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Rules:
1. Saber
2. Force
3. All-out

Matches:
1. Number-accordance dueling and an all-out battle between the remnants on both sides
2. Team fight

Sith Masters
1. Darth Revan
2. Darth Bane
3. Darth Tenebrous
4. Darth Sidious
5. Darth Maul
6. Darth Vader

Sith Apprentices
1. Darth Malak
2. Darth Zannah
3. Darth Plagueis
4. Dooku
5. Savage Opress
6. Starkiller

Team 1. You shouldn't have given one side Sidious, man.

Actually, in Clone Wars deleted scenes, Maul and Savage nearly crushed Sidious against a wall using Telekinesis. But all that stood between the brothers and victory against Sidious was a stupid light hanging from the ceiling.

^ No.

Team 1 wins imo. Starkiller, Plagueis and Zannah are all good, but team 1 is a bit stronger overall with Sidious and Bane as the standouts.

"crushed"? No, my friend. Sidious was still laughing his ass off at this point.

What versions of Vader, Bane, Sidious and Maul?

^ Yes. Don't get egotistic like always, Nephthys.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/10/13/star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-5-deleted-sequence

What versions, Taay'hai?

Originally posted by Taay'hai
^ Yes. Don't get egotistic like always, Nephthys.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/10/13/star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-5-deleted-sequence

Its gonna have to be a no still because its still only a deleted scene.

It shows us what was really going on while that scene with Obi-Wan and Bo-Katan played. Stop being so self-centered and inconsiderate.

@Intrepid37

Vader - TFU/RotJ
Bane - DoE
Sidious - TCW/RotS
Maul - TCW

Originally posted by Taay'hai
It shows us what was really going on while that scene with Obi-Wan and Bo-Katan played. Stop being so self-centered and inconsiderate.


I'm not being self-centered and inconsiderate. Er, if you think I'm being offensive then I apologise but that scene is still not canon and is completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not being self-centered and inconsiderate. Er, if you think I'm being offensive then I apologise but that scene is still not canon and is completely irrelevant.

It's canon and relevant in my thread, so sorry to inconvenience you. I don't care if you don't feel okay with that scene but that counts under MY rules. Maybe it's just hate for the Maul bros but I really don't care. My rules, and I get to use what evidence I have. Your arguments are done. Come to terms with that or please leave.

I assure you it is not that I don't feel okay with it or simply hate the Maul brothers. I'm wholly indifferent to them. My objection was purely based on the fact that it is a deleted scene and so is not canonical. Even if one were to argue that its merely filling in what happened between scenes, its contradicted by descriptions of the fight that state that Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority.' So please understand that I was not being biased and intolerant and meant no offense.

But if you want to count it in your thread I'm not sure if that matters.

The scene was only deleted because it was too long to fit in the episode:

"Like everything we do, it was actually tremendously longer, and we had to cut it much shorter to actually get it onscreen. But the fight inside the palace was probably three or four times as long between Sidious and them," - Dave Filoni to StarWars.com


And the fact that we know we are missing a big part of the fight at that point only contibutes to it's canonicity.

As for the 'never wavered from his position of superiority' quote, the scene does not contradict that quote anymore than the scene where Opress knocks Sidious off the balcony.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Actually, in Clone Wars deleted scenes, Maul and Savage nearly crushed Sidious against a wall using Telekinesis. But all that stood between the brothers and victory against Sidious was a stupid light hanging from the ceiling.

That's exaggerating the scene. It showed Maul packs a bigger punch than we thought, and it also shows Opress did get training from Maul as he was able to block FL now with his Saber unlike previous seasons.

But Sidious was still in control and winning the fight.

It's a deleted scene. It's about as canon as Grievous killing Shaak Ti. In other words, not at all.

Team 1 stomps.

Originally posted by ares834
It's a deleted scene. It's about as canon as Grievous killing Shaak Ti. In other words, not at all.

Making the Malgus thread now neph. It will need your assistance in terms of videos when done.

Originally posted by ares834
It's a deleted scene. It's about as canon as Grievous killing Shaak Ti. In other words, not at all.

Which is in turn about as canon as Anakin killing Shaak Ti.

Yeah, Filoni seems to not consider the scene canon either, considering he acts clueless as to what happens in the palace, stating the fight was "probably" four times as long, and instead seems to leave it to our imagination.

Furthermore, Maul being capable of outright overpowering Sidious in a force grip is contradicting to what we see in the beginning: Sidious overpowering both Maul and Savage at the same time, with them being unable to break his hold on them despite Sidious putting no effort in it whatsoever (and when Sidious casually force pulling them off the balcony as he was falling, with them being unable to do anything about it). But then suddenly Maul manages to overpower Sidious by himself, with Sidious being unable to break Maul's grip? Hell, Yoda wasn't even capable of holding Sidious down or directly grip Sidious with the force, which according to Sidious in The Book of the Sith, Requires more power and concentration than a force push. Also, when Maul was bathed in pure rage after watching his brother die, while Sidious stands back and laughs at Maul's suffering and then proceeds to taunt him about being replace, was absolutely defenseless against Sidious force powers after being disarmed.

So I'm not sure how canon the scene is, but I'm hesitant on accepting it because of it's contradictions, and the fact that Filoni doesn't really seem to acknowledge the details in the scene as absolute canon; he wouldn't make comments about Sidious' absolute dominance over them. As for the argument about Savage knocking Sidious over the balcony, that's because Sidious gave Savage that advantage by toying around, it wasn't because they were pressing Sidious, thus Savage knocking him over isn't really Sidious wavering from his position of superiority. However, Sidious being outright defenseless against Maul's grip, only being saved by a hanging light, is wavering away from his position of superiority. For instance, I use to play fight with my younger sister when we were growing up, and she would knock me off of balance a few times because I wasn't fighting her my hardest and I was just toying around with her, but that wasn't exactly me wavering from my position of superiority, it was me giving her moments to take advantage of by not taking her seriously. Now, if she had managed to pin me down, and I was unable to break free from her strength, then that would be me wavering from my position of superiority.

