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http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SN_zps9cdcbc39.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/MI_zpsad922bee.jpg

The Sissy Nagger probably..

Michael wins.

Though it's hard to determine Genesis' power level when he achieved his Godhood status, he didn't do anything that puts him above Michael.

Let's see...Sise-Neg went backwards in time from the 31st century, absorbing energy along the way. There's a couple problems here. One obviously being what about the beyond the 31st century? Another being the fact that he was limited in what he could do going back (didn't defeat Shuma because it would take too much energy).

So we have a guy who definitely doesn't have infinite power against a guy who's defined by being infinite power....mmm

The reason he didn't defeat Shuma Gorath was that it would take time, time he didn't feel he had, and in defeating Shuma Gorath he would lose some of his energy, that he had accumulated to restart the universe. Sise-neg did however drain and banish Shuma Gorath before Gorath even noticed Sise-Neg was there.

Originally posted by Utrigita
The reason he didn't defeat Shuma Gorath was that it would take time, time he didn't feel he had, and in defeating Shuma Gorath he would lose some of his energy, that he had accumulated to restart the universe. Sise-neg did however drain and banish Shuma Gorath before Gorath even noticed Sise-Neg was there.

Right...he was limited, while Michael is unlimited by definition.

wow... judging by this thread and the comments people dont really understand who Michael Demiurgos is.
some people here think that a guy who couldnt defeat shuma gorath is a match for him, same shuma gorath who people believe would lose to odin....

Originally posted by Cogito
Let's see...Sise-Neg went backwards in time from the 31st century, absorbing energy along the way. There's a couple problems here. One obviously being what about the beyond the 31st century? Another being the fact that he was limited in what he could do going back (didn't defeat Shuma because it would take too much energy).


Toward the end, Sise-Neg absrobed all the energy in the universe (time-space within a singular universe) which should make it unlimited. Universal-level unlimited (going by comics logic):

http://i.imgur.com/RcjsPpe.jpg

And his official bio (master edition #2) confirms it:

http://i.imgur.com/JTTTii0.jpg?1


That was before he achieved his "God status", though.

Im assuming that this battle is Sise-Neg at his peak, otherwise it would be pointless.

I wasn't aware Sise-Neg tried to defeat Shuma and could not.

What I remember, is Sise-Neg hypothesizing about what may
happen if he tried to destroy Shuma, which is what Dr Strange wanted, Not Sise-Neg.
Heck, Sise-Neg didn't want to hurt Shuma at all.
So instead, Sise-Neg decided it'd be best for Shuma to get KTFO!
and bfr'd into a pocket dimension for a millennia,
then Sise-Neg re-created that reality free of Shuma ever having been there.

That aside, I could care less who wins in kmc this cross company match,
but for those who wish to engage here's some info on Genesis.
Sise-Neg re-created all of Marvel back then.
Sise-Neg basically became the embodiment of All Space-Time and Energy,
and it was from withIN his body that the original Big Bang exploded.
The Big Bang that created the infinite Marvelverse.

Michael, easily. Neg lacks the feats to compete with him.

^^ ... "easily?" ... wow, I still will have no opinion on the match but wow.
This Michael must be uber indeed.

Although GK,
I'm not too sure SN needed 'feats' at that point
since he was supposed to be the 'in-universe' supreme being.
Yet, his feat was having the power to re-create everything, & demonstrating it.

------------------------------------------

Sise-Neg's (Now "God" - Genesis) body contained the original Big Bang:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16829188_SisNeg_creates_all.jpg

"Everything explodes, mushrooming from the point where,
ALL Existing Power had been held" (Sise-Neg's body)

"He's witnessed the Second creation of the Universe"

------------------------------------------

The original Big Bang, which created the Living Tribunal, Eternity and friends:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16829108_LT_Big_Bang.jpg

"At the dawn of time, when matter and energy exploded forth, creating our Universe"

------------------------------------------

Sise-Neg re-created the Marvelverse including the LT & cosmic hierarchy.

... wow.

Sis-Neg wins. Vertigo angels, for all the hype, have idiotic stips on their powers.

Nice. Associating a 1974 comic with a 2007.

But of course if we're going to go beyond the story (use other comics) may as well post this from a what if issue:

http://i.imgur.com/5YUU14z.jpg?1

"become one with YOUR universe"

Just wanted to post this.

Anyway, both Lucifer and Michael dwarf multiversal beings.

Originally posted by zopzop
Sis-Neg wins. Vertigo angels, for all the hype, have idiotic stips on their powers.

Like what?

Michael wins.

Originally posted by operator616

Nice. Associating a 1974 comic with a 2007
Yea? And? It's all 'Marvel Comics' last time I checked.

Sise-Neg travelled and absorbed all space-time-energy till the "Dawn of Time" ...
Sise-Neg (from the Void that precedes the First Big Bang)
explodes (Big Bang embodied) and spews out the Marvelverse.
(616, being just one Era, where Doc and Mordo were left off)
We later learn the Living Tribunal and friends were created "at the Dawn of Time" ...
via the Big Bang, same Big Bang Sise-Neg enjoyed employing.

