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Perhaps we can stop cluttering up the other thread and discuss this properly.

Revan gets jealous that the Hero walked up and did what he failed to do 3 times in a row without breaking a sweat and challenges the Jedi champion to a duel to decide who is truly the greatest Jedi Knight in history.

Revan as of TOR, current Hero of Tython from TOR.

They fight in the Foundry, where Revan fought the Imperial Strike Team. But this time, only one challenges him......

Fight to the death.

Originally posted by Nephthys
to decide who is truly the greatest Jedi Knight in history.

Luke kicks both their asses.

Well, he kicks Revans ass.

I say Hero of Tython in a near stompage fight, since Vitiate generally stomped Revan after all Revan did was block one of his bolts back at him and send him across the room.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, he kicks Revans ass.

Neph, you just gave me an awesome Idea.

Vitiate didn't stomp Revan. But the HOT might have stomped Vitiate.

Vitiate was considered "no match" for the Hero.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate didn't stomp Revan. But the HOT might have stomped Vitiate. Truthfully, Revan did no serious damage, I wouldn't count a single bolt as "serious" so... IMO Vitiate practically stomped him (In their fight before Meetra jumped in, anyway. (Might be right about HoT, in the dark side version, he ragdolls Vitiate)

If you're knocked on your ass twice in a fight, it's not a stomp.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate was considered "no match" for the Hero.

Indeed?

"The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you."

Your questlog updates to say that after you beat him.

Thanks.

Originally posted by ares834
If you're knocked on your ass twice in a fight, it's not a stomp.

He was only "knocked on his ass" once. The bolt may count but it was only because Revan blocked... One... Single, Bolt of Lightning, that, considering Nyriss' Lightning, Revan could've easily blocked back at him instead of using his saber. I wouldn't say it counts for much.

Twice. He also used ridiculous "force on balance" attack.

Again, HoT face a weakened Emperor, Revan faced a fully powered Emperor.

For Vitiate, that human body he possessed may as well have been a decaying clone like the one Sidious used in Empire's End before his final death; compared to his original, Sith Pureblood body, the one that was supposedly "immortal". And so he had difficulty battling HoT when his body could not meet the demands of his spirit.

The original body was strengthened by the ritual, not those of his Voices. That's why he used his voices, to protect his original body, he couldn't risk its destruction, that's how precious it was. I do believe it probably aged away without his spirit, which was why he needed to perform the other ritual.

Please lock thread now.

Originally posted by ares834
If you're knocked on your ass twice in a fight, it's not a stomp. What about being burned alive by a reigning hail of Sith lightning?

That's called losing. I never said he won.

That entire sequence was embarrassing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That entire sequencebook was embarrassing.

True.

Originally posted by Dolos
Again, HoT face a weakened Emperor, Revan faced a fully powered Emperor.

For Vitiate, that human body he possessed may as well have been a decaying clone like the one Sidious used in Empire's End before his final death; compared to his original, Sith Pureblood body, the one that was supposedly "immortal". And so he had difficulty battling HoT when his body could not meet the demands of his spirit.

The original body was strengthened by the ritual, not those of his Voices. That's why he used his voices, to protect his original body, he couldn't risk its destruction, that's how precious it was. I do believe it probably aged away without his spirit, which was why he needed to perform the other ritual.

Please lock thread now.

Yeah, and again, HoT fought him in one of the most powerful darkside nexus' in the galaxy after fighting through the Imperial Guard who "the mightiest of Sith have laid down their lightsabers and surrendered to the inevitable death offered by a guardsman's electrostaff. Even members of the Dark Council fear the Imperial Guard, though many would die before confessing such weakness."

Its not clear that it wasn't Vitiates real body. In fact, if you look right at the bottom of my profile you'll see compelling evidence that it was Vitiates real body.

Also the idea that his body was weak is complete supposition based on nothing.

Dear God, shut up Neph.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate didn't stomp Revan. But the HOT might have stomped Vitiate.

He kinda did. Once he got pissed the battle ended within something like five seconds.

Yeah, how dare I actually argue the topic I created the thread to argue.

We should just complain about Karpyshan some more.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Its not clear that it wasn't Vitiates real body. In fact, if you look right at the bottom of my profile you'll see compelling evidence that it was Vitiates real body.

But then how did Vitiate send mail to the Emperor's Wrath after the fact saying that he was just wounded by some unnamed Jedi Knight?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He kinda did. Once he got pissed the battle ended within something like five seconds.

Because Revan, from the depths of tactical acumen, opted to try to catch a thunderstorm bare handed.

Otherwise he put Vitiate on his ass twice despite Vitiate having every possible interpretation of a home turf advantage.

Vitiate was definitely more powerful and Revan definitely lost, but it wasn't nearly as lopsided as a very small faction suggest.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But then how did Vitiate send mail to the Emperor's Wrath after the fact saying that he was just wounded by some unnamed Jedi Knight?

He didn't. Servants One and Two sent the mail.

He sent mail?

He sent mail?

I have this horrible image of Vitiate hobbling out of the hospital in a medical gown, swinging his cane and chasing down a Sith Fed-Ex truck.

No, he didn't.

Chase down a Fed-Ex truck or send mail?

Send mail.

He isn't Kai Leng.

...So you're saying Vitiate did chase down a Fed-Ex truck, but didn't mail anything?

Now that just doesn't make any sense Neph.

Trololo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He sent mail?

He sent mail?

I have this horrible image of Vitiate hobbling out of the hospital in a medical gown, swinging his cane and chasing down a Sith Fed-Ex truck.

Hahahahahahahaha!

Neph and Tempest are arch-enemies and Stealth comes in with all his epic facts and solves everything.

Is that so?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and again, HoT fought him in one of the most powerful darkside nexus' in the galaxy after fighting through the Imperial Guard who "the mightiest of Sith have laid down their lightsabers and surrendered to the inevitable death offered by a guardsman's electrostaff. Even members of the Dark Council fear the Imperial Guard, though many would die before confessing such weakness."Oh my God. Great for HoT, now moving on to the actual topic:



Very very very clear, Vitiate was a Sith Pureblood (not a Red Sith, he had some human) with black eyes. That was a human with red eyes and no sign of being even remotely Sith.



What's the evidence? He looks like Sidious, the dude he's based off of?



Based on the fact that Vitiate's original body was immortal, and any other body he transferred into would be mortal, but unable to withstand the powers he uses - making him far more limited in battle.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Is that so? Usually, from my Time here, Stealth Moose may be one of the most Knowledgable people in terms of star wars knowledge.

Quit spamming and actually debate.

Though you don't have much to go off of to argue in Fugly's favor.

I just realized I've been calling the dude you four are circle jerking to hot. ****ing retarded.

Inferiors.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because Revan, from the depths of tactical acumen, opted to try to catch a thunderstorm bare handed.

Otherwise he put Vitiate on his ass twice despite Vitiate having every possible interpretation of a home turf advantage.

Vitiate was definitely more powerful and Revan definitely lost, but it wasn't nearly as lopsided as a very small faction suggest.

Revan had no other way of handling said thunderstorm. He couldn't stop it with his saber (or he'd end up like the Jedi strike team from JK story Act II) and he couldn't close the distance fast enough to stop the assault, and if you know how the radius of a Force Storm is it'd be pretty hard to dodge. Absorption was his best option, and he wasn't powerful enough to handle the energies.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Revan had no other way of handling said thunderstorm. He couldn't stop it with his saber (or he'd end up like the Jedi strike team from JK story Act II) and he couldn't close the distance fast enough to stop the assault, and if you know how the radius of a Force Storm is it'd be pretty hard to dodge. Absorption was his best option, and he wasn't powerful enough to handle the energies.