On him being 'saved by a light'- he did it with the force. Meaning, he could've done other stuff. The light was the most convenient, but I took it more to mean, 'the pair had him force-gripped, but he was able to resist to the extent that he could still do stuff.' Together they were able to get temporary superiority in brute force, but not to the extent he didn't have options, even when they're 'winning' they can't pin him down enough to actually win, he'll turn the tide and emerge victorious.

What else could he have done to take Maul's concentration away from gripping him? The room was pretty much empty; not a lot of options.

Furthermore, as I said Sidious being outright overpowered by Maul's grip is contradicting to everything that happens in the episode, and it contradicts the website confirming that Sidious never wavered away from his position of superiority. Being outright overpowered in the force and being unable to break free, would be losing his position of superiority, as it was something he was unable to prevent or break free from without the hanging light conveniently hanging there.

It's two-on-one, being temporarily overpowered isn't that big a deal.


And he could affect them directly- there was a scene in the legacy comics where one sith was being lifted and twisted in the force, so the other started directly hurting *her* with the force.

It is when less than a minute early he overpowered both of them at once while laughing.

Were they both force-pushing him together when that happened?

-7hBZNsPnyg

1.45

Judge for yourself. They appear to be straining hard enough.

Neph, I think Q99 is talking about the unfinished scene.

No, Q99, it was just Maul, which is a big contradiction to how we see Sidious handle them at the same time with casual ease, with them being unable to break free, or how Sidious easily force pulls them as he was falling, with them being unable to defend against it.

Originally posted by Nephthys

1.45

Judge for yourself. They appear to be straining hard enough.

Ah ha, so no, they were definitely not force-pushing back.


He caught them before they put a defense up. They were up against the wall in a disadvantaged position before they began straining.

In the deleted scene, Maul did it while Sidious was busy doing lightning, not a force-push-tug-of-war or anything. Of course that would work.


So it says to me, Sidious can handle them both if he catches them suddenly, but if they catch him off guard, Maul can push him... but not to the extent it prevents him from doing more indirect force hijinks.

Even with the scene being non-canon, it fits with the other material and doesn't contradict Sidious's double-push in the episode in the slightest. Getting force-pushed suddenly doesn't mean you aren't strong enough to force-push and hold the person who did so while he's doing something else.


Fights having some back and forth, even with stronger against weaker, make more sense than some people here give credit.

But Shaak Ti being killed is contradicted and taken out because CW already had her killed off. This is different. I personally count it as canon, as it was only cut due to the length of the episode.

Though, don't get me wrong, I don't consider Maul to be a rival of Sidious whatsoever--But realistically it's not that improbable that he got a single moment to himself for the fight, especially when Sidious was being overly-overconfident.

@Q99

You don't think Maul and Savage were using the force to try to break free from Sidious' hold/grip?

When prepared for battle, force users usually surround themselves with force auras, which is why it's harder to directly TK another force user unless your capable of penetrating their auras. There is no reason to assume Savage had his force defense lowered considering the stare of un-trust he was giving Sidious the moment he entered the palace, and there is no reason to believe Maul was not suspecting an attack from Sidious, considering Sidious flat out hints to it by accusing Maul of attempting to deceive him. I don't see how they were caught by surprise. And even when Sidious had them pinned, they were unable to break free from his grip, which suggests a huge gap in power between Sidious and both of them combined. Then we also see Sidious easily force pull them as he was falling, which means he had to break through their defenses (force aura) in order to grip them and pull them off, which means he had to directly TK them. Force push is not the same as directly TKing, as Sidious says in The Book of the Sith that gripping something takes more concentration and power than a force push, which makes since considering you have to target the specific thing/person to use the force on.

What Maul did to Sidious in that scene was not a mere force push, it was him directly overpowering Sidious with TK, which contradicts what just happened moments earlier. It contradicts how Sidious casually force pulls them over the balcony as he was falling. Sidious can easily overpower both Maul and Savage at the same time, and they are powerless to defend against it or to break free from his grip, yet Maul turns around and has the power to overpower Sidious? It doesn't make sense, especially when a Maul bathed in pure rage was powerless to defend against or break free from Sidious gripping him and ragdolling him all over the place. It contradicts what we see in the episode, what we hear from Filoni regarding Sidious' absolute dominance over them, and what the website confirms about Sidious never wavering from his position of superiority. Plus, the animation to the scene wasn't even complete. So I'm given every reason as to why I shouldn't accept it as canon, and given none as to why I should.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But Shaak Ti being killed is contradicted and taken out because CW already had her killed off. This is different. I personally count it as canon, as it was only cut due to the length of the episode.

CW didn't kill her off. Her official death is in TFU.




Exactly.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say killed off. I wasn't paying attention as I was typing. I meant the CW show already made it so she was left defeated and not taken hostage.

Originally posted by ares834
It's a deleted scene. It's about as canon as Grievous killing Shaak Ti. In other words, not at all.

I'd say given the context for why it was deleted as stated clearly by Filoni, and given that there is a missing part of the fight in the episode, that is about as Canon as Yoda disarming Sidious in ROTS.

And we can see from the scene that it wasn't specifically deleted, but actunfinished. Much like Yoda disarming Sidious was never filmed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, Filoni seems to not consider the scene canon either, considering he acts clueless as to what happens in the palace, stating the fight was "probably" four times as long, and instead seems to leave it to our imagination.

Furthermore, Maul being capable of outright overpowering Sidious in a force grip is contradicting to what we see in the beginning: Sidious overpowering both Maul and Savage at the same .

Filoni knows exactly what happens in the palace. Hence he knows just how long it was.