Now, of course "1974" Stevie didn't specifically intend for these
added specifics to be intrinsically connected to his story by default,
but it is what it is. Call it retcon or whatever but it is what it is.
Originally posted by operator616

But of course if we're going to go beyond the story (use other
comics) may as well post this from a what if issue:

Non Canon, therefore irrelevant. And some statement from some
nobody who wasn't even there isn't going to change on panel depictions imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea? And? It's all 'Marvel Comics' last time I checked.

Sise-Neg travelled and absorbed all space-time-energy till the "Dawn of Time" ...
Sise-Neg (from the Void that precedes the First Big Bang)
explodes (Big Bang embodied) and spews out the Marvelverse.
(616, being just one Era, where Doc and Mordo were left off)
We later learn the Living Tribunal and friends were created "at the Dawn of Time" ...
via the Big Bang, same Big Bang Sise-Neg enjoyed employing.

Now, of course "1974" Stevie didn't specifically intend for these
added specifics to be intrinsically connected to his story by default,
but it is what it is. Call it retcon or whatever but it is what it is.

Non Canon, therefore irrelevant. And some statement from some
nobody who wasn't even there isn't going to change on panel depictions imo.

what's important is the writer's intention, in which case, Steve certainly didn't intend to portray Genesis as being someone who's more powerful than an entity which (sometimes) operates on a megaversal+ scale.

It's from what if v2 #35, part of timequake, which is canon (it's also referenced in a couple of other bios as well), from blockbusters of the marvel universe handbook (2011):

http://i.imgur.com/p7qnH7H.jpg

I think you're just going beyond what was intended in the story. Ok, 616 is one era, the others are divergent realities, but there are still other realities which don't diverge / don't have anything to do with 616 and can't be reached by time travel.

Imo, and now that i think of it, Steve may as well didn't intend to use other eras as other realities. I mean.....it's not like the term "alternate reality" wasn't used in 1974, here's 1 example from fantastic four issue around the same year (1974):

http://i.imgur.com/s4nlvrQ.jpg?1

Im cool that you (or anyone else) disagree with me, but that's how i see it.

Also, you'd expect at least a handbook to confirm that it was a multiversal recreation, when we have a handbook as far as of 2011 say that it was universal:

http://i.imgur.com/MZKJnHs.jpg?1

Originally posted by zopzop
Sis-Neg wins. Vertigo angels, for all the hype, have idiotic stips on their powers.
And then there was this guy...

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ ... "easily?" ... wow, I still will have no opinion on the match but wow.
This Michael must be uber indeed.

Although GK,
I'm not too sure SN needed 'feats' at that point
since he was supposed to be the 'in-universe' supreme being.
Yet, his feat was having the power to re-create everything, & demonstrating it.

------------------------------------------

Sise-Neg's (Now "God" - Genesis) body contained the original Big Bang:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16829188_SisNeg_creates_all.jpg

"Everything explodes, mushrooming from the point where,
ALL Existing Power had been held" (Sise-Neg's body)

"He's witnessed the Second creation of the Universe"

------------------------------------------

The original Big Bang, which created the Living Tribunal, Eternity and friends:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16829108_LT_Big_Bang.jpg

"At the dawn of time, when matter and energy exploded forth, creating our Universe"

------------------------------------------

Sise-Neg re-created the Marvelverse including the LT & cosmic hierarchy.

... wow.
Michael embodies the power of Yahweh, just as Lucifer embodies the will. Lucifer shaped a multiverse from Michael's energies. Michael's feats are superior to Neg's by and far.

I also find it funny that you go around mocking someone else's opinion when you claim that you don't have any yourself about this battle.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Michael embodies the power of Yahweh, just as Lucifer embodies the will. Lucifer shaped a multiverse from Michael's energies. Michael's feats are superior to Neg's by and far.




Not to mention that Michael (like his brother Lucifer) dwarf the endless, who are multiversal beings.

Defeating Corrigan spectre (and one shotting a hostless spectre) in his own solo series, is an excellent feat as well.

Originally posted by operator616
Not to mention that Michael (like his brother Lucifer) dwarf the endless, who are multiversal beings.

Defeating Corrigan spectre (and one shotting a hostless spectre) in his own solo series, is an excellent feat as well.
I'd say that they are both peers to Death(who's the strongest of the Endless lot), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they both dwarf her as well.

Of course, with someone like Dream(a fraction of whose power has been enough to create entire universes before) that's indeed true considering the manner in which he spoke of Lucifer, but Death is on a whole other level as compared to her siblings.

Originally posted by operator616

what's important is the writer's intention, in which case, Steve certainly didn't
intend to portray Genesis as being someone who's more powerful than an entity
which (sometimes) operates on a megaversal+ scale.
No one said he did. Still doesn't change the facts though which pertain by default.
Originally posted by operator616

It's from what if v2 #35, part of timequake, which is canon (it's also referenced in
a couple of other bios as well), from blockbusters of the marvel universe handbook
That's a badass arc, I loved that read. It is a What if so technically here it isn't canon,
but for those who know It also involves everything so imo it's acceptable.
Unfortunately it's a statement that holds no weight since it didn't come from Mordo/Strange,
who were the only ones there. I have to also re-read that issue where you got that from,
I'm interested in getting the details for myself. We'll touch base on this again.
Originally posted by operator616

I think you're just going beyond what was intended in the story.
Ok, 616 is one era, the others are divergent realities, but there are
still other realities which don't diverge / don't have anything to do with 616 and can't be reached by time travel.
I'm not going anywhere further than Marvel Cosmology permits,
but that's actually a good point you made.
I'm figuring Stevie didn't take that into account, or it wasn't a priority to write in,
and by the time SN reached the "dawn of time," that was it.

