain, he's got it in the bag.

Dooku never expressed a desire to betray Sidious tho.

Sidious instructed Dooku to kill Ventress for exactly that reason though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku never expressed a desire to betray Sidious tho.

He emphatically expresses a desire to betray Sidious in the Clone Wars episode "Monster."

And Dave Filoni confirmed it before the release of the TCW movie.

Of did he? My mistake, I guess the RotS novel is now even MORE non-canon.

Not really. There's some time between Dark Rendezvous, LOE, ROTS and Witches of the Mist. Plenty of time for Dooku to be thoroughly cowed by Sidious.

No. Non-canon.

Even if Sidious can resist (which there is no proof to demonstrate that Nihilus drain is the same as force drain which anyone can use), how long can he resist? Nihilus can just instantly and constantly drain Sidious, no matter how much sidious resist it is going to heavily tax him to defend himself constantly at all times.

Nihilus could also be using his unrivaled TK against Sidious to either kill him, or keep him at bay until his drain pierces his defenses (that is if sidious can even resist).

I notice quite a few people keep saying Sidious lightning or speed will win him the match, yet Nihilus is also going to have force speed so the difference between the two wont be big. Furthermore Coulnd't Nihilus just drain and consume the force lightning since it is made out of the force, and that is what Nihilus "Eats"?

Sidious in all 3

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All the Emperor needs to trigger a Force storm is "mere thought and inclination" (The Essential Guide to the Force).

More importantly, between Dooku's excavation of the Dark Reaper and Palpatine's own prodigious demonstrations of a Force drain, it's silly to think he's incapable of wielding it against a single opponent.

I think it comes down to who's quicker on the draw and it can be reasonably inferred that Palpatine's arsenal is much wider than Nihilus's. At worst, I think it's a stalemate.

One cannot actually drain a wound. Nihilus tried that on Meetra.

Originally posted by Dolos
One cannot actually drain a wound. Nihilus tried that on Meetra.

A "Wound of the Force". It's so stupid. In that way, Sidious is a "Black Hole of the Force", Dooku is "Centrum of the Universe", Mace is "Superconducting Loop" and Yoda is "Fountain of the Light". Yuppi!

Well, as Nyrriss showed, force lightning and lighstaber in hand is enough against that "wound".

Theres nothing stupid about the concept and that isn't a comparison. Those are simply metaphors, whereas Meetra's status as a Force Wound is an actual attribute she possesses and is the basis for her various abilities. Those are descriptions, hers something that actually affects herself and those around her, like Cognus' ability to weaken Force users.

Yoda doesn't have special "Fountain" powers!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing stupid about the concept

http://replygif.net/i/926.gif

umad Temp?

What is so stupid about it? The Force is a universal energy field. It can be tainted by the darkside in places, it only stands to reason that likewise there can be places where it can be tainted to the point of becoming "wounded". All life in the galaxy is interconnected and pain and death is transmited through it and so when a significant number of lives are lost, it makes sense for the Force to sustain a localized injury much like someone who who had lost a limb. "Absenses" in the Force also make sense based on the way the Force works.

Furthermore the concept that mass death and war damages the Force is one thats thematically strong and compelling imo. Life breathes the Force, makes it grow. That death would affect it strongly showcases just how damaging these conflicts are.

Originally posted by Zett
Well, as Nyrriss showed, force lightning and lighstaber in hand is enough against that "wound".

For the most part. Depends on how much Force energy Nihilus has at his disposal. Think of Galactus, he's far more dangerous when fully fed. Is this a hungry Nihilus? A fully fed Nihilus would be considered Nihilus after Katarr - Sidious doesn't really have a chance against that.

However, Vitiate seconds after the months-long ritual at Nathema was finished would spank a fully fed Nihilus like a baby.

I'm seething with rage, bro.



War does indeed damage the Force, tainting it and darkening it. That's textbook PT. But the idea that a Force "wound" or "absence" using the Force is hilarious. Not to mention using the Force in an allegedly spectacular and masterful level. The entire concept self-destructs because Avellone abandoned subtlety for the Karpyshyn school of storytelling. Nihilus is great in theory and laughable in execution.

u mad.

