Sage Mode Naruto -Vs- Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan

SSJGGogeta

@ Q99: If I wanted to be an *******, I could argue that kid Goku was faster than light, because he grabbed Roshi's sunglasses as Tien used Solar flare, so he wouldn't be affected. Solar Flare is a technique that only uses light, and in the Daizenshuu is described as "A technique that allows the user to shoot pure light.", meaning it would be light speed, and kid Goku would be faster than light for dodging it. There are three DB/DBZ canon versions to go by though, English dub, Japanese dub, and Manga. Going by either of the three besides Japanese dub, Raditz WAS light speed.

Sure it was a filler, but even Roshi blew up the moon with a power level of 139. That's approximately a quarter of the Earth. Anyone four times stronger than Roshi is a planet buster. When Gohan went on a great ape rampage, Piccolo said he would destroy Earth before the Saiyans even got there. Then, Piccolo proceeded to destroy the moon with a simple ki blast that took two seconds to shoot off Earth and destroy the moon. Some would argue that the time frame is inaccurate, but the Daizenshuu says the Special beam canon was faster than light, hints the name "Light of Death", which was a bit faster than Piccolo's ki blast that destroyed the moon.

DBZ is inconsistent with destruction feats, but they condense their attacks to increase the damage and avoid destroying the ****ing galaxy on accident. Even the villains condense their attacks so they don't destroy the planet, so that they do more damage, like Frieza and his death beam.

cdtm

If Naruto never even had the nine tails, I wonder if he'd gotten to sage mode level or not...?

I'd like to think he would.. Gaara's still plenty powerful, even without his beast.

Either way, Naruto isn't beating SSJ2 Gohan here..

Q99

Nope.

If I see someone reaching for a light switch so I grab some sunglasses, that means I'm faster than their arm, not the light itself. Goku was just faster than the technique, not the light.

carver9

Well, Tien did do an attack that was describes as light speed.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media/250689-ten_lightspeed_punch_1_super.jpg.html?sort=3&o=202

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by carver9
Well, Tien did do an attack that was describes as light speed.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media/250689-ten_lightspeed_punch_1_super.jpg.html?sort=3&o=202

As did Haku.

BloodRain

Hah, smart.

SSJGGogeta

@ Demonic Phoenix: LOL, English dubbing error, unless you want to argue that Haku's kekkei genkei is as fast as the yellow flash jutsu, making him faster than anyone in Naruto besides Minato and Naruto himself. Even hiraishin was said to be on par with the speed of light, so unless you're going to argue that Haku could blitz Madara and Obito at the same time, I suggest you stop making yourself look like a dumb ass like you did on that other thread.

@ Q99: Okay, but he already used the technique and the light was clearly traveling around the arena before Goku moved. Not to mention that Tien could punch faster than light back then, with a power level of about 100-150. Raditz was 1,000. Power level gauges ki reservoirs which are used to amplify physical and mental abilities. If Raditz had ten times the ki Tien did, he can move ten times light speed.

Frieza in final form is inconceivably faster than light. Goku in SSJG is able to move SEXTILLIONS of times above light speed WITHOUT using instant transmission, which bypasses time completely. If you see someone flip a switch, and grab the sunglasses before the energy in the tungsten lights up and emanates, then yes, you ARE faster than light. You're also FTL if you dodge punches that move outward faster than light would, like kid Goku did.

Q99

Then that is a clear example of the artist not getting how light works and/or definitively demonstrating that light moves much, much slower in that universe than ours.

We regularly see them take time to travel distances. Ergo, nothing like our lightspeed.

Nope, he's massively slower in terms of his speed moving one place to another... . unless their light is very slow compared to ours, in which case, sure, why not?

SSJGGogeta

Light does not move instantly. Instant transmission does, but light does not. It moves very fast from our perception, but not instantly. DBZ is shown from the point of view of the characters. They are able to perceive faster things than they can move to a certain extent. When it showed the people watching the TV fight of Goku and Cell, they saw nothing but random explosions unless the characters were stationary for elongated periods. When Vegeta watched Goku fight Frieza, he saw the same thing, even though he was able to perceive people move that were incredibly faster than light, and move at MTFL himself. However, later, you could see the individual actions they both went through. This is because DBZ is showed through MANY different perspectives, to give you a better view of the raw power of the characters.

Why do you think that in the five minutes it took Namek to blow up, Goku had the time to fight Frieza for about 10 episodes, talk to Vegeta briefly, fake dying, hide to get a vantage point, let Gohan fight Frieza briefly, tell him to leave Namek, continue fighting Frieza for 5 or 6 episodes, get him cut in half, deliver a speech, give him energy, kill him after another speech, and STILL fly around the planet several times to find a spaceship to escape the explosion? They showed the fight from Goku's or Frieza's perspective to prolong the fight.

In Dragon Ball, Master Roshi and Krillin fought, spit on eachother, played rock-paper-scissors, fight some more, take a break and go back to the starting point in 1/5th of a second. Look it up in the manga, when Roshi called himself Jackie Chun and fought Krillin in their first tournament. It showed the whole thing from the announcers perspective, to show the shock when they described what happened.

Light travels outwards in all directions, and Goku moved FASTER than the light moved, to get from one place, to another and back, in the time it took for light to get from one place to another in a much shorter distance. Not to mention that Korin said using Zanzouken requires you to be able to move faster than light.

Q99

Compared to the speed characters have been shown moving at going from place to place? It might as well.

Remember when Gotenks circles the earth very quickly? And it's supposed to be impressive? That is very slow compared to light.

Also it's physically impossible to simply accelerate mass to or past light speed (not that fiction necessarily pays attention to that, but if one can accept acceleration past light, then it's even easier to accept slow light).

I really don't think you get how fast light.

SSJGGogeta

Did I not just explain that it SHOWS DBZ in different perspectives to make things like fights last longer? Even Akira Toriyama explained that Whiss's flight speed that flew across HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of galaxies in 22 minutes is as fast as Bill's combat speed, which SSJG Goku fought on par with. Light is over 186,000 miles per second, I understand that. However, when a character BLATANTLY states that they are faster or their move is faster, knowing their opponents limits, they DO have a reason.

Akira Toriyama said once, that Goku flew the entire distance of Namek's(which is ten times larger than Earth), radius fast enough to stop Frieza from stabbing his hand through Vegeta's heart when he was already holding him and getting ready to when Goku took off. Frieza was only using 1% of his power, but he was still at least a few thousand times faster than light. I can provide the calculations if you want, but I'm going to bed now, so it'll have to wait until tomorrow... or at least until I wake up.

Also, I don't have a clue of what you meant by "I really don't think you get how fast light.", so... yeah.

Q99

Yea, and even with that, we have plenty of actions where actual time is given, human characters have time to do stuff in between. Stuff like yoinking glasses from the other side of the planet is *only* quick with instant transmission... when an actual lightspeed person would be able to do it much, much faster than Goku did.

The only explanation that makes sense if you take those action as canon-slower-than-light is 'slow light'. Because light is waaaaay faster than that.

marwash22

Gohan doesn't need to transform.