Technically speaking, across many books, 616 was first, (space-time speaking)
then everything came afterwards. So, before 616 = nothing, or the void basically.
Originally posted by operator616

Imo, and now that i think of it, Steve may as well didn't intend to use other eras as
other realities. I mean.....it's not like the term "alternate reality" wasn't used in 1974,
here's 1 example from fantastic four issue around the same year (1974):

Your opinion is respected.

But, opr it's not our problem if that were the case. Just like it's not our problem
Dorkin didn't mean to turn Mxy into a multi-mutliversal maker.

I personally got that info from WF's writer himself, just like Comicvine went knocking on Stevie's door,
believe me, I learned my lesson well via certain DC pros here at kmc,
these writers are out the loop concerning the after-affects of their work.
Yet again, not our problem, so we go by On Panel showings and figure things out for ourselves.

There's no point to kmc or other forums if we're gonna run to writers for answers now,
not that Stevie completely discounted our interpretation, in fact he left his answer kinda vague,
and, he did say whatever is in the book, is what it is. And well ... that's what it is.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Lucifer shaped a multiverse from Michael's energies. Michael's
feats are superior to Neg's by and far.
I don't see that feat being superior by far at all, imo.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

I also find it funny that you go around mocking someone else's
opinion when you claim that you don't have any yourself about this battle.
I never intended to poke at your post in any way.
If facial expressions could be recognized in posts you'd know that.
That's a silly way of me saying I was being sincere and meant no harm.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't see that feat being superior by far at all, imo.

I never intended to poke at your post in any way.
If facial expressions could be recognized in posts you'd know that.
That's a silly way of me saying I was being sincere and meant no harm.
I do though, which is why it's my opinion. When dealing with characters of that level of power from different franchises, subjective opinion reigns supreme.

You clearly questioned my "easily" claim in a mocking tone, when my post was just a generic reply to the thread, and not even directed at you.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

I do though, which is why it's my opinion. When dealing with
characters of that level of power from different franchises, subjective
opinion reigns supreme.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

You clearly questioned my "easily" claim in a mocking tone, when my post was just a generic reply to the thread, and not even directed at you.
Originally posted by Mr Master

I never intended to poke at your post in any way.
If facial expressions could be recognized in posts you'd know that.
That's a silly way of me saying I was being sincere and meant no harm.
I'll also add, pardon me,
I may not have used the most suitable words to convey my point.

Now let's be happy.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I'd say that they are both peers to Death(who's the strongest of the Endless lot), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they both dwarf her as well.

Of course, with someone like Dream(a fraction of whose power has been enough to create entire universes before) that's indeed true considering the manner in which he spoke of Lucifer, but Death is on a whole other level as compared to her siblings.

yeah, perhaps i went too far to say that the brothers dwarf all the endless. Considering that Death will eventually take all the other endless (and take herself in the end) id say that puts her above the others, there's also the fact that she travels to other realms of the endless freely, unlike the others. So you're right, but i think that Lucifer and Michael are still superior to her, given that she couldn't really do anything to Lucifer.

yep. And apart from that uber showing, a thousand humans managed to change the whole universe (From its beginning to the end) in Sandman v2 #18:

http://i.imgur.com/fKDqYQ8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2nIVjD6.jpg

pay attention to this panel:

http://i.imgur.com/g08hjDH.jpg?2

And since we're applying that other timelines = other realities in regards to Sise Neg, we might as well apply it to dc (from deadman: dead again #5):

http://i.imgur.com/f4NDXBA.jpg?1

So we can likewise say here that since the dreaming power managed to change the universe from beginning of time till the end, it also changed the realities that diverged from the timestream.

That's what the power of dreaming is.

Yet Lucifer and Michael dwarf such a being. Uber.

There's really no way Sise Neg is winning this. Glad we agree.

=

Originally posted by operator616

http://i.imgur.com/g08hjDH.jpg?2
And since we're applying that other timelines = other realities in
regards to Sise Neg, we might as well apply it to dc (from deadman: dead again #5):
http://i.imgur.com/f4NDXBA.jpg?1

Actually, it's not 'us' who are applying these facts to Marvel Comic's character Sise-Neg,
it's Marvel Comics who have established that Other points in Time = Other Universes.

This is a Marvel Comics Fact, I don't know anything about DC,
but if you're guessing that's the case to poke fun at Marvel facts,
you're wasting both our time.

I have 4 completely separate arcs, from 4 different titles,
and all sharing the same basic Concept. On Panel so let me know.

That, and the Fact that every single Future and Past is located in an Alternate World:

(every ... single ... one)

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

-----------------------------------

If that's the factual proven case for DC as well, then

^ don't need the proof, i am aware of that fact........but there's still the writer's intention. You're going by what was shown in other books, Which is ok, but id still prefer writer's intention.

Full Power Sise-Neg.

Originally posted by operator616
Not to mention that Michael (like his brother Lucifer) dwarf the endless, who are multiversal beings.

Defeating Corrigan spectre (and one shotting a hostless spectre) in his own solo series, is an excellent feat as well.

Didn't he own Spectre?

^ yes he did. Never said otherwise.

