Cipher 9 and the Great Champion of the Hunt vs. Agen Kolar and Saesse Tiin

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Mizukage Yoda
The Heroes of the Sith Empire take on two of the greatest blademasters the order has ever produced. How do they fare?


1. Force excellent
2. Sabers biscuits (and weapons)
3. All out.

Nephthys
Cipher 9 completes dominates in the Force. That dude has some bonkers feats.

Champion solos for sabers.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
TBH in an all out cipher and champ have a great chance of winning.

Nephthys
I agree. Kolar and Tiin have never struck me as impressive for Council members. I'd say the Champion could take either of them.

To be honest though Cipher 9 is the weakest of the TOR classes from a lore perspective (unless we count his feat of beating up Darth Jadus in which case WOAH) and hasn't really done more than fight through small armies and beat Jedi and highly advanced droids. He will still be highly irritating to fight with stealth and shields 'capable of deflecting lightsabers and vehicle-mounted heavy weapons with ease" on top of an array of grenades, toxins and high-powered rifles/snipers..... but I don't see him taking down either of the Jedi by himself. I do however think he can he irritating and hard to fight enough to let the Champion kill one of the Jedi and then doubleteam the other.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also we can count the champion's killing of tormen, who is more powerful than either of these jedi. I think the cipher can kill one of the masters, if the champion manages to keep both at bay (which he is probably capable of).

Nephthys
I generally do count it since I believe its the canon policy to assume Lightside for games unless actually stated (like in the case of Nox where SWTORE says she 'embraced the dark side'. In fact I believe the Inquisitor is the only SW character to be DS by canon).

The Champion's flamethrower can fill 'entire rooms' in 'a single flame burst' and take down even Jedi and Sith according to SWTORE and they carry 'dozens' of highly compact but powerful missiles that possess 'unmatched stopping power.'

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The only thing, say, Kolar has going for him is swordsmanship, and the Champion has killed some incredibly skilled swordmasters.

NewGuy01
If they get their extra PIS powers, team 1 stomps.

Logically team 2 just floors them with the Force, though.

Nephthys
Sure, like everyone does to Grievous.

Kolar and Tiin aren't good enough to pwn them with the Force like that.

NewGuy01
These guys aren't huge cyborgs made of heavy durasteel plate. They're just people, and considering Ki-Adi Mundi could lift large skiffs and Saesee himself has sent battledroids flying several kilometers (in exaggerated material, that is).

Nephthys
The Great Champion wears heavy durasteel plate though. :V

SIDIOUS 66
Is he as fast as Grievous?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Seemingly not, however despite this, the champion has defeated 3 vastly impressive saber duelists/force wielders anyways, these being Kellian Jarro (solo'ed over 100 mandalorians), Jun Seros (battlemaster of the order), and Darth Tormen (dark council member).

Mizukage Yoda
Tiin threw a battle droid kilometers, and Kolar's swordsmanship is stated multiple times to be significant.

Nephthys
As Newguy said, he threw that droid while in a Clone Wars comic, which is known to be an exaggeration.

Jun Seros' swordsmanship was also noted to be significant. He lost.

Intrepid37
Everything but the movies are exaggerated. Saying otherwise is a double-standard.

Nephthys
Not they aren't.

Stigma

Nephthys
I say embrace both.

But recognize that TFU and the CW mini are exaggerated in terms of power levels and feats.

Other aspects of the EU are not.

Intrepid37
Personally, it's not the exaggerations themselves I ignore, it's the inconsistencies.

I'm not ignoring Yoda smashing huge aircrafts because he's supposed to be the most powerful Jedi of that time, is about even with Sidious, but I ignore Mace humiliating droid armies because it's inconsistent with his average showings, not because it's exxagerated.

Stigma
Even Nihilus's drain, Sidious's force storm, or Luke manipulating f*cking black hole? Give me a break.

As of RotS Sidious is considered to be the most powerful Sith Lord and all he does is TK'ing senate pods and making stupid faces, while in EU random Jedi can topple buildings (the one fighting Malgus) or tackle huge debris.

In comparison to the movies or even CW series these feats are retarded in their awesomeness. smile

Nephthys
Yes. They are not exaggerations, merely highly powerful examples of Force use. All of those people are at the top of the hierarchy in terms of power.

Its as Intrepid says, there is no inconsistency because those people are the best, so crazy force powers are to be expected.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. They are not exaggerations, merely highly powerful examples of Force use. All of those people are at the top of the hierarchy in terms of power.

