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fight at marinford
there are clouds present
no water
bloodlust

round 1:
no nine tails tranformations
no mind controling

round 2: all goes

lets see if the protagonist from naruto can take out doffy.

Do you consider his chakra cloak a 'nine tails transformation'?

All-out, Naruto definitely stomps.


Heck, anything full-chakra on (when he could take Kurama chakra, but wasn't yet working with Kurama) is a stomp- that's the point where he can make groups of S-class clones.

Nothing that Naruto (The one that beat A specifically, that you are referring to) did is above what Flamingo has done.

For round 1 can't Naruto just make some of those Kyuubi clones and have them spam Rasenshurikens and Rasengan variants? Also I'm not sure how fast Doflamingo is but could he intercept Naruto with those strings?

All out yeah Naruto wins.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
For round 1 can't Naruto just make some of those Kyuubi clones and have them spam Rasenshurikens and Rasengan variants?

Exactly my thought. Those clones are just too strong to fight in groups.




Maybe some of the time, but chakra-mode Naruto is iirc faster than anyone in OP who doesn't turn into lightning or light.

For what we've seen, Doflamingo chops Naruto into pieces. He's fast enough to react to Sanji without any problem, beating the crap out of Law (who has some uber feats), and has a huge damage output.

That said, we haven't seen his full power, he might have some distinctive weaknesses that Naruto can exploit with his versatility. It would be a fight anyways.

Naruto could, seriously, beat all three at the same time, and has much higher damage output than what all of them have done combined.

Naruto's faster than Sanji, and his chakra cloak gives him much better protection. Law has some nice hax but much lower damage output than Naruto. Naruto's tricker than them, and can be 9 S-class ninja at the same time before he even partnered with Kurama.

Originally posted by Q99
Naruto could, seriously, beat all three at the same time, and has much higher damage output than what all of them have done combined.

Naruto's faster than Sanji, and his chakra cloak gives him much better protection. Law has some nice hax but much lower damage output than Naruto. Naruto's tricker than them, and can be 9 S-class ninja at the same time before he even partnered with Kurama.

Naruto's vaunted speed has failed to dominate Obito, who in turn has been tagged by "slower" characters. I'm assuming the speed advantage isn't massive either way because otherwise we'll be stuck discussing speed forever.

What's Naruto's best durability feat with his shroud? I think Doflamingo's best bet is his superior range and movement (through flight), unless Naruto can tank a few hits I think he has the advantage. Destructive power isn't everything.

well doflamingo reacted to a meteor with increased gravity on it at point blank range and cut it up with ease, just shock. flying isnt really a big factor IMO because using strongs to fly and fight would be difficult when you have naruto as an opponent. also, he has haoshoku haki, which should dominate the will of all his shadow clones, and make them disappear. this fight, i think, is just whos ever good enough to react to the others abilities and counter should win.

Doflamingo.

So? Obito's got his phase-hax thing, in addition to being high jonin-fast. The phase hax means that pure speed isn't enough to tag him- if you hit too soon, you miss. It's about perfect timing. Doflamingo has nothing like that.

Also, everyone who's tagged him is still either high-jonin or S-class speed, and most of them only do so by self-destructing or doing a mutual hit, so it's not like he's ever been hit by a slowpoke. Only Minato's really gotten a flat-out clean hit on him, and Minato... yea, much much faster than Doflam.


And, again, not just one Naruto. He can do a bunch of himself at that speed, easily.




With his full cloak? Deflecting 6 nuclear-level blasts at once.





Destructive power, speed, and numbers in just Kyuubi-chakra mode before he even got full partnership with Kurama.


Overwhelming destructive power, speed, numbers, overwhelming defense in full partnership with Kurama.


Current Naruto could overwhelm the entire Shichibukai, let alone just Doflamingo.




The clone wouldn't have any weaker will than Naruto, they'd laugh at that.

Can you prove that Minato is faster than lightning?

Because early in the manga even Nami could react to lightning.

But haven't One Piece people been tagged by things not as fast as lightning?

Also was Nami's feat before or during the Skypea arc?

