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Arrax

Some Sith. I think he killed some people? He's not really important, but Sith kills are Sith kills. Also he has tons of Sith and Imperial forces with him, so the newly minted Barsen'thor, still wreaked a lot of opposition.

Darth Lachris

_jVgsjTyLEI

26.10.

The apprentice of Darth Marr, which is a big enough name to assume a significant degree of power. Governor of Balmorra. Notable as the only time the Barsen'thor blocks lightning.

Kills a Sith occupying force on Quesh.

The Sith occupy a building on Quesh and the Barsen'thor takes them out, killing their leader, Kadon Vol.

Captain Valon

Notable, I suppose. A White Maw warrior who gained possession of an incredible suit of armor that healed any wound and returned him back to life even after the Consular killed him. Again, this was contrived, since the Consular uses a ****ing lightsaber so I highly doubt the armor would still be working after she's done with him but whatever.

Blaesus and Lord Kyrus

A Child of the Emperor, Blaesus is immensely powerful as he was imprinted at birth with a portion of Vitiates own godlike power. Before fighting him, the Barsen'thor must defeat Sith Lord Kyrus. These two had previously fought through the defenses of and captured the Sarkhai king and queen, shown to have even damaged blast doors in their wake. Blaesus was noted to have seemed invincible in battle.

Bashed through a Rakatan Vault Door

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27.25. Those vault doors are said to be impenetrable in the Belsavis section of SWTORE and Gelan expresses incredulity that the Barsen'thor was powerful enough to shatter it. Another near top tier TK feat for the Barsen'thor.

Defeated Commander Gelan

Another Child of the Emperor. Fought right after performing the above feat. The Children are all incredibly powerful beings portrayed as good fights for the Barsen'thor, one even shown to smack her around a bit later on. Afterwards the Barsen'thor shows good healing skills, reviving Hallow Voice. Personally I think the Barsen'thor is obviously canonically a Jedi Sage, seeing as they constantly display TK and healing abilities rather than stealth ones.

Stark

Once a powerful and mighty Sith Lord, until the First Son found out he'd been investigating the Children and ****ed him up. Now insane.

Lord Shendon

Another Sith Lord victory.

Sophia Farash

And another Child. These get more interesting soon. Fought with two Sith apprentices.

Aelan Kalder

_3S44-7cbpQ

18.25

Now we get into the good ones. This guy defeated his Jedi friend in a single attack then single handedly took over a Guardian Hold, a near impenetrable fortress stoked with weapons, droids and elite troops. The Barsen'thor must fight through the now Imperial held fortress to get to him and defeats him. Notable because he's shown to partially resist the Barsen'thor's TK attack and them smack her backwards a good dozen meters with lightning. This is a good indication of the Childrens power. You could argue that he could just be more powerful than his brothers and sisters, but this is illogical. Aelan is not a Force sensitive, all his power comes from the portion of power the Emperor embedded in him as a child. And it is logical to say that all the Children were given similar or identical portions of power. Other than the First Son who is supreme among the Children and was a Jedi Master to boot, so maybe he just has more power than the others on top of his Vitiate portion.

Daresha Bakarn

In the same video as the one above, at 30.10.

Syo's sister. Another Child of the Emperor. Again the Barsen'thor dodges the lightning rather than block it. Perhaps she learned from the last fight.

Counciller Saiak

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Guess what, another Child of the Emperor. Whats that, six now? Plus 2 more and Syo makes nine....

Anyway, kills a dude with a nasty sounding lightning at 2.05. Shrugs off the Barsen'thor mental suggestion, again indicating no huge advantage to the Jedi Master.

Kills two Children at once.

At 5.10 + the Barsen'thor fights and kills two Children who are guarding the First Son. These are mentioned In SWTORE so no, they are not just gameplay enemies.

The First Son.

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The First Son is supreme among the Emperor's Children. Blaesus says that he cannot even comprehend the power he wields. This is backed up by the fight he gives the Barsen'thor and the fact that he's able to shield hundreds of Children galaxy-wide from detection.

7.15, the Barsen'thor shrugs off a telepathic assault from the First Son. Then at 10.30 the Barsen'thor appears to use the Force to overpower the First Son's will in order to give Syo back his mind. This is backed up later when the Council credits her with overcoming his will so I guess that is what she's doing. At 7.25 the battle begins. At 7.40 the Barsen'thor stuns him with a Force Wave. He displays invisibility, good speed running around so fast and good lightning and TK.

Also the First Son has an attack called 'collapse cavern' where he starts pulling shit down from the ceiling. Not sure about its canonicity but you know. There is also an attack called Will of Syo which heals the Barsen'thor. Again, notable but unsure of whether its canon.

Darkside ending:

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
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6:52, the Consular holds back Syo's saber with her force powers, then curbstomps him ala force push.


