Darth Krayt vs Darth Malgus

Q99

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Its not a pointless statement. Sidious's assessment covers enormous span of galactic history during which many remarkable Sith Lords have risen and influenced galactic events. You think that Krayt is a standout among all of his predecessors?

Considering he conquered the galaxy and accomplished more than all but a few sith, yes, certainly.

Sidious's predecessors never mentioned Sidious as one of the strongest, and for the exact same reason.

I will note that Darth Andeddu was noted as a standout by Dooku for the power of his sorcery and for being so feared during his time in the ancient Sith Empire, and Darth Andeddu lost to Wyyrlok, who in turn is weaker than Krayt.

The circumstance of a strong Jedi order and a stable Galactic Alliance, before he acted.

He made his circumstances. He caused the fall of the Jedi and for the galaxy to turn against the Alliance and to the Empire, which he then took.

Are you criticizing Krayt for not having a big impact in eras he wasn't in? I will note Malgus had zero impact on the KotoR era or Clone Wars era.

Krayt even before his era proper fought the Abeloth and was considered powerful by Luke (too powerful to be one of the Lost Tribe of the Sith, who did put up a fight against many of Luke's order). In his own era, when he was ready to strike, he destroyed half the Jedi and conquered the galaxy. The primary reason there are not more Jedi is because he and his Sith killed them. Also, Jedi and Sith from the past kept popping up to fight him, to add to the competition beyond his own Jedi and Imperial Knight foes.

His impact in his era surpasses Malgus's during his.

He never compared them. Though, Muur has great healing power, and Vader's the chosen one. Of course a healthy (or at least, healthier, don't think he could do limbs but he could at least heal up most of the burns) Vader would be better, healthy chosen one >> everyone.

Oh, you aren't too familiar with Krayt, are you?

For the last century or so, Krayt had been infected by Vong growths, and constantly had to fight against him, limited his force power by requiring constant effort. Upon his encounter with Muur, he was not only freed of the Vong growths thanks to Muur's healing, but combining what he saw of Muur's technique with the knowledge of the immortal Sith Andeddu and of Cade Skywalker's healing technique he was able to pass through death and self-resurrect using the dark transfer technique, gaining knowledge through the passage itself.

Upon his revival, his return was felt across the entire galaxy, and when he fought Cade he placed his hand on him and then killed and resurrected him on the spot.

In short, when Muur actually fought Krayt, it was Krayt hindered by the implants. Upon his resurrection not only was Krayt unleashed at his full, but had learned the mastery over life and death that prior sith like Palpatine so wanted.

ares834

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Has Krayt succesfully killed with Dark transfer mid-combat?

No. But he did use it to bring Cade to the brink of death and, had he wished, Krayt could have used it to kill him.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Krayt is probably more skilled, has more knowledge and is arguably faster, while Malgus is more powerful, physically stronger and has better pain endurance.

thumb up

NewGuy01

Originally posted by ares834
No. But he did use it to bring Cade to the brink of death and, had he wished, Krayt could have used it to kill him.

Actually, he did use it in combat--You know, practically killing Cade and using it to bring him back at the last possible instant. It does require physical contact, though.

Q99

Considering he was talking with Cade about passing through death being required to see the truth, it's arguable he did kill Cade and bring him back, similar to what happened to himself.

ares834

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Actually, he did use it in combat--You know, practically killing Cade and using it to bring him back at the last possible instant. It does require physical contact, though.

Read what Intrepid asked.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Has Krayt succesfully killed with Dark transfer mid-combat?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by ares834
laughcry

laughing out loud

Care to offer a rebuttal?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayt probably. Dark transfer is a kill if he can touch you right?
So we can safely assume that Krayt can kill anybody with this technique? Sidious? Luke? Vitiate? Yoda? Plagueis? Marr? Nihilus? Decimus? Revan? Abeloth? The Father? The Son? The Daughter?

Originally posted by Q99
Considering he conquered the galaxy and accomplished more than all but a few sith, yes, certainly.
A galaxy which had been previously ravaged by lot of wars and Abeloth's exploits? I am not impressed.

It was obvious that fall of competitors such as Vader, Sidious, Kun, UnuThul, Caedus and Abeloth would pave way for one of the "lesser ones" to exploit a galaxy in turmoil. I am not trying to assert that Krayt is a looser but he doesn't appears to be among the most capable Sith Lords of all times.

Originally posted by Q99
Sidious's predecessors never mentioned Sidious as one of the strongest, and for the exact same reason.
I don't recall that anybody (a Sith Lord in particular) who succeeded Sidious was ranking his predecessors.

Originally posted by Q99
I will note that Darth Andeddu was noted as a standout by Dooku for the power of his sorcery and for being so feared during his time in the ancient Sith Empire, and Darth Andeddu lost to Wyyrlok, who in turn is weaker than Krayt.
Wyyrlok lost to Krayt in a very close contest. Also, I am not sure if Sith during Andeddu's time were remarkably strong or something. I recall that Sith of Vitiate's Sith Empire were much superior to the Sith of the previous ancient Sith Empire. This standard have never been duplicated ever since. However, exceptions have existed in different eras (I am not surprised by the fact that select few individuals in different eras were superior to Andeddu).

However, put Andeddu in Vitiate's Sith Empire and he is toast; Vitiate set a new standard for Sith:

Keep in mind that the aforementioned "additional improvement" is on top of the "previous improvement" of Sith in times after Andeddu's reign. And after Vitiate established his Sith Empire, Sith progressed even further, producing generation after generation of some of the most powerful dark side practitioners ever to grace the galaxy. So Wyyrlok's victory over Andeddu doesn't impresses me very much. He himself wouldn't be a big deal in lets say Vitiate's Sith Empire. Same is true for Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
The circumstance of a strong Jedi order and a stable Galactic Alliance, before he acted.

He made his circumstances. He caused the fall of the Jedi and for the galaxy to turn against the Alliance and to the Empire, which he then took.
So the galaxy was perfectly healthy after all of the previous wars and Abeloth's exploits? Give me a break.

Originally posted by Q99
Are you criticizing Krayt for not having a big impact in eras he wasn't in? I will note Malgus had zero impact on the KotoR era or Clone Wars era.
No, in times of Vader, Sidious, Kun, UnuThul, Caedus, Abeloth and vice versa.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt even before his era proper fought the Abeloth and was considered powerful by Luke (too powerful to be one of the Lost Tribe of the Sith, who did put up a fight against many of Luke's order). In his own era, when he was ready to strike, he destroyed half the Jedi and conquered the galaxy. The primary reason there are not more Jedi is because he and his Sith killed them. Also, Jedi and Sith from the past kept popping up to fight him, to add to the competition beyond his own Jedi and Imperial Knight foes.
He posed no threat to Abeloth on his own. That entity was defeated by combined efforts of many Force-users. Krayt survived during his encounter with Abeloth with aid of Luke. It is nonetheless an impressive performance from him but not enough to declare him a standout.

Lost Tribe of the Sith never impressed me. It was representative of one of the "decaying remnants" of the Sith from ancient times who were a bunch of nobodies until found.

Originally posted by Q99
His impact in his era surpasses Malgus's during his.
Malgus made some impact in a MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE era then Krayt ever did. Force-users dropped left and right like flies during Malgus's era and competition on the whole was of unparalleled scale. Even the iconic Revan suffered set-back during this era. As pointed out earlier by me, put Krayt in this era and watch him fail miserably.

Originally posted by Q99
He never compared them. Though, Muur has great healing power, and Vader's the chosen one. Of course a healthy (or at least, healthier, don't think he could do limbs but he could at least heal up most of the burns) Vader would be better, healthy chosen one >> everyone.
Labels do not make an individual unstoppable or something. Chosen One label means squat after Vader's injuries on Mustafar. It is just that Krayt isn't such a big deal as you are trying to make him out to be.

Originally posted by Q99
For the last century or so, Krayt had been infected by Vong growths, and constantly had to fight against him, limited his force power by requiring constant effort. Upon his encounter with Muur, he was not only freed of the Vong growths thanks to Muur's healing, but combining what he saw of Muur's technique with the knowledge of the immortal Sith Andeddu and of Cade Skywalker's healing technique he was able to pass through death and self-resurrect using the dark transfer technique, gaining knowledge through the passage itself.
Impressive but he is not unique in this aspect; Sion have much superior accomplishment in this aspect. Sion held his (destroyed) body together with his sheer mastery of the dark side.

Malgus also sustained through lot of life-threatening injuries with his fury (his body had to be mechanically stitched eventually) but he functioned properly with his sheer mastery of the dark side. Heck, Malak lost his entire lower jaw and still survived and functioned properly without eating with his sheer mastery of the dark side.

Originally posted by Q99
Upon his revival, his return was felt across the entire galaxy, and when he fought Cade he placed his hand on him and then killed and resurrected him on the spot.
Nice talent he acquired! So is this an indication of Cade's weakness or should we assume that Krayt can do this to anybody?

Originally posted by Q99
In short, when Muur actually fought Krayt, it was Krayt hindered by the implants. Upon his resurrection not only was Krayt unleashed at his full, but had learned the mastery over life and death that prior sith like Palpatine so wanted.
Palpatine have been a vastly superior practitioner of the dark side then Krayt and could function in both materialistic and spiritual realms much like the older Sith Emperor Vitiate. And no sentient ever managed to conquer death fully in the galactic history (Krayt perished as well, remember?); Vitiate was the only sentient who came close to accomplishing this objective but he was stopped, thanks to efforts of multiple Force-users.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So we can safely assume that Krayt can kill anybody with this technique? Sidious? Luke? Vitiate? Yoda? Plagueis? Marr? Nihilus? Decimus? Revan? Abeloth? The Father? The Son? The Daughter?

Perhaps. If they have no knowledge against the technique or how to defend against it I'm unsure of how they would.

Also I'm a little disturbed by you putting Decimus in that list. erm

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps. If they have no knowledge against the technique or how to defend against it I'm unsure of how they would.
Dark Transfer is an ancient Force application; it is not a new invention since its knowledge goes back to era of Force Wars. So I find it hard to believe that most prominent practitioners of the dark side would have no knowledge of it or do not knew how to handle it. Sith (of True Sith Empire) were specially extremely knowleageable in the ways of the dark side. Heck, even Revan acquired enormous wealth of dark side knowledge during his short reign as Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I'm a little disturbed by you putting Decimus in that list.
big grin

Well, the purpose of that list is to make a point.

On side note: Decimus is canonically among the greatest Sith warriors of the mythos. Decimus, Thanaton and Malgus are counted among the "champions of battle" within Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Decimus is known to have fought in the front lines and could collapse armies with his sheer mastery of the dark side:

Darth Decimus, known as "the Bastion Lord" by his troops, has a reputation for leading from the front, charging into battle, and breaking apart enemy lines through sheer force of will.

Only the mightiest of the Force-users are capable of making big impact in battles in this manner, collapsing/defeating whole armies with their exploits and capabilities.

Q99

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dark Transfer is an ancient Force application; it is not a new invention since its knowledge goes back to era of Force Wars. So I find it hard to believe that most prominent practitioners of the dark side would have no knowledge of it or do not knew how to handle it. Sith (of True Sith Empire) were specially extremely knowleageable in the ways of the dark side. Heck, even Revan acquired enormous wealth of dark side knowledge during his short reign as Sith.

No it's not. Cade Skywalker was the first user of Dark Transfer. Krayt uses knowledge of older sith healing to improve it, but he's the only other known user.

It's a technique created during the Legacy era. Quite notably, not even Sidious achieved it, and we all know how much he was into life extension.

Perhaps not Abeloth or the Ones, since they're freaky... though, maybe.

But the mortals? Sure, as long as he gets a good hand on them, of course they'd die.

War often makes force users stronger, and few of the top Jedi were killed in those conflicts, so they retained their skill to pass on. The New Jedi Order was a very strong era for the Jedi that accumulated knowledge from many sources and eras and had incredible combat skills.

Also, there was time to heal, the Jedi order was about ten thousand strong (trained by Luke's impressive students) when the Sith struck. Plus there was the Imperial Knights as well.

Do you not know that Legacy takes place well after Caedus's rise? It wasn't in turmoil before the One Sith made it in turmoil, Caedus's time was most of a century past and the turmoil had long since died down. And the stuff after Caedus hasn't caused major galactic chaos.

The Lost Tribe were lesser ones who struck when things were in turmoil caused by others, and they failed. Krayt did not wait for an opportunity, he made it, and he succeeded.

When Luke met Krayt, he could tell he was too strong to be of the Lost Tribe, and talked about the balance between himself and Krayt serving as the new "Ones". Luke Skywalker gives him props.

You just seem to be assuming he's weak based on... well, nothing that I can find, just era bias.

He's both conquered the galaxy and achieved force powers that no Sith before him did.

You're trying to rank Krayt low based on him not being ranked by people who existed before him. Excuse me for pointing out the inconsistencies.

Wyyrlok, a Legacy sith, lost to Krayt in a close combat. Andeddu lost to Wyyrlok in a flat-out stomp.

And Andeddu's power and sorcery was famous enough that Dooku was talking about it six thousand years later, and people often mention how the Sith of the ancient empire were powerful (Kreia certainly does, and we know other strong sith from it).

Andeddu was strong enough during his time of the Empire that the other Sith had to gang up on him to beat him.

Now, obviously, Andeddu's era wasn't one of the strongest... because even the best of his era was quite below the top Legacy era characters. When the best of an era is well outmatched in their own specialty, that's a pretty good gap.

Caedus's death: 41 ABY. Krayt's rise: 130 ABY.

That is 89 years, multiple generations. And Abeloth didn't actually cause much galactic damage, in large part thanks to Krayt.

Now, if Krayt had taken over in ABY 60-70 like in Jacen's vision, you'd have more of an argument... though in that timeline Jacen wouldn't have fallen and become Caedus anyway.

Time of Vader- obviously not near his full power, still a Jedi. Beat Aurra Sing and Anakin Skywalker in fights. Known to be an era with high lightsaber skill.

UnuThul- The leader of a minor conflict. So? Krayt was training under XoXaan at the time, and had he not been, hardly worth his time. Krayt had no reason to get involved.

Caedus- Was the actual reason Caedus turned Darkside. Jacen saw a vision of Krayt conquering the galaxy and turning his daughter to the dark, and thus turned Sith to try and prevent it.

Abeloth- Beat Abeloth with Luke. Seriously, how can you can call that no impact when he and Luke double-teamed the big bad and took her down and his presence was crucial to the victory?

Kun- .... 4,000 years before he was born.

Legacy- Conquered the galaxy, the second largest conquests of any Sith. The only ones with conquests that can be compared are Revan, Vitiate, Ruin, and of course the champion of the category, Sidious. Every last one of them exceptional.

Your standards are weird.

----

Krayt's the most powerful of an era that stands well above some other eras, and people like Luke and Jacen saw him as quite powerful even in his pre-resurrection period.

Malgus is from a highly competitive era, sure, but he's very much not the most powerful in it, so it really doesn't say as much as you think it says. Malgus is not Vitiate, and while Krayt's not Vitiate either, as a sith both his power and especially impact stand up there.

Krayt's impact exceeded Malgus's by a lot.

NewGuy01

I just saw someone say Krayt vs Wyyrlok was a close fight. This is all but the truth. Sure, their lightning cancelled out at the start. But then Krayt effortlessly smacked away Wyyrlok's TK, kicked his ass in lightsaber combat, then resisted his last-resort Force Illusions and killed him. no expression

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Malgus is from a highly competitive era, sure, but he's very much not the most powerful in it, so it really doesn't say as much as you think it says. Malgus is not Vitiate, and while Krayt's not Vitiate either, as a sith both his power and especially impact stand up there.
My point is that Malgus have remarkable accomplishments under his belt in an era in which even icons of other eras could not flourish well. Put Krayt in the same era and watch him die.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt's impact exceeded Malgus's by a lot.
Both lived in different eras and faced challenges; the latter much more tougher ones. So this black and white comparison is silly.

Based on holistic evidence, Malgus would crush Krayt after some fight. The latter have never fought opponents on level of Malgus and prevailed and neither he packs such a punch.

XRKun

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My point is that Malgus have remarkable accomplishments under his belt in an era in which even icons of other eras could not flourish well. Put Krayt in the same era and watch him die.

Both lived in different eras and faced challenges; the latter much more tougher ones. So this black and white comparison is silly.

Based on holistic evidence, Malgus would crush Krayt after some fight. The latter have never fought opponents on level of Malgus and prevailed and neither he packs such a punch.

I wouldn't consider Zallow or Darach on Dooku level in sabers, but like you said, Malgus has been fighting for 20 years or so. He's arguably the 3rd best Djem So practicioner to ever live. Malgus even got his perma boost at the end of Deceived. And didn't he kill 2 Jedi effortlessly after getting nuked by Satele's TK?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by XRKun I wouldn't consider Zallow or Darach on Dooku level in sabers, but like you said, Malgus has been fighting for 20 years or so. He's arguably the 3rd best Djem So practicioner to ever live. Malgus even got his perma boost at the end of Deceived. And didn't he kill 2 Jedi effortlessly after getting nuked by Satele's TK?
It is safe to assume that all 3 (Zallow, Darach and Dooku) were among the finest duelists of the Jedi Order. If comparison is to be made then Darach takes the crown among these in martial aspects, IMO.

And yes, Malgus fought two more Jedi after his disastrous confrontation with Satele Shan on Aldeeran and slaughtered both of them regardless of being heavily injured in this case/scenario. In-fact, one of these Jedi was (evidently) a powerhouse and still lost. This level of performance/display of power alone should give second-thoughts to people about Malgus's power (in positive manner) but it is often unfortunately under-appreciated.

DarthAnt66

Only thing Decimus got going for him is that his name matches the Gladiator's middle...besides that, I say the Exile could beat him. laughing out loud

http://irreal.blogs.sapo.pt/arquivo/gladiator_036.jpg

Wrong. Luke survived against Abeloth on the final encounter at the end only thanks to Krayt draining the life out of Abeloth...even from then, Krayt walked away from the fight while Luke needed to be inspired to continue to move from the spirit of Mara.

Honestly, I'm going with Krayt on this one. His force abilies are a much greater range and variety then Malgus's, and though he lacks Malgus's pure rage, he is a very capable and deadly fighter.

"I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills during the Clone Wars and have killed thousands of opponents since then."

Anyway, a better fight would be Darth Bane vs Malgus, I feel we can compare them easier. wink

PS: Oh and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Malgus only stalemate a neophyte padawan in his OWN novel... laughing

Nephthys

She was hardly a neophyte.