The animatric version is slow. So the pining Sidious could have ended up being for just a second in the final version. And he was probably just caught off guard anyway.

Force users get caught off guard all the time. Unless you think Yoda getting knocked out by Sidious's Lightning was Yoda's best possible attempt to block it. Our that Opress was actually more powerful than Dooku and Ventress combined when he began force choking them both.

Maul cannot do that bro. Not possible. Has never happened, will never happen.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd say given the context for why it was deleted as stated clearly by Filoni, and given that there is a missing part of the fight in the episode, that is about as Canon as Yoda disarming Sidious in ROTS.

And we can see from the scene that it wasn't specifically deleted, but actunfinished. Much like Yoda disarming Sidious was never filmed.

Yoda disarming Sidious is in the script which was written by George Lucas.

A deleted scene from TCW does not compare.

If Maul can move a big object with his strength in the Force then he may also have sufficient strength to put a powerful Force-user in a choke-hold, even if temporarily. Though I believe that a powerful Force-user can break Maul's choke-hold by resisting it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its gonna have to be a no still because its still only a deleted scene.

Still it does suggest the directors imagined this fight to be far closer than posters here would suggest. (perhaps a mid diff rather than a low diff)

Not really:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dave Filoni gets it.

http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/images/ep3_sidious.jpg

Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

Dave Filoni: At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul cannot do that bro. Not possible. Has never happened, will never happen.

Maul could easily do that, and here's why:


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Force users get caught off guard all the time. Unless you think Yoda getting knocked out by Sidious's Lightning was Yoda's best possible attempt to block it. Our that Opress was actually more powerful than Dooku and Ventress combined when he began force choking them both.


Stronger force users being pushed or hit isn't rare. It's just a lot of the time, their strength means the weaker cannot actually take sufficient advantage before things are turned back around.

The problem isn't Maul tagging Sidious. Anyone can tag anyone because no one is on their guard at all times.

The problem is Maul keeping Sidious pinned against his will.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really:



Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

Dave Filoni: At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.


A fair point. I concede that point.

Originally posted by Q99
Maul could easily do that, and here's why:





Stronger force users being pushed or hit isn't rare. It's just a lot of the time, their strength means the weaker cannot actually take sufficient advantage before things are turned back around.
No man. Maul can't do that. I man, can you imagine Dooku choking Yoda?

Again, the problem isn't Maul tagging Sidious. It's pretty well established that Sidious wasn't taking the fight seriously and such overconfidence can breed tactical errors. I can see Maul and/or Savage nailing Sidious if he has his guard down.

The problem is the idea that Maul and/or Savage can keep Sidious pinned against his will.

Think about Dooku choking Yoda. It cannot happen.

No, but I could see him push Yoda. Choking means he'd be keeping Yoda against his will.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Think about Dooku choking Yoda. It cannot happen.

Like Savage choking Dooku couldn't happen?

Yes, which is what Maul did to Sidious, which is why it is impossible.

Also, Dooku cannot push Yoda.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Like Savage choking Dooku couldn't happen?

I never said that Savage choking Dooku couldn't have happened and I have never had a problem with it.

Assuming if each number faces it's own padawan...the only victor of the apprentices would be Plagueis. Masters pwn.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni knows exactly what happens in the palace. Hence he knows just how long it was.

The animatric version is slow. So the pining Sidious could have ended up being for just a second in the final version. And he was probably just caught off guard anyway.

Force users get caught off guard all the time. Unless you think Yoda getting knocked out by Sidious's Lightning was Yoda's best possible attempt to block it. Our that Opress was actually more powerful than Dooku and Ventress combined when he began force choking them both.



Opress' raw power may very well rival Dooku's, but his mastery and his ability to unleash it and channel it is lacking which is what puts Dooku above him in terms of the force. However, in a fit of pure rage and with extreme effort, the yeah, nothing contradicts the idea of Opress being able to momentarily overpower Dooku and Ventress. Now, if Savage consistently overpowered both Dooku and Ventress with casual ease, then yeah that would suggest he is far above them in terms of force power.

In that deleted scene, Maul didn't just push Palpatine off of balance with a force push, he actually overpowered him, with Palpatine only being able to break free from by taking Maul's concentration away by dropping a hanging light which just happened to conveniently be hanging there. Whether it happened a second or not, the scene depicted Sidious as being defenseless against Maul's power until he took his concentration away, which contradicts everything I listed earlier in this thread.

Filoni seems to disregard the details in the unfinished scene, considering all his statements regarding Sidious absolute dominance over them. And the context of Filoni's statement seemed more like he was giving us a probable estimation of how long the fight could have been in the palace, especially since the unfinished scene, being slow paced as you said, wouldn't be 3 or 4 times longer than the fight outside of the palace. The animation of that part of the scene wasn't even finished, so for all we know, some of Filoni's intentions could have changed, considering that some of the final version of the animation was finished well before the season even started. Just like he originally intended for Maul's and Viszla's fight to be a lot longer and harder fought than what was aired, which would be just as stupid (hell, Viszla being able to land multiple physical blows on Maul is stupid as is anyway, IMO, considering Maul is fast enough to block and evade multiple blaster bolts at once, so being on the receiving end of multiple elbows and punches from Viszla is not just a contradiction to the speed we see from Maul in the EU but also a contradiction to the speed we see from Maul in TWC episodes, but that's another issue entirely, but it was an entertaining fight nonetheless).

All in all, as I said, there are so many reasons given as to why I shouldn't have to accept the details in the unfinished scene, and none as to why I have to.

This is a stomp by the Sith Masters. Having Bane and Sidious on the same team isn't fair.

Please. It wasn't a force-push-o-war, Sidious was not pushing back. Sidious was doing lightning against both brothers when Maul pushed him, and then when he was against the wall he moved a little but wasn't shown force-pushing back either.


