Barriss Offee vs The Grand Champion of the Great Hunt

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Nephthys
They fight in the government warehouse from Indiana Jones (Top people). Standard equipment for both.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Champ.

Intrepid37
SUPREME, join me and Emperordmb in the sexroom.

Nephthys
Yes, I think the Champ stomps her personally.

Intrepid37
Barriss stomps.

Nephthys
Lol.

Petrus
Champ.

Stealth Moose
This thread is a case of some serious butthurt because Barriss is ****ing awesome.

Nephthys
No, I'm just curious. What do I have to be butthurt about anyway? wink

Stealth Moose
You're jealous because Barriss' TK mastery threatens your TOR whatever the hell this guy is.

And she's cuter too.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're jealous because Barriss' TK mastery threatens your TOR whatever the hell this guy is.

Not especially. The Champion has shat on Jedi and Sith in fights, even especially powerful ones:

Kellian Jarro: Killed a hundred veteran Mando's in the Sack of Coruscant, described as 'an unstoppable force of nature, deflecting heavy blaster fire and slamming armor-plated warriors to the ground so hard that their rocket packs exploded on impact.'

Jun Seros: The Jedi Battlemaster, never been defeated in battle, capable of catching missiles in mid-air with TK.

Darth Tormen: Powerful Sith Lord. Once instantly blitzed a Sith Lord who challenged him. Rips consoles out of the ground to throw at the Champ.

And he has plenty of other amazing feats such as defeating a Mandalore candidate after getting shot 3 times with a sniper rifles, killing a Sithspawn that generations of Mando's had failed at, fighting through a Jedi Enclave, fighting through the Supreme Guard (the chancellors bodyguards) and defeating a Jedi-led strike team that defeated all the previous Great Hunt Champions together (indicating he's better than all of them combined).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And she's cuter too.

My Champion is black. AND a cyborg. Game set match. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

The_Tempest
PIS. Barriss stomps.

Nephthys
Its PIS that Grievous can fight a Jedi. All his feats are worthless now.

Also he helped defeat the almighty Revan.

ares834
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're jealous because Barriss' TK mastery threatens your TOR whatever the hell this guy is.

And she's cuter too.

thumb up

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its PIS that Grievous can fight a Jedi. All his feats are worthless now.

Also he helped defeat the almighty Revan.

Not really as Grievous has enhanced speed and sensors that allow him to keep up with Jedi. If the Great Champion is indeed a cyborg with speed enhancements its plausible he could defeat Bariss. If not its ridiculous. No unenhanced human should be able to keep up with a force user.

ares834
Well the thing is any adequate Jedi should just be able to rag doll Grievous with the force. Only PIS/CIS stops them from doing so.

Nephthys
As I've said in the past, all TOR characters have access to implants that can enhance capabilities (brought up in a quest, so its not just gameplay) as well as use stims to do the same. And there is the cyborg thing.

Either way, TOR era Non-Force sensitives clearly can keep up. They're even shown dodging lightsaber strikes on occasion.

Originally posted by ares834
Well the thing is any adequate Jedi should just be able to rag doll Grievous with the force. Only PIS/CIS stops them from doing so.

Doesn't GG have magnets built into his feet and claws to grip on to the ground to prevent that kind of thing?

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't GG have magnets built into his feet and claws to grip on to the ground to prevent that kind of thing?

Perhaps. I do seem to recall him having magnets in his feet but I don't remember if that is for preventing against the force or something else. Either way, several times powerful Jedi have floored him with the force so my point still stands.

Nephthys
Doesn't he use that after his escape in RotS to cling to his ship or something?

Yeah, but thats never put him down significantly. The Champion has been floored by TK too and still won the fight.

ares834
He uses a grapple gun and then just seems to press his claws in. Maybe the book makes it more clear.

Nephthys
Ironically enough I don't think I've actually rewatched that movie since I joined the forum.

Redlettermedia is much more entertaining anyway.

The_Tempest
It was LOE that confirmed Grievous's magnetized legs.

And yes, against any notable Sith or Jedi, Grievous would lose a SWVF fight.

Nephthys
What do you mean by notable?

Stealth Moose
Coleman Trebor is not notable.

But Barriss Offee would WTFpwn Grievous. And your minority robot bounty hunter who wins via PIS.

(Also, Idk what the hell you're talking about, my SI never got implants.)

Petrus
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not really as Grievous has enhanced speed and sensors that allow him to keep up with Jedi. If the Great Champion is indeed a cyborg with speed enhancements its plausible he could defeat Bariss. If not its ridiculous. No unenhanced human should be able to keep up with a force user.

That might've been true before TOR existed. As of now, every Muggle in the TOR character class selection (trooper, bounty hunter, agent, smuggler) have each kicked Sith and Jedi ass. Repeatedly.

Nephthys
Its not just the player classes. A LOT of people you fight in the game mention having beaten Jedi and Sith. From squads of soldiers to lone warriors. TOR era has extremely high combat prowess from Non-Force sensitives as well as the Jedi + Sith.

Obviously its all just PIS though.

ares834
thumb up

Yep.

Nephthys
Thaaanks! http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-thumbsup.gif

Intrepid37
lol

Petrus
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its not just the player classes. A LOT of people you fight in the game mention having beaten Jedi and Sith. From squads of soldiers to lone warriors. TOR era has extremely high combat prowess from Non-Force sensitives as well as the Jedi + Sith.

Obviously its all just PIS though.

Just like Vizsla giving Maul one hell of a fight being PIS, and the fact that Revan considers defeating Mandalore a huge feat and the fact that Malak got his ass kicked by Mandalore, etc. A lot of Muggle-killing-Jedi-and-Sith PIS.

Nephthys
Don't forget about Durge, Grievous and Cad Bane! Also Jango Fett giving Kenobi a hard fight in G-canon. thumb up

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Coleman Trebor is not notable.

But Barriss Offee would WTFpwn Grievous. And your minority robot bounty hunter who wins via PIS.

(Also, Idk what the hell you're talking about, my SI never got implants.)

Trebor was still a Jedi Council member and a Jedi Master. Surely he could of just pwned Fett with the Force, amirite. :^y

Lmao, no she freaking wouldn't. Grievous would destroy her. As would the Bounty Hunter. He opens up with a flamethrower that can fill and kill an entire room with a single burst and has overwhelmed 'even well-trained Jedi and Sith' and if she tries to block it with a shield he unloads dozens of rockets possessing 'unmatched stopping power' into her. GG.

What, you never equipped two of these bad boys:

http://www.swtorhub.com/sites/swtorhub.com/files/images/SWTOR_ah-implants.jpg

erm

They're mentioned in a quest on Nar Shaddaa, so they do canonically exist.