Theres also proof that the Emperor's Children are really powerful. Master Jaeden says that after losing the First Sons protection they can sense the immense power of the Emperor's children "Their darkness screams at use."


God, this one was even longer.

Hopefully the Nox one won't be as time consuming. This took like 3 hours.

3 hours of awesomeness

nice thread.

Thanks.

Its mostly so people like Tempest can just read it and absorb the info. Not much new of note is in here, all stuff I've already said. Its also mainly Jedi Master and Children fights. The HoT thread had more variety and people with actual feats and flavor backing them up.

But here it is. If people want to know what the Barsen'thor can do, just look here. Extremely powerful Force attacks and defenses and stellar feats under her belt.

Awesome.

This is awesome, Neph. Kudos for your hard work! This place really needs this kind of thing to prevent the hand-waving and status quo acceptance that's all-to-common.

Very nice.

So where do people think the Barsen'thor should go in terms of power?

I still think about Darth Vader level.

Dooku level.

She'd beat Dooku fairly solidly imo.

I certainly don't see Dooku fighting through hordes of Republic troops, tanking an explosion that obliterated a blast door to the face and beat a powerful Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters. All while weakened.

You said ''in terms of power''.

I take that as an indication of power.

Well, maybe more powerful in general than Dooku, but not combat-applicable power.

That seems pretty combat-applicable to me.

Yeah, I mean, tanking explosions is gonna help her in a fight, right?

Yes? If she can defend herself against an explosion that powerful with her Force defenses, it will be extremely difficult for a Force user to get past her defenses unless they can attack with more power than an explosion that demolished a blast door.

And the fact that she defeated a Sith Lord drawing the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters indicates enormous power. Especially since she did is weakened and after fighting through a capital ship and tanking the above explosion.

The radius of the explosion was very little. Is there any proof that Barsen'thor survived thanks to her prodigious Force powers?

That would be skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The radius of the explosion was very little. Is there any proof that Barsen'thor survived thanks to her prodigious Force powers?

That would be skill.

The explosion destroyed a blast door, that radius was not small. How else would she survive? Shes not wearing armor.

No, not really. Skill can take you far, but power is an important aspect. I highly doubt you can defeat a Sith drawing on that man Jedi through just skill if you don't have the power to resist his attacks and damage him with the Force. Remember, the Consular's main source of offense is their Force powers. To beat another Force user, you need to overpower their defenses. And if the Consular was drastically weaker than him he would just crush her defenses and no skill could save her. And it isn't as if she has a bunch of gadgets to help her like the Bounty Hunter does. She has the Force and a lightsaber.

Small radius, bro. That the door exploded on impact is a game mechanic. Nothing else was sufficiently damaged.

Who is that behind her by the way?

Clearly, but that's not what I meant.

Still not seeing anything putting her above Dooku's level let alone ''solidly'' above.

How do you know the "small radius" isn't the game mechanic? That the ground and surrounding area wasn't damaged clearly is. Either way, the Consular would be close enough to the barrels to be hit with the explosion since she'd be in lightsaber range. It was still large enough to tear at least a hole large enough to get through in the blast door. Though I still think it destroyed much of the door. There are models for blast doors that have been merely damaged or that have holes in them elsewhere in the game. If the developers meant for the door to be minimally damaged, they would have used one of those. Instead they depicted the door as being completely gone.

Tharen Cedrax, a companion. He's not important. He's just an inventor so he'd have no real effect on battle outside of gameplay.

Ok.

What about smashing through that huge blast door with one hand? And the Consular had already used the Shielding technique once at that point and its near the start of the game, so its not close to her at her peak. Or throwing that huge chunk of metal, same deal? Both are solidly above anything Dooku has done.

1. Tharen wasn't even damaged by the explosion and, as far as I understand, he's not a Force user.

2. As for the door, that more telekinetic power is neccesary to blast through it than levitating multiple obelisks is questionable, not to mention she's clearly channeling her power the instant before.

3. The metal throw is impressive, but two things:

a) I thin school bus-size is a little overstatement.

b) Either you're math if off or google is giving me wrong answers, but the average school bus-weight is 11-14 tons, not hundreds. lolwut

1. Tharen doesn't need to be standing right next to her. He isn't chained to her hip. Plus if he is standing right behind her, presumably her shield would protect him from the explosion as well.

2. She doesn't channel her power any longer than Dooku does when he lifts those obelisks. And I don't agree that its questionable. Lifting stone is a lot easier than bending steel.