It isn't hilarious because the Exile and Nihilus reestablished their connection through feeding on others, not through their own connection to it. And in the Exiles case it was Kreia who forced that on her.

The very idea that you would sully Avellone with a Karpyshan comparison is breathtaking. His writing is more subtle that you can grasp.

Originally posted by Nephthys
u mad.

I told you, I'm seething. Seething.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't hilarious because the Exile and Nihilus reestablished their connection through feeding on others, not through their own connection to it. And in the Exiles case it was Kreia who forced that on her.

Which is a terrible rationalization. Star Wars is replete with them, even by way of talented writers.

Hell, Luceno came up with the dumb line in Plagueis that a Sith Lord has to be on the receiving end of Sith lightning to properly wield it in the future.

When I eat venison, I don't grow antlers. The idea that Nihilus and the Exile can wield the Force after "eating" it in others is pretty dumb. But then the whole thing is, from start to finish.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The very idea that you would sully Avellone with a Karpyshan comparison is breathtaking. His writing is more subtle that you can grasp.

Yes LOL NOM NOM BYE BYE PLANETS is low-key. Not really. It's just that you and Z. confuse low, creepy verbose speech with profound subtlety.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Well i would think the exile was able to harm him bc he was also a wound.

Am i incorrect in that wounds cannot be harmed by the force bc they consume it at all times?

Nihilus tk does seem the most powerful according to feats, why is it he wouldnt be able to crush sidious when it is shown that when a user is stronger in the force than another user that they can fling them around and crush them? Ie sidious vs maul brothers?

1. Nah, the only thing caused by the Exile being a wound is Nihilus's inability to drain her, as she herself has energy to drain. She draws it all from others, in a complicated sort of way.

2. Yeah, you are.

3. Sidious's TK feats aren't so far off from Nihilus's that he'd be ragdolled by the latter.

I think most of the drained energy that Nihilus absorbs is used up to keep him from vanishing away. Unless people think he can conjure up a force push powerful enough to shatter a planet. Same thing with how Vitiate and how most of Nathema's energy was used to make him immortal. They do get an increase in power but not a lot. And Nihilus's TK feat happened on Malachor V, which was a DS nexus. Not to mention that when Nihilus died the Ravager nor the fleet were instantly destroyed, in fact the Mandos had to blow Ravager up via a bomb.

Originally posted by The Merchant
They do get an increase in power but not a lot.

Except that both are stated to be by a lot. Vitiates ritual increased his power 'vastly' (and he gets stronger all the time) and Kreia and Visas fellate Nihilus power quite extensively.

Originally posted by The Merchant
And Nihilus's TK feat happened on Malachor V, which was a DS nexus.

Which doesn't matter since he lifted the thing into orbit and nexus' do not extend that far up. He would still have to lift it out of the atmosphere by himself surely. Besides which the DS nexus is counterbalanced by the MSG increasing gravity.

Plus I highly doubt Malachor can make you powerful enough to lift a capital ship unless you were already prodigiously powerful, above pretty much everyone anyway. Even if it doubled his power its a feat above near all of the mythos in terms of TK. And this was before he started eating planets.....

I don't see why it is difficult for others to admit that Sidious would most likely die in combat with Nihilus. Nihilus seems to be one of the greatest and most lethal individuals when it come to a one on one fight.

Sidious is powerful, but a great deal of his power comes from his ability to command an empire, and his intellect as well as his ability to conjue up large AOE sith spells that take time to bear their effect.

I would think that Nihilus very presence would be weakening Sidious every second they are in proximity of one another.

What ever force powers, as well as Sidious connection to the force, would be weakening every second thus Sidious resistance to being drained would also be weakenning. This also means Sidious force speed and strength would be constantly weakening.

It would only be a matter of time until Nihilus breaks through sidious's constantly weakening resistance, and outrights drains him to death.

Furthermore I agree that Nihilus TK feat is the greatest TK feat in all the mythos of SW, unless someone else can show one? The TK nihilus displayed far outclasses anything Sidiious has ever displayed, thus it doesn't seem illogical to postulate that Nihilus could ragdoll Sidious to death. Nihilus has lifted an entire star fleet from the surface of a planet into space purely upon his own power, he then moved it through space by his own will and held it together, an entire fleet. That amount of TK power being focused entirely upon Sidious would likely instantly kill him, combined with his Wound Aura that eats the Force itself every second would make Sidious's attempt to resist weaker every second.

