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Diana is depowered but got peak human stats and can is fully adapted skillwise to those stats.

Rules: no gear, fight to kill, KO or tapout.
Setting: In a bar.
Starting distance 10 ft

1: Rorschac
2: Batgirl (Barbara Brown)
3: Hawkeye
4: Moon Knight
5: Daredevil
6: Taskmaster
7: Black Panther
8: Temugin

Feel free to change the order.

Lol I just made the same thread.

Probably stops @4

Stops or splits at 4

Stops at 5

Doesn't make it past Clint.

If the opponents don't get their weapons either, then she stops a 5.

I'll go with 5 as well.

there's a good chance that she stops at 4, but she is definatly not going to make it past 5.

dd beats her for certain. she could beat clint, not sure about a majority though.

Don't know why DD would beat her for certain. She's one of the most skilled fighters in DC

not so sure that can be born out by her showings pre or post reboot.... she does have a few good showings, but she has several lesser than great ones as well. can't see her beating dd with their stats equalized. maybe she could take a couple, but no way she beats him for a majority imo.

because of his superhuman senses? For starters I mean.

If she's one of the most skilled, then why does she have so much trouble with people around her strength level.....because guys like Cap, Batman and DD have beaten people that are litterally several times stronger than them.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
because of his superhuman senses? For starters I mean.

i think his senses would certainly help, but i think he's simply more skilled based on his performances against skilled h2h combatants.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If she's one of the most skilled, then why does she have so much trouble with people around her strength level.....because guys like Cap, Batman and DD have beaten people that are litterally several times stronger than them.

Things don't really scale that way when you get into the big leagues. By that logic, people like Herc also aren't that skilled.

I'm far from a Wonder Woman expert, but she's been referred to as the most skilled martial artist on Earth, the most skilled among the Amazons many times (a race who pretty much only does fighting), and has a bunch of good combat feats, IIRC including some with sensory deprivation (e.g. blindfolded).

Originally posted by Cogito
Things don't really scale that way when you get into the big leagues. By that logic, people like Herc also aren't that skilled.

I'm far from a Wonder Woman expert, but she's been referred to as the most skilled martial artist on Earth, the most skilled among the Amazons many times (a race who pretty much only does fighting), and has a bunch of good combat feats, IIRC including some with sensory deprivation (e.g. blindfolded).

If only that were true in practice...but it's not, characters like WW, Thor and Herc have all been described as extremely skilled, but that supposed skill almost never seems to come into play against people in or around their power tier.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If only that were true in practice...but it's not, characters like WW, Thor and Herc have all been described as extremely skilled, but that supposed skill almost never seems to come into play against people in or around their power tier.

That's because it's just not necessary. Sometimes writers will play it up, but most of the time not. That goes for everyone in the tier. You've kind of just got to roll with it, just as the highest tiers don't really have feats. She still has some great feats and big time statements (from characters and narration). Those don't just go away...

The problem is, that the examples of them being no more skilled than the average top tier out-number the skill feats by at least 100 to 1..which means they'll get written off as an outlier or PIS etc.

Don't believe me, start a equal bodies thread that puts either WW or Thor against Superman and see what happens.

For the flip side, just look at the Batman gets the Super Skrull's powers thread.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If only that were true in practice...but it's not, characters like WW, Thor and Herc have all been described as extremely skilled, but that supposed skill almost never seems to come into play against people in or around their power tier. Except when Hercules beats Thor in H2H combat straight-up? And Wonder Woman tools Power Girl?

You're aware that I said "almost" never, right?

She wouldn't get past Hawkeye.

Stalemates 5 or gets maybe even to 7.

Spector takes her out. No chance against Matt

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Stops at 5 and gets pummeled to death at 6 and 7. fixed that for you.

Taskmaster should be above BP without suite and tools though

Originally posted by deathslash
fixed that for you.

It wasn't broken, no need to fix it.

Stops at 5 probably.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It wasn't broken, no need to fix it. looks like somebody is in denial

Originally posted by deathslash
looks like somebody is in denial

Don't worry I won't tell anyone, your secret (and denial) is safe.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Don't worry I won't tell anyone, your secret (and denial) is safe.

sorry to tell you this bro, but based purely off of h2h feats and skill, there is no way that Wonder woman gets past Matt. There is no way that her anus would be able to recover from the pure amount of damage that Taskmaster and Panther would inflict upon it (in other words, she gets her shit pushed in by Taskmaster and gets it pushed in twice as bad by Panther ).