3.

a) Compare the size of the object at 4.30 to this:

http://hackedgadgets.com/wp-content/_school_bus_van.JPG

Pay attention to the size of the two objects compared to the size of the person or people next to it. They seem to be similar in height, both about half again as tall at those next to them and the bus is perhaps a little longer.

b) School buses are made to be light weight and are hollow. Its just a metal frame on top of wheels and an engine with seats inside. That chunk of metal the Consular throws is just that: A solid chunk of metal. Its incredibly dense and compact. This is why cars can be crushed into small cubes. They are not dense, and despite their size, their actual weight is not that much.

Heres a hundred ton boulder:

http://art-for-a-change.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/vallen_levitated_mass.jpg

Steel is about 3 times denser and heavier than stone. So judging just from the chunk the Consular throws in relation to that you can probably get a good idea of just how much the chunk would have weighed.

400 ton boulder:

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site207/2012/0103/20120103_091430_SV04-ROCk-web.jpg

Heres a hundred tons of steel:

http://blog.steelfromchina.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/100-Tons-of-Galvanized-Angle-Iron-to-Australia.jpg

People tend to underestimate weight, but things are really heavy when you get into stone and steel, which are very dense, if they're as much as the size of a car or so.

If you want though, I can give this to some people for some quick math and they'll give a rough estimate of the chunk of metals weight.

Lol

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma4gmnOQAI1rgohyno1_500.gif

Too tired to respond to any of this right now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Tharen doesn't need to be standing right next to her. He isn't chained to her hip. Plus if he is standing right behind her, presumably her shield would protect him from the explosion as well.
Then it's gameplay which is non-canon.

But using the explosion of the blast door as a measure of Barsen'thor defending herself with the Force (no proof) isn't concludeable when nearby non-Force sensitives resist it when close to it.

Yes it is. Your companion standing so close to you is just a gameplay mechanic. I'm sure outside of gameplay he's independent enough to stand 10 feet back and choose his own movements. He just follows you around so close cuz he's your companion and needs to be close so you know where he is.

Tharen or Qyzen (the other companion you have at this point) don't even canonically accompany you on that mission. They could both be back on the ship making me some new shoes. Hell, you could bring C3PO in a neck-brace on that mission if you want! Or you could just bring no companion.

Also I asked my maths chums over in the Foreign Cinema forum (really the All-versus forum) and the guestimation is currently at about 250 tons for the metal chunk.

Not bad.

LOL

Yes, cry! Cry at the beatings I give you! It burns so good doesn't it!? DOESN'T IT B*TCH!??/ SLAP MY ASS! DO IT!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Man, you're like, a machonist or whatever it's called.

Creepy.

POOP IN MY MOUTH AND CALL ME A BABY! I DEMAND TO BE HUMILIATED AND DOMINATED, FOOL!

Your demands are met every day, bro.

O RLY? I am swishing mah tongue around mah mouth and I am detecting a noticeable lack of shit in here.

You have failed me.

I meant the second demand, that you want to get humiliated and dominated.

They have indeed been met. I am pleased.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So where do people think the Barsen'thor should go in terms of power?

I still think about Darth Vader level.
Assume (young) Yoda with Force Mastery of 900 years and you get Bersen'thor.

Also, Darth Vader have nothing on Bersen'thor. The only aspect in which the former may hold a candle to the latter is in the use of TK. However, Bersen'thor is much more effective Force-user over-all. She may just break Darth Vader with her telepathic abilities alone.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku level.
Seriously?

Vivicar and First Son are likely above Dooku and Bersen'thor defeated both.

Prove they are above Dooku.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove they are above Dooku.
Haven't you learned anything from all the information revealed till date?

Dooku no longer seems to be a big deal in the light of TOR era related updates.

Both Vivicar and First Son were among the standouts in an era which evidently witnessed greatest concentration of powerful Force-users in a single era throughout galactic history. These individuals have been canonically acknowledged as wielding terrifying power and absolute masters of the Force. Bersen'thor managed to undermine them with her exceptional mastery of the Force which trumps that of Dooku's by a long shot. Vivicar was so powerful that he corrupted many individuals (including many Jedi Masters) on galactic scale with his dark side abilities and could even draw on their combined might to augment his own. He would have become virtually invincible, if not stopped on time. First Son was another remarkably powerful individual who controlled hundreds of Force-users on galactic scale with his own power. It is believed that he was more then a match for a Dark Council member (individuals who have often been noted to be superior to Dooku).

Force Mastery is not just about impressive telekinetic abilities that you see Dooku performing; it goes much beyond telekinetic applications. In-fact, almost every notable individual in SWTOR era matches or exceeds Dooku's telekinetic prowess. To give you an idea, Bersen'thor managed to overcome Vivicar's influence with a special shielding technique that only she learned and mastered among all the Jedi in the galaxy, otherwise, Vivicar would have broken and corrupted her as well. Put Dooku in her shoes and he would have fallen to Vivicar without aid of this special shielding technique.