And Malgus pwned a Jedi Knight who collapsed two buildings on top of him in The Third Lesson. While he was gravely injured from his fight with Satele in the Hope trailer. He's nothing to laugh at.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dark Transfer is an ancient Force application; it is not a new invention since its knowledge goes back to era of Force Wars. So I find it hard to believe that most prominent practitioners of the dark side would have no knowledge of it or do not knew how to handle it. Sith (of True Sith Empire) were specially extremely knowleageable in the ways of the dark side. Heck, even Revan acquired enormous wealth of dark side knowledge during his short reign as Sith.

I'm going to trust Q99 on this one, since he's the most knowledgable on Krayt and the Legacy era. Although I am interested in Tempests opinion now.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
big grin

Well, the purpose of that list is to make a point.

On side note: Decimus is canonically among the greatest Sith warriors of the mythos.

No, he isn't. That he stood out in the Old Republic era doesn't make him comparable to the other on that list. He's Dark Council level, and while that is high, it does not make him one of the best in the mythos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Decimus, Thanaton and Malgus are counted among the "champions of battle" within Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Not really any more impressive than him just being on the Dark Council imo.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Decimus is known to have fought in the front lines and could collapse armies with his sheer mastery of the dark side:

Darth Decimus, known as "the Bastion Lord" by his troops, has a reputation for leading from the front, charging into battle, and breaking apart enemy lines through sheer force of will.

Only the mightiest of the Force-users are capable of making big impact in battles in this manner, collapsing/defeating whole armies with their exploits and capabilities.

Again, not especially impressive. Breaking enemy lines is something I'd expect any good Sith to be able to do.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anyway, a better fight would be Darth Bane vs Malgus, I feel we can compare them easier. wink

Malgus>Bane

DarthAnt66

"Malgus>Bane"

http://media.tumblr.com/521f4c4ee51101124b1db88d32e050d9/tumblr_inline_mgjbhmz3A31rykc9c.gif

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

yes, he is.

DarthAnt66

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/4/4f/Cas-shake-head.gif

Nephthys

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
yes, he is.

No he isn't.

Bane>Krayt>/=Malgus

Nephthys

He's laughing at you.

He agrees with me. excellent

ares834

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Malgus>Bane

thumb up

Malgus is what Bane want to be when he grows up.

Intrepid37

Malgus is more powerful than Bane.

XRKun

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Malgus>Bane

No. Just no. If anything, Malgus is a slowe (not much though), weaker (again not by much) predcessor to Bane.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Only thing Decimus got going for him is that his name matches the Gladiator's middle...besides that, I say the Exile could beat him. laughing out loud

http://irreal.blogs.sapo.pt/arquivo/gladiator_036.jpg
I will not speculate about Meetra's chances against Decimus. She may or may not be better then him but chances of the latter are strong since Decimus was renowned for his power and skill in an extremely competitive era and I doubt that Meetra can hang with paragons of Malgus's era.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Wrong. Luke survived against Abeloth on the final encounter at the end only thanks to Krayt draining the life out of Abeloth...even from then, Krayt walked away from the fight while Luke needed to be inspired to continue to move from the spirit of Mara.
Luke prevented Abeloth from killing Krayt, no?

And Abeloth would have drained both to death but she was eventually undermined by over-stretching herself by combating Force-users on different fronts in various parts of the galaxy during the course of this encounter. Krayt and Luke were lucky in this context.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Honestly, I'm going with Krayt on this one. His force abilies are a much greater range and variety then Malgus's, and though he lacks Malgus's pure rage, he is a very capable and deadly fighter.

"I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills during the Clone Wars and have killed thousands of opponents since then."
This is your personal speculation. Fact is that Malgus have effectively dealt with more impressive opposition then Krayt ever has and his performance on the whole was decent enough to impress Sidious who have extreme standards by all accounts.

By the way, Muur regarded Vader to be more impressive then Krayt regardless of the latter's supposed greater range and variety and this is sufficient to convince me that Malgus would be above Krayt as well. Also, do not underestimate Malgus's knowledge of the Force; chances are good that he knows lot more about the dark side then what we have seen on screen. Their are solid reasons for him being able to flourish in an extremely competitive era.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anyway, a better fight would be Darth Bane vs Malgus, I feel we can compare them easier. wink

PS: Oh and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Malgus only stalemate a neophyte padawan in his OWN novel... laughing

Neophyte padawan?

Aryn Leener is canonically recognized as among the most powerful Jedi of her time, rivaled only be Satele and Syo in the ways of the Force and skills. Holistically, it is safe to rank her among the most powerful Jedi of all times.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's laughing at you.

He agrees with me. excellent

nah.

Nephthys

Originally posted by XRKun
No. Just no. If anything, Malgus is a slowe (not much though), weaker (again not by much) predcessor to Bane.

thumb up

Although I think the gap is a bit larger.

S_W_LeGenD

@Nephthys

According to Sidious's personal assessment, Malgus is the finest warrior among the Sith. He appreciated Bane in different aspect, if I recall correctly.

Malgus's profile in Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side is about exemplary power and skill. Bane's is about philosophy and importance of Rule of Two, if I am not mistaken.

Nephthys

That isn't what he says.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
That isn't what he says.
That is what is being implied in the referred source. Every account in this source have a purpose (5 in total) and represents different aspects of the ways of Sith.

Malgus represents finest embodiment of power and skill in this source.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by Nephthys
That isn't what he says.
According to yourself, Sidious's thoughts about Malgus has clear importance regarding Malgus's victory over Vader. Why does it not have importance regarding a fight against Bane?

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That is what is being implied in the referred source. Every account in this source have a purpose (5 in total) and represents different aspects of the ways of Sith.

Malgus represents finest embodiment of power and skill in this source.

Sidious also says:

"The excerpts from the journal of Darth Malgus kept during the Great Galactic War some thirty-six centuries ago are a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage. The war was an unbounded success for the era's Sith Emperor, and Malgus was one of his best soldiers."
―Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Intrepid37
According to yourself, Sidious's thoughts about Malgus has clear importance regarding Malgus's victory over Vader. Why does it not have importance regarding a fight against Bane?

Sidious describes Malgus in the Book of Sith as 'an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been equalled.'

This doesn't allow for a comparison to Bane since Bane has never fought on a battlefield. I used it as a comparison to Vader since Anakin has fought in the Clone Wars and Sidious is well aware of his accomplishments in it. For Sidious to say that Malgus' feats weren't equaled creates a default comparison to Vader, whom Sidious is knowledgeable in terms of abilities.

ares834

Bane fought at Ruusan briefly after the Thought Bomb.

Anyway, by "battlefield feats" it seems Sidious is simply referring to combat feats. Although, he is likely over-hyping Malgus.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm going to trust Q99 on this one, since he's the most knowledgable on Krayt and the Legacy era. Although I am interested in Tempests opinion now.
I think that the destructive potential of this application is being overhyped. It reminds me of Dark Healing application which is very similar in nature; this originally made me assume that Dark Transfer could be just a different name given to Dark Healing application or related since ancient Sith such as Muur and Andeddu seemed to be familiar with its mechanics and taught Krayt about how to refine his mastery over Dark Transfer. Heck, it could just be a rehashed Dark Healing application.

Another point is that the kind of advantage that Krayt held over Cade with knowledge of this application may not be as much in case of another formidable dark side practitioner.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he isn't. That he stood out in the Old Republic era doesn't make him comparable to the other on that list. He's Dark Council level, and while that is high, it does not make him one of the best in the mythos.
Being a standout in TOR era is actually a big deal. This is an era in which some of the greatest threats (ever) to the galaxy were eventually foiled. Being Dark Council level is actually a big deal since it is clear from canonical revelation that Dark Council members are typically extremely competent practitioners of the dark side. Dark Council members are logically (and evidently) among the most powerful practitioners of the dark side in the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really any more impressive than him just being on the Dark Council imo.
Note that even the most powerful Jedi of PT era struggled against armies of droids and could effectively undermine them with external aid in most cases. Look no further then Yoda's performance on the first episode of latest TCW series.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, not especially impressive. Breaking enemy lines is something I'd expect any good Sith to be able to do.
Seriously? How many do you think have dominated armies on their own?

Intrepid37

Nephthys

Originally posted by ares834
Bane fought at Ruusan briefly after the Thought Bomb.

Anyway, by "battlefield feats" it seems Sidious is simply referring to combat feats. Although, he is likely over-hyping Malgus.

He didn't actually fight on Ruusan and certainly never in actual battle.

You could read it that way. But as you say I'd prefer not to put too much stock in it. I wouldn't argue for example 'Sidious says he is the best so Malgus is the best fighter in SW!' I would be more comfortable taking it as minimally and literally as possible and only use it to compare Malgus to people Sidious has a good chance at being accurate about. And even then, not as a flat "Malgus > X because Sidious says so". Its simply evidence one way imo.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you take the statement literally, having good battlefield feats has no bearing on a fight.

Because your feats on a battlefield have no bearing on your combat abilities in a one on one fight? I disagree.

Intrepid37

Either Sidious's claim makes Malgus better than both Bane and Vader, or it makes him better than neither.

Choose wisely, my friend.

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't actually fight on Ruusan and certainly never in actual battle.

Not in a battle. I was referring to his short little fight against some troopers in RoT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You could read it that way. But as you say I'd prefer not to put too much stock in it. I wouldn't argue for example 'Sidious says he is the best so Malgus is the best fighter in SW!' I would be more comfortable taking it as minimally and literally as possible and only use it to compare Malgus to people Sidious has a good chance at being accurate about. And even then, not as a flat "Malgus > X because Sidious says so". Its simply evidence one way imo.

I'd agree. It's a nice accolade but not much more.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious also says:

"The excerpts from the journal of Darth Malgus kept during the Great Galactic War some thirty-six centuries ago are a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage. The war was an unbounded success for the era's Sith Emperor, and Malgus was one of his best soldiers."
―Darth Sidious

Sidious describes Malgus in the Book of Sith as 'an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been equalled.'

This doesn't allow for a comparison to Bane since Bane has never fought on a battlefield. I used it as a comparison to Vader since Anakin has fought in the Clone Wars and Sidious is well aware of his accomplishments in it. For Sidious to say that Malgus' feats weren't equaled creates a default comparison to Vader, whom Sidious is knowledgeable in terms of abilities.
I would try clarify the confusion involving this matter:-

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side represents some of the finest embodiment(s) of various ways of Sith:-

Sorzus Syn -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Alchemy
Darth Malgus -> embodiment of exemplary power and combat prowess
Darth Bane -> embodiment of exemplary Sith philosophy
Mother Talzin -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Sorcery
Darth Plagueis -> embodiment of exemplary scientific manipulation of the Force

Of-course, Sidious recognizes the fact that Malgus may have been rivaled by others in power and skill within the Sith Empire he served. However, he regraded Malgus as the greatest embodiment of power and combat prowess among the individuals he considered for his assessment involving Sith teachings.

Clear enough?

I think that you should have a look at this book.

It is safe to assume that Malgus is stronger and superior warrior then Bane, Vader and many other Sith whom Sidious had great deal of knowledge about.

Originally posted by ares834
Although, he is likely over-hyping Malgus.
No

Nephthys

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either Sidious's claim makes Malgus better than both Bane and Vader, or it makes him better than neither.

Choose wisely, my friend.

Nah.

It makes me sexually excited when you refer to me as your friend.

Originally posted by ares834
Not in a battle. I was referring to his short little fight against some troopers in RoT.

I'd agree. It's a nice accolade but not much more.

Meh. I wouldn't call that a real battle. More like a slaughter. But whatever.

Malgus > Yoda. Sidious says so lololololol!

Mizukage Yoda

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This pleases me, at last the head of the Sphere of Military Strategy gets some feats and hype. Also is there anything in there about Darth Arho?
Not much. The book reveals that Illum was invaded by powerful Sith (I guess that Darth Arho is one?) and a remark from Darth Arho to eliminate all opposition in this planet.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I think that the destructive potential of this application is being overhyped. It reminds me of Dark Healing application which is very similar in nature; this originally made me assume that Dark Transfer could be just a different name given to Dark Healing application or related since ancient Sith such as Muur and Andeddu seemed to be familiar with its mechanics and taught Krayt about how to refine his mastery over Dark Transfer. Heck, it could just be a rehashed Dark Healing application.

Another point is that the kind of advantage that Krayt held over Cade with knowledge of this application may not be as much in case of another formidable dark side practitioner.

Thats entirely speculative. It 'could' be a you say, but you've given no evidence that it actually is. As far as I know, its treated as a brand new Force power.

Cade is the only one else to be known to possess the technique, and thus can be argued to know of a way to block it. So I would argue it probably does mean that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Being a standout in TOR era is actually a big deal. This is an era in which some of the greatest threats (ever) to the galaxy were eventually foiled. Being Dark Council level is actually a big deal since it is clear from canonical revelation that Dark Council members are typically extremely competent practitioners of the dark side.

The TOR era does have a lot of powerful beings in it, but that does not mean that anyone noteworthy from the era is among the greatest in history. And if it does then being among the greatest in history frankly doesn't mean that much. Decimus has done nothing to back up such a claim.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dark Council members are logically (and evidently) among the most powerful practitioners of the dark side in the mythos.

Theres been over a thousand years of Dark Council members, and theres 12 at a time. For all of them to be counted as such would kind of dilute the concept of being among the best in the mythos, don't you agree?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Note that even the most powerful Jedi of PT era struggled against armies of droids and could effectively undermine them with external aid in most cases. Look no further then Yoda's performance on the first episode of latest TCW series.

I'm unsure of the relevance of this to the discussion of Decimus being named as a 'champion of battle'. I would expect any Dark Council member to be named a champion of battle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously? How many do you think have dominated armies on their own?

Except Decimus did not do that. According to your quote he 'lead from the front' indicating that he was leading an army. Breaking battle lines is not indicative of dominating armies, jesus. All that refers to is breaking the enemies formation. It literally just means that if the enemy is in a line, then you penetrate a portion of that line, therefore breaking the actual line.

All that quote means is that he was a great warrior who fought at the front lines and broke army formations. You are over-hyping him, as you are known to do.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I would try clarify the confusion involving this matter:-

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side represents some of the finest embodiment(s) of various ways of Sith:-

Sorzus Syn -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Alchemy
Darth Malgus -> embodiment of exemplary power and combat prowess
Darth Bane -> embodiment of exemplary Sith philosophy
Mother Talzin -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Sorcery
Darth Plagueis -> embodiment of exemplary scientific manipulation of the Force

Of-course, Sidious recognizes the fact that Malgus may have been rivaled by others in power and skill within the Sith Empire he served. However, he regraded Malgus as the greatest embodiment of power and combat prowess among the individuals he considered for his assessment involving Sith teachings.

Clear enough?

I think that you should have a look at this book.

I think you should read the book. Sidious only refers to the texts he uses as being from those who advanced the cause of the Sith and when talking about Malgus the only thing he really says about him is that he's 'a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage' and noting he's passed Malgus' notes on to Vader.

He never says that they are the embodiment of Sith aspects, in fact Talzin isn't even a Sith in the first place. He chapter only has to do with Nightsister magic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is safe to assume that Malgus is stronger and superior warrior then Bane, Vader and many other Sith whom Sidious had great deal of knowledge about.

No it isn't. Sidious' opinion does not carry that much weight.

Q99

Btw, on the whole 'more competitive era' thing- Revan came from a significantly less competitive era than TOR, yet he was more powerful than two of the TOR Empire's very best, Scourge and Nyriss.

The best of a moderately competitive era are often as strong or stronger than the majority of strong people from even the most competitive eras. Bane or even Kaan would be no pushover in the TOR era, just as Revan wasn't.

Several times it's ability to kill easily is mentioned. Cade threatens Talon with it and comments how easy it would be.

The key divider between Dark Transfer and mere Dark Healing is the ability to cross the lines of death. And, well, the offensive use is different as well, dark healing isn't good for that.

Cade intuitively could do Transfer and thus do what even top Dark Healing practitioners could not, even though they had greater medical knowledge.

One of the key prerequisites to this, and one not many other characters have, is shatterpoints. Healing shatterpoints, or putting the force into someone's shatterpoints and destroying them. All the little lines that keep a person together... that's how it kills. No biological person should be immune.

If Sidious had it in Dark Empire, he would've never had so much problem with his decaying body (or at least not nearly so soon), as Cade and Krayt both heal similarly subtle damage, to lesser or greater extents.

Where are you getting this from? Muur never compared Krayt and Vader (he did compare Krayt to 'Skywalker' at one point... and decided he'd much prefer Krayt's body. Probably talking Cade, but it's the only line he said that could be taken as a comparison of the two). I'd say Muur's healing on Vader would put him well above Malgus if he ever said it anyway... which, again, he didn't.

This is one thing that makes me doubt your arguments/conclusions- the making up of stuff. It comes across as bias.

Q99

The only fracture he took advantage of was the desire to rebuild worlds lost in the Vong war, and hijacking the restoration program to spread his plague. The political schisms of Caedus or the attempts made by the Abeloth didn't even factor in, they'd been long since healed and weren't even mentioned. The Jedi and the Alliance command no longer had a rift.

Replace 'not being able to' with 'not knowing or caring.'

Why would Krayt even care about the Dark Nest crisis or similar? Let the Jedi handle it and take casualties. He'll build his order.

Keep in mind plenty of powerful sith like the entire Rule of Two lineage and Vitiate worked in the the shadows til the time was right. Why not level the same criticism of Vitiate having no effect on the the Freedon Nadd uprising, the Exar Kun war and similar conflicts? Simple truth was Vitiate was off doing his own thing and didn't care. What matters is when he did care, that's when the impact was huge.

Btw, XoXaan is a 'Ms.', not a Mr., and one of Muur's equals from the Hundred Year Darkness.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats entirely speculative. It 'could' be a you say, but you've given no evidence that it actually is. As far as I know, its treated as a brand new Force power.
My observation is that Dark Transfer application is very similar to Dark Healing application. Both applications permit a Force-user to heal and harm.

Maybe the authors who contributed to legacy lore forgot about existence of Dark Healing application?