Its as Intrepid says, there is no inconsistency because those people are the best, so crazy force powers are to be expected.
That said, there is no inconsistency with Tiin showing ''highly powerful examples of Force use'' as you put it.

Nephthys
Hmmm, no I'm going to say there is.

Intrepid37
Prove it.

Nephthys
No, you prove its not inconsistent. What has Tiin done outside of the CW mini to make you think he could toss a droid four kilometers?

Intrepid37
I'm unaware of where Tiin appears outside the CW mini.

Regardless, you're asking me to prove a negative: that Tiin hasn't been portrayed in other sources proves it's not an inconsistency.

Nephthys
Haha, then I say its inconsistent cuz he's done nothing outside of it to suggest he can throw a droid that far.

I win.

Stigma

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Haha, then I say its inconsistent cuz he's done nothing outside of it to suggest he can throw a droid that far.

I win.
You don't get it. no expression

He needen't do anything else... because he just did it.

If he had five other feats where he struggles immensly to do something far inferior, yes, it'd be an inconsistency.

By asking me to prove it's not an inconsistency, you're naturally suggesting that he can't do said inconsistency under other circumstances. It's up to you to prove the burden, not me, and since Tiin has no other appearences, he's done nothing suggesting the feat to be inconsistent.

Your burden is impossible to prove.

I win.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
I say embrace both.

But recognize that TFU and the CW mini are exaggerated in terms of power levels and feats.

Other aspects of the EU are not.


You are so full of shit. Yoda who was the most powerful Jedi of all times up to that point smashes 300m vessels together with ease isn't comparable to mooks like Nihilus lifting fleets, and Vitiate draining planets? The fact that you can't see that they are both exaggerated just shows your ridiculous bias.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I agree with Yoda here.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Intrepid37
You don't get it. no expression

He needen't do anything else... because he just did it.

No. You see, thats where you don't get it. Yes, he did it.

In exaggerated material.

Thats why we are discussing whether it should be counted and not seen as an exaggeration at all. Because every other character in the cartoon and related material performs way above what they do in other materials (oh yeah son, that includes Yoda. Come at me bro), why should his feats not be equally as suspect as theirs?

His feats are inconsistent because the entire cartoon is inconsistent.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are so full of shit.

Always a good opening line.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yoda who was the most powerful Jedi of all times up to that point

That quote isn't binding.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
smashes 300m vessels together with ease isn't comparable to mooks like Nihilus lifting fleets, and Vitiate draining planets?

I assume you mean comparable in the sense that they're not comparably exaggerated? Because they're kind of comparable in the other sense.

These are complete bollocks examples though. Nihilus is a complete anolomy, he's that powerful because he's exponentially expanded his power through the consumption of other Force users. How is it an exaggeration that a guy uses a method to vastly increase his power to the extent where it is explicitly said in the game that he's WAAY outside the norm in terms of power and then..... he's really powerful! GASP! So inconceivable! So illogical! And Vitiate did that with the help of EIGHT THOUSAND other Sith Lords. Bwut yeah, its weally stwoopid.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The fact that you can't see that they are both exaggerated just shows your ridiculous bias.

No, its shows that I'm not wiling to discount feats on personal ****ing opinion. You think they are exaggerated? Good for you. Canonically, they are not. That is as far as it registers for me. You guy can act as if they should be treated as exaggerations if you want, but that attitude has no basis in fact or canon and is completely your made up opinion.

But I'm so sorry for not buying what you're selling. I'm such a fanboy.

Intrepid37
lmao

Nephthys
It really does shatter credulity that a guy who is really powerful would do a really powerful thing. Or that 8000 Sith Lords working together could drain a planet. Thats just dumb man.

Clearly they're both just exaggerated.

Intrepid37
Yeah, I mean, there's NO CHANCE Tiin is able to throw a battledroid couples of kilometers, right?

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
I say embrace both.

But recognize that TFU and the CW mini are exaggerated in terms of power levels and feats.

Other aspects of the EU are not.

A ridiculous double standard.

Intrepid37
Ares and Yoda called it.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
A ridiculous double standard.

Why? Both of them have been said to be exaggerated and even by the standards of the EU they are retardedly powerful.

Other materials have not been said to be exaggerated in that manner. Arguing that they are has no basis.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah, I mean, there's NO CHANCE Tiin is able to throw a battledroid couples of kilometers, right?

Of course there is and I could always be wrong. But theres no feat suggesting it outside of exaggerated material.

