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Because of Neph and Intrepid's argument, I'm doing this.

Battle takes place on a barren wasteland.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. Hand-to-Hand

4. Blasters

5. All-Out

Kun pwns. Kun is a good fight for Sidious, let alone Vader, who he'd comfortably defeat.

Vader is better in every category.

Vader wins every category except maybe hand-to-hand.

Kun channels Barriss Offee and stomps. Praise be Her name.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kun pwns. Kun is a good fight for Sidious, let alone Vader, who he'd comfortably defeat.

This.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Vader is better in every category.

Facts?

I would think Vader takes this in near every category, strength, speed, knowledge, force power, etc.

Can somebody prove how Vader could beat Kun? Please?

On force knowledge, Exar Kun did have only a month or two learning under Freedon Nadd. He had a lot of raw omph, he was a prodigy, and his amulets allowed him to use the force in some specific ways, but his breadth of dark side knowledge should probably be the least of any major sith lord.

Originally posted by Q99
On force knowledge, Exar Kun did have only a month or two learning under Freedon Nadd. He had a lot of raw omph, he was a prodigy, and his amulets allowed him to use the force in some specific ways, but his breadth of dark side knowledge should probably be the least of any major sith lord.

Yet he overpowered Vodo.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yet he overpowered Vodo.

Sure- he was Vodo's best Jedi student and had the amulets on top. I'm not saying he wasn't uber, especially as a duelist, but he had a lot more Jedi training than Sith.


Also of the masters at the time, I think Thon is higher than Vodo. He was better remembered later on (not sure how Arca compares).

Actually, Exar Kun was a Sith Lord about six months on his own. Not much, but his raw power speaks for itself. Also, in that time Exar Kun made super massassi, sith critters of all shape and size, and designed the hundreds of temples his slaves erected in his honor.

The one thing he wasn't doing that time was being assisted by a breathing machine or being inferior to his former self. He stomps.

Vader's not "better in every way" but definitely has the feats and accolades to make this a challenge.

He did do something ridiculous with a bridge but I forgot. Only Faunus is a true Vader supporter and he is absent.

He dismantled a Kashyyyk bridge in RODV but that's really not what I was thinking of.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He did do something ridiculous with a bridge but I forgot. Only Faunus is a true Vader supporter and he is absent. He was still here about the time I joined, right?

I was looking up Kun's feat's from his respect thread created by Silver, and I also stumbled across this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/darth-vader-vs-exar-kun-718125/. If this analysis is accurate, then Vader is the one who might stomp, especially if we include his TFU feats, such as tanking blasts from SK's amped lightning to an opening in his armor among other things, along with his newer Dark Times feats, such as force crushing a tie fighter while the ship was in mid-flight. I trust Silver's argument, considering that I think Kun is among his favorite characters (he made a respect thread for Kun, and he usually makes those for characters he likes, so it seems), and was once of the opinion that Kun could potentially defeat Yoda (IIRC), so I don't think his assessment is a case of Bias for Vader.


Also, this http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416334

The jedi are featless, but it's still impressive considering Palpatine gives them prep by handing them their sabers, allowing them to ignite them in order to attack, while he turns his back to them, and he still manages to drop three of them with one swipe of his own saber before they were able to react despite giving them prep.

Uh, what's the point of the Palpatine feat?

Just 'cause.

Nah, the Jedi Palpatine drops are not only featless, but they were beaten and starved by Imperial stormtroopers before being escorted to the Emperor.

Sahdett fellates Sidious good and proper, saying he's never seen such power and speed and how the Emperor is "an ocean of crushing hate" or whatever... but the feat isn't really impressive at all from a combat perspective.

Oh, really? I haven't read the comic. I was just bored and browsing through some of Silver's images. And I could barely make out the words.

But depending on Sahdett's experience with other force users, it may still be an impressive feat with respect to speed alone.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was looking up Kun's feat's from his respect thread created by Silver, and I also stumbled across this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/darth-vader-vs-exar-kun-718125/. If this analysis is accurate, then Vader is the one who might stomp, especially if we include his TFU feats, such as tanking blasts from SK's amped lightning to an opening in his armor among other things, along with his newer Dark Times feats, such as force crushing a tie fighter while the ship was in mid-flight. I trust Silver's argument, considering that I think Kun is among his favorite characters (he made a respect thread for Kun, and he usually makes those for characters he likes, so it seems), and was once of the opinion that Kun could potentially defeat Yoda (IIRC), so I don't think his assessment is a case of Bias for Vader.


Also, this http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416334

The jedi are featless, but it's still impressive considering Palpatine gives them prep by handing them their sabers, allowing them to ignite them in order to attack, while he turns his back to them, and he still manages to drop three of them with one swipe of his own saber before they were able to react despite giving them prep.

Exar is at a severe disadvantage against an opponent with the particular strengths Vader possesses. Vader is immune to Force Drain, as per his learning a defense against that effect from the spirit/recording of Ulic Qel-Droma so that he could destroy the Dark Reaper during the Clone Wars. Exar's supreme feat with Drain was killing thousands of Massassi with it, but he accomplished this within the parameters of his dark side-cultivated temples which were designed to focus his powers. This is only roughly equal to the Dark Reaper, which could siphon the energies of entire armies, and Anakin was unaffected by that. Vader's stated and tested invulnerability against Drain renders that power moot.

Calling this Kun's "supreme Force feat" seems to imply nothing else matters, even though this is a ritual. However, Ulic's knowledge of blocking Force Drain is probably originating from Kun or the same sources Kun utilized; this makes me wonder if Kun could block Force drain from anyone else, if I applied the concept too liberally.

Kun >>> Nihilus, GG. Kun >>> Vitiate, QED.

Exar's Force Blast was damaging enough to kill Massassi, kill a wyrm, and ruin portions of the Massassi Temple walls. However, he did this following what appeared to be a "charging," so to speak, of his gauntlets within pillars of energy.

Actually, no 'charging' is implied or shown. This seems to be a heavy-handed assumption here. Kun was actively dodging the Sith Wyrm's attacks while loosing blasts.

Later on, when he traveled to the Empress Teta system to confront Ulic and Aleema Keto, Exar's Blast failed to kill Aleema; it only jolted her into unconsciousness despite his professed intention to kill her and Ulic. So it stands to question whether his Force Blast is as powerful as was previously portrayed, especially on account of the aforementioned enhancing that the gauntlets seemed to receive.

