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The strike team of the 4 Empire protagonists from Swtor show up to take Sidious down, Malgus style. Does Sidious fall as Baldy did, or does he have the balls to walk away?

All characters at the end of their storylines.

Darth Nox
Second Emperor's Wrath
Cipher 9
Grand Champion of the Great Hunt

vs

Emperor Sidious in all his power. Assumption that this team defeated Malgus.

Takes place in Palpatines throne room in the 1st Death Star, seen at the end of TFU.

Yea no, Sidious is going down.

Neph, give a quick rundown of Nox', Wrath's, 9's and Hunt's Force feats.

Cipher 9 and the Hunter aren't Force users, so theres that.

Nox, you should be very aware of by now. By herself she can shatter rock with her lightning and she has 5 powerful Force spirits enhancing her, leading to her complete stomp of Thanaton. She has good telepathy as shes able to dominate the will of even strong-willed people, good defenses with the spirits and excellent lightning and TK. When Thanaton tried to attack her with a lightsaber she stopped it in midair before forcing him to his knees with TK, then defeating him with lightning.

Others should describe the Wrath since I don't really know much about them. Blocked Baras' lightning. And um......

^^^

So you have not done your homework before creating this thread?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cipher 9 and the Hunter aren't Force users, so theres that.
Would they not be classified as fodder then?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox, you should be very aware of by now.
Admittedly, but I don't play the games, and for TOR, I've read only Deceived and Revan.


Originally posted by Nephthys
By herself she can shatter rock with her lightning
Not among the best example of lightning in the mythos, but fairly good.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and she has 5 powerful Force spirits enhancing her,
Is this the norm or did it only apply to said battle with Thanaton?

Originally posted by Nephthys
leading to her complete stomp of Thanaton.
What has Thanaton done?

I'm not mockering and trying to belittle the TOR team by asking those questions by the way, I'm just genuinely interested.


Originally posted by Nephthys
She has good telepathy as shes able to dominate the will of even strong-willed people, good defenses with the spirits and excellent lightning
Sounds good.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and TK.
Do you have any examples?

Originally posted by Nephthys
When Thanaton tried to attack her with a lightsaber she stopped it in midair before forcing him to his knees with TK, then defeating him with lightning.
Sounds fancy, but

Me
What has Thanaton done?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

So you have not done your homework before creating this thread?

I know basically what the Wrath has done: beats Jedi Master Noman Karr, beats Darth Vengean with Lord Draaghs help, beats Darth Ekkage with another Jedi Masters help (Vengean and Ekkage are Dark Council members), beats the possessed Emperor's Voice on Voss, beats Draagh on Corellia (after Draagh owns Vowrawn) and beats Darth Baras at the end of the game.

I just don't know about specific force feats since I haven't played the class much.

Nox alone is too much for RotS Sidious. About the only Sidious who does more than get TK'd over his desk and destroyed is DE Sidious, who is according to STRICT GL CANON, non-existent.

What about OT Sidious?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Would they not be classified as fodder then?

Not really. They've defeated Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. Cipher 9 might be fodder to Sidious, but likely not with his allies supporting him. He can still be extremely irritating with his stealth and gadgets. The Champ is actually really ****ing good, likely one of, if not the best Non-Force Sensitives in the mythos. He's defeated the undefeated Jedi Battlemaster Jun Seros, extremely fast and powerful Darth Tormen and Kellian Jarro, A Jedi Master who soloed over a hundred veteran madalorians in the Sack of Coruscant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Admittedly, but I don't play the games, and for TOR, I've read only Deceived and Revan.

Ok, but you really should have known all this from previous threads.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not among the best example of lightning in the mythos, but fairly good.

True, but this was Nox in Act 1 of the Inquisitor campaign, before they gained the power of 5 powerful force users, which hugely increase her power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Is this the norm or did it only apply to said battle with Thanaton?

Its the norm. The Inquisitor is the master of a technique that binds spirits to her and she can access their power freely.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What has Thanaton done?

I'm not mockering and trying to belittle the TOR team by asking those questions by the way, I'm just genuinely interested.

If you want info on Thanaton I suggest this thread and this thread.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sounds good.

Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Do you have any examples?

Mostly its pwning Thanaton in TK. I'll try to recall more TK feats if I can.

DE Sidious isn't non-existent until the new movie comes out. Until then, canon is canon. Anyways, if this is DE Sidious, I think it's too much for the team, as only Nox and Wrath would be actual factors.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DE Sidious isn't non-existent until the new movie comes out. Until then, canon is canon. Anyways, if this is DE Sidious, I think it's too much for the team, as only Nox and Wrath would be actual factors.

It's actually sarcasm, since Gideon is so hell-bent on literally interpreting the scripturesWords of GL on one specific issue, even though GL notes that there are "two worlds" and he doesn't police both of them, and considers in his own personal canon SW to begin and end with his movies and their immediate GL directed products; thus strictly speaking according to GL absolute canon, DE Sidious doesn't exist.

Further, in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine:
STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

Leland Chee's attempts to rationalize canon as well border on Insane Troll Logic, so I don't consider him any more valid than I would Random Poster X. The contradictions are so glaring he should be a case study on living fallacies.

Sidious (DE incarnation) lost to duo of Luke and Leia. Leia wasn't even a big deal during this time.

This Imperial Strike Team is much more potent then the aforementioned duo.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious (DE incarnation) lost to duo of Luke and Leia. Leia wasn't even a big deal during this time.

This Imperial Strike Team is much more potent then the aforementioned duo.

BUT HE HAD KNOWLEDGE FROM MILLIONS OF PLANETS THAT HE SOMEHOW MASTERED IN A HUMAN LIFETIME AND HE HAD A CRYSTAL OR SOMETHING AND HE CAN MAKE WORMHOLEZ.

WHY DO YOU FAIL TO SEE THIS LOGIC?

This is a good debate Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. They've defeated Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. Cipher 9 might be fodder to Sidious, but likely not with his allies supporting him. He can still be extremely irritating with his stealth and gadgets. The Champ is actually really ****ing good, likely one of, if not the best Non-Force Sensitives in the mythos. He's defeated the undefeated Jedi Battlemaster Jun Seros, extremely fast and powerful Darth Tormen and Kellian Jarro, A Jedi Master who soloed over a hundred veteran madalorians in the Sack of Coruscant.
Hmm...

Alright, but as they're non-Force sensitive, and for a strict comparison, they automatically cannot be faster than Maul who's accelerated his speed to five times the amount of a human, yet could not even see Sidious' movements.

I don't see how they last more than half a second each, but you probably know something I don't.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, but you really should have known all this from previous threads.
Indeed. I'm behind regarding Nox, Barsen'thor and all the Dark Council members except Nyriss. I'll look up a few threads and see what I can find.