SSJGGogeta

Okay, you clearly don't understand what I'm trying to say. Goku as a kid with a power level of 100-150 was able to dodge light speed punches, proving that he can perceive and move FASTER than light. With instant transmission, he went completely trough people's guards, who are literally QUADRILLIONS of times stronger, faster and perceptive than he was as a child, and instantly traveled from one place to another with no lapse of time. Goku IS "actual" lightspeed. Akira Toriyama wouldn't have said "light speed", if he didn't mean it. You're being completely brainless and close-minded. You're just upset because DBZ shits on almost any other anime/manga, and 90% of other fiction. I like DBZ, but I like many other series more, like Naruto, Bleach, Hirguashi(even though it's not a fighting anime), and many others, but I can ADMIT that DBZ eats them all for breakfast before taking it's morning shit.

BloodRain

Hah, name of an attack meaning everything. Love it.

SSJGGogeta

Hah, description of an attack in the cannon, author approved DBZ encyclopedia meaning everything. Still love it?

BloodRain

Yeah cause you just described nothing.

SSJGGogeta

Do you have a mental disorder? I wasn't claiming to be the author of Dragon Ball, dumb ass. I was saying that the Daizenshuu describes Tien as having an attack that charges his ki into his fists to the point where he can punch faster than light. You really need some kind of help.

BloodRain

Lol never said you were, pay attention.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ Demonic Phoenix: LOL, English dubbing error, unless you want to argue that Haku's kekkei genkei is as fast as the yellow flash jutsu, making him faster than anyone in Naruto besides Minato and Naruto himself. Even hiraishin was said to be on par with the speed of light, so unless you're going to argue that Haku could blitz Madara and Obito at the same time, I suggest you stop making yourself look like a dumb ass like you did on that other thread. @ SSJGGogeta: LOL, English dubbing error, unless you want to argue that Raditz's speed is as fast as the Instant Transmission, making him faster than anyone in DBZ besides Goku himself. Even Instant Transmission was said to be on par with the speed of light, so unless you're going to argue that Raditz could blitz Buu and Cell at the same time, I suggest you stop making yourself look like a dumb ass like you did on that other thread.

sacred108

I have to agree with Gogeta y'all just keep calling him a dumb ass and haven't proved him wrong. Solar Flare is a light based move meaning Light speed. Wait if that's the case wouldn't that mean everyone in DBZ is FTL.

BloodRain

Their 100m/s running says no. Snake Way says no, twice. Freeza on Namek says no. Tagged by attacks normal humans see says no. Etc etc.

But if you want to side with the guy you randomly and foolishly claims Goku is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 x faster than lightspeed.. go for it.

SSJGGogeta

@ Demonic Phoenix: LOL, English dubbing error, instant transmission was said to be light speed in only the english dub, the same one that said Raditz was light speed, lol. The Daizenshuu, or DBZ official encyclopedia, explains Instant Transmission as instantaneous, bypassing time itself. I guess all that you can argue about at all is flawed english dubs. You didn't even argue about anything I said about Haku, so I'm assuming since you go by the english dub, you still believe him to be able to blitz Pain, Raikage, Madara, Jyuubito, etc. It's too late, you've already made yourself look stupid again.

@ BloodRain: Uh, Goku ran at 100m/s when he was seven and didn't even know how to use ki, before he was trained by Roshi even. Goku conserved energy while running snake way, because the first time, he wasn't accustomed to flying and accidentally used most of his ki at once, and the second time because he didn't know how many senzu beans Korin would have and didn't want to arrive to fight the Saiyans without any ki, because he would have been as useless as Piccolo.

What about Frieza? The same Frieza who flew from one side of the planet ten times bigger than Earth, to the other in less time than it took for Dende to utter two sentences, in his 1st form? The same Frieza who blew up planet Vegeta and killed BILLIONS of light speed flying, superhumans with a wave of his finger in his 1st form? Frieza would EASILY solo the Naruto universe. Shit, Piccolo Jr. when fighting Goku would just as easily.

As sacred108 said, you guys haven't proven me wrong ONCE, so I don't know why you're claiming me to be foolish.

@ sacred108: Thank you kind sir. Plus, yes, basically everyone in DBZ and a lot of DB characters that fight are faster than light. They show DB and DBZ from different perspectives so you don't just see characters vanishing and random explosions, then someones dead body on the ground after 2 seconds.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ Demonic Phoenix: LOL, English dubbing error, instant transmission was said to be light speed in only the english dub, the same one that said Raditz was light speed, lol. The Daizenshuu, or DBZ official encyclopedia, explains Instant Transmission as instantaneous, bypassing time itself. I guess all that you can argue about at all is flawed english dubs. You didn't even argue about anything I said about Haku, so I'm assuming since you go by the english dub, you still believe him to be able to blitz Pain, Raikage, Madara, Jyuubito, etc. It's too late, you've already made yourself look stupid again.

@ SSJGGogeta: LOL, The Naruto Databook, or Naruto official encyclopedia, explains Haku's jutsu as lightspeed, and says Sasuke is faster than Haku. I guess all that you can argue about at all is your fantasy bullshit. You didn't even argue about anything anyone has said about Raditz, so I'm assuming since you go by your fantasy bullshit, you still believe him to be able to blitz Freeza, Cell, Buu, Bills, etc. It's too late, you've already made yourself look stupid again.

carver9

DBZ flight speed wasn't that great but their combat speed was multiples of times faster. Also, lasers is blinding to the necked eye. Frieza was shooting blast that was unseen by super human eyes. Vegeta was able to perceive these said blasts and react to it. Goku was slapping these same attacks out of the air with one hand.

Lasers is FTL.

carver9

Originally posted by BloodRain
Their 100m/s running says no. Snake Way says no, twice. Freeza on Namek says no. Tagged by attacks normal humans see says no. Etc etc.

Are you rest making this argument? Using this, 99% of the characters that you claim goes light speed would be thrown out of the window. Batman has slapped Flash, someone you've argued for in the past.

dadudemon

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Sure it was a filler, but even Roshi blew up the moon with a power level of 139.

I did the math (real math*...not the atrocious bullshit you see on OBD) and the earth is ~82 times more massive than the earth. I have no idea where the **** you got 1/4.

*No one tell him I just did simple division on a calculator.

Originally posted by carver9
...necked...

HA! Necked...just how I like yo mamma! 313

dadudemon: the 80s called. They want their jokes back.

PWNED!

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by carver9
DBZ flight speed wasn't that great but their combat speed was multiples of times faster. Also, lasers is blinding to the necked eye. Frieza was shooting blast that was unseen by super human eyes. Vegeta was able to perceive these said blasts and react to it. Goku was slapping these same attacks out of the air with one hand.

Lasers is FTL.

1) Lasers aren't FTL.
2) Freeza's attacks are never shown to be FTL.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I did the math (real math*...not the atrocious bullshit you see on OBD) and the earth is ~82 times more massive than the earth. I have no idea where the **** you got 1/4.

*No one tell him I just did simple division on a calculator.

It's obvious. The numbers he gives have been pulled from his ass.

I'd say he thinks the Moon is 1/4 the size of the Earth because its radius, diameter & circumference (mostly circumference) are around 1/4 that of the Earth's. 2 dimensional thinking much?

cdtm

What are you supposed to make of time dilation effects?

Like broken glass seemingly hanging in mid air, or droplets of water taking what looks like five minutes to fall? (On the extreme example end, Cyborg 001 being stuck in super speed mode for about a week or two, and the world frozen around him?)