Kun didn't appear to be interested in killing Aleema although I admit that the narration says this explicitly. What he actually does though is simply shoot her across the room with a gesture before taunting Ulic and threatening him:



http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/capturetsl2_zpsd1314dbd.jpg

We already know Sith amulets are deadly:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/capturetsl1_zpscffb2e30.jpg

He didn't "crack Sylvar's skull with his TK" either when she attacked him, merely brushing her off like the miserable fly that she was. Kun knows that neither is a threat to him, and he focused on the only threat he felt appropriate; Ulic in the former case, and Vodo in the latter. Even Aleema knew with all her Sith spell prep, was no match against Kun.

It's not unreasonable to assume that Kun can use low-powered blasts for minor concussive ability. The idea that he can only use them for progressively larger blasts seems to imply he has no control over it, and while this seemed to be the case in the initial acquirement of the amulet, later on we don't see it to be true. His control over his Force powers seems to have matured, and he's had six months or so to master them. And considering they exponentially increase his rage and Force connection, I don't see why he needs to resort to the amulet blasts. We just argue them because they are more visible than his TK.

Let's also review what he was dodging while firing those blasts:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/capturetdl1_zps2b1a1b92.jpg


Kressh, Sadow, and Kun are all shown using the amulet for boost/Force augmentation very casually, and the amulet Kun unleashes has zero on-panel charge time, prep time, nor did it exhaust him even slightly. It's wrong to assume they're identical to the earlier ones.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Capturetdl2_zps574ed32f.jpg

First use of amulet blasts. No prep. He's obviously moving around with the Sith wyrm.

@ Neph, after reviewing the comics, it does not appear at all that he raised Sadow's ship from the surface of the planet via TK. Unless this is quoted somewhere else, it simply didn't happen.

Exar's own TK is rather useless as well. His best showing was easily hurling back Sylvar, which is decent but hardly incredible. Vader has thrown around ships, crumbled cathedrals, crushed massive droids, knocked over titanic trees, used Lightsaber Throw to spin his blade around his body, pushed people across alleyways, torn down structures, ripped apart platforms, redirected projectiles, etc. Kun is immensely outclassed in telekinetic proficiency. TP would never become a factor in this.

This does not seem well considered. First, if TK is not a factor in this fight, why bring it up? Second, Kun's Force powers are exponentially better than before he became a Sith. You know, when he was the greatest student Vodo had ever trained in 600 years? Unless there's a coherent argument for why someone could explicitly channel the Dark Side a bajillion times into his amulet and sneeze out wall-destroying blasts but not TK more than an un-aided Vader, this just sounds wrong.

Also, throwing people across alleys is not a feat of TK, last I checked. Yoda only TK'd Sidious across an office and over a chair. This is a low showing of practical TK use; in other situations, Yoda's TK is perhaps the best TK shown by any Jedi but maybe Satele Shan, including protecting against the vacuum of space and redirecting orbital missile strikes. Mace Windu, who didn't use TK at all against Sidious, can use it to grip an entire landslide. We wouldn't argue that these people would be TK'd to death by Vader because he can "crush stuff" or "chuck people across alleyways".

Exar's speed is the generic afterimage-related feats. Vader has achieved that and more. Kun has no other especially notable physical feats, aside from possibly smashing a holocron in his hand (though this was part of a ceremony; so it may not have been purely a physical showing). Vader, on the other hand, has slammed people onto the ground so hard the stone cracked beneath them, remained unmoved by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, torn steel doors off ships, broken nets, collapsed crystalline pillars, broken binders, etc. Vader is obviously more physically dominating.

LOLWUT.

First, writing off comic book characters as being slower than someone because that someone has "afterimages and more" is pretty ignorant.

Second, Kun smashing a holocron with his bear hand is ridiculous, as is the fact that he smashed Vodo's "stronger than a lightsaber" stick before he ever acquired an amulet:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Capture12313_zps6a5fa7de.jpg

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/1212312312312_zpsd1d01fae.jpg

I'm at my character limit, or near-to, but this guy's Vader bias is wicked strong.

I'd assume he is referring to how the pillars of force energy begin disappearing once Kun begins using the gauntlets; we actually see that in the one scan with the Wyrm. He then posits that the force energy from the pillars is amping his blasts. Now, I am not saying I agree with him there, but I felt a clarification was in order.

Originally posted by ares834
I'd assume he is referring to how the pillars of force energy begin disappearing once Kun begins using the gauntlets we actually see that in the one scan with the Wyrm. He then posits that the force energy from the pillars is mapping his blasts. Now, I am not saying I agree with him there, but I felt a clarification was in order.

I see now. He assumes it was "charged" in the pillars made by the massassi:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Captureawawdawd_zps3dc27e8d.jpg

These are dark side energies conjured by the collective chanting of the Force-sensitive Massassi. Kun actually penetrates one such pillar of energy and calls the amulet to him, which the narration describes as going to its "rightful owner". It actually seems like the head priest was using it to channel the collective power of the Massassi to summon the wyrm, control it, buff it, whatever but as soon as they lose the artifact, the beams vanish.

The amulet, meanwhile, explicitly focuses the dark rage already present in his heart. There's nothing to indicate the energy is borrowed or amplified to any measurable degree and this is evident in one of the above scans.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Capturewdadawdawd_zpsa43e88ae.jpg

I want to see Vader tank that.

Pretty sure Nihilus' form of Force Draining is different than the standard.

Quite possibly, but I was applying a liberal sense of the definition Silver had put forth.

Vader, as good as he is, has had his share of defeats too.

Exar Kun was never defeated in a duel once.

Exar Kun wins this one.

I'm the one who said it seems as if Vader stomps, I don't think that's what Silver was implying. And I admit, I said that out of ignorance on my part and from how I read the argument, and the fact that Silver didn't include many of Vader's other feats. I only skimmed Kun's respect thread, and most of the images there were not working. Soo... Correction: maybe Vader doesn't stomp, but Kun isn't stomping Vader either.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Calling this Kun's "supreme Force feat" seems to imply nothing else matters, even though this is a ritual.


He said supreme force feat with drain. Besides, even if it were Kun's supreme force feat, that wouldn't necessarily mean nothing else matters.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, no 'charging' is implied or shown. This seems to be a heavy-handed assumption here. Kun was actively dodging the Sith Wyrm's attacks while loosing blasts.


Well aren't the massassi temples force nexuses? If so, we shouldn't assume that his blasts would be as potent out side of them. Unless I can assume that a dying Palpatine can shrug off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery, seemingly disintegrating it when it made contact with his body. At least in Palpatine's case Byss became a nexus as a result of his own power, but I still don't assume that a dying Palpatine is almost indestructible off a nexus.





Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's not unreasonable to assume that Kun can use low-powered blasts for minor concussive ability. The idea that he can only use them for progressively larger blasts seems to imply he has no control over it, and while this seemed to be the case in the initial acquirement of the amulet, later on we don't see it to be true. His control over his Force powers seems to have matured, and he's had six months or so to master them. And considering they exponentially increase his rage and Force connection, I don't see why he needs to resort to the amulet blasts. We just argue them because they are more visible than his TK.



Well other than his blasts, what has he done to suggest his raw power is as destructible as Vader's?




Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This does not seem well considered. First, if TK is not a factor in this fight, why bring it up?


If you read the whole thread (mainly the back and forth between Silver and ShootingNova), Silver is suggesting that Kun may be more powerful than Vader in the force overall, but that Vader has an answer to all of Kun's combat feats including TK (Kun likely wouldn't do much damage to Vader in that area), and that Vader edges out in most areas where it matters, such as TK.

As far as saber feats, I do agree that Vader is underrated and that he is extremely skilled. He has to be in order to create his own style, adopting elements from multiple forms. But where I do disagree with Silver about this, is that fighting equally with Luke being one of Vader's better feats. I know the ROTJ novel suggest this, but I'm sorry, every other source, including the movie, strongly suggests that Vader was never really willing to kill Luke at this point. In fact, The Ultimate Visual Guide says Vader abandoned his plans to overthrow the Emperor, but wanted to turn Luke over to the dark side in order to save him from Palpatine rather than ruling the galaxy as father and son. Then The New Essential Guide to Characters said Palpatine urged Luke to kill a "dying" Vader; to me, that implied Vader was weaker and the dark side in him was fading out due to his love for his son, which is why just moments later, he turns against the master he was enslaved to for years, and sacrifices his own life to save his son. As of ROTJ, there is so much to suggest that Vader never really wanted to harm his son, and he was truly conflicted. So how can one fight his best when he is emotionally conflicted and unwilling to kill the person he is fighting because he has love for that person? He can't. Vader didn't barely start loving his son after Palpatine started torturing him. But it's still impressive on Luke's part that he was able to break through Vader's defenses, but that, IMO, is not one of Vader's best showings.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second, Kun's Force powers are exponentially better than before he became a Sith. You know, when he was the greatest student Vodo had ever trained in 600 years? Unless there's a coherent argument for why someone could explicitly channel the Dark Side a bajillion times into his amulet and sneeze out wall-destroying blasts but not TK more than an un-aided Vader, this just sounds wrong.


Because Vader is the superior TK user as far as feats go. You can assume that, but that's like saying someone with superior lightning can TK someone like Vader. According to the Ultimate Visual Guide that's basically what lightning is: channeled dark side energy released in the form of lightning. I wouldn't assume Nyriss can TK a TK beast like Vader just because her lightning is potent. They are two different powers, and I don't see why we should treat blasts any different just because the energies are absorbed through an amulet.

Savage's rage and power was enhanced through Talzin's magic, which allowed him to tap into his potential at a quicker rate. His enhancement was such that even his physical body bulked upon receiving his amp. He was capable of force pushing a star ship over a cliff with hardly any training. And in a fit of rage, he force choked and levitated Dooku and Ventress at the same time, and then went on to ragdoll and down Anakin, Kenobi, and several battle droids at once via a force wave. After months of training with Maul, he was said to have become even more powerful according to the official website, yet Sidious was able to easily dominate both Savage and Maul with the force at the same time, holding them pinned to a wall despite both their efforts to break free (it should be noted that Maul has comparable force feats to Savage, such as force pulling a star ship off a cliff, etc). Savage and Maul combined were mere roaches to an un-aided Sidious in a force contest.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, throwing people across alleys is not a feat of TK, last I checked.


If it's done with the force, it is. I believe he is talking about one of the thugs Vader threw across an alley and into a building, causing structural damage in one of the Empire issues.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda only TK'd Sidious across an office and over a chair. This is a low showing of practical TK use


Not really. Sidious casually ragdolled and held both Maul and Savage against a wall despite their efforts to break free. Throwing someone like Sidious across an office, is an extremely good feat.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
in other situations, Yoda's TK is perhaps the best TK shown by any Jedi but maybe Satele Shan, including protecting against the vacuum of space and redirecting orbital missile strikes.

Mace Windu, who didn't use TK at all against Sidious, can use it to grip an entire landslide. We wouldn't argue that these people would be TK'd to death by Vader because he can "crush stuff" or "chuck people across alleyways".


Well, no, but that's because they are prodigious TK users themselves, and they have feats to show for it. Besides, I don't think Vader can just crush Kun to death, but his destructive power in TK is such that he can put it to good use against Kun. Hell, Vader is capable of duking it out with Starkiller in TK, and has over powered Jedi such as Kota as well as other jedi with it.

Very good, S66.

Thanks Intrepid.

Also, Regarding Vader vs Luke in ROTJ, Luke was obviously conflicted throughout most of the duel as well, so I guess It's reasonable to conclude that they were both holding back. But I was referring more to the part when Luke cut loose and allowed his rage to momentarily take over.

Multiple sources conclude that they were equal in raw skill.

Also, on a side note, since no source have confirmed that ESB Vader is more skilled than Luke (sources confirm it was Luke's lack of experience that was his undoing; not his lack of skill), Vader's skill grew not only between ANH and ESB, but also between ESB and RotJ.

Well, IMO, no source should have to point out that Vader was more skilled than Luke as of ESB, that should be obvious. Vader's superior skill would come from his experience and the fact that he had trained longer as a jedi before becoming a sith, which explains his mastery of multiple forms and being able to create his own style from them. Luke at this point barely had any training. Furthermore, Vader was never aiming to Kill Luke even then, but was trying to capture and convert him. While Luke was still very good at this point, Vader should've been able to waste Luke had he been really willing to kill him, IMO.

I went through the ESB fight and Vader owns him repeatedly. Multiple times Luke is at his mercy and Vader chooses not to end the fight.

Just agree with me and it will be all good, bros.

I find the fact that Luke becomes more powerful than Vader in such a short amount of time extremely ridiculous.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Just agree with me and it will be all good, bros.

Anyone who can look at that fight and say that Vader's only advantage was experience is a ****ing moron. There, I said it.

Go suck cock.

Are you offering?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Just agree with me and it will be all good, bros.

lol.

