Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Current Kakashi is obviously way more powerful than he was in part 1 and early part 2 when he fought Itachi.

Scenario 1) Sick Itachi (same Itachi who died against Sasuke)
Scenario 2) Healthy Itachi (no Edo Tense)

Who would win?

Itachi would easily win in both scenarios as Kakashi still has nothing against Tsukuyomi.

Itachi has even less of an answer to Kamui lol.

Tsukuyomi is way faster than Kamui. Second, why would Kamui work on Itachi when dumber people than him like Minato and Konan were able to figure it out? Itachi's answer to Kamui would be genjutsu which we know Kakashi will fall for.

Minato was smart himself (not as smart as Ita though since it was directly stated that he was the most talented and gifted Shinobi that Konoha's ever produced) and Konan had a lot of time to figure Kamui out. I'm sure that Itachi can figure it out too in a prolonged fight, but given the one-shot potency of both their main abilities, I'd wager that this fight wouldn't last for that long. Kakashi might be able to get Itachi in surprise, but once Itachi's genjutsu is set up, Kakashi would be screwed imo.

How does Kamui one-shot Itachi? What high-tier character has it ever one-shotted that would make you say that?

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Tsukuyomi is way faster than Kamui. Second, why would Kamui work on Itachi when dumber people than him like Minato and Konan were able to figure it out? Itachi's answer to Kamui would be genjutsu which we know Kakashi will fall for.

Humor me by explaining how one eye starring is faster than another. Also you are kidding yourself if you think Itachi is smarter than mister Yondaime.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
How does Kamui one-shot Itachi? What high-tier character has it ever one-shotted that would make you say that?

Naruto. 313

They both have one shot potential. But my money is on Itachi ****ing Kakashi up with genjutsu before Kakashi can concentrate on Kamui. Amaterasu is another one shot potential for Itachi too.

Oh I think ultimately Itachi wins the fight. PIS on Kakashi never thinks to just Kamui stuff away. Now that Obito is out of the picture there is 0 reason why he doesn't just port Madara away. If both are in character than Itachi would win more than he'd lose.

But remove the PIS/CIS and Kakashi's Kamui is simply a better move.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
How does Kamui one-shot Itachi? What high-tier character has it ever one-shotted that would make you say that?

He's BFR'd Gyuuki just before it was hit by the Ten-Tails' attack. He'd easily BFR Itachi with Kamui.

Itachi still wins though.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Also you are kidding yourself if you think Itachi is smarter than mister Yondaime.


7 year old Itachi is as smart as mister Yondaime. 131

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Humor me by explaining how one eye starring is faster than another. Also you are kidding yourself if you think Itachi is smarter than mister Yondaime.



Naruto. 313

1. Kakashi doesn't have the power to use it as often as Obito does.
2. Because Tsukuyomi is instantaneous as are Itachi's other genjutsu (see when Orochimaru tried to back-stab him and his second Kakashi fight)
Plus, Itachi's clearly faster than Kakashi (as seen in part 1) and obviously way more powerful in general since Uchiha bloodline.
3. Minato figured it out and Itachi, at the very least, is as big as a genius as him.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Oh I think ultimately Itachi wins the fight. PIS on Kakashi never thinks to just Kamui stuff away. Now that Obito is out of the picture there is 0 reason why he doesn't just port Madara away. If both are in character than Itachi would win more than he'd lose.

But remove the PIS/CIS and Kakashi's Kamui is simply a better move.

Itachi would win regardless. He can actually use Mangekyo Sharingan to its fullest extent whereas Kakashi and Obito can use it for merely one jutsu. Holding back "Itachi" has already toyed with Kakashi two times anyway.

Itachi was literally carrying and protecting EMS Sasuke (who would crush Kakashi tbh) against Kabuto, WHILE holding back. Kabuto, who had rigged up the entire place and made himself pretty much immune to genjutsu. That's like the biggest anti-Itachi thing to do, ever. And what happened?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/4862479/itachi-s-izanami-o.gif

Also, based on what is Kamui > Itachi's abilities? Amaterasu was hurting the Juubi and would have been fatal if it hadn't removed its burning body parts. That alone is more impressive than anything that's been done with the use of Kamui. From either Kakashi or Obito.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He's BFR'd Gyuuki just before it was hit by the Ten-Tails' attack. He'd easily BFR Itachi with Kamui.

Itachi still wins though.



