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This is Jaden Korr Jedi Master currenty in 44 ABY

Accomplishments: Defeated the Sith Spirit of Marka Ragnos, Defeated Tavion and the Sith Disciples of Ragnos, Defeated other enemies in the wars and defeated One Sith agents throughout the cosmos.

vs

Maul - Crushed the Black sun, Defeated Bondara, Defeated Qui Gon Jinn, Defeated Obi Wan on some occasions.

So two chess players of Saber dueling go at it in a pure Lightsaber match, who takes it?

Maul stomps him with his bare hands .-.

How and why?

Originally posted by Allankles
How and why?

You left out that he beat Savage in less then 5 moves with a single saber while Savage had a double-saber, stood up pretty good against Sidious, even physically tagging him, with his robotic legs, nonetheless, and defeating Pre Viszla.

Vizla was a cunning one to be sure, very persistent an excellent swordsman, but Maul was wont to be over elaborate. You still haven't explained how this is some one sided fight, his fighting a Kor afterall.

I don't think this is a stomp.

Nah, this may not be a stomp but Maul does win. Defeating Tavion means squat since she never demonstrated much, and defeating Marka Ragnos's spirit doesn't mean much, either. His spirit was clearly very limited when compared to his living version and thus can't be counted as a truly notable feat. Defeating Marka Ragnos in the flesh >>>> defeating Marka Ragnos's 5000 year old spirit whose only power source was his scepter.

Maul, on the other hand, has quite impressive feats and has demonstrated to be the superior swordsman and combatant.

I also think Kor could lose a pure saber duel with Maul but if he brings the force, he ties Maul up in 10 minutes. Great fight either way.

One has to wonder if there's an atrophy of Force spirits over time, since Kun and Ragnos' spirits thousands of years later required a lot of life-Force to sustain them just barely, and were much weaker than their living forms explicitly. However, Freedan Nadd, a much younger spirit, was more formidable in comparison and Ragnos spirit upon appearing to Sadow and Kressh invokes absolute obedience. He later "forces" Kun and Ulic to work together, and tells Ulic he's inferior and the guy accepts it.

Also in every case where Sith attempt to live forevah, they are seen draining millions, planets, etc. in this attempt. Obviously they know something we conclusively don't but can infer; that living as a Force shade (and not succumbing like Obi-Wan's did) requires a tremendous amount of power, and atrophy apparently does kick in.

It takes a tremendous amount of power to give a Sith Lord as big in the force as Ragnos an apparition form in the physical realm.

That seems to be the case. Every time we see a manifestation of a Sith Lord, they have required some deus ex artifact or power sap to maintain it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
One has to wonder if there's an atrophy of Force spirits over time, since Kun and Ragnos' spirits thousands of years later required a lot of life-Force to sustain them just barely, and were much weaker than their living forms explicitly. However, Freedan Nadd, a much younger spirit, was more formidable in comparison and Ragnos spirit upon appearing to Sadow and Kressh invokes absolute obedience. He later "forces" Kun and Ulic to work together, and tells Ulic he's inferior and the guy accepts it.

Also in every case where Sith attempt to live forevah, they are seen draining millions, planets, etc. in this attempt. Obviously they know something we conclusively don't but can infer; that living as a Force shade (and not succumbing like Obi-Wan's did) requires a tremendous amount of power, and atrophy apparently does kick in.

This. I was wondering this, exactly. The only explanation is that spirits are indeed weakened over time for some unexplained reason.

That's my thoughts, and that's why I don't consider say, Jaden's defeat of Ragnos' spirit as impressive as Kun's vanquishing of Nadd's spirit.

I'm the opposite, I consider Jaden's vanquishing of Ragnos superior to Kun's, since Kun betrayed Nadd to vanquish him. Kor had to fight.

Erm, no. Kun outright overpowered Nadd in an instant. This was crucial because prior to receiving the amulet (and explicitly accepting the Dark Side), Kun could not do anything to Nadd, and Nadd had complete superiority over his descendants on the planet, including Aleema and Ommin.

Meanwhile, Jaden Korr fights a weakened Ragnos' spirit stuck in Tavion's relatively weak body. The idea of "betrayal" or sucker punch means little in this respect.

Dude, Kun betrayed Nadd. He turns the amulet on his erstwhile mentor vis-a-vis betraying the guy who helped make him powerful, before he could react.

Kor has to fight not one but 2 dark personalities, just to say he survived his first year at Jedi school, big difference man.

1. Nadd was unconcerned because he felt he was more powerful than Kun. He had reknit Kun's physical body before after making the guy beg. This was around the same time he attacked Arca Jeth across the galaxy. It's an assumption that he would have been better able to defend if he had been "on his guard", since Kun is explicitly stronger than Nadd at this point.

2. Ragnos' spirit in the form of Tavion, or any of his cult disciples are demonstrably weaker in comparison. Tavion's greatest feats are attributed to Ragnos' own sceptre.

I'm still not seeing your viewpoint.

Tavion is a young dark Jedi, still growing in the force, so she has what we call "upside" with the force, basically her potential has barely been tapped really, so Ragnos filling the spaces is what happened there.

Kun didn't have to struggle to accomplish the feat, he just blasted the guy to kingdom come before the dude knew what hit him. It didn't give us a chance to even gauge what Nadd would have done.

Ragnos at least got some respect by seeing his vanquishing coming.

But considering that Nadd killed a lot of people like that, including his own former Sith mentor Naga Sadow, it's not a big surprise he got his comeupings in the same way.

Please stop blowing Jaden. And once again,. It's Korr, with 2 R's.

Ok:

a) Sith ghosts take energy to do anything (like affect the real world, materialse etc), particularly away from their resting places, so its possible for them to diminish over time. But Kallig does say that he can replenish his strength by resting so idk.

b) I'd actually agree with Allankles in that Kun sucker-punched Nadd, which isn't as good as Korr beating up a real opponent in a fight. Especially since Ragnos had his staff. I'd also kind of question how weakened Ragnos was. I mean, the staff had drained the power of several nexus' and planets. :shrug:

Ragnos was a duelist, as was Tavion, they preferred to manifest their power in force of arms and I think it is fair to say that they were still getting practice at it, the two personalities in one thing. Though I believe Tavion and even Kor had contact with the Waru entity before their respective meetings with the Jedi.

