Dooku versus Windu

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Stealth Moose
This is a newer version, based on any and all evidence up to date. I've not been watching the Clone Wars cartoons so I'm uncertain if anything has come up to change the previous beliefs behind this match up.

It is for all intents and purposes neutral (no home court advantage).

Nephthys
The most notable thing Dooku does in the cartoon is this:

mfIEdlba5ZQ

and a new? feat from the games:

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At the start.

Stealth Moose
That's it, eh? What about Face Windex?

Nephthys
Er, I think he force pushes a tank off a cliff at one point or something?

Oh, and there was this one thing where Dooku beats Ventress and two nightsisters while drugged:

l6s6lHLJBvE

Other than that I think its mainly him very narrowly fending off Skywalker.

Stealth Moose
Very narrowly? I don't like the sound of that.

Nephthys
I presume you've already seen the movie fight where Anakin looks like he's actually winning.

Then theres this fight:

ZROBkyot8Hs

Where despite having every advantage and barely doing anything he's out of breath from the mere effort of knocking out a weakened Anakin.

Finally:

Xhys5CPFB_I

Anakin actually starts him choking out at the end there.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Except Skywalker's lightsaber form is the best to combat Dooku, and that Skywalker is the 3rd best duelist in the PT?

S_W_LeGenD
Windu should be able to beat Dooku.

DARTH POWER
I think those fights show how powerful Skywalker is as of the Clone Wars. Not how weak Dooku is. Dooku's still the guy who fights off Yoda in AOTC, the guy who stomps ROTS Kenobi with a flick of the wrist, and was the Jedi Temple's most learned and strongest student.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Except Skywalker's lightsaber form is the best to combat Dooku,


Nah. Makashi's the best form for fencing.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
and that Skywalker is the 3rd best duelist in the PT?

He's easily the 3rd most powerful Jedi after Yoda and Mace during the Clone Wars.

S_W_LeGenD
Keep in mind that dark side practices can take toll over physical well-being of a Force-user.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
I presume you've already seen the movie fight where Anakin looks like he's actually winning.

Then theres this fight:

ZROBkyot8Hs

Where despite having every advantage and barely doing anything he's out of breath from the mere effort of knocking out a weakened Anakin.

Finally:

Xhys5CPFB_I

Anakin actually starts him choking out at the end there.

I misread this and thought you meant Mace very narrowly defeated Skywalker. Not sure why I'd not second-guess such a thing, but I am at work and thus distracted somewhat.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. Makashi's the best form for fencing.

It may be the best form for fencing, however Anakin usually uses brute strength to overwhelm Dooku, does he not?

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It may be the best form for fencing, however Anakin usually uses brute strength to overwhelm Dooku, does he not?

He does. In fact, everything points to Anakin being like a kind of refined Opress; amazing raw strength, no refinement. However, it baffles me as to why he can "overcome" Dooku and not Obi-Wan, when the Force disparity between those two is mind-boggling.

I think the reason why is George Lucas sucks at power balancing and writing.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It's because Obi-Wan's defensive capabilities are greater than Dooku's, and Anakin was in a screwed up mental state when he fought Obi Wan, and was Zonakin when he killed Dooku.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It's because Obi-Wan's defensive capabilities are greater than Dooku's, and Anakin was in a screwed up mental state when he fought Obi Wan, and was Zonakin when he killed Dooku.

1. Obi-Wan had zero defensive skills against Dooku. Dooku used precise strikes and grace, whereas Anakin is more straight-forward. If this were actually true, Obi-Wan could defend against Dooku; he can't. So why can Obi-Wan hold off Anakin for like a billion hours?

2. How much of Anakin's mental state affects his fighting is debatable, considering that he wants to kill Dooku when they fight, and he wants to kill Obi-Wan when they fight. Unless you want to say that Anakin is 'emotionally exhausted and thus unable to muster his full skillset'.

3. Zonakin is clearly PIS personified. I'm not even sure how to evaluate such an entity.

Nephthys
The best thing is how Lucas writes in the script that Obi-Wan and Dooku were tired but Anakin wasn't, despite Obi-Wan fighting for literally 10 seconds. Then he fights Anakin for 30 minutes straight.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
The best thing is how Lucas writes in the script that Obi-Wan and Dooku were tired but Anakin wasn't, despite Obi-Wan fighting for literally 10 seconds. Then he fights Anakin for 30 minutes straight.