Also, how could ancient Sith Lord(s) teach Krayt to achieve mastery over Dark Transfer application without knowledge of its mechanics beforehand?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cade is the only one else to be known to possess the technique, and thus can be argued to know of a way to block it. So I would argue it probably does mean that.
Ancients had developed and mastered applications of similar nature so they may know a thing or two about countering these types of applications.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The TOR era does have a lot of powerful beings in it, but that does not mean that anyone noteworthy from the era is among the greatest in history. And if it does then being among the greatest in history frankly doesn't mean that much. Decimus has done nothing to back up such a claim.
TOR era witnessed not just co-existence of large number of powerful Force-users but some of the most powerful Force-users (ever) competing for supremacy among themselves. Sith alone numbered in millions and ferociously competed for supremacy amongst themselves. If Decimus managed to gain prominence in this kind of era then this is sufficient reason to acknowledge his extraordinary power and skill.

Decimus "have not been explored much" would be valid argument on your behalf but it is not wise to overlook the canonical hype surrounding him. The fact that he acquired a position in the Dark Council in an extraordinarily competitive era, successfully overlooked the sphere of military strategy for a while and was acknowledged as among the finest warriors, is enough to consider him among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Also, I am not personally hyping him; a canon book have. I don't understand your complain in this case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres been over a thousand years of Dark Council members, and theres 12 at a time. For all of them to be counted as such would kind of dilute the concept of being among the best in the mythos, don't you agree?
Sith Empire forged by Vitiate contained lot of Force-users at any given time (ranging from thousands to millions). Among these Force-users, only the strongest would typically land a position in the Dark Council and this count would not increase 12 at any given time. I understand that Vitiate set the quality bar too high but even the most powerful of his Empire are vastly outnumbered by lesser gifted Force-users on the whole on holistic level.

TSE may have witnessed hundreds of Dark Council members but this count is abysmal in comparison to enormous number of Force-users that have been part of galactic history throughout in different eras of the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm unsure of the relevance of this to the discussion of Decimus being named as a 'champion of battle'. I would expect any Dark Council member to be named a champion of battle.
Of-course! But Decimus is counted among the most renowned champions of battle within the book with few prominent rivals including Thanaton, Malgus and Marr.

Realistically, Decimus faced competition from millions of other Sith but few matched or exceeded him in power and skill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except Decimus did not do that. According to your quote he 'lead from the front' indicating that he was leading an army. Breaking battle lines is not indicative of dominating armies, jesus. All that refers to is breaking the enemies formation. It literally just means that if the enemy is in a line, then you penetrate a portion of that line, therefore breaking the actual line.

All that quote means is that he was a great warrior who fought at the front lines and broke army formations. You are over-hyping him, as you are known to do.
My focus had been on actions of Decimus and not the armies he led. He set examples for his followers during battles by breaking enemy formations with his own power. Try to imagine a lone individual disrupting formations of an army in battlefield; it certainly seems like a big deal. Perhaps a big budget medium is required to depict the awesomeness of this level of fighting potential.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you should read the book. Sidious only refers to the texts he uses as being from those who advanced the cause of the Sith and when talking about Malgus the only thing he really says about him is that he's 'a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage' and noting he's passed Malgus' notes on to Vader.

He never says that they are the embodiment of Sith aspects, in fact Talzin isn't even a Sith in the first place. He chapter only has to do with Nightsister magic.
The book in question here represents finest embodiment(s) of dark side practitioners in different aspects of Sith philosophy ranging from Alchemy to Sorcery. Among these embodiment(s), Malgus represents an exemplary warrior with unparalleled combat feats and the capability to channel power of the dark side in highly effective ways. All of the predecessors of Sidious featured in the book are powerful Force-users but their specialties differ or have contributed to progress of Sith philosophy in its different aspects.

It is not like as if Sidious believes that Bane sucks in combat. However, his personal assessment is that Malgus was the finest warrior among all the Sith he knew well. Malgus's knowledge of the dark side and combat prowess impressed and intrigued Sidious enough to make it possible for the latter to further hone his own dark side mastery and also inspire/help Vader with such information.

Try to follow the point: each powerful dark side practitioner (featured in the book) served to advance Sidious's understanding of Sith philosophy in its different forms.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't. Sidious' opinion does not carry that much weight.
If Bane was in place of Malgus, would you have still held this opinion?

The Merchant

Heck Darth Venamis is stated by Lord Plagueis that if he existed during Bane's time he'd do incredibly well. So being from a competitive era doesn't mean much, just tougher fodder I'm guessing. Also I agree with Nephtys here, saying that Decimus solo'd armies isn't true, it's just a way of saying that he was a tactical genius.

Mizukage Yoda

I doubt he solo'd armies. That feat goes to Lord Marr.

XRKun

Originally posted by Nephthys
thumb up

Although I think the gap is a bit larger.

This is arguable. But no doubt Bane is stronger than Mr. Malgy

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, on the whole 'more competitive era' thing- Revan came from a significantly less competitive era than TOR, yet he was more powerful than two of the TOR Empire's very best, Scourge and Nyriss.
I regard Revan as an exceptional case because he acquired unique mastery of the Force by all accounts which granted him advantage over majority of other Force-users who were more specialized then him. More valid analogy would be that of Meetra who was also prominent like Revan and she still stood no chance against a lone Dark Council member even after contending with powerful and dangerous Sith Lords such as Nihilus, Sion and Traya who collectively wiped out the Jedi Order. In-fact, Meetra is evidently a more accomplished warrior then lets say Wyrrlok and even Krayt and she was still eclipsed by paragons of the TSE. Therefore, I caution you about using Revan as an analogy to advance your case. In-fact, even the mighty Revan failed to click during Malgus's time when he had his shot (this may change based on the fact that Revan's story is not yet complete but we have to work with known information at the moment).

Originally posted by Q99
The best of a moderately competitive era are often as strong or stronger than the majority of strong people from even the most competitive eras. Bane or even Kaan would be no pushover in the TOR era, just as Revan wasn't.
Actually no! Bane may do well in many eras but I doubt that even he can do much in lets say Malgus's time or within TSE. Heck, Star Wars: Darth Plagueis asserts that Venamis could do well in Bane's era but he failed in Plagueis's era.

Kaan would be a mook in the TSE at any given point; Brotherhood of Darkness represents a decaying Sith Order. Bane's assessment about ancients confirm that they were vastly superior to BOD Sith and I would trust his judgement in this regard.

Originally posted by Q99
Several times it's ability to kill easily is mentioned. Cade threatens Talon with it and comments how easy it would be.
Its effectiveness may vary depending upon the capabilities of the opponent in question. Extremely talented practitioners of the Force are known to form special protective bubbles around them which can make them virtually invincible to most kinds of attacks as long as the bubble lasts or can be held up.

Originally posted by Q99
The key divider between Dark Transfer and mere Dark Healing is the ability to cross the lines of death. And, well, the offensive use is different as well, dark healing isn't good for that.
What makes you think that Dark Healing isn't good for offensive purposes?

Originally posted by Q99
Cade intuitively could do Transfer and thus do what even top Dark Healing practitioners could not, even though they had greater medical knowledge.

One of the key prerequisites to this, and one not many other characters have, is shatterpoints. Healing shatterpoints, or putting the force into someone's shatterpoints and destroying them. All the little lines that keep a person together... that's how it kills. No biological person should be immune.
Talented Force-users are known to develop some level of shatterpoint abilities as they are able to perceive fault-lines in both inanimate objects and other individuals and exploit them. This is actually seldom noted and acknowledged. While this talent is beneficial during combat situations, it still does not guarantees victory over relatively more powerful and talented adversaries. Satele was gifted in these aspects but she could still not defeat some of the other powerful Force-users in her time.

Originally posted by Q99
If Sidious had it in Dark Empire, he would've never had so much problem with his decaying body (or at least not nearly so soon), as Cade and Krayt both heal similarly subtle damage, to lesser or greater extents.
It is not necessary for Sidious to be well-versed in all aspects of the Force manipulation. In contrast to him, Vitiate comfortably prevented decay of his bodies with his mastery of the dark side. I also recall that Revan possessed such advanced healing abilities that he could heal even life-threatening injuries within a short span of time without use of medical aid.

Originally posted by Q99
Where are you getting this from? Muur never compared Krayt and Vader (he did compare Krayt to 'Skywalker' at one point... and decided he'd much prefer Krayt's body. Probably talking Cade, but it's the only line he said that could be taken as a comparison of the two). I'd say Muur's healing on Vader would put him well above Malgus if he ever said it anyway... which, again, he didn't.
I am not asserting that Muur directly compared Vader and Krayt but he assessed both and praised Vader more.

Also, what do you mean by Muur's healing on Vader?

Originally posted by Q99
This is one thing that makes me doubt your arguments/conclusions- the making up of stuff. It comes across as bias.
We learn from each other, no?

I never claimed to be an expert on Legacy era stuff because I do not read this stuff to be honest. big grin

Originally posted by Q99
The only fracture he took advantage of was the desire to rebuild worlds lost in the Vong war, and hijacking the restoration program to spread his plague. The political schisms of Caedus or the attempts made by the Abeloth didn't even factor in, they'd been long since healed and weren't even mentioned. The Jedi and the Alliance command no longer had a rift.
Well, if those worlds had not been lost in the Vong war then what?

Originally posted by Q99
Replace 'not being able to' with 'not knowing or caring.'

Why would Krayt even care about the Dark Nest crisis or similar? Let the Jedi handle it and take casualties. He'll build his order.

Keep in mind plenty of powerful sith like the entire Rule of Two lineage and Vitiate worked in the the shadows til the time was right. Why not level the same criticism of Vitiate having no effect on the the Freedon Nadd uprising, the Exar Kun war and similar conflicts? Simple truth was Vitiate was off doing his own thing and didn't care. What matters is when he did care, that's when the impact was huge.
This is some counterargument now. I appreciate this line of thinking. However, "not being able to" reasoning is as much valid as "not knowing or caring" reasoning. Krayt was possibly not ready or strong enough or outmatched by opposition to make an impact during the events in which he was not active.

By the way, Vitiate is responsible for several destructive wars:-

1. Mandalorian Wars
2. Jedi Civil War
3. Sith Triumvirate
4. Great Galactic War

After the failure of Kun, Vitiate stepped-up his game.

On a side note: Wars/conflicts/betrayals result in the fall of even the mightiest.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, XoXaan is a 'Ms.', not a Mr., and one of Muur's equals from the Hundred Year Darkness.
Impressive.

Originally posted by XRKun
But no doubt Bane is stronger than Mr. Malgy
Based on what?

Q99

Sure, if you put up a force barrier to prevent him from touching you, that prevents it from being applied for a time. It does require contact to use.

Btw, like, everyone in Legacy knows that move. Cade's used force barrier to survive being in the middle of a giant explosion (Krayt still got him), as has Darth Talon (Krayt's Hand), Darth Azard (one of Krayt's admirals but not as high as his inner circle) and the Imperial Knight Tries Sinde use it too (one of the stronger Imperial Knights, but below Draco). To give you an idea of the level of skill that's floating around in this time period.

I disagree- he failed in Plagueis's era, but only against Plagueis, one of the strongest force users in the galaxy at the time and only slightly weaker than Palpatine would become. That doesn't mean he'd have trouble against the wide majority of Sith in TSE. Just because one fails against the very best hardly makes one weak when compared to sith who, themselves, are hardly the very best. Someone who's a tough fight against Plagueis is likely stronger than the majority of Dark Councilors.

And the Brotherhood of Darkness was decaying, but that does not mean they were lacking in all respects. They were at the tail end of a millennia of war, no-one ever said their skill in lightsabers was lacking, and while the Sith trained by the brotherhood were trained more in sabers than the secrets of the dark side, the leaders were powerful sith who honed their skills as rival warlords. Even as much as Bane disparaged his methods, he did admit that Kaan personally was not weak, and the number of sith he felt were not weak of that era could probably be counted on three fingers.

Again, where are you getting this from? He spoke a single line of praise of Vader- "This one is strong and willing- he deserves the talisman!". He spends more time egging Morne on to die.

With Krayt, he both greeted him as one great sith to another, and described him as 'riff with the dark side.'

Part of why Krayt wanted the talisman- Muur is an *awesome* good healer, good enough that he could heal Krayt's growths (how Krayt learned how to), where no Sith healer or captured Jedi healer was capable- even Cade didn't have the skill (the raw power, yes, but not the skill).

Muur can heal a good amount of damage in a host body. Maybe not completely, but improve Vader's condition? Certainly.

I covered this before.

You mean the guy who started forming an order literally 7 years before (meaning at that time, his most skilled apprentice would've only had 7 years of training at best) might not feel he was yet up to taking on Luke Skywalker and his order of badasses who were by that point quite war hardened veterans? And who'd already defeated Palpatine twice?

Vitiate would've gotten his ass beat if he'd stepped up with that little preparation.

Vitiate spent 1,300 years in preparation making his order and empire. Krayt spent 100 years to make his order. I don't think there's any room to criticize 'not getting involved' time there.

You know, the first three of those were all basically the same plot (manipulate Mandalorians to attack Jedi, corrupt strong Jedi and unleash), and 3 especially is just a continuation of 2, it just happened to play out that others carried on after Revan.

The time separation between 3 and 4 was longer than Krayt's entire preparation, btw.

Also notably, in Krayt's one war, he conquered more of the galaxy in his one than Vitiate in four. Vitiate's maximum expansion was a mere half the galaxy, while Krayt had 80% of his.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by Nephthys
It makes me sexually excited when you refer to me as your friend.
Our relationshipfriendship is proceeding as hopedexpected.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, if you put up a force barrier to prevent him from touching you, that prevents it from being applied for a time. It does require contact to use.

Btw, like, everyone in Legacy knows that move. Cade's used force barrier to survive being in the middle of a giant explosion (Krayt still got him), as has Darth Talon (Krayt's Hand), Darth Azard (one of Krayt's admirals but not as high as his inner circle) and the Imperial Knight Tries Sinde use it too (one of the stronger Imperial Knights, but below Draco). To give you an idea of the level of skill that's floating around in this time period.
Malgus can not just form powerful protective bubble around himself to bolster his defensive prospects but can also bombard his opponents with lethal Force powers simultaneously. His Force maelstrom talent would be decent enough to overwhelm Krayt and grant him the necessary opening to take his opponent out without much risk.

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side depicts Malgus overwhelming/killing multiple opponents simultaneously with his Force maelstrom talent with ease.

Originally posted by Q99
I disagree- he failed in Plagueis's era, but only against Plagueis, one of the strongest force users in the galaxy at the time and only slightly weaker than Palpatine would become. That doesn't mean he'd have trouble against the wide majority of Sith in TSE. Just because one fails against the very best hardly makes one weak when compared to sith who, themselves, are hardly the very best. Someone who's a tough fight against Plagueis is likely stronger than the majority of Dark Councilors.
You are overreaching again and underestimating the standards set by Vitiate for the paragons of his Empire:

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a month, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.*

Now you realize the sheer intensity of the competition that took place in later years of TSE?

This competition was so severe that even "supremely powerful" Sith Lords such as Thanaton could fall in it. The SWTOR Sith Inquisitor story represents this ground reality of TSE.

Dark Council members are not to be underestimated even in comparison to the likes of Plagueis. I won't be surprised by the possibility of some Dark Council members being capable of defeating even Plagueis in single combat.

Also, if a Force-user showed signs of challenging the supremacy of Sith Emperor and was too powerful to be taken out by an Emperor's personal agent, an Imperial Strike Team was often dispatched to eliminate such a threat. Its not easy to become a paragon of TSE by any stretch of imagination; in-fact, TSE presented the most hazardous environment for Sith to compete for power in all times.

Originally posted by Q99
And the Brotherhood of Darkness was decaying, but that does not mean they were lacking in all respects. They were at the tail end of a millennia of war, no-one ever said their skill in lightsabers was lacking, and while the Sith trained by the brotherhood were trained more in sabers than the secrets of the dark side, the leaders were powerful sith who honed their skills as rival warlords. Even as much as Bane disparaged his methods, he did admit that Kaan personally was not weak, and the number of sith he felt were not weak of that era could probably be counted on three fingers.
Kaan was stated to be no match for (POD) Bane. Do the math.

The only warrior of note in BOD was Kas'im.

Originally posted by Q99
Again, where are you getting this from? He spoke a single line of praise of Vader- "This one is strong and willing- he deserves the talisman!". He spends more time egging Morne on to die.

With Krayt, he both greeted him as one great sith to another, and described him as 'riff with the dark side.'
Provide complete information about his praise of Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
Part of why Krayt wanted the talisman- Muur is an *awesome* good healer, good enough that he could heal Krayt's growths (how Krayt learned how to), where no Sith healer or captured Jedi healer was capable- even Cade didn't have the skill (the raw power, yes, but not the skill).

Muur can heal a good amount of damage in a host body. Maybe not completely, but improve Vader's condition? Certainly.

I covered this before.
You think that Muur could reconstruct Vader's natural body to an extent that the latter would not need his cybernetic suit?

Originally posted by Q99
You mean the guy who started forming an order literally 7 years before (meaning at that time, his most skilled apprentice would've only had 7 years of training at best) might not feel he was yet up to taking on Luke Skywalker and his order of badasses who were by that point quite war hardened veterans? And who'd already defeated Palpatine twice?

Vitiate would've gotten his ass beat if he'd stepped up with that little preparation.
Seven years of Sith training is not good enough? You are overlooking the fact that Krayt had acquired proper Jedi training and reasonable combat experience prior to his Sith training.

Vitiate conquered an entire planet by the age of 13, killing thousands in the process without formal training:

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate.*

One can only imagine the power Vitiate wielded as Sith Emperor. No wonder, he ruled over billions of Sith with iron first.

You do not compare the likes of Krayt with Vitiate. The former seems to be humbled in this comparison.

Originally posted by Q99
Vitiate spent 1,300 years in preparation making his order and empire. Krayt spent 100 years to make his order. I don't think there's any room to criticize 'not getting involved' time there.
Vitiate's situation is vastly different to that of Krayt's. Do not mistake Vitiate's patience for lack of personal capability. He was pwning Sith Lords left and right as a child.

The Great Hyperspace War turned out be a disastrous experience for Sith because of infighting and the Jedi wanted to exterminate Sith. Vitiate had to begin from scratch, reform the Sith remnants in utmost fashion, create a galactic superpower in secrecy, and prepare for his ultimate plan to transform himself in to godlike being. This is why he took his time, even though he did began to interfere in the galactic affairs after the failure of Kun.

Originally posted by Q99
You know, the first three of those were all basically the same plot (manipulate Mandalorians to attack Jedi, corrupt strong Jedi and unleash), and 3 especially is just a continuation of 2, it just happened to play out that others carried on after Revan.
Agreed

Originally posted by Q99
The time separation between 3 and 4 was longer than Krayt's entire preparation, btw.
Thanks to Revan's influence.