Originally posted by Nephthys
True, but this was Nox in Act 1 of the Inquisitor campaign, before they gained the power of 5 powerful force users, which hugely increase her power.
Okay. It would be fair to assume that her lightning is Malgus-level at best, and I don't think Sidious would have any problem with it.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Its the norm. The Inquisitor is the master of a technique that binds spirits to her and she can access their power freely.
What kind of powers?




Originally posted by Nephthys
If you want info on Thanaton I suggest this thread and this thread.
Thanks. What I got from that was the Thanaton beat Exal Kressh (what has she done?) and cracked some stone with lightning. As I hear it, Nox beat Thanaton with telekinesis, so for it to be particularly impressive, you would have to showcase some of Thanaton's telekinetic showings.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Mostly its pwning Thanaton in TK. I'll try to recall more TK feats if I can.
Okay. Report back when you've done your duty.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious (DE incarnation) lost to duo of Luke and Leia. Leia wasn't even a big deal during this time.

This Imperial Strike Team is much more potent then the aforementioned duo.

Was that not strictly saber combat?

Just some simple info that you may or may not know, Intrepid, Thanaton's more major feats with lightning are destroying metal with his lightning during his time as an acolyte, and as a Sith Lord his casual lightning blew up stone. His Force Lightning storm was of enough magnitude to practically tear apart the Dark Council Chamber. He could also fly with the force like a lightning-jetpack.

For his regular Force Lightning, Nox simply batted it away with his hands like Dooku did to his own while fighting Yoda. Nox tanked Thanaton's Force Lightning storm pretty well, despite it's pretty massive power.

With TK he's stomped Thanaton pretty thoroughly, though, and I'm pretty sure he's canonically a Sith Sorcerer. He's put up barriers that deflected some pretty powerful lightning, and he's got 5 notable Sith Spirits at his disposal for a power source.

Nox is pretty beastly in his own right. The Wrath is just as good, really. This team's got a decent shot.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Was that not strictly saber combat?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/63715/1719332-de2y.jpg

DE Luke tanks blaster bolts and TK's them like they are guppies. Clearly, Sidious thought his Force mastery would not avail him!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Hmm...

Alright, but as they're non-Force sensitive, and for a strict comparison, they automatically cannot be faster than Maul who's accelerated his speed to five times the amount of a human, yet could not even see Sidious' movements.

I don't see how they last more than half a second each, but you probably know something I don't.

Thats not entirely true, as they could be cyborgs with enhanced reflexes and senses, or they could be utilising implants and adrenals to the same effect. Take the Voidhound from the other thread for instance, capable of dodging blaster shots fired from behind them. Non-Force sensitives do not automatically equal slow.

And as I said they've dealt with Jedi and Sith. In the Hunters case all of the fights I mention occur with the Hunter already within lightsaber striking distance. Darth Tormen once blitzed a Sith Lord who challenged him to a duel; as soon as he issued the duel Tormen 'instantly lunged forward and beheaded him.' And yet he failed to do that to the Hunter while they were similarly within arms reach.

Besides, wasn't that speed only from Maul running in a straight line? And at the time he failed to perceive Sidious he was exhausted and wounded.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Indeed. I'm behind regarding Nox, Barsen'thor and all the Dark Council members except Nyriss. I'll look up a few threads and see what I can find.

Odd, I was sure I'd discussed them with you quite a lot.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Okay. It would be fair to assume that her lightning is Malgus-level at best, and I don't think Sidious would have any problem with it.

I disagree, I don't think Sidious would just shrug off Nox's attacks. I'd put Nox comfortably at Vaders level in the Force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What kind of powers?

Just a general power boost. She's able to channel the combined power of herself plus 4 Sith Lords and 1 Voss Mystic into her defensive or offensive abilities.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thanks. What I got from that was the Thanaton beat Exal Kressh (what has she done?) and cracked some stone with lightning. As I hear it, Nox beat Thanaton with telekinesis, so for it to be particularly impressive, you would have to showcase some of Thanaton's telekinetic showings.

Exal Kressh was a Child of the Emperor, embued with a portion of Vitiates power. As such she is incredibly powerful. Average Children were good fights for the Barsen'thor, showing to get hits in or push her, and their dark power 'screams' through the Force.

Thanaton has other thins than that. He's described as 'supremely powerful' and possessing of 'insurmountable strength.' His lightning cracked the stone of the floor just from hitting Nox, transforming into a swirling nexus of energy. He's also destroyed a large metal structure wit hhis lightning, a good 40 years before his peak in TOR. At the same time he displayed enough TK skill to disarm 2 guards, choke one and levitate the other at the same time. He's also able to use his lightning to fly. Lastly Thanaton was powerful enough easily break through Nox's barriers despite Nox already being amped by the power of 2 ghosts, one of which was one of the greatest sorcerers in Imperial history.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Okay. Report back when you've done your duty.

I wasn't able to think of anything, but really owning Thanaton like she did is enough to put her way up there.

But DE Luke is probably stronger than the Wrath/Nox, but I doubt both of them together. But then you have to factor in Leia's BM, which would most likely put Luke above both. Even then Sidious was beaten in saber combat and then prepared to destroy them with Force Storm. Luke and Leia of course make it go awry and Sidious experiences one of multiple deaths.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats not entirely true, as they could be cyborgs with enhanced reflexes and senses, or they could be utilising implants and adrenals to the same effect. Take the Voidhound from the other thread for instance, capable of dodging blaster shots fired from behind them. Non-Force sensitives do not automatically equal slow.

And as I said they've dealt with Jedi and Sith. In the Hunters case all of the fights I mention occur with the Hunter already within lightsaber striking distance. Darth Tormen once blitzed a Sith Lord who challenged him to a duel; as soon as he issued the duel Tormen 'instantly lunged forward and beheaded him.' And yet he failed to do that to the Hunter while they were similarly within arms reach.
Fair, but I have an extremely hard time imagining them to be faster than someone as physically trained as Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, wasn't that speed only from Maul running in a straight line?
Yep.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
Maul angled to the middle of the narrow avenue. His speeder bike was parked not far away; he could activate the slave circuit by remote control and have it here within a few minutes at most. But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And at the time he failed to perceive Sidious he was exhausted and wounded.
Not true.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Odd, I was sure I'd discussed them with you quite a lot.
Nope.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I disagree, I don't think Sidious would just shrug off Nox's attacks.
Sidious' own lightning is far more potent than Nox' own, and he is equipped with his lightsaber which should be sufficient.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd put Nox comfortably at Vaders level in the Force.
I'm extremely skeptical of this. It might be true, but I rank Vader very high, and honestly, I'm not sure how ragdolling Thanaton is above ragdolling Kenobi, Ventress etc..?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Just a general power boost. She's able to channel the combined power of herself plus 4 Sith Lords and 1 Voss Mystic into her defensive or offensive abilities.
Okay.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Exal Kressh was a Child of the Emperor, embued with a portion of Vitiates power. As such she is incredibly powerful.
Assuming this is the standard, that's extremely vague.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Average Children were good fights for the Barsen'thor, showing to get hits in or push her,
So what?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and their dark power 'screams' through the Force.
lol




Originally posted by Nephthys
He's described as 'supremely powerful'
I think this standard applies to almost everyone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and possessing of 'insurmountable strength.'
Force strength or physical strength?

