Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Personally, I think Revan could become the strongest person in the Mythos if he became powerful enough, he is the ONLY Jedi, hell, the only PERSON to ever have clarity in the Light Side and Dark Side of the force. So... At Full-Potential... The VERY STRONGEST his limits as a force user can take him, who would win between him and DE Sidious?

Sorry, Sidious showed movie level effects which when reverse-bias-enginered through the Foggy Window of Screw Ockham's Razor explicitly show him to be much much better than Revan, even though Revan's turned Sith Lords into ash and Sidious has done no such thing. Indeed, Sidious is being TK'd over his table by Yoda in my sig.

Let the reaffirmation commence!

Revan was in his prime vs. the Sith Emperor, and he lost. So Sidious takes him down.

How's this. Vitiate is more powerful than all but DE Sidious, so Revan wins unless this is DE Sidious.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
who would win between him and DE Sidious?



Your zeal got the better of you here. It is DE!Sidious.

I just read the thread title, not the description.

Spoken like a true Democrat.

Ouch. That one hurt

You deserved it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan was in his prime vs. the Sith Emperor, and he lost. So Sidious takes him down. ...And you have proof for this... where? Where does it say "Revan reborn was Revan's strongest incarnation."

Revan Reborn was indeed Revan's strongest incarnation, but Yoda's point is stupid.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Yoda's point is stupid.

Not really. It's textbook KMC logic used by plenty of people. X is inferior to Y, who is inferior to Z, ergo X is inferior to Z.

You agree Vitiate is stronger than Revan and that Sidious is stronger than Vitiate. So to what do you object?

I don't subscribe to A>B>C logic.

Originally posted by SJones91109
Revan Reborn was indeed Revan's strongest incarnation/B]
Prove it.

I think it's made quite clear in the novel that the purpose of Revan being "reborn" is precisely that he became as powerful as he had ever been. If you didn't get the hint, read it again.

Better match-up would be FullPotential! Revan vs. DarkSide! Yoda


Palpatine wins by virtue of FullPotenatial! Revan being non-existent.






























Unless.... we assume Reborn! Revan realized his potential. Palpatine still wins./thread

Originally posted by Stigma
Better match-up would be FullPotential! Revan vs. DarkSide! Yoda


Palpatine wins by virtue of FullPotenatial! Revan being non-existent.






























Unless.... we assume Reborn! Revan realized his potential. Palpatine still wins./thread What about post-swtor Revan? It is highly implied that he STILL lives. Not in the new republic, but still.

Originally posted by SJones91109
I don't subscribe to A>B>C logic.

Originally posted by SJones91109
How's this. Vitiate is more powerful than all but DE Sidious, so Revan wins unless this is DE Sidious.

DESids is non-canon. TRY AGAIN, PLEB.

True.

And since AOTC says the Republic has stood for a thousand years, anything before that is non-canon as well.

So this is a fight between two non-canon characters.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
True.

And since AOTC says the Republic has stood for a thousand years, anything before that is non-canon as well.

So this is a fight between two non-canon characters.

Also according to Ush's not-at-all biased canon policy, G-canon is superior in any and all contexts, so since Yoda beat Sidious, Yoda solos everything, including Tulak Hord, Revan, Zonakin, and Exar Kun.

Well, Yoda (in G-canon) says he "failed" to beat Sidious, so that doesn't quite work out.

But if he did beat Sidious, then yes, I'd agree. Revisiting TOTJ last week didn't do any favors for Sadow or Kun, BTW.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, Yoda (in G-canon) says he "failed" to beat Sidious, so that doesn't quite work out.

But if he did beat Sidious, then yes, I'd agree. Revisiting TOTJ last week didn't do any favors for Sadow or Kun, BTW.

1. Your inability to appreciate the raw awesome that is TOTJ is your shortcoming, not ours.

2. Yoda handed Sids his ass in saber usage AND Force usage. Because of the situation, he failed to kill Sidious but this does not preclude the point that he definitely could. Don't make me bring up my scan-for-scan argument again. Chiefly because I can't find it easily.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Your inability to appreciate the raw awesome that is TOTJ is your shortcoming, not ours.

I forgot how much of a witty snarker Kun was. But I mostly meant in terms of Force power; there's actually very little there that could be argued to be beyond the films.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Yoda handed Sids his ass in saber usage AND Force usage. Because of the situation, he failed to kill Sidious but this does not preclude the point that he definitely could. Don't make me bring up my scan-for-scan argument again. Chiefly because I can't find it easily.

"handed Sids his ass" lol

1. Yeah Kun is immensely powerful, just not above the top dogs of the PT.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I forgot how much of a witty snarker Kun was. But I mostly meant in terms of Force power; there's actually very little there that could be argued to be beyond the films.

Did you read The Sith Wars? TOTJ immediately precedes this series, you know. Also, there was a lot of grand-scale effecting Force usage in both, from Battle Meditation to mass illusions, draining of groups and hyponosis, etc. It's hardly at or below film-era.



It could take me the better part of an hour or more to find those scans. But when I do, you will rue this day. Or perhaps tomorrow.

EDIT: My Google Fu is the real deal. BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE.