So try to comprehend the larger picture here. You do not just evaluate power of a character by flashy depictions of telekinesis. Their are many ways to determine power of a character; the most powerful ones can influence/manipulate their surroundings in ways that majority cannot.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Typical reaction of a fanboy when given some reality check.

Concession accepted.

Er, I would agree with Intrepid. Not much of what you said made sense to me or seemed particularly valid as a comparison. I would agree with you though that both are above Dooku though.

Vivicar was an enormously powerful Sith in his own right, with some powerful abilities and is stated to be 'terrifyingly powerful'. And he was amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters, all of which adds up to higher than Dooku imo.

The First Son is also a Force Titan, far above the already powerful Emperors Children and matches up well to the Barsen'thor. I'd put him about on par with the latter, with her beating him because Syo was helping.

Vivicar having a nice hyperbole statement on his side and being augmented by other Sith is above Dooku?

He was amped by Jedi Masters. Read my post on him in the respect thread. He was clearly a very powerful Sith Lord in his own right, able to infect hundreds of Jei around the galaxy with his power. Pro tip: Whenever someone can affect people across the galaxy with their Force powers, they're probably a big deal. He was also able to dominate the minds of hundreds of Republic troops, possessed ability with Sith alchemy and was able to possess beings minds and manipulate their bodies. Dismissing the statement about him possessing terrifying power as mere hyperbole is also absurd. Hyperbole does not automatically mean 'worthless'. Obviously its meaning is that Vivicar is very powerful. He is very powerful in his own right. At least, what, Council level?

Now add him siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi Masters and hell yeah that puts him above Dooku.

<link to post

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dismissing the statement about him possessing terrifying power as mere hyperbole is also absurd. Hyperbole does not automatically mean 'worthless'. Obviously its meaning is that Vivicar is very powerful. He is very powerful in his own right. At least, what, Council level?

Now add him siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi Masters and hell yeah that puts him above Dooku.


Dooku trashes the usual Council member while smoking big, brown cuban cigars on a monday morning.

What do you mean link to post? We're already in the respect thread you lazy ass. Just read the first post, its at the bottom.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


Dooku trashes the usual Council member while smoking big, brown cuban cigars on a monday morning.

You're exaggerating his power. He is not that far above the Jedi Council.

But you forgot about the 'Now add him siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi Masters' part. Its understandable I guess, that would be easy to miss. Unless you have, you know, eyes. >:]

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you mean link to post? We're already in the respect thread you lazy ass. Just read the first post, its at the bottom.
Also I just wanted to say you're a douchebag who takes too long to create respect threads.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're exaggerating his power. He is not that far above the Jedi Council.
Obi-Wan in his absolute prime, one of the most prominent Jedi of his time and far above the average Council member, got absolutely trashed by the Count.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But you forgot about the 'Now add him siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi Masters' part. Its understandable I guess, that would be easy to miss. Unless you have, you know, eyes. >:]
Unless you have an exact examination of his improvement or a demonstration with said augmentation, I'm not buying it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Also I just wanted to say you're a douchebag who takes too long to create respect threads.

Maybe its because I actually bother to spend time reading them.

Oooh, we must be in a restaurant right now cuz you just got served!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Obi-Wan in his absolute prime, one of the most prominent Jedi of his time and far above the average Council member, got absolutely trashed by the Count.

Yeah and Obi-Wan has also gotten absolutely trashed by Ventress. I guess she must be far above Council level too.

Dooku isn't that far above the Council imo. He wouldn't trash Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi or Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Unless you have an exact examination of his improvement or a demonstration with said augmentation, I'm not buying it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe its because I actually bother to spend time reading them.

Oooh, we must be in a restaurant right now cuz you just got served!
I didn't catch your smart phrase.

Also, I could make a Malgus respect thread with all his feats from the books in a few minutes, and then you could provide game feats (if you want to).



Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah and Obi-Wan has also gotten absolutely trashed by Ventress.
When?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I guess she must be far above Council level too.
This comparison is incorrect: we know from her duels that she is roughly equal to all of them you listed below.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku isn't that far above the Council imo. He wouldn't trash Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi or Kit Fisto.
He would absolutely trash all of them. None would prove any challenge. I refer you to his little encounter with Ventress after he had betrayed Savage Opress: she blocks a few of Dooku's attacks, runs away, gets ridded of her lightsaber, gets choked and beaten with virtually no effort on Dooku's side.

No PT Council members have ever or will ever prove a challenge for Dooku unless they're Yoda, Mace or later on Anakin.


Originally posted by Nephthys

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I didn't catch your smart phrase.

Also, I could make a Malgus respect thread with all his feats from the books in a few minutes, and then you could provide game feats (if you want to).

