Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

(Thanks Neph :P)

Battle takes place on Yavin IV at the Jedi Temple.

Who takes this?

(I say Luke)

1. Sabers

2. Blasters

3. Force.

4. All-Out

Which Luke?

Luke shits out a black hole

Luke FTW.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which Luke? I changed it :P

Shame on whoever who voted for HOT.

50/50 (I personally rank HoT on par with FOTJ Luke)

HoT had Jedi Master level abilities when he just a padawan. One can only imagine how powerful he would have been at his prime.

Orgus Din had Count Dooku level Force abilities but got punked by Bengel Morr, who in turn got punked by HoT. And these events happened much earlier in HoT's story arc.

Also, Luke's ABH manipulation feat (while extremely impressive) isn't valid for his combat prowess because that is a feat of full concentration without emphasis upon complex matters such as combat. It just shows that how deep Luke was attuned with the Force due to his extraordinary Midichlorian count.

Luke wins.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
50/50 (I personally rank HoT on par with FOTJ Luke)
Did HoT destroy a fortress that reached the clouds?

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Did HoT destroy a fortress that reached the clouds?
Does he need to?

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac291/speedy_43/Memes/MJ_Laughing.gif


Oh my, that's the silliest thing all day...you should read the series actually, it's quite awesome.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t585075.html

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Does he need to? No, how is he on par with Luke?

He's not. ^

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
50/50 (I personally rank HoT on par with FOTJ Luke)

HoT had Jedi Master level abilities when he just a padawan. One can only imagine how powerful he would have been at his prime.

Orgus Din had Count Dooku level Force abilities but got punked by Bengel Morr, who in turn got punked by HoT. And these events happened much earlier in HoT's story arc.

Also, Luke's ABH manipulation feat (while extremely impressive) isn't valid for his combat prowess because that is a feat of full concentration without emphasis upon complex matters such as combat. It just shows that how deep Luke was attuned with the Force due to his extraordinary Midichlorian count.

Orgus Din had Count Dooku level force abilities? Padawan Hero of Tython is solidly above Dooku? HoT on par with FOTJ Luke?http://i48.tinypic.com/ksq4m.jpg

You're a ****ing dumb shit, Fugly gets raped by Revan.

Bite me!

Din isn't on par with Dooku and while Bengal Morr does say that Padawan HoT was the strongest Jedi he's ever met, I still wouldn't put her above Dooku at that point either.

Originally posted by Dolos
You're a ****ing dumb shit, Fugly gets raped by Revan.

Bite me!

Calm down. We're just talking here. Try not to let it get to you.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Orgus Din had Count Dooku level force abilities? Padawan Hero of Tython is solidly above Dooku? HoT on par with FOTJ Luke?http://i48.tinypic.com/ksq4m.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Din isn't on par with Dooku and while Bengal Morr does say that Padawan HoT was the strongest Jedi he's ever met, I still wouldn't put her above Dooku at that point either.



Calm down. We're just talking here. Try not to let it get to you. It's fine, Neph, Dolos is known around the site as the one who ignores "Canon and Reason" :P

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
50/50 (I personally rank HoT on par with FOTJ Luke)

HoT had Jedi Master level abilities when he just a padawan. One can only imagine how powerful he would have been at his prime.

Orgus Din had Count Dooku level Force abilities but got punked by Bengel Morr, who in turn got punked by HoT. And these events happened much earlier in HoT's story arc.

Also, Luke's ABH manipulation feat (while extremely impressive) isn't valid for his combat prowess because that is a feat of full concentration without emphasis upon complex matters such as combat. It just shows that how deep Luke was attuned with the Force due to his extraordinary Midichlorian count. http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/how-about-no-bruce-lee.gif

That's a good gif.

I have to agree. Bruce Lee is like the hardest element known to man.

Can't ever go wrong with this gif.
http://cdn.arwrath.com/1/103948.gif

Nicholas Cage couldn't look natural taking a dump. Worst actor evah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac291/speedy_43/Memes/MJ_Laughing.gif


Oh my, that's the silliest thing all day...you should read the series actually, it's quite awesome.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t585075.html
What so funny about this?

HoT have dealt with "impossible odds" as well (canon declaration) and made it through.

I understand that in case of Luke, we have detailed information of his abilities. However, I won't be surprised by the revelation that HoT had acquired lot of excellent talents as well, if they are canonized.

Heck, Luke's powers diminished near the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas? Hmmmm

Also, with all those (paper tiger) abilities, I wonder why the hell Luke just didn't atomize or brutally put down Lost Tribe Sith? Hmmmm

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
No, how is he on par with Luke?
Haven't you checked his respect thread?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Orgus Din had Count Dooku level force abilities? Padawan Hero of Tython is solidly above Dooku? HoT on par with FOTJ Luke?http://i48.tinypic.com/ksq4m.jpg
Orgus Din in action with his powers:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120523184038/starwars/images/thumb/1/18/BringingDownTheHouse.jpg/500px-BringingDownTheHouse.jpg

The Jedi Master destroyed this portion (additional branch) of the gigantic cave with a gesture from single hand (not is peak strength).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Din isn't on par with Dooku and while Bengal Morr does say that Padawan HoT was the strongest Jedi he's ever met, I still wouldn't put her above Dooku at that point either.
See above

Originally posted by Nephthys
Calm down. We're just talking here. Try not to let it get to you.
Thanks

Originally posted by ares834

Its funny that I get to have the last laugh often.

Originally posted by Dolos
http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/how-about-no-bruce-lee.gif
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/13300000/Anakin-Skywalker-SW-ep-III-Sidious-Revealed-anakin-skywalker-13346732-852-480.jpg

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130210070745/s__/starwars/images/c/c6/Dooku_Scared_to_Death.png

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Haven't you checked his respect thread?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html
Which part indicates HoT being equal to Luke in the Force?

http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Hey+_ee113f7126e4c9c4794def658bf4cf1b.jpg



Anddd....Luke beat Abeloth and a Palpatine who throws around Wormholes casually. -_-

First off, prove that Vitiate was even at full power when Hero beat him. It is my understanding that the Hero beat him when the Dark Lord was the most vulnerable and weak...

Honestly, Luke as of the Black Fleet Crisis was capable of Force feats of this level:
Luke used the Force to crush the rebuilt fortress of Darth Vader to rubble, shattering the building piece by piece and throwing it into the oceans of Coruscant.

By the Yuuzang Vong War, Luke was described as a maelstrom of luminous Force energy. Luke merged with the Force to such a degree that the Jedi Master did not seem to be there, physically or as an individual personality. Luke's control over his lightsaber blade was so great that he was said to might as well have been wielding ten, or twenty lightsabers against the Vong.

Eventually by the time of Fate of the Jedi, Luke fought his way through approximately fifteen Sith until only two remained. By the end of the series, Luke was powerful enough with the help of Krayt to defeat and kill Abeloth.

Putting Hero above Yoda is a stretch enough, putting the Hero above then the equal to the Chosen One is just beyond wrong.

Sounds like Luke had achieved CHIM. Also, writers need to stop pushing up the bar with Skywalker, because it just makes Vader look retroactively like he's not trying and some of it is just stupid. Or hyperbolic. This isn't the first time I've seen Luke feats brought up without specific quotes to verify.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What so funny about this?

HoT have dealt with "impossible odds" as well (canon declaration) and made it through.

I understand that in case of Luke, we have detailed information of his abilities. However, I won't be surprised by the revelation that HoT had acquired lot of excellent talents as well, if they are canonized.

Heck, Luke's powers diminished near the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas? Hmmmm

Also, with all those (paper tiger) abilities, I wonder why the hell Luke just didn't atomize or brutally put down Lost Tribe Sith? Hmmmm


Haven't you checked his respect thread?


Orgus Din in action with his powers:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120523184038/starwars/images/thumb/1/18/BringingDownTheHouse.jpg/500px-BringingDownTheHouse.jpg

The Jedi Master destroyed this portion (additional branch) of the gigantic cave with a gesture from single hand (not is peak strength).


See above


Thanks


Its funny that I get to have the last laugh often.


True, but, that just might be a power scale running. (In TFU, as much as I hate it, Kota tore apart the entire ship with the force and used it as a weapon against Galen Marek, yet Vader states he is not stronger then ANY council member.)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Hey+_ee113f7126e4c9c4794def658bf4cf1b.jpg



Anddd....Luke beat Abeloth and a Palpatine who throws around Wormholes casually. -_-

First off, prove that Vitiate was even at full power when Hero beat him. It is my understanding that the Hero beat him when the Dark Lord was the most vulnerable and weak...

Honestly, Luke as of the Black Fleet Crisis was capable of Force feats of this level:
Luke used the Force to crush the rebuilt fortress of Darth Vader to rubble, shattering the building piece by piece and throwing it into the oceans of Coruscant.

By the Yuuzang Vong War, Luke was described as a maelstrom of luminous Force energy. Luke merged with the Force to such a degree that the Jedi Master did not seem to be there, physically or as an individual personality. Luke's control over his lightsaber blade was so great that he was said to might as well have been wielding ten, or twenty lightsabers against the Vong.

Eventually by the time of Fate of the Jedi, Luke fought his way through approximately fifteen Sith until only two remained. By the end of the series, Luke was powerful enough with the help of Krayt to defeat and kill Abeloth.

