Revan vs Exar Kun

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Nephthys
Lets go motherfvckers!

Revan as of TOR, they fight in the Foundry. Same place as in the game.

Dammit, I misspelled prodigal. http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/negativeman-55f.png

S_W_LeGenD
Revan have excellent defensive capabilities and lot of offensive options as well. He can subdue Kun after a decent fight.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Exar Kun.

he's shown himself to be a superior lightsaber duelist, and is a master of sith sorcery, being able to use dark tendrils, amulet blasts (not sure how well Revan can defend against these), and it even required thousands of jedi just to trap his spirit within the temple.

Stealth Moose
Funny thing is, in the KotOR RPG supplemental material, Kun did more DPS (marginally), but Revan had a possibility to win. Something like 2 fights out of 3 went to Kun if you crunched it down to sheer numbers. Then Revan gets buffed, but goes apeshit insane. I'm not sure on this one. I want to say that Kun's artificial strength would challenge Revan a lot. The same way Vitiate's powers pretty defeated him. On the other hand, it could be an extremely tough fight and could go either way.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
he's shown himself to be a superior lightsaber duelist,
How exactly he have shown himself to be a superior lightsaber duelist?

Its funny that Revan have never ended up disarmed in any lightsaber clash.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
and is a master of sith sorcery, being able to use dark tendrils, amulet blasts (not sure how well Revan can defend against these), and it even required thousands of jedi just to trap his spirit within the temple.
Its funny that Revan defeated a master Sorcerer in a matter of seconds; came close within striking distance of Vitiate (who utterly outclasses Kun); and singlehandedly gave tough time to an Imperial Strike Team (formed of 4 of the galaxies' bad@sses) after enduring 3 centuries of torture.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How exactly he have shown himself to be a superior lightsaber duelist?

Its funny that Revan have never ended up disarmed in any lightsaber clash.


Its funny that Revan defeated a master Sorcerer in a matter of seconds; came close within striking distance of Vitiate (who utterly outclasses Kun); and singlehandedly gave tough time an Imperial Strike Team (formed of 4 of the galaxies' bad@sses) after enduring 3 centuries of torture.

I'm not saying I agree with X here, but I have to address this:

1. Exar Kun, once he becomes DLotS, is never defeated in combat, ever. Even saber prodigy and Mandalore defeating badass Ulic can only stalemate him. His dominance of his 600 year old saber master Vodo is pretty impressive as is his ridiculous Force strength.

2. Exar Kun tanked Sever Force, which was developed and perfected on the ancient Sith Empire in a war of genocide and then murdering the master with a wave of his hand, destroyed the spirit of Freedan Nadd with a punch (said spirit could heal and attack individuals across space), pimpslapped Aleema before she could blink, and avoided being obliterated with the combined strength of ten thousand Jedi attempting to wall off Yavin IV with light.

I'm not saying Kun solos here with ease, but I think you're also misrepresenting things here with your wording. A's feats do not preclude B's.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How exactly he have shown himself to be a superior lightsaber duelist?

Its funny that Revan have never ended up disarmed in any lightsaber clash.


Its funny that Revan defeated a master Sorcerer in a matter of seconds; came close within striking distance of Vitiate (who utterly outclasses Kun); and singlehandedly gave tough time an Imperial Strike Team (formed of 4 of the galaxies' bad@sses) after enduring 3 centuries of torture.

1. first off, he's created his own lightsaber form, showing very high technical mastery and skill with the lightsaber outright. Secondly, he (easily?) defeated Vodo Siosk Baas, who was a jedi weaponsmaster/battlemaster who specialized in physical aspects of combat and had 600 years to improve himself.

2. Kun's never lost a serious lightsaber duel...

3. :facepalm:
She never used any forms of sith sorcery, did she? Exactly, so don't bring up that bs. Yeah, he came close to striking distance of Vitiate only because Vitiate was channeling his power for a force wave, which ultimately sent Revan flying backward. Vitiate utterly outclasses Revan as well...
People have brought up a good argument that he did have plenty and ample time to recover from being vitiate's prisoner.

SJones91109
1. At the same time, Kun hasn't faced anyone like the Sith Emperor. I'm not saying that Revan wins, just pointing that out.