Originally posted by Q99
Also notably, in Krayt's one war, he conquered more of the galaxy in his one than Vitiate in four. Vitiate's maximum expansion was a mere half the galaxy, while Krayt had 80% of his.
This is illogical way to compare galactic events. Vitiate's military campaign is vastly different from that of Krayt's in nature and scope.

Krayt started a civil war within a fractured Republic and took advantage of it, if I am not mistaken. Its not like as if Krayt had forged his own Empire in secrecy and unleashed it upon a well-prepared and healthy Republic.

In contrast, Vitiate attacked a heavily reformed and healthy Republic along with the Jedi Order at its peak strength in direct fashion (like USA attacking China) with his Empire based assets. In-fact, Vitiate would have finished off the Republic and the Jedi Order after the Sacking of Coruscant but Revan prevented this from happening, resulting in Darth Malgus to plan his rebellion and granting sufficient time to the Jedi Order to dispatch incredibly powerful agents to eradicate the threat of Sith Emperor himself.

When the fallen Jedi known as Darth Revan turned on his former allies and set out to conquer the galaxy in the Jedi Civil War, his unifiied Sith armies easily crushed the Republic's fractious forces in almost every encounter. The Republic's reliance on the Jedi also brought disaster, as most of the Order was wiped out over the course of the conflict. The timely redemption of Darth Revan himself saved the Republic before it could be completely obliterated, but the lesson was clear: The Republic military needed to evolve if it was to survive the conflicts of the future.

As the Republic rebuilt its forces in the decades after the war, those in command went to great lengths to promote unity and camaraderie, Ranks, uniforms, an equipment were standardized as much as possible. Recruitment and training programs became universal, with unit memberships and starship crews intentionally mixed to prevent divisions by species or homeworld. Troops learned to fight alongside Jedi as they always had, but they also trained to fight without any Jedi at all.

These initiatives went on for decades, with more than a few mistakes and adjustments made. But in the end after millennia of scrabbling and inefficiency, the Republic gained a fighting force worthy of its lofty ideals.*

-------
*Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Q99

Oh, Krayt's plenty good at power absorption, he should be able to block that just fine, and even his second-tier commanders can throw up a bubble so it's not like he couldn't do that in return.

Sure, and we've seen despite this, several dark councilors are not all that good in a fight, holding their position via politics, and even their best like Nyress are weaker than Revan, who came from a low competition era.

Also, you're assuming the completely-hand-picked-for-power-in-an-order-that-has-two-enemy-orders-to-deal-with One Sith don't hold their members to very high standards.

"A meeting- one on one. Two Great Sith Lords- alone."

"When we are joined, I will heal you. Your power will be mine and mine will be yours. Together we will dominate the galaxy."

(To Draco, who's trying to get the talisman for Emperor Fel, thinking it can be contained) "Pitiful Imperial slave! You want the talisman for your emperor! He is not worthy of it! It is a Sith I desire, one rife with the power of the dark side! After I slay you and your minions, I will impale the Jedi and make Skywalker and his lackeys my rakghoul slaves. Then I will TAKE Krayt's mortal body as my own."

To Morne (trying to convince her to let him take over)- "Face in inevitable and surrender, Jedi. Alone against Darth Krayt, you would fail."

He's really not the gushy-about-others type. His praise pretty much consists of wanting others as a body smile

His limbs would still be cybernetic, but fix a lot of the burns and damage, yes. Perhaps even the lungs.

Then why are you assuming Krayt's patience, during which he was building an order, is something different?

Vitiate is stronger than Krayt, which is of course no surprise as he's stronger than most everyone, but the rest of the Sith in the era are no Vitiate either. If Krayt was around during that time, he'd easily be one of the strongest.

Also, Vitiate personal capability doesn't change he'd get his ass handed to him by Luke and his order with so little prep. 7 years is not enough time to raise much in the way of minions, and Luke is stronger than the Hero of Tython by that point, let alone Luke and his closest Jedi.

If Vitiate was in Krayt's position with Krayt's resources and attacked when you wanted Krayt to attack, he would lose, badly. I will even note that Abeloth is even stronger than Vitiate in direct combat, and see how that got her.

Keep in mind, you were talking 'impact', not how it was done. This is your criteria here. Impact, Krayt's was huge. His method worked.

And Vitiate did try a civil war himself, notably through Revan. That wasn't as successful as Krayt's either.

Q99

Ironically even though it's hand selected rather than 'survival of the fittest,' Krayt's Inner Circle is the only Sith leadership council I know with no weak combatants who got in for political reasons. Every single one of them was selected- or even raised- to be strong.

And he's spent a century and a half gathering Sith knowledge to make them as strong as possible. Starting with the holocron of XoXaan, but picking up more whereever he could fine it. Bane era, KotoR era, old Empire era, Palpatine era, and so on.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My observation is that Dark Transfer application is very similar to Dark Healing application. Both applications permit a Force-user to heal and harm.

Maybe the authors who contributed to legacy lore forgot about existence of Dark Healing application?

Also, how could ancient Sith Lord(s) teach Krayt to achieve mastery over Dark Transfer application without knowledge of its mechanics beforehand?

Just like how Nihilus' technique is similar to a standard force drain, but isn't the same technique, perhaps.

Krayt learned the technique from Cade didn't he? I wasn't aware that he was taught it by ancient Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ancients had developed and mastered applications of similar nature so they may know a thing or two about countering these types of applications.

That could be argued, but without evidence I wouldn't buy it personally.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
TOR era witnessed not just co-existence of large number of powerful Force-users but some of the most powerful Force-users (ever) competing for supremacy among themselves. Sith alone numbered in millions and ferociously competed for supremacy amongst themselves. If Decimus managed to gain prominence in this kind of era then this is sufficient reason to acknowledge his extraordinary power and skill.

Decimus "have not been explored much" would be valid argument on your behalf but it is not wise to overlook the canonical hype surrounding him. The fact that he acquired a position in the Dark Council in an extraordinarily competitive era, successfully overlooked the sphere of military strategy for a while and was acknowledged as among the finest warriors, is enough to consider him among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Also, I am not personally hyping him; a canon book have. I don't understand your complain in this case.

Yes, I know. I just disagree with that logic that Decimus MUST be among the best ever just to make it onto the Dark Council. Just because there were millions of Sith does not mean that the best of them MUST be super badasses. He is not directly beating them all or anything, he'd just been able to become more prominent than them and is likely among the best in the Empire. Being the best out of millions does not automatically make you among the best in all of history. Without actual evidence for his abilities that would be a completely premature assessment. You are placing too much importance of the Council.

You are overhyping him, by arguing that a character with almost nothing to his name is among the best ever. Merely being on the Dark Council makes you good, obviously a significantly powerful combatant. It doesn't make you an Anakin Skywalker, a Yoda or a Mace Windu.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith Empire forged by Vitiate contained lot of Force-users at any given time (ranging from thousands to millions). Among these Force-users, only the strongest would typically land a position in the Dark Council and this count would not increase 12 at any given time. I understand that Vitiate set the quality bar too high but even the most powerful of his Empire are vastly outnumbered by lesser gifted Force-users on the whole on holistic level.

TSE may have witnessed hundreds of Dark Council members but this count is abysmal in comparison to enormous number of Force-users that have been part of galactic history throughout in different eras of the mythos.

I understand that, but that doesn't make your argument valid. When I hear 'among the best in history' I think of Darth Bane, Dooku or Darth Nox. Even Maul. I do not think of some random Dark Council member who'd done nothing on-screen to earn the name.

If I was one of the best writers alive today, that would not automatically make me comparable to histories finest authors. You could still say that as a stand out of my age, I would be technically counted among them. If we take it that broudly though, the title ceases to be impressive. No-one is going to be impressed by the 1000th best Sith, when on this forum we are discussing the absolute top of the mythos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of-course! But Decimus is counted among the most renowned champions of battle within the book with few prominent rivals including Thanaton, Malgus and Marr.

Realistically, Decimus faced competition from millions of other Sith but few matched or exceeded him in power and skill.

Good for him.

Which makes him better than those millions. No more.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My focus had been on actions of Decimus and not the armies he led. He set examples for his followers during battles by breaking enemy formations with his own power. Try to imagine a lone individual disrupting formations of an army in battlefield; it certainly seems like a big deal. Perhaps a big budget medium is required to depict the awesomeness of this level of fighting potential.

It might seem like a big deal to you, but not to me. I'd expect any top Sith Lord to be capable of doing that if he has an army behind him. Just because he defeated a bunch of soldiers doesn't make him anything special. I wouldn't expect high numbers of mooks to matter to a Sith who is among the best of the era. And even then, the quote doesn't even imply that. There are numerous ways you can disrupt formations without being a flat out combat monster.

I'd laugh if it turns out the Smuggler class defeated him though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The book in question here represents finest embodiment(s) of dark side practitioners in different aspects of Sith philosophy ranging from Alchemy to Sorcery. Among these embodiment(s), Malgus represents an exemplary warrior with unparalleled combat feats and the capability to channel power of the dark side in highly effective ways. All of the predecessors of Sidious featured in the book are powerful Force-users but their specialties differ or have contributed to progress of Sith philosophy in its different aspects.

Malgus' contribution to the book has nothing to do with his combat abilities, outside of the Force Maelstrom (which is in Sidious' section, so its not like Malgus himself talks about it). His section is just his wartime journal. BANE is the one who details combat techniques and lightsaber styles. Rather telling that he is the one Sidious chooses to allow to talk about Force powers and Sith combat, don't you think? wink

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is not like as if Sidious believes that Bane sucks in combat. However, his personal assessment is that Malgus was the finest warrior among all the Sith he knew well.

No it isn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus's knowledge of the dark side and combat prowess impressed and intrigued Sidious enough to make it possible for the latter to further hone his own dark side mastery and also inspire/help Vader with such information.

Yes. Which is good for him. Impressing Sidious doesn;t make you the best ever. Assajj Ventress impressed him, so what?

And Sidious gave it to Vader becuase of how Malgus mirrored him with his Twilek girlfriend and injuries and as an example to Vader by how Malgus improved despite that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Try to follow the point: each powerful dark side practitioner (featured in the book) served to advance Sidious's understanding of Sith philosophy in its different forms.

Legend, I can follow your points well enough. You don't need to get condescending. Just because Sidious drew inspiration from them does mean 'OMG THEY ARE THE BEST EVER!' Sidious didn't fellate Vitiates abilities in the book, does that mean hes not as good as them? Is Malgus better in a fight? Is Talzin better at sorcery?

No. Malgus is a notable warrior. Talzin is a notable sorceress. Syn is a notable alchemist. They are not the best ever just because Sidious complied a freaking book from their notes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Bane was in place of Malgus, would you have still held this opinion?

Yes. Sidious' opinion is a nice nod to Malgus' prowess, but no more important than Bane's opinion about Revan in my mind.

Petrus

But other than Sidious commenting on Malgus prowess as a warrior, the guy also has some freakish feats to back it up. He's imo a bit above Vader.

Nephthys

Of course. Malgus is an excellent Sith. The Vader to Vitiates Sidious. But its because of his actual feats, not just Sidious' opinion. Legend is putting far too much weight on such statements AGAIN.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Oh, Krayt's plenty good at power absorption, he should be able to block that just fine, and even his second-tier commanders can throw up a bubble so it's not like he couldn't do that in return.
Speculations are not going to help your argument in a debate with me. Malgus is known to reach oneness like condition with the dark side and his effectiveness with his dark side abilities gets bolstered accordingly. Malgus have history of literally manhandling other powerhouses when he gets in the zone with his anger.

You seem to have no idea about how destructive Force Maelstrom application is; Sidious could conjure up Force Storm Wormholes by extrapolating this application. The effectiveness of some Sith applications depends upon the anger of a dark side practitioner. Malgus is known to get in the zone with anger and he is virtually unstoppable at that moment. Sidious have also been enormously potent because he learned to harness his anger to extreme levels; he even wrote a book about this.

Their is virtually nothing that Krayt can dish out that Malgus does not have a counter against. In-fact, Malgus is most likely to overwhelm Krayt in his zone condition if nothing else works.

Krayt's only impressive victory is over Wyyrlok who doesn't seems to be a standout in comparison to paragons of TOR era. You need more then this showing to make a case for Krayt to suggest that he can give Malgus decent fight, let alone edge him out.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, and we've seen despite this, several dark councilors are not all that good in a fight, holding their position via politics, and even their best like Nyress are weaker than Revan, who came from a low competition era.
This is a misconception; Dark Council members are typically the most powerful Sith in the galaxy. If a supposedly non-worthy individual somehow lands a position in the Dark Council, he or she is eventually knocked out by a more worthy successor or vice versa. In the end, only the finest Sith manage to last long in a Dark Council; Sith who are not just remarkably powerful in the ways of the Force but also smart and efficient.

And what makes you assume that Nyriss represents the pinnacle of Dark Council members? I don't think that the author ranked her or declared her to be the strongest Dark Council member even in her era alone. However, even she seems to be superior warrior then the likes of Krayt and Wyrrlok since she dominated two (major) heavyweights without much difficulty in a duel. Her failure against Revan in no way or form suggests that she would falter in similar manner against other remarkably powerful Force-users (under right circumstances) who are not Revan.

Revan is a remarkably powerful Force-user by all accounts (I think that you underestimate him a lot since you assume that being below Revan implies that such a Force-user is also weaker then your favorites from legacy era; you need to let go of this delusion); Revan is not incredibly dangerous because of his raw power but rather due to his exceptional command of the Force. He is known to manipulate the Force in ways like most cannot and he can be incredibly potent with his unique talents (he managed to combine the positives of both the light and dark philosophies in a masterful way and it is implied that he would have reformed the Jedi Order in ways like no other, if his teachings were accepted by the Jedi Council of his time but this was not to be unfortunately). Revan versus Nyriss is a complex matter; Revan put Nyriss in a disadvantaged position with his Force Mastery when he formed a loop between them with the latter's power because the latter could was already preoccupied with an attacking action. It can be argued that Revan is superior to Nyriss in defensive aspects of the Force at least but I am not so sure about his supposed superiority in raw power aspect over her. Sometimes, techniques alone (if supported with sufficient raw power) can be the ultimate deciding factor in a confrontation.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, you're assuming the completely-hand-picked-for-power-in-an-order-that-has-two-enemy-orders-to-deal-with One Sith don't hold their members to very high standards.
I never claimed that Sith of Krayt's order are typically weak. However, cutthroat competition ensures automatic cure of the weak. Vitiate encouraged internal competition among his followers for some solid reasons. He created a brilliant setup which would be run by his followers and cutthroat internal competition would ensure that finest individuals would automatically get the opportunity to run his setup.

Originally posted by Q99
"A meeting- one on one. Two Great Sith Lords- alone."

"When we are joined, I will heal you. Your power will be mine and mine will be yours. Together we will dominate the galaxy."

(To Draco, who's trying to get the talisman for Emperor Fel, thinking it can be contained) "Pitiful Imperial slave! You want the talisman for your emperor! He is not worthy of it! It is a Sith I desire, one rife with the power of the dark side! After I slay you and your minions, I will impale the Jedi and make Skywalker and his lackeys my rakghoul slaves. Then I will TAKE Krayt's mortal body as my own."

To Morne (trying to convince her to let him take over)- "Face in inevitable and surrender, Jedi. Alone against Darth Krayt, you would fail."

He's really not the gushy-about-others type. His praise pretty much consists of wanting others as a body smile

I don't think that "rife with the power of the dark side" comment is such a big deal. This is a common way to describe a Sith Lord. Sith Lords are expected to be powerful practitioners of the dark side and they have their importance accordingly.

Muur actually noted Vader's great strength and commented on it accordingly when they met. Vader is possibly stronger then Krayt as well, it seems.

Originally posted by Q99
His limbs would still be cybernetic, but fix a lot of the burns and damage, yes. Perhaps even the lungs.
Weren't most of the Vader's injuries adequately treated before he was fitted with a cybernetic suit? This suit was necessary because it served as the life-support system for Vader and their was no other alternative available to Sidious for him. I don't think that much could be done further about Vader unless Muur could actually reconstruct lost parts of his natural body (T-1000 style) and permanently free him from reliance on a cybernetic suit to function.

Originally posted by Q99
Then why are you assuming Krayt's patience, during which he was building an order, is something different?
Krayt's inability to undermine opposition more impressive then Wyyrlok is the focal point. If he as powerful as you claim him to be, then show me an example which solidifies your standing on this matter. According to you, Krayt is superior to likes of Vader, Bane, Malgus and vice versa; prove this, if you really can.

Originally posted by Q99
Vitiate is stronger than Krayt, which is of course no surprise as he's stronger than most everyone, but the rest of the Sith in the era are no Vitiate either. If Krayt was around during that time, he'd easily be one of the strongest.
We don't know how Krayt would perform in lets say time of Malgus' however, available evidence suggests that he will have lot of worthy rivals and their is a possibility of him getting routed early on during the cutthroat competition, should he make it out alive from a Sith Academy in the first place. Do not forget the fact that it took Krayt considerable time to become powerful enough to make an impact on a vulnerable galaxy by himself; circumstances favored his rise as well. He benefited from generosity of the Jedi several times; Obi-Wan could have killed him. Heck, Luke could have killed him, if he wanted to. However, the mighty True Sith would not have been so generous with him.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Also, Vitiate personal capability doesn't change he'd get his ass handed to him by Luke and his order with so little prep. 7 years is not enough time to raise much in the way of minions, and Luke is stronger than the Hero of Tython by that point, let alone Luke and his closest Jedi.
We don't actually know if Luke is better then HoT or not. Force based feats wise, Luke does have this comparison in his favor but he does not outguns HoT holistically.

The leadership of LTOS gave even (prime) Luke trouble, forcing him to flee at one point after flooring him with FL. In contrast, Vitiate crushed the most powerful (Golden era) Sith Lord in his homeworld like a putty. Do the math.

By the way, how well was Luke coping with the dark side environment of Dromund Kaas when he landed on this planet?

