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So there seems to be a bit of contraversy and disagreement on how powerful Mr.Hord is, as I'm intending to find an answer to this question myself.

So this thread is basically to debate how powerful he actually was.

Unknown. He's very much a character described largely in legend in not-entirely-reliable ways.

I dunno. Out of all the ancient Sith, the one you hear about the most is Tulak Hord during SWTOR. He seems like he was pretty damn influential, more so than even Marka Ragnos.

However, canonically he's less powerful than Exar Kun.

Yea, but we've also never even heard of him *outside* of SWTOR, and TOR is, after all, mainly his legend being talked about. Only the one unfrozen dude knew him.

There is the matter than his Jedi feat happened at a time when the Sith Empire was out of contact with the Jedi...

Sloppy writing, putting in major inconsistencies.

I've made this point many times. I'm not sure how the writers can so blatantly disregard long standing canon. The jedi and the sith never met each other until the Great Hyperspace War.

Yea, unless one counts the exiles and some of their immediate descendants themselves as 'Jedi' rather than Jedi proper.

I guess its just been retconned. I might poke around and see if this has ever been explained by the TOR staff.

Hord's lightsaber mastery was always a big issue, since he did not fit into the canon at the time. But then again, KotOR screwed up a lot of established canon. It takes place like 40 some years after The Sith Wars, yet everything looks different and none of the characters from that earlier property even make a live appearance.

From what I've gathered, I'd say Tulak Hord is a pretty damn formiddable lightsaber duelist, pretty beastly with TK (Though I'd assume the ship he pulled from the sky wasn't as big as Khem claimed it would be.), and his ritualistic powers are very impressive, and it's possible he could Force Walk like Nox for an external energy source. On top of this ,he seems to have knowledge of powers of madness. Which means Force Illusionsssssssss

So I'd say he's an edge below Exar Kun. I wonder if he could take down Vader or Dooku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
From what I've gathered, I'd say Tulak Hord is a pretty damn formiddable lightsaber duelist, pretty beastly with TK (Though I'd assume the ship he pulled from the sky wasn't as big as Khem claimed it would be.), and his ritualistic powers are very impressive, and it's possible he could Force Walk like Nox for an external energy source. On top of this ,he seems to have knowledge of powers of madness. Which means Force Illusionsssssssss

So I'd say he's an edge below Exar Kun. I wonder if he could take down Vader or Dooku.

If Tulak Hord can do all this, be an unparalleled saber duelist, and break a Jedi line of a thousand strong with his elite mook Khem, I don't see how Vader or Dooku could be superior. They've done nothing similar.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hord's lightsaber mastery was always a big issue, since he did not fit into the canon at the time. But then again, KotOR screwed up a lot of established canon. It takes place like 40 some years after The Sith Wars, yet everything looks different and none of the characters from that earlier property even make a live appearance.

There's also the matter that they take a fairly high-end view of force powers. Not as much as TFU, but a lot of flash. Obsidian especially, with their desire to cram so many legendary-strong force users all mysteriously at the same time plus throw in new unmentioned legends at the same time.

If Bioware or Obsidian did CW era stuff or Legacy or what have you, you can be sure all the major force users would be a lot more flashy too.

Originally posted by Q99
There's also the matter that they take a fairly high-end view of force powers. Not as much as TFU, but a lot of flash. Obsidian especially, with their desire to cram so many legendary-strong force users all mysteriously at the same time plus throw in new unmentioned legends at the same time.

If Bioware or Obsidian did CW era stuff or Legacy or what have you, you can be sure all the major force users would be a lot more flashy too.



Stylistic variation and creative interpretation always play a role; harkens back to the infamous "foggy window" doctrine as espoused by Christopher Cerasi that ares834 reintroduced today.

Creative liberties are taken within and across any era. Look at the visual media: we see an evolution of lightsaber combat and Force powers across the movies and the TV series. In the OT, the fighters were portrayed as methodical, pragmatic, and without flash. In the PT, they were acrobatic and agile. And in TCW, it takes an even greater leap. Compare Sidious's acrobatics in TCW to those in his duel against Mace or even Yoda. It's no contest.

Certain authors are known for a grandiose interpretation of the Force and its users (Karpyshyn, Stover, Williams, etc.) and others less so (Luceno, Zahn, Traviss, etc.).

Just playing with feat wars is absolutely silly.