What sort of speed does it take to have minimal effects, and can extreme effects happen at sub light?

cdtm

For a dbz specific example:

End of dragon ball/pre z while fighting Piccolo, Goku seems to vanish from sight in the middle of the ring, to not only the crowd and Roshi/Krillin, but Kami (Closest to Piccolo before Goku) as well.

This isn't Kenshin passing someone faster then they can follow, but vanishing in a centralized location, in front of a crowd.

What does it represent in terms of speed?

SSJGGogeta

@ Demonic Phoenix: The only thing that describes Haku's jutsu as light speed is the Naruto wiki, which is written by ignorant fan-tards such as yourself. The Naruto databook doesn't say anywhere in it that Haku was lightspeed, and in fact states that Hiraishin is the fastest jutsu in the series by far, as it allows ninja to move at the speed of light.

Still, you completely ignored what I said. The Yellow flash jutsu is lightspeed. It has been used to easily dodge characters like Jyuubito, Raikage and other speed houses in the series. Going by poor dubline, I guess that 9 tails chakra mode PTS Naruto could easily speed-blitz Jyuubito, Raikage and everyone else that has been ROFL-blitzed by Hiraishin. Unless you want to argue that Naruto to be faster than current Naruto, Minato, Jyuubito, etc.(but I know how stupid you have proven to be in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me), your argument just completely collapsed in on itself.

Who said anything about Raditz that I haven't disproven or debunked yet? Kid Goku was faster than light, and Raditz speed blitzed a stronger version of Goku AND Piccolo, who was nearly his equal in speed and power. Raditz was FAR faster than light, about 6-8 times faster in fact, going by the fact that Raditz had a power level of 1,000-1,200, and Kid Goku was LS-FTL at a power level of at most 150.

I find it hilarious that you have the audacity to call me stupid, when you're the one who's been using a broken dub in all of your arguments. Not to mention the fact that you've still COMPLETELY ignored anything I said about Kid Goku being light speed, while simply arguing that "Raditz wasn't FTL, fail dub.", while I haven't even said anything about Raditz! I've based my entire argument on Kid Goku being LS-FTL, and haven't said anything about Raditz's speed until now. Since Kid Goku was LS-FTL, and Raditz was 6-8 times stronger/faster than him, unless we go by your logic saying that weak, slow people are somehow faster than strong, fast people, Raditz IS 6-8 times FTL AT LEAST.

Again, it's too late. Everyone on here now knows you're a dumb ass.

@ dadudemon: Excuse me? When did I say anything about mass? The moon has a diameter of 3,474 km, and the Earth has a diameter of 12,800 km, so, the Earth is 3.68 times bigger than the moon, i.e. "The moon is about 1/4th the size of the Earth.". Make sense now? By the way, you must be pretty stupid to have to make a counter argument about an argument that doesn't exist. I never said anything about mass stupid, I said the moon is 1/4 the size of Earth. Learn the difference, go back to 1st grade.

So... yeah. You guys are stupid as ****.

BloodRain

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ BloodRain: Uh, Goku ran at 100m/s when he was seven and didn't even know how to use ki, before he was trained by Roshi even. Goku conserved energy while running snake way, because the first time, he wasn't accustomed to flying and accidentally used most of his ki at once, and the second time because he didn't know how many senzu beans Korin would have and didn't want to arrive to fight the Saiyans without any ki, because he would have been as useless as Piccolo.

What about Frieza? The same Frieza who flew from one side of the planet ten times bigger than Earth, to the other in less time than it took for Dende to utter two sentences, in his 1st form? The same Frieza who blew up planet Vegeta and killed BILLIONS of light speed flying, superhumans with a wave of his finger in his 1st form? Frieza would EASILY solo the Naruto universe. Shit, Piccolo Jr. when fighting Goku would just as easily.
Actually Goku ran just under 12m/s. He didn't get ki training from Roshi. Lol what? Do you know how fast light is? If Goku was light speed he could cover Snake way in 3 seconds. Well, that'd be kid Goku. By your scaling Goku going there should be 3xFTL able to do it in 1 second, going back he'd apparently be 33xFTL making it past Snake Way in 0.1 seconds.. Instead it took him around 2 days. That is less than 0.00006% of his 'FTL' speed.

This sure looks like half a planet away The same Freeza in his final form saw the dragon a dozen miles away and failed to rush over there before Dende starts chatting to it. And by your powerscaling he's meant to be what, 800,000xFTL?

I guess Chichi would be almost lightspeed too?

carver9

Nitpicking...just straight up nitpicking fts. Ill post a scan of Flash, Superman, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, and Northstar flying somewhere in a hurry but failing to do so. One sec.

carver9

Originally posted by BloodRain
Actually Goku ran just under 12m/s. He didn't get ki training from Roshi. Lol what? Do you know how fast light is? If Goku was light speed he could cover Snake way in 3 seconds. Well, that'd be kid Goku. By your scaling Goku going there should be 3xFTL able to do it in 1 second, going back he'd apparently be 33xFTL making it past Snake Way in 0.1 seconds.. Instead it took him around 2 days. That is less than 0.00006% of his 'FTL' speed.

This sure looks like half a planet away The same Freeza in his final form saw the dragon a dozen miles away and failed to rush over there before Dende starts chatting to it. And by your powerscaling he's meant to be what, 800,000xFTL?

I guess Chichi would be almost lightspeed too?

I'm going to use every character you've debated against me in the past.

Please explain. You've argued with me that Superman can combat at light speed (I no-longer want to argue this topic; I just want you to see how reta... I mean, 'crazy' your thoughts is on the subject.

Faster than light cards?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/00_Prelude_to_Infinite_Crisispdf-019.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/00_Prelude_to_Infinite_Crisispdf-020.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/00_Prelude_to_Infinite_Crisispdf-021.jpg

I'm not done.

carver9

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ Demonic Phoenix: The only thing that describes Haku's jutsu as light speed is the Naruto wiki, which is written by ignorant fan-tards such as yourself. The Naruto databook doesn't say anywhere in it that Haku was lightspeed, and in fact states that Hiraishin is the fastest jutsu in the series by far, as it allows ninja to move at the speed of light.

Still, you completely ignored what I said. The Yellow flash jutsu is lightspeed. It has been used to easily dodge characters like Jyuubito, Raikage and other speed houses in the series. Going by poor dubline, I guess that 9 tails chakra mode PTS Naruto could easily speed-blitz Jyuubito, Raikage and everyone else that has been ROFL-blitzed by Hiraishin. Unless you want to argue that Naruto to be faster than current Naruto, Minato, Jyuubito, etc.(but I know how stupid you have proven to be in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me), your argument just completely collapsed in on itself.

Who said anything about Raditz that I haven't disproven or debunked yet? Kid Goku was faster than light, and Raditz speed blitzed a stronger version of Goku AND Piccolo, who was nearly his equal in speed and power. Raditz was FAR faster than light, about 6-8 times faster in fact, going by the fact that Raditz had a power level of 1,000-1,200, and Kid Goku was LS-FTL at a power level of at most 150.

I find it hilarious that you have the audacity to call me stupid, when you're the one who's been using a broken dub in all of your arguments. Not to mention the fact that you've still COMPLETELY ignored anything I said about Kid Goku being light speed, while simply arguing that "Raditz wasn't FTL, fail dub.", while I haven't even said anything about Raditz! I've based my entire argument on Kid Goku being LS-FTL, and haven't said anything about Raditz's speed until now. Since Kid Goku was LS-FTL, and Raditz was 6-8 times stronger/faster than him, unless we go by your logic saying that weak, slow people are somehow faster than strong, fast people, Raditz IS 6-8 times FTL AT LEAST.