Just my two cents on it.

http://cdn.chud.com/a/a5/900x900px-LL-a514bf4b_clapping.gif

Sidious kills Nihilus in 1second. He can block his force drain then pwn him.... Nihilus has ZERO saber skills.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I don't see why it is difficult for others to admit that Sidious would most likely die in combat with Nihilus. Nihilus seems to be one of the greatest and most lethal individuals when it come to a one on one fight.

Sidious is powerful, but a great deal of his power comes from his ability to command an empire, and his intellect as well as his ability to conjue up large AOE sith spells that take time to bear their effect.

I would think that Nihilus very presence would be weakening Sidious every second they are in proximity of one another.

What ever force powers, as well as Sidious connection to the force, would be weakening every second thus Sidious resistance to being drained would also be weakenning. This also means Sidious force speed and strength would be constantly weakening.

It would only be a matter of time until Nihilus breaks through sidious's constantly weakening resistance, and outrights drains him to death.

Furthermore I agree that Nihilus TK feat is the greatest TK feat in all the mythos of SW, unless someone else can show one? The TK nihilus displayed far outclasses anything Sidiious has ever displayed, thus it doesn't seem illogical to postulate that Nihilus could ragdoll Sidious to death. Nihilus has lifted an entire star fleet from the surface of a planet into space purely upon his own power, he then moved it through space by his own will and held it together, an entire fleet. That amount of TK power being focused entirely upon Sidious would likely instantly kill him, combined with his Wound Aura that eats the Force itself every second would make Sidious's attempt to resist weaker every second.

Just my two cents on it.

1. Because he's the confirmed most powerful Sith Lord in Galactic history according to multiple sourcebooks, encyclopedias, novels, and George Lucas himself?

2. His Area of Effect abilities are in practicality the same mechanic as Force Drain. I'm not quite sure on the mechanic of Force Drain resistance, but I think it had to do with one drawing in life energies to replenish what was being lost as it happened. I know you'll probably say that Nihilus will drain him too fast to do this--But remember that Sidious could handle the Dark Reaper, of which the drain could instantaneously wipe out armies. He isn't siphoning Sidious.

3. Nihilus only lifted a single vessel--The Ravanger, not his entire fleet. And he didn't hold it together with the Force--As it still held together a while after his death (it had to be blown up by Mandalorian explosives). Also, while this indeed is among the best--if not the best TK feat in the mythos, it was done on the most powerful Dark Side Nexus in Star Wars canon. This means Nihilus was amped extraordinarily. Normally he wouldn't be able to commit a feat of this measure. As for Sidious's ability, well, Darth Vader was capable of bringing down a Cathedral with his Telekinesis, and he was 20% less powerful than Palpatine. Considering the power of these characters, that's a pretty considerable gap. Even if Nihilus's TK surpassed Sidious, it wouldn't be by so much that he could break through Sidious's Force Defenses and crush his body. That's just silly.

So, you've bet two cents. I am coming to retrieve.

Actually I think a loading screen says Nihilus pulled a 'fleet' from Malachor.

Valid points NewGuy, However I have a few points I would like to discuss with you.

The first is that even though Sidious may have discovered the reaper machine that performs a feat similar to force drain, there are several factors to keep in mind.

The first is that the reaper machine has shown to be able to drain entire armies, this is impressive but not on the same scale as what Nihilus has demonstrated.

Nihilus has shown to be able to consume/force drain entire worlds in an instant, I would say that this far outclasses what the reaper machine can do. Thus to assume that just because Sidious can resist the reaper machine which operates an army scale, he can also resist Nihilus drain which operates on a global scale, seems presumptuous and dangerous inaccurate. It would be akin to saying bullet proof glass that can resist rounds up to a certain MM, can resist a tank shell being fired at it.

Even though Sidious could attempt to draw in life energies to replenish what is being drained from him, there are several things to consider.

1. Could Sidious drain enough life energy from the cold void of space around him to outpace the global unrivaled force drain that Nihilus will be focusing purely upon Sidious?