7 year old Itachi is as smart as mister Yondaime. 131

He moved Gyuuki. Good for him. The thing is, Itachi's stronger than Gyuuki as all the bijuu are weak with the exception of Kurama (the Akatsuki were two-manning/soloing these guys left and right), is obviously much faster than it, and has genjutsu to use. That showing is not really applicable to a fight such as this.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
The thing is, Itachi's stronger than Gyuuki as all the bijuu are weak with the exception of Kurama (the Akatsuki were two-manning/soloing these guys left and right)

lol

When I said "weak," I meant in comparison to Itachi. Take a look:

Shukaku - Deidara soloed it and its Jinchuriki without even using his best jutsus.
Gyuki - Gyuki and B would have probably lost to Sasuke had the latter mastered his Mangekyo Sharingan. Hell, borderline released B was losing to Kisame pretty badly. Kisame who was probably holding back since his real motive wasn't to kill or capture the Hachibi.
Matabati - Kakuzu and Hidan beat it up and captured it.
Kokuo - Captured by some unknown Akatsuki member(s).
Chomei - Captured by some unknown Akatsuki member(s).
Son Goku - Kisame soloed it.
Isobu - Deidara and Obito captured it.
Saiken - Soloed by Pein in the anime which is considered to be the secondary canon.

Pretty bad track record, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by TheTyrant
1. Kakashi doesn't have the power to use it as often as Obito does.
2. Because Tsukuyomi is instantaneous as are Itachi's other genjutsu (see when Orochimaru tried to back-stab him and his second Kakashi fight)
Plus, Itachi's clearly faster than Kakashi (as seen in part 1) and obviously way more powerful in general since Uchiha bloodline.
3. Minato figured it out and Itachi, at the very least, is as big as a genius as him.

1. Nope he doesn't. But against one guy he need only use it once.

2. See instantaneous is a nice thing to say about Tsukuyomi but Kakashi has actually demonstrated the ability to quickly activate his MS to port something as fast as a Susano'o arrow and the fastest guy alive. Tsukuyomi has what? Sasuke used it on Bee once in a fight real fast but that is about it in terms of activation feats.

3. Minato figured out Obito's Kamui which is a far more defensive technique. Kakashi's Kamui is offensive. He stares, it disappears. Please humor me and figure out the weakness here. It is essentially a much faster Amaterasu.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Itachi would win regardless. He can actually use Mangekyo Sharingan to its fullest extent whereas Kakashi and Obito can use it for merely one jutsu. Holding back "Itachi" has already toyed with Kakashi two times anyway.

That one jutsu is better than anything in Itachi's arsenal. And the Kakashi in this thread is clearly stronger than the Kakashi Itachi has fought.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Itachi was literally carrying and protecting EMS Sasuke (who would crush Kakashi tbh) against Kabuto, WHILE holding back. Kabuto, who had rigged up the entire place and made himself pretty much immune to genjutsu. That's like the biggest anti-Itachi thing to do, ever. And what happened?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/4862479/itachi-s-izanami-o.gif

Pulls a new move out of his ass to win instead of using his supposed genius to figure out how to beat Kabuto with his standard gear.

Let's not pretend Izanami was not the stupidest thing about the War Arc. And it really made me question how much of a genius Itachi was since he really did just pull something from the ether.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Also, based on what is Kamui > Itachi's abilities? Amaterasu was hurting the Juubi and would have been fatal if it hadn't removed its burning body parts. That alone is more impressive than anything that's been done with the use of Kamui. From either Kakashi or Obito.

That's an Amaterasu powered by full Susano'o and Rasenshuriken. And it failed since the Juubi just ripped off the portions burning. The Juubi is above all competitors in this thread.

That said Kamui can instantly remove someone from the battlefield. Amaterasu takes time to work since the Raikage did exactly what the Juubi did and he willingly let himself get burned. Kamui allows for no such defense. As for Tsukuyomi there is already a decent defense for it that Kakashi is aware of: don't look into his eyes. With Kamui it doesn't matter if there is eye to eye contact. He stares, it disappears. Even when Kamui failed on Deidara because Kakashi demonstrated a lack of practice it still tore the guys arm off. Kakashi could just stare at Itachi's torso. If Itachi causes him to mess up he's still short one torso.

Kakashi's Kamui might be the single most broken technique in the manga* short of Madara's giant Susano'o or Tobi's Kamui and the like.

*Kakashi is not one of the strongest though because PIS/CIS keeps him from simply abusing it to the techniques full potential and he is fighting Tobi whose Kamui is...yeah.

