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Having gotten his butt kicked by the Hero of Tython, Revan tries to console himself by thinking that hey, he's still the second most powerful Jedi ever, right? Only for the mighty Barsen'thor to tap him on the shoulder and kind of shake his/her head pityingly. Enraged, Revan challenges them to a fight!

Barsen'thor Respect thread.

Revan Respect thread.

The fight takes place on Belsavis. Cuz I like Belsavis.

Republic prisoners juiced on stims and tortured gang rape both. /thread.

Revan kills another TOR hero.

How do you figure?

50/50, IMO

See, I say the Barsen'thor fighting through a capital ship and then defeating an ancient Sith Lord amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters, all while weakened, to be above what Revan's capable of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
See, I say the Barsen'thor fighting through a capital ship and then defeating an ancient Sith Lord amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters, all while weakened, to be above what Revan's capable of.
That is certainly an insane accomplishment. This particular Barsen'thor was undoubtedly remarkably gifted in the use of the Force. This is why I believe that she is among the "select few" who can defeat Revan.

However, let us not underestimate Revan. His performance on Star Forge is comparable or close.

I think that Revan is part of the "elite camp" of the mythos because of his unique grasp of the ways of the Force. Mr. Drew mentioned to me once that he envisioned Revan to be so talented in the ways of the Force that he could develop new Force powers. This can be true canonically since Revan mastered both the light and dark aspects of the Force and could figure out things that were beyond the understanding of many with such a command.

However, with Revan, it is not just about power or understanding of the ways of the Force. He have his ambiguity, unorthodoxy and tactical brilliance to complement his effectiveness.

Originally posted by Nephthys
See, I say the Barsen'thor fighting through a capital ship and then defeating an ancient Sith Lord amped by the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters, all while weakened, to be above what Revan's capable of.

Nah, Revan's utterly owning of Nyriss is even more impressive. Nyriss is, after all, capable of incredibly potent lightning and capable of humiliating the Exile.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, let us not underestimate Revan. His performance on Star Forge is comparable or close.

I disagree. Malak was powerful and everything, but he wasn't amped to the same degree that Vivicar was. And Vivicar/Morrhage at least rivals Malak in power by himself.

Also Revan had better support than the Consular did (who at the time only had Qyzen and Theran) in the form of Jolee, Juhani, Canderous, Carth, HK etc. And the Barsen'thor was greatly weakened right from the start.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, with Revan, it is not just about power or understanding of the ways of the Force. He have his ambiguity, unorthodoxy and tactical brilliance to complement his effectiveness.

Yeah, and the Barsen'thor 'embodies true skill.'

Originally posted by ares834
Nah, Revan's utterly owning of Nyriss is even more impressive. Nyriss is, after all, capable of incredibly potent lightning and capable of humiliating the Exile.

The Barsen'thor equaled or surpassed this feat when she blocked an explosion that demolished a blast door at close range. Again, while weakened. And then went on to fight through a ship and kick Vivicars ass.

A feat that clearly reeks of gameplay mechanics.

Its mentioned in the questlog.

Sure, she undoubtedly blew it up. I just question the way she did it in gameplay. IE running up to it and stabbing it with a lightsaber.

It tells you to ignite the barrel. How else would she ignite the barrel?

Use the force like a lightsaber throw or shoot it with a blaster.

Revan, better accolades and feats honestly...

Smashing through a huge blast door and throwing a large chunk of metal isn't as impressive of TKing Asteroids or summoning Force Lightning storms at ease. ^.^

nope.

Originally posted by ares834
Use the force like a lightsaber throw or shoot it with a blaster.

That would destroy the lightsaber and she doesn't have a blaster.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan, better accolades and feats honestly...



Don't get me wrong defeating Vivicar is a very impressive feat, but I feel Revan simply has better ones.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That would destroy the lightsaber and she doesn't have a blaster.

Less idiotic than her and her companion just standing there. Heck throwing the barrels against one another would even create sparks.

hardly just the vivicar feat.

Thor's ragdolling of that big ass statue is pretty impressive. B1tch chucked that thing like it was nothing.

Originally posted by ares834
Less idiotic than her and her companion just standing there. Heck throwing the barrels against one another would even create sparks.

Dude, just accept it, she sabers them then tanks the explosion. If the developers wanted her to just saber throw or do it another way, they'd have her ignite them that way.


Anyway, as Supreme says, the Barsen'thor has other feats. She's clobbered down impenetrable vault doors, tossed aside bus-sized chunks of metal and defeated the First Son. Remember, the First Son was able to do what Sidious did (hide from all Jedi senses) on hundreds of people. And he's said to be far more powerful than a usual Child of the Emperor.