2. Will Sidious be able to use the force to pull in more force energy into him to replenish what is being drained from him, while Nihilus Wound Aura is constantly devouring the force itself and Sidious connection to the force? IE The very force energy sidious will be trying to pull into himself to save himself will also be consumed by Nihilus while Sidious own energy is being drained.

This is because unlike the reaper machine, Nihilus will be focusing global scale Force drain on Sidious, and unlike the reaper machine Nihilus has the Wound Aura Effect that is devouring the force itself. This means Sidious will have no Force life energy outside of himself to pull into himself to replenish what is being drained from him. It also means Sidious own force energy is going to be devoured by two sources simultaneously,
1. The global scale force drain
2. The Wound Effect which devours all Force energy around Nihilus.

Finally there is the concern that no matter how fast people believe Sidious to be, he is not going to be that fast. This is simply due to the fact that Nihilus Wound Aura will be devouring the very Force Energy that Sidious is using to amplify his speed.

Nihilus in my opinion could use his TK (which is the strongest in the entire mythos going by feats), and simply hold Sidious at bay. The Wound Aura is going to devour the Force energy in and around Sidious, weakening him to the point where Nihilus will be able to Ragdoll sidious to death with his TK, or force drain Sidious to death due to Sidious having no Force energy to resist it.

1. How does this change anything? The AoE of Nihilus's power does not change the effect of his abilities. Against a single opponent, his drain is no different than the Dark Reapers. And considering that he and Dooku have no problem handling the reaper, I don't see how Nihilus is any different.

2. Again, being a wound in the Force doesn't negate enemy Force Powers. Pretty sure you just made that up, or you heard it from somebody that made it up.

Allow me to clarify New Guy, in regards to the wound in the force negating force powers.

Nihilus being a wound in the force, actively and constantly devours the very force itself within radius of him. It does not mean he is immune to all force powers, but in the context I spoke it would be taking an effect against Sidious.

In order for Sidious to counter the drain, he must pull in more Force energy that is outside of himself into himself in order to avoid being emptied of all life forced and subsequently killed.

Nihilus will be constantly force draining him, forcing Sidious to constantly pull more force energy into himself. However the Force Wound Aura will be devouring all the Force/Life energy around them, thus eliminating any external force energy for Sidious to pull into himself.

Furthermore The Wound effect constantly devours all force energy both inside and outside of individuals/masses, thus the force energy that Sidious is using to amplify his speed and physical abilities would constantly be devoured by the Wound Aura.

Sidious will at all times be under assault from two forms of siphoning, the first is Nihilus unmatched Force Drain, the second is Nihilus Force Wound Aura.

The Third is that the first two happen constantly and passively on Nihilus part, this allows Nihilus to actively use his TK against
Sidious simultaneously.

I do not see Sidious resisting or blocking TK that is able to lift an entire Star Fleet which included the largest ship in the mythos, as well as move the entire fleet through space, and create an atmosphere for his mind controlled followers.

It would be akin to the TK sidious used against the Maul brothers, it outclassed them and threw them around like rag dolls even though the maul brothers had TK of their own.

When one of the contestants TK eclipses the others to such an extreme degree, it is as if the weaker one doesn't have TK at all to resist.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that both are stated to be by a lot. Vitiates ritual increased his power 'vastly' (and he gets stronger all the time) and Kreia and Visas fellate Nihilus power quite extensively.



Which doesn't matter since he lifted the thing into orbit and nexus' do not extend that far up. He would still have to lift it out of the atmosphere by himself surely. Besides which the DS nexus is counterbalanced by the MSG increasing gravity.

Plus I highly doubt Malachor can make you powerful enough to lift a capital ship unless you were already prodigiously powerful, above pretty much everyone anyway. Even if it doubled his power its a feat above near all of the mythos in terms of TK. And this was before he started eating planets.....

Let me make myself more clear. When I say not that much powerful I mean that Nihilus nor Vitiate would be able to destroy a planet with say a Force Push. Most of the energy goes to sustain their current condition, although compared to normal force users yet it is vastly more powerful.

Malachor is one of the most powerful DS nexus's ever to the point that it could have been used to kill everything in the Galaxy. And I doubt the Mass Shadows were able to overcome DS energies that are on the planetary scale. And Nihilus eats planets to keep himself from dying, for all we know the start of his condition he was stronger and can at best regain that potential for a moment. And it's not like he is constantly keeping it together, as seen by the Mandos blowing up the ship.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What is so stupid about it?