He defeated a hostless spectre in spectre v3 #0, and Corrigan Spectre in spectre v3 #10.

Let me know if you need the scans.

Originally posted by operator616

^ don't need the proof, i am aware of that fact........but there's still
the writer's intention. You're going by what was shown in other books,
Which is ok, but id still prefer writer's intention.
Fair enuff. Although my interpretation is solely derived from the Sise-Neg issues.
I only threw in that Annihilation scan to segue how the "dawn of time"
is connected to LT's birth since that relates directly to Sise-Neg's feat.

While that may be a solid stance,
if that writer comment had not been investigated at CV,
there would be no confusion as to what happened on panel.

You've proven yurself as one of those who knows, so we both know
(writer intention aside) what Sise-Neg did according to Marvel cosmology.

I hope we can agree with that atleast, because I see your point better now.

Yes, if we go by marvel cosmology, then i agree with you, but.....the intention was pretty clear if you ask me. For example (from marvel premiere #13), like when Mordo claimed that he could alter THAT REALITY while the book was in his possession:

http://i.imgur.com/VgSwi8t.jpg?1

so if by time traveling one does indeed end up in an alternate reality, Mordo wouldn't be even altering the 616 reality (the reality he's talking about), but rather another one.

.....same thing applies to Genesis and his time travels.

Of course, as i said before, if we're going to take into account only the marvel cosmology, then im inclined to agree with you.

As for the scan opr, I believe he's talking about altering 616 from the past.
I know it's tricky but you can affect the Present from the Past,
just like you can affect FutureS from the Present.
In most cases concerning affecting the Present
it takes uber time manipulation, great skill in time travel,
or fine prep to visit the Past safely. (remember the 1602 arc)

What has always made heads spin including mine,
is that somehow all "pasts" were once a point in "time" in 616's Past.
Yet, if you abruptly traverse space-time from 616 and enter any universe
representing 616's "past," you end up in an alternate reality representing
whatever point in time you entered. Ain't that a daisy.

Like, these two scans I had near by: (visit the Past = create a universe)

(story centers in an alternate reality but involves just about everything as you know)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16830629_timetravelrealities.jpg

------------------------------------

(this is from 616 Thor comics, where the same principle applies)

You enter a "Past" era, and that's an Alternate Universe: (Year 1942)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16109635_Past_Alternate_Future1.jpg
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16109636_Past_Alternate_Future2.jpg

"We could be lost in another Alternate Dimension"

------------------------------------

I know, and I agree, but it is what it is. ... bah, let's just enjoy it. stoned

Michael wins.

^Nope.

Yes.

Originally posted by Cogito
Right...he was limited, while Michael is unlimited by definition.

Merely clarifying what happened between Sise-neg and Shuma Gorath

Originally posted by Utrigita
Merely clarifying what happened between Sise-neg and Shuma Gorath

Sise-Neg wasn't even at the end of his journey at that point, so...

Truth

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, it's not 'us' who are applying these facts to Marvel Comic's character Sise-Neg,
it's Marvel Comics who have established that Other points in Time = Other Universes.

This is a Marvel Comics Fact, Originally posted by Mr Master
As for the scan opr, I believe he's talking about altering 616 from the past.
I know it's tricky but you can affect the Present from the Past,
just like you can affect FutureS from the Present.
In most cases concerning affecting the Present
it takes uber time manipulation, great skill in time travel,
or fine prep to visit the Past safely. (remember the 1602 arc) Not arguing what you're saying, because I know Marvel has established this notion a few times, but that just makes no sense to me.

If you can travel back to the past and affect your present and/or future, then clearly you are in the same reality. If you were in a divergent reality inadvertently created by simply time-hopping, then any alterations you made should apply exclusively to the new/divergent reality, and not the reality you started out in.

I agree with operator in that regard: it seems like the "other points in time=other universes" concept varies depending on the specific writer and his/her intent... It certainly doesn't strike me as the most consistent part of Marvel cosmology. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007

Not arguing what you're saying, because I know Marvel has
established this notion a few times, but that just makes no sense to me.

If you can travel back to the past and affect your present and/or
future, then clearly you are in the same reality. If you were in a
divergent reality inadvertently created by simply time-hopping, then
any alterations you made should apply exclusively to the
new/divergent reality, and not the reality you started out in.
I agree.

Although the paradox lies in how can one be in the same reality visiting the Past, if the same reality is also existing in the Present?
The Past already came and went, so what is one visiting really?

You see what I mean Galan? Shit makes no sense no matter how it's viewed. In reality (real world) that's why traveling backwards is truly impossible.

Come to think of it,
the "divergent reality inadvertently created" explanation makes more sense to me, because there shouldn't be any reality in the past to begin with. So I see it as, space-time creating a sector (alternate reality) where the Past that one thinks one is visiting can be visited or exploited, and the reason a reality is created is in order to accommodate the anomaly which is the "time traveler." imo!

That makes sense, but, it also leads to another paradox, how the hell does this allow someone to affect the Present/Future?

Goodness Galan, my head's about to pop.
Originally posted by Galan007

I agree with operator in that regard: it seems like the "other
points in time=other universes" concept varies depending on the
specific writer and his/her intent...
We can't rely on writer intentions if these intentions even remotely dispute and/or confuse on panel showings.