Originally posted by TheTyrant


He moved Gyuuki. Good for him. The thing is, Itachi's stronger than Gyuuki as all the bijuu are weak with the exception of Kurama (the Akatsuki were two-manning/soloing these guys left and right), is obviously much faster than it, and has genjutsu to use. That showing is not really applicable to a fight such as this.

a) Doesn't matter if Itachi is stronger than Gyuuki, as Kamui ignores conventional durability and strength. If Itachi gets hit by Kamui, he'll be teleported, and he won't be able to return.

b) Akatsuki were 'two-manning/soloing' the Jinchuurikii, who were all imperfect Jinchuurikii, with the exception of Isobu of course.

c) It's a showing of Kamui's speed, not Gyuuki's. Kakashi completely teleported something as large as Gyuuki right before the Juubi's Bijuu-beam hit it. Earlier, he teleports Naruto just before the stake hits him. Obito, a Mangekyou Sharingan user, couldn't follow what had happened, i.e. it was too fast for him to keep up with its speed.

The only downside to Kamui is that Kakashi needs a massive chakra boost to use it at the levels he demonstrated during the fight against the Ten-Tails, i.e. it is ridiculously chakra intensive.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Itachi would easily win in both scenarios as Kakashi still has nothing against Tsukuyomi.

Nothing against it? Guy figured out an anti Tsykuyomi strategy (Namely, simply not looking him in the eye..)

Kakashi's smart enough to do the same.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
1. Nope he doesn't. But against one guy he need only use it once.

And proof that it would work? You're using No Limits Fallacy since it's never been used on someone as good as Itachi in a fight. By your logic, Kakashi can beat Madara and Hashirama as well, since all he needs is a quick second of Kamui. You know that's bull.



Itachi put Sasuke in Tsukuyomi instantly.

Remember when Sasuke removed the bands around his writs in order to release his shurikens, while Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan was activated?

So this happens (notice the shurikens on the floor)


Then after Tsukuyomi's effects are over, we can still see the shurikens on the ground, meaning that little shuriken throwing part did actually occur.
http://94.23.34.161/manga/mangas/Naruto/388%20-%20The%20Difference%20in%20Strength%E2%80%A6!!%20/ch388_UK_Page_14.png
Take a note of the distance between them once Sasuke "breaks out."

http://94.23.34.161/manga/mangas/Naruto/387%20-%20Reality%E2%80%A6!!%20/ch387_UK_Page_10.png
So it's probably about at this point where Itachi puts Sasuke in Tsukuyomi.

Since they had been fighting non-stop since, and we know that there is no "activation time" required for it other than Mangekyo Sharingan, then we can conclude that it can be cast instantly. Kakashi's already said that about Itachi's genjutsu anyway. And we've seen them be cast instantly as well.

As for Sasuke, Sasuke didn't knowingly put Killer B under Tsukuyomi. It happened by pure instinct, Sasuke had no idea what the hell he just did. Same with Amaterasu.



Obito's Kamui has done everything that Kakashi's has done. If you want offensive abilities, he put away both Fu and Torune mid-combat. Kakashi's Mangekyo is Obito's, so why would you think that their general abilities would be any different? If Kakashi's Kamui is so strong, then how come he didn't outright use it during the war against the significant resurrected people? Madara? Clearly, it's not as strong as you think it is. No Limits Fallacy.



Not really. Tsukuyomi and Izanagi are the best jutsus that we have yet seen in Naruto. The former makes one God within its duration while the latter alters reality. All Kamui does is make one intangible and pull someone into another dimension.



He could easily kill or seal Kabuto, but he needed to put him under genjutsu in order to CANCEL the Edo Tensei. And what could he possibly do when Kabuto had rigged up their fighting ground and made himself pretty much immune to Tsukuyomi and basic genjutsu?

Also, Izanami was introduced after Izanagi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izanagi
They're brother and sister in Japanese mythology. So obviously Kishi was building up towards Izanami and was planning to use it at one point. So why not have the most talented and gifted character in Naruto do it? No asspull out of the blue ability.


Obito and his reason for following Madara were the stupidest thing about this war. Itachi and Madara's returns were the best things about this war



http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/8/66-635.0/compressed/k017.jpg



Then how come Madara's still kicking? How come Kakashi's done NOTHING other than beat up a weakened Obitoo?



It's not that simple. You don't have to look at Itachi's eyes for his casual genjutsu which will control his 5 senses. He's not going to know that he's staring straight into Itachi's Mangekyo when his 5 senses are being controlled.