Selective tiredness. Also, GL writes the prequels like some 14 year olds write fan fiction, it's disgusting. If it wasn't a high budget trilogy preceded by a fairly solid OT (over which GL did not have total control but instead had other directors and editors), I'd never have bothered.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. In the force maybe, however I don't think Dooku could penetrate Obi Wan's lightsaber defenses. He can hold off against Anakin because a) he was emotionally screwed up and therefore unable to tap into his true raw power, hence why he and Kenobi stalemated in a force push, and b) he knew Anakin's moves inside and out.

2. If his mental state is extremely screwed up, he can't tap into all his raw power, while he did do so in his Zonakin state, making Dooku into a "joke".

3. I guess it's almost like a one-time thing where he tapped into all his raw power to simply overwhelm Dooku and make into a complete joke.

S_W_LeGenD
Keep in mind that Dooku was restricted by Sidious in his decision-making during his final encounter with the duo of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. In the force maybe, however I don't think Dooku could penetrate Obi Wan's lightsaber defenses. He can hold off against Anakin because a) he was emotionally screwed up and therefore unable to tap into his true raw power, hence why he and Kenobi stalemated in a force push, and b) he knew Anakin's moves inside and out.

This seems like speculation. Can you back this up with proof?

Also, Dooku could very easily toy with Obi-Wan. If you watch the RotS fight in detail, the level of dominance is not much far off from AotC. And saber technique is not divorced from Force use since the fights we base our decisions on include both.



Proof of this please.



Yes, I'm aware of the argument. But it seems like you are not familiar with it on anything but in a passing sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Keep in mind that Dooku was restricted by Sidious in his decision-making during his final encounter with the duo of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

According to the original script, which GL shat all over. Originally, Mace versus Sidious was going to be done professionally, with actual sword masters instead of two old actors, giving us a high level of awesomeness like watching Dooku fight. Instead, GL overrode that. GL also omitted Yoda's original fight with Sidious, which drastically changes how we perceive their strengths.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I suggest you go over to the mace windu vs zonakin thread in the expanded universe/literature forum if you want to know about the novelization's point of view on the matter. I suggest you read the posts specifically by lucien.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I suggest you go over to the mace windu vs zonakin thread in the expanded universe/literature forum if you want to know about the novelization's point of view on the matter. I suggest you read the posts specifically by lucien.

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to get here.

I'm challenging you to present this argument yourself without relying on me "having heard it". You might have seen examples around where people provide not just reasoning but evidence for their positions. Nai presented exact quotes from the Revan novel; Neph posts videos even when he isn't defending a position but to help others, and I've posted comic scans to refresh people on exact wording as well.

Now, you've presented arguments here on Anakin Skywalker's inconsistent showings. Instead of deferring me, show me that you understand your own argument and provide proof.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Anakin's state of mind when fighting Dooku is completely different then when he fought Obi Wan. Here is a quote from the novelization depicting this:

"there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell. In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win."

In his fight against Obi Wan Kenobi on Mustafar, he was far from this mindset. He was emotionally plagued by his actions, which is shown in the RotS movie where he sheds a tear after killing the separatist leaders. While in both situations he wanted to kill his opponent, his emotions weren't dictating his actions against Dooku like they were against Obi Wan.

NewGuy01
Zonakin is complete bullshit if you ask me, though he was pretty out of it when he fought Kenobi.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zonakin is complete bullshit if you ask me, though he was pretty out of it when he fought Kenobi.

Well there's 2 ways of looking at it.

Either a) We take Stover completely literally, in which case Skywalker was some force god when he defeated Dooku, making his whole power set into a joke. This idea of Anakin reaching those Uber godly states on rare occasions could be further supported by the Mortis trilogy in TCW.

Or b) Stover's descriptions of Skywalker's power against Dooku was all just hyperbole. And that Skywalker had simply just surpassed Dooku by this point as part of his natural progression since TCW (considering the idea now is that they were already close at that point).


Either way he must have been handicapped against Kenobi, since anyone who has even just slightly surpassed Dooku will be more on par with Windu than Kenobi. So the power difference between Skywalker and Kenobi would have just been too great.