Do not use any of Vitiate's playthings in the same sentence as His Imperial Majesty.

There will be consequences.

Well excuuuuuuse me, princess.

and the First Son is also said to be an absolute master of the force and possess remarkable power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well excuuuuuuse me, princess.

You are excused.

But do not think of testing the limits of my mercy further.

Ok. Thank you.

Glad to see you did read my thread though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, just accept it, she sabers them then tanks the explosion. If the developers wanted her to just saber throw or do it another way, they'd have her ignite them that way.

Or, you know, it's a gameplay mechanic which it certainly seems to be.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, as Supreme says, the Barsen'thor has other feats. She's clobbered down impenetrable vault doors, tossed aside bus-sized chunks of metal and defeated the First Son. Remember, the First Son was able to do what Sidious did (hide from all Jedi senses) on hundreds of people. And he's said to be far more powerful than a usual Child of the Emperor.

I'm not saying she is unimpressive, but I honestly don't see any of that being beyond what Revan has done. That's not to say I could see Revan replicating all of her feats, he couldn't. But I'd give him an edge in a battle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok. Thank you.

Glad to see you did read my thread though.

N-no I didn't... If I did I must... I must have just accidentally clicked on the wrong one... I'd never voluntarily read it...

Originally posted by Nephthys
I disagree. Malak was powerful and everything, but he wasn't amped to the same degree that Vivicar was. And Vivicar/Morrhage at least rivals Malak in power by himself.
It is possible that Vivicar was more powerful and dangerous then even (prime) Malak at that point, if he was indeed drawing on the power of hundreds of individuals to fuel his own.

It shall also be noted that Vivicar's corruptive influence was so strong at that point that only Barsen'thor had an answer for it (from the Jedi camp) with a special talent, if I am not mistaken. Any other Jedi who came in contact with Vivicar fell in despair or succumbed to his influence.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Revan had better support than the Consular did (who at the time only had Qyzen and Theran) in the form of Jolee, Juhani, Canderous, Carth, HK etc. And the Barsen'thor was greatly weakened right from the start.
From Revan's support crew, only 2 accompanied him inside the Star Forge but this support ended at Bastila's position. Still, Malak's commander was continuously monitoring Revan's progress inside the Star Forge and Revan did most of the work according to him.

I am not asserting that Revan's "Star Forge based showing" is superior to that of Barsen'thor's "quest to stop Vivicar" but the two events are comparable holistically.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and the Barsen'thor 'embodies true skill.'
Well...

Maybe this contest is: 30/70 (with 30 in favor of Revan)?



Give Revan some holistic credit. I think that he is Plagueis tier at least.

Wait is the Barsen'thor canonically a female?

No.

Originally posted by ares834
Or, you know, it's a gameplay mechanic which it certainly seems to be.

It isn't a mechanic just because it occurs in gameplay. The developers easily could have had her ignite it another way. They have the animations. Have her pull out a blaster, or set explosives or throw her lightsaber etc.... they could have done those just as easily as how they had her ignite them. Hell, the Consulars standard method of igniting barrels in gameplay is to use a Force push. Instead they had her use her lightsaber, which had to have been more effort on their part that just using her default method of the Force.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not saying she is unimpressive, but I honestly don't see any of that being beyond what Revan has done. That's not to say I could see Revan replicating all of her feats, he couldn't. But I'd give him an edge in a battle.

Well, I disagree. In terms of TK at least she seems superior. She can do things that he cannot, as you say, because she's more powerful.

Why would you give him the edge?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Wait is the Barsen'thor canonically a female?
Barsen'thor is implied to be female while HoT is implied to be male. This is from a canon source.

.

I get Barsy threw around some statues and doors, but honestly Revan just poured astreoids from the sky...I don't know how heavy each one was, but it gotta be heavy.

Heres some nerd dude calculating the weight of it (It's not canon but still neat): http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19652

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't a mechanic just because it occurs in gameplay. The developers easily could have had her ignite it another way. They have the animations. Have her pull out a blaster, or set explosives or throw her lightsaber etc.... they could have done those just as easily as how they had her ignite them. Hell, the Consulars standard method of igniting barrels in gameplay is to use a Force push. Instead they had her use her lightsaber, which had to have been more effort on their part that just using her default method of the Force.

And? It's like a character surviving a light-saber strike or a grenade it just appear to be the absurdity of gameplay. Now, if we saw her use the force to protect herself or her companion I'd agree that she did it. But we don't, she just runs through the explosion with nothing suggesting she defended against it. So I just chalk it up to gameplay.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, I disagree. In terms of TK at least she seems superior. She can do things that he cannot, as you say, because she's more powerful.