Col. Valerian
Normally, I'd say that these ToR writers are fecking a-holes that don't even think about PIS, but it kind of has to be like this. It would be terribly lame if the Champion never killed a Jedi or any other Force user in the entire game. You can't blame them, really.

Now, it's a completely different story when talking about fights such as Pre Vizsla VS Maul or Jango VS Kenobi.

Nephthys
Non-Force sensitives have taken on and even defeated their Force-using counterparts in all aspects of the mythos: The films, comics, games, tv shows and books. You can't lay it on Bioware, this is a fully established part of the mythos and theres plenty of precendent to having the TOR muggles be that good.

If anything, I would argue that the sources saying that Jedi can always beat a non-Jedi is the erroneous pov.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't forget about Durge, Grievous and Cad Bane! Also Jango Fett giving Kenobi a hard fight in G-canon. thumb up



Trebor was still a Jedi Council member and a Jedi Master. Surely he could of just pwned Fett with the Force, amirite. :^y

Lmao, no she freaking wouldn't. Grievous would destroy her. As would the Bounty Hunter. He opens up with a flamethrower that can fill and kill an entire room with a single burst and has overwhelmed 'even well-trained Jedi and Sith' and if she tries to block it with a shield he unloads dozens of rockets possessing 'unmatched stopping power' into her. GG.

What, you never equipped two of these bad boys:

http://www.swtorhub.com/sites/swtorhub.com/files/images/SWTOR_ah-implants.jpg

erm

They're mentioned in a quest on Nar Shaddaa, so they do canonically exist.

Right, but that doesn't mean they canonically exist in all of the player characters in TOR mythos. I mean, with this kind of logic, I'm running around with a shield generator that isn't visible in any of the cutscenes, or if I used the Hide Head slot I'm cloaking my circlet/mask/antler horns with my amazing powers.

It's a gameplay mechanic. I don't know how you could argue it's valid.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, but that doesn't mean they canonically exist in all of the player characters in TOR mythos. I mean, with this kind of logic, I'm running around with a shield generator that isn't visible in any of the cutscenes, or if I used the Hide Head slot I'm cloaking my circlet/mask/antler horns with my amazing powers.

It's a gameplay mechanic. I don't know how you could argue it's valid.

Concession accepted over the Champ vs Barriss.

Um, characters are running around with shield generators. Let me see, at least the.... Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Imperial Agent and the Trooper (huh, all the Non-Force sensitive classes) all mention them in their equipment pages in the TOR: Encyclopedia. The Smuggler has it installed in their belt. :shrug: It also says Bounty Hunters wear rocket boots. Proving once and for all that the Champ >>>>>>> lameass Offee.

Also if you pick an advanced class that can use a shield generator it will be mentioned in its codex page, in the conversation when you pick it, or in the description of the class when you get the options.

Stims and adrenals are also mentioned on the Hunters equipment page btw.

As to implants, I think its enough that they're available to any class. You're complaining that they're just an ordinary dude, when its entirely possible for them to be enhanced through various means (cyborg, stims + implants). You can't shrug it off as PIS when these things exist to explain away your problem with it.

The_Tempest
Notable as being any moderately talented Jedi. They have the power on paper to beat Muggles.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
PIS. Barriss stomps.

Nephthys
How?

The_Tempest
Telekinesis, precognition, superior reflexes, speed, strength, agility, etc. or a combination thereof.

Not to mention the cool sword that can burn through shit.

Nephthys
The Hunter has defeated people with all of those things, superior in those regards to Offee. Also thats a pretty vague explanation. How does she block flamethrower fire and target-seeking rockets?

Yeah and the Hunter has plenty of lethal weapons too. One hit and shes dead.

The_Tempest
So what? Lumiya handed Luke his ass in LOTF, but Luke would rightly stomp her in a SWVF thread. It's PIS. Since we don't script the fights, we must defer to the combatants with the greater skillset and power.

That is overwhelmingly Force users.

And who says that happens before Barriss uses the Force to go all Hulk on his Loki ass?

Nephthys
Its PIS because there was actual factors involved that made it PIS. You're just declaring the Champions fights PIS because you don't like them, despite having no information to base that on. Prove that its a case of PIS rather than a character just being that good. Because personally? One case would be PIS. The Champion repeatedly performs at that level.

You know when Janus called you out on being closeminded? Gee, I really can't see where he's getting that from. wink (Although he's obviously being just as guilty of it in this case)

When has Barriss displayed the TK prowess to ragdoll someone and smash them around? Particularly someone wearing heavy plate armor? Which would kind of prevent that tactic from doing anything btw.

Also: Rocket boots.

The_Tempest
That's actually pretty stupid since I also said that any notable Jedi would hand Grievous his ass as well and when have I ever exhibited dislike for the general? Maybe you're saying the Champion wins because you're a TOR fanboy and a poopoo head?

Actually, I could better defend that claim of bias than you could yours.

I'm using PIS as a catch-all term for scripted context and circumstances that enabled ostensibly weaker characters to triumph over ostensibly stronger characters, with major emphasis on "scripted."

Obviously Muggles can and have beat Force users. Sometimes even consistently. But at the end of the day, I go with what's on paper and what's on paper is that the character with telekinetic and telepathic powers, equipped with precognition and imbued with superhuman physicality is going to beat a talented Mook with a gun.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
Concession accepted over the Champ vs Barriss.

Um, characters are running around with shield generators. Let me see, at least the.... Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Imperial Agent and the Trooper (huh, all the Non-Force sensitive classes) all mention them in their equipment pages in the TOR: Encyclopedia.

You missed the point. The potential to be in the inventory is not the same as possessing it in all cases. Implants are an optional equipment item, like those Dark Side pyramid relics which grant you temporary defense boosts. No one would argue that the SI could defeat X by virtue of having two Sith pyramids in his robe-pocket.

Canonically, the Mask of Kallig defends against the Force ritual of Zash. I don't have to wear it ever, or I can wear it all the time. I can sell it to buy boots later from a droid vendor. No one would argue that the SI always has Kallig Force Mask defense by virtue of potentially having it on him at some point in his saga.

That's my point.



No, Barriss stomps. Your refusal to admit this in favor of non-Jedi is a blatant case of Traviss-ism, and you will be duly punished for this heresy.



Right, and the Exile picked up a plasma torch in Peragus, which is referenced in the mission objective indicator, the dialogue pop-up, and the official strategy guide.

I wouldn't argue that Meetra uses a plasma torch in her combat.