Intrepid37
Where have they said to be exaggerated?

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why? Both of them have been said to be exaggerated and even by the standards of the EU they are retardedly powerful.

Other materials have not been said to be exaggerated in that manner. Arguing that they are has no basis.

I'm still waiting for some one to provide the quote that both are exaggerated. And, when compared to the movies, of course they are exaggerated, but then so is the entire EU. In the movies lifting an X-Wing is a great feat, in the EU every Dick and Jane can do it.

And it does have basis in the "foggy window" quote. Ironically, since TFU and CW has Lucas involved they are both "more canon" than the rest of the EU.

Nephthys
Hayden Blackman has talked about the concept of the Force Unleashed and clarified that they're exaggerating powerlevels in the material. That was the entire point of TFU.

The clone wars cartoon is canon but the makers have stated that the action is deliberately exaggerated, only the events that happened within them are canon. Filoni has also said it was exaggerated:

The 2003 series was very exaggerated, not just in design but in its storytelling and action.

Originally posted by ares834
And it does have basis in the "foggy window" quote. Ironically, since TFU and CW has Lucas involved they are both "more canon" than the rest of the EU.

No not really. The "foggy window" quote has the potential to apply but theres nothing indicating it does.

ares834
Have the Blackman quote?

Anyway, both are still a more accurate portrayal of events than TOR or the majority of the EU.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hayden Blackman has talked about the concept of the Force Unleashed and clarified that they're exaggerating powerlevels in the material. That was the entire point of TFU.
Quote and source.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The clone wars cartoon is canon
thumb up

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
No not really. The "foggy window" quote has the potential to apply but theres nothing indicating it does.

Yes, there is.

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play."

And TOR is pretty far from the movies. By contrast, TFU and CW involve movie characters, are set in the movies time frame, and had Lucas involved. In other words, less "interpretation and speculation come into play."

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
Yes, there is.

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play."

And TOR is pretty far from the movies. By contrast, TFU and CW involve movie characters, are set in the movies time frame, and had Lucas involved. In other words, less "interpretation and speculation come into play."

Thats a retarded interpretation. laughing

ares834
Concession accepted.

TOR being farther removed from the movies in virtually every sense is, thus, a foggier window.

Nephthys
o0GhBraBUGc

Several mentions of the action being over the top and Blackman says at the beginning that TFU is akin to a superhero game. He also calls it a 'reinvisioning of the Force.' The guy at the end specifically says 'we want to take what people know from the movies and take it waaay out of control.'

Like, thats the whole concept of the Force 'unleashed'. erm Why do I even need to prove this?

LWnC8UAWQ18

Oh gee, I wonder what the video called 'Force wrecking ball' could be about. :I

ares834
So no mention of it being exaggerated just unleashed.

thumb up

Glad that's cleared up.

Nephthys
Derp. It must be hard not being able to read or hear words.

ares834
Nope. All he is saying is that Starkiller is not showing any restraint and "Unleashing" the force and that the action is "over the top". Nothing about exaggerating it at all.

pencilcrayon
Originally posted by ares834
So no mention of it being exaggerated just unleashed.

thumb up

Glad that's cleared up. That only refers to the game and not the novelization, right?

SIDIOUS 66
Neph, the makers of the original CW cartoons said that's what the jedi are capable if they unleashed their full power. If the makers at some other time did mention that the feats were exaggerated, then they sure did contradict what they said in the commentary on the DVDs. The only one who said that the feats in the animation were exaggerated was Filoni, who holds no authority over material that he wasn't involved in. But supposedly Lucas agreed with Filoni, but I've never seen a direct quote from Lucas himself, but I assume Filoni wouldn't lie.

And for arguments sake, let's say one the makers of the original cartoons did say the feats were exaggerated, why would you accept that as fact, but not accept Karpshyn's statement regarding Vitiate?

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
Nope. All he is saying is that Starkiller is not showing any restraint and "Unleashing" the force and that the action is "over the top". Nothing about exaggerating it at all.

"We want to reinvision the Force. We want to reinvision Star Wars. We want to take what people know from the movies and take that waaay out of control.'

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And for arguments sake, let's say one the makers of the original cartoons did say the feats were exaggerated, why would you accept that as fact, but not accept Karpshyn's statement regarding Vitiate?

Because Karpyshan specifically says what he's saying isn't canon? erm

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
"We want to reinvision the Force. We want to reinvision Star Wars. We want to take what people know from the movies and take that waaay out of control.'