For whatever reason Vitiate never conjured a Force storm in his battle with the Fugly Hero like he did against Revan. Hmm, I wonder why, maybe he wasn't really at his best - maybe Lord Scourge spent decades studying his weaknesses for a f^cking reason.

Jeezuz.

Originally posted by Dolos
For whatever reason Vitiate never conjured a Force storm in his battle with the Fugly Hero like he did against Revan. Hmm, I wonder why, maybe he wasn't really at his best - maybe Lord Scourge spent decades studying his weaknesses for a f^cking reason.

Jeezuz. So, tell me, elaborate, was HoT weakened in their fight???

It's pretty much said that he was by Vitiate, or is that not a valid point?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Revan had no other way of handling said thunderstorm. He couldn't stop it with his saber (or he'd end up like the Jedi strike team from JK story Act II)

Proof?

Originally posted by ares834
Proof? He tried, and failed, to absorb it.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He tried, and failed, to absorb it.

Reread what I quoted....

Stop calling him hot, it's gay, it's irritating, will you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ please stop this nonsense. No one has never been wanked to his extent ever in existence. Goddamn.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
So, tell me, elaborate, was HoTFUGLY weakened in their fight???

Completely ****ing irrelevant, totally irrelevant. Unequivocally irrelevant. Either way, it was never demonstrated that he was any less than normal.

F^ck no. As demonstrated, Vitiate's statement was just that, perhaps made as a desperate effort to instill doubt in Fugly. Kinda like when he told Fugly that he lacked the force of will to harness his powers. Either way, Vitiate was most definitely, demonstrably weakened.

Yoda fought Dooku in a dark side nexus and still was not significantly weakened by it. Dooku's powers were unaffected by his battles with Anakin and Obi-wan before going toe to toe with Yoda. There is the thing, there's no reason to assume he did not regain his base levels after cutting down the Temple guard.

Originally posted by Dolos
Stop calling him hot, it's gay, it's irritating, will you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ please stop this nonsense. No one has never been wanked to his extent ever in existence. Goddamn.



Completely ****ing irrelevant, totally irrelevant. Unequivocally irrelevant. Either way, it was never demonstrated that he was any less than normal.

F^ck no. As demonstrated, Vitiate's statement was just that, perhaps made as a desperate effort to instill doubt in Fugly. Kinda like when he told Fugly that he lacked the force of will to harness his powers. Either way, Vitiate was most definitely, demonstrably weakened. So even after fighting through Kaas City, he stayed the same? After fighting the Imperial Guard.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
So even after fighting through Kaas City, he stayed the same? After fighting the Imperial Guard. And recovering his personal Force reservoir, yes. It's not like he got tagged or sustained any damage that might impair him.

Originally posted by ares834
Proof?
Lightsabers become ineffective when Vitiate ups his game with Force lightning. He effortlessly disarmed the entire Jedi Strike Team with his FLS on his Space Station.

Heck, Vitiate's apprentice destroyed the lightsaber itself (of her opponent) with her Force lightning. Malgus also have a feat (or feats) of overwhelming lightsaber based defenses with his FLS.

---

As far as Revan vs. Vitiate is concerned; yes, Revan was utterly outgunned. Vitiate was initially not taking him seriously but when he did, it was over. If T3-M4 had not helped Revan, the Jedi Master would have been utterly destroyed by Vitiate. However, Vitiate changed his plan at the last moment and decided to use Revan as a source of information on The Republic.

I think that the author went out of his way to respect Revan during his clash with Vitiate for the sake of keeping fans happy.

Originally posted by Dolos
Oh my God. Great for HoT, now moving on to the actual topic:

Concession accepted. awepedo

Originally posted by Dolos
Very very very clear, Vitiate was a Sith Pureblood (not a Red Sith, he had some human) with black eyes. That was a human with red eyes and no sign of being even remotely Sith.

the emperor was a pureblood, but after so many centuries of life he has little in common with ordinary Sith.

Darkside corruption turns a Sith Purebloods skin white. After millennia its entirely possible he was turned entirely a different color in terms of skin.

Originally posted by Dolos
What's the evidence? He looks like Sidious, the dude he's based off of?

One of the lead writers for SWTOR flat out says it was Vitiates real body.

Originally posted by Dolos
Based on the fact that Vitiate's original body was immortal, and any other body he transferred into would be mortal, but unable to withstand the powers he uses - making him far more limited in battle.

Wrong, The Emperor's Voice suffered no such effects. Furthermore, if that was Vitiates Voice then he could not possibly have occupied it long enough for have it suffer, since the Wrath kills his Voice very shortly before Vitiates fight with the Hero. If it was a new one the HoT fought, it would be very new.

However, theres no indication that the Voice is limited in that way. SWTORE says 'The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down any who displease him." No mention is made of that power being limited.

HoT > Vitiate > Revan /thread.

Originally posted by Stigma
HoT > Vitiate > Revan /thread.
No,

This is canon ranking:

Vitiate > HoT

Originally posted by Nephthys
"The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you."

Your questlog updates to say that after you beat him.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I say Hero of Tython in a near stompage fight, since Vitiate generally stomped Revan after all Revan did was block one of his bolts back at him and send him across the room.

You shouldn't even be allowed to have that signature. You disgust Revan fans everywhere.

Originally posted by Stigma
HoT > Vitiate > Revan /thread. Vitiate>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Revan>Fugly.

****ing retards, literally, you are all completely retarded. Scourge exploited a weakness.

Someone permaban Neph now that Fugly has two more votes.

Which weakness did Scourge exploit?

4 Points:

1. Vidiot couldn't summon a Force storm in that state. Prof me wrong, retards.

2. Fugly was not in a weakened state, there's no reason to assume he didn't have time to regain his Force reserves between his battle with the guards and his battle with Vidiot. There is no statement or quote anywhere that claims that the dark temple weakened him during that battle. Furthermore, Vidiot was trying to break his confidence, saying his compassion for Kira weakened him, and that he lacked the will to harness his power.

3. Lord Scourge, having long studied Vidiot's weaknesses, claimed that the Emperor would be weakened in preparation for his ritual - not that he was currently weakened. True, Scourge said he would recover quickly, but there's no evidence that he recovered all of his strength before his battle with Fugly.

4. Vidiot's form did not have pure black eyes, he did not remotely resemble a Sith Pureblood - and having something in common=/=being the same species, and Karpyshyn never claimed that was his original body on his Twitter Account.

Nepedophile, keep Drew fat by wasting your money on your SWTOR account.

Originally posted by Dolos
4. Vidiot's form did not have pure black eyes, he did not remotely resemble a Sith Pureblood - and having something in common=/=being the same species, and Karpyshyn never claimed that was his original body on his Twitter Account.

That's actually a really good point...

Originally posted by Nephthys
the emperor was a pureblood, but after so many centuries of life he has little in common with ordinary Sith.

Darkside corruption turns a Sith Purebloods skin white. After millennia its entirely possible he was turned entirely a different color in terms of skin.

So when Drew says something that agrees with your argument you use it as evidence but when it doesn't it's non-canon...

Originally posted by ares834
That's actually a really good point...

It is a good point, and its really the only thing that casts any doubt on it really being him. However, I've explained that away the potential inconsistency. Its simply from centuries of darkside corruption. His body was turned white and his eyes red just like any Siths is in TOR with full corruption.


Plus I'm pretty sure Scourge would have been able to tell if it wasn't Vitiate, either when he was talking to the HoT via holocall or if they talked afterwards.

Originally posted by ares834
So when Drew says something that agrees with your argument you use it as evidence but when it doesn't it's non-canon...