It's not like Diana hasn't fought while she was weakened and blind, or the fact that she has 1000 yrs of combat under her belt.

Fighting blind isn't that special, Cyclops has done it.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If she's one of the most skilled, then why does she have so much trouble with people around her strength level.....because guys like Cap, Batman and DD have beaten people that are litterally several times stronger than them.

And do those people also have superspeed, insane durability and more powers than anyone can count?

The problem Diana has against that weight class isn't just an issue of strength. She'd do a lot better against them if it came down to H2H. It almost never does though. The problem is that they have about a hundred other powers she has to worry about in addition to their stats. For that reason I don't think your Cap, Batman and DD reference is on point.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
And do those people also have superspeed, insane durability and more powers than anyone can count?

The problem Diana has against that weight class isn't just an issue of strength. She'd do a lot better against them if it came down to H2H. It almost never does though. The problem is that they have about a hundred other powers she has to worry about in addition to their stats. For that reason I don't think your Cap, Batman and DD reference is on point.

WW also has superspeed and insane durability, BTW what other powers are you talking about that render her supposed skill useless?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
She wouldn't get past Hawkeye.

The best melee fighter in the world can't beat Hawkeye?
Wow.

Originally posted by h1a8
The best melee fighter in the world can't beat Hawkeye?
Wow. What does Iron Fist have to do with this thread?

Originally posted by h1a8
The best melee fighter in the world can't beat Hawkeye?
Wow.

What does Remo Williams have to do with this thread?

Originally posted by Silent Master
If she's one of the most skilled, then why does she have so much trouble with people around her strength level.....because guys like Cap, Batman and DD have beaten people that are litterally several times stronger than them.

Her primary foes are, (A) much faster than her (Cheetah), (b) more powerful (Ares, Genocide), (c) Magic (Circe, Queen of Fables), or (d) badly outmatched (Giganta).

Foes like Achilles and Hercules, are known for both strength *and* skill and still lose to her.


Even Superman, who's quite skilled, when it comes to foot-to-foot hand to hand, that's where she gets her licks in, but he has travel/flight speed and multiple forms of range to take it out of pure melee and make it a wider fight, options that the likes of Herc doesn't have. A high-level fight like vs Superman is not, after all, a martial arts battle, it's an all-abilities fight.




Not useless, but if you can charge someone at a good fraction of .C, that's not something just martial arts can counter, that has to be defended against with other powers. If you have heat vision and freeze breath, that's stuff that Di doesn't have. And yadda yadda.

Her skill still helps a lot, at least part of these fights often does end up in melee, it's just not the whole picture.


One of her big foes, Silver Swan, is almost primarily a ranged fighter who's sonics are used to keep at a distance.

Originally posted by h1a8
The best melee fighter in the world can't beat Hawkeye?
Wow.

Wonder Woman isn't the best melee fighter in the world. Not even close. I'm not even certain if she's in the Top 20 if we include all the obscure fighters like Richard Dragon.

Originally posted by Q99
Her primary foes are, (A) much faster than her (Cheetah), (b) more powerful (Ares, Genocide), (c) Magic (Circe, Queen of Fables), or (d) badly outmatched (Giganta).

Foes like Achilles and Hercules, are known for both strength *and* skill and still lose to her.


Even Superman, who's quite skilled, when it comes to foot-to-foot hand to hand, that's where she gets her licks in, but he has travel/flight speed and multiple forms of range to take it out of pure melee and make it a wider fight, options that the likes of Herc doesn't have. A high-level fight like vs Superman is not, after all, a martial arts battle, it's an all-abilities fight.




Not useless, but if you can charge someone at a good fraction of .C, that's not something just martial arts can counter, that has to be defended against with other powers. If you have heat vision and freeze breath, that's stuff that Di doesn't have. And yadda yadda.

Her skill still helps a lot, at least part of these fights often does end up in melee, it's just not the whole picture.


One of her big foes, Silver Swan, is almost primarily a ranged fighter who's sonics are used to keep at a distance.


Achilles and Hercules don't really have many if any skill feats that would place them anywhere near elite street level, Superman really isn't all that skilled and as for people with ranged attacks, Batman, Cap, Daredevil etc manage to deal with them all the time.

Achilles from DC? Anyone have scans of that fight? I remember him having the power to dodge attacks but once Wonder Woman caught him, he folded hard.