Again, it's too late. Everyone on here now knows you're a dumb ass.

@ SSJGGogeta: The only thing that describes Goku's technique as light speed is the dub, which is misinterpreted by ignorant fan-tards such as yourself. The DBZ databook doesn't say anywhere in it that Goku was lightspeed, and in fact states that Instant Transmission is the fastest technique in the series by far, as it allows people to move at the speed of light.

Still, you completely ignored what everyone has said. Goku is not lightspeed. Going by poor dubline, I guess that Freeza could easily speed-blitz Cell, Buu and everyone else that has been ROFL-blitzed by Instant Transmission. Unless you want to argue that Kid Goku to be faster than current Goku, Vegeta, Buu, etc.(but I know how stupid you have proven to be in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me), your argument just completely collapsed in on itself.

Who said anything about Goku that others haven't disproven or debunked yet? Haku was faster than light, and Naruto speed blitzed a stronger version of Haku AND Zabuza, who was nearly his equal in speed and power. Naruto was FAR faster than light, about 50 times faster in fact, going by the fact that Haku was barely as fast as Sasuke, who was much slower than Lee.

I find it hilarious that you have the audacity to call me stupid, when you're the one who's been using a broken dub in all of your arguments. Not to mention the fact that you've still COMPLETELY ignored anything anyone has said about Kid Goku being light speed, while simply arguing that "Kid Goku was FTL, fail wiki." Since Haku was LS-FTL, and Naruto was 50 times stronger/faster than him, unless we go by your logic saying that weak, slow people are somehow faster than strong, fast people, Naruto IS 50 times FTL AT LEAST.

Again, it's too late. Everyone on here now knows you're a dumb ass.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by carver9
Explain.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/week42-1999-Action-759-08.jpg

About to post scans of Flash, then Gladiator next.

Your argument invalidates itself when you consider the fact that the mainstream flagship characters of these comic books are written by several different teams of people over the years, leading to the existence of ridiculous low-end and high-end feats.

Dragon Ball doesn't have that luxury. It was written by one man who has in general remained far more consistent with the levels of power his characters have displayed over the course of the story.

BloodRain

To sum up any responses to you, carv, it's that characters like Flash and Superman have dozens of undeniable quantifiable feats supporting FTL.

I mean count the supposed light speed feats in all of DB. We have kid Goku grabbing the glasses..

..fail in itself as if he was LS Roshi and Tien would also be up there, two characters who have proven to have similar speed but failed to notice Goku's movement. How quantifiable does this sound?..

..and what else proves LS and above?

SSJGGogeta

@ Demonic Phoenix: Since all you've argued about is flawed dubs, I'm gonna post some manga scans to end this argument.

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c336/3,

Since when does light move instantaneously? If instant transmission is light speed as you and the flawed dub claim, then light speed must now bypass time itself, no? If that's true, I guess Naruto can go as fast as TOAA, right? I can't believe how dumb you are. -_-

http://www.mangasee.com/manga/series=Naruto&chapter=25&index=1&page=12

Nothing about Haku being light speed. Him saying it transports him means nothing. I can be transported by a car, does that make me light speed, or my car? No, transportation is transportation, not light speed movement. Once again, explain how this is light speed if Naruto counters it, when Minato and current Naruto can only move AT light speed with a special jutsu that was said to be the fastest jutsu in the ninja world? Not just that, but also considering the fact that the Raikage, who moves as fast as lightning, moved faster than Post timeskip Sasuke's sharingan could see.

So, again with your logic, I guess that Sasuke was faster when he was a kid, and had a stronger sharingan when he only had one tomoe, compared to his mangekyou sharingan. Nowhere was it stated Haku was light speed, but if it was, give me scans and also show scans of where it says yellow flash is faster than light, or it's not true/didn't happen, lol.

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/6
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/7
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/8
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/9

You can obviously see that Tien activated the Solar Flare/Taiyoken before Goku moved at all. Also, Goku didn't know what the Solar flare/Taiyoken was until he saw the flash begin to erupt, so it also caught him partially off-guard, and he was closer to Tien than he was to Roshi/Jackie, so that proves kid Goku, with a power level of about 150, moves faster than light does, at least at close range.

Also, when and where was it stated that Naruto was "50 times faster and stronger than Haku"? Naruto doesn't have power levels so you can't prove something like that unless it's outright stated. So, give some scans proving Naruto to be 50 times faster than light, or you're just an idiot fanboy, like you've proven to be in the past.

BloodRain

The lightspeed Haku line DP's talking about was in a databook Kishi made.

Also would like your thoughts on this;
"If he was LS, Roshi and Tien would also be up there, two characters who have proven to have similar speed but failed to notice Goku's movement. How quantifiable does this sound?"

Bentley

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You can obviously see that Tien activated the Solar Flare/Taiyoken before Goku moved at all. Also, Goku didn't know what the Solar flare/Taiyoken was until he saw the flash begin to erupt, so it also caught him partially off-guard,

If you want to be taking seriously in a debate, you should defend reasonable argument, but most of al stop spouting lies.

Here you have Goku being affected by Taiyoken in a previous chapter:

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c124/3

Clearly he knew what he was up against, so he could just react to Tien activating the tech instead of reacting against light itself.

Frieza was caught in a Taiyouken by Krillin, and Cell used it too (against Piccolo I think) to escape from a battle, so those much faster characters failed to react against a light based attack. Those opponents actually didn't see the move coming and couldn't react properly.

Your logic would admit that anyone weaker than imperfect Cell at least is slower than light, as they were affected for Taiyouken.

Unrelated note: Did some GT characters get hit by Taiyouken? If so, this flawless logic proves that they are slower than light.

Good job at proving GT characters are slowpokes compared to people with actual lightspeed reaction times SSJGGogeta! thumb up

SSJGGogeta

@ Bentley: You talk about people spouting lies, yet you use GT to try explaining cannon events in the anime/manga... Akira Toriyama had no part in GT except for the character design of Pan, making the movies of DBZ even more cannon than GT, which is just a big plot hole itself, as Baby Vegeta who fought on par with SSJ4 Goku couldn't blow up Earth with a full power super galick gun, something that even Saiyan saga Vegeta was capable of in DBZ.

IIRC, Frieza was never hit by a Taiyoken, but if he was, it was because he probably didn't know what it was. Cell used it against Piccolo to escape momentarily, but that was because he dropped his power level to unreadable levels, even to the Z-fighters(which he could only do because he was an android), after the brief opening that Solar flare gave him. Piccolo didn't have any sunglasses around, and didn't want to leave Cell because he would escape again, putting him in an un-winable situation. Being affected by Solar flare has nothing to do with speed, it has to do with your sight and resistance to... light, but if you can move faster than it and there just so happens to be a pair of sunglasses around, you can avoid it.