Also, I don't have much time before work (I can try to amend more during or after) but here's some things I was looking at trying to recall more of spirit Kun, who is explicitly weaker than his flesh-and-blood self:

Kun flicked a finger at me, sending me whirling across the courtyard. I tried to gather the Force around me to protect myself, but the shock at my error kept me from it. I slammed into an obsidian wall and heard a bone in my right forearm crack. I clutched the limb to my chest, but Kun spun me again, smashing my flank into a low wall. Ribs crunched with that impact and I felt something inside go, as well. Kun was enjoying himself, probably for the first time in millennia, the very thought of which made me vomit. Kun's laughter echoed through his stronghold as he pitched me around, dancing me and rolling me back and forth across the courtyard. I thought his actions were haphazard, especially when he lifted me into the air, then dashed me down, shattering my left leg, but even through the pain I had a clarity of mind. He wanted me thinking, not dead, yet, and that made my stomach roll again.
Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go. I slumped to my side and involuntarily flinched as his shade came to cover me. "Just because you never saw me affect the material world, it doesn't mean I couldn't. And even if it is something of an effort to do so, here, in my stronghold, it is a pleasure beyond your possible ken."

Kun's weakened spirit ragdolls him and breaks bones, something we don't have a comparison for with Vader IIRC, nor even the likes of Dooku. Sidious and Yoda are the only ones in the movie era demonstrating this kind of TK dominance, and they are in their prime comparatively.

To quote Advent:



Remember, DE-noob Luke TK'd an AT-AT walker like it was nothing. The opponent she was referring to in the given thread was Count Dooku, as Gideon has noted, one of the best Jedi in what was it? Ten thousand years? The evidence lends the interpretation that Kun would overpower Dooku in the Force alone, and Dooku's Force mastery is comparable to Vader's from what we've seen. If a Force contest ever became a point of contention, I don't have any serious doubts that Kun, who has explicitly demonstrated the ability to increase his power exponentially would come out on top.

Regarding how much Kun is "buffed" per se, Advent addresses an argument that the Golden Globe is buffing him. It's slightly related, but I am posting it again so her reasoning is clear:



And regarding other Force applications:



And lastly, let's examine that on-panel amulet augmentation again:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/amuletrage_zpse099edcb.jpg

"Exar Kun suddenly feels his rage multiply a thousand times, then a hundred thousand times..."

And then you see the blasts doubling in energy with each subsequent attack.

Kun gets progressively, exponentially stronger with the amulet. Whether it channels his rage to TK, use concussive blasts, or sparks suspiciously when the chancellor is being forced to speak.

In GAotS, the same amulets spark whenever Sadow uses the Force, implying that it aids his natural Force powers entirely. Concerning TK specifically, when he tears bricks out of the temple wall in his duel with Kressh, the amulet sparks. When Kressh crushes a ten or so foot tall statue with TK, his amulet sparks.

The underlying implication is this:

P1. The amulets augment rage which augments Dark Side users' connection to the Force. The correlation between rage and bursts of intense Force use is evident in SW lore already.

P2. Exar Kun is already prodigiously strong in the Force, well ahead of his classmates and threatening his centuries old instructor.

P3. Vader is not augmented at all, through amulets or anything replicating their use. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that even if he is at the peak of the un-augmented Force using scale, he is naturally limited.

Conclusion: Exar Kun, even if he were naturally weaker than Vader (Debatable. He very well may be but he doesn't have any literature to suggest his relative level in terms of potential or midi-chlorians), he can amplify his connection to the Force to exceed Vader's and in that category dominates.

I'd like to point out that this sub-forum is fond of using Anakin's connection to the Force, and his rage as valid reasons for some of his higher showings. Therefore, it seems difficult to imagine that someone with a theoretically higher cap could be defeated consistently, except with PIS. And since Kun is already an established dueling master, coupled with great physical strength and ridiculous Force Rage buff capability, I don't see Vader taking the saber fight either.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you offering?
Would you do so if that was the case?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
lol.

Also, I don't have much time before work (I can try to amend more during or after) but here's some things I was looking at trying to recall more of spirit Kun, who is explicitly weaker than his flesh-and-blood self:

Kun flicked a finger at me, sending me whirling across the courtyard. I tried to gather the Force around me to protect myself, but the shock at my error kept me from it. I slammed into an obsidian wall and heard a bone in my right forearm crack. I clutched the limb to my chest, but Kun spun me again, smashing my flank into a low wall. Ribs crunched with that impact and I felt something inside go, as well. Kun was enjoying himself, probably for the first time in millennia, the very thought of which made me vomit. Kun's laughter echoed through his stronghold as he pitched me around, dancing me and rolling me back and forth across the courtyard. I thought his actions were haphazard, especially when he lifted me into the air, then dashed me down, shattering my left leg, but even through the pain I had a clarity of mind. He wanted me thinking, not dead, yet, and that made my stomach roll again.
Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go. I slumped to my side and involuntarily flinched as his shade came to cover me. "Just because you never saw me affect the material world, it doesn't mean I couldn't. And even if it is something of an effort to do so, here, in my stronghold, it is a pleasure beyond your possible ken."

Kun's weakened spirit ragdolls him and breaks bones, something we don't have a comparison for with Vader IIRC, nor even the likes of Dooku. Sidious and Yoda are the only ones in the movie era demonstrating this kind of TK dominance, and they are in their prime comparatively.


Is that Luke?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Would you do so if that was the case?

I just think theres some tension between us, I don't know what it is, but I think I'm open to exploring the possibilities.

Also we should ****.

Corran Horn, I believe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I just think theres some tension between us, I don't know what it is, but I think I'm open to exploring the possibilities.

Also we should ****.
Don't drag that tension into bed bro, or it won't be pretty.

I will make you my cocksock. Prepare to get the railing of your life.

I have implants. You better be careful.

@SM

When Kun ragdolls Corran Horn (or whoever), was he drawing on the power of any of Luke's students such as Kyp at the time? Because one of the quotes you provided seemed to imply that Kun is able to draw on the dark side powers of his temples if he has access to other force sensitive's powers. If so, I don't see why his ability with TK wouldn't be as sufficient on account of not being able to utilize many of the abilities he had when he had a physical body. For instance, Vader isn't able to utilize powers such as lightning on account of having no physical limbs, yet his powers with TK weren't affected. In fact, Vader's destructive powers with TK increase in time after he loses his limbs as cyborg Vader. So I need more feedback on this feat before I can make an argument. Also, if that wasn't Luke who Kun was ragdolling, then that's not a TK feat beyond Vader's, unless Corran is exceptionally powerful himself. Vader has killed Galen's father by casually breaking his neck via TK, and then at one point he ragdolls Galen right before he captures Bail Organa and the other rebels. As far as Dooku, I'm pretty sure he could have treated Kenobi in the same fashion that Kun treated Corran had Anakin not have been there to distract him. And it should also be noted that according to Jedi Academy Training Manual a light siders force abilities do diminish while on a dark side nexus, so Kun was likely ragdolling a weakened Corran Horn.