However that clearly wasn't true by that point, seen as they were stalemated in a force push contest. The fact that as of TCW Skywalker is tanking all Dooku's force attacks, the same force attacks which dispose of ROTS Kenobi pretty easily, shows that Sith Anakin was clearly less powerful in the Force than even TCW Anakin.

I've provided passages from the ROTS novel in the Windu vs Zonneakin thread which show that Skywalker's innate fear would drown his abilities considerably, and the fear of losing Padme was sunk deep into his veins right before his fight with Kenobi.

juyomaster34
Anakin over powered Dooku...plain and simple Makashi vs Djem So...
Dooku's style wasn't built to handle Djem So..

Dooku was surprised and shocked at Anakin's skill.
he couldn't match it,plus it was tiring him to even try to match Djem So.

I kno we agreed on the individual philosophy...
but how many times the same individuals tried to match Makashi against Djem So...and lost?
with the same mistake?

I wouldn't say natural...I would say Mastery of Form V...made the difference.
in AOTC ,he tried to use two saber Ataru,which wasn't his strong suit,Dooku saw this.and well
you kno the rest...


As for Dooku vs Mace Windu,
this ain't Sora so the FL is done, not even a factor.
the classic Makashi vs Vaapad....done
1Makashi can't handle the kinectic blows
2 Vaapad will just as easily overwhelm Makashi as well as Djem So..

back to FP,which is TK...again not even a factor Mace's TK speaks for itself....
Add shatter point to whatever object to Dooku throws w/TK and/or saber slash threw those objects or TK those objects back at him...or just simply dodge....

enter Magna Guards or any other outside interference plus a quick retreat...
FL again...no not if he likes his face,...and he does like his face....

So....imho Mace wins all three w/Mace defeating his Magna Guards,his dark jedi,and Dooku
making a very quick exit-stage right after the last dark jedi goes down....

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Anakin over powered Dooku...plain and simple Makashi vs Djem So...
Dooku's style wasn't built to handle Djem So..

Bull.





Originally posted by juyomaster34
1Makashi can't handle the kinectic blows
2 Vaapad will just as easily overwhelm Makashi as well as Djem So..




Bull Crap.

juyomaster34
what's bull is Dooku beating Mace...
And the Bull Crap is believing someone second in command of the Jedi Order
can't use the Force...and falls to every match up every single time is the biggest
bull crap of all....

It's there read how Anakin overpowered him with Djem So....
No zone...no tricks just pure Djem So skill .....
read it and weep.....

The only thing he beat Mace in was sparring....perhaps sparring in Makashi (only)
perhaps he was Mace's motivation to refine Vaapad when he was still refining it...
who knows....

Dooku is not winning this duel....stalemate it and run away yes.....
winning lol...no.... not on his best day....

Dooku isn't even full Sith...meaning the yellow eyes or the pale skin....

juyomaster34
Prove were Makashi can handle the brute strength of Djem So...
Or the overwhelming kinetics of Vaapad....

We did the individual thing...this about if the individual will exept his style weakness,...face defeat,..or retreat,...or die trying to match Djem So's power and domination.

Every source I find says Makashi can't handle the kinetics of both Djem So and Vaapad.

Zett
Mace is just overrated. He has just one succes - his triumph over Sidious (which many consider as not real triumph, since Palpatine threw the fight/part of the fight). His duel with Depa was a crap, his duel with Sora also was a crap, if we compare it to Dooku's duel with Sora (and Tholme). Dooku also did better against Ventress and Grievous.

His sabers skills are great, on par with Dooku's and below Yoda's. His force skills... well, not exactly.

His TK is just average. In Shatterpoint he admitted it. He also consider Tiin's TK as... stronger (actually, Mace's TK is more precise and maybe skillful, but Tiin has greater raw power).
He has some nice protects, but still, he's not as strong as Dooku. Bulq was able to force push him, while Dooku was untouchable for him.

Maybe Vaapad is a strong, kinetic form. But Mace isn't strong enough to take advantage from that. He considered his own kinetic power as nowhere close to Djem So user, Saesee Tiin (and we all know, that Anakin is even greater with his Djem So then Tiin).

Mace was unable to take advantage over Count two times: in Republic heroes and in Obsession. In this fight from RH Obi-Wan was helping him.

Dooku on the other hand is on par with Mace with sabers (in pure sabers it can goes to Mace, since Dooku may be a bit too old), but Dooku is superior with his force powers.