Why would you give him the edge?

She does have the edge in TK. But that alone does not give her the win. Revan after-all was able to take Vitiate's force push.

Revan, by contrast, seems to have the better combat feats like the Nyriss one. Or briefly holding his own against Vitiate. Even the boarding of the Starforge is comparable to JC's Vivicar feat IMO.

also, Vivicar was not being amped by 100's of masters at that point.

He wasn't?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is possible that Vivicar was more powerful and dangerous then even (prime) Malak at that point, if he was indeed drawing on the power of hundreds of individuals to fuel his own.

It shall also be noted that Vivicar's corruptive influence was so strong at that point that only Barsen'thor had an answer for it (from the Jedi camp) with a special talent, if I am not mistaken. Any other Jedi who came in contact with Vivicar fell in despair or succumbed to his influence.

I think so. Of course, Revan had to defeat Malak multiple times. Buuuut the Barsen'thor was greatly weakened at the time she faced Vivicar.

Yes, his plague.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From Revan's support crew, only 2 accompanied him inside the Star Forge but this support ended at Bastila's position. Still, Malak's commander was continuously monitoring Revan's progress inside the Star Forge and Revan did most of the work according to him.

I am not asserting that Revan's "Star Forge based showing" is superior to that of Barsen'thor's "quest to stop Vivicar" but the two events are comparable holistically.

I know, I was just pointing out that Revan's crew was more impressive than the Barsen'thors was at the time. Tharen is an inventor and Qyzen is a game hunter. Meanwhile Revan had two Jedi, the future Mandalore and HK-47 to pick from.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well...

Maybe this contest is: 30/70 (with 30 in favor of Revan)?



Give Revan some holistic credit. I think that he is Plagueis tier at least.

Don't get me wrong, I give Revan respect. His mastery of the Force was something rivaled by few and surpassed by only the best. I just think the Barsen'thor is better than him.

Originally posted by ares834
He wasn't?

nope. He says this: "Soon , the combined strength of all your masters will make me the most powerful force adept who has ever lived!"

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
nope. He says this: "Soon , the combined strength of all your masters will make the most powerful force adept who has ever lived!"

Soon as in when he infects all the Jedi Masters in the Order. The only reason why he brought it up was to point out to the Consular how he had already won since he was siphoning it already.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
nope. He says this: "Soon , the combined strength of all your masters will make me the most powerful force adept who has ever lived!"

Dang... She still has her great TK feats but that was by far her most impressive feat.

yeah but he hadn't siphoned much, if anything yet. He says: "with the proper rituals, that power can be channeled." Meaning that he'd probably just started. He'd hardly siphoned a significant amount of power at this point.

That doesn't mean that at all. Rewatch the conversation. 14.06:

sjciPHddNok

"This battle was decided before you stepped aboard."

"Explain yourself."

"My plague siphons power from its victims."

Vivicar knew the Consular was coming since he'd possessed Yuon Par when they found him. He performed the rituals and was fully prepared for the Consular before she'd even stepped aboard. Thats why he says the battle had already been decided.

Now that is....

Bersen'thor might be the most powerful Jedi?

Doubtful. She is near the top though. I put at 4th on my list of Most Powerful Jedi personally.

Originally posted by ares834
And? It's like a character surviving a light-saber strike or a grenade it just appear to be the absurdity of gameplay. Now, if we saw her use the force to protect herself or her companion I'd agree that she did it. But we don't, she just runs through the explosion with nothing suggesting she defended against it. So I just chalk it up to gameplay.

Thats not like that at all. This is something that is mentioned in the questlog and mentioned in such a way to highly suggest that it occurred as it does ("Ignite the explosive barrels to blow open the hangar doors". Thats just gameplay combat.

Originally posted by ares834
She does have the edge in TK. But that alone does not give her the win. Revan after-all was able to take Vitiate's force push.

Revan, by contrast, seems to have the better combat feats like the Nyriss one. Or briefly holding his own against Vitiate. Even the boarding of the Starforge is comparable to JC's Vivicar feat IMO.

True. But he was still overpowered by that push.

His combat feat against Nyriss won't help him against the Barsen'thor since she doesn't use Force Lightning. As for Vitiate, he did so well partially because he had prep against Vitiates telepathy.

Either way, I see her as superior in Force use and a better fighter all around.

I still doubt he'd siphoned a significant amount of power at all tbh.

His plague had been siphoning power for quite some time. Long enough for it to be fatal to some, which would be the point where he's siphoned all he can from them obviously. The ritual is only needed to access that power.