Ragnos was far from his original power at the time of his resurrection, IMO.

Originally posted by Allankles
Tavion is a young dark Jedi, still growing in the force, so she has what we call "upside" with the force, basically her potential has barely been tapped really, so Ragnos filling the spaces is what happened there.

Actually, I'd like to establish a baseline here of Tavion's relative weakness; Kun, in a similar place of darkness, aided Kyp Durron in basically dominating Luke Skywalker.

Tavion, with Ragnos' spirit in her, can't defeat Jaden Korr, who is barely a Jedi.

The idea is that either Ragnos' spirit is drastically weaker than Kun's (either due to natural atrophy versus Kun's massassi mass-drain or because he is naturally weaker than Kun, which is suspect) or Tavion is the weak link.



Kun didn't struggle because with the amulet and his newfound love of da Dark Side, he was more powerful. Nadd already demonstrated his strength. As it was, he had barely enough power to notify his kin back on Onderon before he faded into the Void.

Also, work totally interrupted this post so I may be behind.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kun didn't struggle because with the amulet and his newfound love of da Dark Side, he was more powerful. Nadd already demonstrated his strength. As it was, he had barely enough power to notify his kin back on Onderon before he faded into the Void.

Also, work totally interrupted this post so I may be behind.

Exactly, Kun didn't struggle, making it less impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok:

a) Sith ghosts take energy to do anything (like affect the real world, materialse etc), particularly away from their resting places, so its possible for them to diminish over time. But Kallig does say that he can replenish his strength by resting so idk.

The spirits we see in TOR are old, but not as old as spirit-Kun or spirit-Ragnos. I still think some degree of atrophy is reasonable.



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/1662905-new_picture__36_.jpg

The idea of Nadd being sucker punched is kind of misleading. Kun rebuffs him twice and is brandishing the amulet he just used to level the temple and decimate the massassi and that Sith wyrm.

Compare this with Nadd who earlier was able to again, heal a dying and crippled Kun from across the galaxy and attack Vodo (I've been saying Arca Jeth, whups!) across the galaxy.

http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090718200228/starwars/images/9/97/ExarTempted.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/6696iqt.jpg

Originally posted by Allankles
Exactly, Kun didn't struggle, making it less impressive.

If I push a rock casually, and someone else struggles, it is less impressive?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, I'd like to establish a baseline here of Tavion's relative weakness; Kun, in a similar place of darkness, aided Kyp Durron in basically dominating Luke Skywalker.

Tavion, with Ragnos' spirit in her, can't defeat Jaden Korr, who is barely a Jedi.

The idea is that either Ragnos' spirit is drastically weaker than Kun's (either due to natural atrophy versus Kun's massassi mass-drain or because he is naturally weaker than Kun, which is suspect) or Tavion is the weak link.

It might seem so, but then again just blasting away Kor would have been less than easy, he was a bit of a slickster.

Tavion actually used the scepter to blast Kor, but Kor avoids the beam of destruction and other destructive waves,
so Kor prevailed also because he's an artful dodger, and not necessarily because he was more powerful than Tavion,
let alone Marka.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If I push a rock casually, and someone else struggles, it is less impressive?

Nadd is unawares, in fact, he doesn't even need to betray the fully dead king of olderon. Could have redeemed him, but meh!

Originally posted by Allankles
It might seem so, but then again just blasting away Kor would have been less than easy, he was a bit of a slickster.

Tavion actually used the scepter to blast Kor, but Kor avoids the beam of destruction and other destructive waves,
so Kor prevailed also because he's an artful dodger, and not necessarily because he was more powerful than Tavion,
let alone Marka.

So Korr won by virtue of artful dodging? You mean that thing he didn't do in all those cutscenes?

Originally posted by Allankles
Nadd is unawares, in fact, he doesn't even need to betray the fully dead king of olderon. Could have redeemed him, but meh!

Kun is brimming with rage and brandishing the amulet of Nadd's former dead master and the mate of another amulet which is something of an heirloom of his family and in the keeping of Ulic at this time.

So either Nadd is stupidly unaware of the fact that Kun is suddenly a danger to him, or he was legitimately overpowered anyways. Im pretty sure the only way Nadd could have avoided the attack with prep would be to you know, manifest somewhere else.

Unless Kun with the amulet can punch spirits by virtue of flexing his arm, in which case it baffles me even more why he didn't just knock Ragnos' lights out and kill Ulic to claim the throne.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If I push a rock casually, and someone else struggles, it is less impressive?

Is pushing a rock easily off a cliff more impressive than struggling to carry a rock up a hill?

Actually, looking at the scan again, Exar Kun closes a decent gap before punching into the manifestation. So if you can sucker punch someone from across a small room, I'm now a believer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is pushing a rock easily off a cliff more impressive than struggling to carry a rock up a hill?

That analogy doesn't work though. Freedan Nadd, who had previously demonstrated utter power over Kun with the Force, even away from his resting place (which we established has some effect on his powers), is suddenly weaker than Kun and just knocked out of the picture.

Jaden Korr, who was never threatened by Ragnos' spirit directly and only indirectly threatened when that spirit inhabited the again, weakling Tavion, defeats her in a pitched battle.

Kun's dominance > Korr's dominance. It's fairly evident. Look at the scans above.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, looking at the scan again, Exar Kun closes a decent gap before punching into the manifestation. So if you can sucker punch someone from across a small room, I'm now a believer.

By force speed? You can. Kor is a master of force speed as well, so getting hit by a blast was not a common occurrence for him - but for a few incidents - which have been documented.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That analogy doesn't work though. Freedan Nadd, who had previously demonstrated utter power over Kun with the Force, even away from his resting place (which we established has some effect on his powers), is suddenly weaker than Kun and just knocked out of the picture.

Jaden Korr, who was never threatened by Ragnos' spirit directly and only indirectly threatened when that spirit inhabited the again, weakling Tavion, defeats her in a pitched battle.