Regarding your argument about Kun's powers and rage being amped, I see what you're saying. But having his powers amped doesn't automatically mean he becomes more powerful than someone who isn't amped by something. Which is why I used Savage as an example. Savage's power and rage was amped tremendously to the point that even his physical body showed it, yet he, with the help of Maul, was defenseless against Sidious who was amped by nothing. And no, I'm not suggesting Savage is on par with Kun. Kun would most definitely hand Savage his ass by virtue of being far more skilled and having more range of abilities. But as far as raw power alone, Savage's force feats shouldn't be ignored. With hardly any training he force pushes a star ship over a cliff; in a fit of rage, he force chokes and levitates Dooku and Ventress at the same time; he ragdolls Skywalker and Kenobi along with a bunch of battle droids. And all this happened before he received more extensive training from Maul. He's also easily busted free from a jail cell with a force wave. No, Savage doesn't have access to many of Kun's feats, but his rage and power was amped nonetheless.

While I do agree that all of Kun's abilities would obviously increase upon being amped, but his most destructive feats still come from his blasts, while Vader's come from his TK abilities, and Vader is more consistent in using TK in combat than Kun is in using his blasts (didn't you suggest that Kun rarely uses blasts in combat?). Vader easily killed Mareks father, and was able to crush another jedi's heart. Here are some of Vader's raw power and mastery in TK:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334419
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334420

^ Here he force crushes a jedi's heart.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3094868

^Here he force crushes a tie fighter.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191489
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191490

^Here he uses the force to levitate and rip apart a giant droid.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416107

^Here Vader force throws a huge Vehicle. Notice how small the people are to the vehicle who are hanging from it.


http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334391
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334392

^Here Vader force throws a large stone that dwarfs him in size.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139131
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139132


^Here Vader uses the force to collapse an entire cathedral on himself and others, and he survives it, so his durability shouldn't be in question.

These scans of Vader's TK feats do not even include his feats from TFU, and most of them were done very casually. His displayed raw power in TK exceed that of Kun's display with his energy blasts.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@SM

When Kun ragdolls Corran Horn (or whoever), was he drawing on the power of any of Luke's students such as Kyp at the time? Because one of the quotes you provided seemed to imply that Kun is able to draw on the dark side powers of his temples if he has access to other force sensitive's powers.

Double check the post. Advent, who has read all the books related, noted that the buff if any Exar Kun gets from Yavin IV and his temples is negligible yet he is able to be a serious threat to everyone up to and including post-DE Luke Skywalker. This makes spirit Kun rather powerful, and this is already explicitly weaker than living Kun. The spirit also doesn't enjoy the amulet boosting power.



See above. It's already proven that being a spirit prohibits using some abilities without possessing a living being, and even then it is not the same as being alive. Advent argued this well enough six years ago.



Corran Horn comes from the Halcyon bloodline, which has a special ability to not utilize TK directly, but they can tank energy from Force attacks and redirect it, along with other energy types such as lightsabers and blaster bolts. I admit that I am uncertain if this extends to kinetic energy from TK, so this feat may in retrospect not be sufficient.



These appear to be valid points.



Except the method of augmentation is different. The ancient Sith had mastery over the Dark Side to the extent that they could make artifacts which drained entire planets of the Force, destroyed temples, chuck the cores of stars, and create illusions to attack multiple planets across the galaxy at the same time.

There's also the issue of how many times Kun's rage is being augmented. Not ten times, not twenty times, not a hundred times... A hundred thousand times. Even if he were as weak as say Kit Fisto or Obi-Wan compared to Anakin in base Force power, he is being augmented exponentially more times.

Would you say that Anakin >>>> a hundred thousand Kit Fistos? Or Obi-Wans? Hell, if you want to low-ball here, let's make it a hundred thousand younglings. At what point is Anakin's natural potential greater than a hundred thousand anything?



I saw this clip; he actually TK'd the leg and it tipped. He did not shove it himself.



Good points, but as I mentioned above the augmentation style is different. And nowhere is Savage augmented as much as Kun. I wouldn't harp on this point if it wasn't narration.



Actually, reread what Advent posted which I quoted above: Kun's array of Force powers exceeds what we see on-panel and includes Force Lightning of some dark esoteric type which he taught Kyp. Additionally, he killed Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand, not a mere Force push. So if Kun can choke a centuries old Jedi Master with a gesture, I don't see why he couldn't snap someone's neck, or cripple them in a crushing maneuver. Especially in a burst of augmented rage.



Very impressive. What are this Jedi's feats? What's up with the glowing cuffs?



Okay wow. That's disgusting. I give you that. Vader has good showings in TK. Makes me wonder if he could take on Mace.

The other scans are good too, and I agree that Vader's TK is a lot better than I had been led to believe, or was evident back in 2007 obviously due to newer material. One thing I want to point out is that in the fallen cathedral scan he appears to be unhit by anything, as is the couple beside him, so this couldn't be an argument for durability.

My biggest issue for contention here is this:

Explicit rage augmentation implies a higher level of Force strength than Vader could defend against. Why do I say this? Post-DE Luke, who himself demonstrated TK feats on par with his father as you've demonstrated, could do nothing against his weakened spirit.

As Advent has noted above, the amount in which he is "buffed" by temples or a Dark Side nexus is negligible; he must leech to even maintain form, and he is explicitly weaker than his flesh and blood form and is entirely lacking the amulet to boost him further.

If you take a base number and say, Anakin is 30,000, and Exar Kun is 100 (just to low-ball it), Kun's Force burst can exceed 10 million in comparison. That's if Kun's Force power is the merest of fractions compared to Anakin's!

I'm not at my laptop anymore, so I can't address point by point. But are you suggesting that Kun equals 100,000 force users? I don't see anything to suggest that. His rage was said to be 100,000 time more potent which would obviously increase his power by a large amount, but the statement seems to be a bit hyperbolic and just a fancy way of saying "his rage was far greater than it had been before he had his amulet."