Now, while I admit DBZ characters can't fly for distances at lightspeed until later in the series(about the Frieza arc, like how Goku effortlessly traveled from one side of Namek, which was 10X the size of Earth, to the other in less than a second), they can fight at MFTL and sustain that speed for prolonged battles. An example is when Goku fought Vegeta and used Kaioken for the second time. He had an entire battle with Vegeta that lasted several manga pages, in the time it took for his heart to beat once. Here is proof.

http://mangawall.com/manga/dragon-ball/227/3
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/6
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/7
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/8
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/9
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/10
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/11
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/12
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/13
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c232/14

Now, when Piccolo destroyed the moon, he did it with a simple ki blast. It took a two seconds for the explosion to show, and it takes light a little more than a second to travel from Earth to the moon, but it took two seconds for the explosion to be seen, so the blast was a little faster than light. This simple ki blast was shot by Piccolo without charging any ki. Now, when he used Special beam cannon the first time, he said it was his fastest, and most deadly technique. While this proves that it is faster than the beam he shot at the moon that was faster than light, Raditz was still able to dodge it.

Also, Tien used a technique that he claimed to make him able to punch faster than light. This is confirmed in the Daizenshuu. However, the Daizenshuu also states that Goku would have probably been able to dodge it, if it wasn't for Chiaotzu using his psychic abilities to immobilize him. In DBZ, flight speed is much slower than combat speed, so while someone like Superman may beat Goku in a race across the universe(if Goku wasn't using IT or SSJG and it was PC Superman or above), he couldn't keep up with his fighting speed, and couldn't measure to Goku's destructive capabilities(because PC Superman destroyed an asteroid belt with an uncontrollable sneeze, and Goku in base is quadrillions of times stronger in the Buu saga than someone who could destroy planets with a single attack, but that's not what I'm debating here).

Not to mention the fact that Goku and Tien easily dodged waves of photons shot by Dr. Gero, and as you should know, photons move at the speed of light. So... yeah.

@ BloodRain: I have read Haku's bio in the databook my friend owns just to solve this and I saw nothing that claimed Haku as light speed or faster. Also, Roshi was easily defeated by Tien. Goku was much faster and stronger than Roshi at that point, and was also faster and stronger than Tien by quite a bit. Tien even said that Goku was physically superior to him, but Tien simply had a larger arsenal of techniques which gave him the advantage and allowed him to win with luck.

Goku was known in Dragon Ball for his strength, but mostly for his tremendous speed. Roshi even commented while Goku fought Piccolo that Goku's best attribute has always been his speed and ability to vanish from even experienced eyes, including those of Kami. So, it isn't too difficult to believe that Goku can move faster than Tien or Roshi could see at that point.

BloodRain

How does a flash of light surprise those trillions+ times faster than it?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ BloodRain: I have read Haku's bio in the databook my friend owns just to solve this and I saw nothing that claimed Haku as light speed or faster. Also, Roshi was easily defeated by Tien. Goku was much faster and stronger than Roshi at that point, and was also faster and stronger than Tien by quite a bit. Tien even said that Goku was physically superior to him, but Tien simply had a larger arsenal of techniques which gave him the advantage and allowed him to win with luck.

Goku was known in Dragon Ball for his strength, but mostly for his tremendous speed. Roshi even commented while Goku fought Piccolo that Goku's best attribute has always been his speed and ability to vanish from even experienced eyes, including those of Kami. So, it isn't too difficult to believe that Goku can move faster than Tien or Roshi could see at that point.
I don't recall Tien being able to blitz Roshi without him even knowing it. Goku and Tien were roughly equals, whether or not one was above is meaningless as it would be like comparing early Goku to Krillin. Nothing notable. Though what you're saying is that Goku is so fast that he can outpace light and effortlessly blitz someone on near equal footing who has the same powerlevel, who is apparently also meant to be light speed.

But if Tien was lightspeed he wouldn't use a flash that was slower than himself, knowing Goku is faster..

carver9

Originally posted by BloodRain
To sum up any responses to you, carv, it's that characters like Flash and Superman have dozens of undeniable quantifiable feats supporting FTL.

I mean count the supposed light speed feats in all of DB. We have kid Goku grabbing the glasses..

..fail in itself as if he was LS Roshi and Tien would also be up there, two characters who have proven to have similar speed but failed to notice Goku's movement. How quantifiable does this sound?..

..and what else proves LS and above?

There are plenty of Light Speed showings, you just fail to realize it. Like DBZ blasts going FTL but more powerful attacks are shot at DBZ characters but you state the attack is much slower than a non full powered blast. The fts are there, you just dont want to accept it.

Gohan and Krillin outracing their KI attacks...attacks faster than Piccolo and Roshi moon busting attacks. Thats proof enough.

carver9

Originally posted by BloodRain
How does a flash of light surprise those trillions+ times faster than it?

I don't recall Tien being able to blitz Roshi without him even knowing it. Goku and Tien were roughly equals, whether or not one was above is meaningless as it would be like comparing early Goku to Krillin. Nothing notable. Though what you're saying is that Goku is so fast that he can outpace light and effortlessly blitz someone on near equal footing who has the same powerlevel, who is apparently also meant to be light speed.

But if Tien was lightspeed he wouldn't use a flash that was slower than himself, knowing Goku is faster..

What flash did Tien use that is slower than his body movement?

carver9

Another question, why would Akira name Tien attack "light speed punches"? What was the point of that?

Bentley

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ Bentley: You talk about people spouting lies

Did you lie? Don't try to get out of it by some -failed- attempt of making an argument of authority. Just accept it and consider my recommendation: don't try to convince others with lies and get your facts straight.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ , yet you use GT to try explaining cannon events in the anime/manga...

Except I clearly said "in an unrelated note" to point out it had no bearing in the debate. This is one pointless nitpicking that could have been left out if you took enough time to read through my post.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ IIRC, Frieza was never hit by a Taiyoken, but if he was, it was because he probably didn't know what it was.

Maybe it was anime filler, if I recall correctly it was Krillin using it against his second form. If it's non-canon then never mind.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Being affected by Solar flare has nothing to do with speed, it has to do with your sight and resistance to... light, but if you can move faster than it and there just so happens to be a pair of sunglasses around, you can avoid it. .

You are the one arguing that you can evade it with speed, for me the showing of the tournament doesn't imply outrunning speed at all. Goku simply had to outrun Tien's use of Taiyouken and not light itself, because he knew as soon as Tien was in position exactly what was going to happen and devised a plan.

I'm open to the possibility of characters being lightspeed or beyond, I don't particularly care if it's the case. However, the tournament showing isn't proof on and by itself of any lightspeed movement. I encourage you to bring other proof, there is no sense to have a debate if both sides aren't open to change their stances.

BloodRain

Originally posted by carver9
There are plenty of Light Speed showings, you just fail to realize it. Like DBZ blasts going FTL but more powerful attacks are shot at DBZ characters but you state the attack is much slower than a non full powered blast. The fts are there, you just dont want to accept it.

Gohan and Krillin outracing their KI attacks...attacks faster than Piccolo and Roshi moon busting attacks. Thats proof enough. Lol you named one..that's plenty? One non-outlier of an attack with no timeframe that would leak at relativistic, with every other one being either unquantifiable or far away from lightspeed, like humans reacting to the actual beams in motion.

So what else do we have? The name of an attack? Have we really sunk this low? Because again I could show you a normal human character calling his punch a 'supersonic fist. It means jack all.. and iirc that was a dub error?

Originally posted by carver9
What flash did Tien use that is slower than his body movement?
Solar flare, obviously. If Tien could for the most part track and keep up with Goku's speed, and your claim is that Goku here is FTL, that would mean that Tien also has that speed or at very least is LS. Which means that for some reason Tien chose to send out a flash that was slower than himself and definitely slower than Goku.