You phrase it as if they went head-to-head with the force and that's not what happened. Maul caught him while he was doing something else, then he was in a position where defense is hard, then he used his force power on something other. At no point did they directly struggle force-vs-force.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
No man. Maul can't do that. I man, can you imagine Dooku choking Yoda?

Yes, easily. I mean, why not?

As long as Yoda is busy doing something else at the time and thus doesn't defend against it, he could quite handily.


It's not like DBZ power level, having higher force power doesn't make you immune even if you aren't paying attention. It means when you put your power against theirs, you'll win. You still have to actively put your power in the way to do so and it doesn't mean they won't be able to do some stuff with their power before you do so.

Q99, instead of repeating your same argument, how about you read mine and consider it, because I'm getting the impression that you just skimmed it or ignored it.

Sidious, being miles ahead of Darth Maul in terms of raw force power and mastery, should be able to break free from Maul's grip with no effort at all. Majority of the times in SW when we see a force user struggle to break free from another force user's grip, is either because they are rivals or one of them is just superior to the other. Maul is neither of these according to several sources, Filoni's own statements, and the fact that Sidious can easily pin both Maul and Savage at the same time despite their efforts to break free, therefore, Maul alone shouldn't be able to outright over power Sidious with Sidious being unable to break free. Yoda can easily grip and paralyze Ventress with a simple gesture and Ventress is unable to do a thing about it. Now it would be stupid if Ventress can turn around and do the same thing to Yoda unless she rivals Yoda. Yoda should easily be able to break free from Ventress' grip even if he is caught by surprise.

I'm reading it, I am just disagreeing with it.

I want to make that very explicit.

Conversely, I don't think you're absorbing what I'm saying.



Except, no, it still takes effort to resist a force user's power who is lesser than yours. Again, this isn't DBZ.



Their incredibly paltry efforts to break free? They were physically struggling a bit, but we didn't see them use the force in response.

They did not have their hands out force-pushing back. They were not using their full power by any means, because they were pinned.


Again, the effects of force-use are what someone actually does. And if one is in a bad position, then it can be hard for them to actually do their full power. Being more powerful is not a passive thing, it affects your output but you still have to both be in a position to output it and actually do so.



Maul did not outpower Sidious. Outpowering implies force-to-force- this is not what happened.

Maul hit Sidious with the force while Sidious was doing something other than defending. Then Sidious in turn chose to be clever in his defense rather than directly using the force against the push.

At no point during that exchange did they go power-to-power.

On your complaint about ignoring, I mentioned that fact before but you seem to have skimmed or ignored that.




Yoda, once he does something, would be able to break free, much as Sidious did (though either indirect means ala the clip, or more direct means). This does not mean he could not be grabbed in the first place, because higher force power is not a passive effect. One breaks free when one outputs a power sufficient to counter the effect, not before.

That is how the force works, that is how the force has always worked. This is how, for example, a task force of Jedi, all weaker than Revan, can beat Revan.

1. Revan > Malak
2. Bane < Zannah
3. Plagueis > Tenebrous
4. Darth Sidious > Dooku
5. Darth Maul = Savage Opress
6. Darth Vader < Starkiller

I get the feeling apprentices are underestimated.

Originally posted by Q99
Their incredibly paltry efforts to break free? They were physically struggling a bit, but we didn't see them use the force in response.

Uh.... the Force is invisible.....

Its only logical that if they were straining against it, they were straining against it with the Force as well. They aren't retarded, they're not going to break Sidious' hold physically, its common sense to assume they were using the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh.... the Force is invisible.....

Its only logical that if they were straining against it, they were straining against it with the Force as well. They aren't retarded, they're not going to break Sidious' hold physically, its common sense to assume they were using the Force.

Technically you can see the Force. Kao Cen Darach used a very much visible Force Push vs Vindican.

Satele had her elaborate overkill TK blasts on Malgus.

The Starkiller Clone could disintegrate stuff with Repulse, and you can see that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh.... the Force is invisible.....

Its only logical that if they were straining against it, they were straining against it with the Force as well. They aren't retarded, they're not going to break Sidious' hold physically, its common sense to assume they were using the Force.


Using the force still has signs, though. Sidious moved his arm. Normally with TK there is a motion or something.

Additionally, TK with the force is normally audible. There was no increased sound to indicate counter-TK.



They aren't stupid, but they also were not demonstrating signs of being in a position to direct the force effectively yet. They'd only been pinned for maybe two-three seconds, and being pinned would also be quite uncomfortable (they were effectively being crushed). Often in positions like that it takes characters some time to gather up enough concentration to use the force, and when they do so, even if unable to make a hand gesture (the most common indicator of TK), they normally have a look of concentration or focus, which was absent.


You are assuming they used TK defense, but they were caught by surprise by the initial push and we have no actual sign of them doing so, just assumption.


Furthermore in Sidious's case specifically, we have even less reason to believe he TK-resisted, since he instead just chuckled and TK-did-something-else. Knowing he could drop the chandelier, why waste effort with brute force?

We additionally know at the time of the initial push, he definitely wasn't raising a defense, because he was doing lightning.


You two are just assuming that anti-TK push defense is always on and doesn't involve a hand motion or concentration like staring intently on the thing they want moved, even though it's never been shown to work like that, when someone has successfully defended there's always been some sign they're doing it (be it gesture or other) and there wasn't in these instances.

We could even say they may have been using force-strength in order to try and raise an arm to properly do TK, but none of the signs of TK were there.

What Neph said.

We didn't see Sidious use the force to slam them against the windows either. Maybe they just jumped to a window that had superglue.

Lmao.

Originally posted by XRKun
Technically you can see the Force. Kao Cen Darach used a very much visible Force Push vs Vindican.

Satele had her elaborate overkill TK blasts on Malgus.