I don't question the force sever technique, but I question the age and power of its user.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Simply trying to point out that Revan will only seemingly win with his force abilities.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. first off, he's created his own lightsaber form, showing very high technical mastery and skill with the lightsaber outright. Secondly, he (easily?) defeated Vodo Siosk Baas, who was a jedi weaponsmaster/battlemaster who specialized in physical aspects of combat and had 600 years to improve himself.

2. Kun's never lost a serious lightsaber duel...
So both Revan and Kun have never lost in a lightsaber duel? I see.

Keep in mind that effectiveness in Jedi dueling arts is not just dependent on technical skill but on Force Mastery as well. Revan is an extremely effective lightsaber duelist not because of his technical knowledge but because of his amazing Force Mastery.

Honestly, it is impossible to decide whom is more effective duelist among these two.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
3. :facepalm:
She never used any forms of sith sorcery, did she? Exactly, so don't bring up that bs.
Do you realize that Sith Sorcery can also be used to increase the effectiveness of Force powers? What if her signature lightning was Sorcery-augmented?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, he came close to striking distance of Vitiate only because Vitiate was channeling his power for a force wave, which ultimately sent Revan flying backward. Vitiate utterly outclasses Revan as well...
Revan came within the striking distance of Vitiate in holistic/logical context. Such level of performance is beyond the wildest dreams of majority of Force-users in the mythos.

In-fact, Revan possessed such level of Force Mastery that he could create new Force powers by himself. Mr. Karpyshyn confirmed this to me via email before he wrote a novel about him and TOR was released.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
People have brought up a good argument that he did have plenty and ample time to recover from being vitiate's prisoner.
And how much he recovered?

I fully understand that Revan was an expert in Jedi healing arts as well. He could heal even severe injuries within a short span of time (like T-1000).

However, centuries of torture can seriously mess-up any individual mentally. Revan may have fully recovered/healed physically but not mentally after going through such an ordeal.

The Merchant
Revan. By this time he is one of the top 5 strongest Jedi of all time.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Kun also has amazing mastery over the force. Kun defeating a weaponsmaster who has 600 years of experience/honing his skills, stalemating droma far before his prime, etc are more impressive Revan's saber feats imo. Also note that Kun has a saberstaff, which he changes the hilt length during battle to throw his opponents off balance.

Has lightning ever been sorcery augmented? You're just speculating now.

Again, it's because Vitiate was gathering his energy, as depicted in the novel

hey Legend, out of honest curiosity, do you have the e-mails about Revan being skilled in all forms of lightsaber combat/being able to create new powers? Would be interesting to see if it's real.

ares834
Like before, I'm going to give this to Revan. Close fight though.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Kun also has amazing mastery over the force. Kun defeating a weaponsmaster who has 600 years of experience/honing his skills, stalemating droma far before his prime, etc are more impressive Revan's saber feats imo. Also note that Kun has a saberstaff, which he changes the hilt length during battle to throw his opponents off balance.
Revan cannot be fairly judged in this department with limited documentation of his exploits.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Has lightning ever been sorcery augmented? You're just speculating now.
Sith Sorcery represents purest expressions of dark side abilities. It can be used in many ways:

1. To unleash Force powers entirely based on it.
2. To augment traditional/independent Force powers with it.
3. In ritualistic ways.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Again, it's because Vitiate was gathering his energy, as depicted in the novel
SWTOR(E) clarifies that Revan came within striking distance of Sith Emperor. At which point he actually accomplished this is not important to me.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
hey Legend, out of honest curiosity, do you have the e-mails about Revan being skilled in all forms of lightsaber combat/being able to create new powers? Would be interesting to see if it's real.
Yes.

Here are some of his responses:-

"though he was skilled in all of them - he was always more of a generalist than a specialist."

"And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building; it would really depend on his state of mind and the circumstances."

Unfortunately, I do not have access to the communication in which he confirmed to me that Revan could create new Force powers.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Fair enough

Has it ever been used to augment basic powers?

well, we read the actual battle, and it was at the very beginning that revan came within striking distance.

thx for the quotes. Actually it's interesting, because to be skilled in Juyo, one must be a, "high end master of multiple forms."

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Has it ever been used to augment basic powers?
I guess so. Sith lightning is not a basic Sith application by the way.