Kun's dominance > Korr's dominance. It's fairly evident. Look at the scans above.

Dominance isn't the end all be all when determining how to rate
anything really. Kun's propensity to want to 'dominate' made him fall to the dark side.
And also made him a sucker for dark side spirits, who in turn 'dominated' him.
So domination isn't an issue here. Kor would clearly be the weaker guy there, which makes his survival... most impressive!

Originally posted by Allankles
By force speed? You can. Kor is a master of force speed as well, so getting hit by a blast was not a common occurrence for him - but for a few incidents - which have been documented.

A sucker punch is by definition without warning or before someone is able to martial a defense. Let's examine this again.

1. Either Nadd could not defend himself because Kun was so ultra fast that the latter could sucker punch him from across the room

Or...

2. He was boned either way.

It's still more impressive than Korr's epic battle against Tavion-Ragnos, who has displayed nothing approaching that, except for what the sceptre did. Also keep in mind that Nadd was dead for less time than Ragnos, so if atrophy is a valid concept, Ragnos was much much weaker in comparison, Tavion aside.

Kun + Kyp Durron > Luke rather easily.
Ragnos + Tavion > Korr after an epic fight.

Clearly, the struggle of the latter is far more impressive, right?

Originally posted by Allankles
Dominance isn't the end all be all when determining how to rate
anything really. Kun's propensity to want to 'dominate' made him fall to the dark side.
And also made him a sucker for dark side spirits, who in turn 'dominated' him.
So domination isn't an issue here. Kor would clearly be the weaker guy there, which makes his survival... most impressive!

This is ridiculous. In an effort to establish martial superiority, or superiority in the Force, one's demonstrated ability to dominate similar or superior opponents is indicative of one's higher standing in relation to the opponent in the versus thread. Your attempt to remove this inequality because you heart Korr and admire the underdog is neither accurate nor the way we do things around here.

Therefore, I am disinclined to agree that you have a point.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A sucker punch is by definition without warning or before someone is able to martial a defense. Let's examine this again.

1. Either Nadd could not defend himself because Kun was so ultra fast that the latter could sucker punch him from across the room

Or...

2. He was boned either way.

It's still more impressive than Korr's epic battle against Tavion-Ragnos, who has displayed nothing approaching that, except for what the sceptre did. Also keep in mind that Nadd was dead for less time than Ragnos, so if atrophy is a valid concept, Ragnos was much much weaker in comparison, Tavion aside.

Kun + Kyp Durron > Luke rather easily.
Ragnos + Tavion > Korr after an epic fight.

Clearly, the struggle of the latter is far more impressive, right?



This is ridiculous. In an effort to establish martial superiority, or superiority in the Force, one's demonstrated ability to dominate similar or superior opponents is indicative of one's higher standing in relation to the opponent in the versus thread. Your attempt to remove this inequality because you heart Korr and admire the underdog is neither accurate nor the way we do things around here.

Therefore, I am disinclined to agree that you have a point.

Nadd is trapped between worlds anyway so his respond-and-avoid a blow abilities are already compromised in a sense. He's a "dead guy" already, so his apparition not responding means he didn't expect, since he still had ambitions for Kun and the Sith.

Kun's insistence on dominating also often ensured he wouldn't last long, in any given time. He was too impatient with his power and wasted it all in big blasts.

Originally posted by Allankles
Nadd is trapped between worlds anyway so his respond-and-avoid a blow abilities are already compromised in a sense.

How? Establish this with facts or at least a coherent argument.



You're assuming Nadd is unaware of his own danger entirely, without any proof or coherent arguments to support it.



This is irrelevant within the context of the debate. Kun's power was sufficient enough that he was never threatened, except by the combine force of the entire Jedi Order. The entire discussion relating to the Sith spirits was to agree to how impressive was Korr's defeat of Ragnos' spirit, and so far it looks like it was not as impressive as it could be. If Korr defeated a spirit of Ragnos which was capable of doing the things Nadd could do (effect the physical world on a intergalactic way, heal Kun from death, etc.) then the feat would be comparable enough to consider. As it is, Ragnos' spirit does jack-all until it's revived, and then it takes over her body, pulls out the sword, and fights Jaden in sword combat. Then gameplay ensues, and Jaden wins. It establishes really nothing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
How? Establish this with facts or at least a coherent argument.

Sith Spirits are trapped between their world of the dead and the sw wars physical reality when they manifest.
Or I should say, part of their minds are trapped there, unless they fully manifest physically.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're assuming Nadd is unaware of his own danger entirely, without any proof or coherent arguments to support it.

Nadd expected danger but not at that moment, he had lived for hundreds of years and
wouldn't have imagined his new apprentice would kill him that quickly, that early in his apprenticeship.
Not that Kun should feel too aggrieved,
Nadd had it coming at that stage.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is irrelevant within the context of the debate. Kun's power was sufficient enough that he was never threatened, except by the combine force of the entire Jedi Order. The entire discussion relating to the Sith spirits was to agree to how impressive was Korr's defeat of Ragnos' spirit, and so far it looks like it was not as impressive as it could be. If Korr defeated a spirit of Ragnos which was capable of doing the things Nadd could do (effect the physical world on a intergalactic way, heal Kun from death, etc.) then the feat would be comparable enough to consider. As it is, Ragnos' spirit does jack-all until it's revived, and then it takes over her body, pulls out the sword, and fights Jaden in sword combat. Then gameplay ensues, and Jaden wins. It establishes really nothing.

Well it actually establishes everything, it says that Ragnos valued the heart and the resolve as virtues,
since he was already a master of destruction in life.

So his fight with Kor, was to measure the heart and
resolve of the Jedi teachings of that era, and also to examine the heart of Ragnos himself, in his identity as a warrior.

Since it is by the warrior code, that Ragnos
held the throne of the Sith Empire.
So when Jaden prevailed, it was a sign that the
Sith teachings could not resolve the heart of the warrior code, never and for all time, not until they change also, like these new Jedi have changed.

Originally posted by Allankles
Sith Spirits are trapped between their world of the dead and the sw wars physical reality when they manifest.
Or I should say, part of their minds are trapped there, unless they fully manifest physically.