The Starkiller Clone could disintegrate stuff with Repulse, and you can see that.

The Force is sometimes portrayed as being visible, but thats only a stylistic choice to help viewers. The Force is invisible telekinesis/etc in most aspects.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What Neph said.

We didn't see Sidious use the force to slam them against the windows either. Maybe they just jumped to a window that had superglue.

We saw Sidious make clear motions. As is normal with force push.


TK, whether offensively or defensively, always has visual cues and signs. Not just air-ripple effects, but rather what the character does.


You're not only assuming they defended signlessly, despite the history of that not being the case, but that such signless defense is automatic, which is definitely not the case.


Even assuming it can happen signlessly- which I do want to be very clear is just something you two are assuming- there's still the matter that the brothers were caught by surprise by Sidious's double-push, and that Sidious was in the middle of doing force offense at the time of Maul's push. Both would've connected anyway even if you were right which, again, you're just assuming and there's no actual signs, visible, audible, or other of this happening nor is TK defense portrayed that way elsewhere, and being in the middle of being crushed makes any force-use harder, and knowing you can do something small and clever instead makes it unnecessary.

Savage wrecks a Mandalorian jail cell in the previous episode by merely flexing his arms. And we see both he and Maul visibly squirming, flexing, and straining against the window. The idea that they weren't trying to use any and all means to throw off Sidious's hold is incredible (literally).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Savage wrecks a Mandalorian jail cell in the previous episode by merely flexing his arms. And we see both he and Maul visibly squirming, flexing, and straining against the window. The idea that they weren't trying to use any and all means to throw off Sidious's hold is incredible (literally).

But using the force takes concentration, and the maximum concentration one can rally while being crushed, on very short notice, can be quite different than their max.

Opress broke free while flexing his arms while otherwise under no discomfort or disadvantage to speak of, and an arm-flex is hardly his max power/concentration either, he's done bigger force moves than that.


They were squirming, but it was only a second or two. Big force powers often take more time than that.



Again, you're just assuming that not only were they defending, but at max power, despite being caught by surprise.

What about Vader smacking Luke with objects while lightsaber fighting him? Or Sidious manipulating the pod he's standing on without gesturing at it? Hell, right before the fight Sidious continuously chokes out two Mando's with only a small opening hand wave. Force users can use the Force without needing to make physical movements you know.

We see Savage lift a couple of heavy obelisks in "Witches of the Mist" while Dooku zaps him. So unless Sidious's Force grip is causing Savage more discomfort than Dooku's lightning, I don't see why he would be incapable of mustering any sort of defense or countermeasure.

No one ever said anything about "max power." What's being said is that they don't need free use of their arms to use the Force and were visibly straining beneath his hold.

There's more reason to believe they were trying to get free than not.



Not to mention that when he waltzes into the throne room, he pins the guards, chokes them out, and releases them without any gesture.

Good example- Big gestures, and it took some time to do so under the zaps.

Did he do so? Yes. Was it easy/automatic/quick? No. And that was a deliberate exercise.


Originally posted by Nephthys
What about Vader smacking Luke with objects while lightsaber fighting him?

I'm pretty sure he motioned with his saber while doing so.




A small wave is still a wave.



Sure. Luke does on Hoth. It normally appears quicker and easier to do with, though, and note how all the gestureless feats are extremely small ones that are easy by that character's standards? We're talking 'drawing on full power within moments of being thrown into a wall and still in the process of being crushed,' after all.

Not just a little thing, but full power.



You guys are the ones acting like it's automatic and easy for a force user to unleash their maximum power quickly and easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda disarming Sidious is in the script which was written by George Lucas.

A deleted scene from TCW does not compare.

It's almost a perfect comparison.

Yoda disarming Sidious happens in a scene of the fight we know is missing and we know was originally written.

Same with the deleted Maul scene.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really:



Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

Dave Filoni: At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.

Are you really going to take that completely literally, when he did get touched, at least twice?

If he can get caught off guard and knocked off a balcony by Opress, then he can get caught off guard and Force pushed against a wall by Maul Imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem isn't Maul tagging Sidious. Anyone can tag anyone because no one is on their guard at all times.

The problem is Maul keeping Sidious pinned against his will.

Again the animatrics version seemed slow. It could have only been for a second in the final scene.



And hey to everyone, it's not me and Q99 who were developing that scene. Even if I was making the scene it wouldn't have even occurred to me to have Maul Force Push Sidious. But If it's to be declared non canon then it should be done on the grounds of it being deleted, and not on the grounds of not liking the scene, or thinking it's silly.

Filoni made it clear those scenes were only deleted because the fight was too long to fit into the episode.

Oh, oh yes, that's right. I totally don't work for Lucasfilms and totally didn't make that scene.

Any accusations otherwise are complete crazy talk, and you should banish all thoughts from your heads.

Because I didn't.

Just to be entirely clear on the matter.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm pretty sure he motioned with his saber while doing so.

He does it while in a saberlock at one point. No gesture. And afterwards he doesn't exactly gesture as just point his lightsaber down and stand there.

Originally posted by Q99
A small wave is still a wave.

He continuously does it without needing to make physical motions. And as Tempest pointed out, he does it again while entering Mauls throne room.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure. Luke does on Hoth. It normally appears quicker and easier to do with, though, and note how all the gestureless feats are extremely small ones that are easy by that character's standards? We're talking 'drawing on full power within moments of being thrown into a wall and still in the process of being crushed,' after all.

Not just a little thing, but full power.

In Swtor, the HoT pushes back the Emperor without needing to gesture. In RoT Bane unleashes a Force Wave that floors his opponents while ripping through their shields without gesturing. Combatants create Force barriers all the time without needing physical movement. Gesturing simply makes it easier, but a Force user can use the Force without it and do so at their full power.