The "swirling storm of pure dark side energies" unleashed by Vitiate on Revan seems to be Sorcery-augmented application.

In contrast, here is a description of a pure Sith Sorcery based application:-

They were made of pure dark side energy, and there was no way he could harm them.

---

So we do have the concept of China variety in Force applications. laughing out loud

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, you know what I mean

Possibly the author's term for an FLS

thumb up

lol

S_W_LeGenD
In-fact, Sith Sorcery is a specialized branch of Sith Inquisitor curriculum.

Sorcerers wield the power of the dark side to lay waste to their enemies. By bending the Force to their will, sorcerers also use the dark side to mend wounds and shield worthy allies. Whether cutting down a foe with a lightsaber or dominating them with a storm of Force lightning, a Sith sorcerer displays terrifying power on and off the battlefield. (SWTORE, Page 182)

Nephthys
Speculating that Nyriss was using sorcery is dumb.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Speculating that Nyriss was using sorcery is dumb.
It is a possibility.

Check the quote above.

Nephthys
Its also a possibility that she was amped off the power of goblin wishes and gumdrop smiles, that doesn't make it plausible to consider.

SJones91109
It's a possibility that you like dudes too so if we're going with your line of thinking, then anything's possible.

Nephthys
Et tu, SJones91109?

SJones91109
Dude I don't speak non white.

NewGuy01
Exar Kun wins without a doubt.

SJones91109
Nice argument.

NewGuy01
No one provided an argument to counteract my statement, therefore it's a pretty good argument as I have nothing to contradict.

SJones91109
Right anyways I think it should be assumed that we ignore all the new children.


Revan is a relative unknown with a blade but I'd give that to Kun just for the simple fact that he created his own style and donkey stomped his teacher. In terms of force abilities, it's pretty even. I'd even give Revan the nod here but the wildcard is going to be the amulet blasts.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by NewGuy01
No one provided an argument to counteract my statement, therefore it's a pretty good argument as I have nothing to contradict.

So if I said "No, you're wrong", what will you bring to the table besides opinion?

NewGuy01
That Revan's feats simply don't compare to Exar Kun's. We'll get to lightsaber skills later, though I can say right now that Kun's got mroe going for him, but lets look at a comparison of Force Abilties:

Revan:

-Pushed open a blast door
-Caused a stone archway to collapse
-Force Pushed Vitiate
-Absorbed and redirected Nyriss's lightning
-Drew Karpyshyn said he believes he could collapse a building under the right circumstances.
-Healed himself pretty fast after his meltdown from Vitiate's lightning.

Exar Kun:

-With amulet blasts, has torn gaping holes in Leviathans, incinerated Sithspawn, and busted through stone walls.
-Using Sith Magic, he was able to freeze the minds of the entire Galactic Senate, which consisted of thousands of members.
-Telepathically destroyed the mind of the current Supreme Chancellor.
-During his time at the Jedi Praxeum, held 12 Jedi Knights in a Choke Hold at once.
-Ragdolled Sylvar, a renowned and notable Jedi Knight of the time.
-While influencing Kyp Durron, he taught him how to utilize Dark Side Tendrils--Which means he also knew the technique. DST's are beastly as hell, just look at Zannah vs Bane.
-Killed ancient Jedi Master Odan Urr with an unknown Force Attack.
-Heavily implied mastery of Force Illusions.
-Ritualistically drained the life forces of the entire Massassi race.
-Quite a bit more that I may get to later.

It's pretty clear that Revan's outstripped in a Force Contest alone.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
That Revan's feats simply don't compare to Exar Kun's.
Wrong

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Pushed open a blast door
Two gigantic blast doors simultaneously to be precise and Revan was being very calculative during this moment because he did not wanted to destroy these doors.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Caused a stone archway to collapse
Yes! A big one to be precise.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Force Pushed Vitiate
This required him to reach almost oneness like state with combined usage of light and dark sides of the Force; could be possibly a new undefined telekinetic application. This event alone puts Revan far above majority of Force-users in telekinetic aspects.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Absorbed and redirected Nyriss's lightning
FLS to be precise which was potent enough to destroy powerful Force-users. Kun haven't demonstrated this capability.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Drew Karpyshyn said he believes he could collapse a building under the right circumstances.
Yes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Healed himself pretty fast after his meltdown from Vitiate's lightning.
Yes. Kun haven't demonstrated this capability.