Originally posted by Nephthys
His lightning cracked the stone of the floor just from hitting Nox, transforming into a swirling nexus of energy. He's also destroyed a large metal structure wit hhis lightning, a good 40 years before his peak in TOR.
This is all well and good, but I'm not more impressed by Nox' manhandling of him than before.

Originally posted by Nephthys
At the same time he displayed enough TK skill to disarm 2 guards, choke one and levitate the other at the same time.
I think we both know that this feat isn't very impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's also able to use his lightning to fly.
It appears lightning is his speciality.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lastly Thanaton was powerful enough easily break through Nox's barriers despite Nox already being amped by the power of 2 ghosts, one of which was one of the greatest sorcerers in Imperial history.
I don't get that. Thanaton broke through Nox' barrier easily, but then goes on to get humiliated by the latter?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fair, but I have an extremely hard time imagining them to be faster than someone as physically trained as Maul.
Speed is just one factor; they pack sufficient firepower and experience to adequately deal with the threat of Force-users, even powerful ones.

Now in this scenario, we have two of these individuals (with feats on par with or better than those of Maul) working in unison along with two other (Force-user) powerhouses who can afford these two ample time to harm Sidious at leisure from safe distance.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious' own lightning is far more potent than Nox' own, and he is equipped with his lightsaber which should be sufficient.
This is your assumption; not a concrete fact. Nox also have mastery in Sith Sorcery to complement his dark side abilities. In addition, there is a limit to effectiveness of lightsaber based defense against Sith applications.

Some examples:-

- Vitiate disarmed an entire Jedi Strike Team with his FLS, possibly destroying lightsabers of his opponents in the process.
- Exal Kressh disarmed Thanaton with a single burst of her lightning, destroying the lightsaber of her opponent in the process.
- Malgus rendered lightsaber(s) based defenses of a Jedi Master with his FLS.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm extremely skeptical of this. It might be true, but I rank Vader very high, and honestly, I'm not sure how ragdolling Thanaton is above ragdolling Kenobi, Ventress etc..?
Seriously? Thanaton is canonically "extremely" powerful in the ways of the Force; you insult Thanaton by comparing him with the likes of Kenobi and Ventress in Force Mastery aspects.

Nox packs so much firepower that he actually represents a Strike Team of bad@sses packed into one. Nox was powerful even in natural form (like Dooku or possibly better) but significantly augmented his firepower further through unnatural ways (Hint: Sith Sorcery) by bending some of the most dangerous Sith spirits to his will and use utilize their combined might to bolster his own effectiveness.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Assuming this is the standard, that's extremely vague.
She have (very) impressive feats:-

1. Effortlessely Hurled some large droids towards Thanaton like a missiles with her telekinetic abilities.
2. Comfortably destroyed/Collapsed portions of structures with her telekinetic abilities.
3. Critically damaged a "space station" with her telekinetic abilities, causing it to fall from its orbit.
3. Force-pushed Thanaton right through a column of chambers.
4. Disarmed Thanaton with just a single burst of her lightning, destroying his lightsaber in the process.
5. Effortlessly shrugged of countless pieces of glass hurled towards her by Thanaton by forming a protection bubble around her.

In addition to the aforementioned feats, she excelled in martial aspects of combat and also packed great tolerance for pain.

So I don't get the vague part at all.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So what?
So what? Those are powerful Force-users on average. Bersen'thor is a Force prodigy herself and if someone is able to influence her with his/her Force abilities, that someone is a BIG DEAL.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think this standard applies to almost everyone.
Provide evidence.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Force strength or physical strength?
Both.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is all well and good, but I'm not more impressed by Nox' manhandling of him than before.
Because you are clueless about both. You need to delve a lot deeper into SWTOR lore to comprehend their capabilities properly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think we both know that this feat isn't very impressive.
Well, he effortlessly disarmed even other Force-users in this manner. In addition, he have history of raiding enemy fortresses and succeeding much like Vader.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It appears lightning is his speciality.
Indeed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't get that. Thanaton broke through Nox' barrier easily, but then goes on to get humiliated by the latter?
Nox = powerful Force-user in natural form (like Dooku or possibly better)

Nox + combined might of deadly Sith spirits x 2 < Thanaton (a supremely powerful Sith Lord)

Nox + combined might of deadly Sith spirits x 4 or above > Thanaton

Get the memo?

Ignore function strikes again.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fair, but I have an extremely hard time imagining them to be faster than someone as physically trained as Maul.

It isn't like Sidious is going to be constantly moving his whole body. They can still shoot at him with blasters and missiles. Even if Sidious is fast, the latter will lock on to him and heat-seek him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yep.

I wouldn't say that necessarily translates into how fast he can fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not true.

Yes true.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious' own lightning is far more potent than Nox' own, and he is equipped with his lightsaber which should be sufficient.

Again I wouldn't says Sidious' lightning was far more powerful than Nox'. As an apprentice Nox was powerful enough to completely demolish a stone pedestal with lightning. If we contrast this with say, Dooku's lightning, which only manages to chip a wall in AotC its obvious Nox's personal lightning is already very powerful. Nox is in fact more powerful than any of the ghosts she possesses seeing as at one point she defeats all of them in succession. And then Nox gets 5 Sith Lords worth of power to use to amp herself so logically her lightning should be boosted by (several?) magnitudes. I'd argue that Nox should have some of the most potent lightning in the mythos, approaching Bane and Sidious' own.

Sidious likely could block Nox's lightning with difficulty, but you forget that he'll be doing so while contending with 3 other combatants as well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm extremely skeptical of this. It might be true, but I rank Vader very high, and honestly, I'm not sure how ragdolling Thanaton is above ragdolling Kenobi, Ventress etc..?

Perhaps if I just post Nox defeating Thanaton so you can judge for yourself:

5m-9jDpLEDo

Also I don't recall Vader ragdolling Kenobi or Ventress.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Assuming this is the standard, that's extremely vague.