Reacting to a lightning attack =/= being as fast as lightning. It just requires anticipating where it's coming, via weather knowledge, haki, or observing your opponents.


Every regular here should know that by now.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
But haven't One Piece people been tagged by things not as fast as lightning?

With regularity.

Originally posted by Q99
With his full cloak? Deflecting 6 nuclear-level blasts at once.
.

He should take it with the cloak, I don't think Doflamingo's control will work through such a big area.


Originally posted by Q99
Destructive power, speed, and numbers in just Kyuubi-chakra mode before he even got full partnership with Kurama

Numbers won't provide a proper defense against Doflamingo, who has a very high range advantage (in the fight where Naruto cannot use his cloak). For me the battle hinges in Naruto being able to mount a defense against hits that are ranged and will kill him if they tag him.


Originally posted by Q99
So? Obito's got his phase-hax thing, in addition to being high jonin-fast. The phase hax means that pure speed isn't enough to tag him- if you hit too soon, you miss. It's about perfect timing. Doflamingo has nothing like that.

Originally posted by Q99
Current Naruto could overwhelm the entire Shichibukai, let alone just Doflamingo.

I call BS in the second statement, Moria by himself can mimick the Obito phasing that -an admittedly weakened- Naruto was incapable of beating by himself. Let's not even talk about hax Kuma, who will project the Kyubi's chakra into another country and leave Naruto helpless in a single move.

Not really, Naruto still has rasenshuriken for range. He can also do mini rasenshuriken once he can manipulate chakra arms.

Plus he can close really, really fast and turn it into a melee fight. He's also know to throw either himself or his clones at enemies as living projectiles.



Defense 1- Clones mean that Doflamingo is probably attacking the wrong target.

Defense 2- Getting out of the way, he successfully dodged A's rush attack after all.

Defense 3- Blocking with chakra arms.

Defense 4- Whatever toughness he's got, which is probably at least as good as Sage mode.

Defense 5- Rapid regen anyway.




No, Moria can phase to escape but he does not have Obito's on/off switch rapid phasing, which is the part that made Obito's tricky. Not even remotely similar even talking defensive capability. Nor does he have Obito's 'warp you away' move. Moria is a complete chump to Naruto. A single clone could beat him.


Kuma- Clone one attacks from the front. Clone two from the back. Clone three from the side. Four from the other side. That's just the most sure method. He may simply be able to avoid Kuma's paws all together. Chakra arms means he could push a rasengan at Kuma and when Kuma tries to block, re-angle it around the paw.

Or just make 6 rasengan and have 6 chakra arms all shove them coming from different angles... a move Naruto's done before.


Thinking about it, he might even be a one-clone foe too. A Kyuubi-chakra clone is faster than Zoro, and has a way to attack from multiple angles at once.

I just started watching OP, I was mainly a fanboy for Crocodile and didn't pay much attention past that though all of the Strawhats were cool. I'm at the Punk Hazard part and I know Doflamingo is supposed to be a powerful enemy but what can he do exactly? I'm not questioning his presence in this fight, just wondering what powers/abilities does he have.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
I just started watching OP, I was mainly a fanboy for Crocodile and didn't pay much attention past that though all of the Strawhats were cool. I'm at the Punk Hazard part and I know Doflamingo is supposed to be a powerful enemy but what can he do exactly? I'm not questioning his presence in this fight, just wondering what powers/abilities does he have.


Invisible strings. He can control someone like a puppet, or cut them with it. Plus he's just a physically strong fighter.

Originally posted by Q99
No, Moria can phase to escape but he does not have Obito's on/off switch rapid phasing, which is the part that made Obito's tricky. Not even remotely similar even talking defensive capability. Nor does he have Obito's 'warp you away' move. Moria is a complete chump to Naruto. A single clone could beat him.

Moria has rapid phasing, he can switch part of his body with his shadow at will. He also has a one-hit move with his scissors. Not saying he beats Naruto in a straight fight, but he'd one-shot a clone if he was fighting seriously (which he wasn't against the SWs).