---

During confrontation with an Imperial Strike Team of 4 bad@sses, Revan utilized following talents to prevent it from striking him down:-

1. Asteroid pulling telekinetic feat to disorient Strike Team formation and effectiveness
2. FLS
3. Protective bubble which granted invincibility
4. Teleportation talent
5. Battle precognition

---

Revan have knowledge of lot of Force powers and Sith applications. He is superior to even Sith Truimvirate in Force Mastery aspects.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's pretty clear that Revan's outstripped in a Force Contest alone.
No

S_W_LeGenD
I recall that Revan have extremely impressive telepathic capabilities as well:-

1. Telepathically forced the Rakatan(s) to communicate in Basic language with him without destroying their minds.
2. Telepathically influenced even the mighty Sith Emperor in subtle ways.
3. Could telepathically interact with/influence another Force-user across the span of galaxy.

Revan also knew about how to unleash Thought Bomb without a ritual and siphon energies from a potential target to fuel his own.

S_W_LeGenD

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Two gigantic blast doors simultaneously to be precise and Revan was being very calculative during this moment because he did not wanted to destroy these doors.

Weren't those doors able to be opened by two men?

Nephthys

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
Weren't those doors able to be opened by two men?
Only Imperial Guard handled those doors and you know that they can draw upon the power of Sith Emperor when necessary.

In addition, those doors were locked when Revan forced them open.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That she was a sorcerer is irrelevant. Force lightning isn't a sorcery technique and isn't known to be amped by sorcery. Your speculation is baseless.
Sith Sorcerers have actually invented lot of Sith powers; Sith lightning could be among these inventions. Sith Lords often delve into the field of Sith Sorcery to bolster their offensive options/capabilities, though few manage to excel in this field.

You overlooked this information:

Sorcerers wield the power of the dark side to lay waste to their enemies. By bending the Force to their will, sorcerers also use the dark side to mend wounds and shield worthy allies. Whether cutting down a foe with a lightsaber or dominating them with a storm of Force lightning, a Sith sorcerer displays terrifying power on and off the battlefield. (SWTORE, Page 182)

Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock most potent/destructive dark side abilities and is not restricted in its use. Its main purpose is to grant a Force-user greater variety of options and effectiveness to influence his/her surroundings then norm.

My point is that Nyriss may or may not have bolstered her offensive options with her Sith Sorcery talent. But being a Sorcerer, it makes sense for her to do so when necessary. Her signature lightning was far more potent then norm.

In-fact, Nyriss seems to be a mashup of both Bane and Zannah, conceptualization wise.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Weren't those doors able to be opened by two men?
thumb up



Throwing boulders is Revan's best feat.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Nephthys
I would err on the side of caution in regards to Kun's abilities as a ghost, since he did them after absorbing the energy of an entire race, as you said.

Even if he was more powerful, which honestly isn't true, it's unreasonable to assume that he learned new powers when he drained the Massassi. He already knew how to create the Tendrils.

Also--his absorption of the Massassi race went completely into keeping him alive everlastingly, not his combat prowess.

Force Spirits are actually rather weak compared to the original individuals.

Nephthys
Of course. His knowledge would be unaffected.

We can't be sure of that. When others such as Vitiate performed such a ritual it increased his power as well.

Do you have proof of that? I've heard it said by others but I've never seen anything stating it. The comics and TOR depict ghosts as incredibly powerful. No less so than a living person.

NewGuy01
Because they're such pushovers that it's ridiculous. For instance:

-Marka Ragnos decided he'd be more effective in possessing Tavion then fighting himself.

-Freedon Nadd was 1 shotted by Exar Kun, despite being a formidable Sith Lord on tier with Orbalisk Bane.

-Exar Kun, for all of his power, was cut down rather easily by a couple of Jedi Knights. This would never have happened to his physical self.

NewGuy01
Oh, and Freedon Nadd muses that he is eager to regain his physical form and taste true power again right before Kun betrays him.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because they're such pushovers that it's ridiculous. For instance:

-Marka Ragnos decided he'd be more effective in possessing Tavion then fighting himself.