Not only would this mean that the tactically combat smart Tien was stupid enough to do the equivalence of you rannuimg up to me with sand in your hand while yelling yours gonna throw it in my eyes.. But this also calls into question how characters above Super Saiyans are being easily blinded by a flasg far slower than themselves. How bad would it be to be caught offguard by something moving as fast as the speed of hair growth?

dadudemon

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ dadudemon: Excuse me? When did I say anything about mass? The moon has a diameter of 3,474 km, and the Earth has a diameter of 12,800 km, so, the Earth is 3.68 times bigger than the moon, i.e. "The moon is about 1/4th the size of the Earth.". Make sense now?

Only someone very ignorant would think a 2-dimensional comparison was appropriate. That person is you, in case you were wondering.

You have no clue why mass is important for blowing up planetary objects.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
By the way, you must be pretty stupid to have to make a counter argument about an argument that doesn't exist. I never said anything about mass stupid, I said the moon is 1/4 the size of Earth. Learn the difference, go back to 1st grade.

You said: "That's approximately a quarter of the Earth. Anyone four times stronger than Roshi is a planet buster."

Which is wrong. It would take roughly 82 times the amount of energy, assuming similar density (hint: the earth is more dense than the moon so it would actually take even more energy per average unit of volume).

You would need a character at least 82 times as powerful, good sir.

Basically, the goal is to overcome the gravitational binding energy. If you can do that, you can blow it up. That would be the minimum requirement.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So... yeah. You guys are stupid as ****.

lol

Read these things:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/09/13/blastr-so-you-wanna-blow-up-the-earth/#.UqnpW8RDvTo

http://www.blastr.com/2011/09/astronomer_explains_why_w.php

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Gravitational_binding_energy.html

http://io9.com/5876473/how-much-energy-would-the-death-star-require-to-destroy-earth

http://clarionfoundation.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/blowing-up-planets/

Once you stop drowning in ignorance, your head will be above the water level in "The Sea of Ignorance". Getting your head above the water level is just the start. At that point, you'd just start to be able to breath. It will take you many years to be able to reach my level, much less tread water.

So, work on getting your head above the water level. In a decade, you might be able to ascend and join me in the Heavens of Knowledge...but I doubt it.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ Demonic Phoenix: Since all you've argued about is flawed dubs, I'm gonna post some manga scans to end this argument.

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c336/3,

Since when does light move instantaneously? If instant transmission is light speed as you and the flawed dub claim, then light speed must now bypass time itself, no? If that's true, I guess Naruto can go as fast as TOAA, right? I can't believe how dumb you are. -_-

http://www.mangasee.com/manga/series=Naruto&chapter=25&index=1&page=12

Nothing about Haku being light speed. Him saying it transports him means nothing. I can be transported by a car, does that make me light speed, or my car? No, transportation is transportation, not light speed movement. Once again, explain how this is light speed if Naruto counters it, when Minato and current Naruto can only move AT light speed with a special jutsu that was said to be the fastest jutsu in the ninja world? Not just that, but also considering the fact that the Raikage, who moves as fast as lightning, moved faster than Post timeskip Sasuke's sharingan could see.

So, again with your logic, I guess that Sasuke was faster when he was a kid, and had a stronger sharingan when he only had one tomoe, compared to his mangekyou sharingan. Nowhere was it stated Haku was light speed, but if it was, give me scans and also show scans of where it says yellow flash is faster than light, or it's not true/didn't happen, lol.

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/6
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/7
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/8
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/9

You can obviously see that Tien activated the Solar Flare/Taiyoken before Goku moved at all. Also, Goku didn't know what the Solar flare/Taiyoken was until he saw the flash begin to erupt, so it also caught him partially off-guard, and he was closer to Tien than he was to Roshi/Jackie, so that proves kid Goku, with a power level of about 150, moves faster than light does, at least at close range.

Also, when and where was it stated that Naruto was "50 times faster and stronger than Haku"? Naruto doesn't have power levels so you can't prove something like that unless it's outright stated. So, give some scans proving Naruto to be 50 times faster than light, or you're just an idiot fanboy, like you've proven to be in the past.

@ SSJGGogeta: Since all you've argued about is flawed logic, I'm gonna post some manga scans to end this argument.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/129659/3243172-reflec.png

Since when does light move instantaneously? If instant transmission is faster than light speed as you and the flawed dub claim, then light speed must now bypass time itself, no? If that's true, I guess Goku can go as fast as TOAA, right? I can't believe how dumb you are. -_-

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c130/9

Nothing about Goku being light speed. Once again, explain how this is light speed, when Goku can only move AT light speed with a special technique?

So, again with your logic, I guess that Goku was faster when he was a kid, Nowhere was it stated Kid Goku was light speed, but if it was, give me scans and also show scans of where it says Goku is faster than light, or it's not true/didn't happen, lol.

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/Naruto/c27/6
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/Naruto/c27/12
http://www.mangapark.com/manga/Naruto/c27/13

You can obviously see that Haku moved before Sasuke moved at all. Also, Sasuke didn't know what Haku was doing until he saw the Haku begin to move, so it also caught him partially off-guard, and Haku was closer to Naruto than Sasuke was to Naruto, so that proves Sasuke, with a one tomoe sharingan, moves faster than light does, at least at close range.

Speed doesn't scale linearly with power levels so you can't prove something like that unless it's outright stated. So, give some scans proving Goku to be faster than light, or you're just an idiot fanboy, like you've proven to be in the past.

BloodRain

Well played old chap.

SSJGGogeta

@ Demonic Phoenix: Again, how does Haku saying transport prove he's light speed? A car provides transportation, and I am being transported by riding in it, so I guess I am light speed, aren't I? Again, you've completely ignored the scans I've posted. Goku STATES that his move lets him move INSTANTLY, nowhere is it said to be light speed, lol. The definition of the word "transport", is "To carry or convey from one place to another.", not "Moving at light speed because I'm a Naruto fan-tard.". It would be different if Haku said it teleports him, but he didn't.

What the **** are you talking about? When did I ever claim light speed to bypass time itself? You're the only who made that claim, when you said that Instant transmission was light speed, when I just sent a scan PROVING it was instantaneous. Now since I know you think it's funny and clever to repeat the style of typing I use, I just want to add that you have literally debunked NONE of what I've typed. I have already destroyed your entire argument, yet you continue like you're accomplishing something. You can speculate Haku to be light speed, but you would have to be a dumb ass to do so, as 12 year old Naruto easily out sped him, and 17 year old Naruto, the fastest character in Naruto, can only go lightspeed, and can only accomplish the feat with a jutsu.

I know you're going to do the same thing again, and say instant transmission is light speed, and so is Haku(even though Yellow flash jutsu is also light speed), so get it over with. I'm tired of beating a dead horse, so just stop embarrassing yourself already.

@ dadudemon: Nice try at the superiority argument. It almost had some feasibility until you claimed size to be 2nd dimensional. Length, Width and Height all compose 3rd dimensional objects, idiot. No one argued anything about density on this entire forum except you. In DBZ, destroying planets and other celestial objects is a matter of size, not a matter of density, as proven by Supreme kai saying that destroying objects of size was easy, when the hardest metal in the universe was materialized by him when testing the Z-sword.