Originally posted by Q99
You guys are the ones acting like it's automatic and easy for a force user to unleash their maximum power quickly and easily.

Maul and Savage had a full 5 seconds. More than enough time for a Force user with enhanced reflexes to react. And they were not in any noticeable pain or discomfort that would hinder them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's almost a perfect comparison.

Yoda disarming Sidious happens in a scene of the fight we know is missing and we know was originally written.

Same with the deleted Maul scene.

Perhaps in your dreams. The RotS script is taken as canon be George Lucas wrote it. I'm fairly certain its specifically noted in the guides to canon as being an exception, so long as it doesn't contradict the movie. The scene is question is merely a deleted scene from the cartoon, it does not hold the same weight as something from Lucas. The two are incomparable.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Are you really going to take that completely literally, when he did get touched, at least twice?

If he can get caught off guard and knocked off a balcony by Opress, then he can get caught off guard and Force pushed against a wall by Maul Imo.

Yes, since it comes from the freaking producer of the show. Surprisingly, I do. His interpretation of the fight is a bit more relevant than yours. Since he, you know, ****ing made it.

Sidious let Opress hit him and was not inconvenienced in the slightest by it. Particularly noteworthy is how Sidious is merely punted back like a rubber ball despite Savages horns (which skewered Galia). Savage did nothing to him. Maul advanced through his full blast lightning and pasted him to a wall. Again, not comparable at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And hey to everyone, it's not me and Q99 who were developing that scene. Even if I was making the scene it wouldn't have even occurred to me to have Maul Force Push Sidious. But If it's to be declared non canon then it should be done on the grounds of it being deleted, and not on the grounds of not liking the scene, or thinking it's silly.

It is not that we do not like it, its that its completely contradictory to the rest of the fight, the fact that Sidious pwned both of them less than a minute earlier with TK and what was said about the fight outside of it. It is not that we think its 'silly', its that it is completely illogical, inconsistent and retarded.

Others have explained this to you guys many times, so I'm unsure of why you're still confused about that.

^



Not to mention that I actually enjoyed the delete sequence, hence why I posted it here.

I would have loved to see more of that fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps in your dreams.

Your not really pulling the fanboy shit over me on this are you? I didn't make that scene. It was made at Lucasarts. Get over it.


Originally posted by Nephthys
The RotS script is taken as canon be George Lucas wrote it. I'm fairly certain its specifically noted in the guides to canon as being an exception, so long as it doesn't contradict the movie. The scene is question is merely a deleted scene from the cartoon, it does not hold the same weight as something from Lucas. The two are incomparable.


I get that that Lucas's words are the highest canon. But keep your arguments consistent. If a scene that Lucas decides not to include is canon to Lucas's film on the basis that it's a missing scene and possible within the context of the film, then by the same principle a scene made by TCW crew, which shows a part of the fight missing from the episode, which we even know was only cut out due to the length of the fight in the 20 minute episode, then that should also be canon within the context of TCW.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, since it comes from the freaking producer of the show. Surprisingly, I do. His interpretation of the fight is a bit more relevant than yours. Since he, you know, ****ing made it.

Yeah but you ignore that convenient fact when it comes to the deleted scene which he also would have ****ing created, and has outright stated he's only left it out due to the length of the fight.

Again try consistency in your arguments.

Oh and yeah lets not forget that same ****ing guy who made it also flat out said Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin/Kolar/Fisto. A fact you and others like to ignore he said. And yes his interpretation is also more relevant than yours.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious let Opress hit him

Oh really? He just let him **** him off the balcony? Way to state your very subjective opinions as fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and was not inconvenienced in the slightest by it. Particularly noteworthy is how Sidious is merely punted back like a rubber ball despite Savages horns (which skewered Galia). Savage did nothing to him.

I'm not arguing that it did some kind of damage to Sidious. I'm flat out telling you your frigging deluded if you think that doesn't count as "touching him" in the more literal sense.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul advanced through his full blast lightning and pasted him to a wall. Again, not comparable at all.

He blocked half his lightning with his Lightsaber. Big deal. Then he caught Sidious off guard.



Originally posted by Nephthys
It is not that we do not like it, its that its completely contradictory to the rest of the fight, the fact that Sidious pwned both of them less than a minute earlier with TK and what was said about the fight outside of it. It is not that we think its 'silly', its that it is completely illogical, inconsistent and retarded.

Ah right so now YOUR INTERPRETATION is more canon than that of TCW crew who were making that scene. Because clearly they're retarded, but you understand everything about Force powers, and your interpretation on the subject is the final canon on the matter.

It's not more contradictory than Opress frigging choking Dooku and Ventress combined when just seconds earlier he was being he was being completely tooled by Dooku's force powers.

The difference being Sidious escaped from his pin, and didn't then run away from Maul. On the contrary he went on to batter both brothers together.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Others have explained this to you guys many times, so I'm unsure of why you're still confused about that.

Don't give me that shit that others have explained it to me. Either take me on yourself, or stop whining. Q99 has exhaustively explained to you in fact, citing examples, of how more powerful force users can get caught off guard by lesser powerful ones. But your the one who seems confused about that and unable to comprehend how Maul could pin Sidious off guard for a couple of seconds.

Let's all accept Maul's inferiority to his master and move on.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Let's all accept Maul's inferiority to his master and move on.


Of course he's inferior. Him and Opress combined are clearly inferior. That doesn't mean neither of them are capable of packing a nice punch now and then.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your not really pulling the fanboy shit over me on this are you? I didn't make that scene. It was made at Lucasarts. Get over it.

Um, no I wasn't. That was merely standard smack talk.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I get that that Lucas's words are the highest canon. But keep your arguments consistent. If a scene that Lucas decides not to include is canon to Lucas's film on the basis that it's a missing scene and possible within the context of the film, then by the same principle a scene made by TCW crew, which shows a part of the fight missing from the episode, which we even know was only cut out due to the length of the fight in the 20 minute episode, then that should also be canon within the context of TCW.