You should know since you shut down facts lovely when I posted Dorkin's "intentions" concerning Mxy-WF.

I agreed with you cause via Other books you were able to prove how Mxy did more, than Dorkin had ever imagined or intended in the actual book.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.

Although the paradox lies in how can one be in the same reality visiting the Past, if the same reality is also existing in the Present?
The Past already came and went, so what is one visiting really?

You see what I mean Galan? Shit makes no sense no matter how it's viewed. In reality (real world) that's why traveling backwards is truly impossible.

Come to think of it,
the "divergent reality inadvertently created" explanation makes more sense to me, because there shouldn't be any reality in the past to begin with. So I see it as, space-time creating a sector (alternate reality) where the Past that one thinks one is visiting can be visited or exploited, and the reason a reality is created is in order to accommodate the anomaly which is the "time traveler." imo!

That makes sense, but, it also leads to another paradox, how the hell does this allow someone to affect the Present/Future?

Goodness Galan, my head's about to pop. In comics, the past does still exist, though. This is how numerous characters over the years have gone back in time in order to change something in the present/future.

...And if they can change the present/future via altering the past, then clearly the past they visited must not have been an inadvertently-created divergent reality, otherwise said alterations would have stayed contained within that reality, as opposed to the character's original/native reality.

See what I'm saying? Again, I am not arguing what you've said-- I realize the concept Marvel has established. This is just a huge inconsistency that I'd never noticed until now.

Originally posted by Mr Master
We can't rely on writer intentions if these intentions even remotely dispute and/or confuse on panel showings.

You should know since you shut down facts lovely when I posted Dorkin's "intentions" concerning Mxy-WF.

I agreed with you cause via Other books you were able to prove how Mxy did more, than Dorkin had ever imagined or intended in the actual book. If a character is able to change the present/future by altering the past, then we know the writer almost certainly wasn't considering/using the "other points in time=other universes" concept, because changing an event in one universe shouldn't affect a completely different universe.

That's how I see it, at least. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007

In comics, the past does still exist, though. This is how numerous characters over the years have gone back in time in order to change something in the present/future.

...And if they can change the present/future via altering the past, then clearly the past they visited must not have been an inadvertently-created divergent reality, otherwise said alterations would have stayed contained within that reality, as opposed to the character's original/native reality.

See what I'm saying? Again, I am not arguing what you've said-- I realize the concept Marvel has established. This is just a huge inconsistency that I'd never noticed until now.
Oh no, I agree Galan, I was just pointing out how it realistically makes no sense regardless.

What's DC's take on this that you know of?
Originally posted by Galan007

If a character is able to change the present/future by altering the past, then we know the writer almost certainly wasn't considering/using the "other points in time=other universes" concept, because changing an event in one universe shouldn't affect a completely different universe.
I feel you brotha, but in Marvel, that's the way it's always worked senseless as it is.

Basically, no matter what we theorize the writer intended, with out doubt, if the writer made a story involving the Past or Future, his story ends up here:

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

Even Hickman's Adult Franklin, which I remember arguing being from an alternate reality, while others were adamant about him being from 616 because he recognized his parents or whatever, when in fact, that's the same reaction every character that's visited the Present (616) from the Future (whichever reality) has.

^ no, not all stories, for instance, there's a 2009 story written by Peter David that was an exception (read the whole scan carefully):

http://i.imgur.com/4jRlCwO.jpg

Marvel is such a big universe that you can't be really sure about anything.


Might as well post what i have regarding DC:

It depends, not all time travel (backwards) end up being the same.

To take an example where traveling to the past diverges, from superman v2 #61: Waverider prevents a tragedy to his younger-self, which diverges into an alt. timeline and an alt. version of himself:

http://i.imgur.com/vqHqF0m.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/NgIlbTd.jpg?1

Another form of time travel: For instance, we learn in Booster Gold comics, that changing the past is not even possible, which means that everything is pre-destined (everything already happened and traveling to the past while changing an event doesn't result in a divergence because it has already happened). Morrison uses this concept when writing his Batman: the return of Bruce Wayne story:

The hyperadapter was chasing Bruce Wayne through time, in the end the hyperadapter takes the form of a bat, and while in this form, Bruce hurls it into a time bubble sending it into the past:

http://i.imgur.com/ZBoq0eJ.jpg

This same hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was revealed to be the same bat that originally inspired bruce to become batman:

http://i.imgur.com/JpsgWSo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3MizPBG.jpg

and that's how it was originally shown that Batman was inspired by a bat, in Batman #404:

http://i.imgur.com/7YY4adb.jpg

DC encyclopedia:

http://i.imgur.com/jaBNvgc.jpg?1

notice the same scene with the exact same dialogue, specially in the end: "i shall become a bat"

See? You can't change anything as far as Morrison is concerned, you'd expect that - by traveling into the past - the hyperadapter was supposed to change history while in fact it was revealed to have been "destined to happen", because the hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was the one who's "supposed" to inspire young bruce to become batman.

I can also show other forms of time travel which don't fit with others, but i don't have the time to get into that currently.

Good points all around

Originally posted by operator616

^ no, not all stories, for instance, there's a 2009 story written
by Peter David that was an exception (read the whole scan carefully):
http://i.imgur.com/4jRlCwO.jpg
Marvel is such a big universe that you can't be really sure about anything.
That's a stipulation though friend, the "Doomlock."
Otherwise the exact same principle I highlighted applies as explained
in that very scan.
I'm also sure about where Marvel stands on this, unless its been
changed without my knowledge.