Also, I see what you're saying in that the spirit of Kun wouldn't be as powerful since he didn't have his amulet or access to many of his abilities. But regardless of how weak Kun is in spirit form, if Luke doesn't have a defense against the sorcery Kun used on him, it wouldn't matter how powerful Luke is. It's like superman doesn't have a defense against Kyptonite, but that wouldn't mean the person using Krytonite against him is far more powerful.

Also, do you still think Kun stomps?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not at my laptop anymore, so I can't address point by point. But are you suggesting that Kun equals 100,000 force users? I don't see anything to suggest that. His rage was said to be 100,000 time more potent which would obviously increase his power by a large amount, but the statement seems to be a bit hyperbolic and just a fancy way of saying "his rage was far greater than it had been before he had his amulet."

No, that is indeed a bit hyperbolic. But his rage is multiplied on a scale well beyond reasonable. Even if you said "well, clearly this number does not scale linearly", the fact remains that he is buffed onto a whole 'nother plane. Using the amulet, Force users can probably 'burst' very high, and my suspicion is that Kun already has incredible Force talent compared to his era, like Ulic does or like Revan and Meetra did, and therefore the amulet just sets him above everyone else already naturally at his level.



The question is then could Vader defend himself against whatever esoteric powers Kun possesses? Could he fortify himself against those blasts, powerful burst Force usage, and uber darkness soul searing lightning.



I have a newfound respect for Vader's Force power, so I'm not thinking it's an epic stomp. However, it's very hard to quantify Kun as a normal Force user and this leads me to believe he is to Anakin what say, Yoda is to Obi-Wan or Mace. He's never shown with an equal in the Force, and his only equal in saber usage was himself a master swordsman.

The cathedral feat from Vader, there is another scan where Palpatine has him recovering, and states that Vader was buried beneath it.

And as for the jedi whose heart was crushed by Vader, Temp might know more of his feats. I haven't been really following Dark Times issue, but I think he has.

Kun was considerably more powerful than Savage was before either amp.

SM, Vader hasn't shown to have a defense against some of the abilities you listed that I'm aware of, which is probably the best way for Kun to defeat him; but as far as the blasts, well Vader can tank an awful amount of punishment and still get back up, so I don't think Kun would drop Vader with one blast, though they would come in handy. Just like I don't think Vader, for all his destructive TK power, would drop Kun in one attack, but I do think it would come in handy in a fight.

@Neph, what do you mean? Kun was more powerful before receiving his amp than Savage was before receiving his?

Yes.

Base Kun was still one of the strongest Jedi alive who beat Vodo, who called him the most formidable student he'd ever seen. Then he got his amulet.

Base Savage was just some random dude. Then Talzin amped him with sorcery.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

Base Kun was still one of the strongest Jedi alive who beat Vodo, who called him the most formidable student he'd ever seen. Then he got his amulet.

Base Savage was just some random dude. Then Talzin amped him with sorcery. Didn't Vodo beat him at one point?

Right before Kun got mad and beat him in turn. Kun's rage seems to help even in padawan form, as he rage pwned Sylvar pretty easily.

Sids, fair enough. We have food for thought and maybe someone else can elaborate where we left off.

When Exar Kun died, was he at his peak?

Yes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
SM, Vader hasn't shown to have a defense against some of the abilities you listed that I'm aware of, which is probably the best way for Kun to defeat him; but as far as the blasts, well Vader can tank an awful amount of punishment and still get back up, so I don't think Kun would drop Vader with one blast, though they would come in handy. Just like I don't think Vader, for all his destructive TK power, would drop Kun in one attack, but I do think it would come in handy in a fight.

I would agree with this assessment, except that the thing is that Kun's blasts double in power each time. Even if its only annoying to Vader at first (likely, considering how tough he is), after a few times Vader would be simply overwhelmed imo.

I am pleased with this civility.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Because of Neph and Intrepid's argument, I'm doing this.

Battle takes place on a barren wasteland.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. Hand-to-Hand

4. Blasters

5. All-Out Kun wins all of those. I don't see the point a blasters battle.

If this were Zonakin, he might win. Actually, he probably would win.

In a mere Force battle; consider this: the Grand Mother of Allana Solo, Tenenial, used Aryan Magick spells that proved to be more powerful and precise applications of TK than Vader's according to Luke's testimony and his inability to overcome her powers just after the events of ROTJ in "The Courtship of Princess Leia".

Now Kun on the other hand was able to seperate Luke's spirit from his body - a technique Sidious could have done no sooner than DE according the the DE Sourcebook. Before then, his esoteric abilities were slightly less than those of a clone of fallen Jedi Jorus C'boath, Joruus. Gethzerion seemed more powerful than either in her application of esoteric abilities.

I'm getting off-topic here, but my main point is that Force power does not equate to mastery of the Force, a Jedi or Sith must demonstrate their worthiness of a power, sometimes the Sith would have to experience a technique first hand to learn it. Plagueis knew this, although Vader's pool was 70% of the Emperor's, and possibly far greater than Kun's, his capabilities in various arcane techniques like Kun's Force blasts would prove hapless by comparison.

This is also why I believe Revan would thoroughly defeat Malgus, and perhaps even Darth Bane.

I believe Darth Vader takes this--not only for his large amounts experience, the great skill in Djem So that he carried after all of his mechanical disabilities and the incorporations of the Form, his training of Starkiller, and not his Force abilities that allowed him to wipe entire bridges to debris, hurl objects from any corner of any particular location without gesture, utilize unbeatable Force chokes, unleash Force destructions, use Kitenite or his abilities to absorb lightning that could overwhelm and extremely extraordinary Force user--but also because he his a follower of the Order of the Sith Lords, which only the best of the best Sith affiliated themselves with.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, Exar Kun was a Sith Lord about six months on his own. Not much, but his raw power speaks for itself. Also, in that time Exar Kun made super massassi, sith critters of all shape and size, and designed the hundreds of temples his slaves erected in his honor.



I do think that mere 6 months time is going to be a disadvantage when up against another powerful dark sider who's spent decades and fought more darksiders. Especially as a lot of it was spent on alchemical creations rather than more direct usage.




Yes, and notably a still-in-training Corran.

Originally posted by Q99
I do think that mere 6 months time is going to be a disadvantage when up against another powerful dark sider who's spent decades and fought more darksiders. Especially as a lot of it was spent on alchemical creations rather than more direct usage.

In a mere six months, he's as powerful or more powerful than many other Sith who have years under their belt. It's not length of time but how time is spent and natural potential that appears to matter when it comes to the Force. Naturally gifted people move much faster. Anakin Skywalker has less training than Obi-Wan, yet he outgrew his master and in some ways outperformed him regularly, their duel on Mustafar being the only real exception.