Not if you take into account the thing I say after that which makes it less vague through posting a feat. But yes the Children are all imparted with the same amount of Vitiates power except for the First Son, their leader, so all of their power should be the same.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So what?

So the Barsen'thor is one of the most powerful Jedi in history. I put her at No 4 on my top Jedi list. The Barsen'thor has thrown school bus sized chunks of metal around casually. She's smashed through a 2-story tall blast door about a meter thick with a one-hand push. And smashed through a Rakatan vault door that was said to be impenetrable. Tanked an explosion that vaporised a blast door right to her face (it destroyed the door and she was not harmed). She's so skilled and powerful as a padawan that a trandoshan believed she was the manifestation of his deity. She was more powerful than her master at the age of 4 that she was at 15. She's defeated 5 Jedi Masters and 6 Children of the Emperor. She defeated the First Son, a being imbued with Vitiates power who was able to shield the presence of hundreds of Children across the galaxy. While severely weakened through repeated use of a technique so taxing it killed the last Jedi who used it the Barsen'thor fought through a Star Destroyer of mentally-dominated and alchemy-enhanced Republic troops and defeated an Ancient Sith Lord who was drawing power from hundreds of Jedi Masters.

Being able to throw the Barsen'thor back and put them on their ass with lightning is highly impressive.

In addition I'll just repost Legends list of her feats:

She have (very) impressive feats:-

1. Effortlessely Hurled some large droids towards Thanaton like a missiles with her telekinetic abilities.
2. Comfortably destroyed/Collapsed portions of structures with her telekinetic abilities.
3. Critically damaged a "space station" with her telekinetic abilities, causing it to fall from its orbit.
3. Force-pushed Thanaton right through a column of chambers.
4. Disarmed Thanaton with just a single burst of her lightning, destroying his lightsaber in the process.
5. Effortlessly shrugged of countless pieces of glass hurled towards her by Thanaton by forming a protection bubble around her.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

It speaks of their power. Despite the power of the Emperor, the Sith of the Empire or the Dread Masters when the Council feels the revealed strength of the Children its akin to a scream across the galaxy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think this standard applies to almost everyone.

Not really. At the least it indicates that he is a hugely powerful Sith. I mean, he was a Dark Council Member and thus one of the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Imagine someone pwning Kit Fisto or Kenobi with ease. Except that while those two are duelists, Thanaton is a Force specialist.

I'd compare it to someone contemptibly owning Dooku with the Force myself. Surely such a feat would elevate them to the upper echelons of the Sith.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Force strength or physical strength?

Force strength.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is all well and good, but I'm not more impressed by Nox' manhandling of him than before.

That's your business. I cannot force you to accept Thanatons power. I've laid out the facts and argued them as eloquently as effort allows. If its not convincing to you I'm not bothered.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think we both know that this feat isn't very impressive.

I would say its a good feat of skill with telekinesis

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It appears lightning is his speciality.

I would say so. Lightning and sorcery. He defeats Nox the first time with a ritual he's able to use off the cuff.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't get that. Thanaton broke through Nox' barrier easily, but then goes on to get humiliated by the latter?

Nox was still developing as a Force User and hadn't reached her peak yet. And theres the fact that Nox only possessed 2 ghosts at the time, as opposed to the 5 she possessed in their final battle. The fact that Thanaton was still able to easily break through her barrier though is hugely impressive and indicative of Thanatons place as one of the most powerful Sith in Imperial history. I'll just repost my previous argument with regards to this feat:

HzCBf8RZ4pI

15.30. Note that at this time Nox was already a powerful Sith able to beat Khem Val ("Powerful, cunning and ruthless enough to slay even the strongest Force users" + "A near-perfect killing machine", kill Terentateks, killed a Sith Lord with her Force power drained from her and shatter stone with lightning and was amped by the power of 2 Sith Lords (one of which was one of the greatest Sorcerers in the history of the Empire and another had slain hundreds of sith who trespassed in his tomb) already. And Thanaton kills her in 5 seconds.

Oh and btw, when I said this:

"In addition I'll just repost Legends list of her feats:

She have (very) impressive feats:-

1. Effortlessely Hurled some large droids towards Thanaton like a missiles with her telekinetic abilities.
2. Comfortably destroyed/Collapsed portions of structures with her telekinetic abilities.
3. Critically damaged a "space station" with her telekinetic abilities, causing it to fall from its orbit.
3. Force-pushed Thanaton right through a column of chambers.
4. Disarmed Thanaton with just a single burst of her lightning, destroying his lightsaber in the process.
5. Effortlessly shrugged of countless pieces of glass hurled towards her by Thanaton by forming a protection bubble around her."

I was talking about Exal Kressh. Not the Barsen'thor.

Does Sidious know they're coming?

No. The first he knows of them is when they walk in. No amping or prep for either team.

He opens up a can of Force storm-grade whoopass.

Ok.

No because mere Skywalkers working in harmony cut off Palpatine's connection to the storm.

DE Sidious is weaksauce.

This isn't DE Sids. If the Force storm Temp said was the Wormhole kind and not the other kind which is dumb because having two techniques with the same name is confusing, then none of that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This isn't DE Sids. If the Force storm Temp said was the Wormhole kind and not the other kind which is dumb because having two techniques with the same name is confusing, then none of that.

Yeah, I meant the wormhole one. I do my best to not capitalize these powers like LeGenD does. I firmly believe that formally naming Force powers is really, really stupid.

Apparently, in-universe, it really is "move object." lolwtf

Which incarnation of Sidious is this, then? You said "all his power," so I'm assuming it's peak!Sidious.

Why do you keep calling Darth Nox a she?

Because we think of her as a she.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Why do you keep calling Darth Nox a she?

My Nox is a female zabrak. Also cuz the female voice is better and sexier than the male one.

Neph has this stupid, liberal/hippie idea that women are people too.

They may be subhuman, but they're definitely not sith lords.

Of course not.

They're often irrational, sadistic, violent, and prone to brutal mood swings.


Come to think of it, I'm not sure which group to which this description better applies.

Black people?

Wow, way to be insensitive and generalize an entire group of people.

yep

kill them now

ROTS Sidious can take this. Cypher Nine and the Great Champion of the Hunt are non-factors. We have seen how Royal Guards and even Mandalorians fair against people of Yoda and Sidious' calibre. They fare as well as the two Mandalorians who got curbstomped by Sidious before the Maul and Savage fight. Considering the ease in which Sidious handled Maul and Savage, both of which are easily at the level of Dark Council members, I don't see Nox and the Wrath downing this Emperor. Sidious is Nox's superior force wise, and is the Wrath's great superior in sabers.


This battle would go like this.