Yes, I believe this. However, my contention was that ALL TOR characters canonically have implants. This was your original point and the point I contested most. Barriss' supremacy is simply evident



No, see above. I did not just say "they are an ordinary dude", but I contested the idea of implants being universal, which was your claim. Also, implants don't protect against Force usage, so this is kind of silly anyways.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's actually pretty stupid since I also said that any notable Jedi would hand Grievous his ass as well and when have I ever exhibited dislike for the general? Maybe you're saying the Champion wins because you're a TOR fanboy and a poopoo head?

I never claimed that you were biased against the Champ, only that you don't like the idea that a 'Muggle' could defeat a Force user. Thats why you're claiming it to be PIS, despite having absolutely no evidence that it was or even knowing anything about the actual fights themselves.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm using PIS as a catch-all term for scripted context and circumstances that enabled ostensibly weaker characters to triumph over ostensibly stronger characters, with major emphasis on "scripted."

Riiight, and how exactly were any of the Champs wins 'scripted'? And what exactly makes you think that those characters he beat were actually stronger than him?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Obviously Muggles can and have beat Force users. Sometimes even consistently. But at the end of the day, I go with what's on paper and what's on paper is that the character with telekinetic and telepathic powers, equipped with precognition and imbued with superhuman physicality is going to beat a talented Mook with a gun.

And again I ask: How? How do her superpowers enable her to win? You see, thats exactly why I'm calling you out on this, because you're not thinking about anything other than that shes a Jedi and he isn't.

Also he's a bit more than just talented and he has a bit more than just a gun.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never claimed that you were biased against the Champ, only that you don't like the idea that a 'Muggle' could defeat a Force user.

Which is, again, pretty stupid since two or three fights featuring Muggles vs. Force users were included in my top 10 favorite fight list. I already told you that Muggles can absolutely defeat Force users, but in scripted context.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats why you're claiming it to be PIS, despite having absolutely no evidence that it was or even knowing anything about the actual fights themselves.

Nah, you showed me enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Riiight, and how exactly were any of the Champs wins 'scripted'? And what exactly makes you think that those characters he beat were actually stronger than him?

Because he emerged victorious? And because they're all powerful telekinetics and telepaths with superhuman physicality and precognition and he's not?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And again I ask: How? How do her superpowers enable her to win? You see, thats exactly why I'm calling you out on this, because you're not thinking about anything other than that shes a Jedi and he isn't.

Nah, she can choke him to death, break his neck, throw shit at him, throw him into shit, crush his weapons, being creative with her TK presents a vast multitude of possibilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also he's a bit more than just talented and he has a bit more than just a gun.

Ok.

He still loses on-paper.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You missed the point. The potential to be in the inventory is not the same as possessing it in all cases. Implants are an optional equipment item, like those Dark Side pyramid relics which grant you temporary defense boosts. No one would argue that the SI could defeat X by virtue of having two Sith pyramids in his robe-pocket.

Canonically, the Mask of Kallig defends against the Force ritual of Zash. I don't have to wear it ever, or I can wear it all the time. I can sell it to buy boots later from a droid vendor. No one would argue that the SI always has Kallig Force Mask defense by virtue of potentially having it on him at some point in his saga.

That's my point.

I never said that all the classes possessed them, only that they were available to all classes:

"As I've said in the past, all TOR characters have access to implants that can enhance capabilities (brought up in a quest, so its not just gameplay) as well as use stims to do the same. And there is the cyborg thing."

I brought it up merely as a possibility for how the muggle classes could keep up in terms of reflexes.

I would argue that Nox does possess that Mask and should be counted as having it, same as Kalligs Scorching Lightsaber. It isn't potentially, you go on a quest to get it in the SI campaign. Nox canonically possesses the Mask, so I see no reason why we shouldn't think she has access to it in a forum fight. You wearing it or not is optional. Her possessing it isn't.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, Barriss stomps. Your refusal to admit this in favor of non-Jedi is a blatant case of Traviss-ism, and you will be duly punished for this heresy.

How can yu stomp on something.... THATS ALREADY FLYING AWAY:

http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2011/12/flyboard-rocket-boots-3-537x392.jpg

Rocket boots!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, and the Exile picked up a plasma torch in Peragus, which is referenced in the mission objective indicator, the dialogue pop-up, and the official strategy guide.

I wouldn't argue that Meetra uses a plasma torch in her combat.

I would, at least at that point in the game. If its brought up in those sources then obviously she wielded one, until she found something better at least.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes, I believe this. However, my contention was that ALL TOR characters canonically have implants. This was your original point and the point I contested most. Barriss' supremacy is simply evident

No it wasn't. I just said they all have access to them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, see above. I did not just say "they are an ordinary dude", but I contested the idea of implants being universal, which was your claim. Also, implants don't protect against Force usage, so this is kind of silly anyways.

The ability to use implants is universal. I don't recall anything indicating why any of the classes couldn't have used them.

I never said it did, I brought them up as means to keep up in reflexes and shit.

The_Tempest
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081016014930/starwars/images/9/94/BarrissSBD.jpg

^ Imagine that the Champ's fat ugly face is cleverly photoshopped over that super battle droid.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is, again, pretty stupid since two or three fights featuring Muggles vs. Force users were included in my top 10 favorite fight list. I already told you that Muggles can absolutely defeat Force users, but in scripted context.

Jesus, you're being annoying and pedantic. You know what I meant. You don't like the concept that in a straight fight without PIS that a Non-Force Sensitive could defeat a Jedi or a Sith. Without a scripted context or anything.

Are you going to continue to weasel around, or address the actual point?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you showed me enough.

Really? Enlighten me on what you saw that made you think it was scripted.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because he emerged victorious? And because they're all powerful telekinetics and telepaths with superhuman physicality and precognition and he's not?

Lmao. So just him winning is enough to declare it PIS then? roll eyes (sarcastic) How staggeringly openminded of you.

And as I've said, its entirely possible for him to possess superhuman physicality. And as I've also said, he possess an enormous arsenal to make up for his lack of Force use. Again, how does Offee survive an entire room of fire thrown her way along with a dozen missiles?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, she can choke him to death, break his neck, throw shit at him, throw him into shit, crush his weapons, being creative with her TK presents a vast multitude of possibilities.

When has she shown the TK prowess to do any of that?

Plus, as a Jedi she isn't versed in using the Force in such lethal ways.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok.

He still loses on-paper.

No he doesn't. "On paper" he's defeated much more powerful beings than her.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said that all the classes possessed them, only that they were available to all classes:

"As I've said in the past, all TOR characters have access to implants that can enhance capabilities (brought up in a quest, so its not just gameplay) as well as use stims to do the same. And there is the cyborg thing."

I brought it up merely as a possibility for how the muggler classes could keep up in terms of reflexes.

Fair enough. Implants and stims could explain why people could dodge a Force push, for sure.