Drew was very specific to deny any claims to canon when he was talking about Vitiates mental abilities. Not so in that twitter post. Plus I don't actually need that as proof. Its merely showing where my explanation comes from. Vitiate being intensely corrupted doesn't need confirmation.

In fact, that the Vitiate we see in Doomsday was clearly corrupted at all is almost proof that it was really him. Both other times we've seen the Emperor's Voice (in the comic and in the Warrior storyline), it hasn't suffered from any corruption. Yet the man in the Dark Temple was corrupted, despite the fact that if it was the Voice, he would have been in possession of it a lot less than in the previous two cases.

I think its obvious that it was him.


/spergpost

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps not (or perhaps he did), though he didn't summon a Force storm in his battle with Revan either, so its inconsequential for a comparison between the two.

Yes he did, it was the attack that deepfried Revan, Hero would be crushed by that same attack, if Vitiate wasn't in such a weakened form. That's why it's such a blow to your delusions of grandeur.



So what!? Do you know how powerful he was, see: DE Sidious and Darth Nihilus.



Dooku engaged in a Force battle with Grand Master Yoda not one minute after owning Obi-Wan and Anakin.



It's not the same. Vitiate was preparing to absorb all Biota in the entire freaking galaxy, Hero was brawling Temple guards. Get Hero of Tythoon's wank-juice out of your ears.



So a statement from a treacherous Sith Lord who is known to make another statement about Hero's inability to harness his power is infallible proof?

He wasn't running into the Emperor's throne room, he was strutting along at a moderate pace, it doesn't take long to regain one's composure.



Says the desperate Sith Lord who's in a severely weakened form.



So was the planet in which Yoda faced Dooku in their second encounter, Yoda was not weakened and he did not have trouble accessing his powers.



We have no idea what Vitiate was doing to prepare for the annihilation of all life in the galaxy.



DO NOT WANNA SAY THAT TO MY FAAACE



Yes, a body was destroyed. But was it his original, immortal body? Yet again, there's an absence of evidence. Either way, that's just icing on the cake, as Vitiate was extraordinarily weakened - and the notion that Hero was not weakened is just more of a bonus. Either way, Hero's victory over a most definitely weakened Vitiate is a 100% unquantifiable feat that does not help his case against Revan. His potential might, but there's absolutely zero reason to assume he unlocked it during the events of TOR.

Meetra beat a weakened Nihilus, Hero beat a weakened Vitiate, and pre-JA Luke beat a weakened Sidious.



It wasn't just his irises, there were no whites in his eyes, the eyes were a total void. If that's not the result of early dark side corruption I don't know what is. Just like Palpatine being an infant with unnatural strength, or Tenebrae, speaking in a voice unnaturally deep for his age, like Sidious in ROTS.



Naaaaaah



Oh, but you are still wasting hours and hours on an unproductive MMO game you've already finished to completion (most likely as multiple Imp and Pub classes)???

K.

http://cdn-media.hollywood.com/images/l/Emperor-Palpatine.jpg

The Hero of Tython would swamp Revan

Yes. The HoT did what Revan failed to do 3 times in a row and made him look like an incompetent boob in comparison.

Sorry Revan, the Hero is the main character now!

tbh even by the end of act 2 HoT may be more powerful. Lord Scourge at this point may have been as powerful as Revan. His potential is hinted at by Revan in his novel, plus he has the extra experience and skill.

Probably only as powerful. I mean, Vitiate did beat the Hero and 3 other Jedi at the same time with a single attack. Sure, he's gotten more powerful since Revan, but I wouldn't put the Act II Hero above Revan based on that showing.

HoT fared better against the FLS than Revan did

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
tbh even by the end of act 2 HoT may be more powerful. Lord Scourge at this point may have been as powerful as Revan. His potential is hinted at by Revan in his novel, plus he has the extra experience and skill.

Not even close.

Also, I think the HoT could probably beat the Imperial Strike team that beat Revan. mmm

prime HoT definitely could.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. The HoT did what Revan failed to do 3 times in a row and made him look like an incompetent boob in comparison.


I don't know, how their actions even compare.

According to ingame information as well as the SWTOR Encyclopedia, Vitiate had stored part of his power in:


in his original body
in his Voice
in the Emperor's Wrath (and Scourge)
in the 12 hands
in hundreds of his children.


So, logically, Vitiate as he appears in SW:ToR has to be by far weaker than the Vitiate Revan faced. And then, he is even more weakened by the failed ritual when the HoT finally defeats him (with assistance of T7).

And then, you always make it sound, as if everything the HoT has done was done by him alone. Going by the fact, that he always had assistance, - ranging from the aforementioned R2(demigod)-like T7 through a Child-of-the-Emperor kum Jedi Knight and, finally, the immortal Lord Scourge - one can't attribute everything just to him. Much like it wasn't Revan alone who did every heroic deed in KotoR. And the same goes for Meetra in KotoR 2.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, I think the HoT could probably beat the Imperial Strike team that beat Revan. mmm

In a forum fight, sure. He can quickly kill the agent and BH with TK.

Originally posted by Nai
I don't know, how their actions even compare.

According to ingame information as well as the SWTOR Encyclopedia, Vitiate had stored part of his power in:


in his original body
in his Voice

Hmm, I don't think this is true. According to this:

"For centuries, the Emperor's Voice has delivered the Sith leader's commandments to his servants. In fact, to converse with the Emperor's Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice's body."

And SWTORE says the same thing. So by all rights, Vitiates power is held within his Voice when he is occupying it. He isn't splitting it between the two bodies.

Originally posted by Nai
in the Emperor's Wrath (and Scourge)

Not true, Vitiate doesn't grant power to the Emperor's Wrath (that is, the Sith Warrior class). As for Scourge, his martial ability was boosted by the Emperor, but I highly doubt its something that requires a constant portion of Vitiates power, rather than improving him with sorcery in some way. Like for instance how Talzin improved Savage Opress. If it was a constant boost though I also don't see why Vitiate wouldn't sever it after Scourge betrayed him.

Originally posted by Nai
in the 12 hands

Again, not true. In fact the encyclopedia indicates that Vitiate draws power from them instead of the other way around.

Originally posted by Nai
in hundreds of his children.


Eh, this is the only accurate one you named. However, many of the Children were killed in the Consular storyline, including the First Son and they were thus revealed to the Republic, which likely lead to more of them being killed.

Also it only says that they 'share' a portion of his power, so its entirely possible that they are merely drawing on his power like the Imperial Guard does when near him. Also since the connection between he and them is always open I don't see why he couldn't draw on their power should he need to.

Originally posted by Nai
So, logically, Vitiate as he appears in SW:ToR has to be by far weaker than the Vitiate Revan faced. And then, he is even more weakened by the failed ritual when the HoT finally defeats him (with assistance of T7).

I disagree. Vitiates power is stated in SWTORE to be ever increasing, not diminished. Furthermore he's been draining power from Revan for 300 years since his capture, again indicating an increased amount of power. And he's drawing power (and vitality) from the 12 Hands you mentioned. The only possible draw on his power IMO is from the Children and that is nebulous and arguable.

Originally posted by Nai
And then, you always make it sound, as if everything the HoT has done was done by him alone.

A fair comment, but the Hero's actions were always attributed to them in the game so thats how I presented it. I also don't think her companions contributions were that notable, with the possible exception of Scourge when he joins.

Originally posted by Nai
Going by the fact, that he always had assistance, - ranging from the aforementioned R2(demigod)-like T7

Lol.

Originally posted by Nai
through a Child-of-the-Emperor kum Jedi Knight

Kira is never shown drawing on the power of an Emperor's Child. We see in the Consular campaign that a Child is a completely different personality and being to their host, so I see no reason why she would be able to. Furthermore, she's an unfinished one anyway, as Vitiate notes, after calling her weak.