Yeah, they did. But that's still not them saying that the action is exaggerated or non-canon or whatever. Rather that is saying they just turned up the dial to 11 (or 100 as that one guy says) for this game.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Put me on ignore, please!
Commands have been followed without casualties, general.

Nephthys
Woah, thats a bit extreme. I am being catty and grumpy but only because like 4 of you have been jumping down my throat and insulting me at once.

SIDIOUS 66
Hope you're not including me because I've not insulted you.

Nephthys
No, Sidious66, you were being very cordial. I just get defensive when 4 or 5 people all start arguing with me at once.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, they did. But that's still not them saying that the action is exaggerated or non-canon or whatever. Rather that is saying they just turned up the dial to 11 (or 100 as that one guy says) for this game.

Um, yes it is? 'Reinvisioning the Force' through letting the player do 'crazy, over-the-top things like crush ships and throw them against stormtroopers' equals exaggerating. Witwer even says that no Jedi in history has ever used the Force like Starkiller has. I mean I posted in the other thread an interview where Blackman talks about how he was asked what 'unleashing the Force' meant and he said 'like, pulling a star destroyer out of the sky.' The entire concept of the Force 'unleashed' is about exaggerating the ways the Force can be used and kicking ass with the Force. I'd likely already have an explicit quote for you if the link on Wookieeedia wasn't broken.

'Over the top' means exaggerated btw,

ares834
Nah. It doesn't. "Over the top" just means far more than usual.

Allankles
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not they aren't.

There was nothing exaggerated about the Clone Wars show, the war had given Jedi leeway to tap the darkside.

Which is why you had displays like Windu's on Dantooine, it was do or die.

Nephthys

ares834
So it could mean exaggerated, but does not necessarily have to and instead could mean excessive.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm such a fanboy.

Pretty much this. Sidious and Yoda are the most powerful force users up to that point or at the very least you must admit close to it. The feats in TCWs are consistent with other EU feats. Your sides arguments that TCWs and other sources are more exaggerated than say TOR and novels are based on the asinine insistence that video games like TOR are comparable mediums to movies. Which is downright stupid.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
A ridiculous double standard.

thumb up

Nephthys
Imma bored and looking through threads to see if I failed to reply to anyone.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Pretty much this. Sidious and Yoda are the most powerful force users up to that point or at the very least you must admit close to it.

Yes, I agree.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The feats in TCWs are consistent with other EU feats.

No. No they are not. If it was just Yoda's feats in TCW that we were talking about I'd be inclined to yes give him the benefit of the doubt and wouldn't second guess his feats, even if they are way above anything he's shown outside of that material. But we're not just talking about Yoda and we can't just say 'well everything else is exaggerated, but Yoda isn't.' Because that isn't how it works. Either everything is exaggerated, or nothing is. And unfortunately, everything in TCW is exaggerated.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Your sides arguments that TCWs and other sources are more exaggerated than say TOR and novels are based on the asinine insistence that video games like TOR are comparable mediums to movies. Which is downright stupid.

Show me a source saying that TOR or the novels are exaggerated. TCW is more exaggerated it because IT CANONICALLY IS. TOR is not. YOU think it is. YOU have absolutely no authority in the matter. YOU thinking that you can decide what is and is not exaggerated material is what is stupid. And completely and utterly baseless.

I am not a fanboy for refusing to accept your made-up fanon arguments. You think these texts are exaggerated? Prove it or lay off. Show even a shred of evidence.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Imma bored and looking through threads to see if I failed to reply to anyone.



Yes, I agree.



No. No they are not. If it was just Yoda's feats in TCW that we were talking about I'd be inclined to yes give him the benefit of the doubt and wouldn't second guess his feats, even if they are way above anything he's shown outside of that material. But we're not just talking about Yoda and we can't just say 'well everything else is exaggerated, but Yoda isn't.' Because that isn't how it works. Either everything is exaggerated, or nothing is. And unfortunately, everything in TCW is exaggerated.



Show me a source saying that TOR or the novels are exaggerated. TCW is more exaggerated it because IT CANONICALLY IS. TOR is not. YOU think it is. YOU have absolutely no authority in the matter. YOU thinking that you can decide what is and is not exaggerated material is what is stupid. And completely and utterly baseless.

I am not a fanboy for refusing to accept your made-up fanon arguments. You think these texts are exaggerated? Prove it or lay off. Show even a shred of evidence.