So let me nail down your stance:

1. Because "foggy window", PT Jedi are much better than they appear in the only media in which they appear, and anything superior outside of their era is clearly just stylistic overdoing it on the part of the creators.

2. When I hear hoofbeats, I immediately think of Robot Zombie Jesus riding a Unicorn with Fire coming out of its Arse.

Alright, sounds like a valid and not at all contrived stance that in no way reaffirms your bias while cleverly selecting against any media which threatens it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So let me nail down your stance:

1. Because "foggy window", PT Jedi are much better than they appear in the only media in which they appear, and anything superior outside of their era is clearly just stylistic overdoing it on the part of the creators.

No, there's stylistic power in the PT too. Both TCW animated, and several PT Jedi in TFU.



And there's the matter that we have a lot of canon statements naming late-era Sith/Jedi as some of the strongest ever even with uber feats being a dime a dozen during the TOR era, and also stuff like the level of Jedi and Sith suddenly jumping from, say, the TOR prelude comics, wherein the likes of the Jedi Grand Master of the time and Vitiate's personal apprentice being portrayed in a more PT like manner, to the game itself, where just a few years later everyone's more flashy.



At the very least, that's an argument for flashy/big feats not necessarily translating to overall power in the force.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Because "foggy window", PT Jedi are much better than they appear in the only media in which they appear, and anything superior outside of their era is clearly just stylistic overdoing it on the part of the creators.

http://gifatron.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/spiderman_crying.gif

In lieu of a thoughtful, intelligent response, you could have just posted this very appropriate .gif and saved yourself the effort of cobbling words together. I think it captures the essence of your objections quite well!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Alright, sounds like a valid and not at all contrived stance that in no way reaffirms your bias while cleverly selecting against any media which threatens it.

Well, if we're not going to consider stylistic variations, creative differences, or general out-of-universe context that might possibly explain a poor performance by a character despite enormous hype and accolade attributed to him or her...

?v=zoFNJ7UophU#t=502

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/thumbs_down_gladiator.gif

Then much, if not all, of Vitiate's standing goes swirling down the shitter.

Vitiate was weakened, exhausted and possibly wounded judging by how he's holding his side Temp.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate was weakened, exhausted and possibly wounded judging by how he's holding his side Temp.

You are exhibiting the second case of TOR-induced schizophrenia; Patient Zero (Beefy) seems to be recovering well enough so I have hope for you as well.

But, to quote some insightful guy from another thread:



So this is the best defense that Vitiate, who is allegedly the baddest motherfvcker of all and who happens to be standing in the midst of an extraordinarily powerful dark side nexus which happens to stand in the heart of a city on a planet that "bristles" with dark side energy, can conjure?

Under the Moose's paradigm, this is pretty damning.

You're right. If we ignore that you're fighting a weakened Emperor's Voice.

It was confirmed to have been Vitiate himself. Neph will be more than willing to provide you with the youtube link and the scan from the encyclopedia that prove it.

No it wasn't. I've played the game and Neph wouldn't do such a thing. It was one of his Voice bodies and when it died, his spirit went back into his real body to take a nappy nap.

I don't know how to do scans. I think my printer can do it so if I really need to I'm sure I can google it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You are exhibiting the second case of TOR-induced schizophrenia; Patient Zero (Beefy) seems to be recovering well enough so I have hope for you as well.

But, to quote some insightful guy from another thread:



So this is the best defense that Vitiate, who is allegedly the baddest motherfvcker of all and who happens to be standing in the midst of an extraordinarily powerful dark side nexus which happens to stand in the heart of a city on a planet that "bristles" with dark side energy, can conjure?

Under the Moose's paradigm, this is pretty damning.

My argument has only been that he and the Hero were equal in strength when they fought, not that Vitiate was at his full power. I am merely explaining why it isn't inconsistent for Vitiate to seem less impressive in the cutscene considering how weak and exhausted he was. Its like complaining about how lame Sidious was when his body was dying and Han shot him in the back.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know how to do scans. I think my printer can do it so if I really need to I'm sure I can google it.

Or the youtube link where the creators confirm it would suffice.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My argument has only been that he and the Hero were equal in strength when they fought, not that Vitiate was at his full power. I am merely explaining why it isn't inconsistent for Vitiate to seem less impressive in the cutscene considering how weak and exhausted he was. Its like complaining about how lame Sidious was when his body was dying and Han shot him in the back.