There doesn't have to be any specific science to it, just simple mathematical equations regarding size. DBZ characters move faster than light on a casual basis, bypass time itself, and destroy planets like they're pebbles. Science obviously doesn't apply to DBZ, lol. In real life, matter cannot be accelerated to the speed of light no matter what, time effects everything in the universe and exists everywhere, and planets are only destroyed by things like Supernova's, black holes, etc. DBZ is FICTION, idiot, let me repeat, FICTION.

Do you see Superman explaining the density of the asteroids he blew away when he sneezed, and how much force was required to do so, when he did? No, lol. You have no idea what Akira Toriyama was thinking when he made DBZ characters blow up planets, and since it obviously had nothing to do with science, you're an idiot for trying to apply scientific facts to a FICTION, one more time, FICTION, series. There is nothing about science and gravity and density, and other things in real life, in DBZ in regards to planet busting. It's very sad that you have to act as though fiction series are real life though, it makes me feel very sorry for you.

Also, that little metaphor you posted was really cute, but I gotta point out a few flaws. If I was drowning and stopped drowning, why would you assume I could suddenly breathe oxygen? I would have only been drowning if I could breathe oxygen in the first place. I could have very well died instead also. Or simply evolved into an aquatic life form... Hopefully a dolphin... Also, why did you capitalize the word knowledge? Maybe I'M the superiorly intelligent life-form here, because at least I know how to properly use the English language when I must. Also, you saying "It will take you many years to be able to reach my level, much less tread water.", implies that you can't even keep yourself upright in the sea of ignorance, yet you claim to be on a superior intellectual plane, when you yourself haven't even "Taken your first breath of oxygen", which by what you claimed, I already have. Not to mention the fact that I'm typing this on a computer, and using proper English, which is something that an aquatic creature is *currently* incapable of accomplishing.

Again though, your delusional, pitiful 1st grade excuse for a metaphor was really cute. I just hope you come up with another miraculously incomprehensibly intelligent argument of science when in regards to a FICTION series, so I can embarrass your "intelligence" again, lol.

Luffygear4

no no no, you guys have it all wrong. it should be sage mode Naruto AND super saiyan 2 teen Gohan VS Sabo pre aces mera mera no mi. thats a fight, but im leen towards sabo...

dadudemon

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ dadudemon: Nice try at the superiority argument. It almost had some feasibility until you claimed size to be 2nd dimensional. Length, Width and Height all compose 3rd dimensional objects, idiot.

Whew! It's a good thing that you said "diameter" and made no other clarification.

Here's what you said because you seem to have forgotten:

Hint: two-dimensional objects have diameters. lol

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No one argued anything about density on this entire forum except you.

That's because I just so happen to be educated and smart n'stuff. Unlike you who has an understanding of physics that may very well rival a 7 year old.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ Demonic Phoenix: Again, how does Haku saying transport prove he's light speed? A car provides transportation, and I am being transported by riding in it, so I guess I am light speed, aren't I? Again, you've completely ignored the scans I've posted. Goku STATES that his move lets him move INSTANTLY, nowhere is it said to be light speed, lol. The definition of the word "transport", is "To carry or convey from one place to another.", not "Moving at light speed because I'm a Naruto fan-tard.". It would be different if Haku said it teleports him, but he didn't.

What the **** are you talking about? When did I ever claim light speed to bypass time itself? You're the only who made that claim, when you said that Instant transmission was light speed, when I just sent a scan PROVING it was instantaneous. Now since I know you think it's funny and clever to repeat the style of typing I use, I just want to add that you have literally debunked NONE of what I've typed. I have already destroyed your entire argument, yet you continue like you're accomplishing something. You can speculate Haku to be light speed, but you would have to be a dumb ass to do so, as 12 year old Naruto easily out sped him, and 17 year old Naruto, the fastest character in Naruto, can only go lightspeed, and can only accomplish the feat with a jutsu.

I know you're going to do the same thing again, and say instant transmission is light speed, and so is Haku(even though Yellow flash jutsu is also light speed), so get it over with. I'm tired of beating a dead horse, so just stop embarrassing yourself already.

@ SSJGGogeta: Again, how does Kid Goku grabbing sunglasses prove he's light speed? I grab sunglasses everyday, so I guess I am light speed, aren't I? Again, you've completely ignored the scans I've posted. Haku STATES that his move lets him move via the reflection, and it is said to be light speed, lol. The definition of the word "sunglasses", is "protect the eyes from the sun", not "moving faster than light because I'm a DB fan-tard.". It would be different if Kid Goku said he was faster than light, but he didn't.

What the **** are you talking about? When did I ever claim light speed to bypass time itself? You're the only who made that claim, when you said that Kid Goku was light speed, when I just sent a scan PROVING that it was not light speed. Now since I know you think it's funny and clever to repeat the style of typing I use, I just want to add that you have literally debunked NONE of what I've typed. I have already destroyed your entire argument, yet you continue like you're accomplishing something. You can speculate Kid Goku to be light speed, but you would have to be a dumb ass to do so, as Tien easily out sped him, and Vegitto, the fastest character in Naruto, cannot go faster than lightspeed, and can only accomplish the feat with a technique.

I know you're going to do the same thing again, and say Raditz is light speed, and so is Goku (even though Instant Transmission is also light speed), so get it over with. I'm tired of beating a dead horse, so just stop embarrassing yourself already.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by BloodRain
Well played old chap.

hat

I've used his posts for my 'arguments' against him in the whole thread. There's little point in properly conversing with a troglodyte.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's because I just so happen to be educated and smart n'stuff. Unlike you who has an understanding of physics that may very well rival a 7 year old.

My 6 year old cousin grasps logic & physics far better than he does.

Boss16

Gohan wins I wonder why this has so many comments are their actually people supporting Naruto.

Astner

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hint: two-dimensional objects have diameters. lol
A square doesn't have a diameter, a triangle doesn't have a diameter, an ellipse doesn't have a diameter.

Only circles, discs, spheres, hyper-spheres, etc. have diameters.

SSJGGogeta

@ dadudemon: Yeah, but it seems like you've also forgotten that 3 dimensional objects ALSO have diameters. lol. In fact, the only objects that have diameters are circles, disks and spheres... one of those happens to be the rough shape of the Earth, and to a lesser extent(because it's more egg shaped than Earth), the moon, which happens to be what I was stating, when you claimed size and diameter to be two dimensional.

Judging by all this, I have a MUCH better understanding of physics than you do. If I am a seven year old human in terms of intellectual prowess, then you are a squirming plebeian rodent scavenging for crumbs of knowledge, while foolishly taking up a debate against a being who is unfathomably above you in the mentality food chain. So much for your "being educated and smart n'stuff.". Thanks, you've made my day a little better by making me look like a genius in comparison to your third grade flawed understanding of logic, physics, and the universe in general... n'stuff.