I enjoyed the DC accounts you presented though. cause I wasn't sure where they stood.

Cool. then ill give you non-stipulated examples:

Fantastic Four #553, says that it's possible to time travel without creating another timeline:

Changing the past is possible:

http://i.imgur.com/OozaJpk.jpg?1

.....and here it's explained that time travel is possible without creating divergent timeline as long as it's minor:

http://i.imgur.com/FStySQs.jpg?1

^ i recall reading a marvunapp page regarding this concept, though i can't find that page atm, maybe later.

yet we know that this contradicts the "general" marvel cosmology.....


another example: there's an Alpha flight arc called: Days of future present, past principle. In this story traveling back to the past alters the events in the present

http://i.imgur.com/ux3y6j2.jpg?1

2006 handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/vOMYSXS.jpg?2

......while in fact we know that according to the cosmology traveling to the past creates a divergent timeline which means it shouldn't have any effect on the "present timeline"

and this is also shown across numerous titles. Let me know if you want them.

So like i said: Although Marvel has established this as part of its cosmology it also depends on the writer.

-- which brings us back to the topic regarding Genesis: imo, the writer's intend is what should be taken into account. And in that same Marvel Premiere story Steve hinted that he's not using the marvel cosmology through the Mordo scan which i posted earlier to clarify my point:

http://i.imgur.com/VgSwi8t.jpg?1

Since Mordo was going to change the past to impact the present this means that time travel doesn't result in any divergences according to that story (meaning Steve is NOT applying the marvel cosmology)

anyway, that's how i see it.

Great story w Genesis

Originally posted by operator616
.....and here it's explained that time travel is possible without creating divergent timeline as long as it's minor:

http://i.imgur.com/FStySQs.jpg?1 This right here pretty much retcons Marvel's previously established concept that "other points in time=other universes".

Originally posted by Galan007
This right here pretty much retcons Marvel's previously established concept that "other points in time=other universes".
Fun fact : The moron that wrote that also wrote BP armbarring the SS.

Cool, so it's canon then.

Doesn't change anything.

Originally posted by operator616

Fantastic Four #553, says that it's possible to time travel without creating another timeline:

Changing the past is possible:
http://i.imgur.com/OozaJpk.jpg?1

.....and here it's explained that time travel is possible without creating divergent timeline as long as it's minor:
http://i.imgur.com/FStySQs.jpg?1

yet we know that this contradicts the "general" marvel cosmology.....
I disagree this contradicts much.

The First scan: I know the Past can be changed.

Second scan: "Minor disruptions work themselves out"

Basically means the "Time-Traveler's presence was irrelevant/insignificant/inconsequential.

Otherwise, an alternate universe is created. (my point still stands)
Originally posted by operator616

another example: there's an Alpha flight arc called: Days of future present, past principle. In this story traveling back to the past alters the events in the present
http://i.imgur.com/ux3y6j2.jpg?1
2006 handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/vOMYSXS.jpg?2
......while in fact we know that according to the cosmology traveling to the past creates a divergent timeline which means it shouldn't have any effect on the "present timeline"

and this is also shown across numerous titles. Let me know if you want them.
Again, yur confusing yurself my friend.
I already stated one can change the Present from the Past, even though the Past is located in an Alternate reality.

It's crazy but that's how it works.
Originally posted by operator616

So like i said: Although Marvel has established this as part of its cosmology it also depends on the writer.
-- which brings us back to the topic regarding Genesis: imo, the writer's intend is what should be taken into account. And in that same Marvel Premiere story Steve hinted that he's not using the marvel cosmology through the Mordo scan which i posted earlier to clarify my point:
http://i.imgur.com/VgSwi8t.jpg?1
Since Mordo was going to change the past to impact the present this means that time travel doesn't result in any divergences according to that story (meaning Steve is NOT applying the marvel cosmology)

anyway, that's how i see it.
I disagree. And that Mordo scan proves nothing imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Second scan: "Minor disruptions work themselves out"

Basically means the "Time-Traveler's presence was irrelevant/insignificant/inconsequential.

Otherwise, an alternate universe is created. (my point still stands) It means that as long as the change(s) made to the past are minor, the timeline doesn't diverge into an alternate reality. If the change(s) made are major/large-scale, however, an alternate reality will spring into being.

But then the obvious question arises: what constitutes a 'minor' change to the past, and what constitutes a 'major' change to the past? I believe that is when writer intent comes into play.

Originally posted by Galan007
This right here pretty much retcons Marvel's previously established concept that "other points in time=other universes".

More like 1 writer retcons this concept. Because it's been ignored.


I found the marvunapp page, though (see: conservation of causality)

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ttapp.htm

Originally posted by Mr Master


Second scan: "Minor disruptions work themselves out"

Basically means the "Time-Traveler's presence was irrelevant/insignificant/inconsequential.

Otherwise, an alternate universe is created. (my point still stands)



Again, yur confusing yurself my friend.
I already stated one can change the Present from the Past, even though the Past is located in an Alternate reality.

It's crazy but that's how it works.



Already explained by Galan, and confirmed by the official handbook (marvunapp). Not that im saying it retcons the marvel cosmology for reasons already stated in my previous post.