Yes, it would be complaining how lame Sidious was when his body was dying and he suffered an ignominious death. Though it's actually not quite as lame as what happened with Vitiate since he was shot (1) in the back, (2) Han unwittingly served Sidious's need to shed his mortal coil, (3) Sidious wasn't on a dark side nexus, and (4) managed to lay waste to his attackers.

And, as you've constantly squawked since the beginning, Vitiate apparently had the energy to try and collapse the entire temple around them. So it really is inconsistent.

In fact, the entire fight scene is. Vitiate does nothing spectacular at all the moment the Hero shows up, from start to finish. If we use our heads, we can reconcile this and say, "low showing" from an otherwise extremely powerful character.

But playing it literally, with no thought to context, as the Moose suggests? It's pretty laughably bad.

It isn't youtube but I've profiled it (right at the bottom) for if you really want it.

And, no it isn't a low showing since the majority of the fight occurs in gameplay. We have no idea how epic the actual battle was. Though since it was termed as 'apocalyptic' I'd say it was rather impressive.

And we can only turn to the cutscenes for validation and the cutscenes show an extremely lame battle. Compared to the wankery surrounding him, he's demonstrating movie-level strength and skill at best.

There are plenty of more impressive fights from TOR, TCW, and a host of other canon.

Eh, not really (for TOR at least). TOR doesn't go out of its way to make big, visually impressive fights, preferring to just do it in gameplay. The only really impressive looking fight is Thanaton vs Nox.

But perhaps you were referring to the trailers, which are very impressive visually, but not above anything seen in the movies imo.

So how does Vitiate go from owning the entire strike team to losing to the Hero?

They got more powerful. Its implied the Hero is growing rapidly since Scourge says that if he'd fought the Hero when they first met on Quesh he could have destroyed them, whereas a mere planet later the Hero defeats him comfortably.

After that we see that Vitiate has actually been training the Hero for months on his fortress while they were under his control. So their power likely developed even further there and would continue to grow in Act III.

It was a rhetorical question DE, I've played the game.

As you said, Beefy, the game and its writers are retarded.

That was the answer I was going for.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As you said, Beefy, the game and its writers are retarded.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honestly, I sympathize with Janus, Nai, and the others on this issue now more than ever. The power hierarchy in ROTS went fvcking nuts: Dooku ragdolls Obi-Wan, but gets pwned by Anakin, who in turn duels with Obi-Wan for 3.5 hours without any real progress; Sidious b1tchslaps three Jedi Masters, loses to Mace for no reason, then beats Yoda. The explanations Stover and others had to come up with in order to rectify this situation are horrible, but I give them so much credit for trying.

The Flanneled Chins clearly didn't give a shit.

^ As if G-canon is any more sane. TCW cartoon characters act more like TOR/KotOR Era Jedi than their movie or novel counterparts, and OT Force users might as well be 4th level DnD wizards.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
^ As if G-canon is any more sane.

'Sane' is not a word I'd use to describe G-canon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
'Sane' is not a word I'd use to describe G-canon.

I think part of the reason why I detest SW more and more as time goes on is because GL never got a handle on it in the first place. He had every opportunity to create thorough narrative and setting and set the stage for proper EU. He doesn't have to be Tolkien-level worldbuilding awesome, but he could at least say, set down some hard rules on Force usage.

This all started with DE's stupidity and the original Exar Kun appearance, which opened the floodgates for the comics where they took the idea "Size matters not" as literally meaning "**** physics, *****; I'm a Force user".

I started a thread over at TFN polling people about their favorite depiction of the Force. I can't remember how I determined the quasi-arbitrary distinctions.

You have the school of Karpyshyn and Blackman, which is all about LOL BAM IN YOUR FACE FORCE DAMN LOL!

Then you have stuff from Avellone and Stover which have moments of the prior but mostly deal with the Force as an "ethereal" thing.

Then you have the PT/TCW which depict the Force as a useful and powerful, but not by any means infallible tool.

Then you have Zahn and the OT, which paint the Force as minimalist as possible.

I much preferred the OT, although some early PT era novels depict it very tastefully, such as The Approaching Storm, Cloak of Deception, Medstar Duology, etc.