Scans? As in, comic scans? You do know that in the comic version Sidious beats Yoda within a page, right? And if you mean you're going to scan a novel page, the novel also depicts Sidious as Yoda's clear superior.

The only source where Yoda has the advantage is the script, and in the movie it's practically an even battle, give or take.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Scans? As in, comic scans? You do know that in the comic version Sidious beats Yoda within a page, right? And if you mean you're going to scan a novel page, the novel also depicts Sidious as Yoda's clear superior.

The only source where Yoda has the advantage is the script, and in the movie it's practically an even battle, give or take.

Screen grabs is more appropriate, I agree. Not comic scans. Click the above link. I posted screen grabs of the RotS fight and analyzed it. It goes over many many pages with a lot of BS, but the scans themselves are quite relevant.

If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Newguy is objecting to your phrasing: Yoda handing Sidious his ass implies the battle is completely one sided and effortless.

Which your scans do not even suggest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Newguy is objecting to your phrasing: Yoda handing Sidious his ass implies the battle is completely one sided and effortless.

Which your scans do not even suggest.

Actually, if you keep looking, I posted more screen grabs as did Pyron knight. It got to the point where after the latter posted his, you posted this:

Originally posted by Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.

^ Clearly, the argument was sufficient at the time and you've decided to forget it ever happened.

The first set of scans show that Sids was outmaneuvered in the saber battle and unable to make head-way. When the pod is rising into the Senate chamber, Yoda is pretty much keeping him boxed in the middle. Then, when he is disarmed, Sidious cannot win a Force fight with Yoda; both the TK contest and the lightning struggle go to Yoda. Yoda only 'loses' because he lands at the bottom of the Senate chamber, sans weapon, and cannot find the upper ground again.

On neutral ground without the disadvantage of pods, etc., Yoda would undo Sidious pretty easily. Watch it again.

http://www.mrpgamers.com/MRP/Wtf.gif

If you read my words carefully, nowhere do I concede the argument on its merits. In fact, I go out of my way to state that I do not see what you appear to be seeing. Instead, what I do is succumb to a fallacious appeal to majority.

All you've proven is that I, like you, have said some dumb things. Unlike you, I only do so occasionally. excellent



I remember your argument quite well and I've seen the fight countless times. But the fact remains that Yoda is knocked unconscious, disarmed, and shown to be in extreme pain at one point or another during the duel.

This is antithetical to handing someone his or her ass. That this eludes you is only incontrovertible proof of your Sidious-hate.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Did you read The Sith Wars? TOTJ immediately precedes this series, you know.

Included in the torrent are all the TOTJ comics from The Golden Age of the Sith to Redemption, which includes The Sith War.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, there was a lot of grand-scale effecting Force usage in both, from Battle Meditation to mass illusions, draining of groups and hyponosis, etc. It's hardly at or below film-era.

Battle meditation has its out-of-universe origins with the effect Palpatine's death had on the Imperial fleet at Endor. Subsequent material reveals Palpatine's manipulations were far more vast than what is used by Arca, Odan-Urr, and Nomi.

I'll grant you mass illusions.

The draining of groups was part of a ritual performed in a temple engineered to focus immense Force energies.

As Blax used to sarcastically remark, Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh's duel consisted of hurling bricks. Yoda and Sidious through Senate pods. There's very little to suggest their Force abilities outstripped those of the films, especially without their trinkets.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It could take me the better part of an hour or more to find those scans. But when I do, you will rue this day. Or perhaps tomorrow.

EDIT: My Google Fu is the real deal. BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE.

http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/21d80d1f699b58a2cabec22ab0ad8678/http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg391/yerdua629/unimpressed.jpg

We're majorly off-topic, although I have no room to talk

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://www.mrpgamers.com/MRP/Wtf.gif

If you read my words carefully, nowhere do I concede the argument on its merits. In fact, I go out of my way to state that I do not see what you appear to be seeing. Instead, what I do is succumb to a fallacious appeal to majority.

Actually, it looks to me like a shocking instance of postformal thinking, where you actually reflect on your thoughts and note that you are having issues seeing any other side but your own yet you acknowledge other sides may have merits and thus concede the argument. It's the most mature thing you did that year, probably, besides not require an adult's permission to enter an R-rated movie.

But you can spin it so hard Fox News will sue you for copyright infringement, sure. You do that. Pyron and I gave you scans and Youtube videos and argued them in a detailed and objective fashion. Least you could do is respect that with a rebuttal. A rebuttal, I might add, that you could not muster at the time.



http://lolvirgin.com/wp-content/uploads/Haha-Its-so-funny.jpg



Kind of like how Anakin was after his duel with Obi-Wan. Yeah, Anakin < Obi-Wan. It all makes sense now.



No, it's a thorough examination of valid evidence, which you did not refute except by refusing to accept any facts presented. As Nai said very recently, ignoring facts does not make them go away.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Included in the torrent are all the TOTJ comics from The Golden Age of the Sith to Redemption, which includes The Sith War.



Battle meditation has its out-of-universe origins with the effect Palpatine's death had on the Imperial fleet at Endor. Subsequent material reveals Palpatine's manipulations were far more vast than what is used by Arca, Odan-Urr, and Nomi.