Originally posted by Q99
Kuma- Clone one attacks from the front. Clone two from the back. Clone three from the side. Four from the other side. That's just the most sure method. He may simply be able to avoid Kuma's paws all together. Chakra arms means he could push a rasengan at Kuma and when Kuma tries to block, re-angle it around the paw..

Or just make 6 rasengan and have 6 chakra arms all shove them coming from different angles... a move Naruto's done before.

Kuma has haki (which means he'll predict any clones Naruto might try to sneak in an attack) and can teleport at will. His attacks have huge range. Simply put, he's more versatile than Naruto and more threatening than regular Obito by a mile. Kuma can solo the team that Obito was facing. He already soloed the Strawhats. Kuma is a teamwrecker and your idea of a clone soloing him is ridiculous.

I rank Naruto pretty high in the Naruto verse, he might beat Doflamingo -as far as I've seen, he has the Tools to do it-, but he's a powerless target against the Tyrant. Kuma is broken in half.

Originally posted by Q99
Lightning-timing One Piece characters are inconvenient to me so I am going to deny it happens. I fixed that for you.

Kalifa also could react to and perceive lightning conjured by Nami.

Blueno, who is stronger than Kalifa, could not follow G2 Luffy's Jet Pistol.

Luffy > Lightning.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I fixed that for you.

Kalifa also could react to and perceive lightning conjured by Nami.

Blueno, who is stronger than Kalifa, could not follow G2 Luffy's Jet Pistol.

Luffy > Lightning.


Lemme put it this way: The actual speed feats of their bodies moving around are consistently less than the speed feats of Naruto characters.

And high-tier One Piece characters both use and have been hit by guns and other much slower attacks, if the shooter is sufficiently skilled.


And One Piece characters consistently take noticeable amounts of time to cover short distances like crossing Thriller Bark or Marineford or so on. It's been central to most story arcs, even.

And lemme also note that I've made this lightning-speed argument about multiple other series before, including Naruto (remember for a moment that Kakashi's said to have cleaved a real lightning bolt with raikiri), but most famously with Negima.




Avoiding something fast has never meant being that fast oneself.




The argument's not in the least bit inconvenient for me. I mean, if I accepted it, it's a simple matter of, "Kakashi's a 'lightning timer,' Naruto's capable of moving much faster, case closed." It's just that it's an argument based on misunderstanding the difference between avoiding something fast and being that fast oneself.

Originally posted by Q99
Lemme put it this way: The actual speed feats of their bodies moving around are consistently less than the speed feats of Naruto characters.

I don't care how fast they can run. Donquixote has ranged attacks.



The technology in OP is in many ways better than our own. The firearms are also able to harm people who can take island-cracking punches to the skull. Would you deny their durability feats as well?



Already covered.



Kakashi's feat has the dubious quality of being off-panel and anecdotal IIRC.

Negima is more legitimate, because we know for a fact that it has lightning timers. Negi actually turns into the stuff, Evangeline and Fate could cleanly react to it, and Jack Rakan apparently came back faster, since he dodged something that some dude who had the same ability as Negi did not.



It depends on how close one is to the attack and when they react to it.

But more importantly, we have a direct comparison between G2 Luffy and lightning. Blueno could not follow Luffy's movement. Kalifa could follow Nami's lightning.



Read above.

So? His ranged attacks won't prevent them from getting into melee... or prevent their ranged attacks.

There's more of them and they're each really, really powerful. Even if we assumed equal speed- which is generous to Doflamingo- the Narutos are still going to win solidly on firepower and the like.



Their durability is far more consistent. Their speed has regular low showings at plot important moments.

Even their high-speed moves like soru and gear 2 are much shorter-distant speed bursts than their Naruto equivalents.



Yep, and it perfectly outlines how someone moving in the mach speeds can react to and fight against lightning.




No, Kalifa followed Nami's lightning attack. Big difference.


If one dodges a gunman's fire, does that mean that one can 'follow the bullet'? Of course not.

That's not remotely a direct equivalency.