But the flaw in your argument is that the Emperor is alive and well after the end of the Sith Warrior storyline, and sends you a mail saying he was 'wounded' by an unnamed Jedi Knight. So, it's quite possible that was a voice.

Many believe that to be a lie. As of yet its unverified.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I much preferred the OT, although some early PT era novels depict it very tastefully, such as The Approaching Storm, Cloak of Deception, Medstar Duology, etc.

I tend to prefer the Force as depicted in TCW, which is more liberal than the Force in the OT, but people aren't leveling temples, playing tug-o'-war with black holes, or blowing up starfleets.

Guess which one I like more.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I tend to prefer the Force as depicted in TCW, which is more liberal than the Force in the OT, but people aren't leveling temples, playing tug-o'-war with black holes, or blowing up starfleets. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bdEiMFVtnHo/TakIp3T87tI/AAAAAAAADXs/tMrDNrrQx2Y/s1600/a+toast.jpg

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I tend to prefer the Force as depicted in TCW, which is more liberal than the Force in the OT, but people aren't leveling temples, playing tug-o'-war with black holes, or blowing up starfleets.

The greater the Force power, the more it seems to eclipse the personal development and integrity of the character in some ways. I believe characters in SW should be interesting despite not being particularly powerful or in spite of it. Han Solo, Chewie, Leia, Wedge and Lando were interesting characters who (at the time in Leia's case) did not particularly kick ass or obviously display Force powers. Those who did in the OT were very mild and the emphasis was on the story, not the special effects.

Fast-forward to the PT era, and most of the visual media is chock-full of needless CGI, overdone fights (Yoda's fighting in AotC is in hindsight atrociously done) and non-Force using characters are pretty non-existent. Padme? She is stupid. Jar-Jar? No. Uh... who else exists in the PT that isn't a Force user of note? Like no one. Even Grievous is a footnote in the Clone Wars history, overshadowed by the likes of minor Force deities Opress, Maul, and Ventress.

One other thing that makes the video game characters tougher to compare to non- there's more tiers.

You can have "A stomps B stomps C stomps D stomps E, but E's still supposed to be really powerful," chains, while in other stuff, by the time you're four stomp tiers from the top, you're pretty low down and well out of the big badass zone. It's like the 'roughly equal' band is smaller in TOR or such.

That's why it's much better to judge a character by feats and not by statements of their power, although sometimes these statements cannot be ignored.

The statements of power aren't the problem. Character fights are feats, and by feats there's just a different number of tiers / it takes larger/smaller amounts of skill to stomp in different eras.

Another big problem is limited exposure; it's a lot easier for some people to say X is better because X has more fights under his or her belt, or is visibly faster (due to media differences).

But then sometimes statements of power are one-sided too. For example, "Anakin is the strongest Force user ever" is accepted at face value by a lot of people in this community, but Anakin hasn't displayed Force powers on the scale of say, DE Sidious, DE Luke, Exar Kun or Revan. His stalemate against Obi-Wan is all the more confusing as well.

However, with similar statements such as "darkest power in the universe", "the most powerful of the most powerful", are dismissed out of hand due to either bias or lack of media exposure. Or in some cases just because people don't like the character.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But then sometimes statements of power are one-sided too. For example, "Anakin is the strongest Force user ever" is accepted at face value by a lot of people in this community, but Anakin hasn't displayed Force powers on the scale of say, DE Sidious, DE Luke, Exar Kun or Revan. His stalemate against Obi-Wan is all the more confusing as well.


His stalemate against Obi-wan is something I don't find confusing- in movie and CGI clone wars, he's one tier down, and his style and familiarity gives him rock-paper-scissors like advantage against Anakin.


On the flip side, in the video games, you can have a massive Jedi killer like Sion, be solidly outmatched by the Exile, who's in turn well outmatch by Nyrss, who's outmatched by Revan, who's outmatched by Vitiate.

TOR's 5 tiers represent a range of power that in TCW and prequel trilogy would represent in 2-3 tiers.

Originally posted by Q99
His stalemate against Obi-wan is something I don't find confusing- in movie and CGI clone wars, he's one tier down, and his style and familiarity gives him rock-paper-scissors like advantage against Anakin.


On the flip side, in the video games, you can have a massive Jedi killer like Sion, be solidly outmatched by the Exile, who's in turn well outmatch by Nyrss, who's outmatched by Revan, who's outmatched by Vitiate.