You still didn't establish your earlier point.



Even though he killed Sadow prior? And raised a treacherous den of Force-sensitive family members? Also, this doesn't establish anything concrete.



...

Where are you getting this information from? Some pocket dimension inside of your rectum? This is the definition of reaching.



You are projecting way too much of your own personal views on this. For one, this isn't in the game. If it is, my memory has utterly failed me but a Youtube video or screen capture would be vital to make this stick.

Two, Ragnos crowned Exar Kun and said he would prevent the Sith legacy from dying out, merely because he sensed the power in the new Sith Lord. Ragnos can actively sense people's strength, as just about anyone here. He wouldn't need to battle Jaden to prove anything. Sith bushido is not a real concept.

Three, Ragnos would be greedy to live again to spread the Sith ideals and conquer the Jedi. Thus he would be eager to smackdown Jaden and get on living.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You still didn't establish your earlier point.



Even though he killed Sadow prior? And raised a treacherous den of Force-sensitive family members? Also, this doesn't establish anything concrete.



...

Where are you getting this information from? Some pocket dimension inside of your rectum? This is the definition of reaching.

Ragnos was noted for dueling to keep his throne, so for him to use speed, skill, strength, force of arms and alchemy is normal for him as a Sith Warrior.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You are projecting way too much of your own personal views on this. For one, this isn't in the game. If it is, my memory has utterly failed me but a Youtube video or screen capture would be vital to make this stick.

Well...we're both projecting personal views dude.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Two, Ragnos crowned Exar Kun and said he would prevent the Sith legacy from dying out, merely because he sensed the power in the new Sith Lord. Ragnos can actively sense people's strength, as just about anyone here. He wouldn't need to battle Jaden to prove anything. Sith bushido is not a real concept.

It is... it is the means by which they have protected their kingdom,
the means by which they enforced their ideals, basically the
Sith Code.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Three, Ragnos would be greedy to live again to spread the Sith ideals and conquer the Jedi. Thus he would be eager to smackdown Jaden and get on living.

Yes, that too.

Maul wins. Faster, stronger, more skilled, more experienced.

Faster: "The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his actions. Time seemed to slow, to stretch."
-From Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Stronger: "Dodging them, Maul ran across the room and dived headfirst through a window, somersaulting midair so that he hit the ground on his feet, now centered among his astonished opponents. Growling, he clenched his bare hands and set on them, killing one after another."
-From End Game

More skilled: "In many ways Darth Maul was an exemplary acolyte. His loyalty was unquestionable and unshakable; Sidious knew that, if he were to command it, Maul would sacrifice his life without a second's hesitation. And his skills as a warrior were nonpareil."
-From Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

More Experience:
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Darth%20Maul/Maulisoneofthemosttrainedsithever_zps72bc0bb0.png

Maul's idea of dog-like loyalty was kind of interesting considering he was a Sith, but it was never his personality that made him a major player; he was a loyal assassin and that was pretty much it, until the recent series turned him into a *****.

Kor's force abilities and Jedi skills would turn the new Maul into a joke, this is TPM "can take on Black Sun by myself" Maul, any other and it's a mismatch in favor of Kor.

CW Maul > PM Maul

CW Maul is a joke compared to his original actually.

lol.

Guys don't seem to get that. And also Obi was also more aggressive as a fighter in the TPM era, an ataru expert at the time, before switching to Soresu in the CW era.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, I'd like to establish a baseline here of Tavion's relative weakness; Kun, in a similar place of darkness, aided Kyp Durron in basically dominating Luke Skywalker.

Tavion, with Ragnos' spirit in her, can't defeat Jaden Korr, who is barely a Jedi.

The idea is that either Ragnos' spirit is drastically weaker than Kun's (either due to natural atrophy versus Kun's massassi mass-drain or because he is naturally weaker than Kun, which is suspect) or Tavion is the weak link.


I think it's a combination of the fact that natural atrophy comes into play and the fact that Tavion is a weakass pretender.

Tavion was titled the Steward Of The Sceptre, making her greed as a young Sith acolyte, understandable.
But she should have given the Jedi the Sceptre without need for violence.

Uh... Okay.

Originally posted by Allankles
Guys don't seem to get that. And also Obi was also more aggressive as a fighter in the TPM era, an ataru expert at the time, before switching to Soresu in the CW era.

This is incorrect, he was a student of Ataru, and later changed to Soresu because he saw how inadequate it was against Maul, specifically by a master of the form named Qui-Gon Jinn.

Originally posted by Petrus
I think it's a combination of the fact that natural atrophy comes into play and the fact that Tavion is a weakass pretender.



At no point does the game lead us to conclude that Tavion is anything but this.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is incorrect, he was a student of Ataru, and later changed to Soresu because he saw how inadequate it was against Maul, specifically by a master of the form named Qui-Gon Jinn.





At no point does the game lead us to conclude that Tavion is anything but this.

Aah! Thanks for the correction, but Obi Wan fearing Ataru was basically what happened there.

Yup, pretty much. In fact, the only person who seems to use it to any real utility level is Yoda, and he's on another plane compared to the other knights and masters.

The fighting styles always struck me as poorly implemented, perhaps because G-canon doesn't take note of them, and they originated shortly after AotC which has limited dueling entirely. Soresu, for example, is all about blaster bolt blocknig (which Obi-Wan does in spades, but Anakin does equally well) and is a defensive style, yet Obi-Wan's defense is penetrated many many times throughout his career. About the only person he dominates is Grievous, and that guy is a muggle. In comparison, Maul's or Dooku's defense is much tighter, even though they rely on vastly different styles.

Originally posted by Allankles
CW Maul is a joke compared to his original actually.

I really hope you don't take this to too personal an offense, but...
You're an idiot.