Cypher Nine and the Great Hunter raise their weapons, Sidious with a gesture either KOs them via force push or force chokes them. Then Sidious pins the Wrath to the wall via TK, demolishes Nox with his saber, which considering Nox has no saber feats to speak of should be fairly easy for the Dark Lord to do even as he is suspending the Wrath. Then he would eviscerate the Wrath in whichever way he sees fit.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
yep

kill them now


Wow, **** off. The team dominates this biscuits

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
ROTS Sidious can take this. Cypher Nine and the Great Champion of the Hunt are non-factors.

I disagree. The Champion has shown himself to be an extremely high-level fighter, easily on the level of a Jedi Council or Dark Council member and above. Alone, sure he's no threat to Sidious but with 3 other powerful allies he is a threat to him, attacking him with heavy ordinance, missiles and flamthrowers while Nox attacks with the Force, Cipher 9 shoots at him and the Wrath engages with his lightsaber. As said in TOR, Sith have lightsabers for a reason. It only takes one quick shot and with all of them attacking him Sidious will be pressed in his defense.

Cipher 9 will likewise be annoying to Sidious with stealth, toxins or a sniper.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
We have seen how Royal Guards and even Mandalorians fair against people of Yoda and Sidious' calibre. They fare as well as the two Mandalorians who got curbstomped by Sidious before the Maul and Savage fight.

These guys survived the fight against Malgus. They are not nonfactors. They are above Royal Guards or average Mandalorians. If Sidious tries choking them they'll distract him through any number of ways they have available.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Considering the ease in which Sidious handled Maul and Savage, both of which are easily at the level of Dark Council members, I don't see Nox and the Wrath downing this Emperor. Sidious is Nox's superior force wise, and is the Wrath's great superior in sabers.

Nox and the Wrath are above Dark Council level and as a duo are above Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This battle would go like this.

Cypher Nine and the Great Hunter raise their weapons, Sidious with a gesture either KOs them via force push or force chokes them.

Lolno. You assume their allies would just stand there and let the be taken out. What, are they just going t stand there with their thumbs up their asses? And not say, catch them before they hit the wall or break Sidious' concentration while he's choking them? Furthermore both of them have advanced armor and shields to prevent stuff like that.

Again, you could make the same case that Malgus takes them out that easily and guess what he did not.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Then Sidious pins the Wrath to the wall via TK, demolishes Nox with his saber, which considering Nox has no saber feats to speak of should be fairly easy for the Dark Lord to do even as he is suspending the Wrath. Then he would eviscerate the Wrath in whichever way he sees fit.

Again you're just assuming the team will just let him do these things. While he's concentrating on pinning the Wrath, Nox will be unleashing a lightning storm on him or the Champion will be firing missiles.

And why would Nox allow him to engage him with a lightsaber instead of attacking with the Force? The idea that Sidious will be able to pin the Wrath while blocking Nox' lightning long enough to push through and engage in lightsabers is absurd.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I disagree. The Champion has shown himself to be an extremely high-level fighter, easily on the level of a Jedi Council or Dark Council member and above. Alone, sure he's no threat to Sidious but with 3 other powerful allies he is a threat to him, attacking him with heavy ordinance, missiles and flamthrowers while Nox attacks with the Force, Cipher 9 shoots at him and the Wrath engages with his lightsaber. As said in TOR, Sith have lightsabers for a reason. It only takes one quick shot and with all of them attacking him Sidious will be pressed in his defense.

There is absolutely nothing showing that he would be able to resist a force wave from Sidious, nor have any counter to neck snap. Both of which Sidious can do with a mere gesture. You forget that Sidious utterly annihilated 3 Jedi Council members even with the support of Mace Windu.



Nothing a Force Wave wouldn't do. Sidious KOs with less difficulty than it took to take down Kolar.




Malgus has not displayed the raw TK nor the speed, nor the saber mastery of Palpatine.




The Wrath's feats are comparable to Savage's and Nox's are comparable to Maul's.




Like Mace Windu was able to save Kolar? Or like Sidious was able to stop Yoda from utterly annihilating his guards? Dude I don't think you understand, there will be no concentration. Sidious can dismiss them with less than a gesture.



Malgus wasn't able to instantly neck snap them like Vader was able to to Kento Marek. His TK mastery is likely less and he requires more concentration. Sidious is able to casually dismiss non-force users with a gesture. C9 and the Champ will be liabilities more than help. + If Sidious moves faster than Anakin can follow there is no ****ing way non-force sensitives will be able to keep up.


The Champ will be dead. Nox won't get the chance to charge a lightning storm because Sidious would have blitzed him by then.



Sidious is way faster than any combatant any of them have faced. Nox being able to even follow Sidious' movements to tag him with lightning is baseless. This is the same man who felled two of the greatest blademasters the order has ever produced before they could even complete a swing.

Also considering the ease with which he pinned Maul and Savage it isn't far fetched he could do the same with Nox and the Wrath.

Sidious could blitz Cipher Nine and the Great Champion before the other two can react unless you mean to imply that either are faster than Kit Fisto, who moves so fast Kenobi cannot follow his movements and Mace Windu who swings 24+blows per second.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sidious could blitz Cipher Nine and the Great Champion before the other two can react unless you mean to imply that either are faster than Kit Fisto, who moves so fast Kenobi cannot follow his movements and Mace Windu who swings 24+blows per second. Even Mace was not quick enough to save the two Jedi Masters despite being able to deliver dozens of blows a second. Palpatine seems to be consistently faster than Mace in that entire duel.
"In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."
His lightning also seems stronger after his transformation. The rays of light were much more intense after Mace windu lost his hand.
Then he goes on to fight Yoda at a speed greater than when he fought Mace.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There is absolutely nothing showing that he would be able to resist a force wave from Sidious, nor have any counter to neck snap. Both of which Sidious can do with a mere gesture. You forget that Sidious utterly annihilated 3 Jedi Council members even with the support of Mace Windu.

How could I forget that, its one of the most notable scenes in the mythos. You forget that he didn't annihilate them with the Force. And Darth Tormen instantly blitzed a Sith Lord in a kaggath but lost to the Champion.

Sidious hasn't ever neck snapped anyone. Nox and the Wrath would block any Force Wave directed at them at the start of the fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Nothing a Force Wave wouldn't do. Sidious KOs with less difficulty than it took to take down Kolar.

A Force Wave would KO him? Nah, his armor would let him tank a wave, or he'd activate a shield or his allies will block it. Plus he'd likely be behind cover by that point.

I like how you're just assuming Sidious will be able to freely attack whenever he wants though. Because the strike team will be asleep by that point I guess.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malgus has not displayed the raw TK nor the speed, nor the saber mastery of Palpatine.