The fact that these wounds of the force still have access to the force with no repercussions.

They've created a new concept of the force, made it irrelevant by reintroducing force bonds and then using it as a convenient plot device in order to make Meetra the only one who can stop these foes.

KOTOR 2 was amazing I thought but the force wound stuff sucked.

Actually the concept of a Force Wound was around before Kotor 2. Wookieepedia credits its first appearance as being in the ANH novel, which is almot 30 years before Kotor 2.

Saying theres no repercussions is dumb, since it causes a ton of shit. One thing thats emphasised right from the start is that the Exile is kind of a freak and really weird things are happening with her. Shes basically a Jedi-version of an eldrich abomination. Same with Nihilus and the way he's consumed by his ability. No repercussions my ass.

And theres nothing convenient about it. Its a central part of the game and figuring stuff about it out and how it all works is one of the driving mysteries of the plot. In fact finding out what happened to you and eerything to do with Wounds is basically the whole plot. Its woven into much of the storyline.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually the concept of a Force Wound was around before Kotor 2. Wookieepedia credits its first appearance as being in the ANH novel, which is almot 30 years before Kotor 2.

Right, as a wound in the force caused by the deaths of billions of people. This wound did not manifest in a Jedi and you know it. C'mon that's a reach.



Well yes, any freak accident would have "weird things" happen to them. Except these "weird" things were negated by force bonds and the only times these wounds had any affect on the story was a shield against the Triumvirate.

I'll clarify though. The original concept of a force wound is not stupid. What was stupid is how it was used in this game.

Point still stands, Sidious has no answer for the Wound Aura Effect.

The Wound Aura will be devouring the force all around Sidious and inside of sidious, thus denying Sidious any counter to force drain.

As the only way to counter force drain is to suck in more force energy that is outside of you to replace the energy that is drained from inside of you.

But the wound effect will be devouring all of the force energy everywhere around them. This combined with Nihilus TK that lifted an entire star fleet from the surface of a world, through the atmosphere and gravitational pull, is unmatched.

And yes it was a fleet, not a single ship, it states on the loading screen he pulled an entire star fleet.

Originally posted by Based
Right, as a wound in the force caused by the deaths of billions of people. This wound did not manifest in a Jedi and you know it. C'mon that's a reach.

Personally I don't see the distinction.

Originally posted by Based
Well yes, any freak accident would have "weird things" happen to them. Except these "weird" things were negated by force bonds and the only times these wounds had any affect on the story was a shield against the Triumvirate.

I'll clarify though. The original concept of a force wound is not stupid. What was stupid is how it was used in this game.

No I mean the Exile has weird things about her. Her mysterious reconnection to the Force for one thing. On Telos theres parts where you get into fights and Atton freaks out because his body moved without him wanting to do anything, indicating you're dominating his will somehow. The Jedi Council talks about you having a strange presence in the Force, as if you were already dead. The Exile learns things at an accelerated rate. These little things and others are all pieces of the mystery that builds up over the game. And no, the Wounds have huge effects on the story AND are hugely related to Force bonds. Force bonds and wounds are the twin focuses for the entire game. You just have to engage with the plot to parse this.

You mean how its used masterfully? Your definition of dumb must be different than mine.

I have mixed views on this.

Here are a few assumptions that I make about this:

1) Nihilus' Force Drain is fast and devastating.
2) While Vitiate's feat on Nathema and Sidious' feat on Byss may be even more devastating, those took a lot more time to conjure compared to Nihilus' feat.

Here's my interpretation of Nihilus:

For the most part, Sidious outclasses Nihilus (sabers, knowledge of the force, etc), but I'm not sure if that would actually matter.

I don't think people like Vitiate or Sidious can match the killing speed of Nihilus' Force Drain. I think they would have to become Nihilus in order to do that. And knowing that the Sith pride themselves on being masters of the force, rather than servants, I don't think Vitiate or Sidious would ever choose to take their force drain to that level and become slaves to their hunger.