CW Maul was much more powerful with the Force and incorporated many saber styles with his new single blade. He was at his absolute peak against Sidious when using two blades. Not only that, he became much more cultural and put his hate to better use and became the Master of Savage Opress who already surpasses TPM Maul, and his command of the Force was nearly unbeatable. For instance, take notice of my recollection of all his Force abilities I witnessed during his resurrection:

1. Darth Maul effortlessly hung Obi-Wan by his throat on Yellowblade's landing
2. Darth Maul mastered the art of piercing one such as Ko Solok with a saber throw
3. Darth Maul collapsed an entire factory corridor on Moorjhone while desperate and on the run with a bare lightsaber wound
4. Darth Maul stopped one of the Moorjhoni's leader's hearts
5. Darth Maul Telekinetically stopped a rabid and deadly Obi-Wan with the opportunity to kill him (He didn't because he wanted to get revenge in a more cruel emotional way)
6. Darth Maul brought down Obi-Wan and Adi Gallia's freighter while on the run in a field of blaster fire, missing one of his artificial legs that had a physical connection to him
7. Darth Maul impeccably Force choked Satine Kryze without gesture
8. Darth Maul penetrated Darth Sidious's pressurizing Force lightning with a large Force push

Add this to the fact that he displayed that he wasn't only a highly experienced martial artist but a Dooku-worthy swordsman/fencer and he defeated Pre Vizsla without using his Force powers--only springing upward with his cybernetic legs, and that fight against Vizsla was all just for show--Maul is vastly superior to his TPM state, who would grow much more reliant and closer to death were he in all of TCW Maul's situations.

Anyway, as for the fight, Maul wins a hard duel against Jaden. Though Jaden is extraordinary powerful, he is lacking in experience and unlike Maul, he learned Luke's gay new blue-yellow-red styles, rather than all the seven forms.

Darth Maul beats Jaden Korr, and he beats TPM Maul if he's in TCW state.

He's much less cool though. estahuh

Mauls power never really increased, it plateaud.
When he had all his limbs he was mobile enough not to even need the force outside of movement augmentation in fights.

So circumstance and hatred made him more force heavy, plus fanboys wanted to see him at least sling some force powers.

But his lower body was roboto and his head was in the clouds.
Easier to fool, easier to shock - less of a Maul.

Creativity wise TCW Maul would get embarrassed all out, guy is not the most creative and for a lithe, slick type fighter he sure goes head long a lot - like he was part Magna guard, which I guess he kinda was.

Anyway TCW Maul is too roboto, too fixed, to static to beat this guy. You need TPM Maul, he had better self preservation protocols.

Originally posted by Petrus
I think it's a combination of the fact that natural atrophy comes into play and the fact that Tavion is a weakass pretender.

I wouldn't call Tavion a pretender. The Sith isn't a exclusive 'club', it is a belief, and Tavion has a right to call herself such.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
I wouldn't call Tavion a pretender. The Sith isn't a exclusive 'club', it is a belief, and Tavion has a right to call herself such.

Tavion is both a fledgling and not inducted into the Sith Order that descended from the likes of Ajunta Pall. That died with Sidious.

Tavion had a path or right of succession. She was an acolyte of Hethrir, who himself was an apprentice of Vaders.

And also you earn the titles based on your knowledge and mastery of Sith ideals and practices. Before Asajj met Dooku she was already an acolyte of the Sith in her learning and mastery of the dark side.

Oh by the way with regards to power if you want to know why Desann, Tavion and Alora were zo szpecial read this:

Hethrir also sought the Valley of the Jedi, which had been revealed to exist by an ally, High Inquisitor Antinnis Tremayne. He tasked Desann with locating it, which he did by tricking the Jedi Knight Kyle Katarn into revealing its location. Desann led his students to the psychic bloodstain remaining at the site, quadrupling their innate powers with the leftover energy from the freed Jedi sprits that were once trapped there. These empowered Empire Youths came to be called the Reborn.

So Tavion was a Darthomirian Empire Youth, part of a pact with mother Talzen and the Empire presumably.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Tavion is both a fledgling and not inducted into the Sith Order that descended from the likes of Ajunta Pall. That died with Sidious.

Well, til the One Sith revival (which worked off XoXaan's trainings, who learned from Pall). But yes, the post-Palpatine darksiders were pretty much working off scraps.




Originally posted by Allankles
Tavion had a path or right of succession. She was an acolyte of Hethrir, who himself was an apprentice of Vaders.

But Hethrir was never a proper sith apprentice, meaning he never got the best of the Sith training.

Sorta like Ventress and Opress. They were 'apprentices' of Sith, but they were never trained to be a 'Sith Apprentice' in the rule of two sense, never brought into the inner secrets of the order.

And Ventress was properly a "Dark Jedi" before Dooku took her in. I recall this being the term used to describe her when she first appeared.

Originally posted by Allankles
Exactly, Kun didn't struggle, making it less impressive.

So by that logic, Palpatine didn't struggle when he mowed down Horn-head, Spike-head and Squidly-didly, making it less impressive.

Originally posted by Allankles
Before Asajj met Dooku she was already an acolyte of the Sith in her learning and mastery of the dark side.

No, Asajj was never a Sith acolyte. Her "learning and mastery of the dark side" make her a Dark Jedi.

Knowledge of the dark side does not make one a Sith. Sith have specific lore, teachings and techniques that set them apart from "regular" Dark Jedi.

Exactly. Just cuz you're a superhero, doesn't mean you're in the Justice League. The Sith have a code and specific teachings. You can't just say you're a Sith and actually be one (coughCaeduscough).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Exactly. Just cuz you're a superhero, doesn't mean you're in the Justice League. The Sith have a code and specific teachings. You can't just say you're a Sith and actually be one (coughCaeduscough).

Well said.

In Caedus's case I suppose we could be generous and say, "well he was taught by Lumiya who was taught by Vader" but yeah, his claim to Sithhood is shaky at best.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And Ventress was properly a "Dark Jedi" before Dooku took her in. I recall this being the term used to describe her when she first appeared.

Well, the first Dark Lords of the Sith were Dark Jedi. Krayt's master Xoxaan was also a Dark Jedi before overthrowing the original Sith Lords.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Well said.

In Caedus's case I suppose we could be generous and say, "well he was taught by Lumiya who was taught by Vader" but yeah, his claim to Sithhood is shaky at best.

He was already a Jedi, he had no need to be a Sith. Too bad Kor wasn't there to talk him down.