Putting Hero above Yoda is a stretch enough, putting the Hero above then the equal to the Chosen One is just beyond wrong.

No, Luke is not an equal to the chosen one, Anakin at Full Potential would be above "The Ones", every single one of them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, writers need to stop pushing up the bar with Skywalker

I don't know if you've been keeping with current events and all but they stopped writing about him, it's over. And the bulk of the feats listed weren't even from FoTJ - the one where he reduces a fortress to debris and scatters them about the ocean was from a trilogy written nearly a decade ago.

He's not making Vader look bad considering Zonakin>>>>>>>>Tyranus. The bulk of Cyborg Vader's feats are in Dark Horse comics.

Originally posted by Dolos
I don't know if you've been keeping with current events and all but they stopped writing about him, it's over. And the bulk of the feats listed weren't even from FoTJ - the one where he reduces a fortress to debris and scatters them about the ocean was from a trilogy written nearly a decade ago. Yup...








......Cause now we got Cade.........





....Yup...

Originally posted by Jmanghan
......Cause now we got Cade......... It's been years since the Legacy arc ended. They finished up with Legacy before they finished up with FoTJ.

What's up with this animosity toward the more relevant SW eras?

Originally posted by Dolos
It's been years since the Legacy arc ended. They finished up with Legacy before they finished up with FoTJ.

What's up with this animosity toward the more relevant SW eras?

I doubt it's the last we see of Cade.

You SWTOR-fanatics say that about everyone.

45 ABY ~FotJ
Did Luke disintegrated some being with light?
"... Luke the half second he needed to turn his palm forward and loose his own blast of golden energy. Marvid swung his hand over to block, and the two streams of opposing energy met. The Columi's flesh melted into smoke and his bones dissolved into ashes, and Luke glimpsed a shadow tumbling away on the shock wave."

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
45 ABY ~FotJ
Did Luke disintegrated some being with light?
"... Luke the half second he needed to turn his palm forward and loose his own blast of golden energy. Marvid swung his hand over to block, and the two streams of opposing energy met. The Columi's flesh melted into smoke and his bones dissolved into ashes, and Luke glimpsed a shadow tumbling away on the shock wave." It would appear so, I won't collect FoTJ - too much Sith spirit, essence transfer, and Force drain. The shit that complicates the simple Force sensitivity and stronger Force=greater warrior that is true for the main Star Wars era.

Originally posted by Dolos
I don't know if you've been keeping with current events and all but they stopped writing about him, it's over. And the bulk of the feats listed weren't even from FoTJ - the one where he reduces a fortress to debris and scatters them about the ocean was from a trilogy written nearly a decade ago.

He's not making Vader look bad considering Zonakin>>>>>>>>Tyranus. The bulk of Cyborg Vader's feats are in Dark Horse comics.

Zonazo Trace is exponentially faster than Yoda, Sidious, or Anakin. If you want to argue PIS as a valid argument for dominance, she or bota Barriss solos. Normal Anakin couldn't overcome Obi-Wan'ss Force push and Dooku ended Obi-wan with a simple gesture. Clearly, things are not that black and white. Instead of arguing plot induced oneness, you should argue consistency. Otherwise, Zonazo Trace beats everyone within an inch of their life.

Also The Chosen One means **** all outside of G-Canon, since the Force is unbalanced many times and went back to being unbalanced less than a generation after RotJ. This term should never be used for anything but G-canon storyline relevence.

Um, do you have any evidence that the force has been unbalanced besides around the movie era? As we see in the Plagueis novel, the reason for the force's imbalance isn't due merely to the existence of the Sith but rather Plags and Palpatine intentionally unbalancing the force through a ritual.

Originally posted by ares834
Um, do you have any evidence that the force has been unbalanced besides around the movie era? As we see in the Plagueis novel, the reason for the force's imbalance isn't due merely to the existence of the Sith but rather Plags and Palpatine intentionally unbalancing the force through a ritual.

The idea of balance of the Force is the dominance of the Light Side and the eradication or extreme minimalization of the Dark Side and/or Sith.

There are powerful Sith and Dark Side users before and after the movie era in EU.Therefore, the balanace is constantly threatened.

That seems pretty straight forward to me.

Except, that's not how the EU portrays balance of the force. Like I said, the Plagueis novel has the Sith use a ritual to unbalance the force they dont do it by merely existing. Furthermore, I can't ever recal any other time in which the Jedi's ability to use the force has been diminished except for the PT era.

So you mean to tell me that when Great Schisms were occurring, Sadow was waging war on the Republic, Kun was killing millions and making the Dark Reaper, the Battle of Ruusan, and Malgus curbstomping jedi on their own ground was a period of Force balance because... two people didn't do a magic woo woo Force ritual to overcome the Force itself using... the Force? Also, Nai argued that their ritual only shifted the Force in the direction of Dark Side dominance and didn't reverse the polarity entirely. This ritual is sometimes taken more blindly than you know, Vitiate the embodiment of Dark Side mastery attacking Jedi. That's clearly a balanced scenario, regardless of interpretation.

Either balance is a complete stalemate or it's the dominance of the Jedi who.symbolize harmony, order and peace. Both interpretations can't be wrong because no ritual.

Also ironic : GL's idea of balance is invalid, but the Chosen One theory which is related to this exact definiton of balance is universally valid.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html
Which part indicates HoT being equal to Luke in the Force?
I don't subscribe to this kind of mentality: Jedi (A) pulled down a 3 story building at one point and Jedi (B) pulled down a 4 story building at one point, so Jedi (A) is likely to be superior.

Holistically, HoT have remarkable accomplishments under his belt just like Luke have (both dealt with seemingly "impossible odds" and made it through). In-fact, HoT's performance on Dromund Kaas is more then enough to put him on level of Luke holistically even though it is possible that Luke may have failed in HoT's shoes (Luke's powers diminished near the position of Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, right?)

Just so you know; Luke doesn't atomizes other Force-users left and right and is not untouchable or without weaknesses. This whole "godlization" of Luke from fans is irritating to be honest.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Hey+_ee113f7126e4c9c4794def658bf4cf1b.jpg
No

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anddd....Luke beat Abeloth and a Palpatine who throws around Wormholes casually. -_-
These pathetic one-liners are misleading BS.

Luke could not defeat these beings by himself. He was aided by his allies to stop these beings.

Luke winning a battle or two against these beings, is not an indication of his superiority over them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
First off, prove that Vitiate was even at full power when Hero beat him. It is my understanding that the Hero beat him when the Dark Lord was the most vulnerable and weak...
I never claimed that Vitiate was in his prime condition during this encounter. Still you need to give HoT some credit for carving his way through lot of impressive opposition to reach the position of Sith Emperor. HoT had acquired such talents that even extremely powerful dark side nexuses didn't diminish his capabilities. On the contrary, Luke's powers diminished on Dromund Kaas near its strongest nexuses? So we have self-explanatory comparison here.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Honestly, Luke as of the Black Fleet Crisis was capable of Force feats of this level:
Luke used the Force to crush the rebuilt fortress of Darth Vader to rubble, shattering the building piece by piece and throwing it into the oceans of Coruscant.
See my Jedi (A) versus Jedi (B) analogy above. In case of HoT, we do not have much content that would explain his capabilities.

HoT had reached a point that he could perform amazing feats without even gestures (e.g. forcibly shut down down a gigantic bridge on Makeb). However, his peak Force abilities are unknown at the moment.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By the Yuuzang Vong War, Luke was described as a maelstrom of luminous Force energy. Luke merged with the Force to such a degree that the Jedi Master did not seem to be there, physically or as an individual personality. Luke's control over his lightsaber blade was so great that he was said to might as well have been wielding ten, or twenty lightsabers against the Vong.
Mandalorians beat the Vong too in places dominated by them. I am sure that they didn't use the Force to do so.

Once Luke adapted to the threat of Vong and learned about their weaknesses, the Vong found him to be unstoppable. Same is true for Jacen. Now do you consider Jacen to be on par with Luke?

Also, this whole "multiple blades wielding" thing is not much of an argument. Look at Darth Thanaton wielding multiple blades:

http://images.tfaw.com/common/salestools/previews/swtor6/swtor6p2.jpg

Of-course, Darth Thanton is/was a superb swordsman but the picture above is self-explanatory.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eventually by the time of Fate of the Jedi, Luke fought his way through approximately fifteen Sith until only two remained.
Some comparison to make:



HoT also have his remarkable performance on Dromund Kaas going in his favor.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By the end of the series, Luke was powerful enough with the help of Krayt to defeat and kill Abeloth.
These two were fighting single avatar of Abeloth. Their were other avatars as well which were downed by other individuals in different parts of the galaxy. When all of those avatars were taken down, Abeloth fell.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Putting Hero above Yoda is a stretch enough, putting the Hero above then the equal to the Chosen One is just beyond wrong.
HoT seems to fit the bill. He represents a prophesized champion of the light too.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Either balance is a complete stalemate or it's the dominance of the Jedi who.symbolize harmony, order and peace. Both interpretations can't be wrong because no ritual.