I agree that it's in their possession, but whether or not they use it all the time is still grey. Continued use of either of the two items is entirely player choice at this point, similar to Meetra's plasma torch. It's not explicitly featured in any of the cutscenes, nor is it impossible to dispose of the equipment once the mask in particular is done being useful.

However, I admit that in another situation we wouldn't argue Sadow without his amulets or Kun with a single blade saber. This really tied more to the universal implants, which you addressed.



(Looking up Barriss Offee youtube videos leads me to believe the CW cartoon is just giving too many Jedi and Sith double sabers.)

Barriss stomps.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081016014930/starwars/images/9/94/BarrissSBD.jpg

^ Imagine that the Champ's fat ugly face is cleverly photoshopped over that super battle droid.

thumb up

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Fair enough. Implants and stims could explain why people could dodge a Force push, for sure.

For reference to that:

u4ptalNssvw

1.30

The Agent also dodges a lightsaber strike. All after already beating him once.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I agree that it's in their possession, but whether or not they use it all the time is still grey. Continued use of either of the two items is entirely player choice at this point, similar to Meetra's plasma torch. It's not explicitly featured in any of the cutscenes, nor is it impossible to dispose of the equipment once the mask in particular is done being useful.

However, I admit that in another situation we wouldn't argue Sadow without his amulets or Kun with a single blade saber. This really tied more to the universal implants, which you addressed.

Exactly my point with the Sadow and Kun thing.

Its optional whether you the player continue to use it after you get it, but not that Nox canonically possesses it. Theres no canon reason why they would get rid of it, or stop using it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
(Looking up Barriss Offee youtube videos leads me to believe the CW cartoon is just giving too many Jedi and Sith double sabers.)

Barriss stomps.

Nah.

Stealth Moose
Dude, Barriss stomps hard. She toyed with Ahsoka so much. And she ambushed both her and Ventress, even though the latter is like a textbook example of how to hide in the Force.

Barriss >>>> TOR Traviss avatars.

Nephthys
So? Ahsoka's hardly all that. The Champ beat the freaking Jedi Order Battlemaster in a straight fight. erm

The_Tempest
I find it hilarious that my powers are such that I can enrage you literally without trying. It's a wonder we manage to find an island of friendship in the tumultuous sea of your rage.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dude, Barriss stomps hard. She toyed with Ahsoka so much. And she ambushed both her and Ventress, even though the latter is like a textbook example of how to hide in the Force.

Barriss >>>> TOR Traviss avatars.

thumb up

Nephthys
The only thing enraging me is you continually accusing me of being angry when I'm not. I'm doing this while listening to Adventure Time reviews. Its hard to be pissed when you're laughing every 30 seconds.

The_Tempest
Of course.





Lawl

Nephthys
I am an island of tranquility nestled between a snoozing giants arsecrack.

http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/titles/c8/59/00131604.0001.gif

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
So? Ahsoka's hardly all that. The Champ beat the freaking Jedi Order Battlemaster in a straight fight. erm

Did the Battlemaster apply TK to conclusively knock The Champ out? No, then it wasn't a straight fight; the Battlemaster was being restrained in his efforts to LOLstomp the Champ. Also, that title is retarded.

Barriss Offee solos while doing floating meditation.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose


(Looking up Barriss Offee youtube videos leads me to believe the CW cartoon is just giving too many Jedi and Sith double sabers.)




Dual Sabers did get used too much in the last season. But to be fair in Barriss's case it was only because she stole Ventress's sabers. Although she was clearly trained in fighting that way.

Stealth Moose
Which is bizarre, given that in the books she never demonstrated such a thing. However, she does seem Soresu-esque, I have to give them that.

But now you have Maul, Sidious, Ventress, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Barriss all using dual sabers. It's becoming a gimmick.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Did the Battlemaster apply TK to conclusively knock The Champ out? No, then it wasn't a straight fight; the Battlemaster was being restrained in his efforts to LOLstomp the Champ. Also, that title is retarded.

Barriss Offee solos while doing floating meditation.

How would he conclusively knock the Champ out? Most of the fight occurs in gameplay, so we don't know if he did or did not attempt to incapacitate the Champ with the Force.

The Champ wins while banging his asian schoolgirl companion.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
How would he conclusively knock the Champ out? Most of the fight occurs in gameplay, so we don't know if he did or did not attempt to incapacitate the Champ with the Force.

Concession accepted.



So he's a pedo and a muggle?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Concession accepted.

I concede nothing, mortal. What makes you think the Champ can be so easily defeated by TK? Whats he going to do, throw things at him, or throw him at stuff? The BH has heavy armor packed with defense systems, whats that gonna do? Plus Jarro was renowned for smashing Mando's with TK and he still lost to the Champion.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So he's a pedo and a muggle?

You become public enemy number one at the end of Act II for a reason. wink

(naw, she just looks and sounds like a teenager)

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
I concede nothing, mortal. What makes you think the Champ can be so easily defeated by TK? Whats he going to do, throw things at him, or throw him at stuff? The BH has heavy armor packed with defense systems, whats that gonna do? Plus Jarro was renowned for smashing Mando's with TK and he still lost to the Champion.



You become public enemy number one at the end of Act II for a reason. wink

(naw, she just looks and sounds like a teenager)

Barriss brought down a metal girder on Ahsoka in a split second.

She crumples the Champ's helmet or rips out his implant. GG.

Nephthys
No she didn't. erm

She pulled over a metal sheet at the start of the fight which LMAO if that means she can crush a freaking durasteel helmet. shocklaugh

And ripping out implants is way too precise to do in midbattle. Plus she doesn't even know he has it or where it is.

Stealth Moose
Watch the fight again bro. She totally did.

Also, if you can't sense implants with the Force, this would boggle my mind, considering a neophyte Luke Skywalker sensed a remote using the Force.

That's like Force 101.

Nephthys
I did. I watched it again in that link you posted on the last page. The thing she does at 0.36 right?

The ****? No, he sensed its attacks with precognition. You can't sense robots with the Force, since they're non-biological and not connected to the Force in any way.

THATS Force 101.

Col. Valerian
The same you lads (Tempest and Moose) are arguing can be argued in any Force user VS any competent Muggle duel. Yet the Champ kicks Jedi ass in TOR. Even with all their telekinetic abilities, he still wins.

I don't know how this can be effectively debated, to be honest.

Nephthys
They think we should just ignore those wins.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is bizarre, given that in the books she never demonstrated such a thing. However, she does seem Soresu-esque, I have to give them that.

But now you have Maul, Sidious, Ventress, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Barriss all using dual sabers. It's becoming a gimmick.


Unfortunately yes. But I'd like to think it's because they're all just bad ass Saber duelists.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The same you lads (Tempest and Moose) are arguing can be argued in any Force user VS any competent Muggle duel. Yet the Champ kicks Jedi ass in TOR. Even with all their telekinetic abilities, he still wins.