Originally posted by Q99
If Vitiate was in Krayt's position with Krayt's resources and attacked when you wanted Krayt to attack, he would lose, badly. I will even note that Abeloth is even stronger than Vitiate in direct combat, and see how that got her.
Read this:

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more than a brilliant strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.*

Abeloth isn't actually superior combatant then Vitiate; she is rather reckless and miscalculating. And Vitiate have counter to all kinds of moves of Abeloth since he could exist in both materialistic and spiritual realms and his mastery of the dark side trumps that of Krayt:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by the arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already on the precipice of the dark side. It took a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

Revan was eventually captured by the Jedi who suppressed his memories and restored him to the light side, sending him to defeat Malak. In the aftermath of the horrific conflict Revan began to recover his memories, and realized that the Sith Emperor was still hiding in the galaxy's unexplored regions. He set out alone to stop him once again... and never returned. Centuries later, the Empire invaded Republic space, still led by the seemingly-immortal Sith Emperor.*

Your assumptions are amusing. In-fact, Vitiate can give Abeloth more trouble then all of the Force-users put together whom she actually confronted. Heck, Vitiate have the option to transform other Force-users such as Jedi and Sith to his minions and unleash them upon Abeloth to undermine her eventually along with his personal aid. On top of this, Vitiate is a mastermind and he would rather be very calculative about how to contend with threat of Abeloth. So don't foolishly assume that Vitiate would fail to do better then Krayt in the latter's time period.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind, you were talking 'impact', not how it was done. This is your criteria here. Impact, Krayt's was huge. His method worked.
Well, Krayt was a strategist of some sorts and waited out formidable opposition to dial down before he decided to act himself. Of-course, his impact would have been great in such a time period.

Originally posted by Q99
And Vitiate did try a civil war himself, notably through Revan. That wasn't as successful as Krayt's either.
Really?

Every canon source suggests that Jedi Civil War brought the Republic and the Jedi Order to brink of extinction. You need to stop underestimating TOR era developments.

Originally posted by Q99
Ironically even though it's hand selected rather than 'survival of the fittest,' Krayt's Inner Circle is the only Sith leadership council I know with no weak combatants who got in for political reasons. Every single one of them was selected- or even raised- to be strong.

And he's spent a century and a half gathering Sith knowledge to make them as strong as possible. Starting with the holocron of XoXaan, but picking up more whereever he could fine it. Bane era, KotoR era, old Empire era, Palpatine era, and so on.
Vitiate's Dark Council members are still more impressive then these.

Want me to enlighten you with some examples?

Q99

Oh yea, it was bad. The Republic was not reduced to a roving fleet operating in secret, though. The Jedi were hurt worse in the KotoR era than the Legacy era, the Republic was hurt worse in the Legacy era.

It also took multiple wars to reduce the Jedi so low, and the lowest was under the Triumvirate, not Vitiate. The Jedi efforts to replenish numbers fast after Exar Kun, resulted in them making some foolish mistakes like allowing independent training on other worlds, resulting in the Jedi Covenant, causing an internal conflict costing Jedi shortly before the Mandalorian war, which then depleted them more. Follow by Revan, followed by the Triumvirate.

And then in the TOR era itself, the Jedi and Republic successfully held half the galaxy, ironically getting no-where as near to the edge as they did during the KotoR era. Which I guess goes to show, coups and civil wars beat outside conquest for getting things done.

Actually, he didn't wait for the opposition to dial down much to speak of. Things got more stable and the Jedi more plentiful.

No, what he waited for was for his forces to dial up and for an opportunity to throw the galaxy against the Jedi. His plan was based on him making the One Sith ready, he didn't wait for an exterior conflict to make an opportunity or for the Jedi to get complacent (the Jedi, in fact, were very much more prepared for Sith than, say, the Clone Wars Jedi were. Even when things turned against them they had contingencies ready).

No, I'm pretty familiar. And more specifically, some of the Dark Council members are more impressive. Others are not.

Darth Wyyrlok, were he in the TOR era, would have no problem taking and holding a senior seat in the council and standing shoulder to shoulder with some of the stronger Dark Councilors. As a duelist he's high-level, his illusion powers are deadly, and he's just all around strong.

The strong Dark Councilors are indeed strong. They simply aren't the only ones who are.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just like how Nihilus' technique is similar to a standard force drain, but isn't the same technique, perhaps.
Maybe

Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayt learned the technique from Cade didn't he? I wasn't aware that he was taught it by ancient Sith.
No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That could be argued, but without evidence I wouldn't buy it personally.
Evidence have been provided: Malak versus Revan (on Star Forge). That interesting power which Malak demonstrates on Star Forge is actually Dark Healing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I know. I just disagree with that logic that Decimus MUST be among the best ever just to make it onto the Dark Council.
But this is the latest ground reality of the lore now. Dark Council members are not just among the most powerful Sith of their respective eras but it is logical to assume that these individuals would be among the standouts of other eras as well.

Analogy: a Dark Council member who is 5th best in his/her era (among thousands) can be 2nd best in another era (among thousands). Now extend this argument to entire galactic history and this individual is still likely to be above enormous number of Force-users holistically. Dark Council members have rather proven their bad@assry by becoming one unlike many other Force-users in different eras who rose to prominence in different ways.

Get my drift?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because there were millions of Sith does not mean that the best of them MUST be super badasses. He is not directly beating them all or anything, he'd just been able to become more prominent than them and is likely among the best in the Empire. Being the best out of millions does not automatically make you among the best in all of history. Without actual evidence for his abilities that would be a completely premature assessment. You are placing too much importance of the Council.
Why not? Millions is an enormous figure in the context of evaluation of a Force-user.

Force-users, by default, are among the most gifted potential warriors in the galaxy. Now if these number in millions (extraordinarily high count for co-existence of Force-users in galactic history by the way) and compete with each other for supremacy then the top ones among these are logically expected to be among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Since this setting is likely to stress and test Force-users in toughest possible manner which would not be the case in other eras. So if a Force-user proves his potential in an era which presents toughest competition for him/her to prove his/he metal then their is no room left for further argument against credibility of such a Force-user in historical context as well.

Dark Council members typically have to go through a lot to become one in the first place. Some Sith have spend their entire lives attempting to become one but couldn't. I do not dismiss the possibility of exceptional cases as well such as direct appointments as per need of the hour but even these individuals have to compete to survive in the long run.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You are overhyping him, by arguing that a character with almost nothing to his name is among the best ever. Merely being on the Dark Council makes you good, obviously a significantly powerful combatant. It doesn't make you an Anakin Skywalker, a Yoda or a Mace Windu.
Almost nothing to his name?

1. Became a Dark Council member after proving his worth
2. Recognized as among the greatest champions of the Sith
3. Known to perform remarkably well during combat situations

Aren't you not paying attention to provided information?

Decimus is just like a Skywalker or Yoda or Windu or vice versa.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I understand that, but that doesn't make your argument valid. When I hear 'among the best in history' I think of Darth Bane, Dooku or Darth Nox. Even Maul. I do not think of some random Dark Council member who'd done nothing on-screen to earn the name.
I do not subscribe to this kind of reasoning when it is obvious that becoming a Dark Council member requires a Force-user to be extraordinarily gifted and possibly smart as well. In-fact, from your list, Bane, Dooku and Maul haven't faced competition of the scope that most Dark Council member to prove their worth.

- Dooku really had it easy specially.
- Bane at-least worked his way up the ladder in a Sith Academy.
- Maul received tough training from Sidious but no competitors either.

In comparison, a typical Dark Council member had to go through following:-

1. Competition in the Sith Academy
2. Competition outside Sith Academy after graduation
3. Competition even after becoming a Dark Council member

Get it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
If I was one of the best writers alive today, that would not automatically make me comparable to histories finest authors. You could still say that as a stand out of my age, I would be technically counted among them. If we take it that broudly though, the title ceases to be impressive. No-one is going to be impressed by the 1000th best Sith, when on this forum we are discussing the absolute top of the mythos.
If this 1000th position is out of lets say 1 billion, everybody will be impressed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good for him.

Which makes him better than those millions. No more.
These millions offered cutthroat competition that no other era would have offered. Also, you expect these millions to be inferior to thousands of other eras? You are not making sense here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It might seem like a big deal to you, but not to me. I'd expect any top Sith Lord to be capable of doing that if he has an army behind him. Just because he defeated a bunch of soldiers doesn't make him anything special. I wouldn't expect high numbers of mooks to matter to a Sith who is among the best of the era. And even then, the quote doesn't even imply that. There are numerous ways you can disrupt formations without being a flat out combat monster.
That statement implies that Decimus have history of disrupting/undermining entire armies on his own. Now whether the army led by Decimus helped him afterwards (or not) to utterly rout the enemy forces is another story. This development would be a big deal for any single Force-user since a well-armed army is not a small threat by any stretch of imagination to undermine out in the open.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd laugh if it turns out the Smuggler class defeated him though.
In Star Wars, most unexpected can be expected.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus' contribution to the book has nothing to do with his combat abilities, outside of the Force Maelstrom (which is in Sidious' section, so its not like Malgus himself talks about it). His section is just his wartime journal. BANE is the one who details combat techniques and lightsaber styles. Rather telling that he is the one Sidious chooses to allow to talk about Force powers and Sith combat, don't you think? wink

I agree that Malgus's section, in the "source in question," represents only a small portion of his wartime journal. However, same source actually implies that Sidious knows much more about him in general. This is why Sidious notes this:

The writings that I have collected in this volume appear in their original forms. Many are fragments of what once were longer works, but the preservation of what remains is less important than the recognition of how they led to my new vision of the Sith Order. The following three books - The Weakness of Inferiors, The Book of Anger, and The Manipulation of Life - present how I achieved absolute power, how I shall maintain it through the agency of my Galactic Empire, and how I will reshape the galaxy throughout the ages to come.*

Malgus inspired Sidious to author "The Book of Anger," which is focused on the subject of learning to harness and utilize the power of the dark side in hugely impressive ways.

A glimpse of the aforementioned book:

http://i40.tinypic.com/s46fib.png

In contrast, Darth Bane and Mother Talzin mainly inspired Sidious to author "Weakness of Inferiors," while Darth Plagueis and Sorzus Syn inspired Sidious to author "The Manipulation of Life."

In "The Book of Anger," Sidious mentions Darth Bane only in the context of his Rule of Two philosophy.

Sidious also notes this:

"For it is in the anger Force-users are strongest."

We have actual evidence of Malgus being able to use his anger to bolster his capabilities to extreme levels. He is known to go "in the zone" in this manner and become virtually unstoppable at that moment. In this manner, Malgus utterly dominated many impressive adversaries during combat situations or inflicted lot of devastation.

Here is some interesting information:

"The strength of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile."

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't.
This is the case. See above.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. Which is good for him. Impressing Sidious doesn;t make you the best ever. Assajj Ventress impressed him, so what?
I am not saying that anybody who impressed Sidious is the best ever. My intended point is that we need to focus on how much a Force-user impressed Sidious and in what particular manner.

The example of Ventress is a lame one because I don't think she inspired him or taught him anything. He actually regarded her as an underling.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sidious gave it to Vader becuase of how Malgus mirrored him with his Twilek girlfriend and injuries and as an example to Vader by how Malgus improved despite that.
See above.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Legend, I can follow your points well enough. You don't need to get condescending. Just because Sidious drew inspiration from them does mean 'OMG THEY ARE THE BEST EVER!' Sidious didn't fellate Vitiates abilities in the book, does that mean hes not as good as them? Is Malgus better in a fight? Is Talzin better at sorcery?

No. Malgus is a notable warrior. Talzin is a notable sorceress. Syn is a notable alchemist. They are not the best ever just because Sidious complied a freaking book from their notes.
You have misunderstood my argument.

I have stated that Sidious regarded Malgus as the finest warrior among all the Sith he properly assessed. Heck, Sidious himself notes that Malgus was "one of the best" among those who served Vitiate. However, his assessment likely doesn't involves other paragons of TSE but is applicable to those whom he knew well and this list includes Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. Sidious' opinion is a nice nod to Malgus' prowess, but no more important than Bane's opinion about Revan in my mind.
I give importance to both opinions.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, it was bad. The Republic was not reduced to a roving fleet operating in secret, though. The Jedi were hurt worse in the KotoR era than the Legacy era, the Republic was hurt worse in the Legacy era.
The Republic lost much of its military capability during JCW actually. This is apparent from Sith Triumvirate's virtually unopposed exploits in The Republic space. Meetra Surik had to rely upon aid of Mandalorians under the leadership of Canderous Ordo to put a check on Sith Triumvirate's activities.

The Republic managed to rebuild and reform itself (including its military capability) during the gap between 3950 BBY - 3680 BBY.

Originally posted by Q99
It also took multiple wars to reduce the Jedi so low, and the lowest was under the Triumvirate, not Vitiate. The Jedi efforts to replenish numbers fast after Exar Kun, resulted in them making some foolish mistakes like allowing independent training on other worlds, resulting in the Jedi Covenant, causing an internal conflict costing Jedi shortly before the Mandalorian war, which then depleted them more. Follow by Revan, followed by the Triumvirate.
Vitiate is actually responsible for these conflicts so he also gets the credit for their results. He came close to destroying the Jedi Order once again during the Great Galactic War but Revan prevented another Jedi purge in the making during this time.

Originally posted by Q99
And then in the TOR era itself, the Jedi and Republic successfully held half the galaxy, ironically getting no-where as near to the edge as they did during the KotoR era. Which I guess goes to show, coups and civil wars beat outside conquest for getting things done.
Depends upon the circumstances. The Republic was well-prepared for war when Vitiate invaded it directly.

Originally posted by Q99
Actually, he didn't wait for the opposition to dial down much to speak of. Things got more stable and the Jedi more plentiful.

No, what he waited for was for his forces to dial up and for an opportunity to throw the galaxy against the Jedi. His plan was based on him making the One Sith ready, he didn't wait for an exterior conflict to make an opportunity or for the Jedi to get complacent (the Jedi, in fact, were very much more prepared for Sith than, say, the Clone Wars Jedi were. Even when things turned against them they had contingencies ready).
Let us put it this way: Krayt lacked sufficient power to influence galactic events like Vitiate could even from the shadows. Krayt is not Vitiate and he shouldn't be blindly assumed to be above or even match for the likes of Revan, Bane, Malgus, Plagueis, Caedus, Nyriss and a number of other premium Force-users.

Originally posted by Q99
No, I'm pretty familiar. And more specifically, some of the Dark Council members are more impressive. Others are not.

Darth Wyyrlok, were he in the TOR era, would have no problem taking and holding a senior seat in the council and standing shoulder to shoulder with some of the stronger Dark Councilors. As a duelist he's high-level, his illusion powers are deadly, and he's just all around strong.

The strong Dark Councilors are indeed strong. They simply aren't the only ones who are.
Wyyrlok doesn't seems to be standout material for TOR era. Consult Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia to understand why. Wyyrlok's superiority over Andeddu means squat about his chances for prominence in an era as intense as TOR era. In addition, play all Jedi and Sith SWTOR stories and you will find out that their is no shortage of Wyyrloks in TOR era. In-fact, standouts of this era are much more impressive.

Q99

During Krayt's time, there *wasn't* a Republic space. They were able to formally hold no planets, and instead had to rely entirely on covert aid.

Let us put it this way: When Vitiate was the same age, he had significantly less.

Is there a reason you're focusing on red herrings? "Oh, but when Krayt didn't have an order and was a newbie Sith he couldn't do nearly as much as when Vitiate had built his order and power for centuries and centuries!"

The comparable time to Krayt being that new is pre-immortal Vitiate. You know, when he had next to no impact on the Great Hyperspace War, a far more significant war he had much more stake in than when Krayt ignored a minor war he had no reason to care about to begin with.

The comparable time to when Vitiate was sending out Revan is when Krayt conquered the galaxy.

And as we've gone over a couple times, he did have great influence in the galaxy shortly thereafter as well, Abeloth and all that.

And finally, he freaking conquered the galaxy. You keep on dancing around and playing with words to avoid that and relying on apples-and-oranges comparisons of literally 7 years after he formed an order vs literally centuries after Vitiate formed his.

If your only argument against someone is highly dissimilar comparisons, then you aren't doing very well.

You keep going on about impact, and most of those have a fraction of the impact of Krayt.

And I'm not blindingly assuming, the guy has a lot of feats, combat and otherwise. He managed some force powers no Sith before him had (despite characters on that list trying), and his order had a lot of strong Sith- you yourself noted force barrier was something it took exceptionally skilled Sith to do, and even One Sith unable to make the inner circle could use it with power.

I wouldn't say he'd be above all of those (though definitely above some), but you're the one asking us to believe that the most powerful force user of his era with plenty of great feats and a strong order isn't to be ranked among the 'exceptional sith'.... for some reason.

I never said nor do I claim that Krayt is Vitiate's equal. However, you keep trying to use arguments that work better against Vitiate than they do Krayt. Every time you do so, I will of course point this out and how Krayt worked much faster than the big V.

Really?

The way you're writing that is pretty much openly admitting that you see Wyyrlok as quite powerful by TOR standards and can't bring up any arguments, you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

Notably, none of these sith sorcerers were as well-remember or famous for their power as Andeddu. And we all remember what happened to Andeddu...

You're still relying on the thesis that 'because a TOR character is from the TOR era, they must be stronger,' even in instances where they don't have better feats.

Btw, Krayt promotes on competence and power.

Nephthys

So I went to reply and:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Decimus is just like a Skywalker or Yoda or Windu or vice versa.

no expression

That you would say this frankly astounds me.

Q99

Originally posted by Nephthys
So I went to reply and:

no expression

That you would say this frankly astounds me.

To be fair, he was bald like Mace.

He was also a Sith Lord who only ascended to the role by selling the Jedi info on his rival. So... yea, he couldn't even take his position directly.

XRKun

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Based on what?

TK destroyed part of a temple
Beat 3 BM amped duelists while he was in orbalisks (making him slower, and it should be noted that one was a battlemaster, and the other was an upcoming battlemaster)
Lightning incinerated stuff
Appeared to wield a dozen sabers to Zannah
The speedy rain feat (heavy rain drops can move at 18 mph, and in a storm, about 10 million fall).
Essence transfer
Force Drain
Good with CQC
He's 6'8" and VERY STRONG, forget Force Strength, this dude is BUFF already

Q99

Originally posted by XRKun

Beat 3 BM amped duelists while he was in orbalisks (making him slower, and it should be noted that one was a battlemaster, and the other was an upcoming battlemaster)

The adrenaline and stuff they provide should make him, if anything, faster. They don't restrict movement and aren't particularly heavy, after all.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
During Krayt's time, there *wasn't* a Republic space. They were able to formally hold no planets, and instead had to rely entirely on covert aid.
Your point is?

Originally posted by Q99
Let us put it this way: When Vitiate was the same age, he had significantly less.
What age?