That would be fairly easy for me. The only things he does in the game are in the trailers and in his final fight in the False Emperor flashpoint. If you need them, just PM me.

You might be underestimating how much work it would be though.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When?

The Clone Wars: Season 3, episode 12 'Nightsisters'. She duels Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time and knocks out Obi-Wan with a kick in the first 10 seconds.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This comparison is incorrect: we know from her duels that she is roughly equal to all of them you listed below.

Yes, and we know from Dooku's duels that he is roughly above the Council members. He had some trouble against Anakin in AotC and in The Clone Wars movie, and at neither point was Anakin above the Council.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He would absolutely trash all of them. None would prove any challenge. I refer you to his little encounter with Ventress after he had betrayed Savage Opress: she blocks a few of Dooku's attacks, runs away, gets ridded of her lightsaber, gets choked and beaten with virtually no effort on Dooku's side.

No PT Council members have ever or will ever prove a challenge for Dooku unless they're Yoda, Mace or later on Anakin.

If none of them prove a challenge then he should have been able to easily defeat Savage and Ventress put together. You are overestimating him.

Anakin provides a challenge for Dooku as soon as the Clone Wars movie.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


Hundreds of Jedi Masters is hundreds of Jedi Master no matter how you cut it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That would be fairly easy for me. The only things he does in the game are in the trailers and in his final fight in the False Emperor flashpoint. If you need them, just PM me.
I can start making the thread a little later with book feats (if I forget some, you could always supply me with them) and then you could make a new post with videos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You might be underestimating how much work it would be though.
Why? It's just looking up a few videos then post them here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Clone Wars: Season 3, episode 12 'Nightsisters'. She duels Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time and knocks out Obi-Wan with a kick in the first 10 seconds.
Which is irrelevant when they are equals in all one-on-one fights.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He had some trouble against Anakin in AotC and in The Clone Wars movie, and at neither point was Anakin above the Council.
Prove it.



Originally posted by Nephthys
If none of them prove a challenge then he should have been able to easily defeat Savage and Ventress put together.
His struggle against Savage and Ventress owes to some factors that a normal, unscripted fight with a Council member would not subscribe to.

a) Savage packs incredible raw power, clearly catching Dooku off-guard.

b) Savage is more powerful than all Council members except Yoda, Mace and later on Anakin.

c) The restricted space may very well have been infavorable for Dooku.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Hundreds of Jedi Masters is hundreds of Jedi Master no matter how you cut it.
This is looking like a no-limits fallacy to me.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I can start making the thread a little later with book feats (if I forget some, you could always supply me with them) and then you could make a new post with videos.

Ok.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Why? It's just looking up a few videos then post them here.

I meant more work for you.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which is irrelevant when they are equals in all one-on-one fights.

Haha, what? How does that work? Ventress was at a disadvantage since she was fighting Anakin at the same time as Obi-Wan. That it was two on one just makes it more impressive for her. That she still managed to take out Kenobi surely indicates waaaay above Council level prowess.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

AotC:

"The Count reacted immediately, backpedaling and turning to face Anakin. "That's brave of you, boy, but foolish. I would've thought you'd have learned your lesson."

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying. He tried to step out to the side, but stopped as if he had hit a wall, and his eyes widened a bit when he realized that this young Padawan, in the midst of that assault, had used the Force to block his exit.

"You have unusual powers, young Padawan," he sincerely congratulated. His little grin returned, and gradually Dooku put himself back on even footing with Anakin, trading thrust for slash and forcing Anakin to dodge and parry as often as he tried to strike."

BvnwLLXHabg

2.20. Note the sagging shoulders and that Dooku is visibly out of breath.

TCW:

Hx4m6lvpgKY

Anakin performs admirably against him, getting hits in and lasting a long time in lighsaber combat. Hell, Dooku is even on his ass at the end of the fight, lmao! shocklaugh

Also note how Dooku does not 'trash' him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
His struggle against Savage and Ventress owes to some factors that a normal, unscripted fight with a Council member would not subscribe to.

a) Savage packs incredible raw power, clearly catching Dooku off-guard.

b) Savage is more powerful than all Council members except Yoda, Mace and later on Anakin.

c) The restricted space may very well have been infavorable for Dooku.

Savage was not that much more powerful than the Council at the time, if he was at all. That he defeats a few later on is not reflective of him at that point.

Also Savages complete inability to block lightning was a huge factor in Dooku's favor, so don't act as if he was at a big disadvantage or something.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is looking like a no-limits fallacy to me.



How the hell is that a no-limits fallacy? There is clearly a limit: the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters.