For me, it's between 50/50 and 55/45 for Dooku.

Intrepid37
To say his telekinesis is average is ridiculous. He's not as powerful or masterful as the Count, but moving tanks and destroying battledroids with Force waves is very good.

juyomaster34
if you include the magna guards in both those occassions and his hasty retreat both times
if these weren't a factor I would agree with you...

The one that's overrated is Dooku...
Dooku does use the Dark Side...duh...Vaapad...

His FL or his TK won't save him...he'll run first or get help...which he does in both duels you
spoke of.....

if Dooku stop running then maybe we will have a winner...
Not strong enough to take advantage?
there is no strength in any Makashi strike...

Dooku is not strong...lol...
I wouldn't say below Yoda when neither Dooku or Yoda could defeat Sids..

His TK isn't average.....
He Force pushed Bulq
SP speaks for itself...

His FW is very powerful
His FC also... ask Grievous how that chest feel?you kno his constant coughing....

What's average were those Jedi you just mentioned...
Tiin?...lol... telepathy and piloting is his only strong suit....

Nice try....without Vaapad Dooku wins all day....with Vaapad...lol..stop playing...not gonna
happen....His running away and constant minion interference....will always save him
when Mace over powers him....again.

What's crap is believing Dooku will win 55/45?
is a joke....lol.....who saves him from Mother Talzin?

I rest my case....

juyomaster34
Tiin? is the best you can do ?
Tiin is average just as average as Kit Fisto.
lol.....

Anakin is the best Djem So practitioner,that 's why he beat Dooku...
His TK didn't matter he still beat Dooku....just like his TK won't matter in this duel...

Zett
Originally posted by Intrepid37
To say his telekinesis is average is ridiculous. He's not as powerful or masterful as the Count, but moving tanks and destroying battledroids with Force waves is very good.

Depends on how you're looking for that.

Palpatine and Yoda's TK is like the highest tier. Dooku's is one below, and Mace's is one below Dooku's.
Kenobi's, Bulq's TK is below average. But ok, i get your point.

Let's say, that Palpatine's and Yoda's TK is great, Dooku's is very good, Mace's is good and Kenobi's is average.


Originally posted by juyomaster34
if you include the magna guards in both those occassions and his hasty retreat both times
if these weren't a factor I would agree with you...

Yeah, in Obsession he was forced to use MGs to escape. And he escaped because a planet was almost under Republic's control. Grievous was defeated, Ventress was no match for Skywalker and Kenobi together. And on that planet were jedi like: Kolar, Fisto, Windu, Kenobi, Skywalker, Fisto, Koon, Hett.

Originally posted by juyomaster34

His FL or his TK won't save him...he'll run first or get help...which he does in both duels you
spoke of.....

Yeah, Dooku's FL wont be a problem for Mace. But I wouldn't say the same about his TK. Even Bulq was able to succesfuly push Windu onto wall. And Dooku's TK is far stronger then Bulq's.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Dooku is not strong...lol...


Well, I didin't said, that he is. But yeah, he is. He was able to block Anakin's and Obi-Wan's sabers at the same time, with just one hand.

And he took the advantage over them after he overpowered them in sabers lock.

Stover's novel is BS, and it's opposite to movie. In the movie, Anakin was forced to use all of his power to take an advantage over Count.
Also, in the novel Dooku isn't able to fight with those two at the same time. In te movie (which means - in the canon) he was.

Originally posted by juyomaster34

His TK isn't average.....
He Force pushed Bulq



Who has terrible force defence, and is - like Kenobi - easily to defeat with the force for Count. Mace was just able to push him once (but I agree, it was very strong force push).

Originally posted by juyomaster34
His FC also... ask Grievous how that chest feel?

FC is part of TK as I remeber. And Grievous is just a machine.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Tiin?...lol... telepathy and piloting is his only strong suit....


Tiin is one of the best order's duelists, one of the physically strongest warriors, and his TK has more raw power then Mace's. It's just a fact.


Originally posted by juyomaster34
Nice try....without Vaapad Dooku wins all day....with Vaapad...

...it's a tie.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
who saves him from Mother Talzin?

Dooku's force powers were superior to Windu's. If he wasn't able to defend himself against Talzin's magic, Mace wont be able either.