Originally posted by Nai
I don't know, how their actions even compare.

According to ingame information as well as the SWTOR Encyclopedia, Vitiate had stored part of his power in:


in his original body
in his Voice
in the Emperor's Wrath (and Scourge)
in the 12 hands
in hundreds of his children.


So, logically, Vitiate as he appears in SW:ToR has to be by far weaker than the Vitiate Revan faced. And then, he is even more weakened by the failed ritual when the HoT finally defeats him (with assistance of T7).

And then, you always make it sound, as if everything the HoT has done was done by him alone. Going by the fact, that he always had assistance, - ranging from the aforementioned R2(demigod)-like T7 through a Child-of-the-Emperor kum Jedi Knight and, finally, the immortal Lord Scourge - one can't attribute everything just to him. Much like it wasn't Revan alone who did every heroic deed in KotoR. And the same goes for Meetra in KotoR 2. If that's true, then by those standards, after 300 years of being constantly tortured, Revan should be on his level, shouldn't he? I mean if he was ALREADY weakened over the years by storing his power in different bodies (basically what you side) on top of the weakened state he was in during his fight with the Hero of Tython, why couldn't Revan storm in there with Scourge and while HoT and Scourge are fighting the imperial strike team, Revan uses Tutaminis against him after he tries to use his weakened force storm, and crushes him. Come to think of it, by that logic, alot of people should be far ahead of him during the events of TOR, including Satele, and the Jedi Strike Team that was supposed to assassinate him. Oh wait, they didn't? No? No, because they couldn't. Because Vitiate was too powerful.

Revan was gone, and Scourge states that being in the Emperor's presence (as a foe) would be too much for him to handle.

Scourge and Satele say that being in the Emperor's presence would be too much for anyone except the HoT to handle.

Even weakened the Emperor would stomp anyone other than the HoT.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan was gone, and Scourge states that being in the Emperor's presence (as a foe) would be too much for him to handle.

Exactly my point, if Vitiate was so weak (According to the dullard's posting) then how come Revan couldn't take him? Revan's power increased within the 300 year gap between "Revan" and "SW:TOR" and according to everyone, Vitiate was weakened immensely, so why couldn't Revan take him? And my answer to that is... Because he wasn't strong enough, he was too weak to defeat Vitiate on his own, something HoT had no trouble doing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge and Satele say that being in the Emperor's presence would be too much for anyone except the HoT to handle.

when did satele say that?

Before the mission you can ask Satele to join you in fighting Vitiate and she says that anyone other than the HoT would get pwned by his telepathic domination.

You know, just in case we needed more proof that the Hero >>> Satele.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Exactly my point, if Vitiate was so weak (According to the dullard's posting) then how come Revan couldn't take him? Revan's power increased within the 300 year gap between "Revan" and "SW:TOR" and according to everyone, Vitiate was weakened immensely, so why couldn't Revan take him? And my answer to that is... Because he wasn't strong enough, he was too weak to defeat Vitiate on his own, something HoT had no trouble doing.

No, the answer is cuz he was dead.

interesting.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Before the mission you can ask Satele to join you in fighting Vitiate and she says that anyone other that the HoT would get pwned by his telepathic domination.



No, the answer is cuz he was dead.

That's an opinion, it's not canonically a fact, it's 50/50 for people on what happened to Revan. I personally think he used the Fold Space technique :P

and now i'm off to play swtor

Ya'lls is morons.

Just give up.

I do believe Neph is the leader of this Wank Faction, either her or S_W_LeGeND, but they don't see eye to eye; one wanks Jedi Hero from TOR, the other doesn't really wank, though he did go crazy and wanked a little to defend Revan in the Revan Vs Darth Caedus thread.

True, I am the indisputable master of all things Swtor on this forum.


Bow, peon.

you just cant accept that HoT>>Revan. Hell you've even said Revan>>>>>>>>>HoT. lmfaobyfsaswdagityts

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, I am the indisputable master of all things Swtor on this forum.


Bow, peon. You're the Queen of Wank.

http://immokalee.biz/assets/content/applauseResized.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't want to type it out.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually the full quote says 'Infants of all species taken before the Sith Emperor, the children are infused with the Emperor's strength, sharing some measure of his thoughts and power for the rest of their lives.' It does say they were infused with his strength, but in the same line it elaborates that they are 'sharing' a portion of his power.

Sure, which still seems like a concrete way of saying he is giving them some of his power. The word "sharing" does not contradict the word "infused" in any way and just accents it. Basically he infuses (gives) them some of his power thus they are "sharing" it.

And likewise the word 'infused' doesn't contradict 'sharing' the power. Thus why I only said it was "entirely possible" and "nebulous and arguable."

Neph, give up.

I am never going to give you up and never going to let you down. But I can promise that I'm never going to ruuuun around and desert you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And likewise the word 'infused' doesn't contradict 'sharing' the power. Thus why I only said it was "entirely possible" and "nebulous and arguable."

There is almost nothing arguable about it. If he is infusing them with his own power he is putting his power in them. They aren't drawing it off of him like the guards as he is literally filling them up with his own power.

Originally posted by ares834
Uh, Revan wasn't around at the time and was possibly dead... Then why not instead of going to the foundry did he just help Scourge and HoT, on top of Kira Carsen and T7 along with them??? While they fought the Imperial Guards as a team, Revan could've fought Vitiate and won by that point if he was as weak as everyone made him out to be during the SWTOR Era. And if he couldn't, then by Dolos logic, neither could HoT, which means you would be arguing that HoT couldn't defeat Vitiate either, which he did. HoT is stronger then Revan.

Originally posted by ares834
There is almost nothing arguable about it. If he is infusing them with his own power he is putting his power in them. They aren't drawing it off of him like the guards as he is literally filling them up with his own power.

I'm not seeing how that contradicts 'sharing' the power with them either.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not seeing how that contradicts 'sharing' the power with them either.

It doesn't. But if I, say, share candy with my brother I can't get back the candy I gave him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I am never going to give you up and never going to let you down. But I can promise that I'm never going to ruuuun around and desert you. http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2541/w3cn.jpg

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then why not instead of going to the foundry did he just help Scourge and HoT, on top of Kira Carsen and T7 along with them??? While they fought the Imperial Guards as a team, Revan could've fought Vitiate and won by that point if he was as weak as everyone made him out to be during the SWTOR Era. And if he couldn't, then by Dolos logic, neither could HoT, which means you would be arguing that HoT couldn't defeat Vitiate either, which he did. HoT is stronger then Revan.

Your "logic" is incredibly flawed. After all, Revan wanted to destroy the Empire not merely kill the Emperor. Plus there are many other circumstances involved.

Originally posted by ares834
It doesn't. But if I, say, share candy with my brother I can't get back the candy I gave him.

Force power isn't candy. If you're sharing a baseball bat with your brother you can take the bat from him if you want.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Force power isn't candy. If you're sharing a baseball bat with your brother you can take the bat from him if you want.

True, and if only the word "share" was used I would agree that it is arguable. But then, when you take into account the word "infused", it becomes clear that they aren't drawing power from Vitiate rather he filled them with it.

Originally posted by Dolos
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2541/w3cn.jpg

Ok.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NWjlz4sbJnc/T3OpkWxrxwI/AAAAAAAAA4I/XgVWZFXbhrs/s220/cool-story-bro-chair-gif.gif

Incredible.

3 members who make sense need to vote and this can be resolved.

Quick! Stealth Moose, vote for the HoT!