Think about it sensibly though: Look at darth nox for example. She'd gained the power of 4 sith lords (albeit powerful ones) and a voss mystic. this explosively augmented her power to extreme heights. Now if we had a sith lord legitimately siphoning power from hundreds of jedi masters, you get completely insurmountable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Soon as in when he infects all the Jedi Masters in the Order. The only reason why he brought it up was to point out to the Consular how he had already won since he was siphoning it already.

Supreme misquoted Vivicar rather he says, ""Soon, the combined strength of your masters will make me the most powerful force adept who has ever lived!"

There is no mention of the word "all", so while your evidence suggests he may have started he clearly hasn't siphoned the combined might yet when he confronted by the JC if he started at all that is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats not like that at all. This is something that is mentioned in the questlog and mentioned in such a way to highly suggest that it occurred as it does ("Ignite the explosive barrels to blow open the hangar doors". Thats just gameplay combat.



Nah, don't see it. I'd need actual evidence that shows she is actually blocking against it before I view it as anything other than a gameplay mechanic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
True. But he was still overpowered by that push.

Yes, and Vitiate is more impressive than the JC when it comes to TK. As he is, according to you, capable of tearing down the Dark Temple immediately upon dying.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His combat feat against Nyriss won't help him against the Barsen'thor since she doesn't use Force Lightning. As for Vitiate, he did so well partially because he had prep against Vitiates telepathy.

Either way, I see her as superior in Force use and a better fighter all around.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Think about it sensibly though: Look at darth nox for example. She'd gained the power of 4 sith lords (albeit powerful ones) and a voss mystic. this explosively augmented her power to extreme heights. Now if we had a sith lord legitimately siphoning power from hundreds of jedi masters, you get completely insurmountable.

I didn't say he drained all their power (as Nox had access to), but I still don't think it was an insignificant amount. Even if it was only.... 10%? from each, that still adds up to an enormous boost.

10% of 100's of jedi masters>What Nox was receiving. Nox>>>Act 1 Barsen'thor.

I just wish Barsen'thor had one saber feat or accolade. Oneeeee!

Er, she one-shots a rakatan battledroid with her lightsaber at one point?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
10% of 100's of jedi masters>What Nox was receiving. Nox>>>Act 1 Barsen'thor.

Ok, fair point. Maybe it wasn't that severe of a boost. But theres nothing suggesting that the Consular was actually as or more powerful than Vivicar was. She could have made up for a gap in power through raw skill.

Originally posted by ares834
Supreme misquoted Vivicar rather he says, ""Soon, the combined strength of your masters will make me the most powerful force adept who has ever lived!"

There is no mention of the word "all", so while your evidence suggests he may have started he clearly hasn't siphoned the combined might yet when he confronted by the JC if he started at all that is.

I only highlighted the word 'all' as an afterthought. I doesn't matter if he said that word or not since that is clearly what he was referring to.

Originally posted by ares834


Nah, don't see it. I'd need actual evidence that shows she is actually blocking against it before I view it as anything other than a gameplay mechanic.

I've offered solid evidence/arguments that she destroyed it with her lightsaber so it doesn't matter if they showed her blocking it or not. Unless you think she tanked the explosion with her robes.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, and Vitiate is more impressive than the JC when it comes to TK. As he is, according to you, capable of tearing down the Dark Temple immediately upon dying.

Fair enough.

Barsen'thor's best feat is beating the first son, who I think could possibly be stronger than Revan.

Why? He has done nothing to suggest as such.

I could see why people are saying the JC is more impressive as she actually has some nice feats and accolades but the First Son... Nah. Thats a pretty unsubstantiated position.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I only highlighted the word 'all' as an afterthought. I doesn't matter if he said that word or not since that is clearly what he was referring to.

Nah, he just seems to be referring to the masters he has already infected and is potentially siphoning from. No reason to believe he is referring to other Jedi Masters as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've offered solid evidence/arguments that she destroyed it with her lightsaber so it doesn't matter if they showed her blocking it or not. Unless you think she tanked the explosion with her robes.

Damn good robes then.

Nah, he's considered a master strategist and can use Sidious level concealment, plus he can turn invisible and actually slapped around the barsen'thor a bit b4 their fight. Hell a single burst of his lightning put the Barsen'thor on her ass.

So? Did she attempt to block it? And concealing yourself in the force is inconsequential when it comes to battle.

Edit: yeah watched the confrontation his surprise force push and lightning did virtually nothing to the JC and her companion. I stand be my original assertion, saying the First Son is more powerful than Revan is completely unfounded.

Having Sidious level concealment shows a great deal for his power

turning invisible in combat is also pretty ****ing useful, plus considering how powerful the barsen'thor's force defenses are....