So you would pick Kamui over Rinnegan abilities, Edo Tensei, and Izanagi?



It's not PIS/CIS. It's a limit put there so that Kakashi doesn't stomp characters with 1000 times more power than him. So obviously Kishimoto himself disagrees with your Kamui >> anything in Naruto way of thinking.

Originally posted by cdtm
Nothing against it? Guy figured out an anti Tsykuyomi strategy (Namely, simply not looking him in the eye..)

Kakashi's smart enough to do the same.

Itachi's going to make him look into his eyes. He's faster and more powerful.

The scans about Hachibi above don't apply here either. Kakashi's using his super fast Kamui on his allies and is obviously not teleporting them to that other dimension. He probably requires more time and chakra in order to send people out to the other dimension. That's the only explanation for Kamui's shortcomings in fights that I can think of.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
And proof that it would work? You're using No Limits Fallacy since it's never been used on someone as good as Itachi in a fight. By your logic, Kakashi can beat Madara and Hashirama as well, since all he needs is a quick second of Kamui. You know that's bull.

You don't actually know what a No Limits Fallacy is. Let's start there.

A No Limits Fallacy is, as the name implies, a fallacy brought on by the entertaining of an idea that an ability is limitless.

If I were to claim Kakashi could put the moon in the Kamui dimension then that would be an example of a No Limits Fallacy. Because Kakashi has no demonstrated sufficient feats to back that claim. At all.

Now what I suggest is the Kakashi can use his Kamui to remove an adult male from the dimension. Has he shown the ability to do this? Yes, twice in fact(kinda 3 times but details). I'm not invoking a No Limits Fallacy as I'm arguing for an act that the manga has shown is possible.

As for Kakashi being able to beat Hashirama and Madara...well both are hilariously faster than Kakashi so that is why he'd lose. Bijuudama calcs are nuts. Granted his ability to spar Obito, a character who could dodge Naruto's attacks without Kamui, might indicate that he should be able to fight at that level but Obito was almost certainly exhausted from fighting all day.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Itachi put Sasuke in Tsukuyomi instantly.

Remember when Sasuke removed the bands around his writs in order to release his shurikens, while Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan was activated?

So this happens (notice the shurikens on the floor)


Then after Tsukuyomi's effects are over, we can still see the shurikens on the ground, meaning that little shuriken throwing part did actually occur.
http://94.23.34.161/manga/mangas/Naruto/388%20-%20The%20Difference%20in%20Strength%E2%80%A6!!%20/ch388_UK_Page_14.png
Take a note of the distance between them once Sasuke "breaks out."

http://94.23.34.161/manga/mangas/Naruto/387%20-%20Reality%E2%80%A6!!%20/ch387_UK_Page_10.png
So it's probably about at this point where Itachi puts Sasuke in Tsukuyomi.

Since they had been fighting non-stop since, and we know that there is no "activation time" required for it other than Mangekyo Sharingan, then we can conclude that it can be cast instantly. Kakashi's already said that about Itachi's genjutsu anyway. And we've seen them be cast instantly as well.

As for Sasuke, Sasuke didn't knowingly put Killer B under Tsukuyomi. It happened by pure instinct, Sasuke had no idea what the hell he just did. Same with Amaterasu.

All of that is insignificant to the lone arrow feat. Danzo could casually keep track of Sasuke, who incidentally allowed himself to be caught by Tsukuyomi because he wanted to break it and create an opening(yes Itachi allowed it but it seemed to be Sasuke's plan to get hit), but Sasuke's Susano'o arrows were much too fast for him. Yet Kakashi activates Kamui in time to stop one. It's a better activation feat and doesn't require eye contact.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Obito's Kamui has done everything that Kakashi's has done. If you want offensive abilities, he put away both Fu and Torune mid-combat. Kakashi's Mangekyo is Obito's, so why would you think that their general abilities would be any different? If Kakashi's Kamui is so strong, then how come he didn't outright use it during the war against the significant resurrected people? Madara? Clearly, it's not as strong as you think it is. No Limits Fallacy.

As established you don't know what a No Limits Fallacy is. The reason Kakashi hasn't Kamui'd Madara is simple: Obito would just go get him. It's a net gain of nothing. And as for the war why not just beat up the resurrected people since none of the ones he fought were significantly stronger than him.