As for who would win:

The first post states that neither has knowledge about the other. I think this gives Nihilus an advantage. I think you have to know what Nihilus is and be prepared for him to stand a chance. This is somewhat a stretch, but look at how well Savage did against his opponents when they weren't used to him. I think Nihilus has that same edge, just magnitudes even more so.

If Sidious knew about Nihilus and was prepared for him, I'm sure Sidious could come up with something and defeat him. Kreia managed to come up with something, so I'm sure Sidious wouldn't have a problem.

One thing that makes me somewhat doubt Nihilus' power though, is that he teamed up with Sion to take on Kreia. Was he just biding his time or did he actually need Sion to overthrow Kreia? I don't remember the exact details. Kreia said that Nihilus did not care for the Sith teachings, so why would he need Sion as an apprentice? It's been a while since I played KotOR2 so I have forgotten a lot.

Originally posted by red8
I have mixed views on this.

Here are a few assumptions that I make about this:

1) Nihilus' Force Drain is fast and devastating.
2) While Vitiate's feat on Nathema and Sidious' feat on Byss may be even more devastating, those took a lot more time to conjure compared to Nihilus' feat.

Here's my interpretation of Nihilus:

For the most part, Sidious outclasses Nihilus (sabers, knowledge of the force, etc), but I'm not sure if that would actually matter.

I don't think people like Vitiate or Sidious can match the killing speed of Nihilus' Force Drain.
Hmm, so the question should be: Is Nihilus faster than Sidious?

Sidious, Dooku, and Anakin could match the killing speed of the Dark Reaper, which was akin to Nihilus's.

This is based on...?

The fact that the Dark Reaper and Nihilus's powers with drain are practically identical?

Practically? Unless you prove they're identical, there's nothing to discuss. It was also stated that Anakin could combat the effects of the Dark Reaper for a short time.

A short time is, given his speed, more than enough for him to successfully kill Nihilus.

There's no guarantee that Nihilus' drain is the same as the Dark Reaper's, so there's no proof he can combat it. Therefore, speed doesn't matter here.

Good to see you're still schizophrenic on all things Sidious, Beefy.

Prove his drain is different.

His drain works through Force bonds, which I'm fairly sure the Reaper doesn't utilise. Its also faster and has different physical properties i.e. Nihilus' drain looks like black smoke.

It doesn't matter. The sources say Anakin is immune to the "life draining effects" of the Reaper.

Not sure why he wouldn't be able to resist Nihilus's. In fact, with Avellone's commentary about the technique and the origins of the Dark Reaper, it seems to be for all intents and purposes an answer to the technique's drawbacks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His drain works through Force bonds, which I'm fairly sure the Reaper doesn't utilise. Its also faster and has different physical properties i.e. Nihilus' drain looks like black smoke.

Yoda blocks Sidious's blue lightning in ROTS. Sidious uses purple lightning in TFU. Prove Yoda can block purple lightning.

Maybe he can't????

Because Sidious has grown more powerful in 20 years or because of a crippling weakness to certain shades on the color wheel?

That would be proving a negative. You have to prove all drains are identical.


Since we're still discussing ROTS Sidious, I assume you're experiencing an early onset of Alzheimers.


The source actually says Anakin can block it for a short time.

No, the OP says all three Sidious's are used here. And nowhere did you specify ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Good to see you're still schizophrenic on all things Sidious, Beefy.

Beefy, translate the nature of your current anti-Sidious crusade. Don't think I haven't noticed.

Day 1: "yeah, Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever"

Day 2: "lol Nihilus pwnz0rz!"

What will day 3 bring me, Beefy?

As I recall, not more than 3-4 days ago I stated that because we're talking about ROTS Sidious and DE Sidious is the most powerful in my mind, there is no contradiction. Add to the fact that just because there is a technique Sidious can't necessarily counter, doesn't mean the other guy is more powerful.

Like I said, early stages of Alzheimer's.

Aaaand again, the OP clearly says three incarnations of Sidious are in play. You nor anyone else ever claimed to be referring just to ROTS!Sidious.

So again, explain your anti-Sidious crusade.

Its hardly an anti-Sidious crusade to say he'd lose. Sidious being the most powerful and Nihilus beating him are not mutually exclusive.

I've repeatedly made the claim that I'm talking about ROTS Sidious.