Take Nyriss vs. Meetra for example. Nyriss has very powerful lightning, no? Nyriss's lightning tore through Meetra's force barrier and knocked her on her ass. Similarly, The First Son put the Barsen'thor on her ass, the barsen'thor having way more powerful force defenses than Meetra. And by the time she got force pushed, i'm pretty sure the barsen'thor would put up at least some form of defense. If she didn't, then she doesn't embody true skill.

Plus, if we count a certain unique game mechanic (like we do with Revan), the First Son starts to wreck the entire damn cave with TK.

Having the power to conceal that many people across the galaxy is still hugely impressive imo.

It is impressive I'd say. But I don't see the use really in the fight specifically since we don't know how he exactly does it.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plus, if we count a certain unique game mechanic (like we do with Revan), the First Son starts to wreck the entire damn cave with TK.

If so that's pretty good, but still doesn't put him on Revan's level. Dooku, for example, is shown effortlessly collapsing a cave. Heck, isn't one of the TOR masters also capable of such a feat?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
turning invisible in combat is also pretty ****ing useful, plus considering how powerful the barsen'thor's force defenses are....

Take Nyriss vs. Meetra for example. Nyriss has very powerful lightning, no? Nyriss's lightning tore through Meetra's force barrier and knocked her on her ass. Similarly, The First Son put the Barsen'thor on her ass, the barsen'thor having way more powerful force defenses than Meetra. And by the time she got force pushed, i'm pretty sure the barsen'thor would put up at least some form of defense. If she didn't, then she doesn't embody true skill.

That assumes that she her defenses up but we see nothing of the sort. It seems he simply caught her off guard like the beginning of the Yoda/Sidious fight.

Orgus Din's thing is slightly overrated.

edit: Fair enough. however considering the good fight he gave the barsen'thor, i'd say he's hardly that much weaker if not just as powerful as Revan.

How do we know he gave her a good fight though? Thats the problem. Thanaton, for example, certainly didn't give Nox a good fight.

we know he gave her a good fight through another unique game mechanic, known as, "will of Syo", which is when the First Son literally starts to heal you, showing Syo trying to break the First Son's domination over his mind. If this ability were not used the entire fight, it would be an impossible battle to win.

Umm, not sure how that implies that it was a good fight. Specifically since that is treading dangerously close to gameplay mechanics and health bars.

....Because it showed that Syo also had some hand in his defeat? Because that the SWTORE plus the codex explain it as if it was a good fight, like saying the Consular "finally" defeated the first son, or that she, "ultimately" triumphs? This is completely different from the Thanaton thing, which says that Nox utterly destroyed Thanaton.

So? Is there any reason to believe that the JC wouldn't have defeated him regardless (outside of gameplay mechanics)?

editted meh post.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
....Because it showed that Syo also had some hand in his defeat? Because that the SWTORE plus the codex explain it as if it was a good fight, like saying the Consular "finally" defeated the first son, or that she, "ultimately" triumphs? This is completely different from the Thanaton thing, which says that Nox utterly destroyed Thanaton.



That still doesn't mean the battle was close at all. That she "finally" or "ultimately" beat him could just as easily imply that it took awhile to find and defeat the First Son.

For example, one could say "Nox finally defeats Thanaton" and be correct despite the fact that Nox appears to thrash Thanaton in their battle.

Originally posted by ares834


That still doesn't mean the battle was close at all. That she "finally" or "ultimately" beat him could just as easily imply that it took awhile to find and defeat the First Son.

LeGenD has the SWTORE quote, and I don't think it implies anything about it taking a while to find and defeat him.

the very definition of finally is: after a long time, typically involving difficulty or delay.

Yes, and like I said that could refer to the whole quest not just their duel but the whole quest for looking for the First Son as well.

As for the quote all is see in SWTORE is, "The Councilor ultimately defeats the First Son and emerges victorious." Yeah, not really seeing how that means the duel was difficult at all. At best, it is inconclusive proof that the duel took a bit of time.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I just wish Barsen'thor had one saber feat or accolade. Oneeeee!
If this helps: Jedi Master Syo (First Son) was a remarkably skilled duelist.

---

In addition, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia which holistically examines the entire ancient timeline of Jedi and Sith, reveals following to be absolute masters of the Force among the Sith (in no specific order):

1. Marka Ragnos (Original)
2. Darth Marr
3. First Son

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this helps: Jedi Master Syo (First Son) was a remarkably skilled duelist.


How so?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
How so?
Confirmed in canon.

quotepls. sounds interesting.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
quotepls. sounds interesting.
Sure:

Thought Master Syo's martial prowess was impressive, he found no solace in serving on the front lines.