And there's still the matter of rare outliers vs consistent showings. High-end Naruto characters are consistently fast and can travel distances bigger than entire OP battlefields in moments. We've had multiple cases of characters chasing kilometers in short periods of time. Their high speed is consistent. One Piece's majority speed feats is far less.

Originally posted by Q99
Lemme put it this way: The actual speed feats of their bodies moving around are consistently less than the speed feats of Naruto characters.

not true, luffy dodged a liquid explosion in mid air after he decided to change to gear 2, explosions are like 8,000 m/s and plus he has moved at mach 11.1 in gear third against hody. and he is faster that lightning, greater now than before the timeskip. and is labled massively hypersonic on obd. and kizaru is still lightspeed, no one in naruto can move FTL without terrain manipulation.

And high-tier One Piece characters both use and have been hit by guns and other much slower attacks, if the shooter is sufficiently skilled.

who, the onlt people ive seen get shot are people below vice- admiral, and usopps enemies, because his sling shot is more efficient than a standard rifle


And One Piece characters consistently take noticeable amounts of time to cover short distances like crossing Thriller Bark or Marineford or so on. It's been central to most story arcs, even.

they use most of their highest speed in bursts. already covered

Originally posted by Luffygear4
not true, luffy dodged a liquid explosion in mid air after he decided to change to gear 2, explosions are like 8,000 m/s and plus he has moved at mach 11.1 in gear third against hody. and he is faster that lightning, greater now than before the timeskip. and is labled massively hypersonic on obd. and kizaru is still lightspeed, no one in naruto can move FTL without terrain manipulation.


Kizaru's lightspeed is a lot like Minato's teleportation- instant point-to-point, but not how they normally move.

OBD does list OP as hypersonic... and they also consider the top-tier Naruto characters faster than OP characters.




And Naruto's high-speed bursts travel longer distances and top out higher than Luffy's 11.1 mach.

More to the point, it'd be multiple bodies doing so at once.

Originally posted by Q99
Kizaru's lightspeed is a lot like Minato's teleportation- instant point-to-point, but not how they normally move.

OBD does list OP as hypersonic... and they also consider the top-tier Naruto characters faster than OP characters.




And Naruto's high-speed bursts travel longer distances and top out higher than Luffy's 11.1 mach.

More to the point, it'd be multiple bodies doing so at once.


but kizaru can use his lightspeed not only with a short charge, but no kunais thrown all over the place

OBD list OP as massively hypersonic, and the mach 11.1 it of gear 3rd luffy stated in animeshowdown website

Originally posted by Luffygear4
but kizaru can use his lightspeed not only with a short charge, but no kunais thrown all over the place

Not sure what you're saying there with the kunais...

On Kizaru, he turns to light and suddenly he's somewhere else via the Yata Mirror, but his reaction speeds are only in the same league as the other top tier fighters.

In that sense, it's not much different than, say, Haku's mirrors.






Yes, and I'm saying Naruto is currently faster than that. And in longer bursts too, Luffy only hits high speed over *very* short distances, or else many chases would be much shorter.

Originally posted by Q99
Not sure what you're saying there with the kunais...

On Kizaru, he turns to light and suddenly he's somewhere else via the Yata Mirror, but his reaction speeds are only in the same league as the other top tier fighters.

In that sense, it's not much different than, say, Haku's mirrors.





Yes, and I'm saying Naruto is currently faster than that. And in longer bursts too, Luffy only hits high speed over *very* short distances, or else many chases would be much shorter.

kizaru doesnt need the reflecting thing, just the charge time, hes definitely faster that haku, you didnt say he was slower, but dont wank. also we have seen him react to explosions and lightspeed out of there. also it seems like in Z chArge is faster.

i really dont know if naruto has speed over OP, nor does ODB state, "narutoverse is faster tan OPverse" give me a link, i never saw it. and luffy isnt even the cream of the crop when it comes to one piece, the only waynaruto will deal with people like enel, doflamingo, kuma, and people in that tier is with the cloak, i he wont get past 2 of them, teleport to volcano, or stop his heart with electricity. nnow when it comes to shanks, dragon, kong, i really dont think he can win, but i ave no proof, nor do i want a speed arguement