I'll grant you mass illusions.

The draining of groups was part of a ritual performed in a temple engineered to focus immense Force energies.

As Blax used to sarcastically remark, Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh's duel consisted of hurling bricks. Yoda and Sidious through Senate pods. There's very little to suggest their Force abilities outstripped those of the films, especially without their trinkets.

Just that said amulets and spaceships display Force-powered augmentation that is not replicated outside of their era, nor equaled within it. But throwing bricks is all they did, oh and when Kressh got pissed he basically crumpled a statue with a thought:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4909/oldrepublic05229jr.jpg

And those bricks pulled out of the wall and slung at Kressh's head? They were pretty big and didn't even knock him out. Comparatively, Obi-Wan takes a nap if he grazes a bulkhead.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4026/oldrepublic03160sh.jpg

^ That's a temple shot, btw.

Compared to:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1080/000obithrow9wk1wy7jo.gif

Wait, I'm sorry. That was a hand rail.

Also, only one brick hit him; he dodged the others:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9350/proof0jj.jpg

Kressh and Sadow are ridiculously strong physically and in the Force:

Originally posted by Janus Marius


Sith swords have cortosis weaving and are reinforced via Sith magic.

Ludo Kressh broke one with his bare hands.




http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/21d80d1f699b58a2cabec22ab0ad8678/http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg391/yerdua629/unimpressed.jpg

^ This sums up how I feel about your counter-argument. Or whatever that was you just offered.

The brick thing is a retarded argument. Its obviously the same trick Vader does in his ESB fight with Luke. That hardly means pelting someone with small objects is the best Vader can do. He and Sadow are just doing it to gain the upper hand in a conflict.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The brick thing is a retarded argument. Its obviously the same trick Vader does in his ESB fight with Luke. That hardly means pelting someone with small objects is the best Vader can do. He and Sadow are just doing it to gain the upper hand in a conflict.

And the pods argument is hardly representative of Yoda either, to be fair. Yoda caused an orbital missile to slide in Dark Rendezvous and in the same book even earlier, created a TK net against the vacuum of space. In fact, remembering that, Yoda is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, it looks to me like a shocking instance of postformal thinking, where you actually reflect on your thoughts and note that you are having issues seeing any other side but your own yet you acknowledge other sides may have merits and thus concede the argument.

I know, I know. I'm amazingly considerate and impartial.

I now challenge you to rummage through your own post history and find something comparable.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But you can spin it so hard Fox News will sue you for copyright infringement, sure. You do that. Pyron and I gave you scans and Youtube videos and argued them in a detailed and objective fashion. Least you could do is respect that with a rebuttal. A rebuttal, I might add, that you could not muster at the time.

Detailed, yes, but objective?

http://www.crushable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Ricky-Gervais-Hysterical-Laughter.gif

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kind of like how Anakin was after his duel with Obi-Wan. Yeah, Anakin < Obi-Wan. It all makes sense now.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D3p20YNQVFI/TKuhuUh2PaI/AAAAAAAAApo/LTzNXOFesng/s1600/strawman2.jpg

^ Posting this in lieu of an actual response would have been both appropriate and easier.

Kindly explain to me how, if in the process of fighting B, A is knocked unconscious, disarmed, and in extreme pain at one point or another, A somehow "handed his ass."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, it's a thorough examination of valid evidence, which you did not refute except by refusing to accept any facts presented. As Nai said very recently, ignoring facts does not make them go away.

http://cdn.tasteofawesome.com/2012/5/22/tasteofawesome.com_258180_1338261793.jpg

Your "thorough examination of valid evidence" in no way addresses Yoda being knocked unconscious, disarmed, and in extreme pain when fighting Sidious.

Stevie Wonder has a better aptitude for visual examination, son.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Just that said amulets and spaceships display Force-powered augmentation that is not replicated outside of their era, nor equaled within it.

So what? How does their crippling need for gizmos, trinkets, and other Force-enhancing paraphernalia indicate superiority over badasses who manage to be thus without relying on them?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But throwing bricks is all they did, oh and when Kressh got pissed he basically crumpled a statue with a thought:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4909/oldrepublic05229jr.jpg

So what? He crushes a ancient statue.

?v=QwV_BdsxXrI#t=204

Freshly-minted Vader crushes durasteel. The same telekinetic rage that "cannot touch" Sidious per the ROTS novel.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And those bricks pulled out of the wall and slung at Kressh's head? They were pretty big and didn't even knock him out. Comparatively, Obi-Wan takes a nap if he grazes a bulkhead.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4026/oldrepublic03160sh.jpg

^ That's a temple shot, btw.

Compared to:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1080/000obithrow9wk1wy7jo.gif

Wait, I'm sorry. That was a hand rail.