Anyone can be a Sith, just study the Sith arts and practice them, that's how the first Dark Jedi became Dark Lords of Sith. They were basically Jedi sorceror/scientists/military men who sought new ways of manipulating the force and the Sith Empire provided them with knowledge of the Sith Magic and its alchemy - basically middle road variations to force manipulation and mastery.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, til the One Sith revival (which worked off XoXaan's trainings, who learned from Pall). But yes, the post-Palpatine darksiders were pretty much working off scraps.






But Hethrir was never a proper sith apprentice, meaning he never got the best of the Sith training.

Sorta like Ventress and Opress. They were 'apprentices' of Sith, but they were never trained to be a 'Sith Apprentice' in the rule of two sense, never brought into the inner secrets of the order.

Uuh!He had the resources to gather Sith teachings, and besides Hethrir was probably not big on titles that compromised his standing within the Empire, Sith were illegalized throughout the galaxy post ROTJ, so being called a Jedi Master to add to his Procurator title would have served him better, than admitting to any DLOTS ambitions or leanings.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was already a Jedi, he had no need to be a Sith. Too bad Kor wasn't there to talk him down.

Caedus would've battered Jaden to the ground and ate the force off his dying corpse.

So derailing aside, Maul wins?

Yes.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So derailing aside, Maul wins?

No. Because Kor knows him better than vice versa.

A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. - Yoda

Originally posted by Allankles
No. Because Kor knows him better than vice versa.

A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. - Yoda

That's a stupid generalization.

"Size matters not" - Yoda.

Yoda doesn't simply crush Sidious with all the pods in the Senate chamber at once.

Maul is an expert swordsman, with a lifetime of Sith training and assassination, and has killed master swordsmen in the form of Qui-Gon Jinn and Anoon Bondara, not even counting his CW form which seems weaker.

You haven't demonstrated how Korr is better.

For one he's a master of the art of war and bears the moral law with him in every fight, but a few.
He's actually the bigger man, as in defensively he looks after himself better and even his opponent.
He has had extensive training in lightsaber combat as well reflecting the natural talent in swordsmanship that has defined many a strong Jedi fighter.

He has had more extensive experience than Bondara or even Obi Wan with persecuting Sith criminals, so...

Basically, Maul ain't nothin' new. - Kor

Originally posted by Allankles
For one he's a master of the art of war and bears the moral law with him in every fight, but a few.

1. Substantiate "master of the art of war". Sun Tzu and Clausewitz are masters too, and Maul would eat them alive.

2. Moral law means jack. Mother Theresa cannot defeat Maul in combat.



Substantiate this with facts and not baseless assertions fueled by bias.



Maul had much more experience and has better kills under his belt.

Quantify Jaden's skill using an actual source and not your own grandiose generalizations.



1. Obi-Wan, as of RotS, has fought more Dark Jedi and Sith of note. This seems kinda bizarre to even have to bring up to you.

2. Anoon Bondara was the premier Jedi swordsman before Cin Drallig, possibly the previous Battlemaster given the year he died Cin gained the position, and virtually peerless except for the likes of Mace and Yoda, and that's about it. Basically, the only two people who could consistently beat him could take on Maul's master. Maul's skill was so evident Anoon knew he couldn't win and had to try to sacrifice himself in a desperate chance to kill the Sith Lord.

"Not make up shit, you should, hmm? Use sources and context!" - Yoda.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Substantiate "master of the art of war". Sun Tzu and Clausewitz are masters too, and Maul would eat them alive.

2. Moral law means jack. Mother Theresa cannot defeat Maul in combat.


He's a warrior too, not Mother Teresa (who was a warrior in her own right))




Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Maul had much more experience and has better kills under his belt.


Korr is a Jedi Warrior with a good heart so all he needs to do is defeat his opponent, he doesn't need kills on his conscience.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Quantify Jaden's skill using an actual source and not your own grandiose generalizations.

Jedi Academy - Source 1 anyone who played it extensively knows the variety of the ataru, shien and soresu aspects, you even had juyo with dark rage powered up.

His Jar Kai was open and expansive, his staff fighting effective but non too elaborate. He never limited himself, why would he - he came into the fold during a Galactic Civil War. Maul limited himself basically.

The novels



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Obi-Wan, as of RotS, has fought more Dark Jedi and Sith of note. This seems kinda bizarre to even have to bring up to you.

Of note - good amendment there but he didn't beat them, he didn't persecute them because Obi Wan uses the force to a lesser extent than Korr does.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Anoon Bondara was the premier Jedi swordsman before Cin Drallig, possibly the previous Battlemaster given the year he died Cin gained the position, and virtually peerless except for the likes of Mace and Yoda, and that's about it. Basically, the only two people who could consistently beat him could take on Maul's master. Maul's skill was so evident Anoon knew he couldn't win and had to try to sacrifice himself in a desperate chance to kill the Sith Lord.

We all know about Anoon, doesn't change much of anything does it, since Rosh Penin was also a battle master and Kor was deadlier than Penin. So being the best skilled swordmaster doesn't make you the most complete swordmaster, nor the grandest and vice versa.

That's why I prefer to look at intangibles, decision making in their lives and in their fights and ultimately Korr is better than Maul - Jedi Holocron

You're really bad at debating.

Twas the 4th day on the month of May when I was born - Anonymous radical

You aint bone - Rap group

Stick to the things you know and all will be good

This is a free for all, welcome to the New Jedi Order, I will be your sparring partner for this evenings contest, the names Kor and I'm not a respecter of persons - Jedi Master Jaden Korr before a sparring match with a fellow force adept.

And here comes the really bad trolling because Maul beats Jaden.

You guys need to set up scenarios - what does each combatant bring to the table, we all know these are skilled.

So you need to stop using arguments like so and so is more skilled as the be all end all. Save it for Maul vs Brakiss, his fighting a guy with a track record of getting the job done against powers, so save it.

It can't be about power because Maul would lose on those grounds - his TCW version is even more vulnerable to the force so... bringing up a crippled Maul is pointless.

So what else, this isn't 1999, this isn't some tiring Jinn in the duel of the fates. This is a prime loco of the NJO, patronize him and he patronizes you.