Or, you know, the balance of the force rests on more metaphycial aspects and not merely on how many Sith/Jedi there currently are.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also ironic : GL's idea of balance is invalid, but the Chosen One theory which is related to this exact definiton of balance is universally valid.

You're the one who constantly is claiming that Lucas's statements aren't binding on the EU. By contrast, the Chosen One originates from the movies and is present within the EU itself.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
True, but, that just might be a power scale running. (In TFU, as much as I hate it, Kota tore apart the entire ship with the force and used it as a weapon against Galen Marek, yet Vader states he is not stronger then ANY council member.)
It is not the first time that Vader have underestimated someone. Also, some Jedi survivors significantly improved with passage of time. Just look at the example of Shaak Ti.

Jedi Master Orgus Din is not some chump. He is among the prominent figures of the Jedi Order. Heck, it is possible that he is more powerful then Count Dooku. If he could pull that cave feat with a normal gesture, I wonder what he could do by exerting with both hands.

Originally posted by ares834
Or, you know, the balance of the force rests on more metaphycial aspects and not merely on how many Sith/Jedi there currently are.
Actually the point is that it is unexpected for two powerful Sith Lords to unbalance the Force by just their presence, specially in a time when Jedi exist in large numbers to counteract such unbalancing. Therefore it makes sense to perform a ritual to disturb the balance of the Force just like Plagueis and Sidious did.

In ancient times, Sith existed in large numbers and experimented a lot with dark side of the Force as well so unbalancing may have occurred from time to time.

I think that Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan have touched on this subject as well.

Originally posted by ares834
You're the one who constantly is claiming that Lucas's statements aren't binding on the EU. By contrast, the Chosen One originates from the movies and is present within the EU itself.
Actually EU is known to branch off from ground realities of G-canon and Mr. Lucas have acknowledged this.

Originally posted by ares834
Or, you know, the balance of the force rests on more metaphycial aspects and not merely on how many Sith/Jedi there currently are.

I didn't mean quantity but more like quality. For example, the Sith Triumvirate nearly drove the Jedi to extinction. During the Mandalorian War, the Jedi Council notes that their ability to sense danger and more specifically the danger behind the Mandos is impaired. We later find out that the Sith Emperor is directly responsible and yet he has seemingly impaired their senses or eluded them, either by virtue of his power or/and the tipping of balance.




1. I've always stated GL canon should be taken in the greater context since EU is "not his world." In this case, if his theory on balance is incorrect, the only other EU concept which can replace it includes neither the Jedi nor the Sith driving the other to the brink. This means when Traya and her goons took out most of the Jedi, the balance was shifted.

2. The Chosen One theory directly impacts EU which is in the era in which it is relevant. In other words, such EU supplements G-canon rather than standing out in contrast, like TOR or TOTJ.

In fact, I'd say there's nothing to contradict the idea of multiple ages of imbalance countered by a chosen hero, whether it's Ulic or Nomi, Revan, the Exile Meetra, or especially the HoT.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I didn't mean quantity but more like quality. For example, the Sith Triumvirate nearly drove the Jedi to extinction. During the Mandalorian War, the Jedi Council notes that their ability to sense danger and more specifically the danger behind the Mandos is impaired. We later find out that the Sith Emperor is directly responsible and yet he has seemingly impaired their senses or eluded them, either by virtue of his power or/and the tipping of balance.

Perhaps, but like I said earlier it still could be a more metaphysical aspect. That is certainly what Mortis and the Plagueis novel suggests.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. I've always stated GL canon should be taken in the greater context since EU is "not his world." In this case, if his theory on balance is incorrect, the only other EU concept which can replace it includes neither the Jedi nor the Sith driving the other to the brink. This means when Traya and her goons took out most of the Jedi, the balance was shifted.

And why must it be one of these two possibilities? Once again, the Plagueis novel has the two Sith creating a fundemental shift in the nature of the force itself, "On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended." That certainly seems to be the cause of the imbalance of the force. Not the lack of Jedi or too much Sith.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. The Chosen One theory directly impacts EU which is in the era in which it is relevant. In other words, such EU supplements G-canon rather than standing out in contrast, like TOR or TOTJ.

In fact, I'd say there's nothing to contradict the idea of multiple ages of imbalance countered by a chosen hero, whether it's Ulic or Nomi, Revan, the Exile Meetra, or especially the HoT.

Except, once again, it has never been mentioned that the force is out of balance in any of these eras or, at the very least, certainly not to the extent of the movie era. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, the Jedi of the PT ability to use the force is diminished presumably because of the imbalance and this is a type of phenomena never seen in any-other place in the EU to my knowledge. Then you have the trouble happening on Mortis and more. Not to mention this is the only era where the Sith get a full victory as they not only wipe out the Jedi Order but become rulers of the galaxy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
For example, the Sith Triumvirate nearly drove the Jedi to extinction. During the Mandalorian War, the Jedi Council notes that their ability to sense danger and more specifically the danger behind the Mandos is impaired. We later find out that the Sith Emperor is directly responsible and yet he has seemingly impaired their senses or eluded them, either by virtue of his power or/and the tipping of balance.

Huh, really?

Uh no it isn't Master Vandar is specifically able to sense that there is something else behind the Mandalorians. That's why the Council told Revan and co. not to fight them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh, really?
He have a point.

The Jedi had remained oblivious to existence of even hundreds of Children of Sith Emperor planted inside the Republic and even the Jedi Order itself. Heck, First Son sat in the Jedi Council itself.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh no it isn't Master Vandar is specifically able to sense that there is something else behind the Mandalorians. That's why the Council told Revan and co. not to fight them.
Can you provide some information?

Master Vandar may have been very good at sensing oddities in the Force but this doesn't proves that he figured out that a Sith Emperor was behind some disturbances and oddities.

Heck, Vandar was taken out by Nihilus on Katarr, if I am not mistaken.

This guy wins in 3 milliseconds.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh no it isn't Master Vandar is specifically able to sense that there is something else behind the Mandalorians. That's why the Council told Revan and co. not to fight them.

The Jedi Council specifically hems and haws because they have no idea what's behind the Mandos and because they don't know they're afraid to move. In retrospect, their indecision is what leads to their demise.

As for Ares, again you're saying that the balance of the Force is only shifted if and only if the following happen:

1. The Jedi are explicitly inhibited somehow in Force use.

2. A ritual is performed by the Sith.

3. Mortis experiences imbalance.

4 If the above are not met, regardless of how many Jedi die or how total the Sith dominate, balance is just peachy.


Also twice now you've assumed the idea of balance is tied to numbers. Is that deliberate?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He have a point.

The Jedi had remained oblivious to existence of even hundreds of Children of Sith Emperor planted inside the Republic and even the Jedi Order itself. Heck, First Son sat in the Jedi Council itself.


Can you provide some information?

Master Vandar may have been very good at sensing oddities in the Force but this doesn't proves that he figured out that a Sith Emperor was behind some disturbances and oddities.

Heck, Vandar was taken out by Nihilus on Katarr, if I am not mistaken.
I think its in KOTOR I when you ask about the Mando wars.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The Jedi Council specifically hems and haws because they have no idea what's behind the Mandos and because they don't know they're afraid to move. In retrospect, their indecision is what leads to their demise.

As for Ares, again you're saying that the balance of the Force is only shifted if and only if the following happen:

1. The Jedi are explicitly inhibited somehow in Force use.

2. A ritual is performed by the Sith.

3. Mortis experiences imbalance.

4 If the above are not met, regardless of how many Jedi die or how total the Sith dominate, balance is just peachy.


Also twice now you've assumed the idea of balance is tied to numbers. Is that deliberate?

Pretty sure its hinted by the Council that the same thing that sent the Mandos was the thing that corrupted Revan and Malak. Or am I just thinking of something else?

Originally posted by Dolos
This guy wins in 3 milliseconds.
That performance is against defenseless mooks.

Seriously, mate, stop underestimating HoT. He has overshadowed even Revan.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia makes it abundantly clear that no one compares to HoT from the Jedi camp. The only other who comes close is Bersen'thor of his time who has some insane capabilities as well.

Yes, HoT did overshadow Revan. Doesn't make him as good as Luke.

Luke>Hero>Revan

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As for Ares, again you're saying that the balance of the Force is only shifted if and only if the following happen:

1. The Jedi are explicitly inhibited somehow in Force use.

2. A ritual is performed by the Sith.

3. Mortis experiences imbalance.

4 If the above are not met, regardless of how many Jedi die or how total the Sith dominate, balance is just peachy.


Also twice now you've assumed the idea of balance is tied to numbers. Is that deliberate?

Nope, I'm saying in the only confirmed era which the force is descibed as imbalanced all those requirements are met. So, even if there are other eras in which the force is imbalanced it does not seem to be nearly to the extant that the movies eras are.

Also, I haven't deliberately tied the imbalance to numbers of Sith.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think its in KOTOR I when you ask about the Mando wars.

Pretty sure its hinted by the Council that the same thing that sent the Mandos was the thing that corrupted Revan and Malak. Or am I just thinking of something else?
Wasn't it common knowledge that Revan and Malak explored the unknown regions in search of Mandalorian survivors and returned as Sith Lords so something wasn't right in the unknown regions?