So what? What proof have you that this owes to Force strength and/or mastery and not superior physiology?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, only one brick hit him; he dodged the others:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9350/proof0jj.jpg

Oh, he threw two bricks?

http://www.crushable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Ricky-Gervais-Laughing.gif

No, you're absolutely right. Their divinity is so hilariously obvious; any plebe can handle one brick. But two?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kressh and Sadow are ridiculously strong physically and in the Force:

Their physical strength isn't in question. The "ridiculous" strength in the Force, however, is unattested.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This sums up how I feel about your counter-argument. Or whatever that was you just offered.

http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2012/hautala_gavi/Front%20Page%20Moose.jpg

http://colaholicu.ro/wp-content/uploads/come-at-me-bro-chicken.jpg

I didn't even notice the formatting errors.

http://i.qkme.me/3pg0ok.jpg

That'll teach me to preview the sumbitch next time.

I think enperor vitate was more powerful in combat orientated fears of the force than sidious, furthermore i think vitate had more raw power than sidious.

I believe that reborn revan who had mastery, knowledge and the rare ability to use the light side and the dark side of the force in simultaneous unison makes him more powerful than sidious.

I believe revan had more knowledge of the force than sidious, culmination of both light and dark, as well as possessing more field experience in both utilizing a broad range of force powers light and dark as well as fighting against users who employed light and users who employed dark.

no on the Revan thing, just no. Revan didn't have more knowledge of the force than Sidious. Sidious also studied the light extensively, but he never utilized it. Sidious would defeat Revan.

I differ on opinions, I believe revan had more understanding of the force overall, as he not only studied the light as a master of it and the dark as a sithlord of it, but he also actively utilized the powers of both in unison in constant field experience.

True, but that hardly would make him stronger than say, vitiate, who was a far greater master of the dark side. I completely understand where you're coming from, however utilizing both light and dark doesn't give him a trump card against more powerful opponents.

I by no means meant to convey revan with knowledge and mastery of using the light and dark in unison meant he was stronger than sidious or vitate.

My point was that vitate was truly a powerful dark side user, particularly in psionics.

Sidious also has a broad mastery of the dark side, but a small scope of his knowledge is viable for direct unprepared for combat such as he and revan fighting without prior warning.

Sidious most commonly shows that he uses force lightning, telekenisis, and the force to amp his movement speeds for combat. However i think he is a bad match up for revan because revan has shown to be able to completely absorb/negate force lightning from everyone except vitate's full repeated blast of it.

I just dont see sidious having lightning that is stronger than vitates in direct combat, it doesnt mean sidious is weaker than vitate it just means that in my opinion sidious strengths are spread in other areas differing from vitate.

Furthermore revan also negates the tk that sidious has in the same way he negates the lightning, by allowing the dark and light side to flow through him in unison.

I think its going to come down to a saber dual, which is entirely opinion since we have no way of knowing who is better. From my opinion i would say revan would have the advantage due to him being able to use lightning and tk against sidious, while revan is able to nullify sidious lightning and tk in return. Furthermore revan could yse the light side to constantly regenerate himself, thus he will never yire from fatigue.

I guess it comes down to if sidious could out burst revan fast enough, before revan defeats sidious in a duel of attrition.

Actually, I think Revan is better at combating the likes of Vitiate. Why? because since Revan lacks saber feats, and hasn't really showing too many devastatingly powerful offensive force applications, he wouldn't do too well against someone who outclasses him in saber combat like Sidious. So logically he'd want to fight someone like Vitiate, who isn't a user of lightsabers.

Yep.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And the pods argument is hardly representative of Yoda either, to be fair. Yoda caused an orbital missile to slide in Dark Rendezvous and in the same book even earlier, created a TK net against the vacuum of space. In fact, remembering that, Yoda is ridiculous.

Remembering back on it all, I think the only reason Yoda didn't win is because George Lucas wasn't allowing him to, if he had won (which he could have had he decided to jump back on the ****ing pods and hop back up to Sidious) there would be no Episode 4, 5, or 6.

Yoda was tired. Sids wasn't. If yoda tried to continue the fight, he woulda lost.

^
No. It was one of Stover's novel BS.

And Revan wasn't an equal enemy to Vitiate. Sidious, who is "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" would beat him even harder.

DE Sidious > ROTS Sidious > Vitiate > Revan

I rank Revan only slightly below the likes of RotS Sidious, Vitiate, and RoT Bane. So Revan loses this one on a very close fight, imo.

See, I put Revan at Dooku level. Where instead of being really good at lightsabers and pretty good with TK and lightning, Revans pretty good with lightsabers and really good with TK and Force defenses.

I see his fight with Vitiate as comparable to Dooku's fight with Yoda. Dooku was able to hang with Yoda in a lightsaber fight for a while but was ultimately outmatched. Revan was able to hang with Vitiate in a Force duel but was ultimately outmatched.

Originally posted by Nephthys
See, I put Revan at Dooku level. Where instead of being really good at lightsabers and pretty good with TK and lightning, Revans pretty good with lightsabers and really good with TK and Force defenses.

I see his fight with Vitiate as comparable to Dooku's fight with Yoda. Dooku was able to hang with Yoda in a lightsaber fight for a while but was ultimately outmatched. Revan was able to hang with Vitiate in a Force duel but was ultimately outmatched.



I'd probably put Revan somewhere between Yoda/Sidious and Dooku/Mace.

Which is, let's be honest, really good. If you rank him somewhere between those guys , Revan is definitely amongst the most powerful Jedi in the mythos. I know some people hate his Gary Stu-esque character and he's sometimes underestimated because of this, but in truth he's very impressive.