You don't script the fight, you look at both combatants and what they've done.

Clone Wars Maul is better than TPM Maul.

Clone Wars Maul is better than Jaden.

AGGH!

Clone Wars Maul>TPM Maul, better feats.

TCW Maul is a revenant, quite sad actually. Not fully himself.

Ask yourself this question would any of you have wanted to be in Maul's shoes during the clone wars?
No?!
Then neither would any Jedi. - Anonymous Jedi to his peers on Yavin 4

That has got NOTHING. NOTHING to do with the fight.

TCW Maul = Peak Maul.

Peak Maul > Jaden.

You have your opinions I got mine.

Kor is past Maul, different league.

Originally posted by Allankles
He's a warrior too, not Mother Teresa (who was a warrior in her own right))

The point was those "virtues" don't effect the fight at all any more than Revan being a "master strategist and charismatic person" would effect his battle against say, Vitiate or Malak.

Unrelated and contextless virtues don't do anything as people don't win versus battles by virtue of being likable/moral/etc.



And Maul is a passionless killing machine who has perfected multiple lightsaber forms to culminate in mastery of Juyo, solo'd Black Sun which was the most dangerous non-Force using body of criminals known, defeated three prestigious saber duelists (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anoon), and even tagged Sidious in a mock duel.

What's your point? That Maul wins? I thought so.



No, you don't. For one thing, the forms in JA are limited to three and they do not correspond with the older forms because those were lost to time. Your dishonesty in asserting this makes me not respect your intentions in this debate.



1. Since when did Jaden canonically use a saber staff?

2. What canon source states that Maul limited himself?




This is ultimately a red herring. Obi-Wan != Maul.



I doubt you really do.



Fledgling Penin? LMAO! ALL HAIL THE BATTLEMASTER ROSH!



Penin was a moron and a newbie. So this proves nothing. Your bias is overwhelming, like staring into the sun.



This is semantic bullshit and irrelevant to the discussion.



http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww55/xsirjin/Head_up_ASS.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The point was those "virtues" don't effect the fight at all any more than Revan being a "master strategist and charismatic person" would effect his battle against say, Vitiate or Malak.

Unrelated and contextless virtues don't do anything as people don't win versus battles by virtue of being likable/moral/etc.



And Maul is a passionless killing machine who has perfected multiple lightsaber forms to culminate in mastery of Juyo, solo'd Black Sun which was the most dangerous non-Force using body of criminals known, defeated three prestigious saber duelists (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anoon), and even tagged Sidious in a mock duel.

What's your point? That Maul wins? I thought so.



No, you don't. For one thing, the forms in JA are limited to three and they do not correspond with the older forms because those were lost to time. Your dishonesty in asserting this makes me not respect your intentions in this debate.



1. Since when did Jaden canonically use a saber staff?

2. What canon source states that Maul limited himself?




This is ultimately a red herring. Obi-Wan != Maul.



I doubt you really do.



Fledgling Penin? LMAO! ALL HAIL THE BATTLEMASTER ROSH!



Penin was a moron and a newbie. So this proves nothing. Your bias is overwhelming, like staring into the sun.



This is semantic bullshit and irrelevant to the discussion.


"Taggin" Sidious, Kor would have beat him outright - Jedi Holocron

Penin as a youngin was a moron, he obviously did some growing up, as did Star Wars, and the force and the Jedi.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
You're really bad at debating.

No dude. Jaden doesn't beat Maul, and would never be able to scratch Sidious.

Why wouldn't Jaden know how to use a staff anyway, the first time the universe ever sees him he is able to use a staff. Why would a two blade carrying Jedi not know how to use a staff, this doesn't make him special - I'm trying to tell you skill is not the deciding factor in this match.

Maul is an excellent timer but Kor will make him retreat on their first meeting, guaranteed.

Eeh! The gameplay just indicated how Kor interacted with the universe as a fighter at that time, nothing from there was supposed to be taken away by so called canon.

You're not supposed to take away from the prime canon source.
Further, for a Jedi like him who is used to being in the wars, learning multiple saber styles is natural, not all together special, actually expected. Since there are actually fewer Jedi in his era, it would also be prudent to learn different forms which was already suggested that he did in his first year

If by forms you means Luke's Weak/Medium/Strong styles...

Then he's lost. Maul knows the ORIGINAL forms of saber combat, and is very much proficient in Juyo.

EeH! The old forms are known by Luke's schools... if you didn't know.
And weak, medium, strong is just another way of evolving the saber forms, its not a step back but a step forward trying to find a balance.

Canon source, plz. You have yet to use anything canon and this is contradicted by the games so yeah. Prove up.

The game is the first canon source, don't respect that and you don't respect the spirit of the character.

Novels indicate he still has a propensity for using multiple weapons with at least two blades on his person. Also disguising himself as a commando on some missions in the Vong War. All of it suggesting he continued using and training in multiple weapons including disguise - a thing Maul was never noted for.

His Jar Kai at 14 has been seen, his saber staffing at 14 has been seen. He never put any limits on himself, where does it say he can't saber staff or duel wield. It is been shown that he prefers single blade, not different from how many saw him, but the other avenues to learn - in case of emergencies - were made available to him in that first year. So this concept didn't materialize from bias or wishful thinking but from the source itself.

Its pretentious to suggest preference for one variant excludes training in others, they're knee deep in a galaxy of war, multiple weapon usage and training is expected. If Maul chose to limit himself, that's on him.

Originally posted by Allankles
The game is the first canon source, don't respect that and you don't respect the spirit of the character.

Revan can kill Malak entirely with stims and mines.

That is now canon. Don't respect that, don't respect the spirit of the character.



But no saberstaff? You were explicit on this.




Yeah, disguise is real important in bloodlust battles, I hear.

/sarcasm



Seen when? Where? Context? You made a claim, prove up.



Where does it say he mastered these forms?



Your opinion on gameplay choices is not source material. Sorry. Reread the SW canon Wookiepedia page.