TOR's 5 tiers represent a range of power that in TCW and prequel trilogy would represent in 2-3 tiers.

I don't think you quite understand though. Anakin's raw Force potential is supposed to be off of the charts, exceeding Yoda's by Qui-Gon's own determination. Within the movie-only canon, he peerless. His defeat of Dooku is typically chalked up to superior swordplay and strength due to his Force power, even though Dooku routinely manhandles Obi-Wan in the Force.

So why then is Obi-Wan able to hold his own in a direct Force push? There's no canon precedent for this making sense, given that Anakin's outperformed Obi-Wan in this area many times.

It's not the issue of fewer tiers; it's of tiers being so muddled on all sides it makes a clear, linear power chain pretty much impossible.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't think you quite understand though. Anakin's raw Force potential is supposed to be off of the charts, exceeding Yoda's by Qui-Gon's own determination. Within the movie-only canon, he peerless. His defeat of Dooku is typically chalked up to superior swordplay and strength due to his Force power, even though Dooku routinely manhandles Obi-Wan in the Force.


So why then is Obi-Wan able to hold his own in a direct Force push? There's no canon precedent for this making sense, given that Anakin's outperformed Obi-Wan in this area many times.

Because you don't need to be exactly equal to someone in an area to defend against it. There's multiple cases of this happening, Obi-wan defended against Dooku's lightning on occasion too. I'd say Obi-wan has focused his force skills more on defense and, if he can sufficiently anticipate an attack, hold off a stronger one.


That's rather my point- in some SW stuff, someone can be stronger but still not overwhelm the weaker one a good deal of the time. In other stuff, the same strength difference is more overwhelming.

Originally posted by Q99
Because you don't need to be exactly equal to someone in an area to defend against it. There's multiple cases of this happening, Obi-wan defended against Dooku's lightning on occasion too. I'd say Obi-wan has focused his force skills more on defense and, if he can sufficiently anticipate an attack, hold off a stronger one.


That's rather my point- in some SW stuff, someone can be stronger but still not overwhelm the weaker one a good deal of the time. In other stuff, the same strength difference is more overwhelming.

The idea of Obi-Wan being more defensive in general makes sense, but he was instantly overpowered by Dooku and struggled but ultimately stalemated Anakin. Again, this raises a concern about how this can be, unless Anakin had you know, leaked his Force strength out when he was stabbing Jedi earlier.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Another big problem is limited exposure; it's a lot easier for some people to say X is better because X has more fights under his or her belt, or is visibly faster (due to media differences).

The best approach is to draw from feats and accolades.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But then sometimes statements of power are one-sided too. For example, "Anakin is the strongest Force user ever" is accepted at face value by a lot of people in this community, but Anakin hasn't displayed Force powers on the scale of say, DE Sidious, DE Luke, Exar Kun or Revan. His stalemate against Obi-Wan is all the more confusing as well.

Anakin isn't the strongest Force user ever; only potentially. That a character is the recipient of numerous accolades and doesn't have the feats to match isn't really sufficient grounds to dismiss the accolade. Revan is a prime example of that: besides one or two impressive feats in the book, he's really done nothing special on-screen or in-text despite being one of the most openly fapped characters. Doesn't mean he's a weak feeb either.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
However, with similar statements such as "darkest power in the universe", "the most powerful of the most powerful", are dismissed out of hand due to either bias or lack of media exposure. Or in some cases just because people don't like the character.

Don't forget about the numerous times Palpatine's been called "the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The idea of Obi-Wan being more defensive in general makes sense, but he was instantly overpowered by Dooku and struggled but ultimately stalemated Anakin. Again, this raises a concern about how this can be, unless Anakin had you know, leaked his Force strength out when he was stabbing Jedi earlier.

Personally I take that as Dooku being quicker with and having more finesse in the force.

He got Obi-wan with the force, but not in a force push-off, rather before Obi-wan raised a defense.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hord's lightsaber mastery was always a big issue, since he did not fit into the canon at the time. But then again, KotOR screwed up a lot of established canon. It takes place like 40 some years after The Sith Wars, yet everything looks different and none of the characters from that earlier property even make a live appearance.

Fortunately this was retconned by having Vandar and Arca Jeth debating in the Noeticon of Secrets.


Also the galaxy is a big place, you never even reach Coruscant in KOTOR where most of those characters would have been.