So is it sort of like this?

Tier 1 (in no particular order)
Sidious
Yoda
Vitate
Nihilus

Tier 1.5
Revan

Tier 2
Windu
Dooku

My question is than this, where does Marka Ragnos, Caedus, Luke, Bane, Darth Nox, Exar Kun all fit into?

Tier 1 (in no particular order)
Sidious
Yoda
Vitate
Nihilus
Luke
Bane
Tulak Hord
Exar Kun

Tier 1.5
Revan
Vader
Nox
Barsen'thor
Malgus
Caedus

Tier 2
Revan
Windu
Dooku
Emperor's Wrath


Something like that IN MY OPINION.

^ Neph, you've got Revan in tier 1,5 AND in tier 2 WTF?


Originally posted by Board Walker
So is it sort of like this?

Tier 1 (in no particular order)
Sidious
Yoda
Vitate
Nihilus

Tier 1.5
Revan

Tier 2
Windu
Dooku

My question is than this, where does Marka Ragnos, Caedus, Luke, Bane, Darth Nox, Exar Kun all fit into?
I would put all of these guys in tier 1,5, except for Luke who is above even Yoda/Sidious, and perhaps place Bane in tier 1 if this is RoT Bane.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Remembering back on it all, I think the only reason Yoda didn't win is because George Lucas wasn't allowing him to, if he had won (which he could have had he decided to jump back on the ****ing pods and hop back up to Sidious) there would be no Episode 4, 5, or 6.

A really good What-If scenario would involve a pyrrhic victory on behalf of Yoda, who dies, and Anakin defeats Obi-Wan but the latter escapes. Granted, it destroys the OT but it would set up for a pretty awesome The Duellists-style drawn out battle with the former master and apprentice gathering allies and trying to kill each other and they both become more and more wicked as time goes on, until Luke comes to adulthood and redeems both.

Originally posted by Stigma
^ Neph, you've got Revan in tier 1,5 AND in tier 2 WTF?

I meant to move him down to tier 2.

Well, I don't think, that Revan is above Mace or Dooku. Those two, fought extremely well against Yoda and Sidious.

Sidious and Yoda are clearly in the top of tier 1. Vitiate is below them in the same tier. He's also below Plagueis.

Difference between Revan and Vitiate was bigger, the difference between Yoda and Dooku or Mace and Sidious.

So, IMO it's more like:

Tier 1:
Sidious / Yoda
Plagueis
Vitiate

Tier 2:
Dooku / Windu / Anakin (depend of his mental state: he can be above or below them)
Vader / Revan / Bane

Ok, mine is:

Tier 1:
Luke
Sidious
Yoda
HoT
Vitiate
Bane
Exar Kun
Tulak Hord

Tier 1.5:
RotS Anakin
Windu
Barsen'thor
Revan
Nox
Malgus

Tier 2:
Vader
Dooku
Caedus
Plagueis
Traya


I'm unsure whether to include Wrath 2.0 in Tier 2 and I refuse to include Nihilus. The only reason he'd be there is due to his mother****ing drain.

Well and the gargantuan power and top-tier TK.

Imo he's never demonstrated top tier TK. It was said he was holding the Ravager together on pure willpower, but after he died the ship was still holding together... Unless you're referring to something else he's demonstrated?

Er, he ripped the Ravager off the surface of Malachor and into orbit. And possibly more than that, a fleet is also mentioned.

As for it staying together, the ship appears to have been motionless, so obviously it wouldn't drift apart in space without anything pushing it apart.

Oh, yeah. Forgot about that. But still, Starkiller pulled a Star Destroyer down with his TK. Do you consider him tier 1? Or do you consider Nihilus tier 1 because of his TK and his drain?

I might be biased, but I just hate him as a character.

Starkiller didn't do that, he merely redirected a Star Destroyer by moving it slightly as it was falling. If he had actually pulled a capital ship out of the sky, like Tulak Hord, I would put him in tier one. Theres also the facts that he was portrayed as near equal to Vader to consider and that TFU is an exaggerated material (which I will not be discussing further). So no I don't think he's tier 1. Tier 1.5 (really this should just be tier 2 blargh), a bit above Vader? Yes.

And yeah Nihilus is easily a top tier being imo. Some of the best TK in the mythos and a nigh-unblockable planet killing attack.

I don't remember the exact details of Starkiller and the Star Destroyer. Is it also said in the novel that he only moved it slightly? Even if he only did move it slightly, it's still very impressive that he managed to actually move a starship of that magnitude in mid-air.

I think it's fair to say his TK is extremely powerful, as well.

Nah, Tier 1.5 does make sense. Individuals who have demonstrated skills superior or equal to those like Dooku or Caedus, but are debatably better than them.

You're probably right about Nihilus. I admit I'm biased and just plainly dislike his character a lot.

I don't recall what it actually says and slightly is an ambiguous phrase I was using to be vague. I think he moves it so its pointing down a bit more, so its slowed down on impact and doesn't slide so much. Yeah its very impressive, but as I said TFU is exaggerated so whatever.

It is. But he still isn't tier 1.