The Jedi did became suspicious eventually and sent lot of agents to unknown regions to figure out the truth but such efforts were in vain:



I suspect that the quoted events mainly occurred after the fall of Sith Triumvirate, thanks to knowledge of Bastilla Shan.

Prior to Revan's capture by Sith Emperor, Star Forge was commonly suspected for corrupting him and Malak because this Rakatan wonder was known to have corruptive influence of its own, specially on the individuals who would try to use it for their purposes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, HoT did overshadow Revan. Doesn't make him as good as Luke.

Luke>Hero>Revan


Check all of my responses in this thread to figure out why HoT can be a match for Luke.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope, I'm saying in the only confirmed era which the force is descibed as imbalanced all those requirements are met. So, even if there are other eras in which the force is imbalanced it does not seem to be nearly to the extant that the movies eras are.

Also, I haven't deliberately tied the imbalance to numbers of Sith.

So now the goalposts have shifted?

If you asked any Jedi in a time of war with Sith if the Force was in balance, would they agree with you despite the lack of the magical ritual?

I'm merely shifting it in an effort to appease you. But in all honesty, I don't think there is an imbalance in any of those other eras. Frankly, I haven't seen any evidence that there is an imbalance in them since the PT eras imbalance is apparently caused by a ritual and not the existence of the Sith.

I'd agree with ares here. It needed effort to swing the Force out of balance. I don't see it happening just because of worldly factors.

The manner in which Sidious & Plagueis throw the Force out of balance is an excruciatingly dumb element in an otherwise good book.

Hate to ruin your moment...but nothing you said makes HOT a match for Yoda or Palpatine...if ever Luke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Hate to ruin your moment...but nothing you said makes HOT a match for Yoda or Palpatine...if ever Luke.
I am awaiting your response to mine in page 3. Prove me wrong, if you really can.

By the time HoT left Tython, he was already above Count Dooku by virtue of being more powerful then Bengel Morr and Orgus Din at this point. And this is an early phase in his story arc. Now before you foolishly attempt to lowball Orgus Din and Bengel Morr, visit page 2 of this thread to understand how powerful these individuals were. In-fact, Bengel Morr and Darth Angral are counted among the most formidable foes of HoT but he eclipsed them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hero pulling down that 4-story building was one of his few TK feat, and his best. Meanwhile, Luke's already pulling down a 3-story building 30 years before his prime. Like heck, the strength Luke grew in LOTF alone is basically unavailable, mastering around 7 new Force techniques including Force Fold.



Luke's powers were diminished from Abeloth's own nexus, who's power is even much greater then Vitiates. In fact, I think Luke even said that the nexus Abeloth created was much greater then Palpatine's from Byss. Here's a little quote from Luke's time at the Nexus of Doom:

"Everyone responded at once, without question of hesitation, and began to race back toward the gate. The ground began to shake again, yet more violently, and Luke heard the sound of laughter-Abeloth's laughter- following them as they ran for their very lives."




Well to be fair, he tore through 16 Sith in a state near death...



Against either of them he was only aided by one other. Palpatine with Leia, Abeloth with Krayt...regardless, either is impressive, for both Palpatine (DE) and Abeloth are stronger then Vitiate.



So? Revan tore through those Star Forges forces, which at hundreds of Dark Side Adepts and troopers. And we all know Luke>Revan.



Read by counter to that further above ^



And Luke couldn't? lol



No, but Caedus is above the Hero. ^.^



Poor comparison. Luke fought these Sith at a state I belived actually described by Ben as worse then death...he was just in Beyond the Shadows for like a couple months.



Nope, I wouldn't even put the Hero above Mace. And if so, ever so slightly.

Wait, what? When did the Hero ever pull down a 4 story building?

Yeah, wtf?

...I'm just going off of what S_W_LeGenD said...lol idk.

...but he never really suggested that

^^^

Didn't Luke pull down a huge building that was in the upper atmosphere of Kasshyk anyways?

The Merchant for your sig you want to put another bracket before "/img"

I know, I'm just too lazy lol.

He said: I don't subscribe to this kind of mentality: Jedi (A) pulled down a 3 story building at one point and Jedi (B) pulled down a 4 story building at one point, so Jedi (A) is likely to be superior.

but he never suggested the HoT pulled down a 4 story building

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, this whole "multiple blades wielding" thing is not much of an argument. Look at Darth Thanaton wielding multiple blades:

http://images.tfaw.com/common/salestools/previews/swtor6/swtor6p2.jpg

Of-course, Darth Thanton is/was a superb swordsman but the picture above is self-explanatory.

Since he's using a saber staff, he's only produced 19 images from 2 blades or just 9.5 after images per blade.

Luke had twice as many with a single blade.

dat counting ability.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
dat counting ability. Thanaton's blades or Luke's?

Thanaton's

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Since he's using a saber staff, he's only produced 19 images from 2 blades or just 9.5 after images per blade.

Luke had twice as many with a single blade.

Plus he is spinning it helicopter style.... Lol who cares. Grievous can also do that but at what appears to be an even faster speed. And yet, no one uses that as evidence as him being a skilled duelist.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Thanaton's

http://i.imgur.com/HswxYDf.jpg
Should be fixed in this ?
Expanded the image and added numbers to them.

Originally posted by ares834
Plus he is spinning it helicopter style.... Lol who cares. Grievous can also do that but at what appears to be an even faster speed. And yet, no one uses that as evidence as him being a skilled duelist.

I'm personally of the opinion that when Grievous is spinning his lightsabers, thats what the RotS novel is referring to when it says his '20 strike a second' thing.

Anything else is just flat out non-canon imo.

Makes sense. I mean he doesn't even attack Kenobi twenty or so times in their duel IIRC.

Exactly my point.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hero pulling down that 4-story building was one of his few TK feat, and his best. Meanwhile, Luke's already pulling down a 3-story building 30 years before his prime. Like heck, the strength Luke grew in LOTF alone is basically unavailable, mastering around 7 new Force techniques including Force Fold.
Luke is vastly explored in the mythos in the context of his abilities. This does benefits him in "a versus debate" but fans should focus on some holistic ground realities of characters as well.

Holistically, HoT have "performance/accomplishments" on par with that of Luke. In-fact, it is possible that Luke may have failed in HoT's path (hint already provided; see below).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke's powers were diminished from Abeloth's own nexus, who's power is even much greater then Vitiates. In fact, I think Luke even said that the nexus Abeloth created was much greater then Palpatine's from Byss. Here's a little quote from Luke's time at the Nexus of Doom:

"Everyone responded at once, without question of hesitation, and began to race back toward the gate. The ground began to shake again, yet more violently, and Luke heard the sound of laughter-Abeloth's laughter- following them as they ran for their very lives."
What?

Remove that "much" part from your statement.



The nexus that Vitiate left on Nathema was so powerful that it was lethal to all biota. Later on, Vitiate created another nexus on Dromund Kaas with his experiments and power and this nexus was potent enough to diminish the capabilities of practitioners of the light side. When Luke and his companions visited Dromund Kaas, they experienced the negative effects of its nexus.

I have been referring to Luke's experiences on Dromund Kaas.

To learn more about Vitiate, you need to check this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=587136&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well to be fair, he tore through 16 Sith in a state near death...
Lost Tribe Sith aren't exactly powerhouses.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Against either of them he was only aided by one other. Palpatine with Leia, Abeloth with Krayt...regardless, either is impressive, for both Palpatine (DE) and Abeloth are stronger then Vitiate.
Palpatine's superiority is doubtful and Abeloth is reckless and stupid. However, this is another debate.

In case of Palpatine, it took the combined might of 3 Force-users (2 Skywalkers among them) to undermine him temporarily: Luke + Leia + unborn child of Leia. Palpatine actually lost due to instability of his clones.

In case of Abeloth, it wasn't just Luke and Krayt who were responsible for defeating her. She was defeated by combined efforts of many Force-users.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So? Revan tore through those Star Forges forces, which at hundreds of Dark Side Adepts and troopers. And we all know Luke>Revan.
Revan is not "far behind" Luke.

HoT's "quest to defeat Sith Emperor" arguably represents the greatest show of success/accomplishment of any Jedi in the mythos.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Read by counter to that further above ^
Insignificant and you lack in knowledge about TOR era content.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And Luke couldn't? lol
Possible.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, but Caedus is above the Hero. ^.^
BS

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Poor comparison. Luke fought these Sith at a state I belived actually described by Ben as worse then death...he was just in Beyond the Shadows for like a couple months.
See above

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope, I wouldn't even put the Hero above Mace. And if so, ever so slightly.
Like I said, you are deluded and lack in knowledge.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Since he's using a saber staff, he's only produced 19 images from 2 blades or just 9.5 after images per blade.

Luke had twice as many with a single blade.
Well, that event is "early on" in Thanaton's life. It is reasonable to assume that Thanaton had improved later on.

98% of the people on this forum agree that Luke beats the Hero of Tython. Heck bro, the Hero got nothing on Luke. Luke has so many feats and accolades there is no comparison.

What is the Hero's greatest feat? Defeating a weakened and vulnerable Vitiate after his first try failed? What is his best lightsaber combat feat? Or Force feat? Or accolade? Luke is better in every aspect! Lightsaber, Force, Knowledge, Experience, Potential...no debate. Tell me, where is the Hero superior?