In that case, Mace's only advantage is his lack of hair... Yeah, its a joke.

juyomaster34
Tiin, is a great pilot...
warrior...that's a joke....Sids proved Tiin was no warrior by killing him first...
The only reason he had them in a Saber lock was BC they were n't using their true style...
They feigned Ataru...remember?


Tk ing a Tank isn't good or average....or TK ing a vibro - shield that fast and stopping with in just inches of a fatal death blow? is good iyho?


it's not a tie...not even close.....


Tiin and raw power doesn't even sound right in that sentence...
maybe in Telepathy....but in physical strength is a joke...Plo Koon is above him in physical strength...second imho to Anakin....

where was this raw power against Sids?


pushing Dooku isn't hard...neither is countering his TK assaults
he'll be tired after all that TK Heavy lifting and throwing...

he was tired in ATOC against Yoda and Anakin.....
What's BS is Tiin's raw power...lol..joke...real funny... and Dooku is still not strong....
he blocked them BC they let him....

Obi Wan is not average....just not the one to defeat Dooku...


In closing your fact of raw power...in Tiin is an illusion...
If you said Anakin.... I ...we would have agreed w/you..
DR was BS....

This duel between Mace and Dooku was already done....
Besides in time Dooku will fall.... Makashi was proven in too many sources that it can't
match/let alone handle the kinectics of Djem So and Vaapad...fact...

Dooku's compensations; the DS...TK and FL....
my answer... one word...Vaapad...

juyomaster34
I'll give you a great star fighter pilot....
raw power in telepathy...yes....best duelist...no
raw power in TK....you wish...lol..that was a joke..you mean Darth Vader...right?
I'll give RP to Vader in TK and physical strength....

Between Plo Koon,Tiin ,and Anakin.... in piloting a starfighter?
I'm still thinking...they're all Aces...
Top Ace? I don't kno....you got me on that one...

Plo Koon has more raw power than Tiin....in several areas....

Zett
^
Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't holding back against Dooku. It's one of Stover's BS.
This fight from ROTS novel is oposite to ROTS movie, The Rise and Fall od Darth Vader and ROTS script.

And Tiin's raw power in TK IS greater then Mace's. Read Heavy Metal Jedi or give any proof.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Zett
^
Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't holding back against Dooku. It's one of Stover's BS.
This fight from ROTS novel is oposite to ROTS movie, The Rise and Fall od Darth Vader and ROTS script.

And Tiin's raw power in TK IS greater then Mace's. Read Heavy Metal Jedi or give any proof.

It goes like this man; you put forth a claim (That "Tiin's raw power in TK IS greater then Mace's"wink. That places the burden of proof on you. That's how this whole thing works. Your next step is to provide written evidence (i.e. quote and source) of your claim. Until you do so, your comment carries zero validity.

Intrepid37
Mace throws a droid three kilometer, Tiin throws it four kilometer.

Nephthys
And Mace hit a squad of droids with his. He was going for precision instead of power. That doesn't mean that he couldn't hit it further than Tiin did.

Intrepid37
Going for precision doesn't mean you have to sacrifice power. Mace himself comments on Tiin's superior throw distance.

Zett
Ok:

Heavy Metal Jedi

As Intrepid37 already pointed (thanks for support), Tiin throws a droid four kilometer, while Mace three. They both throws droids five kilometers.

Tiin, we could use your strenght now! - Mace

Short after Tiin was able to catch a missile, which Mace (who was forced to dodge it) commented that way:

Nice work. I've never seen anyone catch a homing missile in mid-flight

Which highly suggested, that Mace probably was unable to do this.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Zett
Ok:

Heavy Metal Jedi

As Intrepid37 already pointed (thanks for support), Tiin throws a droid four kilometer, while Mace three. They both throws droids five kilometers.

Tiin, we could use your strenght now! - Mace

Short after Tiin was able to catch a missile, which Mace (who was forced to dodge it) commented that way:

Nice work. I've never seen anyone catch a homing missile in mid-flight

Which highly suggested, that Mace probably was unable to do this.

Even though Yoda can do this. Yoda even TKs an orbital missile strike and the vacuum of space. And in Shatterpoint, Mace's TK is ridiculous, to the point where he controls a landslide of tons of debris and dirt and, iirc, a vehicle about the size of a proper tank. Faunus had a well-fleshed out argument on Mace's Force mastery, and Tiin was nowhere near it.

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