Not the way canon works. There's C-Canon, T-Canon, and G-canon. There's no such thing as Exaggerated canon. Either the feats are canon or they aren't. The Battle of Muunlist still happened, as do all the other feats in the cartoon. That's why its referenced in the ROTS commentary as the canon version of the events before the movie, that's why its referenced in source material. Also, Lucas has stated that EU people envision the force in a way that he does not. All of the EU is exaggerated. You don't need a statement to justify that.
When you have Sidious in the movie's best feat is ripping up pods, but then using fleet eating vortexes in the EU its clear that its exaggerated. When we have Vader clearly impaired by his suit in ROTJ where he's at the peak of power, but moving faster than the eye can see in other sources its clearly exaggerated.

When you have Darth Nihilus ripping fleets from worlds in one source, but similarly powered individuals struggling with X-Wing fighters, its obvious the EU is exaggerated.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
I am not a fanboy for refusing to accept your made-up fanon arguments. You think these texts are exaggerated? Prove it or lay off. Show even a shred of evidence.
I'm not sure why he's supposed to satisfy his burden when you haven't satisfied yours.

The_Tempest
Neph, where are these things "CANONICALLY" exaggerated?

Nephthys
In the cartoons and comics. Duh. erm

I don't see why you're questioning this, you agree that things like Starkiller and Windu's crazy as shit feats are not realistic depictions of their level of power.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not the way canon works. There's C-Canon, T-Canon, and G-canon. There's no such thing as Exaggerated canon. Either the feats are canon or they aren't. The Battle of Muunlist still happened, as do all the other feats in the cartoon. That's why its referenced in the ROTS commentary as the canon version of the events before the movie, that's why its referenced in source material. Also, Lucas has stated that EU people envision the force in a way that he does not. All of the EU is exaggerated. You don't need a statement to justify that.
When you have Sidious in the movie's best feat is ripping up pods, but then using fleet eating vortexes in the EU its clear that its exaggerated. When we have Vader clearly impaired by his suit in ROTJ where he's at the peak of power, but moving faster than the eye can see in other sources its clearly exaggerated.

I'm still not seeing an ounce of evidence here.

Uh, I think you'll find there is:

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

In this case TFU and TCW have been stated as being exaggerated So while yes, the events in those sources did happen, the depictions of them are hyperbolic in nature. Meanwhile I don't believe the rest of the EU has been given that description and so it does not apply until it is applied.

The speed thing has been clarified and is a non-issue. Sidious hocking pods at Yoda is like Vader or Sadow throwing objects at their opponents to gain an edge. It isn't indicative of their full abilities.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
When you have Darth Nihilus ripping fleets from worlds in one source, but similarly powered individuals struggling with X-Wing fighters, its obvious the EU is exaggerated.

Well unfortunately it being 'obvious' isn't very good evidence or indicative of canon.

The fact is that I don't have to prove TOR, Kotor II and other materials are not exaggerated. They are not exaggerated by default.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm not sure why he's supposed to satisfy his burden when you haven't satisfied yours.

I've done a hell of a lot more than any of you have. erm

The_Tempest
I agree that many characters' feats are exaggerated. Since you want to narrow the field according to your own biases, I'm going to need canonical proof that only the feats in TFU and CW are exaggerated.

Intrepid37
Neph isn't biased bro.

The_Tempest
It does sound contrary to his character.


lawl

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Since you want to narrow the field according to your own biases,

It isn't my own biases. Quite the opposite, I'm leaving my personal feelings out of this. TFU and TCW are the only sources with evidence of hyperbole or exaggeration, so those are the only ones I'm applying this to. Other sources do not, so I don't see why other people would even attempt to argue they are really, since all they have to go on to argue they are is personal opinion.

Intrepid37
What evidence of exaggeration does TFU and TCW have that the EU does not share?

The_Tempest
I'm going to need the "CANONICAL" proof, Neph. So far, I haven't seen any. Remember, canon > fanon!

Nephthys
I've given plenty of evidence in previous replies.

I'm certain you know they are already though. It would be rather pointless for me to waste time searching for the quotes etc considering that. The difference is that I know you don't have any evidence that the rest of the EU is exaggerated, so I'm only asking to force you to admit you don't have it.

Intrepid37
Common sense can't be quoted from a canon source, bro.

Nephthys
Common sense says that Vitiate possessing the power of 8000 Sith Lords should absolutely eclipse Sidious as humanity eclipses the amoeba. And yet that is not so.

Intrepid37
We both know it's not the same thing.

Nephthys
Ok.

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