No one denied that he wins. No one denies that Muggles can beat Wizards. Still goes against what's on paper, which is what I argue here.

Col. Valerian
Well ok, but the thread's title is Champ VS Offee. So suck it and tell me who actually wins, plebe.

Stealth Moose
Barriss wins. Just accept it.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Well ok, but the thread's title is Champ VS Offee. So suck it and tell me who actually wins, plebe.

Told you already: Barriss.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Barriss wins. Just accept it.

NEVER.

And Temp, you said you didn't deny the Champ'd win.

Stealth Moose
OBEY.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
NEVER.

And Temp, you said you didn't deny the Champ'd win.

Should have clarified: no one denies the Champ wins against Force users in the game.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
OBEY.

DON'T WANNA.


So, you're saying he just wins against Wizards in-game, then, because 'on paper' it's not logical?

Stealth Moose
No, the argument is this:

IF telekinesis cannot be defended against, THEN it seems unreasonable to assume that muggles win except when a Force user has Plot Induced Force Restraint and the director/author employs Rule of Cool versus cold hard reason.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
DON'T WANNA.


So, you're saying he just wins against Wizards in-game, then, because 'on paper' it's not logical?

I'm saying that Muggles win against Force users despite almost always having an on-paper disadvantage.

Grievous kills Force users left and right despite the fact that they should be able to raise a hand and bash the holy bejesus out of him against any hard surface until there's nothing left but warped, tangled metal. (We see Jedi and Sith Force push him throughout CW, TCW, and ROTS.)

In other words, Muggle victories generally owe to scripting, plot contrivance, or other narrative tools to heighten tension and preempt the creation of a Boring Invincible Hero.

But here, I argue what a character is generally accepted as being capable of and then it comes down to odds. Lumiya embarrassed Luke three times throughout LOTF.

But in a versus thread, I'd say he'd crush her like the tin can she is and rightly so.

TL;DR: Because we're not rp'ing the fight or writing it and instead coming to conclusions based on how characters' abilities compare against one another, I'm almost always going to side with the Wizard versus the Muggle.

(Barring favorable context in the thread.)

Col. Valerian
So, what I just said. Since the Champ is a TOR character only the Jedi he fights in-game have PIFR and thus he'd lose against any other Force user who doesn't appear in the game.

The_Tempest
Colonel, don't ninja me again. There will be consequences.

And no, I'd say the Champ would lose in a SWVF rematch against any powerful Force user he's killed in the game.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm saying that Muggles win against Force users despite almost always having an on-paper disadvantage.

Grievous kills Force users left and right despite the fact that they should be able to raise a hand and bash the holy bejesus out of him against any hard surface until there's nothing left but warped, tangled metal. (We see Jedi and Sith Force push him throughout CW, TCW, and ROTS.)

In other words, Muggle victories generally owe to scripting, plot contrivance, or other narrative tools to heighten tension and preempt the creation of a Boring Invincible Hero.

But here, I argue what a character is generally accepted as being capable of and then it comes down to odds. Lumiya embarrassed Luke three times throughout LOTF.

But in a versus thread, I'd say he'd crush her like the tin can she is and rightly so.

TL;DR: Because we're not rp'ing the fight or writing it and instead coming to conclusions based on how characters' abilities compare against one another, I'm almost always going to side with the Wizard versus the Muggle.

(Barring favorable context in the thread.)

Col. Valerian
I don't fear you, Tempest.

And fair enough.

The_Tempest
That's not to say I don't sympathize with Nephthys's stance since Gideon used to try to take these low showings/PIS moments into consideration when coming to a conclusion.

But the result is a tangled blob of headaches. So I just generally default to general abilities.

Col. Valerian
Yes, it's complicated.

Gideon sucked tho

The_Tempest
no

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Grievous kills Force users left and right despite the fact that they should be able to raise a hand and bash the holy bejesus out of him against any hard surface until there's nothing left but warped, tangled metal. (We see Jedi and Sith Force push him throughout CW, TCW, and ROTS.)

The list of Jedi who can actually do that is rather small, bro. And I don't think any of the guys he's killed were on it.

Plus Grievous is fast enough to close the distance and force a lightsaber duel anyway. He's dodged or tanked Force attacks and its easily arguable that he's too fast to pin down and grip with a Force hold.

The_Tempest
No, the list of Jedi who have actually done that to him is pretty small.

If we count CW!Grievous, that is true. But there again, we've seen plenty of times that Jedi have nailed Grievous with the Force and didn't rinse and repeat because the script forbade them.

Grievous, with his cyborg durability and physicality, can indeed plausibly beat a Jedi in melee combat.

But the Force is too great an advantage for me to overlook in a general fight.

Nephthys
No Jedi has done that to him. The closest was Windu crushing his chest in CW.

Yeah and 'nailing' him was nothing more than a distraction since it never harmed him. The most it did was daze him. No Jedi (other than the obvious) seems to possess the ability to crush him like you're saying they can. Plus its not like Jedi can just spam the Force over and over. They'd get worn out from the effort. The best thing they could do is immobilize him but he can power through that with his cybernetic strength. And if they try to lift him into the air he can a) grip onto the floor with his feet and prevent it or b) even if they get him into the air as you said he has magnetised feet.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
No Jedi has done that to him. The closest was Windu crushing his chest in CW.

Yeah and 'nailing' him was nothing more than a distraction since it never harmed him. The most it did was daze him. No Jedi (other than the obvious) seems to possess the ability to crush him like you're saying they can. Plus its not like Jedi can just spam the Force over and over. They'd get worn out from the effort. The best thing they could do is immobilize him but he can power through that with his cybernetic strength. And if they try to lift him into the air he can a) grip onto the floor with his feet and prevent it or b) even if they get him into the air as you said he has magnetised feet.

I'm sorry, but saying that because they Jedi didn't explicitly TK Grievous to death or into a position of vulnerability means they never could ever seems wrong. First I'd like to point out that hypothetical versus matches aren't fought in terms of PIS. This is why we don't argue that Yoda would get knocked out by the first Sith Lightning chucked by Sith Lord X, or Sidious would get TK'd out of hand by Combatant Y. It's perfectly reasonable to say "X has feat Y which is insofar as we know, unblockable by his opponent. Therefore, barring PIS, there's no reason X can't use Y to dominate." We'd also consider this a "best of averages" assumption; it doesn't remove the possibility of defeating X, but simply notes that it is less likely because of Y.

Exceptions to the rule don't simply disprove the rule altogether.