Heres just three of Luke's feats...where is the Hero superior?

"Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, was being accused for the millions of deaths the second civil war supplied?"
-Fate of the Jedi: Outcast

"Iin the next instant, Caedus (Darth Caedus) found himself flying accross the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he has simply grabbed Caedus in the force and hurled him five meter into his chair."
-Legacy of the Force: Inferno

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/minohtar/comic.jpg
-Dark Empire

You missed the next page where the At-At explodes.

HoT is not given the credit he deserves here. I think his victory against Vitiate means something even though it wasn't Vitiate's full potential. I mean the likes of Mace Windu would start crying when Vitiate starts to dominate his brain. Its impressive to even survive Dromund Kaas by yourself like that. Luke would take this I have no doubt but HoT is impressive too.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
98% of the people on this forum agree that Luke beats the Hero of Tython. Heck bro, the Hero got nothing on Luke. Luke has so many feats and accolades there is no comparison.
Look! 98% people used to believe that Earth was flat in ancient times. I am not interested in popular opinion but accurate assessment of things.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What is the Hero's greatest feat? Defeating a weakened and vulnerable Vitiate after his first try failed?
So defeating even a vulnerable Vitiate is not a big deal? Seriously?

No one else had the capability to walk out alive from this encounter; all bets were on HoT only.

Also, Luke have never failed, right? He have failed numerous times as well, only to be rescued by fate or allies.

I can point out a Dark Jedi who utterly outclassed Luke (and Luke was very powerful at this point). Heck, Lumiya have beaten him once as well.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What is his best lightsaber combat feat?
HoT have blitzed some skilled warriors who attempted to assassinate him. He also have subdued renowned duelists such as Praven and Scourge when both were at their prime, but spared their lives.

Praven have history of defeating some of finest duelists of the Jedi Order in its history. Scourge have over 1000 (Jedi and Sith) kills under his belt. Do the math.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Or Force feat?
With current information, this kind of comparison is not possible.

However, available evidence reveals that HoT had developed such level of Force abilities that he could pull off impressive feats without gestures (a sign of extraordinary mastery of the Force). To give you an idea, the list of Force-users who could pull off impressive feats without gestures is very small. I recall only Yoda and Vitiate doing impressive things without gestures.

Just as a padawan, HoT had surpassed some powerful Jedi Masters. Imagine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Or accolade?
Like everybody being impressed by him (in an era of powerhouses to be more precise)?

HoT represented a prophesized champion of light. This is next to the hype of Chosen One.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke is better in every aspect! Lightsaber, Force, Knowledge, Experience, Potential...no debate. Tell me, where is the Hero superior?
This is logical fallacy! You are not properly evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of Luke. You are just focusing on his strengths.

Explain to me that why Luke lost his effectiveness on Dromund Kaas?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Heres just three of Luke's feats...where is the Hero superior?

"Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, was being accused for the millions of deaths the second civil war supplied?"
-Fate of the Jedi: Outcast
Revan have better accolade! He is still below HoT.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Iin the next instant, Caedus (Darth Caedus) found himself flying accross the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he has simply grabbed Caedus in the force and hurled him five meter into his chair."
-Legacy of the Force: Inferno
Caedus was caught off guard. Still this puts Luke in the list of Force-user who can pull off impressive feats without gestures.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/minohtar/comic.jpg
-Dark Empire
Galen Marek have matching feat. Willing to consider him on par with Luke?

You think that this feat cannot be matched by someone as powerful as HoT? You are out of your mind then.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The manner in which Sidious & Plagueis throw the Force out of balance is an excruciatingly dumb element in an otherwise good book.

^ Agreed. Luceno is an amazing author, but this part was weak.

Ares, we must agree to disagree.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! 98% people used to believe that Earth was flat in ancient times. I am not interested in popular opinion but accurate assessment of things.


So defeating even a vulnerable Vitiate is not a big deal? Seriously?

No one else had the capability to walk out alive from this encounter; all bets were on HoT only.

Also, Luke have never failed, right? He have failed numerous times as well, only to be rescued by fate or allies.

I can point out a Dark Jedi who utterly outclassed Luke (and Luke was very powerful at this point). Heck, Lumiya have beaten him once as well.


HoT have blitzed some skilled warriors who attempted to assassinate him. He also have subdued renowned duelists such as Praven and Scourge when both were at their prime, but spared their lives.

Praven have history of defeating some of finest duelists of the Jedi Order in its history. Scourge have over 1000 (Jedi and Sith) kills under his belt. Do the math.


With current information, this kind of comparison is not possible.

However, available evidence reveals that HoT had developed such level of Force abilities that he could pull off impressive feats without gestures (a sign of extraordinary mastery of the Force). To give you an idea, the list of Force-users who could pull off impressive feats without gestures is very small. I recall only Yoda and Vitiate doing impressive things without gestures.

Just as a padawan, HoT had surpassed some powerful Jedi Masters. Imagine.


Like everybody being impressed by him (in an era of powerhouses to be more precise)?

HoT represented a prophesized champion of light. This is next to the hype of Chosen One.


This is logical fallacy! You are not properly evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of Luke. You are just focusing on his strengths.

Explain to me that why Luke lost his effectiveness on Dromund Kaas?


Revan have better accolade! He is still below HoT.


Caedus was caught off guard. Still this puts Luke in the list of Force-user who can pull off impressive feats without gestures.


Galen Marek have matching feat. Willing to consider him on par with Luke?

You think that this feat cannot be matched by someone as powerful as HoT? You are out of your mind then.

Galen Marek also defeated Vader, and it wasn't that far from a stomp.
Vader has 80% of Sidious' Power.
Which means Galen Marek has to have at least 85% or higher of Sidious Strength, and since he fought Sidious to a near Draw, we can likely put him at 95%. But Luke is above Sidious currently. I think he'd be able to defeat Sidious, as most people describe Luke's force abilities as God-Like.

That argument might work if characters had universally recognized power levels like DBZ. But they don't. He could be under Vader and still win, like Obi-Wan did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That performance is against defenseless mooks.

Seriously, mate, stop underestimating HoT. He has overshadowed even Revan.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia makes it abundantly clear that no one compares to HoT from the Jedi camp. The only other who comes close is Bersen'thor of his time who has some insane capabilities as well. It doesn't matter if he overshadowed Revan, which he didn't, or even Caedus or Malgus or Bane for that matter - FoTJ Luke overshadowed the likes of Sidious, Gethzerion, and Yoda.

Vitiate's best combat feats are dominating their minds. He was unable to do so in the final fight. He is then no saber feats or force feats other then blasting Revan with lightning. Beating a weakened Vitiate without his mindcontrol and other sorcery powers has not impressed me enough to even put the Hero above Caedus.



Well the only two powerful Jedi who went up against him was Revan and the Hero, don't act like thousands did.



Lumiya beat Luke prior to Dark Empire. Lets not forget then LOTF Luke beat Lumiya so bad their final fight it was embarrassing.



So this puts him Luke level? Luke has speed blitz Vong warriors and Sith apprentices at ease. Luke has also out dueled:

-Palpatine (Second Encounter). With the aid of Leia, Luke outdueled Palpatine and disarmed him...something even Yoda couldn't do.
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130619045551/starwars/images/thumb/7/75/EmperorReborn-PTP2.jpg/250px-EmperorReborn-PTP2.jpg

-Lumiya. Basically annihlated Lumiya on their second encounter, dispite Lumiya still using a lightwhip, a very unfamilar weapon to Luke. Lumiya was personally trained by Vader and the master of Cadeus...not someone to mess with.

"I don't think the three of us are a match for Lumiya..."
-Zekk, to Jaina Solo and Jagged Fel

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071031035005/starwars/images/thumb/7/76/Lukekilllumiya.jpg/250px-Lukekilllumiya.jpg

-Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jamaan, who was stated to be the most powerful Yuuzang Vong warrior.

-Viun Gaalan, this is impressive due to how easily Luke beat him.
Viun accolade: "Galant struck Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert sword master such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn...He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lords's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh. Luke smiled at the man."

...and I'm not even mentioning his fights with Caedus, Vader, or Abeloth...



Then accept that due to facts, Luke is much more powerful...we can't be doing fantasies here bro.



As of ROTJ novel (Or might have been ESB actually), Luke was described as the most powerful Jedi Vader has ever seen, dispite formal training...and Vader killed hundreds in the Purge!



Quotes?



In a fight against the Hero, Luke has no weakness. Unless they are on some Dark Side nexus, Luke will be superior in every area because he is simply the more powerful. What are the Hero's strengths? Where is the Hero superior? Give me some force and combat feats or else it's safe to say Luke wins...


You are going off assumptions, I'm going off facts. You assume the Hero can go on toe with Luke despite no evidence to back up your claim. Spit out some quotes orelse accept Luke is a tier above him.

"Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, was being accused for the millions of deaths the second civil war supplied?"

"I-felt someone very powerful in the Force," she said, her voice slightly shaky and laced with an uncertainty that Vestara had never heard from her. It made her stomach clench. "Strong in the power of the light side." A Jedi...a great Master."

"As Luke and Ben push their Force abilities beyond known limits they draw closer to a nexus of the dark-side..."