But now we're talking about the drain. There is zero(0) indication that Sidious has a defense for it. Any version of Sidious. Does that mean Nihilus is more powerful? No

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its hardly an anti-Sidious crusade to say he'd lose. Sidious being the most powerful and Nihilus beating him are not mutually exclusive.

You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious excellent

Yea...Of the PT era.

So not even The Father, Luke or Abeloth could compete with him?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So not even The Father, Luke or Abeloth could compete with him?

Nope biscuits

Ignore this one.

In all seriousness though with his force feats Nihilus should truly be able to eviscerate pretty much any other character in the mythos sans perhaps the Mortis squad.

However the logic that Sidious, being perhaps the most knowledgeable Sith Lord in the history of the galaxy, would not have a counter to the Dark Reaper when he gave his ambitious apprentice access to it is reckless at best and borderline retarded at worst. The desolation of the landscape coupled with the death of every being in its radius seems to hint to me that they are similar if not the same ability.

And admittedly without his giga-drain Nihilus is considerably less of a threat. Although his TK is probably also the best in the mythos considering he ripped the Star Destroyer sized Ravager AS WELL AS several 600m long Leviathan vessels and held together the latter through sheer will.

That being said the claim that he held it together is somewhat disproved because when he died the vessel still held together. I think Sidious will be able to take this though. He is firmly above Galen Marek who has similar TK feats.

Overall I'd say Sidious takes this.

Also, I think Yoda may have also had information on how to resist the Reaper's effects excellent

Galens feats aren't as good as Nihilus'.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
I've repeatedly made the claim that I'm talking about ROTS Sidious.

But now we're talking about the drain. There is zero(0) indication that Sidious has a defense for it. Any version of Sidious. Does that mean Nihilus is more powerful? No

Where have you repeatedly made the claim?

Question: Nihilus vs. Vitiate, who wins?

Nihilus.



Unless Vitiate has ever demonstrated he can resist da drainz or unless Vitiate's capable of blitzing him. Which I doubt.

Nihilus...... probably.

I should have clarified that the question was posed to Beefy, not you heretics.

Well now I just feel left out.

You have a place in my heart, child. Let that soothe you.

It's actually kinda soothing. I feel so loved now. Thanks.

I don't feel anything.

That's 'cause your empty inside.

For now.

http://i.imgur.com/OJlimmv.gif

*you're.

I can't believe I made that mistake.

Depends. What's faster; Nihilus' drain or Vitiate's mind domination?

Originally posted by mstanford2912
Depends. What's faster; Nihilus' drain or Vitiate's mind domination?

Curious. And who wins: Sidious or Nihilus?

It depends. Can Sidious slice him up faster than Nihilus can drain him?

Curious.

The Father vs. Nihilus?

I don't think The Ones are subject to the same rules as other characters. As far as I'm concerned, they're deities that are untouchable.

Enough about me, what about The Father?

The World Razer vs Nihilus?

(RazerRazerRazerRazerRazerRazer!)

So seeing as no one can prove that all drains are the same as Nihilus unique force wound drain, does that mean logically Sidious has no counter to Nihilus?

To be honest Nihilus could likely kill most anyone in one versus one combat in the SW Mythos, his Unique force wound drain, unrivaled TK and lack of a physical body make him unstoppable.

However does that mean he is more "powerful" than sidious? No. The statement is not contradicted. Sidious was hailed as the most powerful due to the balance of his powers, intellect and cunning, Sidious was not the greatest in every field of expertise, or genre of power. Rather it was Sidious blend of expertise in a plethora of fields of expertise, and skill in multiple power sets that made him the most "powerful".

Furthermore Nihilus has shown to be extremely fast, as in his Drain is instantaneous and ongoing, it isn't just a one shot event it is a non stop field that is instant in its effect and continuous.

Furthermore what is Sidious going to do to Nihilus in melee? Nihilus is just empty armor, to destory him physicall sidious would have to literarly anihilate every atom of his armor, cloak, and mask.

Originally posted by Board Walker
unstoppable.

Someone didn't play KotOR II... ermm

Silver on comicvine made a good case (against me) for Nihilus being killable with a lightsaber by pointing out Warb Null, a guy possessing a suit of armor*, was killed by a lightsaber.


*although his wookieepedia page makes no note of this?