Hercules was always a womanizing brute. Never demonstrated any high end skill similar to Marvel Hercules as far as I can recall. Or are we assuming he has to be skilled simply because of his name? It's one thing to assume he has some experience and training (He lasted against the much stronger Doomsday Clone for a few moments for example) but you need hard evidence just to compare him to Frank Castle or Tim Drake, much less elite streets.

Achilles was a beast. Fought amped geo force and owned eradicator.

With elite HTH skill or just being that powerfrul?

He fought like a brawler. It was really weird how he went from being a refined fighter to a brick like that but whatever. In his introduction, his entire fighting style revolved around not getting hit.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He fought like a brawler. It was really weird how he went from being a refined fighter to a brick like that but whatever. In his introduction, his entire fighting style revolved around not getting hit.

I thought so, but it's been a couple years since I've gone though my WW collection, being on a rather long temp work assignment(different state) makes it hard to keep up to date or look things up....I have entire stacks of back issues that I haven't gotten to yet.

Originally posted by Silent Master
With elite HTH skill or just being that powerfrul?

Pure power.

McDuffie was on crack when he wrote batman saying wonder woman was the best melee fighter in the world. Pure wankery.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wonder Woman isn't the best melee fighter in the world. Not even close. I'm not even certain if she's in the Top 20 if we include all the obscure fighters like Richard Dragon. Well that's how that writer felt. In other words, He would have had her beat ANYONE in h2h in equal physicality. If she's not the best melee fighter in the world then the statement is not far off. I and many fans wasn't surprised reading that scene.

IMO she's in the top 5 easily. How do you feel about Herc against Hawkeye in equal depowered bodies?

Originally posted by h1a8
Well that's how that writer felt. In other words, He would have had her beat ANYONE in h2h in equal physicality. If she's not the best melee fighter in the world then the statement is not far off. I and many fans wasn't surprised reading that scene.

IMO she's in the top 5 easily. How do you feel about Herc against Hawkeye in equal depowered bodies?

Post skill feats that justify WW being in the top 5.

Originally posted by h1a8
Well that's how that writer felt. In other words, He would have had her beat ANYONE in h2h in equal physicality. If she's not the best melee fighter in the world then the statement is not far off. I and many fans wasn't surprised reading that scene.

IMO she's in the top 5 easily. How do you feel about Herc against Hawkeye in equal depowered bodies? How is she top five when there are people that far outrank her with their h2h knowledge (batman 1million, Karate Kid, Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, Batman)? She most certainly isn't even top 10.

I wouldn't rank her in top 25 best fighters in DCU.

Wonder Woman isn't even in the top 5 fighters named Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Fighting blind isn't that special, Cyclops has done it.

When was the last time Cyclops fought while been blinded?

I agree not top 5. Even taking out the future ones, Cass, Shiv, Richard, Tiger, Bruce.

But top 25 is pretty easy. Black Canary thinks she's better than her, Batman spars with her on even terms and gives her big props (the guy gushes over her skills... a lot ^^), she trains with Shiva and uses advice from her (and then later admits she purposefully *puts in* little things when training with the criminals so they have something to point out, as part of their rehab).

She does all of that without powers?

Originally posted by abhilegend
McDuffie was on crack when he wrote batman saying wonder woman was the best melee fighter in the world. Pure wankery.

Didn't he also write that ridiculous scene where he compares Diana to Bruce Lee and Clark to Usain Bolt? Soule must have read that before he wrote the "masterpiece" that was Superman/Wonder Woman lol.

Those were dark days for the JL franchise (due to the storytelling and the lack of direction, but still it was a disappointing run for McDuffie to say the least).

Originally posted by abhilegend
She does all of that without powers?


When Batman or Shiva or Canary are commenting on her skill, do you think they're talking raw speed or strength?

Originally posted by Mindset
Wonder Woman isn't even in the top 5 fighters named Wonder Woman.

this guy......

she clears it

Originally posted by comicfan11
Didn't he also write that ridiculous scene where he compares Diana to Bruce Lee and Clark to Usain Bolt? Soule must have read that before he wrote the "masterpiece" that was Superman/Wonder Woman lol.

Those were dark days for the JL franchise (due to the storytelling and the lack of direction, but still it was a disappointing run for McDuffie to say the least).
Yes. That was after he got his butt handed to him on DC boards after he had wonder woman say she's flat out faster than superman. The same guy who had BP armbar Surfer too.