Originally posted by ares834
True, and if only the word "share" was used I would agree that it is arguable. But then, when you take into account the word "infused", it becomes clear that they aren't drawing power from Vitiate rather he filled them with it.

They can be filled with something and still be sharing it with him in the sense that he can draw on it. I think the correct interpretation is the one that incorporates both word instead of only one.

I already voted for HoT when the thread was made. But that's because my Astridia is fokkin hot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They can be filled with something and still be sharing it with him in the sense that he can draw on it. I think the correct interpretation is the one that incorporates both word instead of only one.

Except there is absolutely no evidence that he can draw on their powers.

And I agree, the interpretation that fits both words is the one to go with. Of course, that interpretation would be mine.

It fits the definition of "infuse" and the definition of "share" specifically this definition:

"the part allotted or belonging to one of a number owning together property or interest"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/share

Your interpretation does not fit the fact that they are "infused" with the Emperor's power.

Originally posted by ares834
Except there is absolutely no evidence that he can draw on their powers.

And I agree, the interpretation that fits both words is the one to go with. Of course, that interpretation would be mine.

It fits the definition of "infuse" and the definition of "share" specifically this definition:

"the part allotted or belonging to one of a number owning together property or interest"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/share

Your interpretation does not fit the fact that they are "infused" with the Emperor's power.

Except for the part where they are 'sharing' the power with him. It also says they are sharing a portion of his thoughts, I suppose they alone have access to that too, huh?

No, its mine. >_<

I don't understand that sentence.

It totally does allow for them to be infused with it too. He has placed a portion of his strength in their body, but that does not mean that he cannot access that portion, sharing it with them. It fits in with both words.

Dolos, you're being rather intolerant and combative. Kind of like a Sorgo clone. Or maybe you're the Sorgo's Voice or one of his hundreds of children?

Like I said if only the word "share" was used I'd agree about it's ambiguity, but it isn't.

Also, my edit erases all doubt IMO. Vitiate has placed a portion of his very being into his children.

Shut up ares.

No, its ambiguous only because the word 'infused' was used. Geez get it right.

Er, yes we already knew that. It says they share a measure of his thoughts and power i.e. his being. Thats not news to anyone. Thats precisely why I think he could possibly draw on the power. A portion of his being connects them to him.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2mSbx797LJg/ULVhmbEnJCI/AAAAAAAALSA/gEn90Mwv2Y0/w506-h335/Tarkin.jpg

In my moment of triumph? Never.

Originally posted by ares834
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2mSbx797LJg/ULVhmbEnJCI/AAAAAAAALSA/gEn90Mwv2Y0/w506-h335/Tarkin.jpg

In my moment of triumph? Never.

Your efforts are ultimately working against my efforts to undermine Vitiate. It will behoove you to cease and desist, else I'll shove my proton torpedo down your exhaust port swiftly and without mercy.

Yeah, I'm bored already anyway... Probably my last post on the subject.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, its ambiguous only because the word 'infused' was used. Geez get it right.

Er, yes we already knew that. It says they share a measure of his thoughts and power i.e. his being. Thats not news to anyone. Thats precisely why I think he could possibly draw on the power. A portion of his being connects them to him.

Yes, a separate portion of his essence.

Ultimately, your argument relies on a specific reading of a rather ambiguous use of the word "share". Mine relies on all the other ways it has been stated which have the children be "infused" or "filled" with his power and fits a specific use of the word "share" as well.

And both interpretations differ from your original theory which had you claiming they draw upon Vitiate like the guards. *shrug* That is, after all, what I was initially arguing against, the idea that the Children draw upon the Emperor.

It isn't a separate portion of his essence though. They are connected to him. That's why he could so easily possess Kira at the end of the JK Act I.

No it doesn't. To share something with someone almost always means that you're both possessing it at the same time. Even if you share something with someone, to 'share' it still means that you own it and can take it back if you want. Otherwise you'd be 'giving' it to them. For them only to be in possession of it would mean that he 'gave' it to them instead of 'sharing' it with them.

I was only using the guards as an example. I said in the next sentence that Vitiate would be drawing on 'their' power.

I guess one more post...

Certain objects that are shared can not be gotten back like food and money. With the way the rest of the Children of the Emperor stuff is worded, it seems power works in a similar way.

Except that makes no sense since power isn't consumed through use like money and food are. You use it, then it replenishes. Vitiate can take it back by drawing on it, theoretically.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your efforts are ultimately working against my efforts to undermine Vitiate. It will behoove you to cease and desist, else I'll shove my proton torpedo down your exhaust port swiftly and without mercy. Shouldn't the versus forum be about bringing to light who is actually more powerful.

That's the reason Neph is vexxing me, she only gives a shit about her hard on for an unnamed character who has very vague and unquantifiable feats and victories. Actually no feats as the only text written about demonstrations power that exist for the character, outside of the N canon sequence in game-play, are in SWTOR: Encyclopedia - which doesn't give enough to go off of.

Yea, a gifted Jedi kills a lot of Temple Guards and goes on to defeat The Emperor as his plans crumble around him. Sounds a lot like Luke from DE - who got stomped by Exar Kun's spirit.

I always thought Post-DE Luke was ridiculous for body leaping and having an Imperial Guard to cow his Dark Council. And that whole thing with sapping a planet lifeless? Shame!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I always thought Post-DE Luke was ridiculous for body leaping and having an Imperial Guard to cow his Dark Council. And that whole thing with sapping a planet lifeless? Shame!

Exactly. Ex ****in actly.

Just because this unnamed character beat Vitiate, doesn't mean he's anything. As Luke beat DE Sidious, Meetra beat Nihilus.

Originally posted by Dolos
That's the reason Neph is vexxing me, she only gives a shit about her hard on for an unnamed character who has very vague and unquantifiable feats and victories. Actually no feats as the only text written about demonstrations power that exist for the character, outside of the N canon sequence in game-play, are in SWTOR: Encyclopedia - which doesn't give enough to go off of.

Yea, a gifted Jedi kills a lot of Temple Guards and goes on to defeat The Emperor as his plans crumble around him. Sounds a lot like Luke from DE - who got stomped by Exar Kun's spirit.

^For when she logs back in to endlessly wank a Jedi Master from SWTOR.

I was actually pointing out that DE Luke is nothing like Vitiate, so the comparison was invalid.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I was actually pointing out that DE Luke is nothing like Vitiate, so the comparison was invalid. Except, DE Luke lost to Sidious in a lightsaber duel when Leia was not present. Except, DE Sidious was far more powerful than DE Luke in every capacity, especially since he was in a perfected clone of his younger self, no amount of skill can make up for having fraction the speed and strength of your opponent. DE clearly demonstrates, from their first duel, that Sidious was better than Luke.

Same goes for Vitiate>Hero.

It's a fact, Luke did surpass Sidious in NJO - I'll give you that. But someone who is disarmed by a young, barely trained Kyp Dorrun with the Force alone, and who has his soul ripped out by Exar Kun's 5,000 year old spirit, is not more powerful than Sidious.

The relevant point I'm making in this thread for Revan is that Hero has no feat that outmatches all of Revan's, and that the Hero defeated a weakened Vitiate, not the one Revan faced.

YOU'RE trying to get me to separate warrior classes from mage classes like this is an RPG and as if SW discriminates one as being more suited for combat than another, when really the mage is just a more powerful warrior class in the hierarchy of this mythos. YOU'RE also trying to get me to separate canons and eras and accept concepts like PIS and CIS to keep your sanity. I won't do that.

Originally posted by Dolos
Except, DE Luke lost to Sidious in a lightsaber duel when Leia was not present. Except, DE Sidious was far more powerful than DE Luke in every capacity, especially since he was in a perfected clone of his younger self, no amount of skill can make up for having fraction the speed and strength of your opponent. DE clearly demonstrates, from their first duel, that Sidious was better than Luke.