Then why not just make them tier 2 and make Dooku and Caedus tier 3?

Nihilus is awesome, so you shut yo mouth boy!

Hmmm. I'm gonna find that part in the novel and read it again, just to see what actually happened.

Yeah, maybe tier 2.

Fair point.

Nihilus suckz ballz.

Nihilus really does have the best tk feat in the mythos, ripping the ravager and an entire star fleet from the surface of a world, into orbit and then moving the entire fleet with his tk.

The star fleet is mentioned in the loading screen btw, also nihilus was providing an atmosphere for his followers with his force powers.

When nihilus died there was no reason for the ship to fall apart, it was in space with no other forces to pull it apart.

Originally posted by SJones91109
I don't subscribe to A>B>C logic.


It's not ABC logic. Sidious is the grossly superior combatant to Vitiate. Vitiate may be just as powerful as Sidious in terms of Force mastery in power, but you throw in mastery of the seven forms of lightsaber combat and you have Sidious way above Vitiate in terms of raw combat.

Revan is outmatched in speed, force, and raw saber mastery. How the **** can he overcome ROTS Sidious? Let alone DE Sidious?

Revan is underrated as hell because of his lack of feats. He's in all likelihood not that far below Vitiate. There is no evidence Revan would have gotten stronger from his Revan novel incarnation. He sure as hell isn't stronger after being tortured for 300 years. I'll search for the passage, but I am fairly certain that when Revan's memory returns when he puts his mask on he's at max power. I don't have to prove he was at his peak you have to prove he would have gotten stronger.

I put him at about Dooku and Mace's level, which is reinforced by Karpyshyn's statement that Vader~Revan~Bane. But in a battledome fight I can't place Revan above Dooku in a fight based on personal intuition alone.

Also these hypothetical threads are stupid, as they play on the OPs personal fantasy of Revan's powerlevel in the mythos and is intended to be a gigantic circle jerk of what Revan "could have been".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, he ripped the Ravager off the surface of Malachor and into orbit. And possibly more than that, a fleet is also mentioned.

As for it staying together, the ship appears to have been motionless, so obviously it wouldn't drift apart in space without anything pushing it apart.

Keep in mind that small particles of dust, rock or ice in space can be moving at thousands of km/s, especially in orbit above a space-age planet with tons of debris from mass destruction of an armada. The fact that the ship doesn't become undone is pretty impressive, considering this. Unless he used the Force to activate its shields as he dragged it out of the gravity well, in which case, whatev.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, he ripped the Ravager off the surface of Malachor and into orbit. And possibly more than that, a fleet is also mentioned.

As for it staying together, the ship appears to have been motionless, so obviously it wouldn't drift apart in space without anything pushing it apart.

I thought he ripped it from orbit of Malachor V? If he ripped it from the surface that's even more ridiculous.

"Exar Kun would raise the ship from the planet and put it into service, similar to the way Darth Nihilus raised the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V."

Nah, it was from the surface. How would he get to it if it was in orbit? Fly?

Also, Moosey, do you know how Kun got Naga Sadows ship off of Yavin after he found it? Cuz this implies he did it Nihilus style.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's not ABC logic. Sidious is the grossly superior combatant to Vitiate.

Revan is outmatched in speed, force, and raw saber mastery. How the **** can he overcome ROTS Sidious? Let alone DE Sidious?

I put him at about Dooku and Mace's level, which is reinforced by Karpyshyn's statement that Vader~Revan~Bane. But in a battledome fight I can't place Revan above Dooku in a fight based on personal intuition alone.


Good work, MY

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan is underrated as hell because of his lack of feats. He's in all likelihood not that far below Vitiate. There is no evidence Revan would have gotten stronger from his Revan novel incarnation. He sure as hell isn't stronger after being tortured for 300 years. I'll search for the passage, but I am fairly certain that when Revan's memory returns when he puts his mask on he's at max power. I don't have to prove he was at his peak you have to prove he would have gotten stronger.


I wouldn't say, that he's underrated. Some guys from his era are just overrated. Nihilus for example. Or Exile. She was one or two leagues below Revan, and I would say, that she was arround Shaak Ti's level, or below.
Revan, Malak - they are great, becasue their powers aren't exaggerated.
And - as I remeber - Kreia considered Revan as her greatest student. I don't think, that Nihilus or Sion would be able to defeat him.

The Exile wasn't overrated. The Exile is Kreia's greatest student. In the games, she is Revan's superior as per Kreia's admission. And if not, at least close.

Its just that she was highly underrated in Revan due to Karpyshan being biased towards Revan and having never bothered to play Kotor II.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's not ABC logic. Sidious is the grossly superior combatant to Vitiate. Vitiate may be just as powerful as Sidious in terms of Force mastery in power, but you throw in mastery of the seven forms of lightsaber combat and you have Sidious way above Vitiate in terms of raw combat.

Revan is outmatched in speed, force, and raw saber mastery. How the **** can he overcome ROTS Sidious? Let alone DE Sidious?