So? He's not exactly far off him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Wrath's feats are comparable to Savage's and Nox's are comparable to Maul's.

No, not really. Nox is a lot more powerful than Maul and the Wrath would kill a brute like Savage.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Like Mace Windu was able to save Kolar? Or like Sidious was able to stop Yoda from utterly annihilating his guards? Dude I don't think you understand, there will be no concentration. Sidious can dismiss them with less than a gesture.

I think you're wanking Sidious more than is warranted.

Lol @ Yoda annihilating his guards. Yeah, cuz Yoda did it just too fast for Sidious to do anything. And not that Sidious didn't even give a shit or was even aware Yoda was there at the time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malgus wasn't able to instantly neck snap them like Vader was able to to Kento Marek. His TK mastery is likely less and he requires more concentration.

False. In the Third Lesson he's able to snap the neck of a nearby Jedi while in a lightsaber duel and in Deception he kills a Jedi with a Force Push.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sidious is able to casually dismiss non-force users with a gesture. C9 and the Champ will be liabilities more than help. + If Sidious moves faster than Anakin can follow there is no ****ing way non-force sensitives will be able to keep up.

Lmao @ that noncanon feat. Try again bro.

Sidious dismissed two random Mandalorians. He won't be so effective against Cipher 9 or the Champion who would ignore the choke and just blast at Sidious until he lets go. Hell Tormen and Malgus showed off casual Force chokes too and guess how much that helped them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Champ will be dead. Nox won't get the chance to charge a lightning storm because Sidious would have blitzed him by then.

He'll have to get through Nox's shields, as she's already shown herself capable of blocking lightsaber attacks with the Force. And I find the idea that Sidious will blitz a being of Nox's power to be laughable.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sidious is way faster than any combatant any of them have faced. Nox being able to even follow Sidious' movements to tag him with lightning is baseless. This is the same man who felled two of the greatest blademasters the order has ever produced before they could even complete a swing.

Also considering the ease with which he pinned Maul and Savage it isn't far fetched he could do the same with Nox and the Wrath.

Sidious could blitz Cipher Nine and the Great Champion before the other two can react unless you mean to imply that either are faster than Kit Fisto, who moves so fast Kenobi cannot follow his movements and Mace Windu who swings 24+blows per second.

This is ridiculous. You're acting as if Sidious is going to be easily pwn Vader and Dooku level opponents.

Except that they're more powerful than those two, so yeah its pretty far fetched.

Yeah I do think that since both are much more powerful than Kit and Mace didn't do that so whatever.

Neph, do you have canonical evidence of the Cipher and Champion resisting telekinetic Force attacks?

Define "resisting."

I'm not saying they'll shrug them off, merely survive them should they be hit.

If he reaches out and starts to strangle them, is there evidence that they can survive it?

I don't consider that really something I need to prove, as he'll never be able to fully choke them out before he's forced to break it off to defend against Nox and Wrath.

Though as I said the Champion has fought Tormen and beat him, who shows off a casual Force choke in his first meeting and attacks with telekinesis in the cutscene before the fight (3.30) :

T4Zet3GKO_k

Cipher 9 has been hit with telekinetic attacks as well and fought on. Plus if he go by the lightside choices he's fought Jadus and forced him to go on the defensive. And of course both beat Malgus who as I argued above has very powerful TK and is able to swiftly neck snap or choke opponents.

Sidious doesn't need direct concentration to choke someone out, though, nor does he need to make gesture. Look at his entrance of Maul's citadel in the Lawless--The guys are floating into the air and choking out as he is greeting them.

True, but I still don't believe he'd be capable of choking them while besieged by the Wrath and Nox.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't consider that really something I need to prove, as he'll never be able to fully choke them out before he's forced to break it off to defend against Nox and Wrath.

Says who? I'm asking you to explain how they'd possibly defend against him crushing their windpipes. You're merely assuming that they can without offering evidence as to how.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Though as I said the Champion has fought Tormen and beat him, who shows off a casual Force choke in his first meeting and attacks with telekinesis in the cutscene before the fight (3.30) :

T4Zet3GKO_k

This is a little better, but doesn't quite satisfy the burden. The Champion was hit by Tormen's telekinesis, though he wasn't seriously injured and managed to dodge projectiles. From the looks of it, the fight then devolved into more physical combat, with Tormen pursuing with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cipher 9 has been hit with telekinetic attacks as well and fought on. Plus if he go by the lightside choices he's fought Jadus and forced him to go on the defensive. And of course both beat Malgus who as I argued above has very powerful TK and is able to swiftly neck snap or choke opponents.

My question isn't whether they've battled powerful telekinetics. My question is whether you have any evidence to suggest that they can outright resist it.

Pre Vizsla, Jango Fett, and Cad Bane are all Forceless mooks who have duked it out with skilled Force users before. But put them against any talented Force user, particularly a Sith, and the Sith has access to their full arsenal, I'd still say they'd go down pretty hard as long as the Force is in question.

Neph, I think you're missing MY's point: if Sidious can slaughter two celebrated swordsmen with his saber before Mace and Kit were able to do anything to him, then what makes you think the force users on this team can do something fast enough to prevent Sidious from dismissing the non-force users with a simple gesture. And yes, Sidious can instantly snap the wind pipes of a non-force users. Dooku can snap huge metallic columns with a gesture, so what makes you think Sidious can't do the same to some wind pipes? PIS?

Yeah, the Cipher and Champion have no hope here. Don't know about the other guys, though.

Sidious doesn't stand much chance against both Nox and the Wrath.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Sidious doesn't stand much chance against both Nox and the Wrath.

We really need to start making respect threads for easy access to information about these obscure characters.

I've made enough arguments about Nox that you should be aware of her feats by now. Or just read the second page of this thread.

I really don't retain the knowledge you offer. It'll be easier on all of us if you just went ahead and made threads for these characters.

All of us except me. >:[

You'd just be copying and pasting shit you already have. It's more convenient in the long run for all of us, especially you.

http://deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/lisaspony16.png

Hrmmm....

Think about it: all you'd need to do would be copy a url link; the argument pretty much makes itself!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Says who?

Me. And also the basic fact that its impossible to choke out in the few seconds max it would take them to attack him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm asking you to explain how they'd possibly defend against him crushing their windpipes. You're merely assuming that they can without offering evidence as to how.

No I'm not. I haven't said they could defend against it or block it, just that they'd find some way to stop him from continuing to do it, like shoot a half dozen missiles at him or use that silly carbonite spray.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is a little better, but doesn't quite satisfy the burden. The Champion was hit by Tormen's telekinesis, though he wasn't seriously injured and managed to dodge projectiles. From the looks of it, the fight then devolved into more physical combat, with Tormen pursuing with his lightsaber.