-Freedon Nadd was 1 shotted by Exar Kun, despite being a formidable Sith Lord on tier with Orbalisk Bane.

-Exar Kun, for all of his power, was cut down rather easily by a couple of Jedi Knights. This would never have happened to his physical self.

- Because then he could use his scepter to revive himself. Whereas if Jaden had killed Tavion he was ****ed even if he did manage to beat him. If not, he likely could have beaten Jaden since you need special techniques to affect spirits that Jaden didn't possess.

- I don't think any amount of power can help you if someone sticks a gauntlet of buttfvcking through your chest. Kun cheapshot him and took him down before Nadd could resist.

- I don't know anything about this, but wasn't he choking 12 Jedi in that book? He hardly seemed to be weak.

ares834
Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Freedon Nadd was 1 shotted by Exar Kun, despite being a formidable Sith Lord on tier with Orbalisk Bane.

erm

Intrepid37
lol, Kun one-shotted Nadd who is orbalisk Bane level?

NewGuy01
Orbalisk Bane said in RoT that he considers Freedon Nadd his equal, so I wouldn't say he's on so low a level as being one shotted by someone weaker than Orbalisk Bane normally.

Nephthys
Does he? Do you have the quote or scene where he says it? That would really boost my impression of Nadd.

The Merchant
The ritual Kun did made him powerful to the point his physical self was destroyed and had to be stopped by that wall of light technique. I am certain that Kun's spirit is more powerful than his physical self, which is why I don't think his feats from JA should be applied to his feats in DLOTS.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Nephthys
Does he? Do you have the quote or scene where he says it? That would really boost my impression of Nadd.

Sure, just give me a bit to find it.

NewGuy01
Alright, sorry, doesn't say quite what I remembered. The quote actually says that Bane believes his power measures up to powerful Sith Lords such as Freedon Nadd. Doesn't neccessarily mean he's saying they're on his level, though it's sorta implied.

Anyway, I don't actually regard Nadd to be on par with Orbalisk Bane per se, but the fact that Bane looks so highly upon him only to be one-shotted by Exar Kun's likes don't add up. And Nadd himself says that having a physical form will allow him to wield the power he once had, so that really sums up my actual point.

Allankles
Originally posted by Nephthys
- Because then he could use his scepter to revive himself. Whereas if Jaden had killed Tavion he was ****ed even if he did manage to beat him. If not, he likely could have beaten Jaden since you need special techniques to affect spirits that Jaden didn't possess.

- I don't think any amount of power can help you if someone sticks a gauntlet of buttfvcking through your chest. Kun cheapshot him and took him down before Nadd could resist.

- I don't know anything about this, but wasn't he choking 12 Jedi in that book? He hardly seemed to be weak.

Ragnos entered Tavion to save the plan, which was to get a physical vessel that could house his immense spirit. His spirit could have beat Korr, but I suspect spirits are less stable to force attacks.

The spirits are powerful but can be easily dispersed with the force. Being able to manipulate the force allows a Jedi to affect spirits - that's why it's the Force.

NewGuy01
And you know, Spirits are defenseless. Exar Kun was killed by vastly weaker opponents simply because they could slash him with a lightsaber and he had no way to defend against it because he's a ****ing spirit.

Nephthys
I would agree with that. Spirits are extremely powerful and can't be affected conventionally but are defenseless if you can affect them. In TOR the Inquisitor gets pwned by the first 2 spirits she meets but after getting the Force-Walking ritual they're all easily cowed before her without even fighting back.

However, SWTORE says this about them - "Sith entites tend to be powerful....impressed by the powerful Force spirits.......their dominating power."

The_Tempest
The Emperor's commentary in The Essential Guide to the Force suggests that disembodied Sith seek physical reincarnation in order to "enjoy the pleasures of the flesh."

http://i.imgur.com/EZeLU.gif

I'd need to consult the various sources, but I'm unaware of any EU source that intimates spectral form is more powerful than organic form or vice versa. Going off what Palpatine says, a physical body is probably more desirable because the Sith in question can then manipulate and interact with reality beyond Force use. Not to mention that while a body is free to go wherever it wills, a Sith spirits generally require some sort of cosmic anchor: sarcophagi, arcana, a dark side nexus, etc.

Nephthys
Thanks babe. wink

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