Revan is underrated as hell because of his lack of feats. He's in all likelihood not that far below Vitiate. There is no evidence Revan would have gotten stronger from his Revan novel incarnation. He sure as hell isn't stronger after being tortured for 300 years. I'll search for the passage, but I am fairly certain that when Revan's memory returns when he puts his mask on he's at max power. I don't have to prove he was at his peak you have to prove he would have gotten stronger.

I put him at about Dooku and Mace's level, which is reinforced by Karpyshyn's statement that Vader~Revan~Bane. But in a battledome fight I can't place Revan above Dooku in a fight based on personal intuition alone.

Also these hypothetical threads are stupid, as they play on the OPs personal fantasy of Revan's powerlevel in the mythos and is intended to be a gigantic circle jerk of what Revan "could have been".

The only reason I made this post in the first place was the only person... I repeat, THE ONLY PERSON who had found clarity in the light and dark sides of the force in the entire SW Mythos, EU and Movies included, no other person in the History of the Star Wars Universe has found clarity in the force such as Revan, it is a hardened and proven fact. Revan has the POTENTIAL... to be just as powerful as Sidious on either sides of the force if he works his whole life doing non-stop training on BOTH sides of the force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile wasn't overrated. The Exile is Kreia's greatest student. In the games, she is Revan's superior as per Kreia's admission. And if not, at least close.

Its just that she was highly underrated in Revan due to Karpyshan being biased towards Revan and having never bothered to play Kotor II.

Karpyshan's book was canon, as shown in TOR, Revan is more powerful than Meetra in every aspect, there is NO denying or arguing with that. (Though she should've still been able to take Nyriss, alone even, and with Scourge she should've been able to Curbstomp her.)

I didn't deny or argue that. I disagreed that she is overrated and thats all.

And even though Revan is canon, so is Kotor II, in which she performs a lot of high-end shit.

Yeah, Drew completely screwed up the Exile for two possible reasons:

a) They told him to stay away from KOTOR II as much as possible

or,

b) He didn't ****ing play KOTOR II or even bother to read about Meetra's feats in the game

Either one sucks. She had much potential.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Exar Kun would raise the ship from the planet and put it into service, similar to the way Darth Nihilus raised the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V."

Nah, it was from the surface. How would he get to it if it was in orbit? Fly?

Also, Moosey, do you know how Kun got Naga Sadows ship off of Yavin after he found it? Cuz this implies he did it Nihilus style.

It's possible. I didn't read the panels closely when I got my recent scans, but I can provide direct context tonight hopefully.

Awesome. He probably didn't, but its still a neat thought.

Kun probably has the fastest rise of peerless DLotS in the entire mythos, really. Gets the amulet and goes from wayward neophyte to Force titan and badass. Then reigns for six months before it's over.

Wasn't he already Vodo's best student ever? Who kicked his ass in combat. He wasn't just a neophyte.

True, but he wasn't a Force titan either at that point. He's more like AotC Anakin; raw, full of anger, and unrefined. The amulet seems to make his Force powers exponentially better. This makes me wonder how much the ancient Sith were themselves boosted.

I don't think Revan could beat Sidious.
I agree with the person that maps him to Dooku's level (or just a tad lower).
This still means he's a very impressive character, just not Sidious level.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Actually, I think Revan is better at combating the likes of Vitiate. Why? because since Revan lacks saber feats, and hasn't really showing too many devastatingly powerful offensive force applications, he wouldn't do too well against someone who outclasses him in saber combat like Sidious. So logically he'd want to fight someone like Vitiate, who isn't a user of lightsabers.
Really?

You forgot how easily he outdueled an Imperial Guard individual. Force Mastery makes lot of difference even in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's not ABC logic. Sidious is the grossly superior combatant to Vitiate.
You are sadly mistaken. Sith Sorcerers are likely the most dangerous and efficient combatants among the Sith. Vitiate's history should teach you something.

It doesn't surprises me that Sidious chose to become a Sith Sorcerer to further hone his talents in the dark side.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan is outmatched in speed, force, and raw saber mastery. How the **** can he overcome ROTS Sidious? Let alone DE Sidious?
This is a speculation.

The magnitude of raw power that Revan may have expended on dispatching Nyriss is seriously underestimated. The latter is a dark side prodigy who overwhelmed not one but two heavyweights of the mythos (among these is one who have fought Nihilus, Traya and Sion). Not to forget that Revan had sufficient energy and speed to hang with 4 of the galaxy's most dangerous combatants for a while even after enduring 300 years of torture of epic proportions. To give you an idea of how potent this Imperial Strike Team was: Revan have history of fighting and defeating armies of Sith and Mandalorians.