Originally posted by Q99
When Batman or Shiva or Canary are commenting on her skill, do you think they're talking raw speed or strength?
Any time when Batman said anything about her skills in a spar, JLA 61 or anywhere else its always mixed with her strength and durability. Her record against any street leveler isn't great when you count her strength, Chesire and Poison Ivy were giving her trouble in a fist fight, ditto deathstroke, ditto Batman, ditto any street leveler she came across. As far Black Canary saying she is better than her, well its Gail Simone. The same writer who had Huntress beat Shiva.

Originally posted by SquallX
When was the last time Cyclops fought while been blinded?

What does that matter, the fact is he's fought blind before and against multiple opponents.

Originally posted by Q99
Black Canary thinks she's better than her,

When did she say that? And while that's nice, how could it have any real relevance when in the only sparring match they had, Canary won despite Diana's huge physical stat advantage, holding back or not.

Originally posted by Q99
Batman spars with her on even terms and gives her big props (the guy gushes over her skills... a lot ^^),

Having real trouble with Batman despite her large stat advantage does not speak well towards her skills. He has outright been competitive in close combat with her and even had the advantage more often then not.

Originally posted by deathslash
How is she top five when there are people that far outrank her with their h2h knowledge (batman 1million, Karate Kid, Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, Batman)? She most certainly isn't even top 10. I disagree that they necessarily have more knowledge than her. Skill of a very effective style is more relevant than knowing different styles (including inferior ones). The amazon arts are superior to most (if not all) styles on Earth. Karate Kid IMO is the only one clearly better than her in h2h. Other characters are not clearly better. Batman 1 million doesn't exist on D.C. Earth currently.

and let's not forget--clint and frank are BOTH pretty damn good, and dd is exceptionally good. saying that they can defeat her or saying it is at least a debatable point isn't exactly a slap in the face to anyone. ALL of them would give good accounts of themselves against nearly any street level character.

Originally posted by abhilegend
She does all of that without powers?

Yup, comic physics allows it. It's called PIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yup, comic physics allows it. It's called PIS.

You still haven't posted any skill feats to justify your claim that she in the top 5.

Diana isnt elite Matt beats her face in Clint can split with her hes a pretty good MA

Daredevil would beat her. Soundly too.

Also, anyone trash-talking Cyclops? Warning for you.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You still haven't posted any skill feats to justify your claim that she in the top 5. I didn't make a claim. I stated it was an opinion. Reread the post.

List is out of order. Daredevil beats her.

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't make a claim. I stated it was an opinion. Reread the post.

Post the skill feats that your opinion is based on.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Post the skill feats that your opinion is based on.


1. My opinion is based off memory.

A. Amazonian arts were said to be superior to all earthly forms of combat.
B. Diana is the greatest Amazonian warrior.
C. Diana has multiple times shown amazing smoothness and ridiculous adeptness that rivals the top h2h combatants in combat.

2. You are in no position to demand skill feats when you refuse to show any strength or striking feats both proving that Mangog is able to hurt Kuurth and contradicting his actual striking showings which support that he can't hurt Kuurth.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. My opinion is based off memory.

A. Amazonian arts were said to be superior to all earthly forms of combat.

Yet, you can't actually post any feats to back this up.



Yet, you can't actually post any feats that would place her in the top 5.



Yet, you can't provide any feats of her actually showing top 5 level skill.



Other people have already mentioned SA Mangog's feats...now try and stay on topic.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Yet, you can't actually post any feats to back this up.



Yet, you can't actually post any feats that would place her in the top 5.



Yet, you can't provide any feats of her actually showing top 5 level skill.



Other people have already mentioned SA Mangog's feats...now try and stay on topic. that's why I stated it was my opinion.

No one showed any feats by Mangog showcasing his offensive striking power or strength. Bran showed a dumb ass feat of him lifting a bridge to make Asgardians and a weakened Odin fall into the water. That's got to be a 100 ton feat or less right? What is the minimum amount does that small bridge with Asgardians weigh?

Originally posted by h1a8
that's why I stated it was my opinion.

As it's not based on what the comics show, it is a rather worthless opinion, which begs the question...why bother posting in a thread where you have zero knowledge on the subject.

It's almost like you're trolling/baiting the people in this thread.

Stops at 4.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Stops at 4. I'm actually inclined to agree with you.

Originally posted by Silent Master
As it's not based on what the comics show, it is a rather worthless opinion, which begs the question...why bother posting in a thread where you have zero knowledge on the subject.