Let us the analyze this matter from real world perspective as well:

Vitiate became ruler of a planet during the Golden Age of the Sith by the age of 13 and he accomplished this objective with his personal power and combat prowess (this is unparalleled accomplishment in the entire mythos for such a young individual). In-fact, Vitiate could participate in further "power games" and may have even overthrown Marka Ragnos to become the supreme ruler of the ancient Empire he was initially part of. But this didn't happen because authors had no option but to retcon older canon lore associated with this era, so they decided to figure out an alternative approach for his rise to power.

After the disaster of the Great Hyperspace War, Vitiate prevented extinction of Sith survivors and reconstituted a new galactic superpower in the uncharted territory. At this point, he was comparable to Marka Ragnos in prominence (supreme ruler of a Sith Empire; dream of any ambitious Sith), which is a remarkable accomplishment under the circumstances of that time.

You may argue that Vitiate did not challenge The Republic for a long time but this is due to following reasons:

1. From real-world perspective, such a development would have interfered with ground realities of older canon lore, so authors had to link him with greater galactic affairs in calculative manner. KoTOR II provided the opportunity to authors to link Vitiate with greater galactic affairs eventually. In-fact, SWTOR is heavily based on lore of KoTOR II.

2. From in-universe perspective, Vitiate faced the enormous task of developing his dream Empire or civilization first which would be powerful enough to challenge The Republic; given the circumstances of that timeline, this was not an easy task and resources did not came from trees. In addition, Vitiate had a bigger plan in mind: To consume the entire galaxy to complete his ultimate transformation into a godlike entity. For Vitiate, conquering the galaxy was a secondary objective actually so he prepared himself to make his ultimate plan a reality which took lot of time.

Therefore, do not mistake Vitiate's patience for his lack of capability or something.

Originally posted by Q99
Is there a reason you're focusing on red herrings? "Oh, but when Krayt didn't have an order and was a newbie Sith he couldn't do nearly as much as when Vitiate had built his order and power for centuries and centuries!"

The comparable time to Krayt being that new is pre-immortal Vitiate. You know, when he had next to no impact on the Great Hyperspace War, a far more significant war he had much more stake in than when Krayt ignored a minor war he had no reason to care about to begin with.

The comparable time to when Vitiate was sending out Revan is when Krayt conquered the galaxy.

And as we've gone over a couple times, he did have great influence in the galaxy shortly thereafter as well, Abeloth and all that.

And finally, he freaking conquered the galaxy. You keep on dancing around and playing with words to avoid that and relying on apples-and-oranges comparisons of literally 7 years after he formed an order vs literally centuries after Vitiate formed his.

If your only argument against someone is highly dissimilar comparisons, then you aren't doing very well.
See above.

You have not realized the fact that Vitiate could be lot more influential in the shoes of Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
You keep going on about impact, and most of those have a fraction of the impact of Krayt.
Fraction of the impact? Give me a break.

Do you have a habit of overreaching too much in matters involving legacy era characters?

Originally posted by Q99
And I'm not blindingly assuming, the guy has a lot of feats, combat and otherwise. He managed some force powers no Sith before him had (despite characters on that list trying), and his order had a lot of strong Sith- you yourself noted force barrier was something it took exceptionally skilled Sith to do, and even One Sith unable to make the inner circle could use it with power.
And what are these unique force powers? It have been already established that Dark Transfer have an ancient sister application. What else?

Of-course, Krayt is a well-explored character but this means jack when things are analyzed holistically. Well-explored characters are not supposed to be superior to "not so well-explored" characters by default. It is just that it is easier to evaluate capabilities of well-explored characters in comparison to "not so well-explored" ones and consider them for versus debates accordingly. But holistic ground realities can be much different.

Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't say he'd be above all of those (though definitely above some), but you're the one asking us to believe that the most powerful force user of his era with plenty of great feats and a strong order isn't to be ranked among the 'exceptional sith'.... for some reason.
Of-course, Krayt is among the "exceptional Sith." I personally consider him to be. However, I have noticed a pattern in your debates that whenever he is featured in a versus contest, he is supposed to superior unless the contestant is Sidious, Vitiate, Luke, Abeloth, The Father, The Daughter and The Son. Why? Why should I or even (we) believe this? You have even gone so far to claim that he will one-shot even the former 3 Force-users with his Dark Transfer talent. This does not makes sense to me because exceptional Force-users are typically very good at defending themselves or even tanking powers. I do believe that some techniques/applications might be deadly enough to destroy any sentient upon contact (at least biologically) but Dark Transfer does not seems to be among them. Heck, such powerful defensive applications have been created that they make their users virtually invincible for as long as they are held up.

I have already presented a holistic picture of why I believe that Krayt isn't such a big deal in comparison to paragons of the SWTOR era because this (SWTOR) era seems to represent the pinnacle of competition, advancement and power progression among the Sith in ancient times and their had been a pattern of decline and decay after the fall of Vitiate's Sith Empire. Darth Bane managed to reform the Sith once again but the decline once again commenced after the fall of Sidious. I acknowledge the fact that Krayt brought back Sith to prominence for a specific period again but his own rise to prominence was made possible by some previous developments (he did not pulled off wonders like Vitiate did and neither he was being hunted for extermination by the Jedi in his time. In-fact, he benefited from the generosity of the Jedi). Furthermore, Krayt may have uncovered a few new things but most of his knowledge is still based on ancient teachings. And it is not necessary that he is the most knowledgeable Sith ever. Their may be lot of stuff that he doesn't specializes in.

Originally posted by Q99
I never said nor do I claim that Krayt is Vitiate's equal. However, you keep trying to use arguments that work better against Vitiate than they do Krayt. Every time you do so, I will of course point this out and how Krayt worked much faster than the big V.
Covered above.

Originally posted by Q99
Really?

The way you're writing that is pretty much openly admitting that you see Wyyrlok as quite powerful by TOR standards and can't bring up any arguments, you just don't want to admit you're wrong.
Maybe you are not paying enough attention to my arguments:

I have made it clear to you beforehand that Wyyrlok's superiority over Andeddu is not such a big deal as you are trying to make it out to be. My assessment of this development is that Andeddu's power was over-hyped and over-glorified in legends. The Sith have come a long way since the reign of Andeddu.

Maybe this will clarify my POV:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2d9ei6s.png

Lets say that Marka Ragnos is Dark Council level. Sith have canonically considerably grown in power on two occasions:-

- During reign of Tulak Hord
- During reign of Vitiate

I rate the exiled Dark Jedi very high personally with all the hype surrounding them. Boxes themselves represent power-scaling. Outliers have been mostly ignored with exception of Tulak Hord.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Notably, none of these sith sorcerers were as well-remember or famous for their power as Andeddu. And we all remember what happened to Andeddu...
This is very lame reasoning. Andeddu was popularized in legends. However, Sith slowly but surely began to push boundaries. If you focus on legends of lets say Tulak Hord, he rips Andeddu a new one. The standards set by Vitiate were ridiculously high.

Originally posted by Q99
You're still relying on the thesis that 'because a TOR character is from the TOR era, they must be stronger,' even in instances where they don't have better feats.
No! My assessment is based on canon information at my possession. You need to pay attention to my revelations to understand my position on this matter.

As mentioned above, Sith were continuously improving during the time span of existence of the first major ancient Sith Empire established by the exiled Dark Jedi. The prime of this time span is regarded as the Golden Age of the Sith. However, Vitiate further increased the standards of the Sith after the disaster of the Great Hyperspace War:

For 20 years, the exiled Sith fleet drifted through deep space. The Sith healed their wounds and reflected on their defeat. Imperial battle strategies were dissected, internal Sith strife was identified as a key weakness, and the Republic's surprise and slow move to defend itself was seen as a vulnerability ripe for exploit.

Meanwhile, the Sith dedicated themselves to training. They delved deep into the dark side of the Force, mastered new powers, and honed their minds and bodies into efficient weapons. Then after nearly two decades of planning and training, they discovered the world of Dromund Kaas.*

To uphold this newly christian-ed standard, very harsh and brutal training was norm in the Sith Academies of Vitiate's reconstituted Sith Empire:

Sith embody passion, strength, and power. Many pursue these ideals, but few are up to the challenge. Every force-sensitive being in the Empire must endure the harsh, unrelenting trails that have shaped the Sith for millennia. Some are groomed for the privilege from the moment they display Force sensitivity. Others fear the trials and hide their talent, only to be forced to face the tests. But regardless of their background, most acolytes die utter failures, their weaknesses exposed by the crushing demands of the Sith Academy on Korriban.

Whether broken by their overseer's instruction, struck down by their fellow acolytes, or devoured by the beasts of Korriban, many acolytes perish during their training. Others use the trials to hone their strength and deepen their understanding of the dark side. But ultimately, only the most fearsome, mighty and cunning acolytes rise to prove their worth and become Sith.*

Now after graduation, Sith Lords engage in further cutthroat competition to plan their ascension to Dark Council if they are ambitious enough but this competition never ends for even those who become Dark Council members:

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a month, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.*

So now you realize that what it takes to be a Dark Council member in Vitiate's Sith Empire?

Forget Wyrrlok! Chances of "any" Sith are slim to become a Dark Council member in Vitiate's Sith Empire. Heck, individuals are lucky to even graduate from Sith Academies of this Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, Krayt promotes on competence and power.
Provide details.

---
*Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
So I went to reply and:

no expression

That you would say this frankly astounds me.
http://www.diabetesmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Vanilla-Ice-Cream-Cone.jpg

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your point is?
Adding to this:

I have pointed out to you (Q99) before that numerous developments set the stage for Krayt's rise to prominence; Vong War and dialing down of competition with passage of time.

Krayt exploited the internal fractures of the so-called Galactic Alliance (these fractures represent the aftermath of the Vong War) and transformed it into a Sith Empire. If these internal fractures had not existed and some formidable competition was in place, Krayt wouldn't have accomplished so much.

Q99

Problems: The Exiles, from what we've seen, are incredibly impressive even by Dark Council levels, and Darth Vader worried that he could use Muur to beat Palpatine... only for Muur to then dominate him as a new master instead.

There's also a big drop to immediately after the Exiles for no clear reason I can tell... and also, we've got nothing placing Andeddu that early, rather than, say, between Tulok and Ragnos.

Additionally, while Andeddu's combat prowess was low, consider this: Not only was he able to give himself biological immortality, but he was so good with illusions he could kill with it. Even by TOR standards, you're not going to find many who could kill with illusions alone, and that's just Andeddu.

Finally, Legacy does not *just* have direct comparison to the old Empire- who I will note often gets talked up even in TOR as incredibly powerful- but also KotoR (one of the stronger masters from then, when amped and aged, was no match for weaker armored Krayt), Clone Wars, and the New Jedi Order eras.

When the most powerful Jedi of all time acknowledges a character as very power... and then they not only gain more experience but a flat-out major power post, then that character is pretty strong.

Actually, I think he's around equal to several more not on that list. I have said quite a few other force users would be epic fights for him.

But yes, those are the list of ones that are clearly better than him, and the next tier down includes Krayt, Revan, and other exceptional sith.

Because, one, he's the strongest in an era that's had comparisons to multiple other eras, and two, he's accomplished things than even incredibly powerful sith have not. Control over life and death is no small feat.

He transcended death, was a peerless combatant in his time, and conquered the galaxy. What more do you want? Both in force understanding and accomplishments he stands at a very high level.

To throw your 'why' back at you, why should I rate the non-Vitiate TOR Sith who haven't done more in the force and haven't done nearly as much impact higher?

I do believe you simply are trying to hold Krayt to a higher standard before admitting him as even an equal. Characters of different eras should still be judged by the same standards.

Shatterpoints, no tanking- Cade used shatterpoints to destroy even believed-to-be-indestructable objects inhabited by Karness Muur, let alone bodies.

Yes it'd kill them if he used it. That's what it does, and that's one part of why he's so dangerous. He has an almost certain kill ability.

And again, this is if it was successfully applied. Would he actually get a chance to use it on Sidious or Luke? Not very likely! Not without a whole ton of luck. It is an ability that requires good direct contact.

By 'fractures' we are just talking 'worlds in need of repair'. The political fractures? He made them.

And of course, TOR heavily relied on existing fractures themselves, Revan's rise was only possible due to the deep division in the Jedi caused by the Exar Kun war that caused them to ignore the Mandalorians, so this is just a case of inconsistent standards.

And by 'dialing down' of competition you mean an entire rival order rising as competition. Not to mention, several of their Jedi masters were original ones from the Clone Wars, so knowledge is not going to be lost.

There were 7 years of constant war against multiple orders, Jedi and Imperial Knight. Not only is there no sign of the Jedi being out of practice in advance, but they certainly wouldn't be after that.

The Legacy era is a high-competition era where one of the key elements was a multi-sided war between force users, whether you like it or not.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Why exactly are you two arguing who had more impact and how competitive their eras were? This is a versus battle. You know, when people fight each other.

The_Tempest

facepalm

Krayt is the second most successful Sith Lord of all time; Vitiate is number three. Vitiate had 14 centuries to cobble together success and could only achieve half Krayt's success, more or less.

Palpatine, naturally, eclipses them both and by a lot. stoned

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

to be fair, wasn't it stated that Vitiate would have taken over the galaxy, had revan not made Vitiate sign the treaty? Or that Vitiate would have destroyed the republic had he attacked much earlier, and Revan keeping him from doing so?

The_Tempest

Stated by whom? What source?

That's tantamount to saying that "he could have won if he hadn't lost." You could make that claim about anyone who did anything ever.

Vitiate's gains were arguably bigger than anyone barring Krayt and Sidious, but given the time and resources at his disposal, they were embarrassingly low.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

That's the question i'm asking.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I'm trying to say that people bring up all his, "time and resources," and take that as "embarrassingly low", when he would have succeeded in taking over the galaxy with all his time and resources, had Revan not augmented his already irrational fear of death.

The_Tempest

Palpatine did in ~50 years what Vitiate couldn't accomplish in over a thousand. It is pathetic, frankly. Still better than what most Sith brought to the table, but that goes to show how lame the Sith are as a collective.

Why would anyone want to be one?

ares834

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
when he would have succeeded in taking over the galaxy with all his time and resources, had Revan not augmented his already irrational fear of death.

So what? You can say similar things with many villains.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Yes, and that was built through Bane's creation of the Rule of Two, 1000+ years beforehand. Note that I'm not trying to shortchange Palpatine's superior accomplishment in this regard.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by ares834
So what? You can say similar things with many villains.

Yes, but you cannot trash Vitiate for his failure to succeed despite his time and resources, thank Revan for ****ing with him.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, and that was built through Bane's creation of the Rule of Two, 1000+ years beforehand. Note that I'm not trying to shortchange Palpatine's superior accomplishment in this regard.

And what of Palpatine's accomplishments is directly attributable to Bane? Nowhere are any visible gains for the Grand Plan said to be made until the coming of Plagueis.

In fact, the titular novel suggests that sabotage from Darth Gravid and errant adventures from Tenebrous and his Master undermined the Grand Plan's efforts more than aided.

In other words, Palpatine inherited the unattested gains and the attested errors of his predecessors and make do.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, but you cannot trash Vitiate for his failure to succeed despite his time and resources, thank Revan for ****ing with him.

Says who?

Revan successfully exploited his enemy's weakness and mindhaxx3d the great mindhaxx3r. You can trash any villain for failing; that's the point.

What Vitiate managed to accomplish is startlingly negligible compared to the time and resources at his disposal.

Stealth Moose

Vitiate mindfighting Revan for 300 years > Sidious being benchpressed into a shaft.

WUT NOW BRO.

The_Tempest

No arguments there.

Q99

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why exactly are you two arguing who had more impact and how competitive their eras were? This is a versus battle. You know, when people fight each other.

They're what SW Legend is using to argue Malgus as stronger, and yes, I agree it's a bit silly.

I'll just list some stuff Krayt is very good at in fights:

Illusion. Out-illusioned Wyyrlok, who in turn out-illusions Andeddu, who was so good with illusion he could kill people with phantasmal damage alone.

Sabers. Even as a Jedi he was a high-level saber monkey. He got a lot more experience and a lot stronger as a Sith.

Shatterpoints. Often a nice tie-breaker. In situations where things are otherwise near-even, the one who can see the weakpoints wins.

Energy absorption. Catching force lightning (from Wyyrlok again) bare-handed is something only about a half-dozen characters have done, and he's one of them.

Dark Transfer. Grab someone they're dead. Get a small wound and heal it on the spot. Get a mutual kill and come back from the dead. Very useful, unique to him & Cade.

He's also shown good defense against TK (Cade has shown much stronger TK than Malgus, and Krayt's defended it with no prob), though he personally doesn't use it much.

NewGuy01

^Out Illusion'd Wyyrlok? No he didn't. Out Illusion'd Andeddu? No, he didn't. Krayt powered through Wyyrlok's illusion with sheer Force of will, and Wyyrlok defeated Andeddu by burning his ancient studies which led to his ridiculous death.

NewGuy01

Oh, and to add to his accomplishments:

-He's turned two stone pillars into rubble with FL, and has also used FL to kill a group of Yuuzahn Vong warriors instantly.

-He's speedblitzed 3 Imperial Knights while suffering from diminished health--The Imperial Knights are a very selective order and practically all of it's members are elite.

-He's ragdolled both Cade and Nihl. When ragdolling the former, the sheer force of when he pulled him brought down a nearby pillar.

-Basically completely outmatched Cade and Wyyrlok as duelists. These two are basically the respective best Jedi/Sith in the galaxy in this regard sans Krayt, so yeah.

He should be a pretty good match for Malgus. These two have very similar levels of ability.

Q99

Originally posted by NewGuy01
^Out Illusion'd Wyyrlok? No he didn't. Out Illusion'd Andeddu? No, he didn't. Krayt powered through Wyyrlok's illusion with sheer Force of will, and Wyyrlok defeated Andeddu by burning his ancient studies which led to his ridiculous death.

Note in the scene when under Wyyrlok's illusion, his hands were clearly empty- then when he revealed he was stronger than Wyylok thought, he had lightsabers in both hands. I mean, I guess it *could* be an absurdly fast quickdraw, but I think it was intended to be illusion-within-an-illusion.

As for Andeddu, Wyyrlok presented Andeddu with an illusion of him destroying Andeddu's life and then consumed Andeddu himself in an illusion of fire and lava, which killed him and destroyed his spirit.

Upon Andeddu's death, the library was completely intact, nothing was burned, and Andeddu's corpse was just sitting there in an undamaged room.