I wonder if Revan had actually exceeded his biological limitations with his sheer master of the Force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan is underrated as hell because of his lack of feats. He's in all likelihood not that far below Vitiate. There is no evidence Revan would have gotten stronger from his Revan novel incarnation. He sure as hell isn't stronger after being tortured for 300 years. I'll search for the passage, but I am fairly certain that when Revan's memory returns when he puts his mask on he's at max power. I don't have to prove he was at his peak you have to prove he would have gotten stronger.
You have a point here.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I put him at about Dooku and Mace's level, which is reinforced by Karpyshyn's statement that Vader~Revan~Bane. But in a battledome fight I can't place Revan above Dooku in a fight based on personal intuition alone.
Revan is evidently stronger and superior Force-user in comparison to all of these individuals (Comfortably bended Nyriss's incredibly potent dark side power; send the mighty Vitiate packing across the gigantic hall; crashed an entire Sith army stationed on Star Forge). Revan is actually full of surprises; when an Imperial Strike Team came close to striking him down (This Strike Team had previously handled chunks of Asteroids falling around them, FLS bombardment and Revan's telepathic assaults in general without significant issues), he formed a protective bubble around himself, rendering himself virtually immune to all kinds of attacks and than possibly teleported himself to safety somewhere. Mind you, Bioware authors have hinted that they left the door open for Revan's return.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also these hypothetical threads are stupid, as they play on the OPs personal fantasy of Revan's powerlevel in the mythos and is intended to be a gigantic circle jerk of what Revan "could have been".
I agree that hypothetical threads are not fun.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Killing them in the tens of thousands"

There were under a hundred Jedi left at the Conclave at Katarr, this is stated multiple times in KOTOR II.
That was just one event. Every member of Sith Triumvirate was involved in purging of the Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That was just one event. Every member of Sith Triumvirate was involved in purging of the Jedi.

Most of the Jedi died during the Jedi Civil War. More were hunted slowly, but I highly doubt the Sith Triumvirate was able to kill 10s of thousands with the Republic still being there.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Killing them in the tens of thousands"

There were under a hundred Jedi left at the Conclave at Katarr, this is stated multiple times in KOTOR II.



Yep, it's mentioned that after the Jedi Civil War only around a hundred Jedi are left alive and most of them are killed at Katarr. I'll see if I can find the source quick.

Edit:

Here we go.

"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."
―Kreia

"Only a handful of us remained after the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred in number. Then even that hundred began to disappear, in places where the Force seemed blind. The only pattern we determined that when Jedi gathered, they were seen no more. At the last Jedi conclave on Katarr, the entire planet was wiped out. An entire race, destroyed… because the Jedi chose to gather there. It was only then that we realized that we were facing something far more powerful than we knew how to fight."
―Zez-Kai Ell

Biggest problem though is the Exile never feeling a void in the force... lol

Also gotta love how Drew keeps referring to Traya's followers as "rogue Jedi" rather than "Sith"....

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Obsidian didn't do its homework either when it developed KoTOR II.

What mistakes did they make?

If they did, it was because they were rushed in making the game. They thought they had a lot more development time than it turned out they did. Even so, Avellone did a fine job and unlike Drew, he actually bothered to play the previous ****ing game.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Most of the Jedi died during the Jedi Civil War. More were hunted slowly, but I highly doubt the Sith Triumvirate was able to kill 10s of thousands with the Republic still being there.
Jedi Order recovered to some extent after the end of Jedi Civil War. This is apparent from revelations in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan.

Sith Triumvirate struck some years after Jedi Civil War and successfully purged it.

Originally posted by ares834


Yep, it's mentioned that after the Jedi Civil War only around a hundred Jedi are left alive and most of them are killed at Katarr. I'll see if I can find the source quick.

Edit:

Here we go.

"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."
―Kreia

"Only a handful of us remained after the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred in number. Then even that hundred began to disappear, in places where the Force seemed blind. The only pattern we determined that when Jedi gathered, they were seen no more. At the last Jedi conclave on Katarr, the entire planet was wiped out. An entire race, destroyed… because the Jedi chose to gather there. It was only then that we realized that we were facing something far more powerful than we knew how to fight."
―Zez-Kai Ell

Biggest problem though is the Exile never feeling a void in the force... lol

Also gotta love how Drew keeps referring to Traya's followers as "rogue Jedi" rather than "Sith"....
See above

Originally posted by ares834
What mistakes did they make?
Haven't you check this link?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-31-fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi Order recovered to some extent after the end of Jedi Civil War. This is apparent from revelations in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan.

Sith Triumvirate struck some years after Jedi Civil War and successfully purged it.

ugh3

You mean, the book Karpyshan wrote? You're using the book that made the mistake to justify the mistake itself. Thats silly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi Order recovered to some extent after the end of Jedi Civil War. This is apparent from revelations in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan.

Sith Triumvirate struck some years after Jedi Civil War and successfully purged it.

So they went from 100 Jedi to 10000 Jedi in a very short time... lol.

Plus it contradicts this:

"Only a handful of us remained after the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred in number. Then even that hundred began to disappear, in places where the Force seemed blind."


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Haven't you check this link?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-31-fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side

Did you bother reading your own link?

After finally getting to play KotOR they completely redid their own story.

"When Chris Avellone finally played Knights of the Old Republic he realised how terrible and out of kilter with BioWare's his story had been, and flung it into the bin. He also realised something else: this was going to be one hard act to follow."

Is Legend really going to try and argue that the Jedi jumped from 100 Jedi to 10,000 and then back down to 100 in a span of 2 years....What...the actual fvck

Tens of thousands actually.

Really, Karpyshyn screwed up Meetra so badly it's not even funny.

I like how her battle precog is pretty much non-existent.

Originally posted by Petrus
It just really doesn't seem like Drew even played KotoR II.

He didn't.