Second, in the TPM novelization, Qui-Gon Jinn reaches into droids and basically disables them with TK, and in the movie he TK's the dice with what we would term is great dexterity. In the former case, he is reaching through a metal chasis to disable a mechanical component of something he's never fought or built. This explains why droids are TK'd by Qui-Gon and remain prone. Obi-Wan may have done it as well, but I only specifically remember Qui-Gon doing so. If Obi-Wan did, then it's absolutely within the realm of Barriss, as her personal control, dexterity, and her exotic Force mastery imply this much is possible.

This is much more reasonable to assume than "in scripted cutscene or player-controlled non-canon battle scene, X beat Y; therefore, X can beat anyone Y-like".

Nephthys
I can't believe I have to preface this, but my remarks are intended to be humorous and sarcastic instead of angry, so please don't accuse me of rage again.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm sorry, but saying that because they Jedi didn't explicitly TK Grievous to death or into a position of vulnerability means they never could ever seems wrong.

You seem to be misreading my posts and jumping down my throat today. Perhaps its some kind of religious holiday from reading comprehension:

"Yeah and 'nailing' him was nothing more than a distraction since it never harmed him. The most it did was daze him. No Jedi (other than the obvious) seems to possess the ability to crush him like you're saying they can. Plus its not like Jedi can just spam the Force over and over. They'd get worn out from the effort. The best thing they could do is immobilize him but he can power through that with his cybernetic strength. And if they try to lift him into the air he can a) grip onto the floor with his feet and prevent it or b) even if they get him into the air as you said he has magnetised feet."

I didn't say they 'never could ever', I said it 'seems' to be the case based on examples where people have used TK on him and its been undamaging. So its possible that a Jedi could TK him to death. Unfortunately though thats a baseless argument that flies against the evidence of TK's effects on him. You might as well argue that they could beat him to death with a rock. It's "possible", buuuut its probably not gonna happen.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
First I'd like to point out that hypothetical versus matches aren't fought in terms of PIS. This is why we don't argue that Yoda would get knocked out by the first Sith Lightning chucked by Sith Lord X, or Sidious would get TK'd out of hand by Combatant Y. It's perfectly reasonable to say "X has feat Y which is insofar as we know, unblockable by his opponent. Therefore, barring PIS, there's no reason X can't use Y to dominate." We'd also consider this a "best of averages" assumption; it doesn't remove the possibility of defeating X, but simply notes that it is less likely because of Y.

Exceptions to the rule don't simply disprove the rule altogether.

Right.

Except you guys haven't bothered establishing just how the almighty TK is going to instawin the thread or any fights vs Grievous.

How about this:

'The Champion has dozens of highly destructive missiles, which insofar as we know, Barriss cannot block since shes just a measly little padawan, therefore the Champ can use these heat-seeking missiles to win.'

Oh look, I win the thread, since thats how debating.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second, in the TPM novelization, Qui-Gon Jinn reaches into droids and basically disables them with TK, and in the movie he TK's the dice with what we would term is great dexterity. In the former case, he is reaching through a metal chasis to disable a mechanical component of something he's never fought or built. This explains why droids are TK'd by Qui-Gon and remain prone. Obi-Wan may have done it as well, but I only specifically remember Qui-Gon doing so. If Obi-Wan did, then it's absolutely within the realm of Barriss, as her personal control, dexterity, and her exotic Force mastery imply this much is possible.

I know. Its a Force technique called 'Disable droid'. And theres no indication it would work on Grievous, being a super-advanced cyborg and all.

Whats is your point here?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is much more reasonable to assume than "in scripted cutscene or player-controlled non-canon battle scene, X beat Y; therefore, X can beat anyone Y-like".

What is much more reasonable to assume? That Barriss can do that? No, since its a specific Force technique that requires training in to perform.

Also theres the fact that the fight the Hunter engages in are not scripted and you've offered absolutely no evidence to say that they are. Also the Bounty Hunters victories are not non-canon, obviously. Just because they happen in gameplay doesn't diminish them any more than any other class. I could easily put the Inquisitor as X and have that argument make as much sense.

Stealth Moose
http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/32525/u%20mad.png

Nephthys
http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070425011955/starwars/images/e/e9/Barris_death.JPG

^ Imagine that the Champion's glorious visage is cleverly photoshopped over that AT-TE.

Stealth Moose
http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/6118cd5c93129fa2631f8394c7c09b4172f25be0_m.jpg

Barriss dominates.

Nephthys
Maybe I'm mad, but Barriss is dead. smokin'

Glowy-hand heal that, b*tch!

Stealth Moose
No, Barriss lives. Her pure spirit runs rampant through the cosmos. Also, it is kind of stupid that they made her fall in the animated series. That's so out of character I don't know what to think.

Nephthys
Her fall probably invalidates her above death though. Since I doubt she'd still be fighting as a Jedi when she isn't a Jedi anymore (and was arrested?).

Stealth Moose
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense either. Wookiepedia simply states that she worked alongside her former master, but that makes no sense. Overall, I'm not very thrilled with how the new series treats established canon. EU establishes Barriss and Maul in particular as vastly different from how they are depicted in the show.

The_Tempest
Maul's an improvement; Barriss is meh. Got a couple of badass fight scenes out of the deal, though!

Nephthys
Maybe. But I must say I am pleased with some elements of her re-imagining.

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r494/ltdiesel/meenaheyes_zps2372f18f.gif

The_Tempest
They're both like 12 bro.

Nephthys
http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r494/ltdiesel/meenaheyes_zps2372f18f.gif

I know.

The_Tempest
Well, two twelves do make a 24, which is legal. So I guess you wiggled out of that moral dilemma.

Nephthys
Wow, theres a lot of Ahsoka porn on Deviantart.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's actually pretty stupid since I also said that any notable Jedi would hand Grievous his ass as well and when have I ever exhibited dislike for the general? Maybe you're saying the Champion wins because you're a TOR fanboy and a poopoo head?

Actually, I could better defend that claim of bias than you could yours.

I'm using PIS as a catch-all term for scripted context and circumstances that enabled ostensibly weaker characters to triumph over ostensibly stronger characters, with major emphasis on "scripted."

No offence but that is not PIS.

PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) is when a "superior" character loses to an "inferior" one just because the writer want them to even though it makes no logical sense.

If there is a "reason" or certain circumstances that allowed the weaker opponent to win, that is not PIS, that is common sense and realism. By realism I mean most fights are not going to be "fair and square" arena-type matches. If , say, the superior oponent slips on some grease, then the weaker foe can beat him. Also most characters are not just mindless fighting machines, so personality traits will influence them.

Example: Darth Maul vs. Pre Vizla. Sure, Maul could have just choked him with the Force, but the point wasn't just to kill Pre; it was to prove Maul was stronger so that Death Watch would obey him. That meant he had to beat Pre in a straight-up fight.