My personal belief is that Exar Kun, Anakin, Revan, and Bane are examples of Force prodigies who scale faster than everyone else.



True, it's not a Jedi Master. It's debatable if Corran was even of note at this point, but he's one of the few Force users I can think of that was physically crushed by ragdolling. Even Obi-Wan got choked and chucked by Dooku and suffered no broken bones.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In a mere six months, he's as powerful or more powerful than many other Sith who have years under their belt. It's not length of time but how time is spent and natural potential that appears to matter when it comes to the Force. Naturally gifted people move much faster. Anakin Skywalker has less training than Obi-Wan, yet he outgrew his master and in some ways outperformed him regularly, their duel on Mustafar being the only real exception.

My personal belief is that Exar Kun, Anakin, Revan, and Bane are examples of Force prodigies who scale faster than everyone else.


Still, even faster scaling can only account for so much, and some are really good *and* have decades under them.

Originally posted by Q99
Still, even faster scaling can only account for so much, and some are really good *and* have decades under them.

Length of time is a good argument for mastery of Force powers and diversity, this makes sense. I'm not saying in six months Kun is absolutely better in all ways than people with more training, but I am saying that he's demonstrated abilities far beyond what a mere six months would allow. Personally, I think the length of his reign is unrealistic and the writers had absolutely no sense of scale. The massassi we see clustered in Kun's temple somehow built "hundreds of temples" before he even left Yavin IV and went to Onderon to kick Ulic's face in. He also has a dragon's hoard of Sith and Jedi relics, but even if he never slept it seems unlikely he could master them all unless he has some game-breaking learning curve like Meetra on crack.

Also, compare Maul to Kun; Kun would probably donkey kick Maul in a fight, but Maul's had a lot more training as a Sith.

Originally posted by Dolos
In a mere Force battle; consider this: the Grand Mother of Allana Solo, Tenenial, used Aryan Magick spells that proved to be more powerful and precise applications of TK than Vader's according to Luke's testimony and his inability to overcome her powers just after the events of ROTJ in "The Courtship of Princess Leia".

Now Kun on the other hand was able to seperate Luke's spirit from his body - a technique Sidious could have done no sooner than DE according the the DE Sourcebook. Before then, his esoteric abilities were slightly less than those of a clone of fallen Jedi Jorus C'boath, Joruus. Gethzerion seemed more powerful than either in her application of esoteric abilities.

I'm getting off-topic here, but my main point is that Force power does not equate to mastery of the Force, a Jedi or Sith must demonstrate their worthiness of a power, sometimes the Sith would have to experience a technique first hand to learn it. Plagueis knew this, although Vader's pool was 70% of the Emperor's, and possibly far greater than Kun's, his capabilities in various arcane techniques like Kun's Force blasts would prove hapless by comparison.

This is also why I believe Revan would thoroughly defeat Malgus, and perhaps even Darth Bane.
Interesting analysis.

It didn't take 10,000 Jedi to take down Darth, it took ROTJ Luke. Put Darth against 10,000 Jedi and I guarantee you he'd lose.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
It didn't take 10,000 Jedi to take down Darth, it took ROTJ Luke. Put Darth against 10,000 Jedi and I guarantee you he'd lose.

I admit, a direct scaling is ridiculous, because that would imply 100,000 pissed off Kuns and that seems counter-intuitive. So if I apply a degree of interpretation that says "this is clearly hyperbolic, but I accept that Kun is still immensely boosted in his rage", there's still a reason to believe he can burst and overpower Vader. Even a tenfold increase in rage would make him much stronger than he already is, and Kun is already head and shoulders above everyone else around him without the amulets and Dark Side powers.

Of course, this opens up the can of worms of narration interpretation, in which case I say that Vodo's stick is not stronger than a lightsaber (which always struck me as stupid) and so on, but then it would be inconsistent with how we recognize other canon sources, such as narration in novels and I'm not happy with that either.

Didn't Kun's Spirit incapacitate NJO Luke??? That would put him very high above Vader. Since it's Canon that NJO Luke is Leagues ahead of Palpatine even.

It's very impressive, but hardly the only reason why he'd be a real threat to Vader. I admit Vader is not as weak as I had thought, but I still don't see him on the same level as Kun. Plus his OT showings are comparatively weaker. Is this young Vader or OT Vader?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's very impressive, but hardly the only reason why he'd be a real threat to Vader. I admit Vader is not as weak as I had thought, but I still don't see him on the same level as Kun. Plus his OT showings are comparatively weaker. Is this young Vader or OT Vader? Peak Vader (Vader at his strongest)

But... It's ALSO Kun at his strongest. So it's Peak Kun vs Peak Vader

I think it'd be an epic fight, with a lot of damage on both sides, but Kun ultimately wins the day. This operates under three heavy assumptions:

1. Vader can deal with the amulet blasts if they come into play.

2. Kun's rage buff is much lower than narration implies.

3. Kun doesn't just overcome Vader with some esoteric smoke dark lightning jazz that we've never seen before or since.

There has been progress made this day. A landmark moment.

I still think Kun beats him fairly easily.

I'm stubborn too. estahuh

I was thinking more about the newfound and consistent civility between two diametrically opposed factions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I was thinking more about the newfound and consistent civility between two diametrically opposed factions. Haha, big words are big.... Yay.....

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
SM, Vader hasn't shown to have a defense against some of the abilities you listed that I'm aware of, which is probably the best way for Kun to defeat him;


Agreed.



As far as I recall, the first beam that Kun fires punches a nice hole straight through the Sithwyrm. Then that blasts amp up, until the points where he desintegrates multiple Massassi with one room-sized blast and puts holes through metre-thick space-age temple walls.

Just consider, for a brief moment, the power, that would be needed to outright atomize a human being. Then add a little fraction to that kind of power, to gauge the energy needed to desintegrate the rather huge Massassi warriors Kun hits with the blasts. And then, there is the wall-blasting.

I don't see anybody "tanking" something like that, even though Vader's ability to shrug of physical pain is fairly ridiculous. You just have to look to the end of his duel with Obi-Wan in RotS to realize that. Lying around on a river of lava, without legs and with an missing arm, then getting incinerated. Vader is clearly a beast in the "shrugging of physical trauma" department. But getting blasted into oblivion?