And Obito's Kamui is clearly different from Kakashi's. Obito has never starred at something and made it disappear. If Obito wants to make something vanish he has to grab it(Fu, Torune, Karin, Sasuke, Minato, Naruto). Kakashi can use it from any distance within reason(Naruto far away, Deidara far away, Gyuuki a distance away). The two are different plain and simple.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Not really. Tsukuyomi and Izanagi are the best jutsus that we have yet seen in Naruto. The former makes one God within its duration while the latter alters reality. All Kamui does is make one intangible and pull someone into another dimension.

Now that is a No Limits Fallacy. Itachi demonstrated a little bit of mind rape. Tsukuyomi has never demonstrated much except a person's ability to feel the passage of time and a bit of mindrape. And again it needs eye contact. It requires you to have to work for using it. And Izanagi, while possibly better, is not spammable(unless you're Danzo). Not compared to Kakashi's Kamui and definitely not Obito's Kamui(the most spammable and probably most broken technique in the manga).

Originally posted by TheTyrant
He could easily kill or seal Kabuto, but he needed to put him under genjutsu in order to CANCEL the Edo Tensei. And what could he possibly do when Kabuto had rigged up their fighting ground and made himself pretty much immune to Tsukuyomi and basic genjutsu?

Oh man the good guys were fighting someone who looked unstoppable! Whatever shall they do?

See Sasuke fought Danzo whose move looked unstoppable but did he pull a magic never before seen jutsu out of nowhere to win(besides the Hawk but it is of far less importance)? Nope. Sasuke beat Izanagi by using some clever trickery and simple tactics involving moves that we the audience already knew he had. That's why the fight was fun. Had Itachi and Sasuke used their genius to figure out a way around Kabuto's defenses then it would have been way more entertaining.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Also, Izanami was introduced after Izanagi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izanagi
They're brother and sister in Japanese mythology. So obviously Kishi was building up towards Izanami and was planning to use it at one point. So why not have the most talented and gifted character in Naruto do it? No asspull out of the blue ability.

Using outside sources to count towards foreshadowing is doing it wrong. Example: I wrote a story with characters named Peter, John, and Andrew. That doesn't mean I can just plop in a random character named Judas to do what I need him to do. It fits a naming theme outside the story but inside there is no foreshadowing.

Or using another situation. Let's say in the Avengers, a film where a bunch of Marvel Superheroes(there are a lot of these guys), at the end all seems lost until Squirrel Girl appears to save the day. No one hints at her existence before hand. She just shows up. Are you going to tell me that just because she's from the same universe in the comics that justifies her appearing the movie out of nowhere?

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Obito and his reason for following Madara were the stupidest thing about this war. Itachi and Madara's returns were the best things about this war

An opinion does not equal mechanical issues in the writing. Sure there were mechanical issues in the Obito stuff but the Izanami thing utterly killed the tension of the fight and made it insufferably boring and anti-climactic.

We know, and kids do as well for that matter, that setting up something like Izanami must lead to a payoff. We know it will work. Kabuto seems to have no interest in this move so we know he isn't concerned by it and crafting strategies. Sure enough when Izanami is seen Kabuto can do nothing to stop it.

All of this leads to the audience having the same mundane feeling: Izanami will beat Kabuto. In between Izanami's introduction and Kabuto's defeat that feeling undercuts everything. Kabuto's flashbacks, the present fighting, all the speeches, everything. It mechanically kills the tension.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Then how come Madara's still kicking? How come Kakashi's done NOTHING other than beat up a weakened Obitoo?

Because Obito can go to another dimension and get Madara is Kakashi ports him away. Waste of chakra.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
It's not that simple. You don't have to look at Itachi's eyes for his casual genjutsu which will control his 5 senses. He's not going to know that he's staring straight into Itachi's Mangekyo when his 5 senses are being controlled.

You seem to have gotten Kakashi mixed up with a 5 year old non-ninja.

Kakashi knows how genjutsu works. He is aware of how capable Itachi is.


Originally posted by TheTyrant
So you would pick Kamui over Rinnegan abilities, Edo Tensei, and Izanagi?

Yes lol. Particularly Obito's since it means I'd be able to do all kinds of things.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
It's not PIS/CIS. It's a limit put there so that Kakashi doesn't stomp characters with 1000 times more power than him. So obviously Kishimoto himself disagrees with your Kamui >> anything in Naruto way of thinking.

But it is. The only justification as to why Kakashi doesn't just Kamui Madara away is the reasoning that Obito would bring him back. But that isn't brought up in the manga so for now it is CIS since Kakashi has outright just not used Kamui to defeat the bad guys before.