Keep in mind that ever member of the Jedi High Council in this time is a skilled duelist. Syo is among the standouts.

What a tremendous accolade! Clearly his lightsaber skills are among the best if he is called "impressive."

lol.

Lol. For the record swtore does say that the Consular is a skilled swordsman and that its a mistake to assume they weren't.

Originally posted by ares834
What a tremendous accolade! Clearly his lightsaber skills are among the best if he is called "impressive."
Encylopedic mediums tend to be conservative in the context of accolade assignment. Reason is that characters are holistically evaluated in such mediums.

Revan have been described as "Jedi Order's most powerful champion" in a novel dedicated to him. However, in an encyclopedia, he is just stated to "powerful" and "mighty."

Heck, even Satele Shan have not been praised in the context of her dueling abilities in the encyclopedia featuring her. However, we know from her footages that she is very skilled duelist.

So if Syo Bakarn have gotten some nod for his dueling skills in an encyclopedia, he is most likely a remarkably skilled duelist.

No Legend.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No Legend.
Which part?

y'know what's interesting? It says that Nox is as skilled with the blade as she is with the force.

Really?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Which part?

Syo isn't remarkable just cuz they mentioned him being good.

Nox is noted for his incredible power in the dark side. Man, this Sith Lord is a monster in the making.

poor emperor's wrath

Ah I see.

Man, theres a lot in these class descriptions you could quote. Maybe I should add them to my respect threads.

"A master of Force Lightning and arcane secrets,

stunning acrobatics in Lightsaber combat.

The destruction Sith Inquisitors leave in their wake rarely allows for the survival of any recorded images.

Whether the Inquisitor wields a Lightsaber with lightning-sharp attacks, or just Force Lightning itself, it's always a dazzling display of deadly energy.

the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies. An Inquisitor's skills with a Lightsaber are equally impressive. Often wielding a double-bladed Lightsaber, Inquisitors use quick, guileful, and lethal maneuvers to strike their enemies down with astonishing speed."

and nox's rise continues.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Syo isn't remarkable just cuz they mentioned him being good.
Well, he got noted for his dueling abilities holistically in an encyclopedic medium (this is better then having accolades in novels only). In short, Syo is good among the good.

As pointed out before, even Satele Shan have not been noted for her dueling abilities in the same medium. So should we assume that she is not good in this aspect? (She is definitely among the finest duelists. However, Syo could be a notch above her.).

"Bounty Hunters are renowned for their versatility on the battlefield and their ability to go toe-to-toe with force-users. Their legendary abilities in this arena have earned them the nickname "Jedi Killers"."

*cough*

"No one inspires more feat than a Sith Warrior."

I don't know about you guys, but my feet are pretty inspired.

shit. It almost seems like Dolos is posting the entire ****ing Palpatine respect thread from Silver. Which is like 90 pages.

Also it should be noted that in the Knights codex entry it says that they too have 'unmatched lightsaber prowess' so like I guess that cancels out the Warriors quote.


Or maybe we could say the Wrath is more skilled, but the Knight is still overall better in terms of prowess. Idk, we probably shouldn't take them that seriously.

i'm pretty sure they mean it in terms of their respective sides, not all-encompassing.

This is the situation:-

Knights/Warriors specialize in martial aspects of combat and Force abilities in the same context (They are typically unmatched in these areas). However, Consulars/Inquisitors can become exceptionally skilled in these areas as well even though they focus more on achieving mastery of the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this helps: Jedi Master Syo (First Son) was a remarkably skilled duelist.

---

In addition, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia which holistically examines the entire ancient timeline of Jedi and Sith, reveals following to be absolute masters of the Force among the Sith (in no specific order):

1. Marka Ragnos (Original)
2. Darth Marr
3. First Son

This seems a little too definitive. Can you scan this for us?

I don't know about the other two (Marr is called a master of the dark side, but thats all I can see), but the First Son is called a master of the Force. I'm pretty sure Legend is overstating it though.

Vitiate is called history's most powerful dark side master though. :shrug:

Yeah if Ragnos was superior to Vitiate, he must have decided that death was just too awesome to pass up instead of becoming immortal.

I notice a lot of people haven't voted (a third of the people who voted in the last thread), so I guess this one must be a lot closer than the last. I wonder if I should have put a draw option in.... mmm

I haven't really had the time to review all the videos. Part of the reason I haven't also made the time is because I haven't played those class storylines, and I'd hate to remove the element of surprise.