I'm not even arguing he draining all of their power. But if he was siphoning as little as 5% from each of them it would still be an enormous boost.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Haha, what? How does that work? Ventress was at a disadvantage since she was fighting Anakin at the same time as Obi-Wan. That it was two on one just makes it more impressive for her. That she still managed to take out Kenobi surely indicates waaaay above Council level prowess.
No, since it is not her average performance level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
AotC:

"The Count reacted immediately, backpedaling and turning to face Anakin. "That's brave of you, boy, but foolish. I would've thought you'd have learned your lesson."

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying. He tried to step out to the side, but stopped as if he had hit a wall, and his eyes widened a bit when he realized that this young Padawan, in the midst of that assault, had used the Force to block his exit.

"You have unusual powers, young Padawan," he sincerely congratulated. His little grin returned, and gradually Dooku put himself back on even footing with Anakin, trading thrust for slash and forcing Anakin to dodge and parry as often as he tried to strike."

BvnwLLXHabg

2.20. Note the sagging shoulders and that Dooku is visibly out of breath.

TCW:

Hx4m6lvpgKY

Anakin performs admirably against him, getting hits in and lasting a long time in lighsaber combat. Hell, Dooku is even on his ass at the end of the fight, lmao! shocklaugh

Also note how Dooku does not 'trash' him.


I meant prove the Council members are above Anakin.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage was not that much more powerful than the Council at the time, if he was at all. That he defeats a few later on is not reflective of him at that point.
Savage's sheer strength and raw power transcends that of every Council member bar the obvious exceptions: the favorable environment and his arguable rage boost only made it less favorable for the Count than could be.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Savages complete inability to block lightning was a huge factor in Dooku's favor, so don't act as if he was at a big disadvantage or something.
But he was.


Originally posted by Nephthys


How the hell is that a no-limits fallacy? There is clearly a limit: the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters.

I'm not even arguing he draining all of their power. But if he was siphoning as little as 5% from each of them it would still be an enormous boost.


No, you would have to give me an exact estimation of the boost and then a demonstration of how powerful he was with the boost. Otherwise, you've got a half-assed argument existing only in your head.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, since it is not her average performance level.

Just like Dooku owning Obi-Wan is not his average performance. We saw him try and fail to pwn Obi-Wan with the Force in AotC.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


I meant prove the Council members are above Anakin.

Oh. Laff, Anakin was still geting his ass kicked by people like A'Sharad Hett at this point, while he was enraged. He was not better than most of the Council.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Savage's sheer strength and raw power transcends that of every Council member bar the obvious exceptions: the favorable environment and his arguable rage boost only made it less favorable for the Count than could be.

No, not really. While he's stronger and more powerful than them, he is also much less skilled. Especially as of the Dooku fight. The top Council members would still be good fights for him, or beat him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But he was.

He had a method to shut down Savage easily. And the room wasn't that small, he was still able to dodge him well enough for the majority of the fight. Just face it, Dooku didn't own them because Dooku couldn't own them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


No, you would have to give me an exact estimation of the boost and then a demonstration of how powerful he was with the boost. Otherwise, you've got a half-assed argument existing only in your head.

Wow, disingenuous much? No, I think you'll find I don't have to do that. If you're not smart enough to understand that drawing power from hundreds of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the galaxy would significantly boost your own power then its not my job to make you see reason. If the boost wasn't noticeable he wouldn't freaking do it. And theres the fact that the plague weakens them to the point of death, indicating a rather significant drain on them. I don't need to give you an exact estimation. Logically it would be a large boost. Anyone with a brain and without a bias against it could figure that out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just like Dooku owning Obi-Wan is not his average performance. We saw him try and fail to pwn Obi-Wan with the Force in AotC.
No, we saw Dooku try and disable Obi-Wan with lightning, which is very different from telekinesis.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh. Laff, Anakin was still geting his ass kicked by people like A'Sharad Hett at this point, while he was enraged. He was not better than most of the Council.
I would like a full account of this fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, not really. While he's stronger and more powerful than them, he is also much less skilled. Especially as of the Dooku fight. The top Council members would still be good fights for him, or beat him.
No one said they wouldn't give him good fights... but he's a better combatant than all of them bar Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just face it, Dooku didn't own them because Dooku couldn't own them.
No one he could.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, disingenuous much? No, I think you'll find I don't have to do that. If you're not smart enough to understand that drawing power from hundreds of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the galaxy would significantly boost your own power then its not my job to make you see reason. If the boost wasn't noticeable he wouldn't freaking do it. And theres the fact that the plague weakens them to the point of death, indicating a rather significant drain on them. I don't need to give you an exact estimation. Logically it would be a large boost. Anyone with a brain and without a bias against it could figure that out.


No one said he wouldn't be boosted, and he might very well be above Dooku thanks to the boost... but you've given no absolute proof to make me think so.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, we saw Dooku try and disable Obi-Wan with lightning, which is very different from telekinesis.