Same goes for Vitiate>Hero.

It's a fact, Luke did surpass Sidious in NJO - I'll give you that. But someone who is disarmed by a young, barely trained Kyp Dorrun with the Force alone, and who has his soul ripped out by Exar Kun's 5,000 year old spirit, is not more powerful than Sidious.

The relevant point I'm making in this thread for Revan is that Hero has no feat that outmatches all of Revan's, and that the Hero defeated a weakened Vitiate, not the one Revan faced.

YOU'RE trying to get me to separate warrior classes from mage classes like this is an RPG and as if SW discriminates one as being more suited for combat than another, when really the mage is just a more powerful warrior class in the hierarchy of this mythos. YOU'RE also trying to get me to separate canons and eras and accept concepts like PIS and CIS to keep your sanity. I won't do that.

1. I'm not making any CRPG distinctions. This is some kind of unique strawmanning here.


2. The comparison is invalid because Luke as of fighting Exar Kun's spirit was not the same as Vitiate; specifically, he was not a thousand year old Force oddity who had been immersed in Dark Side techniques and sapped the collective strengths of millions and was capable of Grand Theft Me's. I'm fairly certain that if Kun's spirit tried anything on Vitiate, he's get donkey stomped. Freedan Nadd's spirit was arguably stronger in the Force than some PT Jedi, healing fatal injuries and attacking Jedi masters solely using the Force - both feats done across lightyears. When Kun got his amulets, Nadd was vanquished.

So if you intend to argue the comparison, you have to use something called context.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmm, I don't think this is true. According to this:

"For centuries, the Emperor's Voice has delivered the Sith leader's commandments to his servants. In fact, to converse with the Emperor's Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice's body."

And SWTORE says the same thing. So by all rights, Vitiates power is held within his Voice when he is occupying it. He isn't splitting it between the two bodies.


"The Voice is the conduit for the Emperor's words." - Servant Two.

"The Emperor is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delives his orders.To guard against further vunerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspire against him. Centuries later , this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

As Vitiate apparently retains a part of his power in his original body (otherwise the Voice wouldn't make much sense at all), there is some seperation of power between the Voice and Vitiate's original body. Which is only logical, as a body without Force energy is, pretty much, dead, as we all know from the KotoR-2-experience.



I think, you're correct there.



Yes, he gets some kind of power from them (Force energy, life energy) But they are, as well, getting power from him, given that they have a permanent connection to his mind and share his immortality.



"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his indisidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

Emphasis mine. The same page notes that the First Son was "the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power."

So, apparently, he leaves some of his power with his children and I doubt, that this part of his power somehow "returns" when they die. Meaning, essentially, that the Consular storyline resulted in a further weakening of Vitiate.




See above. They are imprinted with a part of his power. How else would he use them as "spies" without them even being aware of that?



And is the term "power" referring to his force abilities specifically, Neph? The last time, I have read that particular statement, it was in reference to his "power base" (Hands, Voice, Wrath, Children), which did obviously grow after his confrontation with Revan. His personal force abilties, though?

Splitting his power at the very least between his Voice, his original body and his children, with potentially even more power delivered to his hands, and occassionally - I've forgotten that - the Imperial Guard drawing on it, I don't see how Vitiate as a person should be as powerful, as he was when Revan faced him (talking about his personal force abilities).



You should differ between actual game-play and storytelling. Just as example: When entering the ship of Darth Angral, T7 tells the HoT that he will go and disable the power reactors for the superweapon, while Kira and the HoT can go deal with Angral. In gameplay terms, the HoT does all the work with one of the two, though.

The second thing is, that I find it rather hard to believe - the same goes for the KotoR games - that having an entire crew, the respective hero will just go on a stroll with one or two of his companions in a quest to save the Galaxy. Taking the cutscene from above, it appears to be "canon", that the Hero, Kira and T7 where actively participating in stopping Darth Angral, when T7 is left out of the equation in terms of game play. Couldn't that apply to other situations as well, as long as there is nobody explicitly left behind (e.g. during the confrontation with the Emperor)?

So there might be 2, 3 or 4 companions with the HoT at some of his more grandious moments, where the gameplay allows only one. And even then: One can't outright dismiss another force user / a combat surgeon with heal abilities / an R2-like astromech / an heavy armed combat specialist or a freaking 300 year old Sith Lord.

And the third problem with this MMORPG "feats" I have, is that their nature is pretty much unknown. We don't know, whether the HoT struggled against Vitiate or stomped him. We don't know, if he just dueled the Sith Emperor in a "classic" match, as its seen in movies and cutscene, or if he was amped with heavy armor, personal shield, medpacks and stimulants. While this may sound like the "Revan might have defeated Malak with blasters and mines" stuff, in this case the options are far more limited and hence - seemingly - far more probable.



How could you even know that, Neph?
If that power is something, Vitiate stored within his children, even unknown to them, then how could they make a difference between their "own" power and that of Vitiate? And I think you are fairly underestimating Kira. When you go on a companion quest with her on Nar Shadda, it is revealed, that she pretty much exterminated an entire rivaling fashion that treated "her people" like slaves on her own. And apparently in a fashion that scared all other people off even years after she left.

Not too shabby, for some almost untrained force using youth, right?

You're surprisingly knowledgeable Nai. Did/do you play TOR or is this all from research?

Originally posted by Nai
"The Voice is the conduit for the Emperor's words." - Servant Two.

"The Emperor is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders.To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspire against him. Centuries later , this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

As Vitiate apparently retains a part of his power in his original body (otherwise the Voice wouldn't make much sense at all), there is some seperation of power between the Voice and Vitiate's original body. Which is only logical, as a body without Force energy is, pretty much, dead, as we all know from the KotoR-2-experience.

I don't see any separation of power between Vitiates real body and the Voice in those quotes. By all rights, the Voice is exactly what it says it is in the quotes I provided: the vessel in which Vitiates power and consciousness is stored. I think this is likely the case based on Warrior storyline, since in that storyline, Vitiate has been tricked into journeying (as the Voice) into the Dark Heart and was trapped there by Sel-Makor. Vitiate is actually completely trapped there because of this, he can't do anything with his real body, which surely wouldn't be the case if he was only partially occupying it in terms of mind and power. He needed the new Wrath to come to the Dark Heart and kill him before he could be free, at which point his consciousness and power presumably returned to his body none the worse for wear, since Vitiate is ready to create a new Voice immediately after this.

Yes, the Voice is merely something to allow him to interact with the world without any actual threat to his being, but that doesn't mean that it does not possess his full and total power. SWTORE and the codex do not say the Voice has a portion of his strength. They say it possesses 'his incredible power', definitively.

As to how this is possible without him dying, I think its basically established that Vitiate is more of a spirit than a man. He is doing what Kun did, except while still anchored to his real body and possessing proxies.

Originally posted by Nai
Yes, he gets some kind of power from them (Force energy, life energy) But they are, as well, getting power from him, given that they have a permanent connection to his mind and share his immortality.

I see nothing indicating he's giving them power. That they are connected to his mind and share his longevity doesn't indicate he's giving them power. In fact in SWTORE, Scourges profile says this about them:

"For his dedication, Scourge was rewarded with the title of Emperor's Wrath and an eternally agonizing immortality. But unlike the servants of the Hand, the Wrath was spared the crippling binding process so that he may wield his full might to crush the enemies of the Emperor." - pg. 163

So by all rights they are given immortality through this binding process and not given power by that, but crippled for it.

Originally posted by Nai
"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his insidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

Emphasis mine. The same page notes that the First Son was "the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power."