However, Revan was mindraped and drained for 300 years and was still a dangerous opponent. Assuming he didn't recover fully before the Foundry fight, he's still a threat.

I'm pretty sure he did recover. Revan doesn't fight the team right after being rescued. He goes to Tython, talks with the Council about Vitiate and stuff then goes to the Foundry and reactivates it and stuff. He has plenty of time to rest and recuperate.

300 years of mindrape and draining = a month's rest? I'm not entirely sure, but either way it's not something we can measure. The implication is that his sanity is obviously compromised and his power may have been compromised.

Well its not like he's broken his leg or anything. Give him a few days rest, some Jedi healing and maybe a kolto bath and he'd be fine. :T

Or stims.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This seems a little too definitive. Can you scan this for us?
I don't have a scanner at the moment but here is the information:-

First Son:

In a climatic final battle with the galaxy at stake, these two masters of the Force cross sabers. (Page 99)

First Son actually have Palpatine level abilities:

Cloaked in the identity of Master Syo Bakarn, the First Son has been hiding the Children from the Jedi for decades, playing a long game with the Republic. His actions suggest a man possessing remarkable patience, ruthlessness and power. (Codex Entry)

Darth Marr:

Warlord and master of the dark side, Darth Marr is the most senior member of the Dark Council. Few know how Marr rose to power, and none speak of the man before he became a Lord of the Sith. When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom. (Page 174)

Darth Marr was so powerful and competent that he have routed whole armies of the Republic by himself:

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council members who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield. (Page 174)

The aforementioned hype is complemented by some examples as well.

However, Darth Marr's supremacy is self explanatory from the fact that he became the de-factor leader of the Sith Empire in absence of the Sith Emperor; even Darth Malgus failed to compete with him.

In the Dark Council, his sphere of influence is "Defense of the Empire."

Marka Ragnos:

Finally a Sith Lord arose who exemplified the virtues of the Sith. Marka Ragnos was an imposing, merciless figure, a master of the Force and arts of war. He set his enemies at each other's throats and battled for supreme power. With the defeat of his last rival, Marka Ragnos became the new Dark Lord of the Sith. He ruled for over a century, unchallenged in a period of stability later called the Golden Age of the Sith. (Page 147)

The one about Ragnos in particular is pretty much his codex entry. I guess my main concern is how does the book explicitly establish a hierarchy of Dark Side users, if it does indeed do so? Or is it just open to interpretation? Marr's status is not in question, but tanking a Republic assault and killing an entire army is a "tale", and that is suspect.

Or perhaps I have misunderstood your earlier post and these individuals are simply indicated to be extremely powerful. Your earlier post seemed very definitive and put them in a specific order.

What do you mean by establish a hierarchy? Ragnos has a good quote that pretty much puts to rest the dumb "he just ruled through political power' bullshit.

Also Legend said they were in no order, Moosey! Lrn 2 red.

I agree with that, but Legend's post had a specific ordering, and that I contested. The stuff he has subsequently produced has not supported that ordering.

Also, Ragnos' standing is still pretty impressive, considering his loyal subjects who could not kill him on his death bed include the Kressh and Sadow clans which included the best Sith alchemists and artifact creators in the mythos and Tenebrae who pimpslapped his whole planet and was awarded a minor position by Ragnos in recognition.

While I think Vitiate may eventually surpass him in terms of "unchallenged badass", Ragnos is up there. I just am not certain that Legend's list is valid without real definite support.

He said it was in no specific order.

You're absolutely correct, I don't know how I missed that except I was reading it on my phone earlier. Whups.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you mean by establish a hierarchy? Ragnos has a good quote that pretty much puts to rest the dumb "he just ruled through political power' bullshit.

Except Ragnos did rule in part due to political cunning and strategic acumen. I'm not sure it was ever suggested that that's only how he maintained power.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The one about Ragnos in particular is pretty much his codex entry. I guess my main concern is how does the book explicitly establish a hierarchy of Dark Side users, if it does indeed do so? Or is it just open to interpretation? Marr's status is not in question, but tanking a Republic assault and killing an entire army is a "tale", and that is suspect.
Their is lot of information in the book.

This is the pyramid:-

- Sith Emperor
- Dread Masters
- Sith Elites (Dark Council members / Emperor's Wrath / First Son / remarkably powerful Sith Lords)
- Sith Lords
- Sith Apprentices
- Sith Acolytes

Marr's combat prowess is not suspect since he used to battle on the frontlines like Malgus. In-fact, his profile contains examples of some of his battles.