If Dooku could have pwned him with TK, do you not think he would have tried to after his lightning proved ineffective?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I would like a full account of this fight.

They were fighting some dudes together and Anakin gets insanely pissed off because A'Sharad is a sand person so he attacks him too, but soon gets disarmed and humbled.

Star Wars: Republic 59: Enemy Lines

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No one said they wouldn't give him good fights... but he's a better combatant than all of them bar Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Nah. Kit Fisto is Obi-Wans equal imo and would beat Savage as comfortably as Kenobi did.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No one he could.

Huh? If you meant 'no-one said he could', then you did say he could trash them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


No one said he wouldn't be boosted, and he might very well be above Dooku thanks to the boost... but you've given no absolute proof to make me think so.

Thats a pretty gay attitude. I've pointed out to you that even a portion of their strength would add up to a significant boost. I don't particularly care if you don't accept that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Dooku could have pwned him with TK, do you not think he would have tried to after his lightning proved ineffective?
Given that his obvious intention and plan was to fight the duo, no, I don't think that.



Originally posted by Nephthys
They were fighting some dudes together and Anakin gets insanely pissed off because A'Sharad is a sand person so he attacks him too, but soon gets disarmed and humbled.

Star Wars: Republic 59: Enemy Lines
I can easily draw a comparison from Anakin's unstable mind regarding sand people to his unstable mind fighting Obi-Wan.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah. Kit Fisto is Obi-Wans equal imo and would beat Savage as comfortably as Kenobi did.
I had a big lol at this.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh? If you meant 'no-one said he could', then you did say he could trash them.
Where did I say the Count would trash Ventress and Savage together in a small room surprised by Savage's betrayal?



Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't particularly care if you don't accept that.
Agree, not accept. The latter would be right if your estimation was factual, the former if it was opinion, which it is in this case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're exaggerating his power. He is not that far above the Jedi Council.

But you forgot about the 'Now add him siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi Masters' part. Its understandable I guess, that would be easy to miss. Unless you have, you know, eyes. >:]

Not that far above the Council? Are you joking? Ventress who is on par with if not superior to most of the Council gets put down by a finger in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. He is WAY above the Council.

"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "

He did what your precious Darth Nox did to Darth Thanaton with a FINGER.

Lmao, yet shockingly enough he couldn't do that in an actual fight with her.

Eh. :/

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao, yet shockingly enough he couldn't do that in an actual fight with her.

Neither could Nox at the end of their battle.

+The only time they fought 1v1 Dooku intentionally used sabers. The other time he effortlessly pwned her with lightning.

2v1s don't count, neither do 3v1s not that it matters as he still came out on top. Dooku humiliates people of Ventress' level regularly with the force, whether it be her, Kenobi, or hell even Sora Bulq. He is FAR above regular councilors. In the PT era if your name isn't Yoda, Mace, or Anakin you cannot compete with the Count. Period.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Given that his obvious intention and plan was to fight the duo, no, I don't think that.

His intention was to kill Obi-Wan, hence why he, y'know, tried to kill him after defeating him in lightsabers. If he could have defeated him so simply with TK I don't see why he didn't and then run him through on the spot. Hell, it would drastically accelerate Anakin's fall in all likelihood.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I can easily draw a comparison from Anakin's unstable mind regarding sand people to his unstable mind fighting Obi-Wan.

Er, why? Anakin freaking hates them. He wouldn't be conflicted over it like he was with Kenobi.

Anyway, thats purely speculative.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I had a big lol at this.

That's nice.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Where did I say the Count would trash Ventress and Savage together in a small room surprised by Savage's betrayal?

He wouldn't own them even if they were in an open field and Dooku was hopped up on caffeine.

You said he could trash Council level people. When I pointed out that he didn't do that in his fight with Ventress and Savage you backpedaled and claimed circumstances like a coward.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Agree, not accept. The latter would be right if your estimation was factual, the former if it was opinion, which it is in this case.

All arguments are merely opinions based upon interpretations of the evidence. I've looked at the evidence and concluded that logically being boosted by hundreds powerful Jedi Masters would be a significant boost, based on the fact that I possess a working brain. Vivicar states that this boost will soon make him more powerful than the mother****ing Sith Emperor. Its ridiculous to think its not large.

Whats your interpretation? What, that he was only draining .01% of their power? Yeah, I'm sure thats why it was such a strain that it was killing them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Neither could Nox at the end of their battle.

+The only time they fought 1v1 Dooku intentionally used sabers. The other time he effortlessly pwned her with lightning.

2v1s don't count, neither do 3v1s not that it matters as he still came out on top. Dooku humiliates people of Ventress' level regularly with the force, whether it be her, Kenobi, or hell even Sora Bulq. He is FAR above regular councilors. In the PT era if your name isn't Yoda, Mace, or Anakin you cannot compete with the Count. Period.