@ Demonic Phoenix: Where is it said to be light speed? Again, transportation has nothing to do with light speed. No one except you Naruto fantard idiots has said it to be light speed. Again, you may grab sunglasses every day, but do you do it to LITERALLY DODGE light itself? No. I am transported by my car every day, and since Haku gave no indication of speed, he is no faster than he can be transported, which CANNOT be light speed, because he is VERY SLOW compared to other Naruto characters, who are roflblitzed by Hiraishin, which IS light speed. Purchase the Naruto databook. It says Hiraishin teleports the user at the speed of light, making the movement seem like a yellow flash, as it literally transports the user as a mass of light. Goku said he can move instantaneously with instant transmission, which is also proved in the Daizenshuu volume 7. I sent you the scans. I don't even know why you're still replying, all you're doing is speculating that transportation MUST move at light speed, even though the fastest jutsu in Naruto only moves at light speed, and denying the proof that I gave. Goku dodged light itself, meaning that at least at close range, he is faster than light(as a child). Haku says he can be transported by mirrors, and you assume it to be light speed, when Naruto as a twelve year old could see him moving? You're a retard. That's all there is to it.

You claimed light speed to be instantaneous when you typed, and I quote, "The only thing that describes Goku's technique as light speed is the dub, which is misinterpreted by ignorant fan-tards such as yourself. The DBZ databook doesn't say anywhere in it that Goku was lightspeed, and in fact states that Instant Transmission is the fastest technique in the series by far, as it allows people to move at the speed of light.". You contradicted yourself in two sentences. First, you say Goku's technique is not light speed, and call me an ignorant fan-tard when you're the one going by the dub, then, you say that it's "the fastest technique in the series by far, as it allows people to move at light speed". You don't even know what you're debating. In the cannon manga, Goku states instant transmission is instantaneous. Therefore, it is. If Haku said he could move at light speed, he would be light speed, but he didn't. Stop making shit up.

Goku dodged light as it was racing towards him, as stated in the Daizenshuu and witnessed in the manga. Kid Goku was obviously faster than light. Another example is when fighting the red ribbon army, he dodged a beam of condensed photons. PHOTONS MOVE AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Vegetto is not a character in Naruto, so... wtf. However, Vegetto was fast enough to easily blitz Super Buuhan, who was faster than SSJ3 Goku, who was faster than Buu saga base Goku, who was TRILLIONS of times faster and stronger than Kid Goku, who dodged light. I.e. Vegetto is FAR FASTER THAN LIGHT SPEED BY OVER TRILLIONS OF TIMES AT LEAST.

You are an obvious troll, and everyone here already knows you've painfully lost this sad excuse for a "debate", so just quit while you have a shred of dignity left. I already posted the scan where Goku states instant transmission is instantaneous, so what else can you argue? Haku never said he was light speed, and has no feats claiming so, so you're a retard. Goku dodged light as a child. He's light speed as a child. Get over it.

You have the audacity to call me a caveman, when you're the one claiming transportation to be light speed. You're arguments have been something I would expect from a 7 year old. If your 6 year old cousin has a better understanding of logic and physics then I do, then he laughs at your helpless ignorance, and is the most knowledgable 6 year old on the planet. Honestly, you make "dadudemon", look like Steven Hawking. Please, try to come up with any kind of feasible argument, because their literally CANNOT be one made with any kind of sense here.

@ Boss16: Alas, there are sadly. They claim Haku to be light speed and Naruto to be a stronger than Goku... They also claim instant transmission to be slower than light, when I showed a scan where it was stated to be instantaneous...

Supra

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
@ dadudemon: Yeah, but it seems like you've also forgotten that 3 dimensional objects ALSO have diameters. lol. In fact, the only objects that have diameters are circles, disks and spheres... one of those happens to be the rough shape of the Earth, and to a lesser extent(because it's more egg shaped than Earth), the moon, which happens to be what I was stating, when you claimed size and diameter to be two dimensional.

Judging by all this, I have a MUCH better understanding of physics than you do. If I am a seven year old human in terms of intellectual prowess, then you are a squirming plebeian rodent scavenging for crumbs of knowledge, while foolishly taking up a debate against a being who is unfathomably above you in the mentality food chain. So much for your "being educated and smart n'stuff.". Thanks, you've made my day a little better by making me look like a genius in comparison to your third grade flawed understanding of logic, physics, and the universe in general... n'stuff.

@ Demonic Phoenix: Where is it said to be light speed? Again, transportation has nothing to do with light speed. No one except you Naruto fantard idiots has said it to be light speed. Again, you may grab sunglasses every day, but do you do it to LITERALLY DODGE light itself? No. I am transported by my car every day, and since Haku gave no indication of speed, he is no faster than he can be transported, which CANNOT be light speed, because he is VERY SLOW compared to other Naruto characters, who are roflblitzed by Hiraishin, which IS light speed. Purchase the Naruto databook. It says Hiraishin teleports the user at the speed of light, making the movement seem like a yellow flash, as it literally transports the user as a mass of light. Goku said he can move instantaneously with instant transmission, which is also proved in the Daizenshuu volume 7. I sent you the scans. I don't even know why you're still replying, all you're doing is speculating that transportation MUST move at light speed, even though the fastest jutsu in Naruto only moves at light speed, and denying the proof that I gave. Goku dodged light itself, meaning that at least at close range, he is faster than light(as a child). Haku says he can be transported by mirrors, and you assume it to be light speed, when Naruto as a twelve year old could see him moving? You're a retard. That's all there is to it.

You claimed light speed to be instantaneous when you typed, and I quote, "The only thing that describes Goku's technique as light speed is the dub, which is misinterpreted by ignorant fan-tards such as yourself. The DBZ databook doesn't say anywhere in it that Goku was lightspeed, and in fact states that Instant Transmission is the fastest technique in the series by far, as it allows people to move at the speed of light.". You contradicted yourself in two sentences. First, you say Goku's technique is not light speed, and call me an ignorant fan-tard when you're the one going by the dub, then, you say that it's "the fastest technique in the series by far, as it allows people to move at light speed". You don't even know what you're debating. In the cannon manga, Goku states instant transmission is instantaneous. Therefore, it is. If Haku said he could move at light speed, he would be light speed, but he didn't. Stop making shit up.

Goku dodged light as it was racing towards him, as stated in the Daizenshuu and witnessed in the manga. Kid Goku was obviously faster than light. Another example is when fighting the red ribbon army, he dodged a beam of condensed photons. PHOTONS MOVE AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Vegetto is not a character in Naruto, so... wtf. However, Vegetto was fast enough to easily blitz Super Buuhan, who was faster than SSJ3 Goku, who was faster than Buu saga base Goku, who was TRILLIONS of times faster and stronger than Kid Goku, who dodged light. I.e. Vegetto is FAR FASTER THAN LIGHT SPEED BY OVER TRILLIONS OF TIMES AT LEAST.

You are an obvious troll, and everyone here already knows you've painfully lost this sad excuse for a "debate", so just quit while you have a shred of dignity left. I already posted the scan where Goku states instant transmission is instantaneous, so what else can you argue? Haku never said he was light speed, and has no feats claiming so, so you're a retard. Goku dodged light as a child. He's light speed as a child. Get over it.

You have the audacity to call me a caveman, when you're the one claiming transportation to be light speed. You're arguments have been something I would expect from a 7 year old. If your 6 year old cousin has a better understanding of logic and physics then I do, then he laughs at your helpless ignorance, and is the most knowledgable 6 year old on the planet. Honestly, you make "dadudemon", look like Steven Hawking. Please, try to come up with any kind of feasible argument, because their literally CANNOT be one made with any kind of sense here.

@ Boss16: Alas, there are sadly. They claim Haku to be light speed and Naruto to be a stronger than Goku... They also claim instant transmission to be slower than light, when I showed a scan where it was stated to be instantaneous...

I have finally found my soul mate