So the first, I could see an argument either way, but Wyyrlok is definitely good enough to kill a powerful Sith Sorcerer in an illusion fight.

Krayt did also hit Cade with a whole big vision while killing/reviving him.

Four smile

All of whom were the Emperor's personal bodyguards, one of whom was the Emperor's cousin, and who had him surrounded before they all died to his blade.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Problems: The Exiles, from what we've seen, are incredibly impressive even by Dark Council levels, and Darth Vader worried that he could use Muur to beat Palpatine... only for Muur to then dominate him as a new master instead.
Vader believed that he could overthrow Palpatine with aid of Luke and Galen as well. This didn't happen because both Luke and Galen refused to be part of Vader's vision.

I think that you underestimate Dark Council members. Based on holistic evidence, they are much more proven bad@sses in comparison to majority of the other Force-users in the mythos. It is rare for an outsider to match a Dark Council member in bad@ssry.

Dark Council members are known to be telekinetic powerhouses, control/influence entities, utterly destroy other "powerful" Force-users with their dark side powers, undermine whole armies with their dark side abilities (if on battlefield), specialize in the field of Sith Sorcery and more. These Sith are canonically acknowledged as the most powerful dark side practitioners in the galaxy (barring Vitiate).

Originally posted by Q99
There's also a big drop to immediately after the Exiles for no clear reason I can tell... and also, we've got nothing placing Andeddu that early, rather than, say, between Tulok and Ragnos.
My diagram clarifies this supposed big drop; Exiles were possibly significantly stronger then the original Sith they met on Korriban. However, Exiles eventually trained their followers who eventually made lot of progress afterwards.

Andeddu is most likely a predecessor of Tulak Hord. It was Tulak Hord who significantly improved the dueling standards of Sith and he also contended with the threat of Jedi in his era. I don't think that the Jedi learned about existence of Sith during Andeddu's reign and neither it is apparent from any canonical hint that those who served Andeddu were master swordsmen.

Originally posted by Q99
Additionally, while Andeddu's combat prowess was low, consider this: Not only was he able to give himself biological immortality, but he was so good with illusions he could kill with it. Even by TOR standards, you're not going to find many who could kill with illusions alone, and that's just Andeddu.
Andeddu contended with much inferior opposition in comparison to what he would find in TOR era. Any reasonable Sith Sorcerer from an era (noticeably more competitive then that of Andeddu's) would be a match for Andeddu in his own game; Wyrrlok proved this. And I am sure that their are numerous examples of Sith Sorcerers - summoning dangerous illusions that could harm and even kill - in the mythos.

I personally respect Andeddu's dark side knowledge but his personal capabilities have been overhyped in legends.

Originally posted by Q99
Finally, Legacy does not *just* have direct comparison to the old Empire- who I will note often gets talked up even in TOR as incredibly powerful- but also KotoR (one of the stronger masters from then, when amped and aged, was no match for weaker armored Krayt), Clone Wars, and the New Jedi Order eras.
I don't recall Andeddu having much hype in SWTOR era or even in KoTOR era(s). Your assertion is misplaced. Andeddu acquired some dark side talents that were craved by other Sith; most notably secrets of immortality. This doesn't implies that Andeddu was the most powerful Sith Sorcerer ever to grace the galaxy.

Originally posted by Q99
When the most powerful Jedi of all time acknowledges a character as very power... and then they not only gain more experience but a flat-out major power post, then that character is pretty strong.
???

Originally posted by Q99
Actually, I think he's around equal to several more not on that list. I have said quite a few other force users would be epic fights for him.

But yes, those are the list of ones that are clearly better than him, and the next tier down includes Krayt, Revan, and other exceptional sith.
I respect your opinion but I am not going to blindly subscribe to it. The top-tier Force-users are possibly several tiers above the likes of Krayt.

You need to prove that Krayt is a match for Malgus; the reasons that you have provided thus far are not sufficient to warrant him even this position. Their is more holistic evidence of even Meetra Surik being superior warrior then Krayt then otherwise.

Originally posted by Q99
Because, one, he's the strongest in an era that's had comparisons to multiple other eras, and two, he's accomplished things than even incredibly powerful sith have not. Control over life and death is no small feat.
Comparison with that of Andeddu's? Not impressed.

You are overhyping Krayt's supposed control over matters of life and death because Cade struck him down with a lightsaber and then arranged for destruction of his body, and this was enough. I have pointed out to you before that Sion rivaled Krayt in these aspects and Meetra Surik stopped him.

I recall Vader's amusing words:

"There is very little that cannot be solved with a lightsaber."

Originally posted by Q99
He transcended death, was a peerless combatant in his time, and conquered the galaxy. What more do you want? Both in force understanding and accomplishments he stands at a very high level.
He is not the first one to transcend death. He is arguably number 1 in his era but this doesn't means that he would be so damn good in other highly competitive eras (certainly not in TOR and RO2 time periods). If you will ignore/overlook/underestimate the holistic ground realities of other highly competitive eras, you will surely rate Krayt very high like you are already doing.

Krayt seems to be on par with Sion on the basis of holistic evidence in the context of personal capabilities, which is very good position.

Originally posted by Q99
To throw your 'why' back at you, why should I rate the non-Vitiate TOR Sith who haven't done more in the force and haven't done nearly as much impact higher?
To understand this, you need to focus on the ground realities of TOR era. Vitiate shaped his Sith Empire in such a manner that it was almost impossible for his followers to rise and compete with him for supremacy directly. He put measures in place that kept other Sith preoccupied with each other and other matters of the Empire and not get the opportunity to bother him most often. He also established his personal powerbase which complemented him on his personal safety. On top of this, he was so powerful and so much in control over his followers that those who dared to threaten him easily lost. You need to understand the structure and internal mechanics of Vitiate's Sith Empire to understand why other Sith failed to compete with him directly, if this is your point of contention. But make no mistake, his Empire produced lot of remarkably powerful Sith Lords but those weren't as fortunate as lets say Krayt was, because they were typically overshadowed by Vitiate. Darth Marr proves that these "other remarkably powerful Sith Lords" were more then capable of handling big matters on their own.

Originally posted by Q99
I do believe you simply are trying to hold Krayt to a higher standard before admitting him as even an equal. Characters of different eras should still be judged by the same standards.
I do think highly of Krayt but I am interested in finding out that where he may stand holistically in the mythos in the context of power. I believe that he matches Sion at least.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Shatterpoints, no tanking- Cade used shatterpoints to destroy even believed-to-be-indestructable objects inhabited by Karness Muur, let alone bodies.
Force-users with shatterpoint talent can figure out potential weaknesses in targets that are not apparent otherwise. However, powerful Force-users are a different ball game; it is not easy to undermine such kind of opposition even with shatterpoint talent. Look no further then story of Satele to understand why.

Keep in mind that if the Force can be used to destroy effectively, it can also be used to protect effectively.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes it'd kill them if he used it. That's what it does, and that's one part of why he's so dangerous. He has an almost certain kill ability.

And again, this is if it was successfully applied.
You continue to overreach in this aspect. Their are lot of offensive applications that can easily kill living beings but the effectiveness of such applications vary in the context of nature of the opposition.

I believe that Cade successfully used DT application on Darth Talon once? However, I have come to know that Darth Talon got injured sometime before this event and Cade used DT application to reopen her former injuries which had been "freshly treated" and were therefore vulnerable to exploitation by DT application. In the nutshell, DT application have offensive uses but in circumstantial way. I doubt that he can destroy much powerful Force-users with this application in the manner as you are trying to propagate here.

Originally posted by Q99
Would he actually get a chance to use it on Sidious or Luke? Not very likely! Not without a whole ton of luck. It is an ability that requires good direct contact.
Yes, its not easy for him to utilize DT application in mid-combat situations against other powerful Force-users, and it works in circumstantial way.

Originally posted by Q99
By 'fractures' we are just talking 'worlds in need of repair'. The
political fractures? He made them.
Care to provide canon information in this respect?

Oh wait! After the fall of Sidious, two prominent galactic forces existed in the galaxy:

- Rebellion which shaped itself into Galactic Federation.
- Remnants of the Galactic Empire who shaped themselves into Fel Empire.

Since neither was able to overcome other in the original conflict so a truce was reached between them? After the invasion of Vong, these two forces eventually formed an Alliance known as Galactic Alliance to counter additional (possible) external threats more effectively? But this Alliance was already fractured due to mindset of Imperials? And Krayt exploited this situation to his advantage after no major threat existed to keep him under check (e.g. Sidious, Caedus, Luke, Ben and vice versa)? Hmm. It all makes sense now.

Heck, my assessment makes sense; Krayt benefitted from the previous developments which eventually paved way for his rise to prominence. If Krayt were to exist in a different era like ancient ones, he wouldn't have accomplished much.

Originally posted by Q99
And of course, TOR heavily relied on existing fractures themselves, Revan's rise was only possible due to the deep division in the Jedi caused by the Exar Kun war that caused them to ignore the Mandalorians, so this is just a case of inconsistent standards.
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide asserts that Revan would have been a role-model individual in the era of Kun as well.

Both The Republic and Jedi Order had recovered from Exar Kun's war within a span of 50 years, if I am not mistaken. Both forces had ample strength to contend with the threat of Mandalorians under right leadership (a role which was filled by Revan). If Revan had not acted, it may have been too late otherwise because Mandalorians were a major fighting force during this time and only fools would have underestimated their threat. Revan's rise to prominence can be blamed on actions of Vitiate rather then on Kun.

Also, Vitiate directly attacked The Republic in a time period when it was absolutely healthy and prepared for any eventuality; same goes for the Jedi Order; thanks to efforts of Revan and Surik.

Originally posted by Q99
And by 'dialing down' of competition you mean an entire rival order rising as competition. Not to mention, several of their Jedi masters were original ones from the Clone Wars, so knowledge is not going to be lost.
Covered above. You are giving Krayt more credit then he deserves.

Originally posted by Q99
There were 7 years of constant war against multiple orders, Jedi and Imperial Knight. Not only is there no sign of the Jedi being out of practice in advance, but they certainly wouldn't be after that.
This revelation favors my assessment actually. The Jedi Order was preoccupied with the internal rifts of Galactic Alliance and Krayt took advantage. I wonder why Jedi eventually forgot to keep an eye on Krayt after the time of Luke and Ben.

Originally posted by Q99
The Legacy era is a high-competition era where one of the key elements was a multi-sided war between force users, whether you like it or not.
I never stated that Legacy era Force-users are weak or losers. They are decent on the whole.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Palpatine did in ~50 years what Vitiate couldn't accomplish in over a thousand. It is pathetic, frankly. Still better than what most Sith brought to the table, but that goes to show how lame the Sith are as a collective.

Why would anyone want to be one?
This is a shortsighted assessment of the lore at hand. I am not sure if OP pays attention to explanation below or not but it is for the benefit and knowledge of all readers:

Palpatine existed in a time when Sith had learned valuable lessons from past developments and adopted a new strategy to contend with the threat of the Jedi. The Sith went into hiding and exploited the rampant corruption within The Republic to their advantage to accomplish their objectives. The Republic had disbanded its military might after the victory of Ruusan which resulted in power struggles within its systems and left them open to exploitation by external forces. Then came Plagueis who was prominent with the Banking Clan and helped Palpatine gain prominence in political matters of The Republic. The Jedi Order slowly but surely "grew out of touch" with its ways during this era of peace and this decay led to disillusionment within its own ranks (e.g. Dooku resigned from the Jedi Order due to the aforementioned reasons). On top of this, Plagueis and Palpatine jointly performed a ritual which further clouded the judgment of the Jedi Order. Now with Palpatine at the helm of the affairs with support from his Sith Master, he managed to successfully exploit the internal rifts of the dialed down Republic and disillusioned Jedi Order and the rest is crystal clear.

Vitiate's performance cannot be evaluated in the same manner as that of Palpatine's because his situation was vastly different from that of the latter in reach of the galactic affairs. Vitiate did came (very) close to eradicating both the Jedi Order and The Republic by orchestrating conflicts such as the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. However, Revan and Surik managed to foil Vitiate's plans, and when Vitiate eventually made another decision, it was too late: Both The Republic and the Jedi Order had fully recovered after during the gap between Jedi Civil War and The Great Galactic War and even reformed themselves to great degree to make sure that they will not fail again in a long time. Even though Vitiate managed to successfully plant lot of his agents within these forces after the Jedi Civil War and was once again close to eradicating both, Revan prevented this from happening again by influencing Vitiate to not capitalize on the achievement of Sacking of Coruscant and this led to internal fractures within his Empire with several Sith Lords planning to take matters in their own hands. On top of this, The Force have its own will; when the Vitiate was about to reach too high by attempting to consume the entire galaxy, the seeds of his downfall had been sown by the will of The Force itself.

In the nutshell, both Sidious and Vitiate were brilliant tacticians and masters of the Force but the former was more fortunate then the latter in reach of galactic affairs.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh, and to add to his accomplishments:

-He's turned two stone pillars into rubble with FL, and has also used FL to kill a group of Yuuzahn Vong warriors instantly.
One of the victims of Malgus collapsed two buildings simultaneously with his telekinetic abilities.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-He's speedblitzed 3 Imperial Knights while suffering from diminished health--The Imperial Knights are a very selective order and practically all of it's members are elite.
Zallow cut down some of the strongest Sith warriors like fodder who participated in the Sacking of Coruscant! And you know what became of him when he fought Malgus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-He's ragdolled both Cade and Nihl. When ragdolling the former, the sheer force of when he pulled him brought down a nearby pillar.
- Malgus send Zallow crashing in to a large column (made of stone) with such a force that the Jedi broke right through it, landing many feet away. Zallow still had the strength to stand up and continue the fight.

- Malgus once blew apart the portion of rubble in different directions that fell over him during the collapse of two buildings around his position.

- Malgus could send even the mighty Satele Shan packing with his telekinetic abilities.

I am sure their are more examples.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Basically completely outmatched Cade and Wyyrlok as duelists. These two are basically the respective best Jedi/Sith in the galaxy in this regard sans Krayt, so yeah.
Malgus have more impressive combat record. Krayt lost to cade eventually.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He should be a pretty good match for Malgus. These two have very similar levels of ability.
No. Malgus outguns him by a long shot.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by ares834
So what? You can say similar things with many villains.

thumb up

Vitiate is probably top 5 in terms of successful Sith. Krayt's number 2 and Sidious tops the list effortlessly.

Revan, Bane, Dooku, Plagueis, and Ragnos are gonna have a free-for-all to decide who makes the cut.

psmith81992

Why is Krayt #2?

The_Tempest

Conquered most of the galaxy and routed the Jedi order. Much as I dislike Legacy, that's a pretty damn impressive dark side C.V.

Second only to Palpatine.

psmith81992

All he did was take over the existing Galactic Empire. The Jedi order wasn't half of what it was when Vitiate was fighting it. While all of that is very impressive, I'm not sure why he would be #2. I'd say Vitiate goes there. He rebuilt the entire sith empire and had the Republic on its ass. Or Revan, whose Civil War left only 100 jedi remaining.

The_Tempest

Krayt was a partner in the Empire's return to prominence and all that entails. Obviously it's nothing compared to the magnificent bastardry Palpatine demonstrated, but given the time and resources Vitiate had at his disposal, Krayt's gains were much more impressive and expedient.

Vitiate's gains weren't all that when you consider all that he had at his disposal.

psmith81992

Vitiate had to build an entire empire from scratch. Krayt was a partner in an existing empire. To a certain extent so was Revan, but the damage he did to the jedi rivals that of Palpatine.

The_Tempest

Not quite from scratch, he did have the remnants of Sadow's empire to play with. Neither Vitiate nor Krayt started from ground zero. And in the end, Krayt achieved more or less galactic domination in a fraction of the time it took Vitiate to achieve half the outcome. Thus Krayt is second only to the Emperor, imo.

Revan is up there as well, but he relied on defecting Republic forces and the Star Forge. While the damage he dealt to the Jedi was profound, the rest of his achievements don't come close to matching Palpatine's, which is why I don't put the two on par.

My rough list is:

Palpatine
-large gap-
Krayt
Vitiate

Then, after another gap, you have Dooku, Plagueis, Ragnos, Bane, and Revan duking it out.

psmith81992

What's the difference between Revan taking Republic troops, and Krayt taking Empire troops? Revan did more in 3-5 years than Krayt planned for in 100.

Again, Revan's war left barely 100 jedi alive, or was it less than 100. The Republic was completely fractured as well. That could easily be comparable to Sidious' 20-40 year grand plan no?

S_W_LeGenD

^^^

Exactly! Revan is Krayt's superior in holistic context.

Q99

I will note when starting the order, Krayt did start from ground zero. He was working as a bounty hunter and had a holocron when he started the order.

He eventually used the order to seize the pre-existing Empire, but he didn't inherit anything when he started.

psmith81992

No, he created a sith order with tens of thousands of average force users, so while that's impressive, most of his order sucks. Revan brought the republic to its news and almost wiped out the jedi at the same time, all within a 3 year period.

Nephthys

To be fair, the Republic was pretty pants in the Kotor period.

Q99

Originally posted by psmith81992
No, he created a sith order with tens of thousands

What 'no'? That's exactly what I said- he created a sith order from the ground up. He didn't inherit any of those.

That should be 'yes,' he created a sith order with tens of thousands.

A lot of them were pretty strong. Some of them were *very* strong.

Like Legend noted, it takes a high-level force user to make a force barrier, and it was a common technique of his senior sith, even ones not in his inner circle. Krayt's elite sith were quite strong.

Even non-elite, Kruhl was considered expendable and he was still strong enough to sneak into Bastion and give Fel a fight.

Of course in a big order there's plenty of rank and file, but that's true of literally every big sith order so I don't know where you're going with that. They had a good number of powerful sith.

3 years? Funny, that's about the same amount of time it took for Krayt to defeat the Alliance- much bigger than the Republic of the KotoR at that- and reduce them to a nomad fleet, and destroy the majority of the Jedi order, sending the rest into hiding to be hunted down.

Notably, a sizable chunk of the Republic navy was with Revan from the start. As Neph said, the Republic at that point was pretty pants.

psmith81992

Some were strong. I count 4, maybe 5 in the entire order.

Actually, he never really defeated the alliance, nor the jedi. Seven years after he took over, things were still the same. In 3 years, Revan took his troops, nearly ousted the republic, and nearly wiped out the jedi order. Only Sidious' feat is comparable.