Right. Im "confused". The x factor scan which i posted earlier says that the present timeline is not affected if one travels to the past but merely creates a divergent timeline:

http://i.imgur.com/JZJHFpH.jpg?1

And that same FF issue (553) explains this particular concept and says that going to the past to change is impossible since it always ends up in being diverged:

http://i.imgur.com/qNII8AJ.jpg

X factor v3 #44:

http://i.imgur.com/MpDDzq6.jpg?1

Changing the past ONLY creates ....

but again: the alpha flight arc doesn't use this concept and it shows the present being affected by being in the past.....and i can show you several other examples. so there's a clear contradiction here

You can clearly see how a writer's intention differs from the other when it comes to time travel, despite the fact that marvel has an established concept.

Originally posted by operator616
^ no, not all stories, for instance, there's a 2009 story written by Peter David that was an exception (read the whole scan carefully):

http://i.imgur.com/4jRlCwO.jpg

Marvel is such a big universe that you can't be really sure about anything.


Might as well post what i have regarding DC:

It depends, not all time travel (backwards) end up being the same.

To take an example where traveling to the past diverges, from superman v2 #61: Waverider prevents a tragedy to his younger-self, which diverges into an alt. timeline and an alt. version of himself:

http://i.imgur.com/vqHqF0m.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/NgIlbTd.jpg?1

Another form of time travel: For instance, we learn in Booster Gold comics, that changing the past is not even possible, which means that everything is pre-destined (everything already happened and traveling to the past while changing an event doesn't result in a divergence because it has already happened). Morrison uses this concept when writing his Batman: the return of Bruce Wayne story:

The hyperadapter was chasing Bruce Wayne through time, in the end the hyperadapter takes the form of a bat, and while in this form, Bruce hurls it into a time bubble sending it into the past:

http://i.imgur.com/ZBoq0eJ.jpg

This same hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was revealed to be the same bat that originally inspired bruce to become batman:

http://i.imgur.com/JpsgWSo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3MizPBG.jpg

and that's how it was originally shown that Batman was inspired by a bat, in Batman #404:

http://i.imgur.com/7YY4adb.jpg

DC encyclopedia:

http://i.imgur.com/jaBNvgc.jpg?1

notice the same scene with the exact same dialogue, specially in the end: "i shall become a bat"

See? You can't change anything as far as Morrison is concerned, you'd expect that - by traveling into the past - the hyperadapter was supposed to change history while in fact it was revealed to have been "destined to happen", because the hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was the one who's "supposed" to inspire young bruce to become batman.

I can also show other forms of time travel which don't fit with others, but i don't have the time to get into that currently.

Another example, of course, would be Flash becoming the lightning bolt that created the Flash etc etc...

Or Zoom altering the future(on a global+ scale) by altering the past.

Originally posted by Galan007


Or Zoom altering the future(on a global+ scale) by altering the past.
That was barry. Shame on you galan.

uhuh


DCU has quite literally a hundred examples like that. In DC you can change the future by changing the past without creating a divergent timeline AND if you remove the cause the reality would cease to exist which was changed like in Superman/Batman or DC 2000 or several such examples and not become a parallel reality like Age of Apocalypse. Different companies, different rules.

srug

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was barry. ...Who wouldn't have done that(ie. pulled the entire speed force into himself in order to travel to the past and stop Zoom, which inadvertently shattered/altered time) had Zoom not murdered his mother in the first place. uhuh

Zoom's transgressions in the past were the catalyst that started everything. *FlashFact*

Originally posted by Galan007
...Who wouldn't have done that(ie. pulled the entire speed force into himself in order to travel to the past and stop Zoom, which inadvertently shattered/altered time) had Zoom not murdered his mother in the first place. uhuh

Zoom's transgressions in the past were the catalyst that started everything. *FlashFact*
It was still all Barry's work.

uhuh



Zoom had murdered Barry's mom and framed his Dad way back in Rebirth. He still got killed by batman's old ass dad. How does that makes you feel inside galan?

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was still all Barry's work.

uhuh

Zoom had murdered Barry's mom and framed his Dad way back in Rebirth. He still got killed by batman's old ass dad. How does that makes you feel inside galan? Zoom used Barry's connection to the speed force against him/the world. Zoom is the linchpin to everything that happened in Flashpoint! EVERYTHING!!!!!! evillaugh

I don't mind Thomas killing Zoom(as ridiculous as it was), because Zoom is still the only character that was able to not just beat Barry /w/ 'Johns-force' amp, but utterly shitstomp him(on more than one occasion, mind you.) That, in itself, is massively impressive.

Originally posted by Galan007

It means that as long as the change(s) made to the past are minor, the timeline doesn't diverge into an alternate reality. If the change(s) made are major/large-scale, however, an alternate reality will spring into being.

But then the obvious question arises: what constitutes a 'minor' change to the past, and what constitutes a 'major' change to the past? I believe that is when writer intent comes into play.
While I appreciate the break down of the meaning which was exactly how I understood it when I read the scans, it still means that the "minor change" is basically insignificant if reality can just wash it away by accepting the change into its continuum. Feel me brotha?

Imo, a minor change has to be 'affecting something in a reality that had no affect on anyone else in said reality.' eg. like messing with something in-animate. I mean cause if you even ask someone for the time, you could end up disrupting that person's entire history.