Maybe because unlike Ventress, Thanaton had the opportunity to actually fight back and resist it.

Not really. In the fight following Savage going berserk he didn't insta-pwn her. They dueled for a bit. Plus she has trumped him a few times with TK, smacking him down in the Nightsister fight and pulling his lightsaber away when he tried to recall it and redirecting it into a pipe in their Savage fight.

2 on 1s don't count? Lol, since when? If its so easy for him to pwn his opponents then it doesn't matter if theres someone else there, he should be capable of owning them regardless and then turn to their ally. Particularly since Opress spent the majority of the fight on the floor from lightning and he spends good portions of the fight taking them on 1 on 1. Quit cherry-picking.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His intention was to kill Obi-Wan, hence why he, y'know, tried to kill him after defeating him in lightsabers. If he could have defeated him so simply with TK I don't see why he didn't and then run him through on the spot. Hell, it would drastically accelerate Anakin's fall in all likelihood.

His intention was to display superior mastery and toy with him, not kill Obi-Wan the minut he stepped inside the hangar.








Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, why? Anakin freaking hates them. He wouldn't be conflicted over it like he was with Kenobi.

Anyway, thats purely speculative.
You do... remember... that they took his mother and tortured her, right?


Originally posted by Nephthys
That's nice.
I am nice.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He wouldn't own them even if they were in an open field and Dooku was hopped up on caffeine.
Lol'd again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You said he could trash Council level people. When I pointed out that he didn't do that in his fight with Ventress and Savage you backpedaled and claimed circumstances like a coward.
Dooku's ability to trash Council level fighters is partly thanks to his vast superior telekinetic power (as seen he can ragdoll almost all of them; demonstrated against Kenobi and Ventress multiple times): Rage enhanced Opress? His power is above all of the Council members, thus not easy to telekinetically manhandle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
All arguments are merely opinions based upon interpretations of the evidence. I've looked at the evidence and concluded that logically being boosted by hundreds powerful Jedi Masters would be a significant boost, based on the fact that I possess a working brain. Vivicar states that this boost will soon make him more powerful than the mother****ing Sith Emperor. Its ridiculous to think its not large.

Whats your interpretation? What, that he was only draining .01% of their power? Yeah, I'm sure thats why it was such a strain that it was killing them.

Originally posted by Me
No one said he wouldn't be boosted, and he might very well be above Dooku thanks to the boost... but you've given no absolute proof to make me think so.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
His intention was to display superior mastery and toy with him, not kill Obi-Wan the minut he stepped inside the hangar.

He could easily have toyed with him and demonstrated his superior mastery through TK. If that was his intention, allowing Kenobi to casually block his lightning attacks doesn't really make much sense.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You do... remember... that they took his mother and tortured her, right?

Of course. Therefore I don't see why he wouldn't attack in full fury like he did after she died.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku's ability to trash Council level fighters is partly thanks to his vast superior telekinetic power (as seen he can ragdoll almost all of them; demonstrated against Kenobi and Ventress multiple times): Rage enhanced Opress? His power is above all of the Council members, thus not easy to telekinetically manhandle.

Whom he can manhandle with lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He could easily have toyed with him and demonstrated his superior mastery through TK. If that was his intention, allowing Kenobi to casually block his lightning attacks doesn't really make much sense.
Dooku is a first and foremost a duelist, not a Force practitioner. Point out to me when Dooku has used telekinesis right at the start of his fights. Against Ventress in OCW? Dueled her first, disarmed her telekinetically later. Ventress in TCW? Dueled her first, disarmed her telekinetically later. What about Grievous? To my knowledge, Dooku has never attacked Grievous telekinetically, only dueled him. List goes on. Dooku tried to show superior mastery with lightning, which failed. He then tried to do it in a lightsaber duel, as is his preference, in which he prevailed.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course. Therefore I don't see why he wouldn't attack in full fury like he did after she died.
Because that ''full fury'' is emotional and restricts his skill and power, ala against Kenobi.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Whom he can manhandle with lightning.
Which only prolonged the fight.

Consular Holonet profile.

Game Rules description.

General Description.

"In truth, you are becoming one of the greatest force users our order has ever seen" - Satele Shan.

Credit to Selenial for finding the accolade.

Excellent Force accolade, indeed.

NReNGMETNWk

0.50. The Barsen'thor easily summons a vision of an unknown planet across the galaxy and of the future. Impressive galaxy-wide senses and foresight. This is similar to them sensing the events on Makeb seen here.

"Your role in bringing light to the Revanites' conspiracy is only further proof of your tremendous skill and connection to the force. What's more, you've battled against the Children of the Emperor and triumphed where so many others fell." - Satele Shan. Credit to Ant.