Q99

Originally posted by psmith81992
Some were strong. I count 4, maybe 5 in the entire order.

Krayt, Wyyrlok, Nihl, Talon, Maladi, Havok, Azard, Styfe, Saarai, were the ones highlighted in the first series. Notably three of those weren't even part of the inner circle, and one was still an apprentice.

And then in the next series, we're seeing more of them who weren't highlighted before, like Wredd, Wredd's master... it is entirely clear we have not seen near the whole roster of strong sith in the order, whereever Ania goes she's running into Sith masters not in the prior series. The RPG books also had a strong one in Galaxy of Intrigue called Vurik.

Not to mention, the Sith Troopers weren't exactly weak.

In 3 years, the Republican still had a territory of their own, and more Jedi council members than Krayt left standing, the Jedi were an active if wounded force until the Triumvirate hit.

'Nearly' ousted the Republic is not as much as Krayt did, and both of them were engaged in a Jedi purge that inflicted very heavy casualties.

Are you not familiar with Legacy? Because arguments about how Revan conquering a good chunk but not all of the Republic 'only being comparable to Sidious' makes me think not.

ares834

Originally posted by psmith81992
What's the difference between Revan taking Republic troops, and Krayt taking Empire troops? Revan did more in 3-5 years than Krayt planned for in 100.

Krayt conquered the galaxy though. Revan only got about a third of it.

Anyway, no doubt that Revan's success is impressive. I'd say he was probably the third most successful Sith after Krayt and Sidious.

Nephthys

Ahem, Vitiate?

psmith81992

Talon? Azard? Stryfe? I disagree...
We have no real information on the Sith Troopers other than shitty writing. I'm not sure if they can be considered when you're discussing Krayt's Sith Empire.

Before the sith took over, the Republic was already losing the battle. All Krayt did was destroy the Jedi headquarters and a few hundred Jedi. The rest scattered and he was no closer to his goal 7 years later.

It's more than Krayt did. Even after Krayt's death, the galaxy functioned just fine. What happened after Revan left for the Unknown Regions? The Republic was close to collapse and the jedi order was gone.

Intimately. More than you.

Krayt didn't conquer the galaxy, he installed himself as Emperor with the help of the Moffs, and his position at the top was tenuous at best, for 7 years.

ares834

Originally posted by psmith81992
Krayt didn't conquer the galaxy, he installed himself as Emperor with the help of the Moffs, and his position at the top was tenuous at best, for 7 years.

Sure he did. Krayt manipulated the Empire into conquering the galaxy and then made himself Emperor.

psmith81992

Making yourself emperor doesn't mean you conquered the galaxy. Sidious conquered the galaxy. Revan got closer than anyone else. Krayt was an emperor fighting against both the republic and parts of the empire.

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ahem, Vitiate?

Vitiate falls behind all three. He ended up only conquering half the galaxy.

Sidious and Krayt both conquered more.

Revan, meanwhile, conquered almost as much and nearly destroyed the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Making yourself emperor doesn't mean you conquered the galaxy. Sidious conquered the galaxy. Revan got closer than anyone else. Krayt was an emperor fighting against both the republic and parts of the empire.

Except, the Empire pretty much ruled the entire galaxy at the time.

psmith81992

That's why Krayt got no closer to his goals 7 years later? When you're fighting both the Empire in Exile, the Emperor Exile, the Jedi, and the Republic, you haven't conquered the galaxy.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by psmith81992
What's the difference between Revan taking Republic troops, and Krayt taking Empire troops?

As ares pointed out, Krayt ultimately achieved some measure of galactic domination whereas Revan only ever managed to reign over a third of the settled galaxy.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Revan did more in 3-5 years than Krayt planned for in 100.

No doubt. But Krayt more or less succeeded whereas Revan was taken out before he could achieve anything approaching galactic domination.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Again, Revan's war left barely 100 jedi alive, or was it less than 100. The Republic was completely fractured as well. That could easily be comparable to Sidious' 20-40 year grand plan no?

Not at all.

Palpatine was pretty much the author of the circumstances that led to his rule. He personally arranged for the ascent of players like Nute Gunray, Padme Amidala, Poggle the Lesser, etc. He personally orchestrated the rise of both the Confederacy and the Republic army. Then he pit the two against each other, micromanaging a galactic war to an absurd degree beneath the noses of the Jedi and all who might oppose him. At the end, the Senate applauded him when he became Emperor.

That level of chessmastering magnificent bastardry is lightyears ahead of any other Sith.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maybe

It seems likely to me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

I'm pretty sure he learned it from Cade. That was the whole reason he was interested in him as I recall (I read A Legacy comic. No 4 as I recall).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Evidence have been provided: Malak versus Revan (on Star Forge). That interesting power which Malak demonstrates on Star Forge is actually Dark Healing.

No it isn't. Its Force Drain.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But this is the latest ground reality of the lore now. Dark Council members are not just among the most powerful Sith of their respective eras but it is logical to assume that these individuals would be among the standouts of other eras as well.

Oh god..... >_<

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Analogy: a Dark Council member who is 5th best in his/her era (among thousands) can be 2nd best in another era (among thousands). Now extend this argument to entire galactic history and this individual is still likely to be above enormous number of Force-users holistically. Dark Council members have rather proven their bad@assry by becoming one unlike many other Force-users in different eras who rose to prominence in different ways.

Get my drift?

Just because some of the Council rank among the best does not indicate that all of them do. The ones that are really powerful are the guys with actual stuff to their names. There are others who have shown nothing particularly impressive that would be comparable.

And there is no era where the 5th best Dark Council member would be the 2nd best in it. Thats ridiculous fanboy rhetoric.

Lastly your last point ignores that some Sith are Dark Council members despite not being particularly strong i.e. Vowrawn and that guy from Revan. Politics play a role in the appointments as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not? Millions is an enormous figure in the context of evaluation of a Force-user.

Because as you point out, the majority of those are not very powerful. The vast majority of them are simply average Force users. Being above average isn't wildly impressive no matter how many there are.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force-users, by default, are among the most gifted potential warriors in the galaxy. Now if these number in millions (extraordinarily high count for co-existence of Force-users in galactic history by the way) and compete with each other for supremacy then the top ones among these are logically expected to be among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Since this setting is likely to stress and test Force-users in toughest possible manner which would not be the case in other eras. So if a Force-user proves his potential in an era which presents toughest competition for him/her to prove his/he metal then their is no room left for further argument against credibility of such a Force-user in historical context as well.

Dark Council members typically have to go through a lot to become one in the first place. Some Sith have spend their entire lives attempting to become one but couldn't. I do not dismiss the possibility of exceptional cases as well such as direct appointments as per need of the hour but even these individuals have to compete to survive in the long run.

This can easily be turned against them, as the massive competition means that huge quantities of Sith die, and therefore many Sith who might have become extremely powerful are cut down before their prime. Its easily possible for a Sith who might have been Dark Council material to be killed before they become powerful enough to achieve that position. There is a reason the Sith lose so often and its because they kill off so many of the best warriors in stupid power struggles.

Your logic is incorrect. Just because there was a large number of them competing does not make them logically superior to other eras. A Sith's power is not dependent on how much they have to struggle. There power comes from the Force. And that is a constant no matter what the era. The same amount of beings would be born who are powerful in the Force in the PT era as in the TOR era.

Theres also the fact that with so many Sith they can easily fall into the trap Revan recognised: That its simply for those who are less powerful to team up and kill those who are more powerful. This happens in the game a bunch of times.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Almost nothing to his name?

1. Became a Dark Council member after proving his worth
2. Recognized as among the greatest champions of the Sith
3. Known to perform remarkably well during combat situations

Aren't you not paying attention to provided information?

Legend, that is barely anything. Yes, it puts him as one of the best Sith in the Empire, but thats hardly any information. Thats even less information than was given for Revan back when we counted him as an unknown and banned him from threads because he's such an unknown!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Decimus is just like a Skywalker or Yoda or Windu or vice versa.

Goddamn it Legend. Could you try to be less of a TOR fanboy? This shits embarrassing yo.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not subscribe to this kind of reasoning when it is obvious that becoming a Dark Council member requires a Force-user to be extraordinarily gifted and possibly smart as well.

Yes, I agree. They are among the best at the time. That does not make them superior to those who were among the best of their era's.

Just being a Dark Council member is not enough. That is completely retarded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In-fact, from your list, Bane, Dooku and Maul haven't faced competition of the scope that most Dark Council member to prove their worth.

- Dooku really had it easy specially.
- Bane at-least worked his way up the ladder in a Sith Academy.
- Maul received tough training from Sidious but no competitors either.

In comparison, a typical Dark Council member had to go through following:-

1. Competition in the Sith Academy
2. Competition outside Sith Academy after graduation
3. Competition even after becoming a Dark Council member

Get it?

Who gives a shit? Facing competition does automatically make you powerful. Maul is one of the best trained Sith in history. Dooku is a complete lightsaber prodigy, one of the most powerful Jedi ever who became even more powerful as a Sith. And Bane would beat ANY Dark Council member in a fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this 1000th position is out of lets say 1 billion, everybody will be impressed.

So what, the 1000th still does not compare to the top hundred. If you want to use that definition then yeah, I'll admit: Decimus is maybe one of the most powerful Sith ever, that we know of.

That doesn't change the fact that almost any notable Jedi or Sith would beat the shit out of him in my estimation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These millions offered cutthroat competition that no other era would have offered. Also, you expect these millions to be inferior to thousands of other eras? You are not making sense here.

That does not automatically make them superior to those of other era's. The Jedi of the time did not have such competition and they are still defeating the Sith Order. And as I said that also means that a lot of powerful Sith are completely wasted in power struggles or killed prematurely.

Just because theres more competition does not make them superior. If they have the exact same training and they are naturally just as powerful theres no reason to believe the ones from the TOR era are their superiors just because there were more of them. Once AGAIN you are taking one point and trying to argue it far beyond its actual significance. This is a supremely bad habit of yours Legend and is why you're not taken that seriously here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That statement implies that Decimus have history of disrupting/undermining entire armies on his own. Now whether the army led by Decimus helped him afterwards (or not) to utterly rout the enemy forces is another story. This development would be a big deal for any single Force-user since a well-armed army is not a small threat by any stretch of imagination to undermine out in the open.

Powerful Force users can change the tides of battle. All this indicates is that yes he is a great warrior. This does not make him one of the best ever. Nor does it indicate that he's so powerful that he can defeat entire armies. Just that he is a significant figure on the battlefield. Like I would expect any powerful Sith to be.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I agree that Malgus's section, in the "source in question," represents only a small portion of his wartime journal. However, same source actually implies that Sidious knows much more about him in general. This is why Sidious notes this:

The writings that I have collected in this volume appear in their original forms. Many are fragments of what once were longer works, but the preservation of what remains is less important than the recognition of how they led to my new vision of the Sith Order. The following three books - The Weakness of Inferiors, The Book of Anger, and The Manipulation of Life - present how I achieved absolute power, how I shall maintain it through the agency of my Galactic Empire, and how I will reshape the galaxy throughout the ages to come.*

Ok. I'm not really sure what the point of this is, but ok.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus inspired Sidious to author "The Book of Anger," which is focused on the subject of learning to harness and utilize the power of the dark side in hugely impressive ways.

A glimpse of the aforementioned book:

http://i40.tinypic.com/s46fib.png

In contrast, Darth Bane and Mother Talzin mainly inspired Sidious to author "Weakness of Inferiors," while Darth Plagueis and Sorzus Syn inspired Sidious to author "The Manipulation of Life."

In "The Book of Anger," Sidious mentions Darth Bane only in the context of his Rule of Two philosophy.

Yes, I own the book. So therefore I know that the majority of the "Book of Anger" is Sidious talking about manipulating anger in others, whether using it to control the galactic populace or inspiring it in Force sensitives. That page is the only thing Malgus 'inspired' in Sidious. Shocking news: Anger makes Sith powerful. Wow. What an insight. Nice one Malgus. Really big breakthrough there. *clap clap clap*

Malgus did not contribute anything of note to Sidious other than the Force Maelstrom. The philosophy on anger is negligible at best and does not indicate anything about Malgus that justifies the manner in which you are wanking him here. Just because he taught Sidious about anger does not make him Banes superior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious also notes this:

"For it is in the anger Force-users are strongest."

We have actual evidence of Malgus being able to use his anger to bolster his capabilities to extreme levels. He is known to go "in the zone" in this manner and become virtually unstoppable at that moment. In this manner, Malgus utterly dominated many impressive adversaries during combat situations or inflicted lot of devastation.

Good for him. I'm not exactly seeing how that makes him better than Bane though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is some interesting information:

"The strength of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile."

Nice feat. You should add that to his respect thread.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is the case. See above.

No it is not. By your own admission Sidious merely referred to Malgus as 'one of' Vitiates best warriors. He can't be the finest warrior in Sidious' estimation is he refers to him as only being one of the best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not saying that anybody who impressed Sidious is the best ever. My intended point is that we need to focus on how much a Force-user impressed Sidious and in what particular manner.

The example of Ventress is a lame one because I don't think she inspired him or taught him anything. He actually regarded her as an underling.

No we don't. Sidious opinion is not something we particularly need to focus on. He wasn't there to see them fight. He doesn't know how powerful or skilled they were. His opinion is just that: His opinion. We might find it somewhat compelling but it is hardly important.

He referred to Ventress as an 'excellent warrior'. That's almost exactly what he called Malgus. They must be equal!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
See above.

I'm not seeing anything relevant above. Sidious gave it to Vader purely to help him overcome his issues. It has nothing to do with Malgus' skills as a warrior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have misunderstood my argument.

I have stated that Sidious regarded Malgus as the finest warrior among all the Sith he properly assessed. Heck, Sidious himself notes that Malgus was "one of the best" among those who served Vitiate. However, his assessment likely doesn't involves other paragons of TSE but is applicable to those whom he knew well and this list includes Bane.

Well that statement is wrong because Sidious never says he regards Malgus like that. And his assessment is irrelevant to Bane because he does NOT know him well. He doesn't know how powerful or skilled Bane is and has never seen him fight. Furthermore as I have said that quote does not compare the two at all. So you point is completely without merit.

If you think it is that important, revive the Bane vs Malgus thread. I will crush you on the matter a second time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I give importance to both opinions.

You should recognise them as just being opinions, and thus they are fallible.

BTW, I apologise if I come off as overly aggressive in this reply, but you really did prattle on here and it was quite irritating to reply to.

The_Tempest

Told you he was annoying.

Nephthys

I can't believe he's trying to argue freaking Darth Decimus is equal to Anakin, Mace or Yoda. ugh3

All he has to his name is:

1. Became a Dark Council member after proving his worth
2. Recognized as among the greatest champions of the Sith
3. Known to perform remarkably well during combat situations

The_Tempest

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Told you he was annoying.

thumb up

The ignore function is your friend. Give in to your angerignore function...

psmith81992

In terms of "chessmastering" sure. But in terms of efficiency, Revan achieved virtually the same result in a fraction of the time.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by psmith81992
In terms of "chessmastering" sure. But in terms of efficiency, Revan achieved virtually the same result in a fraction of the time.

Only if we become very, very liberal with the term "virtually."

Culling the Jedi ranks after a long period of intense warfare and destabilizing the Republic isn't "virtually" the same as culling and outlawing the Jedi ranks after 3 years of intense warfare that you personally engineered and replacing the Republic with a galactic empire that you rule as dictator-for-life.

Nephthys

Also Revan did have to advantage of the Star Forge.

Q99

Originally posted by psmith81992
Talon? Azard? Stryfe? I disagree...

Talon, the one who killed Marasiah Fel's master, repeatedly fought Cade (with some wins) and the major Sith and Imperial Knights, and who's TK is good enough to do this?

Azard? Fought Tries Sinde to a standstill, uses force barrier against big explosions and the collapse of an aquatic AT (which is a tremendous amount of sudden pressure), and such.

Stryfe? While the weakest of the hands, he did put up a fight against Cade, and did a mutual kill with Wolf Sazen.

And, you know, Sith Troopers fighting Jedi Masters and such repeatedly, and getting quite a few kills. We saw them heavily in action in Legacy War, and they all seemed to be on the same level.

I'm going to repeat my 'are unfamiliar with Legacy?' question.

You do realize he started the war, yes? Like, directly, it was his doing, and the Sith's overt presence played a large role in making it go badly for the Jedi/Republic so fast, too.

And he killed half the Jedi. Not a few hundred.

As the others have noted, in both numerical and proportional terms, it's less.

And after Krayt's first death, Wyyrlok destroyed Dac. Upon his revival was a giant "OH FORCE IF WE DON'T THROW EVERYTHING AT HIM NOW WE'RE ALL DEAD!" for everyone.

After his second death and the destruction/defection of so much of their forces in the final battles, things turned against the Sith, but that was conquered planets defecting after the capital fell as did several members of the Sith's top leadership (not just Krayt, but Wyyrlok, the Grand Moff, several other Moffs, and such).

The Jedi because of Nihilus, who killed hundreds of Jedi personally in a single event. Before Nihilus there were still a large number of Jedi left. Nihilus, Kreia, and Sion did a heck of a lot themselves.

And don't forget, before Revan started his campaign, the Mandalorian war had already caused a lot of casualties, and a very large chunk of the order outright defected to him, and before that the Jedi had a minor schism between the main Jedi and the Jedi Covenant in the KotoR comic. Krayt took a healthy order below half. Revan took a wounded order down a few pegs, but they still got to him, and it was the Triumvirate that almost wiped 'em.

And the Republic was still only close to collapse. The Alliance had fallen in Legacy. Note the difference. The Republic never actually fell, it just came close, the Alliance did a general surrender.

Apparently not, you keep getting basic facts wrong. You didn't know the Alliance had fallen, that Krayt made his order by himself, or that we'd seen the Sith Troopers in action.

By that logic, Palpatine didn't conquer the galaxy, he installed himself as the Emperor with the help of the Senate.

Keep in mind also that were it not for the Sith, Emperor was a position that lead a pretty small chunk of space. Krayt made it big by a war of his design, the Empire being effectively his puppet force in it, then took it over.

And Krayt's position was pretty stable, the Krayt Empire very solidly had the upper hand against both the Fel Empire and Stazi, it's just his health that was making it iffy, a point that was made repeatedly in the series.

Notably, Stazi did not consider the Fel Empire a military consideration of note, even with all his Imperial Knights, until Fel managed to get Bastion to defect to him. In other words, most of the 7 years were even easier for them than during the series, and even during the series it was the main power vs resistance movements.