Originally posted by Mr Master
While I appreciate the break down of the meaning which was exactly how I understood it when I read the scans, it still means that the "minor change" is basically insignificant if reality can just wash it away by accepting the change into its continuum. Feel me brotha?

Imo, a minor change has to be 'affecting something in a reality that had no affect on anyone else in said reality.' eg. like messing with something in-animate. I mean cause if you even ask someone for the time, you could end up disrupting that person's entire history. Oh okay, didn't take that from your former post. We're on the same page, then.

Could be. Although I still believe that minor and major changes(especially the former) would be defined/used differently by different writers, writing different arcs. There's definitely some proverbial 'wiggle room' in the concept itself, which is likely why not all writers unanimously conform to said concept.

Originally posted by operator616

Already explained by Galan, and confirmed by the official handbook (marvunapp). Not that im saying it retcons the marvel cosmology for reasons already stated in my previous post.
"already explained?" ... Marvunapp's confirmation?
I agree, neither retcons or disputes my points good friend.
I did appreciate your confirmed explanations concerning DC though.
Originally posted by operator616

The x factor scan which i posted earlier says that the present timeline is not affected if one travels to the past but merely creates a divergent timeline:
http://i.imgur.com/JZJHFpH.jpg?1
And that same FF issue (553) explains this particular concept and says that going to the past to change is impossible since it always ends up in being diverged:
http://i.imgur.com/qNII8AJ.jpg
X factor v3 #44:
http://i.imgur.com/MpDDzq6.jpg?1
Changing the past ONLY creates ....
but again: the alpha flight arc doesn't use this concept and it shows the present being affected by being in the past.....and i can show you several other examples. so there's a clear contradiction here
I have many examples too. But I noticed I left something out in my post, which is why I now confused you and made you post things I already know. My bad. I didn't add, you can change the present from the past but in reality what you may end up doing is destroying the multiverse instead. Traveling to the Past (before the Present) is dangerous business.
Originally posted by operator616

You can clearly see how a writer's intention differs from the other when it comes to time travel, despite the fact that marvel has an established concept.
I really haven't seen much contradictions tbh. While they may use a different method or two, I believe they stay rooted to the same core idea opr.

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ttapp.htm

Conservation of Causality:

"However, as different methods & energies are utilized in time travel, it would seem most likely that these may also play some factor in the likelihood of Divergence as opposed to modification of the existing reality"

Beautiful find opr, I love this page, ... it also solidifies my point, although there are other points of views I noticed but they don't stray to far from Marvel's original stance imo.

The "Divergence Theory" explanation relates the most to Marvel showings imo.
(not just via dialogue, but more convincingly via actual action)

Love Marvanapp

Originally posted by Galan007
Zoom used Barry's connection to the speed force against him/the world. Zoom is the linchpin to everything that happened in Flashpoint! EVERYTHING!!!!!! evillaugh

I don't mind Thomas killing Zoom(as ridiculous as it was), because Zoom is still the only character that was able to not just beat Barry /w/ 'Johns-force' amp, but utterly shitstomp him(on more than one occasion, mind you.) That, in itself, is massively impressive.
Nah, barry is. Deal it with zoomy.

uhuh

I saw your tear soaked monitor.

vin

Originally posted by Mr Master
"already explained?" ... Marvunapp's confirmation?
I agree, neither retcons or disputes my points good friend.
I did appreciate your confirmed explanations concerning DC though.

I have many examples too. But I noticed I left something out in my post, which is why I now confused you and made you post things I already know. My bad. I didn't add, you can change the present from the past but in reality what you may end up doing is destroying the multiverse instead. Traveling to the Past (before the Present) is dangerous business.

I really haven't seen much contradictions tbh. While they may use a different method or two, I believe they stay rooted to the same core idea opr.

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ttapp.htm

Conservation of Causality:

"However, as different methods & energies are utilized in time travel, it would seem most likely that these may also play some factor in the likelihood of Divergence as opposed to modification of the existing reality"

Beautiful find opr, I love this page, ... it also solidifies my point, although there are other points of views I noticed but they don't stray to far from Marvel's original stance imo.

The "Divergence Theory" explanation relates the most to Marvel showings imo.
(not just via dialogue, but more convincingly via actual action)


according to that issue, here's an example of a minor change:

http://i.imgur.com/LQzrwRL.jpg

So it tells us that Lincoln may have originally died other than in the theater but someone messed with the past (prevented the assassination) and the timeline adjusted him to being assassinated in the theater.

That's an example of a minor change. Lincoln definitely has an affect on the reality that surrounds him, so no, it's not necessarily messing with something/someone who doesn't have any effects on others.


Ok, that was actually shown (like in the Legion Quest arc), but that doesn't contradict my point. The example i provided (of traveling to the past which impacts the present) doesn't say that the multiverse was threatened. Nor do the many others (if you want examples all you have to do is ask).


i fail to realize how you don't see a contradiction here, take a look at those 2 scans:

http://i.imgur.com/qNII8AJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ux3y6j2.jpg?1

first one says: "going to the past to change the future is futile" (and explains the reason: traveling to the past always creates a divergent reality)

2nd scans says: "...on a trip to the past -- unaware of the profound effect it would have on their present" (i also showed you the handbook confirmation of this, and the story doesn't say that the multiverse was threatened as a result)