The word "tales" is used in the sense that tales spread within the entire Republic about remarkable combat prowess and power of a masked Dark Council member who have fought Republic forces on numerous situations and literally humiliated them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Or perhaps I have misunderstood your earlier post and these individuals are simply indicated to be extremely powerful. Your earlier post seemed very definitive and put them in a specific order.
That post isn't about ranking of characters. It is intended to offer general information about some extremely powerful Sith Lords mentioned in the book.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except Ragnos did rule in part due to political cunning and strategic acumen. I'm not sure it was ever suggested that that's only how he maintained power.

So he's brilliant and powerful? Good to know.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So he's brilliant and powerful? Good to know.

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i55/2/10/18/frabz-hey--U-MAD-BRO-b22111.jpg

No one ever said Ragnos was a tard or a weakling. Only that Sidious is more brilliant and more powerful.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i55/2/10/18/frabz-hey--U-MAD-BRO-b22111.jpg

No one ever said Ragnos was a tard or a weakling. Only that Sidious is more brilliant and more powerful.

Which is clearly incorrect. Ragnos would not have been approached from behind and benchpressed into the abyss, nor would he have been shot in the back by Han Solo. Your argument is invalid.

And Sidious wouldn't have died a nobody in the galactic backwater, consigned to a handful of mentions in every sourcebook ever released.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/G4Q8/haha-you-suck/image.png

No, he ruled over the definitive Golden Age of the Sith, and his elite mooks included people who could crush Sidious' apprentices like grapes.

UR BUTTHURT IS SHOWING.

Ragnos > Sids.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, he ruled over the definitive Golden Age of the Sith, and his elite mooks included people who could crush Sidious' apprentices like grapes.

lolplz

Maul, the weakest of Sidious's apprentices, drags starships like Tonka toys whereas the best Sadow and Kressh can do is chuck three bricks.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
UR BUTTHURT IS SHOWING.

no u

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ragnos > Sids.

Nonsense. One achieved unprecedented victory against the Republic and the Jedi and ruled the galaxy for twenty years in what is the most epic display of brilliance and cunning in the entire saga.

The other is Marka Ragnos.

U fayl

http://www.ddmsrealm.com//wp-content/gallery/tor-korriban/ddmsrealm-korriban-beast-of-marka-ragnos.jpg

Ragnos keeps this as a pet. You lose.

Kressh destroyed a large statue with just his anger.

B/W Why the hell Kressh threw some bricks at Sadow? Did the latter called out on the mamma of Kressh?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except Ragnos did rule in part due to political cunning and strategic acumen. I'm not sure it was ever suggested that that's only how he maintained power.

It was stated long ago that Ragnos was only in charge because of his cunning etc. I don't know, I just like the quote and I think it demonstrates the nature of his empire:

"A Sith's will to power is but a means to an end. The true purpose for conquering inner limitations and external threats is to found a legacy that will far outlive the death of flesh. Few Dark Lords ever achieve this nearly impossible feat. Most die in ignominy, forgotten by the sands of time or deliberately wiped from history's slater by vengeful rivals. For it is not enough to merely add a permanent thread to the vast Sith tapestry. A true master of the dark side demands immortality by eliminating every rival along the path to eternity. Wars lasting generations are waged to claim this final domination, for even death itself cannot deter the strongest-willed foes."

Pfft. The Emperor keeps Darth Vader as a pet. And Dooku. And Maul.

And this:

http://mandrykart.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/choices_of_one1.jpg

You can have that fugly thing; I'll take Mara.



I remember antediluvian claims that Ragnos was "only in charge" because he personally beat the shit out of any and all of his opponents but I don't recall it being seriously contended that he only ruled due to cunning.

Either way, it is a fact that cunning played an integral role, as it must with any successful ruler.

Ragnos was a cunning linguist. Therefore he kept his power. That is all.

Either that or was a master debater

Lolz. Also, Lightsnake argued that Ragnos may have ruled with just political acumen and was not as powerful as context implied so I believe the idea originated with him and you have parroted it before, though perhaps sometimes merely to be hirarious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pfft. The Emperor keeps Darth Vader as a pet. And Dooku. And Maul.


Yeah, but he never beat them up every night before pulling on his jammies.

Because Sidious didn't need to sleep, unlike Marka Ragpuss.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Lolz. Also, Lightsnake argued that Ragnos may have ruled with just political acumen and was not as powerful as context implied so I believe the idea originated with him and you have parroted it before, though perhaps sometimes merely to be hirarious.

Nah, I remember saying that political acumen did play an integral role in Ragpuss's rule which is both a fact and something the antediluvians denied.

And I am always hirarious bro.

You dun be misremembering. Illustrious, IKC and I in particular argued against the assertion that Ragnos relied exclusively on political leverage and possessed Force and martial might of little note.