No. Because the sources are not consistent. Something originating from Lucas is not consistent with something originating from TCW crew. I think you need a little reminder of canon policy:

"G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie)."

The script and deleted scenes are exceptions from the rules because George Lucas is an exception to ALL rules. He is the absolute authority and elements originating from him are likewise above other aspects of the mythos.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but you ignore that convenient fact when it comes to the deleted scene which he also would have ****ing created, and has outright stated he's only left it out due to the length of the fight.

Again try consistency in your arguments.

Oh and yeah lets not forget that same ****ing guy who made it also flat out said Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin/Kolar/Fisto. A fact you and others like to ignore he said. And yes his interpretation is also more relevant than yours.

I don't give a shit. It is a deleted scene and is not canon at all. And he did not create it, as it was not finished. Also I don't recall you ever proving he was specifically talking about that scene when he said he's left parts of the fight out.

He only did so because he wanted to let him put up a better fight. If Sidious had wanted to kill him as quickly as those guys, he would have opened the fight with Force Lightning and reduced Opress to a charred husk or ash in an instant. You guys love to go on about how he 'caught them off guard' at the start of the fight but if that's true then it just proves that Sidious could have easily killed both of them on the spot were he so inclined.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh really? He just let him **** him off the balcony? Way to state your very subjective opinions as fact.

It isn't really subjective when I have canon sources saying he never wavered in his superiority. Pro tip: Someone hitting you without your consent, would be wavering in your position of superiority.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not arguing that it did some kind of damage to Sidious. I'm flat out telling you your frigging deluded if you think that doesn't count as "touching him" in the more literal sense.

It doesn't count because canon says it doesn't count.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He blocked half his lightning with his Lightsaber. Big deal. Then he caught Sidious off guard.

Sidious wasn't freaking off guard. His precog is so far above theirs that in the novel its said he can easily anticipate all their actions. Plus Maul was advancing through his lightning. What, do you think Sidious thought he was going to give him a peck on the cheek? These arguments always seem to think that these characters have brain damage for some reason.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah right so now YOUR INTERPRETATION is more canon than that of TCW crew who were making that scene. Because clearly they're retarded, but you understand everything about Force powers, and your interpretation on the subject is the final canon on the matter.

Yes. Because that scene is not canon at all and my interpretation uses, you know, actual canon to support itself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not more contradictory than Opress frigging choking Dooku and Ventress combined when just seconds earlier he was being he was being completely tooled by Dooku's force powers.

Dooku was tooling him for a specific reason: Savage couldn't block his lightning. And him choking them was also for a specific reason: Savage went berserk and got a huge rage boost.

This doesn't apply to Maul because we see that later on Maul is absolutely owned by Sidious even with a huge rage boost from seeing his brother die. So whats the reason Maul could push Sidious up a wall? Oh, he was off guard. For several seconds. Because thats not incredibly stupid.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't give me that shit that others have explained it to me. Either take me on yourself, or stop whining. Q99 has exhaustively explained to you in fact, citing examples, of how more powerful force users can get caught off guard by lesser powerful ones. But your the one who seems confused about that and unable to comprehend how Maul could pin Sidious off guard for a couple of seconds.

Q99's argument holds no water. Even if Sidious was off guard, ignoring how illogical, contradictory and stupid that would be, he should still have been able to break Mauls hold on him since he is far more powerful than he is. You cannot argue that he was 'off guard' for several second when he has precognition and superhuman reflexes.

^ This is the Neph I remember and prefer. Before the heresy.

In Sidious's cases, I think he didn't try *because* he saw a more effortless way in the chandalier.


You're still equating 'could've' with 'did.' It's like if someone throws an object at a force user, they *can* catch it with the force, but cutting it with a lightsaber, or simply dodging.

Sidious picked a low-resistance path that'd mess with his foe in preference to counter-pushing.

The most interesting part of this topic so far is SIdious_66 getting pinned down by his hot younger sister.

But anyways:

Darth Revan < Darth Malak
Darth Bane ? Darth Zannah (Probably give it to Bane)
Darth Tenebrous < Darth Plagueis
Darth Sidious > Darth Tyranus
Darth Maul > Savage Opress
Darth Vader ? Starkiller (Wasn't it said that Starkiller could only stalemate Vader in a saber fight)

Apprentices: 2
Masters: 2
Uncertain: 2

It seems like a tie if we only look at one-on-one match-ups.

^

Darth Revan < Darth Malak

WTF? Revan is far more powerful then Malak. Bane and Zannah are close. Somehow, I consider Bane as more powerful, even if he already lost to her in a fair duel.

As I remember, Plagueis in his prime was said, to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history in his era (ROTS Sidious was even more powerful, so it looks like Plagueis is top2).

There is no doubt, that Sidious is more powerful then Dooku, and Maul is more powerful then Opress.

I'm not sure about Vader vs Starkiller, but Sith Masters will win this one either way.

Originally posted by Zett
^

Darth Revan < Darth Malak

WTF? Revan is far more powerful then Malak.

Drew K. confirmed that Revan was more powerful than an amplified Malak, given that LS Revan is canon and therefore he had to contend with a Sith Lord running around, leeching captured Jedi. And no, he didn't use stims and mines.

The battle was still considered "epic" though, so buffed Malak is at least a struggle for Revan.

Yeah, but thats Reborn Revan, who is more powerful than Darth Revan. According to Malak, Darth Revan is weaker than himself. Not sure if I buy that but Darth Revan isn't superior to Malak just because his future self is.

No, Malak was always firmly below Revan either way. That's why he took a knee and that's why he stabbed him in the back.

Not how he tells it.

Last I checked, Revan sabered his jaw off in retaliation for sass. Malak's full of it.