Likewise, sure most Jedi could just choke out their foes with the Force but they don't because that's against their creed.

The_Tempest
^ That's why myself (and Janus too, I believe) are just using PIS conveniently as a catch-all phrase which I specifically noted.

Nephthys
The correct phrase would be CIS (Character-Induced-Stupidity).

The_Tempest
As the originator of the phrase, I'm aware. But since the writer's plotting is what drives the character to err, PIS is more accurate.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, it is kind of stupid that they made her fall in the animated series. That's so out of character I don't know what to think.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe. But I must say I am pleased with some elements of her re-imagining.

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r494/ltdiesel/meenaheyes_zps2372f18f.gif

Yeah, me too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, theres a lot of Ahsoka porn on Deviantart.

Beg your pardon but since when does kissing and/or hugging constitute pornography?

Nephthys
It doesn't but stuff like this, this and this is getting close.

I probably shouldn't have linked to those. mmm

On the other hand AWWWWW! <3

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't but stuff like this, this and this is getting close.

I probably shouldn't have linked to those. mmm

On the other hand AWWWWW! <3

True on both counts.

Stealth Moose
Pretty sure Barriss is like 17-19 range as of AotC.

Petrus
Aayla Secura porn on Wookieepedia is way better.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Stealth Moose

(Looking up Barriss Offee youtube videos leads me to believe the CW cartoon is just giving too many Jedi and Sith double sabers.)

Barriss stomps.

Agreed on both counts.

Nephthys
So anyway, I totally won right?

Stealth Moose
No, Barriss always wins.

Nephthys
Not against that AT-TE. awepedo

Stealth Moose
She used Force teleport. Retcon.

Nephthys
Sure, just like Revan did right? :snigger:

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
:snigger:

Jesus Christ, don't say that word!

Nephthys
Those lazy slack



ers

Nephthys
Holy crap!

8-R2xS7sSUE&list=PL0C1D600E91AC15C4

2.15 + 2.40

"The Champion only beat Tormen through PIS."

http://i36.tinypic.com/212suv7.png

Stealth Moose
I can't get the vid to work on mah phone but this looks like epic win for Barriss.

Nephthys
Its another example of Tormen having legit awesome TK abilities. He kills 4 soldiers with a large Force Wave and then starts Force Choking a guy without gesturing before flatout snapping the necks of him and 2 others.

Bioware specifically showed how good Tormens TK was and that he has no compulsion about using it to kill non-Force sensitives.

Stealth Moose
Right, so if there's no logical reason why any muggle would stand a snowball's chance in hell against a high level Force user (much less a cosmic level one like Barriss), it's PIS.

Nephthys
Comparing the Champ to those guys is dumb. Their equipment is "lightyears ahead" of a normal soldiers (an actual quote about it) and they are vastly more skilled. Tormen actually starts the fight by blasting them with TK and the Champ just gets back up, then Tormen throws a console at him and they dodge it.

Stealth Moose
So it was skill and Buzz Lightyear equipment that prevented Tormen from snapping the Champ's neck? Am I to assume that because something possibly didn't happen it's because of the virtue of the muggle who has no known defense and not the falling of the Force user? I can't subscribe to this kind of logic.

Nephthys
Er, yeah? How do you know the Champs armor doesn't have something to prevent a neck-snap? Hell, how do you know a neck-snap would even hurt a Champ who could be cybernetic?

Yeah, you are supposed to assume that. You have no evidence with which to lean towards PIS and evidence against that idea plus numerous sources that say that the Hunter can legit stand up to a Force User. Nothing, literally nothing since I have seen not one shred of evidence suggesting PIS, supports the PIS theory besides your personal bias, while the game makes it clear that the Champ really is Just. That. Good.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, yeah? How do you know the Champs armor doesn't have something to prevent a neck-snap? Hell, how do you know a neck-snap would even hurt a Champ who could be cybernetic?

This made me lol. The Champ could also be a female twi'lek, a chiss fatass, or a human with sunglasses tan lines. With his legit TK, Tormen could just as easily keep him pressed against a wall like Sids did to actual Force users easily, choke them to death like Vader does four times before breakfast, or whirlwind him like Malak is capable of doing.

Evident fact: TK is only blockable by Force users unless it is a push which is line of sight wavelength. This is why Vader stomps Han Solo and Boba Fett.



Your mancrush for Champ is evident but you've ignored my points continually. In Movies Versus, quanch112 argues absolutely in favor of muggle Khan from Into Darkness over Yoda. Do you think he has a valid point too? He's danced arounbd TK like a spineless Jackie Chan with bullet ants up his ass. The bias is strong with that one.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This made me lol. The Champ could also be a female twi'lek, a chiss fatass, or a human with sunglasses tan lines. With his legit TK, Tormen could just as easily keep him pressed against a wall like Sids did to actual Force users easily, choke them to death like Vader does four times before breakfast, or whirlwind him like Malak is capable of doing.

Evident fact: TK is only blockable by Force users unless it is a push which is line of sight wavelength. This is why Vader stomps Han Solo and Boba Fett.

Could be, but isn't provably. Your whole point is that theres no way the Champ could survive against Tormen, Seros or Jarro since they have the Force and can snap his neck. I brought up a way. I don't need to prove that its the case, just that its a possibility, thus rebutting your argument.

The Champ has ways of dealing with all of those things you mentioned. You can't easily pin someone to a wall when they're wearing rocket boots AND a jetpack AND can fire missiles at you. Same for the others. The Champ can escape a whirlwind via jetpack and can fire missiles to interrupt a Force choke, provided he even needs to.

Don't you mean, only IF its that? Also didn't Fett give Vader a good fight?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Your mancrush for Champ is evident but you've ignored my points continually. In Movies Versus, quanch112 argues absolutely in favor of muggle Khan from Into Darkness over Yoda. Do you think he has a valid point too? He's danced around TK like a spineless Jackie Chan with bullet ants up his ass. The bias is strong with that one.

Your whole point is 'Force pwns lol". You've offered to actual evidence that its that easy and that theres no way to prevent it while I've offered stuff saying it can be done and theres the fact that he, y'know, actually did beat them? Look, I'll offer more evidence:

"Bounty Hunters are renowned for their versatility on the battlefield and their ability to go toe-to-toe with force-users. Their legendary abilities in this arena have earned them the nickname "Jedi Killers"."

And no, I don't think Quan has a point, but these are two different situations. Khan hasn't beaten several powerful Jedi and Sith in straight fights and isn't wearing state of the art battle armor + weapons. Some hunters spend as much on a blaster as they would on a starship, which should tell you about how damn well they're armed.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Nephthys
Could be, but isn't provably. Your whole point is that theres no way the Champ could survive against Tormen, Seros or Jarro since they have the Force and can snap his neck. I brought up a way. I don't need to prove that its the case, just that its a possibility, thus rebutting your argument.