So, apparently, he leaves some of his power with his children and I doubt, that this part of his power somehow "returns" when they die. Meaning, essentially, that the Consular storyline resulted in a further weakening of Vitiate.

See above on the topic of his Voice. A good deal more power is sunk into the Voice, yet Vitiate was unaffected by its demise. Why should it be different for the Children? In both cases its his very being thats infused in them.

And I don't see how the power wouldn't be regain-able by him. As I said, Vitiates power is 'ever-increasing', so he doesn't weaken himself in the creation of the Children.

Originally posted by Nai
See above. They are imprinted with a part of his power. How else would he use them as "spies" without them even being aware of that?

They aren't aware of it though. The Children are completely separate personalities to their hosts, as seen in the First Son who is a totally different person to Syo Bakarn. SWTORE says that Vititae 'can see and act on a whim' through the Children, since he shares in their thoughts and can easily possess them at any time. Their very being is bound to his, since as ares pointed out on page 6, it isn't just his power that resides in side them, they are "infused with part of his being". I see no reason that such a close connection wouldn't allow Vitiate to draw on their power if he had need to.

Originally posted by Nai
And is the term "power" referring to his force abilities specifically, Neph?

Yes.

"In return, the Emperor draws on his servants (the Hand) strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail." - pg. 163.

Vitiate doesn't ever diminish himself. He only grows stronger. The Vitiate that the Hero fought was more powerful than the one Revan did.

CANON!

Originally posted by Nai
You should differ between actual game-play and storytelling. Just as example: When entering the ship of Darth Angral, T7 tells the HoT that he will go and disable the power reactors for the superweapon, while Kira and the HoT can go deal with Angral. In gameplay terms, the HoT does all the work with one of the two, though.

I though T7 goes and finds computer access in that mission. He tells them to go shut down the reactors and fight Angral. Its not like he was actually fighting with them at the time.

The Hero doesn't do all of the work, even in gameplay, but remember that Kira is the Hero's padawan at the time and for good reason. The Hero does the lions share of the work since shes much more powerful than Kira (Kira directly says she has no hope of ever being as good as you).

Originally posted by Nai
The second thing is, that I find it rather hard to believe - the same goes for the KotoR games - that having an entire crew, the respective hero will just go on a stroll with one or two of his companions in a quest to save the Galaxy. Taking the cutscene from above, it appears to be "canon", that the Hero, Kira and T7 where actively participating in stopping Darth Angral, when T7 is left out of the equation in terms of game play. Couldn't that apply to other situations as well, as long as there is nobody explicitly left behind (e.g. during the confrontation with the Emperor)?

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about T7 fighting Angral with you.

I would disagree. There are missions in the game where the whole crew fights together and that is highlighted as happening. There are missions where its said what the other crew members are doing while you go with one. Furthermore, cutscenes occur and its still just one companion at the time and only your active companion can talk in conversation. Finally, I'm pretty sure there are numerous mentions of purposefully moving in a small team and of others staying on the ship. In this specific case of the Hero of Tython when you assault the Emperor's fortress its explicitly said that you only take one person with you, so I'll take that as meaning that's the Knight's usual modus operandi. If they only take one person with them to fight the freaking Sith Emperor, I doubt they feel the need for the whole team to beat Leeha Narez or whatever.

I mean, with this logic you could argue that the Strike Team took their whole crews with them to fight Revan. Which I highly doubt happened.

Originally posted by Nai
So there might be 2, 3 or 4 companions with the HoT at some of his more grandious moments, where the gameplay allows only one. And even then: One can't outright dismiss another force user / a combat surgeon with heal abilities / an R2-like astromech / an heavy armed combat specialist or a freaking 300 year old Sith Lord.

Except that in her most grandious moments its noted that the Hero only has one companion (Kira for Angral and T7 for Vititate). Other than that.... before the start of Act II, well, I highly doubt T7 contributed much in battle. And I sincerely doubt Doc does either. A medic is only useful out of combat and in he would only be a liability. He only has heal abilities in gameplay remember. Outside of it its all kolto and stuff. So yeah, I'd dismiss them pretty easily. Guy who's name I don't even remember because he's so forgettable probably barely rates as well. He's just a soldier. And his big thing is that he gets a lot of his own troops killed so I doubt he's all that. I don't see any of the non-Force users as being helpful in a fight against anything better than standard Imperial soldiers, really.

Originally posted by Nai
And the third problem with this MMORPG "feats" I have, is that their nature is pretty much unknown. We don't know, whether the HoT struggled against Vitiate or stomped him. We don't know, if he just dueled the Sith Emperor in a "classic" match, as its seen in movies and cutscene, or if he was amped with heavy armor, personal shield, medpacks and stimulants. While this may sound like the "Revan might have defeated Malak with blasters and mines" stuff, in this case the options are far more limited and hence - seemingly - far more probable.

I fail to see how this matters. If the Hero won then they won. If they won through stims then they win through stims here too. Its irrelevant.

Originally posted by Nai
How could you even know that, Neph?
If that power is something, Vitiate stored within his children, even unknown to them, then how could they make a difference between their "own" power and that of Vitiate?

Because I know how the Children work? You yourself posted the quote:

"Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his insidious barbs into their malleable minds. The children were then returned to their cradles, unaware of the hideous power that lay dormant inside them." - SW:ToR Encyclopedia, p.163.

Its the Emperor's power that's inside of them aka darkside power. We see this when Vitiate possesses Kira, she starts glowing with red light since she's tapping into that power. The exact same effect occurs (almost) every time you face a Child in the Consular campaign, when you face the First Son and when you fight Vitiate himself.

Either way, its sealed so that most of them are taken as non-force sensitive. One notes that she had no idea she had this kind of power inside of her (she was a regular soldier before). Theres also the fact that Syo isn't nearly as powerful as the First Son.

Finally, Kira is an unfinished Child, recall.

Originally posted by Nai
And I think you are fairly underestimating Kira. When you go on a companion quest with her on Nar Shadda, it is revealed, that she pretty much exterminated an entire rivaling faction that treated "her people" like slaves on her own. And apparently in a fashion that scared all other people off even years after she left.

Not too shabby, for some almost untrained force using youth, right?

Well she is a force sensitive. And I'm not sure shes almost untrained. She did grow up in a Sith academy. I mean, I'm not saying she's crap, but she is notably out of the HoT's league as well as out of the league of most people you fight. She gets taken captive by some random Sith in Act 1.

I see no reason that it would give him access.

Ultimately, what the HoT fought was only part of Vitiate as other parts of his essence were withinthe Children. And nothing, other than an ambiguous use of the word "shared", suggest that he could draw power from his Children.

He has access to their thoughts and body, why not their power? Vitiate was draining Revan in much the same situation, remember?

The notion that Vitiate would wish to weaken himself in any way by giving his power elsewhere before undergoing the most powerful ritual ever attempted is as ridiculous as thinking Revan>HoT. :trollface:

Originally posted by Nephthys
He has access to their thoughts and body, why not their power? Vitiate was draining Revan in much the same situation, remember?

Because they are different powers. Plenty of Jedi and Sith can use the force to control other characters but haven't shown the ability to drain them.

And we don't know how Vitiate was draining Revan.

Didn't Tempest provide a quote saying that Vitiate drew power from his children in an older debate, before ridiculing him because of yet another reliance on outside source for power?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't Tempest provide a quote saying that Vitiate drew power from his children in an older debate, before ridiculing him because of yet another reliance on outside source for power?

Don't remember. But it was the Hands probably not the Children.

Originally posted by ares834
Because they are different powers. Plenty of Jedi and Sith can use the force to control other characters but haven't shown the ability to drain them.