So we need this again, apparently.

possibly Sirak tier, maybe above.

I don't see what put's him above Dreypa, let alone Muur, Sadow or even Ragnos tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
possibly Sirak tier, maybe above.

It all depends in your viewpoint:

If you take all the hype at face value and highball it, then I'd say he's in the gap between Ventress and Dooku. If you lowball it, he's somewhat below Ventress.

You can also ignore the hype altogether, and focus in his sole on-screen feat. If you highball it, he's unchained Vaylin-level. If you lowball it, he might as well be featless.

If you ignore the feat because it happened during gameplay, he is featless, and the only thing going for him is logical deductions based on his title as the strongest of his time. So he's about your average Dark Lord of the Sith-level.

Haazen level.

Originally posted by Azronger
It all depends in your viewpoint:

If you take all the hype at face value and highball it, then I'd say he's in the gap between Ventress and Dooku. If you lowball it, he's somewhat below Ventress.

You can also ignore the hype altogether, and focus in his sole on-screen feat. If you highball it, he's unchained Vaylin-level. If you lowball it, he might as well be featless.

If you ignore the feat because it happened during gameplay, he is featless, and the only thing going for him is logical deductions based on his title as the strongest of his time. So he's about your average Dark Lord of the Sith-level. Uh, no, if you highball it, he could potentially be in the same level as Plagueis.

Highballing it would be claiming that he is better then Exar Kun in lightsaber combat, and superior to Dooku or Maul in TK.

Lowballing it would be saying that none of the hype is true, and therefore, he is in the same tier as people like Sirak.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Uh, no, if you highball it, he could potentially be in the same level as Plagueis.

There is a difference between highballing and being a retard.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
There is a difference between highballing and being a retard. If you highball him, take everything ever said about him at face value, believe every single thing ever said about him, then yes, he could most DEFINITELY make Plagueis-level.

I don't see why you're trying to argue against that. There are already a few people that have him > Caedus.

Caedus being the person closest to Plagueis, him or Krayt.

Because Plagueis > Vitiate > Novel Vitiate > Exar > Marka > Tulak.

Also, slaughtering fodder isn't a Plagueis-level feat, lmao.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Because Plagueis > Vitiate > Novel Vitiate > Exar > Marka > Tulak. Valkorion would fry Plagueis. :/

One-shotting Unchained Vaylin, Senya, The Outlander with a power boost, and Arcann, inside the Outlander's mind, is way better then anything Plagueis has ever done.

How? Even highballed, I don't see how he beats Dooku.

Because he defeated thousands of Jedi at once..

Originally posted by Azronger
How? Even highballed, I don't see how he beats Dooku. Then there is something mentally wrong with you.

Hell, Exar Kun is already shown to be above Dooku as a combatant, as well as a duelist.

Tulak Hord is said to be the greatest sith duelist as of KOTOR II by Traya, taking that at face value would mean that he is above anyone who was ever a sith at that point in terms of dueling.

Not to mention, taking the Endar Spire feat at face value, as well as other shit. I can totally see how Hord would absolutely DESTROY Dooku.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Hell, Exar Kun is already shown to be above Dooku as a combatant, as well as a duelist.
No, he isn't.
LMFAO. Dooku threw bigger ships than the Endar Spire, and ragdolled Kenobi who, in turn, manipulated similar-sized ship's pre-prime.

Originally posted by ares834
Because he defeated thousands of Jedi at once..

Which is mainly a feat of stamina. Even someone like Raskta Lsu is an army buster, although on a smaller scale. Just because you can defeat multiple fodder enemies doesn't mean you can defeat a single powerful one.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then there is something mentally wrong with you.

Coming from you, that means I'm normal. But I'm not gonna waste my time on you. I'll leave that to Urs.

Originally posted by Azronger
Coming from you, that means I'm normal. But I'm not gonna waste my time on you. I'll leave that to Urs. Says the guy who believes Sidious can take thousands of Vaders. :/

Originally posted by Ursumeles
No, he isn't.
LMFAO. Dooku threw bigger ships than the Endar Spire, and ragdolled Kenobi who, in turn, manipulated similar-sized ship's pre-prime. I don't think you appreciate the scope of the Endar Spire, tbh :/.

He really is though.

Originally posted by Azronger
Coming from you, that means I'm normal. But I'm not gonna waste my time on you.