You never ever demonstrated how Maul limited himself, and your bias smacks of either overt trolling, or a shocking lack of self-awareness. In any case:

http://techoctave.com/c7/static/you-lose-i-win.jpg

So strangely enough he owes Krayt some gratitude for giving him a new body, albeit because of treacherous Sith motives.

You're trying to tell me that Jaden is better because he has a more well rounded non saber education and he has a new body of unknown quality compared to the one he had in JA, and he is trained by Kyle Katarn who himself spent much of his adult life unaware of his own Force talents? Compared to someone trained in the Sith arts pretty much from infancy and trained to kill Jedi?

It doesn't matter if Maul'a training is less well rounded when he excels at the very thing being debated here.

You're still trying to argue something with him? Give up already, Moosey.

Do you know how hard it is to find free entertainment these days? I have to buy alcohol to get the bums to fight anymore.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're trying to tell me that Jaden is better because he has a more well rounded non saber education and he has a new body of unknown quality compared to the one he had in JA, and he is trained by Kyle Katarn who himself spent much of his adult life unaware of his own Force talents? Compared to someone trained in the Sith arts pretty much from infancy and trained to kill Jedi?

It doesn't matter if Maul'a training is less well rounded when he excels at the very thing being debated here.

Again, your confusing Maul's wow factor with his actual ability.
He was gifted but he limited himself, Kor has been a Jedi longer than Maul has lived so it's basically a Master fighting an Apprentice on this one.

A master with a 30 year olds body and a 45 year old Jedi Master's mind, and Jedi Master that's been fighting the Sith forever, pratically since day 1 of his inviolvement with this Jedi thing.

So, the guy also knows some other things about lightsabers that Maul doesn't. Read up on him.

Originally posted by Petrus
You're still trying to argue something with him? Give up already, Moosey.

Especially when he needs to limit Kor to make Maul win, yeah he should give up.

Edit: Also I can't believe your statements on Katarn, Katarn was not ESB Luke. He was like Mara, he had been using the force from his teens he just didn't know how to tap it like a Jedi. He was already actively using pre cog and other abilities.

He was also a primed martial artist and already a gifted fencer/swordsman trained by his father Morgan Katarn. So being force sensitive only made his hard worn skills more powerful and focused.

C'mon Katarn is a better and more naturally gifted warrior than Palpatine too.

Katarn is better than Palps?

LMAO.

As a warrior - if you knew what a natrual warrior looked like.

I don't understand how you can make these semantic titles like "well rounded" and "natural warrior", disqualify established duelists with valid wins to their name, and then somehow prop up Korr by virtue of meeting this odd benchmark only he is capable of making.

Here, let me try: Korr never orchestrated the fall of the Republic and the Jedi, tipped the balance of the Force from a sitting position, and defeated Yoda in combat. Sidious is ten times the fighter Korr is by these new benchmarks.

Also, Maul is a mechanical savant, played by someone who is a natural warrior while Korr is animated by flabby geeks, and he can jumpkick in his showings whereas Jaden couldn't.

This is rather fun.

"To troll or not to troll. Eh, **** it. Troll it is." - Palpatine.

Actually those flubby geeks made the best Jedi action series on Earth, so some respect is in order.

Secondly, source code - Jaden Kor can also drop kick and also punch and kick, if you use mods... (What does jump kicking have to do with anything?) Also I can imagine Kor in his travels picking up some shock boxer gloves when prepping for a fight.

We need people who understand that we live in a galaxy of war, we need ultimate bastichs that don't play by the dogmatic prescribed must cut-to-kill rules, we need someone who actually has a clue when it comes to subduing these misguided dark jedi fools. - Jedi Master

Then we need a Kor - Flubby Star Wars geek in Ea circa 2001.

Hell he can already jump kick with the ataru aspects in the game without any modifications - so...

1, 2, 3 - Bell rings and your winner by pinfall Jedi Kor

Natural means that even without the force Katarn would be a bastich in a fight, even for a force user. The same cannot be realistically said of Palps though he could still employ technology to even out the odds but Katarn would also be using tech...

So yeah all things being equal Katarn is a natural compared to Palps, and many others besides.

Kor is also a natural but I suspect like Katarn he received training before becoming a Jedi.

Originally posted by Allankles


Secondly, source code - Jaden Kor can also drop kick and also punch and kick, if you use mods... (What does jump kicking have to do with anything?) Also I can imagine Kor in his travels picking up some shock boxer gloves when prepping for a fight.



Lmao.

Glad I made you think outside the box

Only a fully trained Jedi, with the force as his ally can hope to defeat the Emperor - Yoda

You realize you lose all credibility, and the ability to win any sort of debate when you say:

'Kyle Katarn can beat Sidious.'

Which he can't.

Victors! Valiants! Are we not Jeedai?!!! Are we not the custodians of the ideal of the warrior code, on behalf of the will of the living force? Then what are we afraid of? What has made us turn into the very thing we have fought against for all these years? Cult of personality? Are we not all meant to be luminaries???!!!

Don't look to me, look to yourselves for direction, look to the force for your sustenance. - New Jeedai warrior credo before battle.

Wtf.

Originally posted by Allankles
Victors! Valiants! Are we not Jeedai?!!! Are we not the custodians of the ideal of the warrior code, on behalf of the will of the living force? Then what are we afraid of? What has made us turn into the very thing we have fought against for all these years? Cult of personality? Are we not all meant to be luminaries???!!!

Don't look to me, look to yourselves for direction, look to the force for your sustenance. - New Jeedai warrior credo before battle.

Wow.

Allankles is in love with Korr.

His quotes are pretty funny though. I hold zero dislike for the guy, I just think he's epic trolling.

Let's have a quote-battle, then.

"SILENCE! You think you know ME?! It was I who languished for years, thinking of nothing but YOU--nothing but this moment! And now, the perfect tool for my vengeance is in front of us. I never planned on killing you, but I will make you share my pain, Jaden Korr..."

Know what? Conspiracy theory:

Jaden's lover is Rosh Penin. Only Rosh could have so much bromance with Jaden having been saved from death.

Sounds legit.

Now that's trollin' - Penin after reading that he has any kind of 'bromance' with Kor, his sometime frienemy and ally.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Wtf.
ftw