"Luke Skywalker is still the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. I think we should assume he has a plan."

"...but rather a fight with one of the most powerful Jedi in history"

...I have litterly like a hundred accolades, and I only used the ones really from Fate of the Jedi. I didn't even start with Legacy of the Force or New Jedi Order yet. While yet the Hero's best are calling him the best padawan...

...I assume your withdraw on the debate comes with the realization that I'm correct.

Or people have lives. That happens too.

Jmang, Galen barely beat a non-prime Vader as per the novel, which is superior to the gameplay in terms of canon.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Or people have lives. That happens too.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/1136159/that-s-impossible-o.gif

I admit, I lol'd.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Jmang, Galen barely beat a non-prime Vader as per the novel, which is superior to the gameplay in terms of canon. Actually... If the "Revan" Novel had killed off Meetra, but she was still alive (This a what-if, calm down, people) in SWTOR, the SWTOR game would be above it in Canon.

Also, The TFU game is G-Canon (well maybe not Direct G-canon, because it happens to be a game), since it came directly from George Lucas itself while the Novel came from Sean Williams.

So, George Lucas = TFU Game

Sean Williams = TFU Novel

Even if he told Williams to write the book, he directly oversaw the TFU Game.

TFU Unleashed isnt G-canon G-canon is only the movies and the novels that correspond with them.

Ex: Revenge of the Sith Novel= G-Canon
The Old Republic MMO: C-Canon

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
TFU Unleashed isnt G-canon G-canon is only the movies and the novels that correspond with them.

Ex: Revenge of the Sith Novel= G-Canon
The Old Republic MMO: C-Canon

RotS novelization is based on an older version of the script. So when it explicitly contradicts what we see in the film, it is C-canon; anything verifiably from GL's mouth in the work or that coincides with what the film shows is G-canon. This is explained in the Wookiepedia canon page.

And TFU is c-canon as well. G-canon extends to films, radio plays based on films, aspects of the novelizations and official reference guides that come from GL directly. If you applied a more liberal sense of G-canon, Marka Ragnos' tomb is G-canon since GL specifically asked for its appearance to be altered to fit his tastes.

I am aware, for example the Fight in the chancellor's office in the book was C-canon (or actually maybe even non canon)...but other parts of the book is G-canon. Bad example on my part.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I am aware, for example the Fight in the chancellor's office in the book was C-canon (or actually maybe even non canon)...but other parts of the book is G-canon. Bad example on my part.

No worries. And yes, it has some non-canon elements, like Kit Fisto's head on the desk.

They should have included that part atleast...I'm annoyed they killed off such powerful Jedi Masters so quickly.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Or people have lives. That happens too.
Exactly...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
TFU Unleashed isnt G-canon G-canon is only the movies and the novels that correspond with them.

Ex: Revenge of the Sith Novel= G-Canon
The Old Republic MMO: C-Canon

As I said, probably below G-Canon, but it was still overseen by George Lucas himself, and the Novel of TFU wasn't. TFU was published by LucasArts. And the Novel was published by... Who? Oh yes. SEAN WILLIAMS. The TFU game is higher Canon then the TFU Novel.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
RotS novelization is based on an older version of the script. So when it explicitly contradicts what we see in the film, it is C-canon; anything verifiably from GL's mouth in the work or that coincides with what the film shows is G-canon. This is explained in the Wookiepedia canon page.

And TFU is c-canon as well. G-canon extends to films, radio plays based on films, aspects of the novelizations and official reference guides that come from GL directly. If you applied a more liberal sense of G-canon, Marka Ragnos' tomb is G-canon since GL specifically asked for its appearance to be altered to fit his tastes. I get what you're saying, like... The Mortis Trilogy was created directly by Lucas and fitted to his liking, so that makes it G-Canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vitiate's best combat feats are dominating their minds. He was unable to do so in the final fight.
Vitiate's best combat feats are his "council purging" actions. Yes, he once exterminated an entire council by himself.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He is then no saber feats or force feats other then blasting Revan with lightning.


Vitiate is so powerful and well-versed in the ways of the Force that he doesn't needs a lightsaber to defeat or punk potential adversaries. He have felled expert swordsmen without difficulty.

As far as Force feats are concerned:-

- At the age of 10, Vitiate punked the most powerful Sith Lord of his homeworld by severing his connection with the Force (a dark variant of Sever Force talent) and destroying his mind with his telepathic abilities.

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of telepathic abilities; he could instill fear, mentally dominate, produce illusions/apparitions, possess and even destroy the minds of his targets. He went as far as to create "alternate dark personas" of thousands of other Force-users, triggering them from time to time to serve him (Children).

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of Force Drain talent; he could consume life-forces of other beings from even light-year distances. He siphoned energies of countless individuals to fuel his power.

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of unleashing (offensive) energies in purest forms of the dark side; he unleashed an FLS of this caliber on Revan (This FLS would have eaten Revan alive, if T3-M4 had not stopped Vitiate on time). He could also unleash Force blasts of purest dark side energies with bare hands.

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of telekinetic applications; he could perform telekinetic actions without gestures (nearly atomized T3-M4; prevented Scourge from striking Revan with his lightsaber; collapsed structures). Furthermore, he could conjure up Force waves, break bones, shatter organs and even atomize biota with his telekinetic abilities.

- Vitiate once destroyed an entire Dark Council with a mysterious application; this application swiftly killed/incapacitated all Dark Council members simultaneously.

- Vitiate acquired highest degree of immortality; could shift his essence from body to body (Essence Transfer) and permanently prolonged the existence of his original body, preventing its decay and destruction (Midichlorian manipulation). Vitiate was close to acquiring omnipotence when he was stopped.

I am sure that Vitiate acquired lot of other talents; he even altered the atmosphere and environment of Dromund Kaas on planetary scale.

---

Kindly arrange an appointment with a doctor to find out if you have a functioning brain.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beating a weakened Vitiate without his mindcontrol and other sorcery powers has not impressed me enough to even put the Hero above Caedus.
You need to realize that Vitiate was incredibly powerful and dangerous even in his weakened condition. And HoT was the only Jedi in the galaxy who stood a chance against him. This duel have been described as of "apocalyptic" proportions.

In addition, this duel took place in a region where Jedi powers would typically flop (Dark Temple) but HoT had acquired special talents to cope with powerful dark side nexuses, his powers would not diminish in such places. Even Luke does not have this capability.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well the only two powerful Jedi who went up against him was Revan and the Hero, don't act like thousands did.


You forgot Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz (All of whom are counted among the most powerful Jedi of the Order).

Vitiate have killed/punked so many Jedi that even the mighty Satele Shan was reluctant to confront him.

Furthermore, Vitiate have killed/punked many Sith as well (including Dark Council members).

Vitiate had overshadowed millions of Force-users, genius.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lumiya beat Luke prior to Dark Empire. Lets not forget then LOTF Luke beat Lumiya so bad their final fight it was embarrassing.
Lumiya was no match for Luke even during DE era. However, her initial victory reveals that how effective element of surprise can be in combat situations; she outdueled Luke with her lightwhip based martial skills which was an alien experience for Luke. Later on, Luke further improved his own dueling prowess and then punked her in a rematch.

Lesson gained from this event is that Luke doesn't have an automatic counter to all kinds of combat related talents and Force abilities. He learns from experience/exposure just like everybody else and is not unstoppable.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So this puts him Luke level? Luke has speed blitz Vong warriors and Sith apprentices at ease.
Good! HoT and Luke are even in this case.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke has also out dueled:

-Palpatine (Second Encounter). With the aid of Leia, Luke outdueled Palpatine and disarmed him...something even Yoda couldn't do.
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130619045551/starwars/images/thumb/7/75/EmperorReborn-PTP2.jpg/250px-EmperorReborn-PTP2.jpg
Yes, one of Luke's finest moments.

However, it is not even clear at that moment that what level of skill and power would be required to push HoT to his limits in martial aspects of combat since a Sith Lord with over a thousand (Jedi and Sith) kills under his belt was not able to.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
-Lumiya. Basically annihlated Lumiya on their second encounter, dispite Lumiya still using a lightwhip, a very unfamilar weapon to Luke. Lumiya was personally trained by Vader and the master of Cadeus...not someone to mess with.

"I don't think the three of us are a match for Lumiya..."
-Zekk, to Jaina Solo and Jagged Fel
Lumiya was/is a talented duelist but nothing to boast about.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071031035005/starwars/images/thumb/7/76/Lukekilllumiya.jpg/250px-Lukekilllumiya.jpg

-Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jamaan, who was stated to be the most powerful Yuuzang Vong warrior.
Great!

So exactly how powerful is this overlord?

HoT have held his own against/defeated avatars of some extremely powerful entities (most notably an ancient Rakatan entity and Sel Makor).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
-Viun Gaalan, this is impressive due to how easily Luke beat him.
Viun accolade: "Galant struck Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert sword master such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn...He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lords's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh. Luke smiled at the man."
HoT have suddued some "expert" swordsmen as well; expert swordsmen with impressive feats/accomplishments to be more precise and not just hype.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
...and I'm not even mentioning his fights with Caedus, Vader, or Abeloth...
Abeloth part have been covered already. HoT's performances against Sel Makor might be comparable.