Yes, but the fact is Tormen can use Force choke (2.45). If it was really as simple as just using to pwn the Champion you'd think he'd do it. And since he call pull a console out of the floor suuuurely he could break a mans neck amirite?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My question isn't whether they've battled powerful telekinetics. My question is whether you have any evidence to suggest that they can outright resist it.

And again I ask what you mean by 'resist it.' Obviously they have no way to block it (although there is a device that can block telepathy in the Consular story mmm) but in terms of resisting Sidious trying to pwn them I've offered my argument and theres no much else to do than reapeatedly point out that they've beaten opponents with powerful TK. Kellian Jarro smashed Mandalorians against the ground so hard their packs exploded and the Hunter killed him too.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pre Vizsla, Jango Fett, and Cad Bane are all Forceless mooks who have duked it out with skilled Force users before. But put them against any talented Force user, particularly a Sith, and the Sith has access to their full arsenal, I'd still say they'd go down pretty hard as long as the Force is in question.

Thats your opinion, but its unsupported by actual ****ing canon that shows that forceless "mooks" can defeat powerful Force users through skill and equipment.

I'm going to be honest here and just say that I'm not going to strain myself arguing it with you. I feel I've met the burden of proof by pointing out that they've fought opponents with access to all the tactics and powers you're arguing will pwn them and won.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, I think you're missing MY's point: if Sidious can slaughter two celebrated swordsmen with his saber before Mace and Kit were able to do anything to him, then what makes you think the force users on this team can do something fast enough to prevent Sidious from dismissing the non-force users with a simple gesture. And yes, Sidious can instantly snap the wind pipes of a non-force users. Dooku can snap huge metallic columns with a gesture, so what makes you think Sidious can't do the same to some wind pipes? PIS?

Oh golly gee, and I guess it also stands to reason that if Dooku could snap metallic columns then he could break a human wind pipe too right? Like he did against Obi-Wan when he was ragdolling him and could obviously do tha- oh wait no he didn't, did he?

Or hey, what about when Maul was ragdolling Obi-Wan? Hell, he's choking him out at one point and if he can do that clearly he could just snap his fuc- no.... no he didn't do that either.

Or, stay with me here... if Dooku could lift a dozen heavy pillars, surely he should be able to snap a dozen necks too right? Like he did against those stupid pirates who captured hi- aaaaaaargh!

But yes lets keep arguing these baseless hypotheticals. Canon is on your side!

Your argument for the Cipher, the Champion, and any other Forceless mook against any truly talented Force user relies entirely on PIS.

Look at Vizsla vs. Maul. They have an intense fight wherein Vizsla proved to be an enormous challenge... but Maul didn't use the Force once. Likewise with Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore.

It's reasonable to assume that if someone can snap pillars, they can snap necks. Now, if the neck in question belongs to someone who can resist, negate, mitigate, or otherwise blunt Force powers, then I'd agree.

But until the Cipher and the Champion demonstrate such resistance, then there's no way they can stop Sidious from just crushing them. And I'd argue the same for any talented Force user against Forceless mooks.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your argument for the Cipher, the Champion, and any other Forceless mook against any truly talented Force user relies entirely on PIS.

Look at Vizsla vs. Maul. They have an intense fight wherein Vizsla proved to be an enormous challenge... but Maul didn't use the Force once. Likewise with Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore.

It's reasonable to assume that if someone can snap pillars, they can snap necks. Now, if the neck in question belongs to someone who can resist, negate, mitigate, or otherwise blunt Force powers, then I'd agree.

But until the Cipher and the Champion demonstrate such resistance, then there's no way they can stop Sidious from just crushing them. And I'd argue the same for any talented Force user against Forceless mooks.

I can't further agree with this.

Yes, what Temp said.

Kenobi is a force user and has resistance to TK. Bad example, Neph.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your argument for the Cipher, the Champion, and any other Forceless mook against any truly talented Force user relies entirely on PIS.

Look at Vizsla vs. Maul. They have an intense fight wherein Vizsla proved to be an enormous challenge... but Maul didn't use the Force once. Likewise with Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore.

It's reasonable to assume that if someone can snap pillars, they can snap necks. Now, if the neck in question belongs to someone who can resist, negate, mitigate, or otherwise blunt Force powers, then I'd agree.

But until the Cipher and the Champion demonstrate such resistance, then there's no way they can stop Sidious from just crushing them. And I'd argue the same for any talented Force user against Forceless mooks.

No, my argument is that they've fought people with the power to do what you're arguing Sidious will do and have demonstrated that they can and will do it in the past..... and they still won.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, what Temp said.

Kenobi is a force user and has resistance to TK. Bad example, Neph.

If he is unable to resist Maul choking him or Dooku lifting him clean off the floor then there is no reason he should be able to resist them snapping his neck.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I can't further agree with this.

No doubt that in a scripted story, a Muggle like Cad Bane or Jace Malcom can threaten, seriously injure, or kill a Jedi or Sith.

But unless otherwise noted, a talented Jedi and Sith has the power to just reach out and break them in half before that happens.

We have to ultimately go with what's on paper. And on-paper, the guys equipped with a wide array of telepathic, telekinetic, and other Force-related powers and generally possess superhuman speed, reflexes, and strength are going to beat the shit out of a gunslinger.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, my argument is that they've fought people with the power to do what you're arguing Sidious will do and have demonstrated that they can and will do it in the past..... and they still lost.

PIS

Originally posted by ares834
PIS

Originally posted by ares834
PIS

AKA "lets stick our hands in our ears and scream until the facts go away."

Neph, just because Kenobi is unable to prevent superior force users from overpowering him and choking him, doesn't mean he can't resist being snuffed out instantly.

Uh, yes it does. If he's unable to prevent them from closing his neck until it will kill him when he runs out of air, them why should he be capable of preventing them from turning his neck until it starts clicking like a bottle of childlocked vitamins?

The fact is that they don't even try.

Originally posted by Nephthys
AKA "lets stick our hands in our ears and scream until the facts go away."

Not really, no.

The fact is that against a talented Force adept, Muggles are always the underdog in a mano e mano tussle. Of course they can beat Jedi and Sith, but that requires far more scripting than can be reasonably inferred.

You have not demonstrated that the Cipher and/or Champion can stop Sidious from snapping his fingers and their necks in the same move. It's well within his power to do; nor have you demonstrated that they are fast enough to distract him from doing it with their arsenal of weapons.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really, no.

Yes really.

It is canon that they have done this. Complaining about PIS is nothing more than willful ignorance of the facts. Which are: That they have defeated opponents who have the power and will to do exactly what you are arguing through being just too damn good for such tactics to win against them.