I really don't see Vader doing much with his TK.
The use of telekinesis usually requires some amount of focus. Hence we rarely see it used in the middle of fights, despite the fact that it would come in quite handy as some form of distraction. Just think about the ridiculous TK feats people like Yoda (and neven Dooku) have produced in the saga. We're talking about lifting hundreds of tons of material in some cases. Yet, ragdolling opponents on a regular basis appears to be beyond them.

Vader, and correct me if I'm wrong, is no exception in that department, or is he? I've seldomly seen him using TK in the midst of fights, which is not saying that he can't do it. But I don't think one can determine his ability to do so by actions of him, where he wasn't distracted by somebody attacking him with the force or a lightsaber.

That aside: One might consider that even lesser force users have come close to killing Vader by utilizing the weakness of his suit. Even force use against his lifesuit might be decissive in a fight, even if only temporarily crippling the Sith Lord. And, not to forget, Vader is quite limited in his applications of the Force. The more esoteric powers appear to be completely lost to him, while some abilities (force lightning, drain) can't be used to him due to his physical shape. This against the guy who amassed "more knowledge than he could ever use", in particular stuff from Sadow, who even Sidious labeled as one of the most powerful Sith sorceres without even knowing the full extend of Sadow's abilities.

So when it comes down to a "wizard duel", I still don't see how Vader does even remotely have a chance of winning. He might last for some moments, due to his pain / damage tanking abilities and his natural force connection. But survive or even win? Hardly.

His best shot would probably be a lightsaber duel. But even there, Kun is a master of the art, using a pretty unique weapon and style and could probably counter most of Vader's in-duel-TK attacks, should those happen.

Actually its the second blast that blows up the wall and the last one that goes through the wyrm. I'll post the scans in case you want it:

http://s16.postimg.org/lxwxdfyqd/kunspower.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/mlk1tx.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually its the second blast that blows up the wall and the last one that goes through the wyrm. I'll post the scans in case you want it:


Would have believed you without the scans as well. Not that the particular order of blasts changes much. I can possible imagine Vader "tanking" the very first one. But those that follow?

And wasn't there a picture where two Massassi standing on the ground get hit by a beam from above? I could swear, that I had seen something like that in the comics, though I didn't read them for ages.

Yeah, I was just posting the scans in case you wanted to use it and trying to be helpful. And I agree. The blasts are already really powerful at the start and double in power each time. Vader isn't standing up to them for very long.

Janus posted some more scans on page 2. Do you mean this one:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Captureawawdawd_zps3dc27e8d.jpg

No, that's actually some kind of communal massassi sorcery thing that appears to draw power or focus it from the amulet. Kun does atomize some massassi though and they are force sensitive, if not incredibly trained.

Sabers- Vader
Force- Exar Kun
Hand to hand- Vader
Blasters- Could go either way
All out- Exar Kun

Sabers:Exar Kun
Force:Exar Kun
Hand to hand:Exar Kun
Blasters:Could go either way
All out:Exar Kun

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Hand to hand:Exar Kun
Lmfao.

Has Vader ever destroyed Mandalorian Iron?

Does Vader have effective use of his legs?

No and no. Kun's augmentation is several orders of magnitude better than Vaders, and therefore, he should be capable of ripping Vader limb from limb, remaining more agile all while doing so. I undestand Vader fans are trying to scrape the remaining scraps they might have in this argument, but the Kunt's aren't about to give it to them.

Effective use of his legs? Oh please. Vader is far stronger than Kun. He's crushed skulls with his bare hands, he'd just do the same to Kun lol

Originally posted by Rebel95
Effective use of his legs? Oh please. Vader is far stronger than Kun. He's crushed skulls with his bare hands, he'd just do the same to Kun lol

Exar Kun crushed a holocron with bare hands in a single shot and could contend with Ulic Qel-Droma's physical strength(another brute in his own terms).
And in his sparring match with the deadly kitty; their lightsabers' sounds could be heard from kilometers. Such great was their physical strength. And also when Kun broke Vodo's Force-imbued staff which it was said to be more durable than a lightsaber. Also Kun breaking mandalorian iron from a single shot.
So yeah, Kun has it here as well.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao.

Since when you gave in to Brotherhood of Heresy's side?


There was a time when you were really a nice guy.

Vader fans are really taking a verbal beat down. Their fanboyism is getting wrecked.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader fans are really taking a verbal beat down. Their fanboyism is getting wrecked.

TBH, I have met TOR fanboys. But even they were submissive to the ''debate cure''. Even they opened their eyes with arguments shoved in their faces.
But these PT/OT fanboys are so narrow-minded and ignorant. It makes me like this.

This is me before ''debating'' with an usual PT/OT fanboy:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt2012series/images/7/7f/DavidTennantMussedHairstyle.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150710235936

This is me "debating" with them:


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSk59LKUa-oGACmN9scgVjuAUcPxUEWoxvYiqmkR9qDeXyyh8Xp

This is me after I "debated" with them:

http://p-images.veoh.com/image.out?imageId=user-XAngelinHellX321.jpg&version=4

Now I got locked in prison because I started to kill ignorants and idiots:

http://replygif.net/thumbnail/383.gif

You call shitting out of your mouth debating?

Zoltan would certainly know about shitting from one's mouth...

http://alexnoudelman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/autism.jpg

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
TBH, I have met TOR fanboys. But even they were submissive to the ''debate cure''. Even they opened their eyes with arguments shoved in their faces.
But these PT/OT fanboys are so narrow-minded and ignorant. It makes me like this.

This is me before ''debating'' with an usual PT/OT fanboy:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt2012series/images/7/7f/DavidTennantMussedHairstyle.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150710235936

This is me "debating" with them:


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSk59LKUa-oGACmN9scgVjuAUcPxUEWoxvYiqmkR9qDeXyyh8Xp

This is me after I "debated" with them:

http://p-images.veoh.com/image.out?imageId=user-XAngelinHellX321.jpg&version=4

Now I got locked in prison because I started to kill ignorants and idiots:

http://replygif.net/thumbnail/383.gif


https://media.giphy.com/media/EVbEdEW3kuu0o/giphy.gif

Copying me. Too stupid to link images. Do me favor:

https://media.giphy.com/media/8ZLj8q76WmfMQ/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Nai

https://media.giphy.com/media/EVbEdEW3kuu0o/giphy.gif

Copying me. Too stupid to link images. Do me favor:

https://media.giphy.com/media/8ZLj8q76WmfMQ/giphy.gif
Since when you're real Dr. Who?
I'd have used the Master(Dr.Who) images; but I didn't find any.
And you can calm down. No one takes your precious Doctor; nor will someone have you drunk on KMF and kill you.