It's almost like you're trolling/baiting the people in this thread.

The same can be applied to you on any Mangog thread. You know zero of his strength and physical power output since you can't support it with feats.

Also when most people say X is more skilled than Y they are not thinking of particular feats, but using their memory as a whole.

For example, we know that Batman is more skilled than Cyclops in h2h fighting. But do we think of particular feats to know that?

I gave reasons of my opinion.
When Diana fights, she shows awesome smoothness, and masterful adeptness in h2h fighting that rivals any showing from any top fighter in the comics. I also base my opinion off her being the greatest amazionian warrior combined with the amazon arts being superior to most (if not all Earthly arts). Anything Batman or any top MA can do, she can do (if not better).

You have provide zero feats to back up your "opinion" that WW is in the top 5, all you seem to be doing is trolling the thread.

Originally posted by h1a8

When Diana fights, she shows awesome smoothness, and masterful adeptness in h2h fighting that rivals any showing from any top fighter in the comics. I also base my opinion off her being the greatest amazionian warrior combined with the amazon arts being superior to most (if not all Earthly arts). Anything Batman or any top MA can do, she can do (if not better).



What a bunch of retarded nonsense. Especially since we've seen pretty consistently that elite fighters can give her real trouble despite her large stat advantage.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


What a bunch of retarded nonsense. Especially since we've seen pretty consistently that elite fighters can give her real trouble despite her large stat advantage.

It's funny how he keeps saying that she shows awesome smoothness, and masterful adeptness in h2h fighting that rivals any showing from any top fighter in the comics yet he is unable to provide any examples.

Here are all the Batman vs. Wonder Woman fights that I'm aware of:
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/batvsdiana-jlasf1.jpg.html
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvsdiana-jlasf2.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvsdiana-jla61a.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvsdiana-jla61b.jpg

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/batvsdiana-ww1.jpg.html
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvsdiana-ww2.jpg

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/Skills%20Misc/jlascarymonster6-batvsdemondiana1.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/Skills%20Misc/jlascarymonster6-batvsdemondiana2.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/Skills%20Misc/jlascarymonster6-batvsdemondiana3.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/Skills%20Misc/jlascarymonster6-batvsdemondiana4.jpg.html

http://s7.postimg.org/tuxemhp8r/Hikeletiapg59.jpg
http://s7.postimg.org/vgcoeazgr/Hikeletiapg6061.jpg
http://s7.postimg.org/cvog78e17/Hikeletiapg62.jpg
http://s7.postimg.org/5gz4eus5n/Hikeletiapg84.jpg
http://s7.postimg.org/yxeqh9yiz/Hikeletiapg85.jpg
http://s7.postimg.org/whcx3fggb/Hikeletiapg86.jpg

http://s23.postimg.org/fx6opinqv/Batman_Confidential_53_003.jpghttp://s8.postimg.org/di7xdxyf5/Batman_Confidential_53_004.jpg

Except 1 or 2, she's always won but he's pretty consistently hung in there for a bit. There are also indirect showings like Catwoman/Batman owning Cheetah on different occasions and I believe Ra's beat Diana in a sword fight.

Anyways, I find it hard to believe that Diana is not only much more powerful but possesses greater skill as well.

Exactly, if WW had top 5 level HTH skill...those fights would have lasted at most 2 panels.

(I'll comment, but mainly on the idea she's top 25, not top 5)



But he's also largely trying to avoid her and just keep away. And he can normally play keep away much longer against strong foes than that.



Those simply showed *massive* misunderstanding of Cheetah's power level, they were writing her like the animated version (who's a scientist mutated by cat DNA, as opposed to a god). Cheetahs have taken down Flash and Superman.

Compare to Cheetah owning the Secret Six... while not using her speed. Bane comes at her, she gently shoves him into a wall, etc.. They got away by pointing a high power electricity villain at her.

The Secret Six is almost all highly skilled fighters, and they were badly outmatched against Cheetah, even as a group.



Trinity mini-series, non-canon elseworld (it had a few other problems like her lasso being easily broken. That WW is lower power than canon one, Wondy normally gets the short end in elseworlds).

Originally posted by Q99
Trinity mini-series, non-canon elseworld (it had a few other problems like her lasso being easily broken. This is patently false. Trinity isn't an elseworld and never was. Its not like her lasso has never broken in canon, right? That's false too.