HoT have also defeated following:

- Bengel Morr (survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated a powerful and battle-hardened Jedi Master, Orgus Din; became a threat to the entire Jedi Order on Tython)

- Darth Angral (boss of Darth Malgus; killed Orgus Din)

- Tol Braga (One of the most powerful Jedi of the Order; fought a Dark Council member for 3 days and redeemed him (unparalleled feat in its own right))

- Lord Fulminiss (a legendary Sith Sorcerer who have history of destroying entire cities with preparation)

- Imperial Guard (an entire contingent to be accurate (a lone Imperial Guard individual is a match for a Jedi); also cut down Guardsman Lessicar who also have multiple Jedi and Sith kills under his belt)

The entire list of notable victories of HoT is very big. On Aldeeran, HoT fought a Sith Lord who had programmed a superweapon of sorts to aid him. This weapon could kill any living being with a single blow. Yet, HoT not just cut down this Sith Lord but also evaded the firepower of the weapon and eventually disabled it.

Also the Hero of Tython has 'unmatched lightsaber prowess' and 'unrivaled reflexes'.

estahuh

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He is then no saber feats or force feats other then blasting Revan with lightning.

What about easily overpowering 4 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time?

And he once beat the shit out of some Executioner guy who betrayed him.

Yeah, Vitiate is one of the most powerful individuals in the mythos and saying the opposite isn't smart, no matter how much one despises his character.

I made this thread, and I have to say... Luke takes this, but DEFINITELY not easily, I doubt I'd put HoT on Yoda's level.

I think HoT is almost equal to Yoda. I'd say he's above Dooku and Windu for sure.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, Vitiate is one of the most powerful individuals in the mythos and saying the opposite isn't smart, no matter how much one despises his character.

Where'd you rank HoT?

Originally posted by Petrus
Where'd you rank HoT?

Pretty high. I doubt HoT had in the time of their class storyline a wealth of esoteric knowledge like Yoda or Dooku, but in terms of talent and raw power they are well up there.

I think that if HoT had access to the same amount of knowledge Sidious and/or Yoda had, he'd surpass at least RotS Yoda. But as it is, he doesn't.

In a duel, I'd say HoT takes Dooku and it would be a very, very close call against Yoda and/or Sidious.

Arguably, if Anakin Skywalker had access to Yoda's wealth of knowledge and didn't get maimed and go Dark Side in the process, he'd be stronger than Yoda. Qui-Gon indicates this in TPM.

I get what you're saying, but can they truly be compared? I'm not going as far as suggesting HoT would be as powerful as full-potential Anakin with access to that knowledge, but I dare say he'd challenge Yoda and Sidious.

The following are most impressive Jedi:

1. Hero of Tython
2. Revan
3. Bersen'thor (no. 3)
4. Luke Skywalker
5. Yoda
6. Satele Shan
7. Mace Windu

Honorable mentions:

1. Aryn Leener
2. Jacen Solo
3. Kao Cen Darach
4. Jaric Kaedan
5. Syo Bakarn

Ranking wise:-

TIER 1:

Hero of Tython; Luke Skywalker; Yoda; Bersen'thor (no. 3)

TIER 2:

Mace Windu; Revan; Satele Shan

TIER 3:

Aryn Leener; Jaric Kaedan; Syo Bakarn

TIER 4:

Kao Cen Darach; Jacen Solo

So this is your supporting argument, one accolade for the Knight? Honestly, Mace has better quotes then dat. Also, hype is not always power. The Exile got a ton of hype, I don't see you putting her up their.


Seen in generations...they don't even give him the benefit of the doubt and say centuries. lol.


Becoming a expert duelist? They don't even give him the full title. And Scourge was a expert duelist, yet he got pretty owned by Nyriss.


This doesn't put him above average Jedi Knight level.


Only decades? :/


Wow! An impressive accolade. Finally! However Luke has alot better ones then this...


Not even an accolade.


Impressive? That's really all the Sith's giving him?


Umm? Not even a accolade.


Impressed. But Scourge gave better accolades to Revan's name.


Very similar to many Mace accolades, impressive.


Luke has similar accoaldes.

"I-felt someone very powerful in the Force," she said, her voice slightly shaky and laced with an uncertainty that Vestara had never heard from her. It made her stomach clench. "Strong in the power of the light side." A Jedi...a great Master."

" A short time ago, many of us felt a very strong rippling in the Force. We sensed a presence that we immediately realized would be a threat to us."


Doesn't put him top tier. Anakin has quotes like this.


I swear one of the Jedi in KOTOR said basically the same thing to Revan.


You have yet to prove where the Hero is superior!


He got the accolade "legendary" from a Sith apprentice..and don't mean to ruin your dreams bro, but Obi-Wan got that same title.


Unlogical since it's not based of fact, just favoritism and hope.


To start off with, the Hero's best accolades state the best in like several generations...Luke's is one of the best in HISTORY, applying to thousands upon thousands of more Jedi including the Clone Wars.

And secondly, unless you can prove with evidence they are equal, it's honestly all opinion. Luke is getting similar accolades the Hero as even before ROTJ, imagine his strength beyond that. Wait-don't imagine, because we already know, and it's immense!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Seen in generations...they don't even give him the benefit of the doubt and say centuries. lol.


Becoming a expert duelist? They don't even give him the full title. And Scourge was a expert duelist, yet he got pretty owned by Nyriss.


This doesn't put him above average Jedi Knight level.


Only decades? :/


Wow! An impressive accolade. Finally! However Luke has alot better ones then this...


Not even an accolade.

All of these accolades are from the first planet (out of twelve). This is literally right at the start of the game, when the Hero is still a padawan. I included them as they are indicative of how good the Hero is, even are a neophyte.

Like for instance, saying the Knight is the strongest he's seen in generations while standing in the same room as Satele Shan is impressive considering the Knight is still a padawan at this point. Just so for being called the strongest Morr had ever felt. Its impressive because the Hero was still being called this as a padawan right at the start of her career. The Hero was an expert duelist as a padawan. The Hero defeated a Sith + 3 Flesh Raiders armed only with a training saber as a padawan. Orgus Din, a Jedi Council member, states that he has nothing left to teach the Hero almost literally as soon as he meets her. Thats pretty impressive.

Originally posted by Petrus
I get what you're saying, but can they truly be compared? I'm not going as far as suggesting HoT would be as powerful as full-potential Anakin with access to that knowledge, but I dare say he'd challenge Yoda and Sidious.

I don't know why HoT, who effectively battled a Force titan unlike anything we've ever seen, should be considered to not be a peer of Anakin. If anything, HoT's record is far better than Anakin's, and both were likely about the same age at their measurable peaks.

Sometimes the Chosen One theory is used to make Anakin "I've never done anything approaching Nihilus or Vitiate or even Yoda" on this whole other playing field that no one could ascend to, and in an EU context just sounds odd.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't know why HoT, who effectively battled a Force titan unlike anything we've ever seen, should be considered to not be a peer of Anakin. If anything, HoT's record is far better than Anakin's, and both were likely about the same age at their measurable peaks.

Sometimes the Chosen One theory is used to make Anakin "I've never done anything approaching Nihilus or Vitiate or even Yoda" on this whole other playing field that no one could ascend to, and in an EU context just sounds odd.

It does sound odd, but it's the movies. EU and the movies can't really be compared in some aspects, and people tend to believe the characters from the movies are the 'best' and 'most powerful' due to bias and the quote from GL saying it's 'the golden age of the Jedi', but other than those I see no reason why characters from other eras wouldn't be comparable in terms of power and skill with characters from the PT and OT. The only reason I rank Sidious so highly is because it's actually demonstrated with feats and accolades, not because he appears in the movies. And I do rank the HoT very highly. After some thought, I decided to put him Yoda level in my book.

Originally posted by Petrus
It does sound odd, but it's the movies. EU and the movies can't really be compared in some aspects, and people tend to believe the characters from the movies are the 'best' and 'most powerful' due to bias and the quote from GL saying it's 'the golden age of the Jedi', but other than those I see no reason why characters from other eras wouldn't be comparable in terms of power and skill with characters from the PT and OT. The only reason I rank Sidious so highly is because it's actually demonstrated with feats and accolades, not because he appears in the movies. And I do rank the HoT very highly. After some thought, I decided to put him Yoda level in my book.

It's not the that movie characters are unworthy of respect or just weaklings to be slaughtered like cattle; they just suffer from an overexposure of lesser showings, although stuff like TFU and the CW series go in the opposite direction.

DE set a bad trend, and the lack of direction from GL post-OT basically left the door open for some over the top Force feats that seem really jarring with the arrival of the PT much later. This is something I harp on the creator for doing, because no ground rules were really established to prevent us from having these huge inconsistencies. OT has as it's greatest Force feats the Emperor's Sith Lightning and Yoda levitating an X-Wing out of a Dagobah swamp. EU comes around, we have black magic, dudes using ships to chuck star cores, etc. etc. Luke has become rather flanderized in terms of powers, but I can't speak to his development. I thought the idea of him being dominated and forced to accept the Dark Side in DE was just stupid after RotJ.

I agree. Luke turning to the dark side temporarily was absolute stupidity from the writer's part. After RotJ, it was pretty much established that Luke wasn't like his father at all, and that he would never fall.