Malak even while just serving darth revan was capable of battling his master in a, "vicious duel" I believe, but ultimately lost. Give him 4 more years and I think he should be above darth revan.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Malak even while just serving darth revan was capable of battling his master in a, "vicious duel" I believe, but ultimately lost. Give him 4 more years and I think he should be above darth revan.

What are we basing this on?

Malak was not confident of his ability to duel his master for the throne right up until he fired on his ship. And even when they did duel at the end of the game, Malak struggled against and lost against Revan, who mind you has not learned any additional Sith teachings and the quantity of his regained memories is nebulous at best, while he was empowered by multiple Jedi and the Star Forge.

So either Revan found a power up somewhere in level 3 that increased Force powerz, or he was always better than Malak, and there's some history revisionism going on.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Last I checked, Revan sabered his jaw off in retaliation for sass. Malak's full of it.

Malak became more powerful after that and since becoming the Dark Lord. According to him he'd surpassed Revan at the time he fired on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malak became more powerful after that and since becoming the Dark Lord. According to him he'd surpassed Revan at the time he fired on him.

I'm sorry, but this begs for proof besides "Malak said so" and "time passed, therefore improvement".

It is quite possible he at least caught up, especially with the boosts he was using to cheat.

Btw, fun fact- when Malak was a Jedi named Alek, he lost a fight to a non-force user, Jarael.

Wasn't she at least Force-Sensitive?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't she at least Force-Sensitive?

Minimally, if at all! Multiple people assumed she was powerful in it due to her being the product of Antos Wyrick's attempt to create a large number of strong force users artificially using Arca Jeth's DNA, but the project turned out to be a failure in that respect. Insufficient for Jedi training.

She did have crazy good combat training in the Crucible, but she was 'just' a combat prodigy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What are we basing this on?

Malak was not confident of his ability to duel his master for the throne right up until he fired on his ship. And even when they did duel at the end of the game, Malak struggled against and lost against Revan, who mind you has not learned any additional Sith teachings and the quantity of his regained memories is nebulous at best, while he was empowered by multiple Jedi and the Star Forge.

So either Revan found a power up somewhere in level 3 that increased Force powerz, or he was always better than Malak, and there's some history revisionism going on.

I haven't played the game in a long time, but wasn't this explicitly the case?
Malak ragdolls Revan and Bastilla, and then Revan magically becomes powerful enough to defeat Bastilla and Star-Forge Amped Malak.

I don't think it's too far-fetched to believe that Malak surpassed Darth Revan.

Originally posted by red8
I haven't played the game in a long time, but wasn't this explicitly the case?
Malak ragdolls Revan and Bastilla, and then Revan magically becomes powerful enough to defeat Bastilla and Star-Forge Amped Malak.

I just rewatched the cut scene via Youtube. The quality of the game is worse than I remember. But then it's ten years old now.

Malak freezes Bastila and Carth when he explicitly means to duel Revan in the "ancient Sith Tradition as it was meant to be". They duel, he TK's Revan with a whirlwind maneuver and runs away, only to egg Revan on again. They fight again, he freezes Revan, and then Bastila intervenes.

Malak's Force powers seem to have the edge here. So that makes me think also: when the hell does Revan get magically better, or is Malak just lucky and Revan hasn't gotten his memories/aptitude back to normal?

I don't get how Revan could go from Force ignorant to better than his former self in the nebulous amount of time he was practicing either. Plot induced vagueness.



No, having reviewed the video I'm inclined to agree that Malak is at least very close to his old master, or has the edge because the former isn't up to full strength yet. Otherwise, there's no logical reason why Revan would suddenly defeat a buffed version of the same guy later.

Unless stims are that good.

KOTOR powerscaling sucks. That or Bastila's battle meditation was amping Revan

Which is a valid point actually. Bastila is canonically using it to help the Jedi/Republic. Revan could be getting buffed.

Nice catch.

Can't be- Ragnos didn't interrupt them just as it was getting good.

Bro, Revan just got stronger after their first fight. His powers were still developing he was still becoming more experienced with them. Its that simple.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is a valid point actually. Bastila is canonically using it to help the Jedi/Republic. Revan could be getting buffed.

Nice catch.

It is the most plausible conclusion. If Revan did it without battle med, then it's the most bs i've ever heard.

Mid game Rev<<Malak
End game Rev after fighting through the entire star forge/bastila>Malak while being amped by the star forge's energies + a bunch of jedi masters. sounds like bullshit to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bro, Revan just got stronger after their first fight. His powers were still developing he was still becoming more experienced with them. Its that simple.

How much time was in between Leviathan and his battle on the star forge? How much more powerful could he have possibly gotten? My previous declaration that KOTOR powerscaling sucks will ring true then.

An entire planets adventure plus everything on Lehon. Revan was picking shit up fast as hell though, as I recall he completes Jedi training in a week and they specifically say he's learning stuff faster than any Jedi they'd taught. It isn't hard to imagine that he was growing really ****ing fast as he was obviously dynamite lit in a box of hot shit in Kotor.

Plus its easy to imagine him getting much better after the reveal possibly helping him remember his past skills.

Another plausible conclusion is that the last planet Revan went to was Korriban (has this been revealed?), and regained some of his lost memories of the dark side, effectively improving his knowledge on how to defend against it and what not.

Dunno. I always go to Korriban last though. It just feels thematically appropriate.

Plus you get to "joke" with Lashowe about the fact that you're Revan

Originally posted by Q99
Can't be- Ragnos didn't interrupt them just as it was getting good.

MALAK: You're going down! (Creepy canned laughter)

REVAN: WTF, I'M A SITH?!

RAGNOS: Break it up! Goddamn, you kids I swear to god. Get off of my lawn this instant! Revan, where's your mother? Malak, put that away before you ruin something!