The Champ has ways of dealing with all of those things you mentioned. You can't easily pin someone to a wall when they're wearing rocket boots AND a jetpack AND can fire missiles at you. Same for the others. The Champ can escape a whirlwind via jetpack and can fire missiles to interrupt a Force choke, provided he even needs to.

Don't you mean, only IF its that? Also didn't Fett give Vader a good fight?

He did and Vader acknowledged he'd done well but there's a few points.

The fight starts with Fett firing blasters, rockets etc and Vader just deflects or dodges everything. Vader starts using Force Crush and Fett jumps over a cliff. Vader rushes over (Fett has something he wants) and Fett nails him with a blaster shot between the eyes which stuns him for a moment.

Fett jetpacks up to the cliff. Vader says he did well and then uses Force Crush again. Fett kicks the item Vader wants over the cliff and escapes while Vader retrieves it.

So yeah, Fett held his own but he had no defense against Force Crush other than using the environment (i.e. the cliff edge). Also it's implied that Vader didn't open with Force Crush because he was toying with him. He says at one point, "I had hoped you would give me a contest bounty hunter. You must try harder" implying that he dragged the fight out for his own amusement.

Nephthys
Sure, but thats Vader. The guy can Force Crush tanks. Thats not indicative of other Force users.

Though, was he crushing Fetts armor or Fett himself?

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
Could be, but isn't provably. Your whole point is that theres no way the Champ could survive against Tormen, Seros or Jarro since they have the Force and can snap his neck. I brought up a way. I don't need to prove that its the case, just that its a possibility, thus rebutting your argument.

'No way' is incorrect. I said that IF a Force user applied TK liberally or at least consistently there's no reason to think they should lose a fight against someone else who couldn't defend against the technique. This is the same reason why Nihilus is a danger to most if not all Force users per your own comments and he lost to....Plot induced immunity.



See above. You can use the power more than just a one shot deal. This isn't a video game. Also, Vader could choke people across space and through starship hulls, so I'm sure if he just squeezed his fist, Boba would pass out unless Plot induced ADHD strikes Vader and he ignites his blade for an honorable bushido duel.



I used the example of Barriss and Phow Ji, who bare fisted killed several armed Confederate soldiers in Medstar... And they had distance on him too. Barriss notes that for all his strength, he is blind to the Force and has no defense against that permeating energy if brought to bear. You've countered with dodging a Force push, showings examples of Tormen killing everyone but the hero, and this quote about "toe to toe" which sounds like a load of wank.

Typing this out on a tablet is a pain in my ass. I'll bring something more definite later. This reply took half an hour...

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, but thats Vader. The guy can Force Crush tanks. Thats no indicative of other Force users.

Though, was he crushing Fetts armor or Fett himself?

Yeah that's true.

I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure Vader bypassed the armour and was crushing Fett himself. I seem to recall the armour looked undamaged.

As I said I'm not completely certain. I no longer have the comic unfortunately.

BTW, I've just looked a few scans up. My mistake, Vader's first direct Force use was a Mind Trick which Fett resisted. He only resorted to Force Crush after Fett shot him.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, Vader could choke people across space and through starship hulls, so I'm sure if he just squeezed his fist, Boba would pass out unless Plot induced ADHD strikes Vader and he ignites his blade for an honorable bushido duel.

That's pretty much what happened except it was less "honorable bushido duel" and more "I know I can easily beat you with the Force so I'll have some fun first."

Stealth Moose
Force-backed arrogance strikes me as PIS or near to the same thing.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Force-backed arrogance strikes me as PIS or near to the same thing.

I see your point and I admit that for the purposes of this forum it comes to much the same conclusion but, and I know I'm being nitpicky here, I don't really see characterisation as "PIS". It's just part of a good story.

Remember characters are not automatons that always do the logical thing. They have personality traits that affect how they behave. If a villain chooses to fight rather than just going for an auto-win because he's cocky or sadistic etc, that just means he has a weakness that usually proves to be his undoing.

Sorry, but I just can't call having actual characters with actual personalities the same thing as PIS. Just my view.

Again, I do understand what you're saying.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
'No way' is incorrect. I said that IF a Force user applied TK liberally or at least consistently there's no reason to think they should lose a fight against someone else who couldn't defend against the technique. This is the same reason why Nihilus is a danger to most if not all Force users per your own comments and he lost to....Plot induced immunity.

Exactly. You're saying that there's no way except PIS to explain how the Champ could win. That just isn't the case my friend.

The Nihilus comparison doesn't fly. Nihilus' technique has demonstrated its power and how easy it is to do. Meanwhile you're arguing Force users will use the Force in ways they haven't to win and against canon examples of the Champ beating people with it. Nihilus was only beaten because he fought someone immune to his technique. If, instead he fought someone seemingly without that immunity who still beat him..... I'd argue that that guy is just that good. Or that Nihilus' technique isn't as infallible as it appears.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
See above. You can use the power more than just a one shot deal. This isn't a video game. Also, Vader could choke people across space and through starship hulls, so I'm sure if he just squeezed his fist, Boba would pass out unless Plot induced ADHD strikes Vader and he ignites his blade for an honorable bushido duel.

Sure, but its not like the Champs going to be just standing there letting them. He can freaking attack as well. They aren't going to have free reign to just constantly try to pin him down with the Force.

I'm not sure that its that simple against someone as strong-willed and well conditioned as Fett. Unless he did something super precise like pinch his brain stem or whatever. But no-ones ever actually done that.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I used the example of Barriss and Phow Ji, who bare fisted killed several armed Confederate soldiers in Medstar... And they had distance on him too. Barriss notes that for all his strength, he is blind to the Force and has no defense against that permeating energy if brought to bear.

Lmao, Phow Ji fights with his freaking hands. Of course whats he gonna do against the Force! Punch it? He has the single worst style of fighting to use against a Force user. You can't really compare him to the Champ who, lets face it, is basically Iron Man with guns.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You've countered with dodging a Force push, showings examples of Tormen killing everyone but the hero, and this quote about "toe to toe" which sounds like a load of wank.

No, this would be wank:

FT4cLHU3Yd0

awepedo

Anyway, canon statements (thank you video devs) that Hunters can hang with the Force >> your opinion.

The only class I'd accept as being PIS in its wins is probably the Smuggler, since its noted that a lot of their edge comes from sheer luck.

Stealth Moose
Right sure thing Neph. I'm going to leave you to this thread so I don't slip in any questionable body fluids.

Nephthys
I win.

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