Originally posted by Petrus
I agree. Luke turning to the dark side temporarily was absolute stupidity from the writer's part. After RotJ, it was pretty much established that Luke wasn't like his father at all, and that he would never fall.

Luke is a much better character than his father, even when he's whining about power converters. But in the OT, the real man was Han Solo.

Considering Scourge was willing to betray Revan and the Exile, purely because he saw the HoT defeating the Emperor, after witnessing some of the Emperor's power first-hand, kind of shows how powerful the HoT has to be. For Scourge to betray his allies just so he could wait for that to happen, shows to the kind of skill the HoT has under their belt.

At least that's how that whole thing seems to me.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Considering Scourge was willing to betray Revan and the Exile, purely because he saw the HoT defeating the Emperor, after witnessing some of the Emperor's power first-hand, kind of shows how powerful the HoT has to be. For Scourge to betray his allies just so he could wait for that to happen, shows to the kind of skill the HoT has under their belt.

At least that's how that whole thing seems to me.
Nicely put.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also, with all those (paper tiger) abilities, I wonder why the hell Luke just didn't atomize or brutally put down Lost Tribe Sith?

Uh, beg your pardon but you know Luke is a Jedi? Atomising people, even enemies, or brutally putting them down, is something Jedi don't do. They have too much respect for the Force to do stuff like that.

Anyway, I'll say Luke wins this one but it's a VERY tough fight that ends with him barely alive and needing an immediate dunk in a bacta tank.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Mace's era doesn't have that much quality. Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Bariss were the only standouts apart from Mace. The rest were meh.






I'm sorry this is hilarious. The SWTOR era's Jedi are absolutely abhorred. Satele's predecessor got killed by a ****ing bounty hunter and even Satele Shan has feats that are Kit Fisto level. Her best feat is defeating a not at peak level Darth Malgus with help from a trooper.

The only Jedi from that era that are worth a damn are Satele, Barsen'thor, HoT and Jaric Kaedan.

Mace's era has Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan sure. But then Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto are all hailed as some of the greatest blademasters in the Order's 20,000 year history NOT just in generations. Also Shaak Ti most certainly stands out. Subverting a Dark Side nexus and making it her personal playground is a feat and a half.

You do realize that in novels Satele has Force feats bordering on Yoda levels right? Or are you making this judgment solely from some Youtube trailers?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You do realize that in novels Satele has Force feats bordering on Yoda levels right? Or are you making this judgment solely from some Youtube trailers?

Even then, what she does in the trailers is damn impressive..

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'm sorry this is hilarious. The SWTOR era's Jedi are absolutely abhorred. Satele's predecessor got killed by a ****ing bounty hunter and even Satele Shan has feats that are Kit Fisto level. Her best feat is defeating a not at peak level Darth Malgus with help from a trooper.
Which predecessor? Bounty Hunters can be extremely dangerous, if they are at the top their game with elite gear, combat skills and tactical brilliance.

Analogy: Jango Fett held his own against notable Jedi such as Obi-Wan and even Mace Windu. He lost to Windu because he got overrun by an animal during the heat of battle while he was too preoccupied with Windu to concentrate on other potential threats.

The Bounty Hunter featured in SWTOR story is a class of his own in the mythos. He is that damn good.

---

Satele Shan on Kit Fisto level? You've got to be f***k*** kidding me.

Also, send the infamous B-Team (Fisto, Kolar and Tinn) to confront Darth Malgus and watch this team getting dismantled without much fight.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The only Jedi from that era that are worth a damn are Satele, Barsen'thor, HoT and Jaric Kaedan.
Really?

Here is a list of impressive Jedi that you are overlooking:

- Tol Braga
- Bengel Morr
- Aryn Leener
- Jun Seros
- Nghani Zho
- Usma
- Syo Bakarn
- Kao Cen Darach
- Ven Zallow
- Orgus Din
- Leeha Narez
- Kellian Jarro
- Warren Sedoru

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Mace's era has Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan sure. But then Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto are all hailed as some of the greatest blademasters in the Order's 20,000 year history NOT just in generations. Also Shaak Ti most certainly stands out. Subverting a Dark Side nexus and making it her personal playground is a feat and a half.
Shaak Ti demonstrated her true potential during OT era when Jedi Order did not existed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Which predecessor? Bounty Hunters can be extremely dangerous, if they are at the top their game with elite gear, combat skills and tactical brilliance.

Analogy: Jango Fett held his own against notable Jedi such as Obi-Wan and even Mace Windu. He lost to Windu because he got overrun by an animal during the heat of battle while he was too preoccupied with Windu to concentrate on other potential threats.

The Bounty Hunter featured in SWTOR story is a class of his own in the mythos. He is that damn good.

---

Satele Shan on Kit Fisto level? You've got to be f***k*** kidding me.

Also, send the infamous B-Team (Fisto, Kolar and Tinn) to confront Darth Malgus and watch this team getting dismantled without much fight.


Really?

Here is a list of impressive Jedi that you are overlooking:

- Tol Braga
- Bengel Morr
- Aryn Leener
- Jun Seros
- Nghani Zho
- Usma
- Syo Bakarn
- Kao Cen Darach
- Ven Zallow
- Orgus Din
- Leeha Narez
- Kellian Jarro
- Warren Sedoru


Shaak Ti demonstrated her true potential during OT era when Jedi Order did not existed.

I agree that TOR Jedi were very impressive, and that the Champion is on a whole other level. But I don't think the B-team would be completely annihilated against Malgus ala Sidious. Sidious > Malgus. Maybe they would ultimately lose, but I don't think it'd be easy for him.

Pretty sure if TOR writers scripted a fight with Malgus and the trio, they'd do better, but simply because the writers have better choreography going for them. Malgus during the sack of the Jedi Temple cut through a few Jedi and his stomp of elite Ven was rather quick. I doubt he'd do a Psycho Crusher and then telegraph a simple stab while they cluster in a doorway, frozen as if Exar Kun had hold of them like in the movie.

Originally posted by Petrus
I agree that TOR Jedi were very impressive, and that the Champion is on a whole other level. But I don't think the B-team would be completely annihilated against Malgus ala Sidious. Sidious > Malgus. Maybe they would ultimately lose, but I don't think it'd be easy for him.
Satele Shan is better then Fisto, Tinn and Kolar put together.

The latter 3 Jedi may not be outright fodder for Malgus, in the form of a Jedi Strike Team, but this team won't push him much either and would likely end up loosing without much fight.

Malgus, in his worst condition, destroyed 2 Jedi in a confrontation (one was a powerhouse). Malgus is this damn good, even if he is not Sidious.

Fisto, Tinn and Kolar are actually good swodrsmen, contrary to popular belief. Satele is good, but she won't beat those three together. In fact, I doubt anyone other than Sidious and Force-users on his level would be able to blitz them. Malgus is a powerhouse, but he's not on Sidious' level and he won't be cruising through those three. They'd give him a fight, at least.

Which Jedi powerhouse are you refering to? Kao?

Originally posted by Petrus
Fisto, Tinn and Kolar are actually good swodrsmen, contrary to popular belief. Satele is good, but she won't beat those three together.
Shan WOULD beat them even if put together. She is stated to be unbelievably fast and overwhelming combatant and her Force abilities are too much for the infamous B-Team.

Originally posted by Petrus
In fact, I doubt anyone other than Sidious and Force-users on his level would be able to blitz them.
I disagree.

Originally posted by Petrus
Malgus is a powerhouse, but he's not on Sidious' level and he won't be cruising through those three. They'd give him a fight, at least.

Which Jedi powerhouse are you refering to? Kao?
An insignificant fight.

And no! That Jedi collapsed two buildings around the position of Malgus with the aim to crush him beneath the rubble.

Petrus, you're kind of moving the goalposts here. If by "blitz" you mean kill the Jedi as they do nothing, then it's doubtful this would be replicated outside of the movies. In a hypothetical versus match no one would ever argue "X wins because Y just sits there". Sidious' blitz was slower than me chucking a paper airplane across the room, so it's really being taken out of context. The Jedi, if they had chosen to move, were clusterd together. Only Mace was smart enough or coherent enough to back up.

Malgus is a ridiculous powerhouse and has good showings to his name per the respect thread. The trio, one of which is on par with AotC Obi-Wan, would not put up much of a fight.

I don't mean blitz as in the movies, I know that'd be impossible to replicate as it was complete and utter stupidity and it made those three look like a pile of shit when they weren't really.

All I'm saying is Malgus would not be able to defeat those three as easily as Sidious. Blitz or not. Malgus would win, I agree. But they would at least give him something. It wouldn't be pure ownage. Maybe not much of a fight, but a fight at least. These aren't pushovers. If you put them and Malgus with, say, three meters of separation and the battle takes place in an open area rather than closed-quarters with barely enough space to move and them all squashed together as if they were all in line for Sidious' saber to cut through them, it would make a difference.

^^^

Well, this is fine assessment.

lol

Wut?

Tears are streaming down my chin as I am reading these posts.

Of sadness? Or laughter? What's your take on this?

Both combined.

Don't mind Intrepid. He gets overcome by fits of depraved laughter whenever he's faced with logic and reason.

Link him to FOX and he'll settle down.