You've already tried to argue this point in the Qui-Gon thread and lost.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact is that against a talented Force adept, Muggles are always the underdog in a mano e mano tussle. Of course they can beat Jedi and Sith, but that requires far more scripting than can be reasonably inferred.

It does not require scripting. Hell, the only one scripting here is you. It just requires us to accept that they are good enough to do it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes really.

No, not really.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is canon that they have done this.

It is canon that they have defeated Force users. It is not canon that they have stopped someone from snapping their fvcking necks until you prove it.

My burden of proof has long been met. Yours has not.

Show me Sidious snapping someones neck.

Neph, because Kenobi is a force user, and can use the force to resist being taken out instantly, whether he fails to in the end or not. The point is, he has the force to fight off being killed instantly. A non force user doesn't.

quanchi the second
My burden of proof has long been met. Yours has not.

Hardly. I'm asking you for proof that they're capable of resisting his telekinetic attacks or quick enough to distract him from getting one off.

quanchi the second
Show me Sidious snapping someones neck.

I don't have to, quan. It's reasonable to infer that he can, given his telekinetic feats.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, because Kenobi is a force user, and can use the force to resist being taken out instantly, whether he fails to in the end or not. The point is, he has the force to fight off being killed instantly. A non force user doesn't.

Theres no difference between failing to resist having your necks snapped and failing to have your wind pipe closed. In both cases his opponent is piercing his Force defenses and freely manipulating his body. Again, If Dooku has the power to get through Kenobi's defenses and lift him off the ground and throw him, then logically he should be able to twist hi neck around. Obi-Wan cannot stop him from doing the former, theres no reason he should be able to prevent him from doing that latter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, If Dooku has the power to get through Kenobi's defenses and lift him off the ground and throw him, then logically he should be able to twist hi neck around.

Agreed so far.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan cannot stop him from doing the former, theres no reason he should be able to prevent him from doing that latter.

Only if Dooku breached his Force defense via brute force a la Bane and Qordis. If Dooku simply caught him off guard, it's possible for Obi-Wan to react at the last instant to save his neck.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hardly. I'm asking you for proof that they're capable of resisting his telekinetic attacks or quick enough to distract him from getting one off.



I don't have to, quan. It's reasonable to infer that he can, given his telekinetic feats.

Which I've done by pointing out that they've done it in the past.

Oh no motherfvcker, you wanted to play this game, well I can play it too. You're refusing to accept my arguments for why we can infer it and asking for explicit proof that they can stop him from doing it so I'm gona be a douche too and ask for explicit proof that Sidious can snap someones neck.

Prove it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if Dooku breached his Force defense via brute force a la Bane and Qordis. If Dooku simply caught him off guard, it's possible for Obi-Wan to react at the last instant to save his neck.

True, but since Dooku has him lifted off the ground for a good 3 seconds that should be enough time for Kenobi's Jedi reflexes to allow him to start resisting.

Also as I said Maul was choking him out for a good amount of time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which I've done by pointing out that they've done it in the past.

You've proven that they can survive Force pushes and dodge projectiles. Not once have I contested that.

What I am skeptical of is their ability to defend, resist, blunt, mitigate, or otherwise prevent Sidious from lifting them bodily and breaking necks, snapping spines, crushing rib cages, or using them as projectiles against Nox and the Wrath.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh no motherfvcker, you wanted to play this game, well I can play it too. You're refusing to accept my arguments for why we can infer it and asking for explicit proof that they can stop him from doing it so I'm gona be a douche too and ask for explicit proof that Sidious can snap someones neck.

Prove it.

No, your 'argument' was that they've beaten telekinetics before, ergo they can stop Sidious from popping them like champagne corks.

That does not follow. Sidious, with his wide array of telekinetic feats, has demonstrated the skill and power necessary to accomplish something as pedestrian as breaking the necks of two Muggles.

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, but since Dooku has him lifted off the ground for a good 3 seconds that should be enough time for Kenobi's Jedi reflexes to allow him to start resisting.

And maybe he was resisting, keeping Dooku from breaking his neck. Remember, Dooku is more powerful than Obi-Wan, but perhaps not to the degree that he was confident of his ability to try and crush him outright in such a desperate scenario with a powerful enemy at his back.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also as I said Maul was choking him out for a good amount of time.

In "The Lawless," you mean? He was disoriented by the crash.

No, in "The Sith Hunters" comic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, in "The Sith Hunters" comic.

Oh, yeah.

Well Maul says he's gonna do it slowly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No doubt that in a scripted story, a Muggle like Cad Bane or Jace Malcom can threaten, seriously injure, or kill a Jedi or Sith.

But unless otherwise noted, a talented Jedi and Sith has the power to just reach out and break them in half before that happens.

We have to ultimately go with what's on paper. And on-paper, the guys equipped with a wide array of telepathic, telekinetic, and other Force-related powers and generally possess superhuman speed, reflexes, and strength are going to beat the shit out of a gunslinger.

Unreal, Sidious can blitz some of the greatest Jedi swordsman in history with his blade, but cannot dismiss a bounty hunter and a spy with a gesture on the basis that they survived against Malgus? Give me a ****ing break. Sidious demolishes them and then mid-high diffs the rest.

Nice response. It really captured your argument.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice response. It really captured your argument.

You still bother with him? Lol

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Unreal, Sidious can blitz some of the greatest Jedi swordsman in history with his blade, but cannot dismiss a bounty hunter and a spy with a gesture on the basis that they survived against Malgus? Give me a ****ing break. Sidious demolishes them.

Their survival against Malgus was PIS anyway.

Through my mighty OP powers, I declare that it was not and in the fight with Malgus they contributed immensely.

Such is the Word of Nephthys!

Originally posted by SJones91109
You still bother with him? Lol

Hey Neph next time you want to talk to yourself consult a shrink.

Thats Beefy, not me. Lol.

He's easily confused.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Unreal, Sidious can blitz some of the greatest Jedi swordsman in history with his blade, but cannot dismiss a bounty hunter and a spy with a gesture on the basis that they survived against Malgus? He outright stomped anyone who was not Mace, Yoda, or Luke.

Originally posted by Nephthys

... I'm gona be a douche too and ask for explicit proof that Sidious can snap someones neck.

Prove it.

"Choke: A telekinetic grip, which when centered on an enemiy's neck can pinch off airflow and snap vertebrae. This requires more concentration than the
Push... " (Bane)
"A true master of this art can burst a walker's fuel tank, or buckle the hull of a star cruiser." (Palpatine)
It's on page 90 in Book of Sith. Since it's Palpatine saying it, and inferring from his other abilities, there doesn't seem to be any reason for him to make this up. Snapping necks wouldn't be difficult at all.