Depends on his argument, how/if I respond.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I don't think you appreciate the scope of the Endar Spire, tbh :/.

He really is though.
How big was it, again?

No, he isn't.
His best feat is statlemating Ulic pre-prime.
That isn't as good as holding off Anakin and Kenobi(both Ulic's superiors with a blade), contending with Yoda, beating up Asajj in a near-stomps or besting Grievous(who is arguably superior to Ulic as well).
BTW, TPM Dooku is canonically > Ulic(as well as the HoT and co.), and he grew more powerful as a Sith.

Around 300 meters.

Thanks.
Dooku's cruiser ragdolling is still comparable, and scaling from Rivi-Anu could make him very well superior.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
How big was it, again?

No, he isn't.
His best feat is statlemating Ulic pre-prime.
That isn't as good as holding off Anakin and Kenobi(both Ulic's superiors with a blade), contending with Yoda, beating up Asajj in a near-stomps or besting Grievous(who is arguably superior to Ulic as well).
BTW, TPM Dooku is canonically > Ulic(as well as the HoT and co.), and he grew more powerful as a Sith. They grew more powerful since then... buddy.

Ulic is better then Kenobi.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
They grew more powerful since then... buddy.

Ulic is better then Kenobi.
Who did? Do you mean Kun? Yeah, I said that already.

Based on what.

Who cares, it never happened, not worth discussing.

News flash, nothing from Star Wars ever happened.

http://i.imgur.com/Sey3IAy.gif

bump

Sub-Fisto.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sub-Fisto. lol

Jmango lol-ing at someone... Rather hypocritical.

Around Vader level, maybe a bit higher.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
lol

very weak and in general a loser

Originally posted by MythLord
Thank you for the tribute.

Vader would destroy Tulak.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Vader would destroy Tulak. Omg.

bump

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Vader would destroy Tulak.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
bump

stop

no one cares anymore

More powerful than canon Sidious.

Legends Grievous has similar feats tbh.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Legends Grievous has similar feats tbh.

In lightsabers probably.
Grievous gets crushed by a ship tulak would drag out of orbit though.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Vader would destroy Tulak.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
In lightsabers probably.
Grievous gets crushed by a ship tulak would drag out of orbit though.

I suppose that's possible but Grievous armor withstood a city explosion and can withatand volleys of staefighter laser shots whicg reach kilotons of energy. Mace crushing a ship on Grievous has to factor Maces force prowess and how fast it waa dragged on Grievous. Not saying Hord couldn't defeat Grievous that way, just Grievous durability is somewhat off the charts. That's also not assuming Grievous doesn't just close the distance after adapting Hords style, something that Windu had caution to not duel Grievous after the General adapted closely Vapaad.

Originally posted by The Merchant
I suppose that's possible but Grievous armor withstood a city explosion and can withatand volleys of staefighter laser shots whicg reach kilotons of energy. Mace crushing a ship on Grievous has to factor Maces force prowess and how fast it waa dragged on Grievous. Not saying Hord couldn't defeat Grievous that way, just Grievous durability is somewhat off the charts. That's also not assuming Grievous doesn't just close the distance after adapting Hords style, something that Windu had caution to not duel Grievous after the General adapted closely Vapaad. Grievous usually feeds off intimidation and the fear of his opponents, even with that, odds are he isn't taking out Hord in even a pure saber duel.

Ehhh I dunno about that. Grievous is someone who has the strength to smash through Phrik and Mando Iron, Lightsaber resistant materials and in Phriks case a canister of that stuff survived the Death star blowing up Alderaan. He can also strike up to 20 times a second presumably 5 strikes per arm, and is at least as fast as his Magnaguards that have "near light speed" reactions. Killing masters in the "prime of the Jedi" is also something for him since That makes PT era>Kotor era, which Tulak is said to be above as well.

Grievous has the strength to stalemate Padawans like Ahsoka, he's clearly better than Tulak.

I'm referring to EU Grievous ofc.
.

Let's not pretend that Tulak Hord isn't a canonically superior duelist to Karness Muur, who was evidently a match for Darth Krayt in lightsaber combat despite the interruptions of his host Celeste Morne. Krayt, who was already capable of giving post-ROTS Kenobi a decent duel as a washed up Tusken Raider far before his prime.

But I mean, who uses logic when one needs to push their era bias.