And we don't know how Vitiate was draining Revan.

You mean like Vivicar possessing Yuon P- oh no wait, he WAS draining her.

He isn't just controlling them, he is connected to them mind, body and spirit.

Its very similar. And all it says is that there's a mental link:

"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell."


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't Tempest provide a quote saying that Vitiate drew power from his children in an older debate, before ridiculing him because of yet another reliance on outside source for power?

I think that was either wrong, or the Hands as ares says.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean like Vivicar possessing Yuon P- oh no wait, he WAS draining her.

He isn't just controlling them, he is connected to them mind, body and spirit.

His essence is within them sure, but that still doesn't mean he was or even could drain them or draw on their power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its very similar. And all it says is that there's a mental link:

"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell."

The quote even refers to the "infernal machines" sustaining the mental link between the two. So no, it's not a very similar situation.

Originally posted by ares834
His essence is within them sure, but that still doesn't mean he was or even could drain them or draw on their power.

Urgh, so stubborn! >:Originally posted by ares834
The quote even refers to the "infernal machines" sustaining the mental link between the two. So no, it's not a very similar situation.

Only in sustaining the link, which is irrelevant with the Children where the link is sustained by his ~essence~ being inside them.

Also

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The notion that Vitiate would wish to weaken himself in any way by giving his power elsewhere before undergoing the most powerful ritual ever attempted is as ridiculous as thinking Revan>HoT. :trollface:

Hell yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Urgh, so stubborn! >:

Only the opinion of the unnamed author...

Also, even if he is growing more and more powerful that could easily refer to his full power which he has dispersed amongst himself and his Children.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only in sustaining the link, which is irrelevant with the Children where the link is sustained by his ~essence~ being inside them.

Except, the mental link between the two is entirely different. One is sustained by machines while the other is created by the Emperor's essence infusing the host.

Originally posted by ares834
Only the opinion of the unnamed author...

Also, even if he is growing more and more powerful that could easily refer to his full power which he has dispersed amongst himself and his Children.

Nope, case closed, I win. You did good, I did better wooooOOOoooooooo!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2106xdhg71rqhfmmo1_250.gif

(also if he really couldn't touch it afterwards, how would it still be part of his full power? )

Also, it hasn't been proven that putting portions of his power in them actually diminishes his personal power permanently. Perhaps he simply puts the power in and then replenishes it like with every other Force use.

Originally posted by ares834
Except, the mental link between the two is entirely different. One is sustained by machines while the other is created by the Emperor's essence infusing the host.

Ok...

In that the mental link with the Children is FAR deeper and stronger. Why would he be able to drain Revan with a link sustained by machines, but not with the Children who have his freakin essence inside them?????

Also, Vitiate still created the link in both cases, so I fail to see how the thing is sustained makes a lick of difference.

Shall I re-post, in the event of a crucial point being missed?

Re-post? Huh?

Lemme re-word that. Shall I quote myself, in the event of a crucial point being missed by Ares the Revanite? Ah **** it:


Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The notion that Vitiate would wish to weaken himself in any way by giving his power elsewhere before undergoing the most powerful ritual ever attempted is as ridiculous as thinking Revan>HoT. :trollface:

Why would I address your point? You seemed to suggest it wasn't ridiculous at all and that Vitiate weakening himself was factual. :trollface:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope, case closed, I win. You did good, I did better wooooOOOoooooooo!

(also if he really couldn't touch it afterwards, how would it still be part of his full power? )

Also, it hasn't been proven that putting portions of his power in them actually diminishes his personal power permanently. Perhaps he simply puts the power in and then replenishes it like with every other Force use.

Since it was part of his soul/essence/whateveryouwannacallit I'm doubtful it would regenerate.

As for him being unable to touch it, it still is technically his power whether he was able to touch it not. After all, it is his "being".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok...

In that the mental link with the Children is FAR deeper and stronger. Why would he be able to drain Revan with a link sustained by machines, but not with the Children who have his freakin essence inside them?????

Also, Vitiate still created the link in both cases, so I fail to see how the thing is sustained makes a lick of difference.

Because if they are they are different links then they can do very different things. Revan's link, for example, allowed him to manipulate Vitiate. Beyond that, Vitiate's link with Revan was noticeable to Revan. By contrast, the Children initially don't even know they are linked with him.

Revan wins by default.
Nothing past KotOR 2 ever happened.
The Sith Emperor doesn't exist.
Revan and Malak fell because the war took its toll on them.
Revan isn't a deadbeat dad that abandons Bastilla.
The Exile isn't a worthless sidekick.

Nah I put the :trollface: in reference to you thinking Revan>=HoT. Answer it now, or perish to my godly guillotine.

Answer what? Why would he weaken himself? Simple, because he thought that getting spies among the Jedi Order was worth it.

But... he didn't. He only used the Children at a point where he no longer cared about the war with the Republic.

Originally posted by ares834
Since it was part of his soul/essence/whateveryouwannacallit I'm doubtful it would regenerate.

As for him being unable to touch it, it still is technically his power whether he was able to touch it not. After all, it is his "being".

~ESSENCES~. And that only applies to his ~essence~, not his power.

He doesn't possess it anymore. It isn't his.

This is pointless. As Supreme says, its ridiculous to think Vitiate would choose to diminish himself just to gain an advantage in a war he doesn't give a shit about. And its stated he didn't diminish himself flat out.

Originally posted by ares834
Because if they are they are different links then they can do very different things. Revan's link, for example, allowed him to manipulate Vitiate. Beyond that, Vitiate's link with Revan was noticeable to Revan. By contrast, the Children initially don't even know they are linked with him.

And you've offered no reason why them being 'different' would change anything. They are similar in the ways that matter. And no, the Children are well aware of being linked to him. Blaesus brags about sharing the mind of the Emperor. It's their unwitting hosts that are unaware. Again, a Child is basically a completely separate personality.

And again, I see no reason Revans link was different to theirs. They "shared" his thoughts, just like Revan did. If they'd wanted to manipulate him, they could theoretically attempt to.

Why would Vitiate ever want to weaken himself? He didn't truly care about the war, he wanted to do his ritual for unlimatehd powah. He wouldn't weaken himself for such a ritual.

In any case, it's the first son who conceals the children.

Originally posted by Nephthys
~ESSENCES~. And that only applies to his ~essence~, not his power.

He doesn't possess it anymore. It isn't his.

Not sure I really see the difference. In Star Wars, the force essence seems to go hand in hand with power. And, the essence is his no matter who it is in.

It's like Sauron and the Ring. Sauron doesn't have access to the ring in LotR but it's still his power within it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is pointless. As Supreme says, its ridiculous to think Vitiate would choose to diminish himself just to gain an advantage in a war he doesn't give a shit about. And its stated he didn't diminish himself flat out.

U mad?

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't even know the true purpose of these Children yet. As the codex states, "Since the Emperor would not go to such elaborate lengths simply to create infiltrators in the Republic, the true purpose behind the children remains a mystery." Unless it's just referring to how he can make them his vessels...

Anyway, clearly he needed them for something very important and deemed it worth it. Ultimately, "if he didn't give a shit about the war" then he wouldn't have made them regardless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you've offered no reason why them being 'different' would change anything. They are similar in the ways that matter. And no, the Children are well aware of being linked to him. Blaesus brags about sharing the mind of the Emperor. It's their unwitting hosts that are unaware. Again, a Child is basically a completely separate personality.

And again, I see no reason Revans link was different to theirs. They "shared" his thoughts, just like Revan did. If they'd wanted to manipulate him, they could theoretically attempt to.

They are different. Heck, I even posted one major difference Revan feels Vitiate in his mind. Many of the hosts for the children don't.